Hamas attack Israel & subsequent genocide

[Franko]

Sure its ok to miss quote, you have littered the thread with it

Well if NI is not comparable I haven't seen you knock anyone on here with their use of NI as a comparison

It will, like all wars end up around a table, the sooner they get there the more mothers will be alive, sons will grow to be adults and men will be able to go out and provide for their families

That is unfortunately a lot to do with what the Israelis do going forward. The US, UK and others will eventually sway to public demand and call a stop on their support.

Too late for the thousands that have lost their lives and continue to do so. Armed resistance won't cut it, if another similar Hamas attack happened again in the future be rest assured the same thing will happen again, like it has done for 75 years   

I have knocked using comparisons and try and avoid them myself..  I think I might have even mentioned it yesterday when I mentioned the Warsaw ghetto (posted at 12.45 yesterday) and its not the first time I mentioned it..

there wasn't armed resistence for (all) that 75 years and the Palestinians are still being murdered without consequence.

we are going around in circles..

should palestinans use all legal avenues to get self determination, including armed reistence?

if not, are you saying they need to wait and accept whatever faith comes ther way until Uk/US/EU decides the stop supporting Israel and then Israel also decides to take a difference approach to the last 75 years?

to be clear the faith that has come there way sees daily murders, 2.2m caged in Gaza, starvation, apartheid in Israel, and the west bank. And little or no sign of any chance of self determination.

'including armed reistence' in reality what will that achieve, it like throwing rocks at a tank, or poking the bear with a stick to see if it will chase you..

From history of conflicts the invaded people generally come out on top, but they have usually put up more resistance because there has been a huge financial backer and provider of weapons, America Russia China lets say in Vietnam being an obvious recent war, that impasse and body count of American soldiers and protests back home eventually brought about negotiations to bringing that to an end, same in Afghanistan.

The Palestinians don't have that outside body to fund that, Iran won't get much more involved, as they have no one to back them either. Its got to come to some sort of talks, and a 2 state solution is the only way to have agreement. Israel at the minute won't entertain that, the current and past governments have/had no love for it either.

Current conditions are not healthy for it

Might not happen though for another 75 years! 

Oh, and I haven't said they shouldn't have armed resistance, I'm just saying its futile 

It's no more futile than sitting at a talks table with someone who has no interest in talking to you

Or who hasn't even turned up to the talks because they've no incentive to

They might as well throw rocks at the tanks

And there's another school of thought ref. the 6 county conflict, namely that the only thing that brought the British to the talks table in a serious way was a series of bombs in England

I think there's validity in that

[PadraicHenryPearse]

would it not be futile to just roll over and let Israel continue to do what it was doing.

the great march was peaceful - look at oslo and the settlement expansions since it,  were they futile?

The palestinans have the peaceful BDS movement, you can see how the US/UK have tried to prevent it, you actually mocked me for boycotting Israeli goods yourself and said

i know you are they type of guy and wave a flag maybe not use Israeli products but that won't stop non combatants from being obliterated

You're fond of mocking so, if you are going to give it you have to take it

I would try not to initiate mocking but am only human, so i might have initiated on occasion (german exchange example) but i have no problem responding and no problem taking it. you might remember our exchange regarding Germany. 'touche'

How am i fond of mocking by the way? maybe I am but I don't think so.

It appears and I very much hesitate before putting words in your mouth but you effectively told me boycotting was futile (or is it just me doing it that is futile). so that arms resistence and peaceful boycott off the table now is it?

I don't understand what you expect palestinans to do while they wait another 75 years (keeping consistent with what wrote) for self determination while Israel has free reign to murder them.

[Milltown Row2]

Sure its ok to miss quote, you have littered the thread with it

Well if NI is not comparable I haven't seen you knock anyone on here with their use of NI as a comparison

It will, like all wars end up around a table, the sooner they get there the more mothers will be alive, sons will grow to be adults and men will be able to go out and provide for their families

That is unfortunately a lot to do with what the Israelis do going forward. The US, UK and others will eventually sway to public demand and call a stop on their support.

