Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[illdecide]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

[Evil Genius]

This whole fiasco is a microcosm of what's wrong with the North. Progress delayed by division.
There was an opportunity to have a marquee world leading stadium for all sports that was missed...that was not of the  GAA's making.

One mans "Marquee World Stadium" is anothers "White Elephant".

Let's get back to basic principles. HMG had a huge site which it no longer needed. It hoped that it might attract private development capital - retail, leisure, industry, commerce etc - but none was forthcoming. (I wonder why?)
So they came up with a scheme which would kick-start the process - a multi-sport stadium originally costing £86m(?), which would have the added bonus of "bringing communities together". (Quite how Ulster rugby fans trooping out to a field outside Lisburn on a Friday evening, followed by soccer fans on a Saturday, then GAA fans on Sunday would achieve that is beyond me, but no matter.)

This disregarded three things: 1. None of the three codes was asking for anything like this before someone in Whitehall came up with the idea. 2. The estimated cost soon went up to £140m (and we know how such estimates invariably understate the final cost of such projects). 3. Most importantly, while there was opposition from various Unionists to the whole scheme, it was not the stadium per se, rather it was other aspects of the whole development, chiefly the proposed Museum. And I say "some", because every party on (Unionist-controlled) Lisburn Council supported it, while Edwin Poots was a prominent cheerleader FOR the development. (Guess whose constituency it was in?)

While in any case, the stadium was binned not because of politicians opposition, but because the Civil Servants in the Finance Department at Stormont determined that the stadium could NEVER make money, or even break-even, and so would be a drain on the public purse throughout its entire 50 year(?) lifespan. That much is on the record and indisputable, while it is notable that in all the years since, not one private investor has shown any interest in the site, for any purpose. (Though the RUAS does hold a farm show there for three days a year)

Construction costs have gone up considerably  since £62m proposed in 2011.

And whose fault is that?

Ulster Rugby and the IFA both managed to apply their funding on time and within budget, and if the GAA didn't, it was solely because they chronically mismanaged Casement from the start. Chief amongst their inadequacies was the fact that their proposal(s) failed both to secure Planning Permission in the face of local Residents' opposition meet, or to meet  basic H&S requirements. (This last objection was eventually overridden by a Nationalist DCAL Minister btw).

More pertinently, for its £62m allocation (same as GAA), the IFA decided to use £26m on rebuilding Windsor, then the remaining £36m on renovating smaller, "sub-regional" stadia. (The bulk of this was to go towards The Oval in East Belfast, and the Brandywell in Derry, it being entirely coincidental that the former was in Peter Robinson's Constituency and the latter in Martin McGuinness's). However, Stormont decreed that this secomnd tranche not be released until all three Regional stadia were complete. Meaning the IFA is effectively being punished by construction inflation for the GAA's incompetence. While the GAA is using that inflation to justify a threefold increase in their original funding, but do not recognise any claim by the IFA for similar treatment.

Since 2011 the GAA have incurred considerable costs  and lost revenue opportunities due to delays ( some of which they contributed to)

"Some" of which?
If both the IRFU and IFA could manage to complete their projects satisfactorily, then who else is to blame but the GAA for not managing their own?

I mean, they couldn't even persuade the local residents in Andytown to support what they were doing! 

Neither Kingspan nor Windsor are equipped as the proposed regional marquee Mega concert and conferencing venue. To host major concerts like Croke Park or Aviva does , a large new design is necessary, and the GAA was envisaged to provide this in a new Casement Park .

WRONG!

This money was to come from the Sports Budget at DCAL. That is, for sporting use. And were it to be designed and designated for major Concerts, Events and Conferencing etc, then it would face a number of objections. Amongst these are Planning Permission (again); lack of public transport provision; opposition from existing venues, both publicly-owned and private, with these also liable to being a claim for Unfair Competition. And in principle, why should government money, allocated for sporting purposes, be used by a sports body to make money from non-sporting events? At the very least, any such profits should go back to the government.

Casement park's location in a woefully under resourced and under developed West Belfast , is also a factor as the proposed new stadium would attract new investment, jobs and opportunities for an area that suffered more than most due to the troubles and the 50 years of discrimination that preceded it.

Then why weren't the residents, businesses, community organisations and political representatives all out campaigning and demonstrating in favour of the GAA's various plans then, in order to get it built?

Hell, even Antrim GAA don't appear to be too bothered by this fiasco, at least since they've got over the shock of losing their Social Club.

Anyhow, no-one is objecting to the GAA getting a new stadium at Casement, largely funded by public money. Speaking for myself, I happily accept that the GAA fanbase deserve that, just the same as we've seen with soccer and rugby.

Rather the objections are to the scale and cost of the project, which are FAR in excess of what the GAA reasonably needs. On which point, is there nobody within GAA ranks willing to acknowledge that Ulster GAA's own Events Management Plan itself forecast that there would be only ONE sporting event per year which would be expected to fill a 34k stadium, namely the Senior Ulster Final, which is currently able to held at Clones anyway, and on a VAT-free basis at that?

What would I like to see:

A 28k partially end terraced compact , atmosphere generating venue for Ulster and all-Ireland championship matches , available also for big soccer , rugby and Nfl .

