Ulster Club IFC and JFC 2024

[Dreadnought]

Derry had 12 teams in the Senior Championship, 12 in the Intermediate and 13 in Junior. I would say that's fairly balanced. The bottom teams in Intermediate championship were better than Craigbane based on last year's performances. I think you're getting in way too deep on this. Derry is still in the process of separating the leagues from the Championship so not everything is going to be perfect, but it's not too bad the way it is.

Similar here. 12, 14, and 12. Junior used to have 14 but 2 clubs pulled out to player Junior Shield this year.

[Armagh18]

I've said it previously on here and generally got slammed for it! But I don't actually think provincial and All Ireland Junior and Intermediate competitions are even close to being fit for purpose. There are just way too many inconsistencies and anomalies in the makeup of teams at these levels, county by county, for the competitions to really make any deliberate sense.

They're not, but they're good fun overall and generally are consistent enough. An odd anomaly happens (my own club temporarily dropped to Intermediate in 2018 after a very bad year at Senior with injury/emigration, won Intermediate, got to Ulster final) and always will. But usually it's fine and overall consistent enough. These things are never straight lines

I'd do some surgery on them to not have too much of a discrepancy. Like what happens in Kerry, where the intermediate team is the 9th best in the county. That's way too strong that others who could be anywhere from 11th to 17th best. Stipulate the % of what is Senior, Intermediate, and Junior in your county. Otherwise, anomalies will always happen. Some strong teams have a terrible year with injury etc and get caught out. Can't really legislate for that

Same with Cullyhanna, deservedly relegated then got their act together and won an intermediate AI.

That's always a possibility with rural clubs, lose 5 or 6 players through injury/emigration etc can make a huge difference.

[general_lee]

I've said it previously on here and generally got slammed for it! But I don't actually think provincial and All Ireland Junior and Intermediate competitions are even close to being fit for purpose. There are just way too many inconsistencies and anomalies in the makeup of teams at these levels, county by county, for the competitions to really make any deliberate sense.

They're not, but they're good fun overall and generally are consistent enough. An odd anomaly happens (my own club temporarily dropped to Intermediate in 2018 after a very bad year at Senior with injury/emigration, won Intermediate, got to Ulster final) and always will. But usually it's fine and overall consistent enough. These things are never straight lines

I'd do some surgery on them to not have too much of a discrepancy. Like what happens in Kerry, where the intermediate team is the 9th best in the county. That's way too strong that others who could be anywhere from 11th to 17th best. Stipulate the % of what is Senior, Intermediate, and Junior in your county. Otherwise, anomalies will always happen. Some strong teams have a terrible year with injury etc and get caught out. Can't really legislate for that

Same with Cullyhanna, deservedly relegated then got their act together and won an intermediate AI.

That's always a possibility with rural clubs, lose 5 or 6 players through injury/emigration etc can make a huge difference.

Yes and converse to that sometimes teams do get their act together, they play to their potential and end up rapidly moving up through the leagues. To keep them playing Junior football isn't fair on actual junior clubs.

[oakleaflad]

Oxymoron aside, you've disregarded my argument all along (league/championship alignment). Nothing beats winning a championship with your club, but if your club is capable of competing against Senior clubs, would you not actually rather play senior?

I've not disregarded your argument, I just pointed out that you made up your own question and answered it and pretended it was the one I posed.

There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team - which was the whole point of this now long running argument.

There's even less to suggest they're a junior team. Actual junior teams like Collegeland, Dromara, Dromhowan etc are at a disadvantage when they come up against the likes of Division 1 Cavan teams and Division 2 Derry and Donegal teams masquerading as junior clubs. Not really a level playing field at all.

Sure, you might ask them if they'd rather play Senior Championship or League and they'd say yes. But are they good enough for that? They just showed why they were Junior for 15 years by bowing out of Ulster pretty meekly

They lost by 3 points to Craigbane, who are for all intents and purposes a mainstay of intermediate football in Derry - another county that has starting taking the piss. They're even worse in the hurling.

The point being that just putting them to Senior now based on League would have them hockeyed. And thrashings at Senior level this year or a Junior title? Which would be more memorable?

Nobody is advocating shoe-horning teams into senior but if they're good enough to play the best clubs in Cavan in competitive league football then they're not really a junior team, are they?

This is nonsense. They've played Junior 4 of the last 5 seasons and got relegated the one year they were in Intermediate.

All their Intermediate success was well over a decade ago.
 
They are a small rural club who've actually performed extremely well in Ulster so far as they've been missing a few first team players.