Too late for the thousands that have lost their lives and continue to do so. Armed resistance won't cut it, if another similar Hamas attack happened again in the future be rest assured the same thing will happen again, like it has done for 75 years   

I have knocked using comparisons and try and avoid them myself..  I think I might have even mentioned it yesterday when I mentioned the Warsaw ghetto (posted at 12.45 yesterday) and its not the first time I mentioned it..

there wasn't armed resistence for (all) that 75 years and the Palestinians are still being murdered without consequence.

we are going around in circles..

should palestinans use all legal avenues to get self determination, including armed reistence?

if not, are you saying they need to wait and accept whatever faith comes ther way until Uk/US/EU decides the stop supporting Israel and then Israel also decides to take a difference approach to the last 75 years?

to be clear the faith that has come there way sees daily murders, 2.2m caged in Gaza, starvation, apartheid in Israel, and the west bank. And little or no sign of any chance of self determination.

'including armed reistence' in reality what will that achieve, it like throwing rocks at a tank, or poking the bear with a stick to see if it will chase you..

From history of conflicts the invaded people generally come out on top, but they have usually put up more resistance because there has been a huge financial backer and provider of weapons, America Russia China lets say in Vietnam being an obvious recent war, that impasse and body count of American soldiers and protests back home eventually brought about negotiations to bringing that to an end, same in Afghanistan.

The Palestinians don't have that outside body to fund that, Iran won't get much more involved, as they have no one to back them either. Its got to come to some sort of talks, and a 2 state solution is the only way to have agreement. Israel at the minute won't entertain that, the current and past governments have/had no love for it either.

Current conditions are not healthy for it

Might not happen though for another 75 years! 

Oh, and I haven't said they shouldn't have armed resistance, I'm just saying its futile 

It's no more futile than sitting at a talks table with someone who has no interest in talking to you

Or who hasn't even turned up to the talks because they've no incentive to

They might as well throw rocks at the tanks

And there's another school of thought ref. the 6 county conflict, namely that the only thing that brought the British to the talks table in a serious way was a series of bombs in England

I think there's validity in that

If you think there is validity in blowing innocent people into smithereens grand, whatever floats your boat

They were setting off bombs in England during the 70's 80's and 90's over 30 years it didn't help or changed the mindset for a long time, if that was actually was the reason

What brought people to the table or behind close doors  there was no end game other than dialogue that and the republican movement was completely infiltrated by touts, and needed to go down the political process, which has brought about a SF minister, still under British rule but a lot further down the road than 50 years ago.

As php said there is no comparison though

Look anything is better than doing nothing internationally, but the big guns are still rowing in behind the Israelis, all I've said is that it will only stop when they talk, are the conditions there at the minute for that? no..

Marches and protests will obviously bring and keep attention/focus on the genocide, but the main governments, mainly the US as the rest will fall in behind them need to demand the talks

[Franko]

Sure its ok to miss quote, you have littered the thread with it

Well if NI is not comparable I haven't seen you knock anyone on here with their use of NI as a comparison

It will, like all wars end up around a table, the sooner they get there the more mothers will be alive, sons will grow to be adults and men will be able to go out and provide for their families

That is unfortunately a lot to do with what the Israelis do going forward. The US, UK and others will eventually sway to public demand and call a stop on their support.

Too late for the thousands that have lost their lives and continue to do so. Armed resistance won't cut it, if another similar Hamas attack happened again in the future be rest assured the same thing will happen again, like it has done for 75 years   

I have knocked using comparisons and try and avoid them myself..  I think I might have even mentioned it yesterday when I mentioned the Warsaw ghetto (posted at 12.45 yesterday) and its not the first time I mentioned it..

there wasn't armed resistence for (all) that 75 years and the Palestinians are still being murdered without consequence.

we are going around in circles..

should palestinans use all legal avenues to get self determination, including armed reistence?

if not, are you saying they need to wait and accept whatever faith comes ther way until Uk/US/EU decides the stop supporting Israel and then Israel also decides to take a difference approach to the last 75 years?

to be clear the faith that has come there way sees daily murders, 2.2m caged in Gaza, starvation, apartheid in Israel, and the west bank. And little or no sign of any chance of self determination.

'including armed reistence' in reality what will that achieve, it like throwing rocks at a tank, or poking the bear with a stick to see if it will chase you..

