The money is blowing in the wind

[Billys Boots]

Go on, I'll play:

So where do you think the money will go if Element Power and others build their turbines ?

Presumably the money earned from the sale of electricity will go to the power companies, and there will be a 'rental' or operational fee paid to the turbine owners/operators.  Am I missing something?

And do you actually think that the power generated is even intended for the Irish market in the first place (clue, the Conservative party in UK doesn't want to take rural vote backlash so better to import green power to met with committments)?

Do we not get most of our electricity needs (in RoI) from the Inter-connector at present - is the purpose of the inter-connector not to share generated power to avoid outages (right across Europe etc.)?  From speaking with the power generating community, over the years, generation of electricity is transboundary in the modern world, and has been for some time.  So, in short, I think that argument is irrelevant and a red herring in this discussion.

And who do you think is massively subsidising the construction of them ?

I'm assuming that anyone investing in the construction of any project will be expecting a return - in this case I've got no idea, but again I don't think it has any relevancy in a discussion whether it's important or not to build windfarms. 

Do you really think that they are green energies ?

Not sure what the definition of green energy is at present, but on the whole, yes. 

Do you understand the implications to all landowners within a 500m radius of one of these monster turbines?

I think so.

Do you have any real idea of how big these monster turbines are (clue: helicopters land on the hubs to allow engineers out to service them) ?

I've seen some of these up close, through work (though I should point out that my work is not really connected, so I don't consider myself to have a vested interest). 

Do you know what infra sound is ?

I've a qualification in Environmental Acoustics, so I presume you're talking about low frequency noise - if so, then I do. 

Do you actually have a vested interest or are you just uninformed ?

Neither.  I don't think I'd like to live very close to a wind turbine; similarly I wouldn't like to live close to a wastewater treatment plant, or a landfill site, or a manufacturing facility.  However, I recognise that I gain a benefit from each and all of them - my attitude is that people benefit from all of these infrastructures.  They have to be built somewhere, and sustainability usually determines that they're built in inhabited areas - as long as they're sited in places that are suitable, and that communities don't have to bear more than their fair share of that type of infrastructure, and that communities are compensated (in kind) for bearing the impacts of that type of infrastructure, then I don't think there should be such an outcry.  Everyone uses electricity; if we want to have it then we must have the infrastructure. 

[muppet]

Well played Billy.

[Hardy]

Disturbing use of reason and logic there, Billy. You're in the wrong country.

[Billys Boots]

Disturbing use of reason and logic there, Billy. You're in the wrong country.

It's ok, I'm leaving on Friday (temporarily, sadly).

[Jinxy]

Sure the sky is full of wind.
We might as well get some use out of it.

[Hardy]

I think the sacrosanct planning laws, detailed regulations and meticulous procedures as implemented, for instance, by the Dublin City Manager, should apply:

GAA/Wind Turbine Developer: We want to put up a few ould wind turbines in the field below. For the ESB like. We'll be spendin' 50 million about the place while we're at it, by the way. Anyway, we'll want an ould licence.
-Local Authority Manager: Wind turbines? Grand. I'll send you out the forms. You know yourself - the same as always.

We'll be puttin' up five of them.
- Fire away.

You're sure that'll be OK? It's five like. Just want to be sure before we put the whole thing together and buy the gear and all.
- Relax. Sure haven't we done this dozens of times? You'll be grand.

Residents: Hey, Local Authority. These hoors are goin' to put up five fuckin' big wind turbines at the bottom of our gardens.
- So?

Well they agreed with us that it'd be three. Max. We're going to kick up a stink like you never smelt before. Marches, protests, Prime Time. You name it.
- Jayses.

Three months later:
GAA/WTD: OK Local Authority Manager, the whole project is ready to go - gear bought, contractors hired, starting next week. Would ya send us out that ould licence?
- Licence?

Yeah. The licence. For the turbines.
- How many turbines?

Five. Like we said. D'ya remember?
- Are you yanking me chain? Five my arse. Three. That's it.

Wha??
- I'm a fuckin' environmentalist. I ride a bike to work, ffs. D'ya think I'm going to be dragged onto Prime Time to defend puttin' five big fuckoff windmills in somebody's cabbage patch? Three and look happy. And my word is law.