[DownFanatic]

Just looking there. Craigbane must have a very small catchment area? Banagher to the East, Claudy to the North, Tyrone to the West and mountains to the South.

[general_lee]

Oxymoron aside, you've disregarded my argument all along (league/championship alignment). Nothing beats winning a championship with your club, but if your club is capable of competing against Senior clubs, would you not actually rather play senior?

I've not disregarded your argument, I just pointed out that you made up your own question and answered it and pretended it was the one I posed.

There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team - which was the whole point of this now long running argument.

There's even less to suggest they're a junior team. Actual junior teams like Collegeland, Dromara, Dromhowan etc are at a disadvantage when they come up against the likes of Division 1 Cavan teams and Division 2 Derry and Donegal teams masquerading as junior clubs. Not really a level playing field at all.

Sure, you might ask them if they'd rather play Senior Championship or League and they'd say yes. But are they good enough for that? They just showed why they were Junior for 15 years by bowing out of Ulster pretty meekly

They lost by 3 points to Craigbane, who are for all intents and purposes a mainstay of intermediate football in Derry - another county that has starting taking the piss. They're even worse in the hurling.

The point being that just putting them to Senior now based on League would have them hockeyed. And thrashings at Senior level this year or a Junior title? Which would be more memorable?

Nobody is advocating shoe-horning teams into senior but if they're good enough to play the best clubs in Cavan in competitive league football then they're not really a junior team, are they?

This is nonsense. They've played Junior 4 of the last 5 seasons and got relegated the one year they were in Intermediate.

All their Intermediate success was well over a decade ago.
 
They are a small rural club who've actually performed extremely well in Ulster so far as they've been missing a few first team players.

How is it nonsense?
They've won the most IFCs in Derry, how are they not a mainstay of that grade?
They won the Derry JFC in 2022 and have won it again this year.
They finished 4th in Division 2 behind this year's IFC finalists, the IFC winners from the 2 years before and one of the most decorated clubs in Derry. 

Not having a go at Craigbane. Just the Derry board.

[oakleaflad]

Oxymoron aside, you've disregarded my argument all along (league/championship alignment). Nothing beats winning a championship with your club, but if your club is capable of competing against Senior clubs, would you not actually rather play senior?

I've not disregarded your argument, I just pointed out that you made up your own question and answered it and pretended it was the one I posed.

There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team - which was the whole point of this now long running argument.

There's even less to suggest they're a junior team. Actual junior teams like Collegeland, Dromara, Dromhowan etc are at a disadvantage when they come up against the likes of Division 1 Cavan teams and Division 2 Derry and Donegal teams masquerading as junior clubs. Not really a level playing field at all.

Sure, you might ask them if they'd rather play Senior Championship or League and they'd say yes. But are they good enough for that? They just showed why they were Junior for 15 years by bowing out of Ulster pretty meekly

They lost by 3 points to Craigbane, who are for all intents and purposes a mainstay of intermediate football in Derry - another county that has starting taking the piss. They're even worse in the hurling.

The point being that just putting them to Senior now based on League would have them hockeyed. And thrashings at Senior level this year or a Junior title? Which would be more memorable?

Nobody is advocating shoe-horning teams into senior but if they're good enough to play the best clubs in Cavan in competitive league football then they're not really a junior team, are they?

This is nonsense. They've played Junior 4 of the last 5 seasons and got relegated the one year they were in Intermediate.

All their Intermediate success was well over a decade ago.
 
They are a small rural club who've actually performed extremely well in Ulster so far as they've been missing a few first team players.

How is it nonsense?
They've won the most IFCs in Derry, how are they not a mainstay of that grade?
They won the Derry JFC in 2022 and have won it again this year.
They finished 4th in Division 2 behind this year's IFC finalists, the IFC winners from the 2 years before and one of the most decorated clubs in Derry. 

Not having a go at Craigbane. Just the Derry board.

Because their last Intermediate success was in 2011 and before that was 2000. It's not relevant to this teams grade. They've been in the bottom third of clubs in Derry this past 5 years.
 
They also didn't finish 4th in Division 2.

Restructuring aside they'd still have been a yoyo Junior/Intermediate side at best.

I would rather align leagues with championships and have competitive games across 3 evenly numbered divisions but it looks like Derry are going back to 16 at Senior and 4 promoted from junior. So our junior representatives will be disproportionately weak again from next year onwards.

[JoG2]

Oxymoron aside, you've disregarded my argument all along (league/championship alignment). Nothing beats winning a championship with your club, but if your club is capable of competing against Senior clubs, would you not actually rather play senior?