From history of conflicts the invaded people generally come out on top, but they have usually put up more resistance because there has been a huge financial backer and provider of weapons, America Russia China lets say in Vietnam being an obvious recent war, that impasse and body count of American soldiers and protests back home eventually brought about negotiations to bringing that to an end, same in Afghanistan.

The Palestinians don't have that outside body to fund that, Iran won't get much more involved, as they have no one to back them either. Its got to come to some sort of talks, and a 2 state solution is the only way to have agreement. Israel at the minute won't entertain that, the current and past governments have/had no love for it either.

Current conditions are not healthy for it

Might not happen though for another 75 years! 

Oh, and I haven't said they shouldn't have armed resistance, I'm just saying its futile 

It's no more futile than sitting at a talks table with someone who has no interest in talking to you

Or who hasn't even turned up to the talks because they've no incentive to

They might as well throw rocks at the tanks

And there's another school of thought ref. the 6 county conflict, namely that the only thing that brought the British to the talks table in a serious way was a series of bombs in England

I think there's validity in that

If you think there is validity in blowing innocent people into smithereens grand, whatever floats your boat

They were setting off bombs in England during the 70's 80's and 90's over 30 years it didn't help or changed the mindset for a long time, if that was actually was the reason

What brought people to the table or behind close doors  there was no end game other than dialogue that and the republican movement was completely infiltrated by touts, and needed to go down the political process, which has brought about a SF minister, still under British rule but a lot further down the road than 50 years ago.

As php said there is no comparison though

Look anything is better than doing nothing internationally, but the big guns are still rowing in behind the Israelis, all I've said is that it will only stop when they talk, are the conditions there at the minute for that? no..

Marches and protests will obviously bring and keep attention/focus on the genocide, but the main governments, mainly the US as the rest will fall in behind them need to demand the talks

You know full well that's not what I meant

But you decided, pathetically, to go for the cheap point score anyway

Which I shouldn't be surprised about I suppose


You keep mentioning talks - but talks only work when both sides WANT to engage

For any negotiation to happen, in any setting, both sides need some sort of leverage

The Palestinians currently have none

When one side just wants to keep murdering your citizens and stealing your land - and can do so with total impunity, pray tell me what the fcuk the point would be of turning up to sit and talk about it

I stand by what I said - and it's generally recognised by many people a lot more qualified than either of us - the bombing in England was a crucial factor in making the British govt realise that talks were the only way - they had tried the military route and it got them nowhere

[Armagh18]

To paraphrase the old quote- bomb them to the table and then booby trap the table!

[PadraicHenryPearse]

local media were invited to film a reprimand of the Irish ambassador.

Israeli TV stations showed footage of the ambassador and counterparts being admonished yesterday.

[Itchy]

local media were invited to film a reprimand of the Irish ambassador.

Israeli TV stations showed footage of the ambassador and counterparts being admonished yesterday.

Why have we still an ambassador in that shit hole. He should be brought home. The Israeli embassy in Dublin should be re-purposed to house Palestinian refugees. We should have no ties with a racist, fascist, evil country like Israel.

[Milltown Row2]

Sure its ok to miss quote, you have littered the thread with it

Well if NI is not comparable I haven't seen you knock anyone on here with their use of NI as a comparison

It will, like all wars end up around a table, the sooner they get there the more mothers will be alive, sons will grow to be adults and men will be able to go out and provide for their families

That is unfortunately a lot to do with what the Israelis do going forward. The US, UK and others will eventually sway to public demand and call a stop on their support.

Too late for the thousands that have lost their lives and continue to do so. Armed resistance won't cut it, if another similar Hamas attack happened again in the future be rest assured the same thing will happen again, like it has done for 75 years   

I have knocked using comparisons and try and avoid them myself..  I think I might have even mentioned it yesterday when I mentioned the Warsaw ghetto (posted at 12.45 yesterday) and its not the first time I mentioned it..

there wasn't armed resistence for (all) that 75 years and the Palestinians are still being murdered without consequence.

we are going around in circles..

should palestinans use all legal avenues to get self determination, including armed reistence?

if not, are you saying they need to wait and accept whatever faith comes ther way until Uk/US/EU decides the stop supporting Israel and then Israel also decides to take a difference approach to the last 75 years?

to be clear the faith that has come there way sees daily murders, 2.2m caged in Gaza, starvation, apartheid in Israel, and the west bank. And little or no sign of any chance of self determination.

