All Ireland Championship 2025.

[statto]

How much game time did Blaine Hughes get this year?

I feel that the fortuitous change in GK last year had a huge bearing on Armagh's A-I win, especially in the latter stages - Croke

It gets to the point where you need specialists in all roles, hoping that someone can wing it usually doesn't end well, was disappointed to see Hughes dropped back to backup GK for Championship this year

Hughes played in the league game in Kerry this year and Kerry destroyed his kickouts too.

Hard for any keeper under that pressure Kerry put on Armagh kickout on Sunday and the lads aren't the field aren't giving Rafferty much of a digout. Rafferty contributes heavily out the field and can step out and play as extra defender also.  With his threat from two points I am glad he was the keeper this year.  Galway showed that chopping and changing the keeper can cause its own problems. 

Would have picked Hughes last year in the old game over Rafferty not know though. Rafferty will have been training as a goalkeeper for quite sometime now so think we are abit past the trying to "wing it" stage with him. 

[marty34]

How much game time did Blaine Hughes get this year?

I feel that the fortuitous change in GK last year had a huge bearing on Armagh's A-I win, especially in the latter stages - Croke

It gets to the point where you need specialists in all roles, hoping that someone can wing it usually doesn't end well, was disappointed to see Hughes dropped back to backup GK for Championship this year

Hughes played in the league game in Kerry this year and Kerry destroyed his kickouts too.

Hard for any keeper under that pressure Kerry put on Armagh kickout on Sunday and the lads aren't the field aren't giving Rafferty much of a digout. Rafferty contributes heavily out the field and can step out and play as extra defender also.  With his threat from two points I am glad he was the keeper this year.  Galway showed that chopping and changing the keeper can cause its own problems. 

Would have picked Hughes last year in the old game over Rafferty not know though. Rafferty will have been training as a goalkeeper for quite sometime now so think we are abit past the trying to "wing it" stage with him. 

Keepers get a lot of abuse but it's really a 50/50 process.

1. Their kick must be accurate and 2. The movement of the player out the field must be good.

From what I can see at games, the movement of the players isn't great at imes. It's more of a case of if I don't run here well, the keeper will kick it long and that's easier for me.

Goalkeepers getting bad press with the kickouts.

[DaleCooper]

Makes sense Rafferty was favoured under new regime, was genuinely wondering how much time BH got on field. I understand McGeeney[county managers in general] is not the sentimental type but must be brutally frustrating for the guy.

[bennydorano]

I think on Sunday Kerry did a number on Crealey, he got the treatment, plus I think he gassed easily in the heat. Grimley was just poor. So Rafferty's options weren't great anywhere, but he wasn't good either.

[mackers]

I think on Sunday Kerry did a number on Crealey, he got the treatment, plus I think he gassed easily in the heat. Grimley was just poor. So Rafferty's options weren't great anywhere, but he wasn't good either.

I think Crealey was carrying an injury. He was one of the players rested against Galway. Kerry were ready for our normal plan B of going to Murnin too.

[illdecide]

I think on Sunday Kerry did a number on Crealey, he got the treatment, plus I think he gassed easily in the heat. Grimley was just poor. So Rafferty's options weren't great anywhere, but he wasn't good either.

Our midfield were poor and can hardly remember Crealey touching the ball with Grimley similar, as you say Kerry done their homework on us and done us good and proper. They pushed up and gave Rafferty nothing to hit or aim for so praise must go to Kerry for that, we didn't seem to have the energy to burst a gut to try and get a short one away. Sent back up the road with the tail firmly between the legs

[statto]

I think on Sunday Kerry did a number on Crealey, he got the treatment, plus I think he gassed easily in the heat. Grimley was just poor. So Rafferty's options weren't great anywhere, but he wasn't good either.

Our midfield were poor and can hardly remember Crealey touching the ball with Grimley similar, as you say Kerry done their homework on us and done us good and proper. They pushed up and gave Rafferty nothing to hit or aim for so praise must go to Kerry for that, we didn't seem to have the energy to burst a gut to try and get a short one away. Sent back up the road with the tail firmly between the legs

Grimley kicked a couple of wides that I would have expected him to get in the first half.  Crealey kicked a wide in the second half which I think would have stretched the game out to 6 and would have been a big score after Rian had started to come into the game.  After Crealeys miss was really a flawless 15 minutes from Kerry.   

