I heard that the Cork players(football and hurling) will take all necessary action if the CB decision to revert back to the county selectors being appointed by the board rather than the manager is not changed.
There could be life in the auld dog yet Darbyo - it could be Hello again Billy !!!!!
I knew Billy wouldn't go away that handy !
Ridiculous that a manager can't choose his own selectors. This is one strike i'd support. County board should be kept away from team selection as much as possible
They'll be striking about going on strike next....
Fair play to them. Frank is up to his old tricks again I see. If this isn't changed no manager with any sort of backbone would take on the senior sides in Cork. Give it two years max, and Frank would be picking himself as one of the selectors on the hurling team. Complete madness.
Quote from: TBT on November 13, 2007, 02:44:41 PM
Fair play to them. Frank is up to his old tricks again I see. If this isn't changed no manager with any sort of backbone would take on the senior sides in Cork. Give it two years max, and Frank would be picking himself as one of the selectors on the hurling team. Complete madness.
GAA players are beginning to make Dublin Bus and the British Miners look like died the wool tories. Bloody hell, it's like the 80s all over again. Somebody breaks a finger nail and everyone's out on strike. We'll be crossing picket lines at U-12 matces next because the kids didn't get any biscuits with their tay.;D
I wonder was this a way to get rid of Billy morgan i.e. tell him he cant have his own selectors and so he would have to stand down out of principle. Save the county board from sacking him. Just a theory :)
Cork county board were always a funny crowd.
jeezuz H
Are the Cork county players the sporting equiv of CIE ?
FFS
There seems to be a very selfish mentality to Cork Gaels, whether they be players, administrators or just commoners. Administrators do what suits them, players do likewise.
The county board shafted Billy - now it's Billy's turn !
From www.eveningecho.ie.
The level of distrust between the county panels and the county board is very noticable as can be seen in the players protest a few years ago. I think this has as much to do with this as any evidence of wanting to have Billy Morgan stay on. Rebels Indeed ;) ;) ;)
Teams blast changes in selection process
THE Cork County Board will await official correspondence from the hurling and football panels before responding to the latest
players' strike threat. The danger of another player strike on Leeside has reared its head in response to the decision taken by the Cork County Board on October 9 regarding the appointment of team selectors. Club representatives at that meeting voted 81 to
14 to go back to the system where a board committee picks both the manager and his selectors. In a joint statement by the hurlers and footballers released to the media, the players insist that they would be "willing to take action necessary to oppose" that system.
Only last week Billy Morgan revealed he would not be seeking reappointment as football manager due to the County Board decision.
The board, through PRO Bob Ryan, were this morning unwilling to comment on the statement until they are in receipt of correspondence from the players. "No one was in contact prior to releasing the statement," explained Mr Ryan. "Given that there was
no prior knowledge the Cork County Board can't comment until such time as the statement is received." Mr Ryan did however
explain that the decision came about from a motion by a club delegate that was voted on by all club representatives. "The working of the Cork County Board is that a proposal comes from a club delegate and it is voted on democratically. "This is what happened and, naturally, the County Board are then bound by the result of that vote," he added. Hurling manager Gerald McCarthy is not affected by the provision as he still has a season of his two year term to run.
Bit more of the players statement from www.irishexaminer.com
Cork players in new 'strike' threat
By Michael Moynihan
THE SPECTRE of another GAA players strike in Cork loomed large last night after a dramatic escalation in the row over the appointment of selectors to the Rebels' hurling and football management teams.
The county senior hurling and football panels issued a statement to this newspaper stating their outright opposition to the Board's new procedures for appointing county management teams. The statement warned that Cork's intercounty players would "take all action necessary to oppose this system."
The strongly worded opposition to the Board's new procedures warned the players "are absolutely united and determined in relation to this issue and are duty bound to take whatever action is necessary to organise the new system.
"We are all agreed that we are not going to partake in it or the county teams while this system is in place, regardless of who might be appointed under it."
In recent years the managers of the Cork hurling and football teams had the right to appoint their own selectors and backroom staff, but a Board meeting last month decided to revert to the old system, whereby the County Board would decide on the selectors who would work with the manager.
The decision prompted outgoing Cork football boss Billy Morgan to withdraw his interest in returning to the post for 2008, stressing he would not work in such circumstances. The change does not apply in 2008 to hurling boss Gerald McCarthy because he was appointed last year and has another season of his term to run, but the new football manager will have to work with selectors appointed by the board.
Last night's joint statement by the hurlers and footballers has added an explosive new twist to the row. Much attention will be focused on their declaration that they would be willing to "take all action necessary to oppose this system", which is interpreted as a threat to withdraw services, or strike. The move is completely unrelated to the GPA strike threat over Government grant payments.