'including armed reistence' in reality what will that achieve, it like throwing rocks at a tank, or poking the bear with a stick to see if it will chase you..

From history of conflicts the invaded people generally come out on top, but they have usually put up more resistance because there has been a huge financial backer and provider of weapons, America Russia China lets say in Vietnam being an obvious recent war, that impasse and body count of American soldiers and protests back home eventually brought about negotiations to bringing that to an end, same in Afghanistan.

The Palestinians don't have that outside body to fund that, Iran won't get much more involved, as they have no one to back them either. Its got to come to some sort of talks, and a 2 state solution is the only way to have agreement. Israel at the minute won't entertain that, the current and past governments have/had no love for it either.

Current conditions are not healthy for it

Might not happen though for another 75 years! 

Oh, and I haven't said they shouldn't have armed resistance, I'm just saying its futile 

It's no more futile than sitting at a talks table with someone who has no interest in talking to you

Or who hasn't even turned up to the talks because they've no incentive to

They might as well throw rocks at the tanks

And there's another school of thought ref. the 6 county conflict, namely that the only thing that brought the British to the talks table in a serious way was a series of bombs in England

I think there's validity in that

If you think there is validity in blowing innocent people into smithereens grand, whatever floats your boat

They were setting off bombs in England during the 70's 80's and 90's over 30 years it didn't help or changed the mindset for a long time, if that was actually was the reason

What brought people to the table or behind close doors  there was no end game other than dialogue that and the republican movement was completely infiltrated by touts, and needed to go down the political process, which has brought about a SF minister, still under British rule but a lot further down the road than 50 years ago.

As php said there is no comparison though

Look anything is better than doing nothing internationally, but the big guns are still rowing in behind the Israelis, all I've said is that it will only stop when they talk, are the conditions there at the minute for that? no..

Marches and protests will obviously bring and keep attention/focus on the genocide, but the main governments, mainly the US as the rest will fall in behind them need to demand the talks

You know full well that's not what I meant

But you decided, pathetically, to go for the cheap point score anyway

Which I shouldn't be surprised about I suppose


You keep mentioning talks - but talks only work when both sides WANT to engage

For any negotiation to happen, in any setting, both sides need some sort of leverage

The Palestinians currently have none

When one side just wants to keep murdering your citizens and stealing your land - and can do so with total impunity, pray tell me what the fcuk the point would be of turning up to sit and talk about it

I stand by what I said - and it's generally recognised by many people a lot more qualified than either of us - the bombing in England was a crucial factor in making the British govt realise that talks were the only way - they had tried the military route and it got them nowhere

You are fond of the cheap shots also, so dry your eyes

I've said repeatedly that the the conditions are nowhere near right for talks, but talks will be the only way this conflict will have better ending.

What do Hamas want to bring to the table? They want a 2 state solution to be part of the PLO and be legitimised, that said they still ant to destroy Israel (and who can blame them) but that rhetoric isn't helpful either..

Talks 20 years ago should have been upheld and the Israelis kept in check on land grabbing and abuse to those living in Gaza, that's on those that set up those talks, it allowed Israel to do what it wanted.

I've no idea how any resolution will come about, to even go into talks, but that doesn't mean armed resistance is the other solution. It's not and won't, regardless of what you think happened over here, stop those feckers from doing what they are doing now 

My views on how this place, it was purely political in the end. I don't think bombings that spanned the 3 decades actually made a difference. If nearly taking out the Tory government in Brighton didn't work I fail to see how it was the main reason, that was in 84, Good Friday Agreement 98..

As you said though there are smarter people than us that good give many reasons. And look you can throw out cheap pot shots at me till the cows come home, you are a nobody person (like me) behind a screen, you've no impact on my life

[PadraicHenryPearse]

Here is a times if Israel article on Hamas offering long term ceasefire from 2015.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-offers-long-term-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-end-of-blockade/amp/

We know Hamas offered to release all non combatant hostages in early October but Israel rejected it as it included not entering Gaza.

