Ulster Club IFC/JFC 2023

[ranch]

How about we look at what counties put forward teams that do not play in their relevant Junior and Intermediate Leagues .

In Cavan there aren't Senior/intermediate/junior leagues I presume? They're called division 1,2 & 3, therefore no link to the championship grades?

Nobody seems to have a problem with Drumaness playing division 3 and junior championship in Down, whilst Bosco were playing division 4 and intermediate? They have a system of championship relegation play offs and therefore there's no link between championship and league. If they adopted a linked system then Bosco might well have won a junior championship this year, but they were able to retain intermediate status by once again winning in the relegation play offs.
I find it odd that people are insistent that there should be a link between the two. Surely championship relegation play offs when clubs have all their county players available etc is a much fairer way of grading teams rather than basing it on their league form earlier in the year, in what is a essentially a secondary competition.

[intheknowhow]

How about we look at what counties put forward teams that do not play in their relevant Junior and Intermediate Leagues .

In Cavan there aren't Senior/intermediate/junior leagues I presume? They're called division 1,2 & 3, therefore no link to the championship grades?

Nobody seems to have a problem with Drumaness playing division 3 and junior championship in Down, whilst Bosco were playing division 4 and intermediate? They have a system of championship relegation play offs and therefore there's no link between championship and league. If they adopted a linked system then Bosco might well have won a junior championship this year, but they were able to retain intermediate status by once again winning in the relegation play offs.
I find it odd that people are insistent that there should be a link between the two. Surely championship relegation play offs when clubs have all their county players available etc is a much fairer way of grading teams rather than basing it on their league form earlier in the year, in what is a essentially a secondary competition.

I wonder is there an argument or evidence that teams that link have better Ulster club contenders and county teams?

[Dreadnought]

How about we look at what counties put forward teams that do not play in their relevant Junior and Intermediate Leagues .

In Cavan there aren't Senior/intermediate/junior leagues I presume? They're called division 1,2 & 3, therefore no link to the championship grades?

Nobody seems to have a problem with Drumaness playing division 3 and junior championship in Down, whilst Bosco were playing division 4 and intermediate? They have a system of championship relegation play offs and therefore there's no link between championship and league. If they adopted a linked system then Bosco might well have won a junior championship this year, but they were able to retain intermediate status by once again winning in the relegation play offs.
I find it odd that people are insistent that there should be a link between the two. Surely championship relegation play offs when clubs have all their county players available etc is a much fairer way of grading teams rather than basing it on their league form earlier in the year, in what is a essentially a secondary competition.

I wonder is there an argument or evidence that teams that link have better Ulster club contenders and county teams?

No idea. But if so, doesn't it blow up your theory and moaning about this?

[Armagh18]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play. Not sure how the county players argument makes sense. Surely if you're fit to play division 1 without them then they come back and strengthen you more then you certainly shouldn't play in a weaker championship. 

[ranch]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective, I recall playing in division 4 and beating teams from division 3 in junior championship games. I also remember in 2011 Eire Og were in division 4 and they defeated Tullysaran from division 2 in the first round, before beating Clonmore from division 3 in the final.
In 2010 Grange finished 2nd in division 4 and defeated Tullysaran, who finished 2nd in division 3, in the final.
Shane O'Neill's won the Junior in 2009 and played Sarsfields in the first round of intermediate in 2010. Sarsfields were a division 1 team against a division 3 team and won by a point - they went on to win the championship that year  - despite being a division 1 team they made no impact in Ulster.

You will also find examples of teams being hammered by opposition from the divisions above them - it happened to my own club on occasions. But that still happens no even when the league and championship are linked (just look at Cullyhanna's results in the championship this year).

 

Not sure how the county players argument makes sense. Surely if you're fit to play division 1 without them then they come back and strengthen you more then you certainly shouldn't play in a weaker championship. 

Which is opposite to the Cullyhanna situation.
They're clearly a senior level team in Armagh with their county players available - the relative ease with which they won the intermediate championship proves this. They got relegated in 2022 based on their league performances without their county players.
If you don't see a problem with that then fair enough. I don't think I'll be able to convince you otherwise, and the same goes for me.

[Itchy]

I can tell you I spoke to 3 lads at lunch there, from Sligo, Galway and Mayo. Their league and championship totally seperate too. Bar the couple on northern counties I haven't come across any that are linked

Do they have junior champ teams playing div 1?

Do they i don't know but it is possible to happen. Ardnaree on one occassion were in a junior AI final and I'm pretty sure they were not Div3.

[tonto1888]

Sunday 10th Dec 2023
Intermediate Final
1pm
Ballyhaise v St Patrick's Cullyhanna in Castleblayney

is it not the athletic grounds?