The Cork statement includes a motion the players intend to have tabled at county convention next month which would reverse the recent decision and revert to the system whereby managers pick their own selectors and backroom staff.
This is not the first time there has been a stand-off between administrators and players in the Rebel County. The Cork hurlers went on strike in late 2002 in protest at conditions in which they were training and playing, and were joined later by their footballing counterparts. After the strike the hurlers reached four All-Ireland finals in-a-row, winning two, while the footballers reached two All-Ireland semi-finals and this year's final.
The statement underlines that the players "object in the strongest possible terms" to the system recently adopted by the County Board for the appointment of selectors for Cork hurling and football teams.
IT reads: "We are unanimously agreed that this is a backward step for Cork and that we are not prepared to go along with it. We have reluctantly resolved to take all action necessary to oppose this system and we feel that it is vital that we register our opposition to the system and take any action necessary before anyone is appointed under it.
"We have no desire to be taking this stance, but we feel we have no option. We believe that this proposal was not properly debated by the clubs and we were, almost to a man, unaware of the proposals before they were passed.
"There is no doubt in our minds that we will not be able to compete let alone win with this arrangement. We cannot hope to have quality management teams in place in the future and we are calling on the Board at its annual convention to reconsider its stance on this system and to do away with it. As everybody knows, even with the best management and structures, it is difficult to win. Without them it's almost impossible.
"We have written to the secretary of the board today asking him to include the following motion on the agenda for the county convention: 'That the recently adopted system for choosing selectors for the Cork senior hurling and football teams be abandoned in favour of a system where the manager picks his own selectors and/or backroom team'.
"We have also decided to have our panel members bring this motion to their respective clubs, as a matter of urgency. No doubt there may be some technical difficulty with notice or procedures in this regard but we are sure, given the gravity of the situation, that the board will see its way to having a further debate on the matter. We would see it as vital that a debate would take place among Cork GAA people and among their clubs, before a proposal like this could be adopted as we feel that this system will damage not just our teams, but future generations of Cork hurlers and footballers."
The statement adds: "We wish to be clear about this; if somebody is appointed as a selector by the board and/or its sub-committee in the face of this statement and our motion, we will not be the parties creating a difficult situation or a stand-off. It is open to the board to reconsider its decision and allow us all to go forward together into next year and beyond. We are absolutely united and determined in relation to this issue and are duty bound to take whatever action is necessary to organise the new system.
"We are all agreed that we are not going to partake in it or the county teams while this system is in place, regardless of who might be appointed under it."
Who's laughing now ?
The Cork players are correct IMHO.
FFS if this is the way it is going to be what is the point in bringing in a manager, the CB should just pick the team. It smacks of the CB wanting to have a say in player selection, training etc.
Normally I wouldnt be for strikes as such, as per the GPA, but the CB have left the Cork players with very little option. Perhaps the CB want to install some of their 'Yes' men in the top positions?
Cork county board are definitely way out on a limb here - they should call a meeting - reverse the decision and dress it up in some diplomatic way and save a lot of embarassment.
QuoteCork county board are definitely way out on a limb here - they should call a meeting - reverse the decision and dress it up in some diplomatic way and save a lot of embarassment.
Yep, they should but they won't. They must have known the players would be less than pleased with the decision but they went ahead anyway. I reckoned it was (in part at least) a way of getting Billy out but they miscalculated on the reaction of the hurlers. Or maybe they were trying to manufacture this kind of end game, whatever their reasons it has back fired badly and will only distance themselves further from the Cork panels.
Remember it was not the officers of the county board that came up with this decision, but the club delegates voting on a motion put forward by one club. So I think the issue here is an instance of one of the weaknesses of democracy - everyone has a vote, whether or not they're informed enough to use it wisely and whether or not they are diligent enough to consider all predictable consequences.
That's a long winded way of saying that when it comes to a contest between a conspiracy theory and an incompetence theory, I usually assume the later. I don't think it was a case of the powers that be conspiring to shaft Billy. Instead I'd guess it was someone coming up with what they thought was a good idea - give power back to the people, etc. and presenting it with a persuasive argument. The majority of delegates then think "yerra that's a great idea - I'm for that" without considering consequences like Billy getting disgruntled, the players going on strike, etc. I'm sure this wouldn't have been debated at club level in advance , with the club delegates going to the meeting with a mandate to vote one way or the other.