Er, the only games which NI might conceivably be interested in using Casement for would be internationals. And terracing isn't allowed for soccer, meaning your 28k capacity would be reduced to, say 22-24k seating? In which case, why would the IFA pay rent to use Casement for an extra 4-6k seats, away from their traditional home, in a stadium with terrible sightlines for soccer? Never. Going. To. Happen.
And regarding Rugby, Ravenhill is entirely suitable for 90% of Ulster's games as it is, while for the remaining 10%, the IRFU would undoubtedly use the AVIVA, which they part-own.
As for NFL - laughable, simply laughable!

Include it as a concert and conferencing venue with infrastructure to match eg hotel ........ linking in with private sector for funding and enterprise .

Addressed earlier.

A change of attitude from a small number of unionists who to date have been obstructive and gloating over Casements failure.

I've some advice for you, my friend: if the (much) larger number of Unionists don't pay any heed to a few bucketmouths like eg Jamie Bryson, why on earth should the GAA? They're irrelevant to this debate.

Even for unionists surely they can see , that Euros  was a missed opportunity but other opportunities will come around again and their beloved NI still can't host .

The Euro's are nothing to do with "Unionists", it is a purely soccer thing.

And for this soccer fan at least (and not a few others), rather than having an extra £100m(?) coming from Stormont's budget to host five games for which NI might not even qualify, I would much rather see a fraction of that amount devoted eg to providing a much-needed National Football Training Centre, serving the whole of NI. That would provide a much greater legacy for the next 25-50 years than 5 games in June 2028 between the likes of Albania, Norway, Spain or Azerbaijan etc.

Imagine if there  was a venue here to host major world artists and major world sporting events .

"Imagine".

Great idea, you could have John Lennon headlining the opening event.

Oh, wait...

The Irish government will stump up more , and so should the Stormont and Westminster to "level up" investment for NI and west Belfast in particular.

I would be quite happy if Dublin were to stump up the entire £200m(?) shortfall, but as for HMG or Stormont doing so, when our schools, hospitals, roads and other public services are crying out for money?

Sorry.

Your points re German stadiums are well made, surely there's more cost effective budget for this , and the £400m mentioned by some was a figure plucked out of the air to frighten off funders.

True, but it must be for the GAA to come up with a more cost-effective (i.e. realistic) budget, not anyone else.

While yours is the first reference to £400m that I've seen. The more relevant figure is £270m, which has been leaked by the GAA itself.

Let's get it built and actually have something for the whole community here to be proud of . For unionists surely they're envious of every major city in Britain having marquee venues and yet this supposed part of the same uk have nothing even remotely comparable .

This particular Unionist doesn't begrudge the GAA from having the very best stadium they can build from a reasonable amount of Government funding.

And should the finished article not quite meet your dream of providing a world class marquee venue etc, or even a UK class one, then I'll just have to try to find a way of living with that. 

[From the Bunker]

Good to hear some decent points from  Evil Genius.

[lenny]

This whole fiasco is a microcosm of what's wrong with the North. Progress delayed by division.
There was an opportunity to have a marquee world leading stadium for all sports that was missed...that was not of the  GAA's making.

One mans "Marquee World Stadium" is anothers "White Elephant".

Let's get back to basic principles. HMG had a huge site which it no longer needed. It hoped that it might attract private development capital - retail, leisure, industry, commerce etc - but none was forthcoming. (I wonder why?)
So they came up with a scheme which would kick-start the process - a multi-sport stadium originally costing £86m(?), which would have the added bonus of "bringing communities together". (Quite how Ulster rugby fans trooping out to a field outside Lisburn on a Friday evening, followed by soccer fans on a Saturday, then GAA fans on Sunday would achieve that is beyond me, but no matter.)

This disregarded three things: 1. None of the three codes was asking for anything like this before someone in Whitehall came up with the idea. 2. The estimated cost soon went up to £140m (and we know how such estimates invariably understate the final cost of such projects). 3. Most importantly, while there was opposition from various Unionists to the whole scheme, it was not the stadium per se, rather it was other aspects of the whole development, chiefly the proposed Museum. And I say "some", because every party on (Unionist-controlled) Lisburn Council supported it, while Edwin Poots was a prominent cheerleader FOR the development. (Guess whose constituency it was in?)

While in any case, the stadium was binned not because of politicians opposition, but because the Civil Servants in the Finance Department at Stormont determined that the stadium could NEVER make money, or even break-even, and so would be a drain on the public purse throughout its entire 50 year(?) lifespan. That much is on the record and indisputable, while it is notable that in all the years since, not one private investor has shown any interest in the site, for any purpose. (Though the RUAS does hold a farm show there for three days a year)

Construction costs have gone up considerably  since £62m proposed in 2011.

And whose fault is that?

Ulster Rugby and the IFA both managed to apply their funding on time and within budget, and if the GAA didn't, it was solely because they chronically mismanaged Casement from the start. Chief amongst their inadequacies was the fact that their proposal(s) failed both to secure Planning Permission in the face of local Residents' opposition meet, or to meet  basic H&S requirements. (This last objection was eventually overridden by a Nationalist DCAL Minister btw).