[tonto1888]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective, I recall playing in division 4 and beating teams from division 3 in junior championship games. I also remember in 2011 Eire Og were in division 4 and they defeated Tullysaran from division 2 in the first round, before beating Clonmore from division 3 in the final.
In 2010 Grange finished 2nd in division 4 and defeated Tullysaran, who finished 2nd in division 3, in the final.
Shane O'Neill's won the Junior in 2009 and played Sarsfields in the first round of intermediate in 2010. Sarsfields were a division 1 team against a division 3 team and won by a point - they went on to win the championship that year  - despite being a division 1 team they made no impact in Ulster.

You will also find examples of teams being hammered by opposition from the divisions above them - it happened to my own club on occasions. But that still happens no even when the league and championship are linked (just look at Cullyhanna's results in the championship this year).

 

Not sure how the county players argument makes sense. Surely if you're fit to play division 1 without them then they come back and strengthen you more then you certainly shouldn't play in a weaker championship. 

Which is opposite to the Cullyhanna situation.
They're clearly a senior level team in Armagh with their county players available - the relative ease with which they won the intermediate championship proves this. They got relegated in 2022 based on their league performances without their county players.
If you don't see a problem with that then fair enough. I don't think I'll be able to convince you otherwise, and the same goes for me.

and they were beaten in the first round of the senior championship last year with their county players playing. Their county players played some games in the league also to say they got relegated without them is not entirely true.
I like the league and championship linked in armagh. Males it easier to understand without going into division 1 teams playing division 3 teams or what have you. I am not saying that is wrong at all, just my preference.

[ranch]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective, I recall playing in division 4 and beating teams from division 3 in junior championship games. I also remember in 2011 Eire Og were in division 4 and they defeated Tullysaran from division 2 in the first round, before beating Clonmore from division 3 in the final.
In 2010 Grange finished 2nd in division 4 and defeated Tullysaran, who finished 2nd in division 3, in the final.
Shane O'Neill's won the Junior in 2009 and played Sarsfields in the first round of intermediate in 2010. Sarsfields were a division 1 team against a division 3 team and won by a point - they went on to win the championship that year  - despite being a division 1 team they made no impact in Ulster.

You will also find examples of teams being hammered by opposition from the divisions above them - it happened to my own club on occasions. But that still happens no even when the league and championship are linked (just look at Cullyhanna's results in the championship this year).

 

Not sure how the county players argument makes sense. Surely if you're fit to play division 1 without them then they come back and strengthen you more then you certainly shouldn't play in a weaker championship. 

Which is opposite to the Cullyhanna situation.
They're clearly a senior level team in Armagh with their county players available - the relative ease with which they won the intermediate championship proves this. They got relegated in 2022 based on their league performances without their county players.
If you don't see a problem with that then fair enough. I don't think I'll be able to convince you otherwise, and the same goes for me.

and they were beaten in the first round of the senior championship last year with their county players playing. Their county players played some games in the league also to say they got relegated without them is not entirely true.
I like the league and championship linked in armagh. Males it easier to understand without going into division 1 teams playing division 3 teams or what have you. I am not saying that is wrong at all, just my preference.

I get that people like it as it makes it easier to understand.
They did lose the first round last year, along with a few other teams as well. A relegation play off amongst those teams would have been a fair way to decide championship grades for this year. The fact they had their county players for a handful of games at the end of the league season doesn't make it fair that they go down to intermediate.
What good does it do other clubs like Belleek and Derrynoose to be playing against Cullyhanna in the intermediate this year?
Anyway, I feel like I'm needing to re-explain my point every few comments here to people who don't/won't be convinced otherwise, so it's a pretty futile exercise at this stage.

[tonto1888]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective, I recall playing in division 4 and beating teams from division 3 in junior championship games. I also remember in 2011 Eire Og were in division 4 and they defeated Tullysaran from division 2 in the first round, before beating Clonmore from division 3 in the final.
In 2010 Grange finished 2nd in division 4 and defeated Tullysaran, who finished 2nd in division 3, in the final.
Shane O'Neill's won the Junior in 2009 and played Sarsfields in the first round of intermediate in 2010. Sarsfields were a division 1 team against a division 3 team and won by a point - they went on to win the championship that year  - despite being a division 1 team they made no impact in Ulster.

You will also find examples of teams being hammered by opposition from the divisions above them - it happened to my own club on occasions. But that still happens no even when the league and championship are linked (just look at Cullyhanna's results in the championship this year).

 

Not sure how the county players argument makes sense. Surely if you're fit to play division 1 without them then they come back and strengthen you more then you certainly shouldn't play in a weaker championship. 

Which is opposite to the Cullyhanna situation.
They're clearly a senior level team in Armagh with their county players available - the relative ease with which they won the intermediate championship proves this. They got relegated in 2022 based on their league performances without their county players.
If you don't see a problem with that then fair enough. I don't think I'll be able to convince you otherwise, and the same goes for me.

and they were beaten in the first round of the senior championship last year with their county players playing. Their county players played some games in the league also to say they got relegated without them is not entirely true.
I like the league and championship linked in armagh. Males it easier to understand without going into division 1 teams playing division 3 teams or what have you. I am not saying that is wrong at all, just my preference.