Perhaps a contrarian proposal will be put to the next Co. Board meeting, couched in such a way as to save face and this time with a bit of advance lobbying to ensure everyone does the right thing. That is unless everybody is now pissed off with this latest exhibition of player power and decides to dig in their heels. Who knows.
Well the players are proposing a motion themselves to that effect Hardy and the panel members are to approach their clubs to get support for it. At least that's my understanding of it, you're probably right that simple incompetence had a large part to play but like any GAA decision, politicking and subterfuge played a part too. If memory serves me there wasn't too much debate about this at the time and that seems strange too me.
Hardy any regular attendee of meetings will know that a strong position taken by the chair or committee can seriously influence a general vote. I wasn't there obviously but I'd imagine if the Cork County Board opposed such a motion they could have sunk it.
Point of Information: Frank Murphy is from Kilkenny.
Quote from: muppet on November 15, 2007, 11:45:05 AM
Hardy any regular attendee of meetings will know that a strong position taken by the chair or committee can seriously influence a general vote. I wasn't there obviously but I'd imagine if the Cork County Board opposed such a motion they could have sunk it.
That's true.
Quote
Point of Information: Frank Murphy is from Kilkenny.
Is that true?
Muppet is right - if a strong position is taken by a respected person on the board, then the delegates will go with the flow in most cases and not give sufficient consideration to what they are voting on nor more importantly the consequences of their vote.
I acknowledge the previous points about a strong position being taken, but in fairness it was carried by a large majority. A lot of clubs are very independent minded, whereas there is no doubt a well presented motion would get more support than a fudged one, the size of the majority is significant.
We all know that the Cork lads are the best in country at moaning, there is no doubt that Donal Og is in there stirring it up. They probably figured that whole grants issue will be sorted out long before Christmas, so what other reason can we use to strike!! (Yes I know I am cynical)
Theres a feeling in Cork that the County Board have only been waiting in the long grass to regain control over the county teams. "Bad" results this year have given them the excuse to say that the system is not working and we'll go back to the old method.
This is from www.examiner.com. Its interesting how the county board are quoting procedures etc. Also note the differing views of John Allen and Larry Tomkins.
County Board: Cork players' motion can't be debated
By Michael Moynihan
THE impasse between the Cork senior hurling and football panels and the Cork County Board took another twist yesterday with the revelation that a motion which both panels want debated at the county convention next month cannot be submitted for discussion.
The players' statement, released exclusively to this newspaper on Monday evening, contained the text of a motion dealing with the issue which has divided players and administrators — the decision to deny county football and hurling managers the right to appoint their own selectors.
The players' motion read as follows: "That the recently adopted system for choosing selectors for the Cork senior hurling and football teams be abandoned in favour of a system where the manager picks his own selectors and/or backroom team".
However, sources close to the county board suggested yesterday that matters relating to the appointment of managers and selectors of county teams are the prerogative of the county board rather than the convention, and accordingly, decisions made in that regard may not be changed at the convention.
However, the issue may be raised for debate at the convention under the heading of 'any other business', even if no binding changes can be made to the existing system as a result of any such discussion.
Yesterday former Cork managers weighed in on opposite sides of the debate.
John Allen, who steered the county to All-Ireland success in 2005, said: "It does not surprise me that the Cork hurlers and footballers have come out so strongly against the board's decision to pick the selectors from now on.
"For too many years the Cork hurlers and footballers have been poorly treated. For too many years players who showed any modicum of opinion were quickly discarded and for too many years there's been an us and them situation . . . Power and the re-possession of power is, in my opinion, the reason that the county board decided to rush through a motion that would put them in a position of control again."
However, former Cork football manager Larry Tompkins said: "There's a time when the players maybe have to take a step back as well, and just think about playing football rather than getting too involved in the nitty-gritty of picking managers or selectors."
Tompkins said he would favour a compromise system, whereby a manager would pick two selectors and the county board could pick another two.
A new idea! Aboloish all county boards and let the players run the organisation. They can pick their own teams by vote, decide who they want to play, where and when, organise their own sponsors and put what they like on their hurls. Then they will have nothing to complin about because it will be all their own fault!
Great post by Hardy - you are in great ould form these days.
A point for people to think about: Most people I know involved in the GAA have no interest in going to meetings or discussing motions for club AGM's or county conventions. I suppose that's fine for them. They should realise though that by not taking an interest they are totally abdicating responsibility. It's like giving out about the government but not bothering to get registered to vote. It contributes to some silly proposals getting through. The glaring one for me is that we almost banned consecutive handpasses half an hour after we opened up Croker! People are entitled to not take an interest. It's the crying afterwards that I'm not so sure about.
