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Off work for a few days over the Christmas Hols. I've followed Bellaghy's journey and success through twitter and videos from Jerome Quinn.  I've also been reading a few articles recently about Gweedore and their underage success which has fed into the senior side.  As well as that Mal McMullan tweeted about Derry's success in the Ulster Minor Club Comp. 

I decided to look further into the correlation between minor success and senior success. If we look at some of the Derry clubs that have also won the Ulster Minor Tournament, there is a clear correlation to triumph for the Senior teams.

Dungiven
Ulster Minor Champs: 1990 ; Ulster Senior Champs: 1997
County Champions: 1991 & 1997

Bellaghy
Ulster Minor Champs: 1991 & 1994 ; Ulster Senior Champs: 1994 (Finalists '96, 98, 05)
County Champions: 1994, '96, '98, '99, 00, '05 (Finalists: '95, '01, '03)

An Lub
Ulster Minor Champs: 1993 & 1995 ; Ulster Senior Champs: 2003 (Finalists '09)
County Champions: 2003 & 2009 (Finalists: 2002, '05, '06)

Ballinderry
Ulster Minor Champ: '96, '97, '01 & 08 ; Ulster Senior Champs: '01 & '13 (Finalists '06, '08)
County Champions: 1995, '01, '06, '08, 2011-13 (Finalists: '99,'00, '03, '10, '14)

Slaughtneil
Ulster Minor Champ: '98 ; Ulster Senior Champs: '14, '16, '17
County Champions: 2004, '14, '15, '16, '17 (Finalists: '08, '12)

Kilrea
Ulster Minor Champs: 2007
County Finalists: 2011

Of the Derry winners in the St Paul's tournament only Kilrea have yet to make the breakthrough at senior level.

Even looking at sides that have won the county minor title, an appearance in the Senior County final normally follows as well. Since the year 2000 the following teams have played in the county final:
Bellaghy (W2 L3), Ballinderry (W7 L4), An Lub (W2 L4), Slaughtneil (W5 L2), Glenullin (W1), Dungiven (L1), Coleraine (W2 L1), Kilrea (L1), Ballinascreen (L2), Lavey (L1)

Most of those teams have had victories in minor and u21 competitions prior to their appearance in the senior final. I believe only Glenullin and Coleraine didn't win county titles at either those two age groups.

The sides that have won minor or u21 (recently) and haven't made an appearance (yet) in a senior county final are Magherafelt and Glen.

Which takes me on to another comparison. Between the two most recent winners of the Ulster U21 tournament. Gweedore and Glen.  Glen won the competition three consecutive years prior to Gweedore's win.

There was a lot of emphasis on the age profile of the Gweedore side that won the senior championship and how that was the impetus for their senior side. Looking at Gweedore's victory in the Ulster Club C'ship, would those in Glen not wonder why they haven't reached a County Final (Yet) never mind a winning the Senior Ulster Club.

The Gweedore side that won the U21 title in Feb:

Gaoth Dobhair: Charles Doherty; Ciaran McHugh; Gary McFadden; Ryan Kelly; Conor McCafferty; Niall Friel; Neasán Mac Gíolla Bhride; Michael Carroll; Odhran McFadden-Ferry; Naoise Ó Baoill; Cian Mulligan; Daire Ó Baoill ; Seaghan Ferry; Gavin McBride; Eamonn Collum
Subs:
Conor Boyle

The Gweedore side that won the Seamus McFerran:
GAOTH DOBHAIR: Christopher Sweeney; Gary McFadden, Neil McGee, Christopher McFadden; Niall Friel, Eamonn McGee, Odhran McFadden-Ferry; Daire O Baoill, Odhran MacNiallais; Cian Mulligan, Naoise O Baoill, Daniel McBride; Eamonn Collum, Kevin Cassidy, Micheal Carroll
Subs: J Carroll, S Ferry, P McGee, J Boyle

I'm open to correction, but that's 8 players that started both finals. And one that came off the bench in the Senior Final. That is some influx of young players into the senior side in one season. Which is some achievement for the club.  I'd say if you compared the U-21 winning sides from Glen with the team that played against Lavey in the senior semi-final this year, you'd find a similar scenario.

Glen's underage trophy cabinet compares favourably with Gweedore's, and those lads would be further down the line in terms of playing senior football.  Is there a reason why their underage success translated into senior success? (yet)

What other factors come into play?

I know that TFAL is all about tradition and history playing a part.  Teams that have a history of winning or have players that know how to win.  McEntee also alludes to that in his Irish News column today.  Its also been referenced on the main Ulster Minor Club thread.

The loss of talent (ie Conor Glass) can play a part too.  Whether that be to University, drinking in Belfast, losing interest, moving away, Job, marriage etc.  Are there other talented players from those successful sides that have been lost to any of the above?

Age profile of the team – "The right mix of players" The youth of the Gweedore team was talked about a lot, though having Cassidy, McGees, McNiallais in the side was more important. Any club in the county would gladly take those players and expect success.