More pertinently, for its £62m allocation (same as GAA), the IFA decided to use £26m on rebuilding Windsor, then the remaining £36m on renovating smaller, "sub-regional" stadia. (The bulk of this was to go towards The Oval in East Belfast, and the Brandywell in Derry, it being entirely coincidental that the former was in Peter Robinson's Constituency and the latter in Martin McGuinness's). However, Stormont decreed that this secomnd tranche not be released until all three Regional stadia were complete. Meaning the IFA is effectively being punished by construction inflation for the GAA's incompetence. While the GAA is using that inflation to justify a threefold increase in their original funding, but do not recognise any claim by the IFA for similar treatment.

Since 2011 the GAA have incurred considerable costs  and lost revenue opportunities due to delays ( some of which they contributed to)

"Some" of which?
If both the IRFU and IFA could manage to complete their projects satisfactorily, then who else is to blame but the GAA for not managing their own?

I mean, they couldn't even persuade the local residents in Andytown to support what they were doing! 

Neither Kingspan nor Windsor are equipped as the proposed regional marquee Mega concert and conferencing venue. To host major concerts like Croke Park or Aviva does , a large new design is necessary, and the GAA was envisaged to provide this in a new Casement Park .

WRONG!

This money was to come from the Sports Budget at DCAL. That is, for sporting use. And were it to be designed and designated for major Concerts, Events and Conferencing etc, then it would face a number of objections. Amongst these are Planning Permission (again); lack of public transport provision; opposition from existing venues, both publicly-owned and private, with these also liable to being a claim for Unfair Competition. And in principle, why should government money, allocated for sporting purposes, be used by a sports body to make money from non-sporting events? At the very least, any such profits should go back to the government.

Casement park's location in a woefully under resourced and under developed West Belfast , is also a factor as the proposed new stadium would attract new investment, jobs and opportunities for an area that suffered more than most due to the troubles and the 50 years of discrimination that preceded it.

Then why weren't the residents, businesses, community organisations and political representatives all out campaigning and demonstrating in favour of the GAA's various plans then, in order to get it built?

Hell, even Antrim GAA don't appear to be too bothered by this fiasco, at least since they've got over the shock of losing their Social Club.

Anyhow, no-one is objecting to the GAA getting a new stadium at Casement, largely funded by public money. Speaking for myself, I happily accept that the GAA fanbase deserve that, just the same as we've seen with soccer and rugby.

Rather the objections are to the scale and cost of the project, which are FAR in excess of what the GAA reasonably needs. On which point, is there nobody within GAA ranks willing to acknowledge that Ulster GAA's own Events Management Plan itself forecast that there would be only ONE sporting event per year which would be expected to fill a 34k stadium, namely the Senior Ulster Final, which is currently able to held at Clones anyway, and on a VAT-free basis at that?

What would I like to see:

A 28k partially end terraced compact , atmosphere generating venue for Ulster and all-Ireland championship matches , available also for big soccer , rugby and Nfl .

Er, the only games which NI might conceivably be interested in using Casement for would be internationals. And terracing isn't allowed for soccer, meaning your 28k capacity would be reduced to, say 22-24k seating? In which case, why would the IFA pay rent to use Casement for an extra 4-6k seats, away from their traditional home, in a stadium with terrible sightlines for soccer? Never. Going. To. Happen.
And regarding Rugby, Ravenhill is entirely suitable for 90% of Ulster's games as it is, while for the remaining 10%, the IRFU would undoubtedly use the AVIVA, which they part-own.
As for NFL - laughable, simply laughable!

Include it as a concert and conferencing venue with infrastructure to match eg hotel ........ linking in with private sector for funding and enterprise .

Addressed earlier.

A change of attitude from a small number of unionists who to date have been obstructive and gloating over Casements failure.

I've some advice for you, my friend: if the (much) larger number of Unionists don't pay any heed to a few bucketmouths like eg Jamie Bryson, why on earth should the GAA? They're irrelevant to this debate.

Even for unionists surely they can see , that Euros  was a missed opportunity but other opportunities will come around again and their beloved NI still can't host .

The Euro's are nothing to do with "Unionists", it is a purely soccer thing.

And for this soccer fan at least (and not a few others), rather than having an extra £100m(?) coming from Stormont's budget to host five games for which NI might not even qualify, I would much rather see a fraction of that amount devoted eg to providing a much-needed National Football Training Centre, serving the whole of NI. That would provide a much greater legacy for the next 25-50 years than 5 games in June 2028 between the likes of Albania, Norway, Spain or Azerbaijan etc.

Imagine if there  was a venue here to host major world artists and major world sporting events .

"Imagine".

Great idea, you could have John Lennon headlining the opening event.

Oh, wait...

The Irish government will stump up more , and so should the Stormont and Westminster to "level up" investment for NI and west Belfast in particular.

I would be quite happy if Dublin were to stump up the entire £200m(?) shortfall, but as for HMG or Stormont doing so, when our schools, hospitals, roads and other public services are crying out for money?

Sorry.

Your points re German stadiums are well made, surely there's more cost effective budget for this , and the £400m mentioned by some was a figure plucked out of the air to frighten off funders.