Donal says "You don't get paid for this, so in a way it's not a strike. "
WTF is going on? Is this the same Donal thats a member of the GPA?
From www.eveningecho.ie. Where to now??
McCarthy is Rebel selector
Exclusive by Éamonn Murphy
TEDDY MCCARTHY is the big name appointment as Cork football selector for 2008 . The dual legend is joined by Mick O'Loughlin, Diarmuid O'Donovan and Liam Hodnett. The quartet of selectors will join incoming boss Teddy Holland. It is hoped the appointment of the selection committee will help end a stand-off between the Cork players and the Cork County Board over the vote to strip managers of the right to pick selectors. An agreement was reached between new manager Teddy Holland and the board in this case
where both had an input into picking the selectors. Diarmuid O'Donovan (St Nick's) is a former minor coach and was a selector
alongside Teddy Holland from 1998 to 2001. Liam Hodnett (St Finbarr's) was a senior selector alongside Holland when Billy Morgan was manager from 1993 to 1995. He was also involved at U21 level, and at minor in 2004 and 2005 alongside Diarmuid O'Donovan.
Bishopstown's Mick O'Loughlin also has experience at senior and minor level, and is a link to the fine U21 side of the past four years. Teddy McCarthy is the surprise pick among the selectors as the Sars/Glanmire clubman has predominantly been involved as a
hurling coach.
Well I cannot see how any of the players can object to this selection commitee - all know their football. Of course a few of the present panel may be ex-county players very soon and not before time.
Quote from: Tatler Jack on December 03, 2007, 09:01:11 PM
Well I cannot see how any of the players can object to this selection commitee - all know their football. Of course a few of the present panel may be ex-county players very soon and not before time.
You obviously dont have a clue. Teddy Mc is a hurling man. Done a lot of hurling coaching with various clubs. Nothing to do with football since his retirement as far as I know. O Donavan was the mnior coach of the winning U21 sides and won zip with them. Universally seen as a poor coach. O Loughlin, nice fella by all accounts. Must be close on 70 at this stage . Hodnett not involved for yrs.
These guys are there because they couldn't get anyone else. Tony Leahy wasn't even interviewed .
Well depends on what you take as the role of the selectors - while Billy was in charge it was obviously to rubber stamp what he said and I doubt if they had much input into coaching. Teddy Mac will be surprised he knows little about football!! I saw all the minor teams that O'Donovan was in charge of and yes I agree that there were games possibly lost through wrong tactics but he should know the players that have come through minor at this stage and perhaps there is a need to look outside the panel that has been there for the past few years. As for O'Loughlin's age do not know why it is a factor - Micko is over 70 and nobody is saying he is too old.
Perhaps others did not want to be selectors but surely Billy shares some of the blame for the mess. He did not say after the AI whether or not he was interested in staying on and then when the county board voted that the manager would no longer appoint his own selectors he takes umbrage and says he was resigning because of this decision. The democratic process of the county board was fine for Billy when he was selected by it but not acceptable when he does not like it.
To be honest I do not see Holland and his team having a chance not because they are not up to the job but their position has been undermined by various self interests ranging from GPA, Billy to sections of the county board.
Both hurling and football panels have withdrawn!!
From irish examiner
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=50013-qqqx=1.asp (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=50013-qqqx=1.asp)
Quote from: stephenite on December 10, 2007, 02:17:56 AM
Both hurling and football panels have withdrawn!!
From irish examiner
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=50013-qqqx=1.asp (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=50013-qqqx=1.asp)
I presume this means they're no longer entitled to any of that grant money.
The GAA should rush through the allocation of these funds. It'd be hilarious if they did and poor Donal Og didn't get any. He'll be heating the house with a candle again this christmas. Poor lad
This is a very interesting one, by all accounts the CB have widespread support on this issue. While I think the CB was very wrong in making the decision it made and worse again, for the wrong reasons. It was voted through (twice) by the clubs, unlike a few years ago I think the Cork players have misjudged the feelings on the ground and we may have 2 entirely new Cork panels for 2008. Or none at all, as I'm reliably told a number of the lads next in line won't tog off for the county. Interesting times.
This strike by the Cork hurlers and footballers raises a lot of questions, if Donal Og & Co. stand their ground. If Cork don't play in the National Leagues, will the footballers be relegated to Division 4 for 2009 and will the hurlers also be relegated. If the strike is still there at Munster Championship time, will the Munster Council make a new draw for the Championships, or will Tipperary get a bye into the Munster Hurling Final. What will be the position of Cork's Minor and Under 21 teams?. What about Camogie and Ladies Football. Have the strikers really thought this one out?.