[general_lee]

The new rules mean kick-outs are probably the most important facet to how a team sets up. More so at club level but teams can get absolutely cleaned out if they can't the ball away. If a team has an aggressive  press, it's hard to hit the pockets and the short kick out is almost impossible. Armagh were 5 pts up at one stage and for most of the match everything was going to plan. 13 minutes of sustained pressure on Armagh kickouts from Kerry turned what was shaping up to be a well earned victory into a borderline embarrassing defeat.

[tiempo]

It was reminiscent of Tyrone's approach with Kerry in 03, outfought and outthought, but Armagh were principally outfought

You can deploy a tactical press all you want but in the end when the ball goes long and up between 2 players with 2 or 3 more waiting for the break its really a question of fire in the belly on that particular day

In recent years the game was far too weighted towards non-contact piggy in the middle dross, the rules have re-introduced a throwback element to the game that was badly missing - its a godsend to have high fielding at MF, breaking ball contents at MF, and shots sailing over from beyond the arc

[pjm]

I think on Sunday Kerry did a number on Crealey, he got the treatment, plus I think he gassed easily in the heat. Grimley was just poor. So Rafferty's options weren't great anywhere, but he wasn't good either.

Our midfield were poor and can hardly remember Crealey touching the ball with Grimley similar, as you say Kerry done their homework on us and done us good and proper. They pushed up and gave Rafferty nothing to hit or aim for so praise must go to Kerry for that, we didn't seem to have the energy to burst a gut to try and get a short one away. Sent back up the road with the tail firmly between the legs

Great point on how Kerry pushed up on the kickout.
I wonder if Jack's tactics were partly impacted by the memory of Dublin's last final victory, when KY looked in complete control but lost due to their concession of the kickout to Dublin (which led to the poor pass from White which was intercepted for the goal). Kerry would likely have won in 2023 if they had kept pressure on the Cluxton kickout.

[Armamike]

Teams need to have a default tactic to go to when they're getting pressed on their kickouts. For every tactic there's a counter tactic.  Teams simply can't afford to get hammered on the kickout like that. Maybe Armagh did have  a tactic (hit it to the wings), and it just wasn't enough on the day. From where i was sitting high up in the Davin, Rafferty didn't have a lot of options to kick to. There wasn't much movement and the spaces were pretty much closed off. Eye of the needle stuff trying to pick out a player to ping it to in those circumstances.  So the only thing was to try and belt it as long as f... up the pitch and hope one of our players could break it or flick it on for a player running into oceans of space.  If a team like Kerry are pushing up, there's going to be space behind - they don't have 17 players on the pitch.  If we had got in behind them just the once, that would have scared them enough to stop pushing up. All ifs and maybes, but the lesson for other teams caught in the same scenario is have a tactic to go to, something that will break the cycle.  It's not the first time this has happened this year, with the effect of the new rules.  I saw Armagh do the same thing in the league match with Dublin.  Only difference was, it was in the first half and Dublin had a chance to regroup at half time.  The timing of Kerry's press was perfect for them - the third quarter when the game was there to be won, and Armagh didn't have the benefit of a half time analysis to figure out what was happening and a chance to regroup.  Plenty of learning there for Tyrone.

[tyrone08]

Teams need to have a default tactic to go to when they're getting pressed on their kickouts. For every tactic there's a counter tactic.  Teams simply can't afford to get hammered on the kickout like that. Maybe Armagh did have  a tactic (hit it to the wings), and it just wasn't enough on the day. From where i was sitting high up in the Davin, Rafferty didn't have a lot of options to kick to. There wasn't much movement and the spaces were pretty much closed off. Eye of the needle stuff trying to pick out a player to ping it to in those circumstances.  So the only thing was to try and belt it as long as f... up the pitch and hope one of our players could break it or flick it on for a player running into oceans of space.  If a team like Kerry are pushing up, there's going to be space behind - they don't have 17 players on the pitch.  If we had got in behind them just the once, that would have scared them enough to stop pushing up. All ifs and maybes, but the lesson for other teams caught in the same scenario is have a tactic to go to, something that will break the cycle.  It's not the first time this has happened this year, with the effect of the new rules.  I saw Armagh do the same thing in the league match with Dublin.  Only difference was, it was in the first half and Dublin had a chance to regroup at half time.  The timing of Kerry's press was perfect for them - the third quarter when the game was there to be won, and Armagh didn't have the benefit of a half time analysis to figure out what was happening and a chance to regroup.  Plenty of learning there for Tyrone.