True, but it must be for the GAA to come up with a more cost-effective (i.e. realistic) budget, not anyone else.

While yours is the first reference to £400m that I've seen. The more relevant figure is £270m, which has been leaked by the GAA itself.

Let's get it built and actually have something for the whole community here to be proud of . For unionists surely they're envious of every major city in Britain having marquee venues and yet this supposed part of the same uk have nothing even remotely comparable .

This particular Unionist doesn't begrudge the GAA from having the very best stadium they can build from a reasonable amount of Government funding.

And should the finished article not quite meet your dream of providing a world class marquee venue etc, or even a UK class one, then I'll just have to try to find a way of living with that. 

Unionists keep going on about equal funding for the 3 main sports. That seems fair. Around NI there are hundreds of council pitches devoted to soccer and rugby, mainly soccer. How many council GAA pitches are there in NI - I would guess not more than 10. Every GAA club in the north has their own pitch and grounds all paid for through their own fundraising not costing the public purse a penny. They maintain these pitches and grounds themselves not costing the public purse a penny. So if unionists demand equal funding then it should be equal for council pitches also. So therefore build another few hundred council GAA pitches or possibly sell off a few hundred soccer pitches which should go a long way to helping our health service and public services.

[Franko]

This whole fiasco is a microcosm of what's wrong with the North. Progress delayed by division.
There was an opportunity to have a marquee world leading stadium for all sports that was missed...that was not of the  GAA's making.

One mans "Marquee World Stadium" is anothers "White Elephant".

Let's get back to basic principles. HMG had a huge site which it no longer needed. It hoped that it might attract private development capital - retail, leisure, industry, commerce etc - but none was forthcoming. (I wonder why?)
So they came up with a scheme which would kick-start the process - a multi-sport stadium originally costing £86m(?), which would have the added bonus of "bringing communities together". (Quite how Ulster rugby fans trooping out to a field outside Lisburn on a Friday evening, followed by soccer fans on a Saturday, then GAA fans on Sunday would achieve that is beyond me, but no matter.)

This disregarded three things: 1. None of the three codes was asking for anything like this before someone in Whitehall came up with the idea. 2. The estimated cost soon went up to £140m (and we know how such estimates invariably understate the final cost of such projects). 3. Most importantly, while there was opposition from various Unionists to the whole scheme, it was not the stadium per se, rather it was other aspects of the whole development, chiefly the proposed Museum. And I say "some", because every party on (Unionist-controlled) Lisburn Council supported it, while Edwin Poots was a prominent cheerleader FOR the development. (Guess whose constituency it was in?)

While in any case, the stadium was binned not because of politicians opposition, but because the Civil Servants in the Finance Department at Stormont determined that the stadium could NEVER make money, or even break-even, and so would be a drain on the public purse throughout its entire 50 year(?) lifespan. That much is on the record and indisputable, while it is notable that in all the years since, not one private investor has shown any interest in the site, for any purpose. (Though the RUAS does hold a farm show there for three days a year)

Construction costs have gone up considerably  since £62m proposed in 2011.

And whose fault is that?

Ulster Rugby and the IFA both managed to apply their funding on time and within budget, and if the GAA didn't, it was solely because they chronically mismanaged Casement from the start. Chief amongst their inadequacies was the fact that their proposal(s) failed both to secure Planning Permission in the face of local Residents' opposition meet, or to meet  basic H&S requirements. (This last objection was eventually overridden by a Nationalist DCAL Minister btw).

More pertinently, for its £62m allocation (same as GAA), the IFA decided to use £26m on rebuilding Windsor, then the remaining £36m on renovating smaller, "sub-regional" stadia. (The bulk of this was to go towards The Oval in East Belfast, and the Brandywell in Derry, it being entirely coincidental that the former was in Peter Robinson's Constituency and the latter in Martin McGuinness's). However, Stormont decreed that this secomnd tranche not be released until all three Regional stadia were complete. Meaning the IFA is effectively being punished by construction inflation for the GAA's incompetence. While the GAA is using that inflation to justify a threefold increase in their original funding, but do not recognise any claim by the IFA for similar treatment.

Since 2011 the GAA have incurred considerable costs  and lost revenue opportunities due to delays ( some of which they contributed to)

"Some" of which?
If both the IRFU and IFA could manage to complete their projects satisfactorily, then who else is to blame but the GAA for not managing their own?

I mean, they couldn't even persuade the local residents in Andytown to support what they were doing! 

Neither Kingspan nor Windsor are equipped as the proposed regional marquee Mega concert and conferencing venue. To host major concerts like Croke Park or Aviva does , a large new design is necessary, and the GAA was envisaged to provide this in a new Casement Park .

WRONG!

This money was to come from the Sports Budget at DCAL. That is, for sporting use. And were it to be designed and designated for major Concerts, Events and Conferencing etc, then it would face a number of objections. Amongst these are Planning Permission (again); lack of public transport provision; opposition from existing venues, both publicly-owned and private, with these also liable to being a claim for Unfair Competition. And in principle, why should government money, allocated for sporting purposes, be used by a sports body to make money from non-sporting events? At the very least, any such profits should go back to the government.