QuoteThis is a very interesting one, by all accounts the CB have widespread support on this issue. While I think the CB was very wrong in making the decision it made and worse again, for the wrong reasons. It was voted through (twice) by the clubs,
I've come a little late into this...but why in the name of Jesus are the county players striking when an issue has been voted on twice!
Ridiculous state of affairs. How do these panels expect to overturn a convention vote without convincing the clubs to change their minds?
Agree with you there Marsden - how do these panels expect to get their way on this one ?? I think the county board will stand up to them and somebody is going to have to climb down.
I'd say there wouldn't be much sad to see no Cork team next year! I can't see it coming to that though, somebody will have to give in.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on December 11, 2007, 05:16:18 PM
I'd say there wouldn't be much sad to see no Cork team next year! I can't see it coming to that though, somebody will have to give in.
Not even their thousands of loyal supporters???
Typical small minded begrugdery there lad, you're not on the Cork CB by any chance are ya???
It will be a major setback to our 3-in-a-row hopes if Cork's strongest team is not put out to test us early in the year. We need the odd tough game in the Munster final to set us up for a full on assault on Sam come September.
But seriously C'mon Cork (and I dont say those words lightly) get this mess sorted out and let the managers pick their own selectors. Frank Murphy wields too much power as it is in Cork.
Quote from: stevetharlear on December 13, 2007, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on December 11, 2007, 05:16:18 PM
I'd say there wouldn't be much sad to see no Cork team next year! I can't see it coming to that though, somebody will have to give in.
Not even their thousands of loyal supporters???
Typical small minded begrugdery there lad, you're not on the Cork CB by any chance are ya???
If the players have the support of thousands of loyal supporters or the clubs the convention would never have voted this way in the first place surely to God?
Heres a solution that the County Board could try.
Right lads - you want the manager to pick his own selectors etc. Heres what we propose.
We will hand over control of the entire intercounty scene from juvinile grade up. And by the way, we mean entire! You organise and arrange everything from sponsorship, fixtures, transport arrangments, payment of expenses etc. Of course you'll also have to arrange your own finances, rental of grounds etc.
If your the boys with the say your also the boys with the responsabilities.
OK lads? enjoy!
Quote from: stevetharlear on December 13, 2007, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on December 11, 2007, 05:16:18 PM
I'd say there wouldn't be much sad to see no Cork team next year! I can't see it coming to that though, somebody will have to give in.
Not even their thousands of loyal supporters???
Typical small minded begrugdery there lad, you're not on the Cork CB by any chance are ya???
There's no need for sarcasm. :D
This is from todays examiner (www.irishexaminer.com). Looks like its getting to pee or get off the pot time. If the issue isn't resolved the county board can play for time and withdraw from the competition or they can go nuclear, naming a panel and looking for suspensions if they don't turn up. Should be an interesting week.
03 January 2008
Cork's clash with LIT rescheduled as players' strike goes on
By Michael Moynihan
THE Waterford Crystal Senior Hurling Tournament game between Cork and Limerick Institute of Technology scheduled for Sunday next has been rescheduled as attempts to resolve the stand-off on Leeside continue. The game is now fixed for next Thursday under lights in Páirc Uí Rinn. Both Cork senior squads have withdrawn from inter-county activity, but while the footballers are on a team holiday in South America at the moment, the hurlers have the early-season Waterford Crystal tournament to contend with. It is not the first game affected by the stand-off — the hurlers had a pre-Christmas challenge game against UCC called off as a result of the row — but it is the first official fixture threatened by the dispute between the players and the county board.
While there have been no formal discussions between the two parties since the footballers left, informal discussions are being pursued in an attempt to resolve the impasse. If the game is not played next Thursday, however, then Cork will not face any sanctions from the Munster Council. "We'd be optimistic that a resolution can be reached," said Munster Council spokesman yesterday. "To that end the teams have agreed to play Thursday night. "If a team doesn't fulfil a fixture then the regulations provide that they're excluded from the rest of the competition, but there are no repercussions for the championship later in the year, and there aren't any fines imposed either. "Every year we have a team that isn't able to participate — Limerick are away so they can't play in the Waterford Crystal, the Cork and Kerry footballers are on holidays as well. We're quite used to teams pulling out of the secondary competitions, given the time of year, and their reasons for pulling out wouldn't need to be outlined in detail to us."
However, if Cork select a panel for the game and those players do not make themselves available, then they may be in line for suspension. The GAA rules provide the option of punishing players who do not turn out for their county when selected.