But ... you said ... we asked ... what the f...  Listen here, ya half-arsed yahoo. It's Prime Time for you one way or the other. Wait'll they hear the phone call where you said five was grand.
-Oh f**k. Four then.

Are you makin' this up as you pedal along?
- Yeah. No. Three. Or six. But not till October. Maybe if you only ran them during the day. Put a big hedge in front of them. Build a shebeen for the residents. I don't know.

ESB: Ah f**k this; we're going to Wales. And taking our 50 million with us.
Residents: Yay!
Other residents: Hey! What happened to our turbines? And our 50 million?
Some fat cowboy: Me heart is broke.
The Taoiseach: It's a mess.
Whineline: It's a disgrace, Joe, so it is.
GAA/WTD: Now look what ya did. 50 million down the Dodder.
Local Authority Manager: Don't look at me. I don't make the law. I just make it up. Greedy b**tards.

[Billys Boots]

That sounds very familiar, and not just in relation to concerts. 

[blast05]

So where do you think the money will go if Element Power and others build their turbines ?


Presumably the money earned from the sale of electricity will go to the power companies, and there will be a 'rental' or operational fee paid to the turbine owners/operators.  Am I missing something?

The point raised was why spend/send billions out of the country on importing oil and gas when we have wind available. My point is that the money will leave the country anyway. The money going to land owners is peanuts in comparison

And do you actually think that the power generated is even intended for the Irish market in the first place (clue, the Conservative party in UK doesn't want to take rural vote backlash so better to import green power to met with committments)?

Do we not get most of our electricity needs (in RoI) from the Inter-connector at present - is the purpose of the inter-connector not to share generated power to avoid outages (right across Europe etc.)?  From speaking with the power generating community, over the years, generation of electricity is transboundary in the modern world, and has been for some time.  So, in short, I think that argument is irrelevant and a red herring in this discussion.

So, its OK to destroy the midlands landscape with an infrastructure that benefits next to no one other than a hedge fund that owns Element Power..... ultimately in order to export power to the UK where they are not willing to destroy their landscape ? Do you know that if all the proposed windfarms throughout the country were all built, that the total predicted power that would be generated from the entire stock of windfarms would be 9 times greater than the current annual demand of the entire country ?!

And who do you think is massively subsidising the construction of them ?

I'm assuming that anyone investing in the construction of any project will be expecting a return - in this case I've got no idea, but again I don't think it has any relevancy in a discussion whether it's important or not to build windfarms. 

Check your next electricty bill ..... you're typically contributing €10 per bill. Imagine if all of this money was assigned to R&D of tidal, wave, offshore wind, etc then we would be the world leaders within 5 years. A far better approach than ultimately giving the money to a hedge fund

Do you really think that they are green energies ?

Not sure what the definition of green energy is at present, but on the whole, yes. 

A typical wind turbine built on the side of a boggy mountain will during construction release a level of carbon from the peat/bog that would be dugaway that would take the turbine 22 years to 'negate'. This is not to mention the thousands of cubic metres of conreete etc. Renewable - yes. Green - no.

Do you understand the implications to all landowners within a 500m radius of one of these monster turbines?

I think so.

No construction will ever be allowed in that area. So farmer A is getting his annual few quid (which works out an lot lot less than they realise) while farmer B wants to built a slatted house (or house) in a field 400metres away .... won't be allowed despite farmer B never getting any compensation. An as an aside, what farmer A doesn't realise is that in 'signing-up' and thus allowing the construction to take place on his land, he has signed off on his entire land portfolio, i.e.: no construction will be allowed on his entire portfolio regardless of where the land is. This is causing revolt at the moment in many farmers in Offaly, Laois, Westmeath ... sold a pup. Only came to light when a guy in Laois wanted to sign over a site to his son to build a house

Do you have any real idea of how big these monster turbines are (clue: helicopters land on the hubs to allow engineers out to service them) ?

I've seen some of these up close, through work (though I should point out that my work is not really connected, so I don't consider myself to have a vested interest). 

Do you know what infra sound is ?

I've a qualification in Environmental Acoustics, so I presume you're talking about low frequency noise - if so, then I do.  ?

And the health implications ?

Do you actually have a vested interest or are you just uninformed ?