Casement park's location in a woefully under resourced and under developed West Belfast , is also a factor as the proposed new stadium would attract new investment, jobs and opportunities for an area that suffered more than most due to the troubles and the 50 years of discrimination that preceded it.

Then why weren't the residents, businesses, community organisations and political representatives all out campaigning and demonstrating in favour of the GAA's various plans then, in order to get it built?

Hell, even Antrim GAA don't appear to be too bothered by this fiasco, at least since they've got over the shock of losing their Social Club.

Anyhow, no-one is objecting to the GAA getting a new stadium at Casement, largely funded by public money. Speaking for myself, I happily accept that the GAA fanbase deserve that, just the same as we've seen with soccer and rugby.

Rather the objections are to the scale and cost of the project, which are FAR in excess of what the GAA reasonably needs. On which point, is there nobody within GAA ranks willing to acknowledge that Ulster GAA's own Events Management Plan itself forecast that there would be only ONE sporting event per year which would be expected to fill a 34k stadium, namely the Senior Ulster Final, which is currently able to held at Clones anyway, and on a VAT-free basis at that?

What would I like to see:

A 28k partially end terraced compact , atmosphere generating venue for Ulster and all-Ireland championship matches , available also for big soccer , rugby and Nfl .

Er, the only games which NI might conceivably be interested in using Casement for would be internationals. And terracing isn't allowed for soccer, meaning your 28k capacity would be reduced to, say 22-24k seating? In which case, why would the IFA pay rent to use Casement for an extra 4-6k seats, away from their traditional home, in a stadium with terrible sightlines for soccer? Never. Going. To. Happen.
And regarding Rugby, Ravenhill is entirely suitable for 90% of Ulster's games as it is, while for the remaining 10%, the IRFU would undoubtedly use the AVIVA, which they part-own.
As for NFL - laughable, simply laughable!

Include it as a concert and conferencing venue with infrastructure to match eg hotel ........ linking in with private sector for funding and enterprise .

Addressed earlier.

A change of attitude from a small number of unionists who to date have been obstructive and gloating over Casements failure.

I've some advice for you, my friend: if the (much) larger number of Unionists don't pay any heed to a few bucketmouths like eg Jamie Bryson, why on earth should the GAA? They're irrelevant to this debate.

Even for unionists surely they can see , that Euros  was a missed opportunity but other opportunities will come around again and their beloved NI still can't host .

The Euro's are nothing to do with "Unionists", it is a purely soccer thing.

And for this soccer fan at least (and not a few others), rather than having an extra £100m(?) coming from Stormont's budget to host five games for which NI might not even qualify, I would much rather see a fraction of that amount devoted eg to providing a much-needed National Football Training Centre, serving the whole of NI. That would provide a much greater legacy for the next 25-50 years than 5 games in June 2028 between the likes of Albania, Norway, Spain or Azerbaijan etc.

Imagine if there  was a venue here to host major world artists and major world sporting events .

"Imagine".

Great idea, you could have John Lennon headlining the opening event.

Oh, wait...

The Irish government will stump up more , and so should the Stormont and Westminster to "level up" investment for NI and west Belfast in particular.

I would be quite happy if Dublin were to stump up the entire £200m(?) shortfall, but as for HMG or Stormont doing so, when our schools, hospitals, roads and other public services are crying out for money?

Sorry.

Your points re German stadiums are well made, surely there's more cost effective budget for this , and the £400m mentioned by some was a figure plucked out of the air to frighten off funders.

True, but it must be for the GAA to come up with a more cost-effective (i.e. realistic) budget, not anyone else.

While yours is the first reference to £400m that I've seen. The more relevant figure is £270m, which has been leaked by the GAA itself.

Let's get it built and actually have something for the whole community here to be proud of . For unionists surely they're envious of every major city in Britain having marquee venues and yet this supposed part of the same uk have nothing even remotely comparable .

This particular Unionist doesn't begrudge the GAA from having the very best stadium they can build from a reasonable amount of Government funding.

And should the finished article not quite meet your dream of providing a world class marquee venue etc, or even a UK class one, then I'll just have to try to find a way of living with that. 

Unionists keep going on about equal funding for the 3 main sports. That seems fair. Around NI there are hundreds of council pitches devoted to soccer and rugby, mainly soccer. How many council GAA pitches are there in NI - I would guess not more than 10. Every GAA club in the north has their own pitch and grounds all paid for through their own fundraising not costing the public purse a penny. They maintain these pitches and grounds themselves not costing the public purse a penny. So if unionists demand equal funding then it should be equal for council pitches also. So therefore build another few hundred council GAA pitches or possibly sell off a few hundred soccer pitches which should go a long way to helping our health service and public services.

When the likes of EG discuss equality, it always comes with the silent caveat that past inequalities must be ignored and not accounted for

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

It's a lot to do with it being the GAA's fault as well though.
If Dundonald Ice Bowl made a cnut of the project and came back asking for £180m, you would be saying they should take a walk. We all know that.

[lenny]

This whole fiasco is a microcosm of what's wrong with the North. Progress delayed by division.
There was an opportunity to have a marquee world leading stadium for all sports that was missed...that was not of the  GAA's making.

One mans "Marquee World Stadium" is anothers "White Elephant".