I've not disregarded your argument, I just pointed out that you made up your own question and answered it and pretended it was the one I posed.

There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team - which was the whole point of this now long running argument.

There's even less to suggest they're a junior team. Actual junior teams like Collegeland, Dromara, Dromhowan etc are at a disadvantage when they come up against the likes of Division 1 Cavan teams and Division 2 Derry and Donegal teams masquerading as junior clubs. Not really a level playing field at all.

Sure, you might ask them if they'd rather play Senior Championship or League and they'd say yes. But are they good enough for that? They just showed why they were Junior for 15 years by bowing out of Ulster pretty meekly

They lost by 3 points to Craigbane, who are for all intents and purposes a mainstay of intermediate football in Derry - another county that has starting taking the piss. They're even worse in the hurling.

The point being that just putting them to Senior now based on League would have them hockeyed. And thrashings at Senior level this year or a Junior title? Which would be more memorable?

Nobody is advocating shoe-horning teams into senior but if they're good enough to play the best clubs in Cavan in competitive league football then they're not really a junior team, are they?

This is nonsense. They've played Junior 4 of the last 5 seasons and got relegated the one year they were in Intermediate.

All their Intermediate success was well over a decade ago.
 
They are a small rural club who've actually performed extremely well in Ulster so far as they've been missing a few first team players.

How is it nonsense?
They've won the most IFCs in Derry, how are they not a mainstay of that grade?
They won the Derry JFC in 2022 and have won it again this year.
They finished 4th in Division 2 behind this year's IFC finalists, the IFC winners from the 2 years before and one of the most decorated clubs in Derry. 

Not having a go at Craigbane. Just the Derry board.

Because their last Intermediate success was in 2011 and before that was 2000. It's not relevant to this teams grade. They've been in the bottom third of clubs in Derry this past 5 years.
 
They also didn't finish 4th in Division 2.

Restructuring aside they'd still have been a yoyo Junior/Intermediate side at best.

I would rather align leagues with championships and have competitive games across 3 evenly numbered divisions but it looks like Derry are going back to 16 at Senior and 4 promoted from junior. So our junior representatives will be disproportionately weak again from next year onwards.

We'd all like our junior / intermediate to be stronger, but the bit in bold, who cares? What the vast majority in each division will want is a good tight competition, one that most can aspire to winning at the start of the year. Craigbane are a super team with some serious players (a couple getting on in years right enough) , prob just that wee bit too strong for the better junior teams, and prob wouldn't be a million miles away from winning or at least competing very well in intermediate.

[Wildweasel74]

The bit of who cares, says worry about Senior teams in Derry and Intermediate and Junior are a afterthought. Total opposite to Tyrones attitude. There are not 16 teams, strong enough at Senior in Derry, and it's more, oh look we a senior team.

[OakLeaf]

and prob wouldn't be a million miles away from winning or at least competing very well in intermediate.

They are a decent team but nowhere near competing with the top half of the Intermediate teams in the championship.

[Wildweasel74]

There 38 clubs in Derry, not alot, a top 14 at max, as is,is currently sufficient,and 2 sets of 12 at the next 2 levels. Kerry have 64 clubs and only a top 8 club wise in Div 1.

[JoG2]

and prob wouldn't be a million miles away from winning or at least competing very well in intermediate.

They are a decent team but nowhere near competing with the top half of the Intermediate teams in the championship.

You'd have said the same about the Vale last year

[OakLeaf]

and prob wouldn't be a million miles away from winning or at least competing very well in intermediate.

They are a decent team but nowhere near competing with the top half of the Intermediate teams in the championship.

You'd have said the same about the Vale last year

True. I'll take it all back if Craigbane make the Intermediate semi next year 😀

[general_lee]

and prob wouldn't be a million miles away from winning or at least competing very well in intermediate.

They are a decent team but nowhere near competing with the top half of the Intermediate teams in the championship.

They entered the Ulster Intermediate football league this year so they must think of themselves as being an intermediate team.

[OakLeaf]

They entered the Ulster Intermediate football league this year so they must think of themselves as being an intermediate team.

Jeez, you're like a dog with a bone with this! You'll have to ask them that question. I'm assuming they wanted to test themselves. It's Ulster league so it's hardly relevant to Championship qualification.

Craigbane are Junior because that's where they are at the minute within the context of Derry championship qualifying. Our leagues might be in transition but they gradings for each of the Championships were pretty accurate. Craigbane only beat Slaughtmanus by 1, Glack by 2 and Ballymaguigan by 1, so they hardly tore through the better teams in Derry Junior.

If they romp home in the All-Ireland Junior then get back to us.