[whitey]

Here is a times if Israel article on Hamas offering long term ceasefire from 2015.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-offers-long-term-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-end-of-blockade/amp/

We know Hamas offered to release all non combatant hostages in early October but Israel rejected it as it included not entering Gaza.

Did you bother reading any of the comments

One example:

"Hamas wants a seaport and airport to receive weapons from Iran and other states and terrorist organizartions. Only a new Gaza with a democratic regime where the people are free can be trusted. Hamas cannot."

[Franko]

Sure its ok to miss quote, you have littered the thread with it

Well if NI is not comparable I haven't seen you knock anyone on here with their use of NI as a comparison

It will, like all wars end up around a table, the sooner they get there the more mothers will be alive, sons will grow to be adults and men will be able to go out and provide for their families

That is unfortunately a lot to do with what the Israelis do going forward. The US, UK and others will eventually sway to public demand and call a stop on their support.

Too late for the thousands that have lost their lives and continue to do so. Armed resistance won't cut it, if another similar Hamas attack happened again in the future be rest assured the same thing will happen again, like it has done for 75 years   

I have knocked using comparisons and try and avoid them myself..  I think I might have even mentioned it yesterday when I mentioned the Warsaw ghetto (posted at 12.45 yesterday) and its not the first time I mentioned it..

there wasn't armed resistence for (all) that 75 years and the Palestinians are still being murdered without consequence.

we are going around in circles..

should palestinans use all legal avenues to get self determination, including armed reistence?

if not, are you saying they need to wait and accept whatever faith comes ther way until Uk/US/EU decides the stop supporting Israel and then Israel also decides to take a difference approach to the last 75 years?

to be clear the faith that has come there way sees daily murders, 2.2m caged in Gaza, starvation, apartheid in Israel, and the west bank. And little or no sign of any chance of self determination.

'including armed reistence' in reality what will that achieve, it like throwing rocks at a tank, or poking the bear with a stick to see if it will chase you..

From history of conflicts the invaded people generally come out on top, but they have usually put up more resistance because there has been a huge financial backer and provider of weapons, America Russia China lets say in Vietnam being an obvious recent war, that impasse and body count of American soldiers and protests back home eventually brought about negotiations to bringing that to an end, same in Afghanistan.

The Palestinians don't have that outside body to fund that, Iran won't get much more involved, as they have no one to back them either. Its got to come to some sort of talks, and a 2 state solution is the only way to have agreement. Israel at the minute won't entertain that, the current and past governments have/had no love for it either.

Current conditions are not healthy for it

Might not happen though for another 75 years! 

Oh, and I haven't said they shouldn't have armed resistance, I'm just saying its futile 

It's no more futile than sitting at a talks table with someone who has no interest in talking to you

Or who hasn't even turned up to the talks because they've no incentive to

They might as well throw rocks at the tanks

And there's another school of thought ref. the 6 county conflict, namely that the only thing that brought the British to the talks table in a serious way was a series of bombs in England

I think there's validity in that

If you think there is validity in blowing innocent people into smithereens grand, whatever floats your boat

They were setting off bombs in England during the 70's 80's and 90's over 30 years it didn't help or changed the mindset for a long time, if that was actually was the reason

What brought people to the table or behind close doors  there was no end game other than dialogue that and the republican movement was completely infiltrated by touts, and needed to go down the political process, which has brought about a SF minister, still under British rule but a lot further down the road than 50 years ago.

As php said there is no comparison though

Look anything is better than doing nothing internationally, but the big guns are still rowing in behind the Israelis, all I've said is that it will only stop when they talk, are the conditions there at the minute for that? no..

Marches and protests will obviously bring and keep attention/focus on the genocide, but the main governments, mainly the US as the rest will fall in behind them need to demand the talks

You know full well that's not what I meant

But you decided, pathetically, to go for the cheap point score anyway

Which I shouldn't be surprised about I suppose


You keep mentioning talks - but talks only work when both sides WANT to engage

For any negotiation to happen, in any setting, both sides need some sort of leverage

The Palestinians currently have none

When one side just wants to keep murdering your citizens and stealing your land - and can do so with total impunity, pray tell me what the fcuk the point would be of turning up to sit and talk about it

I stand by what I said - and it's generally recognised by many people a lot more qualified than either of us - the bombing in England was a crucial factor in making the British govt realise that talks were the only way - they had tried the military route and it got them nowhere

You are fond of the cheap shots also, so dry your eyes

I've said repeatedly that the the conditions are nowhere near right for talks, but talks will be the only way this conflict will have better ending.