Let's get back to basic principles. HMG had a huge site which it no longer needed. It hoped that it might attract private development capital - retail, leisure, industry, commerce etc - but none was forthcoming. (I wonder why?)
So they came up with a scheme which would kick-start the process - a multi-sport stadium originally costing £86m(?), which would have the added bonus of "bringing communities together". (Quite how Ulster rugby fans trooping out to a field outside Lisburn on a Friday evening, followed by soccer fans on a Saturday, then GAA fans on Sunday would achieve that is beyond me, but no matter.)

This disregarded three things: 1. None of the three codes was asking for anything like this before someone in Whitehall came up with the idea. 2. The estimated cost soon went up to £140m (and we know how such estimates invariably understate the final cost of such projects). 3. Most importantly, while there was opposition from various Unionists to the whole scheme, it was not the stadium per se, rather it was other aspects of the whole development, chiefly the proposed Museum. And I say "some", because every party on (Unionist-controlled) Lisburn Council supported it, while Edwin Poots was a prominent cheerleader FOR the development. (Guess whose constituency it was in?)

While in any case, the stadium was binned not because of politicians opposition, but because the Civil Servants in the Finance Department at Stormont determined that the stadium could NEVER make money, or even break-even, and so would be a drain on the public purse throughout its entire 50 year(?) lifespan. That much is on the record and indisputable, while it is notable that in all the years since, not one private investor has shown any interest in the site, for any purpose. (Though the RUAS does hold a farm show there for three days a year)

Construction costs have gone up considerably  since £62m proposed in 2011.

And whose fault is that?

Ulster Rugby and the IFA both managed to apply their funding on time and within budget, and if the GAA didn't, it was solely because they chronically mismanaged Casement from the start. Chief amongst their inadequacies was the fact that their proposal(s) failed both to secure Planning Permission in the face of local Residents' opposition meet, or to meet  basic H&S requirements. (This last objection was eventually overridden by a Nationalist DCAL Minister btw).

More pertinently, for its £62m allocation (same as GAA), the IFA decided to use £26m on rebuilding Windsor, then the remaining £36m on renovating smaller, "sub-regional" stadia. (The bulk of this was to go towards The Oval in East Belfast, and the Brandywell in Derry, it being entirely coincidental that the former was in Peter Robinson's Constituency and the latter in Martin McGuinness's). However, Stormont decreed that this secomnd tranche not be released until all three Regional stadia were complete. Meaning the IFA is effectively being punished by construction inflation for the GAA's incompetence. While the GAA is using that inflation to justify a threefold increase in their original funding, but do not recognise any claim by the IFA for similar treatment.

Since 2011 the GAA have incurred considerable costs  and lost revenue opportunities due to delays ( some of which they contributed to)

"Some" of which?
If both the IRFU and IFA could manage to complete their projects satisfactorily, then who else is to blame but the GAA for not managing their own?

I mean, they couldn't even persuade the local residents in Andytown to support what they were doing! 

Neither Kingspan nor Windsor are equipped as the proposed regional marquee Mega concert and conferencing venue. To host major concerts like Croke Park or Aviva does , a large new design is necessary, and the GAA was envisaged to provide this in a new Casement Park .

WRONG!

This money was to come from the Sports Budget at DCAL. That is, for sporting use. And were it to be designed and designated for major Concerts, Events and Conferencing etc, then it would face a number of objections. Amongst these are Planning Permission (again); lack of public transport provision; opposition from existing venues, both publicly-owned and private, with these also liable to being a claim for Unfair Competition. And in principle, why should government money, allocated for sporting purposes, be used by a sports body to make money from non-sporting events? At the very least, any such profits should go back to the government.

Casement park's location in a woefully under resourced and under developed West Belfast , is also a factor as the proposed new stadium would attract new investment, jobs and opportunities for an area that suffered more than most due to the troubles and the 50 years of discrimination that preceded it.

Then why weren't the residents, businesses, community organisations and political representatives all out campaigning and demonstrating in favour of the GAA's various plans then, in order to get it built?

Hell, even Antrim GAA don't appear to be too bothered by this fiasco, at least since they've got over the shock of losing their Social Club.

Anyhow, no-one is objecting to the GAA getting a new stadium at Casement, largely funded by public money. Speaking for myself, I happily accept that the GAA fanbase deserve that, just the same as we've seen with soccer and rugby.

Rather the objections are to the scale and cost of the project, which are FAR in excess of what the GAA reasonably needs. On which point, is there nobody within GAA ranks willing to acknowledge that Ulster GAA's own Events Management Plan itself forecast that there would be only ONE sporting event per year which would be expected to fill a 34k stadium, namely the Senior Ulster Final, which is currently able to held at Clones anyway, and on a VAT-free basis at that?

What would I like to see:

A 28k partially end terraced compact , atmosphere generating venue for Ulster and all-Ireland championship matches , available also for big soccer , rugby and Nfl .