Neither.  I don't think I'd like to live very close to a wind turbine; similarly I wouldn't like to live close to a wastewater treatment plant, or a landfill site, or a manufacturing facility.  However, I recognise that I gain a benefit from each and all of them - my attitude is that people benefit from all of these infrastructures.  They have to be built somewhere, and sustainability usually determines that they're built in inhabited areas - as long as they're sited in places that are suitable, and that communities don't have to bear more than their fair share of that type of infrastructure, and that communities are compensated (in kind) for bearing the impacts of that type of infrastructure, then I don't think there should be such an outcry.  Everyone uses electricity; if we want to have it then we must have the infrastructure.

Introduce a setback distance of 2km or else build them off-shore and then i have no issue.

[Billys Boots]

Where does the money go?

Where does any of your money go - your phone bill is sent to you by a plc, your electricity bill is sent to you by a plc, your shopping money spent in Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury etc. goes to a plc.  Do you imagine much/any of it stays in the country?

Exporting?

A large percentage of the world's computer chips are manufactured in Intel, Leixlip - all of the environmental impacts of the Intel plants are borne by the community/environment in Leixlip.  Is this fair?  Are they complaining?  Most of the mushrooms grown by Monaghan Mushrooms are exported to Britain and the Continent - all of the environmental impacts of the MM plants are borne by the community/environment in Monaghan.  Is this fair?  Are they complaining?  Sheep farmers in the West of Ireland export most of their lambs to France - all of the environmental impacts of the sheep farming are borne by the community/environment in Mayo/Galway.  Is this fair?  Are they complaining?  Exporting is part of modern business - if Ireland is good for generating wind power (which it is, comparatively) then should we, as a nation, not exploit it to our benefit?

Costs?

Costs (inc. construction costs) are borne in all utility bills - why is this different?

Green Energy?

I answered the question I was asked - every situation is different in relation to environmental impact.  Our planning laws are supposed to protect us from building unsustainable infrastructure, such as turbines on ground prone to subsidence.  See what happens public officials when they implement legislation designed to protect innocent bystanders (cf. Garth Brooks). 

Neighbours?

I see what you're saying about the 2km setback, and I'd be inclined to agree with this - it's the job of planning officials to see that this is respected by the developers, and it's the duty of our citizens to support proper planning decisions by avoiding disruption of that system by political interference. 

Low frequency noise?

Yes I am aware of a raft of problems/complaints/issues in relation to health effects - most/all of which should be removed by a reasonable setback policy.  We need to be grownups about planning in Ireland - at present we're not. 

[blast05]

I am not debating about where the money goes. The context of my first comment was in response to 'Rossfans' comment about us spending/sending billions out of the country on oil and gas and that wind was going to change this. I am saying it will not ...and i think you are in agreement

Re Leixlip, mushrooms, sheep farmers ..... you can't be seriously trying to compare the impact on the landscape and environment with the impact of the proposed number of windfarms around the country ..... the Intel tide rose all boats, the windfarm tide would drown most.

Re the costs .... what i am referring to is the PSO levey on your utility bills - which increased by ~70% a few months back without any comment. Fair enough to have this once it is spent in the right places. In the UK ~6 months ago the government decided to stop all subsidies towards onshore wind farms and increase the subsidy for offshore windfarms (partly i'm sure cos good aul Paddy will provide them with what they want anyway without the Tories having to upset their rural heartlands. Why can't we do something simple and logical like that here ?)
It brings me back to the current windfarm proposals ....  9 times the electrictiy requirement of the country (and of course you would need a back up power option for 100% of countries requirement anyway for when wind doesn't blow)  ....... so, straight off, and knowing how this country operates and without going even 1 layer down through the onion, doesn't this not even sound a bit suspect and too easy ?? i.e.: massive returns with nothing for the taxpayer and easy to get planning (political appointees to An Bord Pleannala with every single one of them having a conflict of interest).

I agree that we need to be grown up about the whole debate in this country. I am none of:
- a farmer who could milk it or is bitter cos my land was overlooked
- a person who lives within even a few miles of where these industrial wind turbine monsters could be lcoated
- anti-establishment, against all development, have shares in any fossil fuel company, etc, etc

What i am is simply somebody who
- that if we have on-shore wind-development that is it not subsidised by the PSO levy
- that the set-back distance for any on-shore wind development is 10 times the height of the proposed turbine
- that all communities that could be impacted are listened to and engaged with in an open and transparent way
- that the planning process (An Bord Pleannala) rids itself of all people with obvious conflicts of interest.