After 2 or so missed kickouts the default position should have been get it as far away from goal as possible. Long ball down the middle, even a side line ball further down the pitch would have bought them a few extra seconds. Still cant understand how even the keeper didnt think to change it up a bit.

That's the issue with programmed players who couldn't think for themselves and who are overcoached. Tyrone suffered from this problem for the last number of years under Harte.

[clonian]

Teams need to have a default tactic to go to when they're getting pressed on their kickouts. For every tactic there's a counter tactic.  Teams simply can't afford to get hammered on the kickout like that. Maybe Armagh did have  a tactic (hit it to the wings), and it just wasn't enough on the day. From where i was sitting high up in the Davin, Rafferty didn't have a lot of options to kick to. There wasn't much movement and the spaces were pretty much closed off. Eye of the needle stuff trying to pick out a player to ping it to in those circumstances.  So the only thing was to try and belt it as long as f... up the pitch and hope one of our players could break it or flick it on for a player running into oceans of space.  If a team like Kerry are pushing up, there's going to be space behind - they don't have 17 players on the pitch.  If we had got in behind them just the once, that would have scared them enough to stop pushing up. All ifs and maybes, but the lesson for other teams caught in the same scenario is have a tactic to go to, something that will break the cycle.  It's not the first time this has happened this year, with the effect of the new rules.  I saw Armagh do the same thing in the league match with Dublin.  Only difference was, it was in the first half and Dublin had a chance to regroup at half time.  The timing of Kerry's press was perfect for them - the third quarter when the game was there to be won, and Armagh didn't have the benefit of a half time analysis to figure out what was happening and a chance to regroup.  Plenty of learning there for Tyrone.

After 2 or so missed kickouts the default position should have been get it as far away from goal as possible. Long ball down the middle, even a side line ball further down the pitch would have bought them a few extra seconds. Still cant understand how even the keeper didnt think to change it up a bit.

That's the issue with programmed players who couldn't think for themselves and who are overcoached. Tyrone suffered from this problem for the last number of years under Harte.

He did launch one in the 2nd half and Kerry got the break but he probably should've went again. When you're under pressure taking on difficult kicks isn't the right answer but they're coached to go for what seems like the higher % kick to the wing but that doesn't account for human error and really the fact that the Armagh team froze at the time. Similar happened in the 1st game, Galway got a few scores and the Meath keeper put one over the sideline handing the momentum back to Galway at the time. Putting a ball over the sideline at that point gets the crowd going too in that situation.

Years ago the older keepers would just launch a few as far as possible to break the momentum or go down with a groin injury to break the play up. Don't think you can do that anymore - does the keeper have to go off if he's 'down injured'?

[Armamike]

The old momentum breaker was the mystery injury, but that one doesn't get used anymore.

Philly McMahon on the Indo podcast suggested starting a bit of a schmozzle - nothing serious, just a bit of handbags stuff to break the momentum! 

[JoG2]

Boys trying to work out tactics and counter tactics with the long kickouts when the vast majority of the time it'll come down to luck ie one team will get a run on another team = luckily win most of the breaking ball. Do we really think that when a team wins 7 or 8 out of say 10 kickouts in the middle of a close game that they're unearthing something spectacular and the opposition has suddenly nose dived??

Unless teams start in earthing 8ft players or adopting a rugby lineup style lift, this the way it'll be, some games / periods of time you'll win the ball, some you won't. Under 12s know how to get in for a break. The only ways to counter or kind of control this is

*to create more space, split the middle. But both side will be have similar players there, someone will go up for the ball, another trying to win or break and then the worker bee's, again of equal number trying to get the scraps

* go short. But really only if a team stands off you and you've no wind or the wind is at your back

* get the ball as far up the pitch as possible past the h/w line (again only possible with the wind and why winning the toss has never been more important) and get set if the pin ball machine doesn't go in your favour

During the course of a 60 / 70 min game there will be lapses when a player finds space, runs in a kick is hit right into that space. Or an attacker switches off, doesn't split men and one or 2 go short

There will be clean catches too as there has always been, but with so many fit fast, strong athletic players all scrimmaging a small area of the pitch, well, it really is just a roll of the dice alot of the time