I get that people like it as it makes it easier to understand.
They did lose the first round last year, along with a few other teams as well. A relegation play off amongst those teams would have been a fair way to decide championship grades for this year. The fact they had their county players for a handful of games at the end of the league season doesn't make it fair that they go down to intermediate.
What good does it do other clubs like Belleek and Derrynoose to be playing against Cullyhanna in the intermediate this year?
Anyway, I feel like I'm needing to re-explain my point every few comments here to people who don't/won't be convinced otherwise, so it's a pretty futile exercise at this stage.

If Armagh do change then I would like to see the relegation you speak about.
To be honest, I dont care what other counties do in their championships. When I watch their games I dont think about how they are graded, unless it is Kerry but I stop thinking about it once the game is over. When Armagh teams play other county teams in Ulster it doesn't cross my mind at all how their championships are graded.
Your point about how the likes of Belleek feel doesnt register either. Ive seen teams in all grades get hammered over the years, including my own team and many in the senior championship when Crossmaglen were at the peak of their game. It happens

[ranch]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective, I recall playing in division 4 and beating teams from division 3 in junior championship games. I also remember in 2011 Eire Og were in division 4 and they defeated Tullysaran from division 2 in the first round, before beating Clonmore from division 3 in the final.
In 2010 Grange finished 2nd in division 4 and defeated Tullysaran, who finished 2nd in division 3, in the final.
Shane O'Neill's won the Junior in 2009 and played Sarsfields in the first round of intermediate in 2010. Sarsfields were a division 1 team against a division 3 team and won by a point - they went on to win the championship that year  - despite being a division 1 team they made no impact in Ulster.

You will also find examples of teams being hammered by opposition from the divisions above them - it happened to my own club on occasions. But that still happens no even when the league and championship are linked (just look at Cullyhanna's results in the championship this year).

 

Not sure how the county players argument makes sense. Surely if you're fit to play division 1 without them then they come back and strengthen you more then you certainly shouldn't play in a weaker championship. 

Which is opposite to the Cullyhanna situation.
They're clearly a senior level team in Armagh with their county players available - the relative ease with which they won the intermediate championship proves this. They got relegated in 2022 based on their league performances without their county players.
If you don't see a problem with that then fair enough. I don't think I'll be able to convince you otherwise, and the same goes for me.

and they were beaten in the first round of the senior championship last year with their county players playing. Their county players played some games in the league also to say they got relegated without them is not entirely true.
I like the league and championship linked in armagh. Males it easier to understand without going into division 1 teams playing division 3 teams or what have you. I am not saying that is wrong at all, just my preference.

I get that people like it as it makes it easier to understand.
They did lose the first round last year, along with a few other teams as well. A relegation play off amongst those teams would have been a fair way to decide championship grades for this year. The fact they had their county players for a handful of games at the end of the league season doesn't make it fair that they go down to intermediate.
What good does it do other clubs like Belleek and Derrynoose to be playing against Cullyhanna in the intermediate this year?
Anyway, I feel like I'm needing to re-explain my point every few comments here to people who don't/won't be convinced otherwise, so it's a pretty futile exercise at this stage.

Your point about how the likes of Belleek feel doesnt register either. Ive seen teams in all grades get hammered over the years, including my own team and many in the senior championship when Crossmaglen were at the peak of their game. It happens

Fair enough point about hammerings. This was more aimed at those posters who are complaining about the Cavan system, of which you aren't one.

[general_lee]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective,

Clans reached the Senior championship final this year and all teams bar one were in the league above them.

[bennydorano]

I like the 1a & 1b thing for senior league in Armagh. it's clear as day 1a is where it's at, 1b is a half way house for teams heading to intermediate or intermediate teams trying to genuinely bridge the gap to Senior. Clans were a bit of an outlier this year in 1b and they really need to get out of it. That said I don't think Clans are the 2nd best team in Armagh, still behind Clann Eireann and Madden imo, but a team heading up the rankings.

[ranch]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective,

Clans reached the Senior championship final this year and all teams bar one were in the league above them.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. I don't see how Clan wouldn't be a senior club if the championship system wasn't linked to league? They won intermediate a few years ago so would need to be relegated from the championship via a play off if the system was to change.

[general_lee]

So Bosco are punching above their weight fair play.

So maybe proof that there doesn't need to be a link between league and championship? With relegation play offs in championship teams will find their correct level. Counties that don't link them are correct in my opinion.

From an Armagh perspective,

Clans reached the Senior championship final this year and all teams bar one were in the league above them.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. I don't see how Clan wouldn't be a senior club if the championship system wasn't linked to league? They won intermediate a few years ago so would need to be relegated from the championship via a play off if the system was to change.

You suggested a few posts back that a load of occasions when clubs from lower league divisions defeated clubs above them in championship football was proof that there was no need to link league and championship.

I'm merely demonstrating that this is still the case even with leagues & championships linked.