The Cork county board played politics with their IC teams and they underestimated the players resolve. This is a mess of their own making, though I think the players could have initially taken a less militant stance also. Nevertheless the players are correct to demand the best possible back room support and the motivation for the county boards action has to be questioned. They then compound their initial mistake by appointing a football management team that no-one in Cork would regard as acceptable. Whatever about the hurlers the footballers ambitions for 08 have been seriously damaged.
Somebody is going to lose face here and I don't think the players are going to back down - as far as they are concerned Billy has been shafted - Billy is the Messiah who last year took them to the promised land only to meet God's team in the final !!
He took them on other trips to the land of milk,honey and Sam Maguire before this as well - so you just simply don't piss on a man like this and expect the players to turn thre other cheek now can you ??
There is more to this that just loyalty to Billy. There has been a history of disharmony between the county board and the inter county panels. Billy's departure and they way it was dealt with was just the straw that broke the camels back. Even as a Kerryman I have to disagree with his treatment.
IMO this boils down to one thing - respect. The intercounty panels in Cork feel as if they get no real recognition from the county board and in particular the football panel is regarded by some elements of the Cork hierarchy as a distraction that could be done without.
QuoteIMO this boils down to one thing - respect
.
Maybe but respect is earned not demanded. The change in system of appointing selectors was not just the view of the county board executive but was voted on twice by all county board delegates. Thats democracy and the players should have accepted it. Of course there is a lot more going on and players (and GPA), Morgan, County Board must alll accept the blame, It is interesting that the previous strike by Cork players was after they had a bad year and many in Cork felt it was a way of deflecting the blame off themselves, Its a bit the same now as the hurlers had a poor enough 2007 and while the footballers got to the AI final they failed to give Kerry a game - in fact they were lucky to get to the final and I would say there were 7 or 8 better teams last year than Cork.
As for the supposed issue about appointing selectors - does it really matter. Morgan had selectors who had no power and little enough football knowledge. Holland has been allowed a veto over the appointed selectors so one assumes he is happy with them. The problem is Billy - great servant to Cork but now belives the county football team is his and his alone. He is answerable to no one, has pissed off the local media and while I do not doubt his committment I and a lot more feel he is not the person to revive Cork football. If Cork were playing in Ulster they wouldnot get next or near a Munster final.
Then there are those that see this as a chance to settle scores with Frank Murphy but "sin scéal eile"
I agree Morgan wasn't the man to lead Cork to an AI but I don't believe that any of the top managers in either code would accept selectors being hoisted upon them. For example Teddy MacCarthy has had no involvement in football management since retiring, so what exactly is he bringing to the party? And how can the players have a good working relationship with a management team that allowed themselves go forward in the middle of the strike? The players will look on these guys as CB lackeys whether it is the case or not. The whole thing is a mess but the CB created it by going about their business in an underhand manner.
Quote from: Zulu on January 03, 2008, 10:45:54 PM
IThe whole thing is a mess but the CB created it by going about their business in an underhand manner.
Forgive my ignorance, but is it not a case of a massive majority of all club delegates backing the decision by the County Board?
QuoteForgive my ignorance, but is it not a case of a massive majority of all club delegates backing the decision by the County Board?
That's correct but there was little or no debate on this before it was put before the delegates, the CB had to know how the players would react to this but went ahead anyway. Cork clubs are sick of the attitude of Cork county managers to club fixtures and the availability of their players, which is fair enough. And the CB wanted to get rid of Billy Morgan and get back the power they lost in the last strike. These factors and the fact that many club delegates will vote whatever way the executive tell them and not necessarily how their club mandates them has led to this majority vote.
The propensity of county managers to demand the cancellation of club fixtures and player availability are genuine concerns but they should be sorted out by discussion and agreement between county managements and the CB, not by getting CB selectors onto the management teams of county teams.
I find it very hard to believe that clubs in Cork are willing to blindly led by the County Board executive to the extreme of both Senior teams going on strike - if the clubs were not supportive of the County Boards stance there players would not still be on strike.
I find it so hard to believe as to be 99.9% sure you're talking out your hole to be honest
I for one would be fully supportive of the County Boards decision on this one, not that I agree with selectos been forced upon Managers but that the vote was taken and the club delegates knew fine well what they were voting for and what the reaction would be, if we start allowing management team selections to be dominated by players we may as well all give up.
You mention that many delegates vote contrary to any mandate given to them by their club, is there proof of this? Surely it's not done by secret ballot so would be fairly easy to gauge which percentage are rogue voters hellbent on provoking poor auld Sean Og and his ilk
QuoteI find it so hard to believe as to be 99.9% sure you're talking out your hole to be honest
Always good to start a discussion with a pig ignorant comment like that. I'd also wager I know a bit more about the goings on in Cork than you do. In saying that since I'm not on the Cork county board, a member of either panel or a Cork club delegate, I can only give my opinion based on my knowledge of the scene down there and from what I'm told by friends closer to the heart of it.