Where does the money go?

Where does any of your money go - your phone bill is sent to you by a plc, your electricity bill is sent to you by a plc, your shopping money spent in Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury etc. goes to a plc.  Do you imagine much/any of it stays in the country?

Exporting?

A large percentage of the world's computer chips are manufactured in Intel, Leixlip - all of the environmental impacts of the Intel plants are borne by the community/environment in Leixlip.  Is this fair?  Are they complaining?  Most of the mushrooms grown by Monaghan Mushrooms are exported to Britain and the Continent - all of the environmental impacts of the MM plants are borne by the community/environment in Monaghan.  Is this fair?  Are they complaining?  Sheep farmers in the West of Ireland export most of their lambs to France - all of the environmental impacts of the sheep farming are borne by the community/environment in Mayo/Galway.  Is this fair?  Are they complaining?  Exporting is part of modern business - if Ireland is good for generating wind power (which it is, comparatively) then should we, as a nation, not exploit it to our benefit?

Costs?

Costs (inc. construction costs) are borne in all utility bills - why is this different?

Green Energy?

I answered the question I was asked - every situation is different in relation to environmental impact.  Our planning laws are supposed to protect us from building unsustainable infrastructure, such as turbines on ground prone to subsidence.  See what happens public officials when they implement legislation designed to protect innocent bystanders (cf. Garth Brooks). 

Neighbours?

I see what you're saying about the 2km setback, and I'd be inclined to agree with this - it's the job of planning officials to see that this is respected by the developers, and it's the duty of our citizens to support proper planning decisions by avoiding disruption of that system by political interference. 

Low frequency noise?

Yes I am aware of a raft of problems/complaints/issues in relation to health effects - most/all of which should be removed by a reasonable setback policy.  We need to be grownups about planning in Ireland - at present we're not.

[THE MIGHTY QUINN]

I'm confused. These protests aren't happening in west Belfast.

Maybe The Mighty Quinn can clear this up?

FWIW, if these people can't accept the wind tubines, I think they should stick a big Tesco on the land instead, or an abbatoir, or social housing or traveller housing.

I've no real problem with them. A guy tried to put a couple up a few miles away from where I live. I wasn't too bothered. Main protesters were farmers even though they can build a red tin riffed shed the size of a Tesco without ant planning approval or consultation. Just to clarify something I asked you some time ago about the number of Casement residents who would lose afternoon/ evening sunshine and how many hours they would lose. I have always said that I support their right to compensation or to be allowed to sell up and move.  Did you ever get that info?

[THE MIGHTY QUINN]

No.

So, you say people from your area protested about something?

You for real?

Not from my area. It was about 7 miles away.

[RadioGAAGAA]

On shore wind power is a waste of time and money.

With load factors well under 30%, the thing is not in any way viable without substantial govt grants.

I'm not going to touch relatively subjective issues like the "suffering"* it would cause the locals and how it would affect the landscape.



If you want consistent cheap electric and want confidence it will remain cheap in the future; the best medium term solution is nuclear fission. I don't expect to see many people agree with this though**




*sounds very much like hyperbole to me. The people in Gaza are suffering right now. Folks with a wind turbine a click away are not.

**I would also expect any criticism to contain plenty of references to Fukushima, Chernobyl and 3 mile island; which would say more about a lack of knowledge than anything else. How well do you think a MkI or MkII escort would do in a Euro NCAP test?

[Hardy]

Until we crack cold fusion, nuclear fission is absolutely the best option for cheap, clean, sustainable power generation. Except for Ireland. Think of the people who brought you brown envelope planning, Priory Hall, the HSE and the blind eye that doesn't want to see inconvenient violations. The thought of these people regulating a nuclear power industry here gives me the heebie jeebies.

Windscale/Sellafield's record wouldn't fill you with confidence in UK nuclear regulation either. Maybe we should build an interconnector to France.

[thejuice]

The best way forward is a mix of wind, tidal, solar (where viable) and micro nuclear generation.