What do Hamas want to bring to the table? They want a 2 state solution to be part of the PLO and be legitimised, that said they still ant to destroy Israel (and who can blame them) but that rhetoric isn't helpful either..

Talks 20 years ago should have been upheld and the Israelis kept in check on land grabbing and abuse to those living in Gaza, that's on those that set up those talks, it allowed Israel to do what it wanted.

I've no idea how any resolution will come about, to even go into talks, but that doesn't mean armed resistance is the other solution. It's not and won't, regardless of what you think happened over here, stop those feckers from doing what they are doing now 

My views on how this place, it was purely political in the end. I don't think bombings that spanned the 3 decades actually made a difference. If nearly taking out the Tory government in Brighton didn't work I fail to see how it was the main reason, that was in 84, Good Friday Agreement 98..

As you said though there are smarter people than us that good give many reasons. And look you can throw out cheap pot shots at me till the cows come home, you are a nobody person (like me) behind a screen, you've no impact on my life

It's always political in the end - that's a nothing observation.

As is the rest of it to be frank.  A whole lot of if, but and shouldn't.  Nothing

Brolly had a good line on it somewhere... basically something along the lines that in the whole history of human kind, people who lived under oppressive regimes for sustained periods ALWAYS ended up resorting to violence.  It's human nature - nothing more.

Someone (you?) asked he question earlier regarding what Hamas expected in retaliation to October 7th.  The question should actually be - What did Israel expect after 75 years of subjugation?

And finally - please drop the perma-victim routine.  I engaged with you in good faith, you acted the child, I called you out.  No need for the histrionics - nobody cares

[Itchy]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/international-court-of-justice-orders-israel-to-stop-military-assault-on-gazas-rafah/a1901650259.html

ICJ orders Israel to stop assault on Rafah. They will ignore. Will Genocide Joe declare this also as "outrageous".

What it will do is surely hasten the other countries in Europe to follow Ireland/Norway/Spains lead to recognise the Palestinian state. Finally these monsters are being isolated and will be treated as the rogue pariah state that they are.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

Here is a times if Israel article on Hamas offering long term ceasefire from 2015.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-offers-long-term-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-end-of-blockade/amp/

We know Hamas offered to release all non combatant hostages in early October but Israel rejected it as it included not entering Gaza.

Did you bother reading any of the comments

One example:

"Hamas wants a seaport and airport to receive weapons from Iran and other states and terrorist organizartions. Only a new Gaza with a democratic regime where the people are free can be trusted. Hamas cannot."

no, i didnt read the comments from random people, I read the article which stated among other things includes extremely moderate positions for Hamas, Hamas is interested in maintaining the quiet and Hamas is interested in improved relations with the international community, and would like to discuss with it all issues related to stability and international peace.

any chance you can answer the question asked of you twice be me and mentioned now 4 times which you are choosing to ignore

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Here is a times if Israel article on Hamas offering long term ceasefire from 2015.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-offers-long-term-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-end-of-blockade/amp/

We know Hamas offered to release all non combatant hostages in early October but Israel rejected it as it included not entering Gaza.

Offered again 2 or 3 weeks ago.  Hostages aren't the priority for Israel.

[Armagh18]

Here is a times if Israel article on Hamas offering long term ceasefire from 2015.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-offers-long-term-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-end-of-blockade/amp/

We know Hamas offered to release all non combatant hostages in early October but Israel rejected it as it included not entering Gaza.

Did you bother reading any of the comments

One example:

"Hamas wants a seaport and airport to receive weapons from Iran and other states and terrorist organizartions. Only a new Gaza with a democratic regime where the people are free can be trusted. Hamas cannot."

So that is the only reason a country would want an airport/seaport. Ok.