Final thought on this long ramble: How many people on here would back Glen to win the John McLaughlin, before Bellaghy or Lavey?   (Using these two clubs as they've fit the profile of history/tradition, as well as having won underage titles recently)

(*This is not a takedown of Glen, this is just looking at the link between underage and senior success – plus I'm off work for a few days and very bored*)

You mentioned Gweedore having 8 starters who tasted U21 success - from the team which was beaten in the Derry semi-final, Glen had 14 starters who had recent Under 21 success. Philip O'Connell is around 32, the next oldest 24 then right down to 18. Compare that with the 3 McGee's, Kevin Cassidy, their keeper, McNiallais, McFadden and 1 or 2 others, all who provide a very experienced spine. A vastly different age & experience profile to Glen.
The defeat to Lavey was disappointing but Glen will learn from it and move forward.

Concentrate your energies on your own club. Screen have also won recent minor titles with no senior success to show. The biggest parish in Derry if not Ulster, 20+ miles square, 99.9% nationalist, no bordering clubs fighting for players - if you're that bored over the holidays, take a long look at your own club ...

[Glen Maghera a prime example of minors transition - Several Ulster Minor Championships but can't make that crucial transition.]

Glen Maghera a prime example of minors transition - Several Ulster Minor Championships but can't make that crucial transition. 

Not sure who wins Armagh Minor Club Championships over the last 10 years, is it always Cross?

You can sure make a correlation between minor and senior but sometimes it can be over stated.  Moortown has done extremely well in the last couple of years at minor level and I'm sure they will also have high hopes in the next 4 years to win a Div 1 Championship title.

The 1st of that minor winning team won the Ulster 21 championship with ease last year. Seniors 1st year back in senior and finished mid table. Vast majority of top players i.e McFaul, Tallon, Mulholland, Dougan, Carville, Hegarty, O'Hara etc are still U21. Given where seniors are coming from, it won't be an overnight transition.

Wattys win Best Score of the Tournament from their only entry in the Top Ten... do you agree?
http://jeromequinnmedia.com/video/St-Pauls-201415/St-Pauls/Top-Ten-Best-Scores-at-St-Pauls-1415

Agreed!

[It just shouldn't be allowed in Ulster]

Catch yourself on. I don't give a monkeys what you lot do in the Cavan championship. It just shouldn't be allowed in Ulster. As the poster below pointed out Kerry amalgamations aren't allowed into Munster. And don't give me the number crap. Every county in Ireland has big clubs and small clubs. Last week Slaughtneil beat Omagh. I'm sure the numbers difference in the 2 clubs is vast. Also Moortown wouldn't exactly be a big club

This is NOT an official GAA competition.  It is a tournament run by the St Pauls club in Belfast(that has got permission from the GAA to do so).  It is up to them who they invite into it, and the criteria used, not some opinionated Derry folk.

Personally, I am against amalgamations.  I prefer when my own club goes alone even if it means a heavy defeat is inevitable.  It keeps players that might drift away about a bit longer. However, if the numbers don't add up then clubs have to amalgamate.

Exactly.

Played throuh December with the final on new years day. Nothing cheap about running a bus from Cavan to Belfast 3/4  times as well as feeding the Squad and management.

If I was from a club that won the tournament for the past 3 years i wouldn't care what any other County club was doing in all fairness.

So the jokes about Cavan people being tight with money are true after all. Having to pay the costs of having a team in Ulster is a great problem to have!

Why the issue with it? It gives players a chance of playing at a high standard rather then going alone in Divison 2 or Divison  3 Minor Championship.


Not all Clubs are amalgamted - Ramor weren't an amalgamation last year. They were hit by a flu bug before the Silverbridge Semi last year, I think they would have the Ulster Minor Club otherwise

It also helps the County Minor and U21 teams - amalgamations..

No real issue with it - don't care either way.
Just think it goes against the ethos of the our games. Some clubs have no choice due to lack of numbers - that's fair enough.

Less whinging about amalgamations this week, suppose if they win the replay the moaning will recommence.

Serious question - why the need for all these amalgamations at minor level in Cavan? From what I remember a few years ago a team won the league on their own before joining forces with another club for the championship. I can understand the need if the numbers aren't there but surely the top teams can stand on their own?

Serious arrogance!!!

You'd be well placed to talk about serious arrogance!

Omagh beat us because a lot of things went in their favour on the day.  9 games out of 10 we would have beaten them and be sitting in an Ulster final.

will the Donegal championship not be concluded in time?

Glen minors haven't lost a game in any competition (league or championship) since August 2010.

[Or are the Divisions just randomly drawn?]

What way are the divisions drawn?

Division 1 had teams from Tyrone, Dublin, Laois, Galway, Kildare, Kerry, Cork, New York and then 8 teams from host County Derry.

Is that the way it works every year, or is there any sort of relegation / promotion?  (For instance Burren from Down won Div 2, does that mean next years Down champs will be in Div 1?)

Or are the Divisions just randomly drawn?

They must be . . . how else can anyone explain Glen being 2nd in Derry's Division 2 league and being able to enter Division 5 of the All Ireland Feile (the closest any team got to them was 7 points).

I'm told the Derry teams placings were based on last year's Ulster Feile and this year's Derry Feile results, where Glen didn't win a match. Glen probably should've been in Div3/4, but not the club's doing.