Er, the only games which NI might conceivably be interested in using Casement for would be internationals. And terracing isn't allowed for soccer, meaning your 28k capacity would be reduced to, say 22-24k seating? In which case, why would the IFA pay rent to use Casement for an extra 4-6k seats, away from their traditional home, in a stadium with terrible sightlines for soccer? Never. Going. To. Happen.
And regarding Rugby, Ravenhill is entirely suitable for 90% of Ulster's games as it is, while for the remaining 10%, the IRFU would undoubtedly use the AVIVA, which they part-own.
As for NFL - laughable, simply laughable!

Include it as a concert and conferencing venue with infrastructure to match eg hotel ........ linking in with private sector for funding and enterprise .

Addressed earlier.

A change of attitude from a small number of unionists who to date have been obstructive and gloating over Casements failure.

I've some advice for you, my friend: if the (much) larger number of Unionists don't pay any heed to a few bucketmouths like eg Jamie Bryson, why on earth should the GAA? They're irrelevant to this debate.

Even for unionists surely they can see , that Euros  was a missed opportunity but other opportunities will come around again and their beloved NI still can't host .

The Euro's are nothing to do with "Unionists", it is a purely soccer thing.

And for this soccer fan at least (and not a few others), rather than having an extra £100m(?) coming from Stormont's budget to host five games for which NI might not even qualify, I would much rather see a fraction of that amount devoted eg to providing a much-needed National Football Training Centre, serving the whole of NI. That would provide a much greater legacy for the next 25-50 years than 5 games in June 2028 between the likes of Albania, Norway, Spain or Azerbaijan etc.

Imagine if there  was a venue here to host major world artists and major world sporting events .

"Imagine".

Great idea, you could have John Lennon headlining the opening event.

Oh, wait...

The Irish government will stump up more , and so should the Stormont and Westminster to "level up" investment for NI and west Belfast in particular.

I would be quite happy if Dublin were to stump up the entire £200m(?) shortfall, but as for HMG or Stormont doing so, when our schools, hospitals, roads and other public services are crying out for money?

Sorry.

Your points re German stadiums are well made, surely there's more cost effective budget for this , and the £400m mentioned by some was a figure plucked out of the air to frighten off funders.

True, but it must be for the GAA to come up with a more cost-effective (i.e. realistic) budget, not anyone else.

While yours is the first reference to £400m that I've seen. The more relevant figure is £270m, which has been leaked by the GAA itself.

Let's get it built and actually have something for the whole community here to be proud of . For unionists surely they're envious of every major city in Britain having marquee venues and yet this supposed part of the same uk have nothing even remotely comparable .

This particular Unionist doesn't begrudge the GAA from having the very best stadium they can build from a reasonable amount of Government funding.

And should the finished article not quite meet your dream of providing a world class marquee venue etc, or even a UK class one, then I'll just have to try to find a way of living with that. 

Unionists keep going on about equal funding for the 3 main sports. That seems fair. Around NI there are hundreds of council pitches devoted to soccer and rugby, mainly soccer. How many council GAA pitches are there in NI - I would guess not more than 10. Every GAA club in the north has their own pitch and grounds all paid for through their own fundraising not costing the public purse a penny. They maintain these pitches and grounds themselves not costing the public purse a penny. So if unionists demand equal funding then it should be equal for council pitches also. So therefore build another few hundred council GAA pitches or possibly sell off a few hundred soccer pitches which should go a long way to helping our health service and public services.

When the likes of EG discuss equality, it always comes with the silent caveat that past inequalities must be ignored and not accounted for

Exactly.

[Evil Genius]

Unionists keep going on about equal funding for the 3 main sports. That seems fair. Around NI there are hundreds of council pitches devoted to soccer and rugby, mainly soccer. How many council GAA pitches are there in NI - I would guess not more than 10. Every GAA club in the north has their own pitch and grounds all paid for through their own fundraising not costing the public purse a penny. They maintain these pitches and grounds themselves not costing the public purse a penny. So if unionists demand equal funding then it should be equal for council pitches also. So therefore build another few hundred council GAA pitches or possibly sell off a few hundred soccer pitches which should go a long way to helping our health service and public services.

Er, we're talking about the Regional Sports Stadium strategy here, not sports funding generally.

On which former point, it has been agreed throughout all this process, by ALL the parties at Stormont, including when the Sports Minister was from SF or SDLP, that the Maze Stadium money should be allocated £20m to rugby, £62m to soccer and £62m to GAA.

Meanwhile on your more general point, the long and widely accepted principle is that if public money is going to facilities like this, then they should be equally open to all sports/sections of the public.

But as you will know, when the GAA builds its own facilities - and I readily applaud their endeavour and energy in doing so - their usage is confined to GAA sports only. Now of course this must be their right, but asserting such rights brings with it consequences, in this case disqualification from some general sports facilities funding.

I say "some", of course, since GAA clubs are (quite rightly) entitled to apply for other sources of funding - culture, youth, leisure, community etc - as many successfully do.

An example of this was when a well-known GAA-playing Catholic Grammar school near me was building new sports fields, the majority of provision was for GAA pitches, but they also provided some soccer pitches which can be used at weekends etc, and so qualified for full funding from the Dept. of Education.

But you might have worked all that out yourself, had you taken the trouble to apply even a modicum of thought to the issues before posting.

[Evil Genius]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

Re your bold, what exactly was it stopped the GAA from building a new Casement at the same time as rugby and soccer?