QuoteI find it very hard to believe that clubs in Cork are willing to blindly led by the County Board executive
It is generally club delegates that vote on these things not clubs (I know I've never been asked my opinion before my club delegate voted on anything) and many of these lads have been involved in committees for years and have built up relationships with other lifelong committee men like Frank or Bob Honahan,many would also have ambitions to climb the administrative ladder. As a result many (not all) can be easily convinced to vote a certain way (doesn't pay to cross Frank if you want to progress), add in the fact that many club delegates were keen to take down the county managers a peg or two and it is clear that a vote from this group wasn't necessarily made in the best interests of the Cork senior teams.
QuoteYou mention that many delegates vote contrary to any mandate given to them by their club, is there proof of this?
No I didn't I said this........
Quotethe fact that many club delegates will vote whatever way the executive tell them and not necessarily how their club mandates them
So to clear this up for you as it seems you don't actually read other peoples posts I said delegates may not vote as mandated by their clubs not that they never do. And I know that three friends of mine heavily involved in their respective clubs have told me that there was no debate on this issue in any of their clubs. So it appears that some clubs never mandated their delegates one way or the other, and the players unnecessarily militant stance probably had delegates backs up for the second vote. As is the case in most disputes the blame for this mess is shared between both parties but the Cork board must take most of the blame as they went down this path not for the best of Cork GAA but to wrestle back power from the players.
Feel free to respond Stephenite if you have any issue with what I've said but keep your insults to yourself as I've no intention in getting into a childish debate peppered with personal abuse.
OK, I'd be 99.9% sure you're talking rubbish, lying, or just making it up. Using some sort of mock outrage at language used on an Internet discussion forum is just a childish attemt to deflect from what I was getting at, pathetic. ::)
I do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates - and upon checking this with a guy who is on the committee of a prominent Cork City GAA club he has confirmed that as far as he is aware the majority of clubs have discussed it and his club for one are happy for the County Board to resolve the issue without being seen to climbdown in the eyes of the public. He went on to tell that there is great anger amongst the grass roots ( a well worn term this last few months) at the players for their actions and disgust at what they perceive is an attempt to further undermine the well established basic structures of the GAA in Cork. They had support for the first strike, they think this is one is an over reaction and think that the players will eventually back down.
You're second ridiculous section regarding the fact I deliberatley misquoted is as above completley childish and ridiculous - you knew full well what I was saying and the fact that it was not quoted word for word does not mean my original point was incorrect or wrong.
I am happy to continue this debate also and for the record "you're talking out your hole" hardly constitutes personal abuse in my opinion, I will tone it down if only not to give you any further opportunity to try and deflect from what I am trying to say using you're holier than thou attitude to distract from the real point.
A few guys here who are anti Billy have said that Billy is not the man to revive Cork football - Forgive my ignorance but did Cork not get to the AI final last year ?? But for a brilliant Kerry team ( which history will show is as good as the great IF NOT BETTER than the great Kerry team of the late 70's and 80's ) and a jaywalking display by the goalkeeper,Cork would have been in contention.
Ok if you don't like Billy on a personal level, just say so - but give him some credit for his wonderful achievements !
There are few men who have given as much to Cork football and the GAA in general - when you have contributed half as much then, you might have just cause to criticise him !
I hate it when a Gael like Billy is just dismissed as being a trouble maker etc etc by people who aren't in a position to criticise.
Sephenite, it wasn't rightous indignation or mock outrage on my part I simply prefer to discuss issues in a mature fashion and beginning your post by telling another poster that they are talking through their hole (especially when you are dependent on information from a friend) is immature and not conducive to an adult debate. I hope I've made my point and you can accept that, so I'll return to the issue itself.
However I'm not sure if there is much point in discussing this with you as you have repeated two points in both your posts namely....
QuoteI'd be 99.9% sure you're talking rubbish, lying, or just making it up
and
QuoteI do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates
So it seems you won't even entertain the possibility that any of the points I have made could be valid and based on facts. You go on to say that....
QuoteI am happy to continue this debate also and for the record "you're talking out your hole" hardly constitutes personal abuse in my opinion, I will tone it down if only not to give you any further opportunity to try and deflect from what I am trying to say using you're holier than thou attitude to distract from the real point.
Yet you have made no points other than to say.....