(Clue: Rank incompetence and vanity on the part of the GAA?)

[Evil Genius]

When the likes of EG discuss equality, it always comes with the silent caveat that past inequalities must be ignored and not accounted for

Exactly.

Er, as I noted earlier, when the Maze Stadium money was devolved from Westminster to be reallocated by Stormont, all of the parties there agreed that the final distribution was fair and equal.

While the three bodies concerned, IRFU, IFA and GAA, were all satisfied too.

May I take it that you have voiced your concerns to them? No?

For it cannot be that there hasn't been enough time yet for you to make your point before now.

I mean, over the course of 15 years+, you could probably, oh I dunno, build eg a bloody great sports stadium in that time. 

 

[illdecide]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

It's a lot to do with it being the GAA's fault as well though.
If Dundonald Ice Bowl made a cnut of the project and came back asking for £180m, you would be saying they should take a walk. We all know that.

Yeah, I prob would but my point is the Ice Bowl would still be built at any cost after it was promised and where it is. However, a GAA Stadium in West Belfast is a different matter

[Franko]

When the likes of EG discuss equality, it always comes with the silent caveat that past inequalities must be ignored and not accounted for

Exactly.

Er, as I noted earlier, when the Maze Stadium money was devolved from Westminster to be reallocated by Stormont, all of the parties there agreed that the final distribution was fair and equal.

While the three bodies concerned, IRFU, IFA and GAA, were all satisfied too.

May I take it that you have voiced your concerns to them? No?

For it cannot be that there hasn't been enough time yet for you to make your point before now.

I mean, over the course of 15 years+, you could probably, oh I dunno, build eg a bloody great sports stadium in that time. 

 

And for my latest trick, I'll get EG to reply to me and demonstrate the EXACT behaviour I was discussing     

[illdecide]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

Re your bold, what exactly was it stopped the GAA from building a new Casement at the same time as rugby and soccer?

(Clue: Rank incompetence and vanity on the part of the GAA?)

Do you have the expertise in this process?. You are speculating in a lot of your comments and TBH it would take up most of my time to nit pick thru it all, I'll give you your dues you put a lot of time and effort into your responses so fair play but a lot of your info is just hearsay...
Yes, the GAA didn't cover themselves on glory over Casement but it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI), Planning Dept, local objections etc. There were so many stumbling blocks from day 1 and I accept the GAA should have done their homework better but it wasn't just all them.
You think that the Antrim GAA are not too bothered about having no stadium?. Yeah, dead on EG.
One big factor you missed out on was IFA and NI Soccer fans would not share a stadium with the GAA.
You say you're not objecting to the GAA having a funded stadium yet you go on and say not the size of the proposed one just a smaller one will do, why shouldn't the Country's largest played sport have the largest stadium. We have been discriminated against for decades, where I live we have 6 GAA clubs within a 3 mile radius and not one Council GAA pitch. I actually done a few CAD Dwgs for a proposed Council GAA pitch and it was ignored and turned from a soccer pitch to a cricket pitch/pavilion.
The money offered is from DCAL but (IMO) you're wrong about the concerts, any Entertainment building or stadium can host an event as long as they get approval from local council and emergency services. They will also liaise with the local residents but it's not a feature you include at planning, its a sports stadium. Sin e
Schools, Hospitals and infrastructure are different departments and will have their own budgets, if they're short they need to go back and get more. I'll happily (if it was my decision) give all the funding up for Casement for a better Health Service and Roads, the real important stuff providing you stop funding for all projects and I mean everything except Health, Hospitals, Infrastructure and Schools but we all know that can't happen.
I went on for ages that the fee was closer to £300m for Casement but all I could hear was it's £400m and that was pure speculation from the Unionists & British Government to renege on their promise that the stadium would be built.

[Sportacus]

The GAA put the cart before the horse massively.
1. They arrogantly thought the residents would be swept aside and Sinn Fein would fix any problems.
2. They were out of their depth professionally and had no answer when the health and safety issues were raised.
3. They don't seem to understand political leverage.  Only this week they are talking big about "seeing the colour" of the British governments money.  In what world will an untrustworthy British government who have just wheeled out a crushing Budget, do any favours or be pressured by the GAA?

It's just been amateur hour from the start unfortunately.  It needs taken out of the hands of Ulster GAA, get on with it by cutting the cloth according to whatever money is in the kitty, and give it back to Antrim GAA.

[armaghniac]

The GAA put the cart before the horse massively.
1. They arrogantly thought the residents would be swept aside and Sinn Fein would fix any problems.
2. They were out of their depth professionally and had no answer when the health and safety issues were raised.
3. They don't seem to understand political leverage.  Only this week they are talking big about "seeing the colour" of the British governments money.  In what world will an untrustworthy British government who have just wheeled out a crushing Budget, do any favours or be pressured by the GAA?

It's just been amateur hour from the start unfortunately.  It needs taken out of the hands of Ulster GAA, get on with it by cutting the cloth according to whatever money is in the kitty, and give it back to Antrim GAA.

There are people in the GAA community with good engineering expertise and getting things done, but these people were not involved in the project. The GAA should have expected opposition, what else have they ever got in Belfast?