QuoteI do not believe for one second that this issue would have reached this serious a level without the committees of each clubs having discussed it by now and not just leave it up to the whims of the delegates
Which you say is backed up by a friend in Cork GAA circles, i.e you have not made one even semi-factual point in this debate so far but have only given your opinion that you don't believe the scenario I have painted. So how am I trying to distract from the real point when you have made none. I'm the only one(so far) who has made any kind of argument as to why I hold my position, it is you who hasn't engaged in the debate preferring to simply cover your ears and shout I don't believe you, your lying.
This friend of yours who claims that the grassroots are against the players sounds like some of the lads here who claimed the grassroots were against the GPA. And like them he can't know what everyone thinks, I have plenty of friends involved in the GAA down in Cork and while very few support the players strike none of them support the CB. The general opinion of people I know is that both sides should grow up and get this sorted out. In saying that to a man they all disagree with what the board did and how it was achieved, everyone I spoke to on this issue felt that the board pulled a stroke, they manipulated the ill feeling that club delegates had for the county management teams to get this through. Like I said in a previous post I know of at least three clubs who didn't debate this issue, this is a fact whether you believe me is neither here nor there.
Cork club delegates voted to support this motion twice, that is a fact but the process and motivations of individuals can only be speculated on by you or me, your opinion is no more factually correct than my own in this regard. But from all I can deduce from my sources, which are fairly numerous and from my own experience in Cork GAA this stinks of underhanded dealings designed to decrease IC management power in Cork while increasing CB power. CB members are elected to do what's best for the GAA in a fair and open manner this hasn't happened here. However I'd accept that the players have gone about their business in the wrong way and I feel the strike was the wrong move but I'd strongly suspect that they would have been left with no other option by this board anyway, it seems to be the only thing they understand.
QuoteThere are few men who have given as much to Cork football and the GAA in general - when you have contributed half as much then, you might have just cause to criticise him !
Well we may as well just pack up this board if you can't criticise people unless you have played in and coached teams to AI finals. I would and have heavily criticsed Billy over the past few years for his handling of the Cork football panel, that is my opinion based on what I have seen, it is nothing personal and I have never resorted to any kind of personal abuse towards Billy. I know Orangeman that Billy is a bit of a hero of yours but while I accept he has done wonderful things for Cork football I feel he has done a pretty poor job with a talented bunch of players these past few years.
Quote from: stephenite on January 04, 2008, 02:36:19 AM
I find it very hard to believe that clubs in Cork are willing to blindly led by the County Board executive to the extreme of both Senior teams going on strike - if the clubs were not supportive of the County Boards stance there players would not still be on strike.
I find it so hard to believe as to be 99.9% sure you're talking out your hole to be honest
I for one would be fully supportive of the County Boards decision on this one, not that I agree with selectos been forced upon Managers but that the vote was taken and the club delegates knew fine well what they were voting for and what the reaction would be, if we start allowing management team selections to be dominated by players we may as well all give up.
You mention that many delegates vote contrary to any mandate given to them by their club, is there proof of this? Surely it's not done by secret ballot so would be fairly easy to gauge which percentage are rogue voters hellbent on provoking poor auld Sean Og and his ilk
Stephenite,
I'm from Cork and your ignorance on this matter is staggering. No club in Cork would dare be openly hostile to the CCB because of the consequences wrt being starved of championship fixtures, underage players having difficulty making sides,having to travel to inconvenient locations for championship games. This is well established. In Cork, the CCB proposes policy and the clubs accept with out question. This is the tradition. To suggest that the managment team selectiosn is dominated by players is simply idiotic. The players want nothing to do with the selection of management sides. This is the managers prerogative in every other County. Having the present system in place means that it's simply impossible for a good managment side to be put in place. Case in point- the current senior football management. It's a joke selection. Its not beyond the bounds o possibility that if this isn't solved that nextyear the CCB will be unable to find a management for the hurling side. Nobody with a braincell would touch the job.
Zulu - Billy is far from being a hero of mine - most of my heros come from a team that regularly stuff Cork - I am simply pointing out that he has been there, done that etc etc etc - who else has done the same ???
He got Cork to an AI final last year ?
Who got Cork there previously ??? Who else has won AI with Cork in the past 20 years ???
But all you can do is criticise him ?
I'm sure he has plenty of faults - we all do - but is there anything complimentary you would like to say ??
I'd say the day Cork beat Meath, there were plenty of people ( and maybe even yourself ) was singing Billy's praises and slapping him on the back ??? ;) ;)
QuoteZulu - Billy is far from being a hero of mine
Sorry Orangeman I thought you told me before that he was. As for your defense of him and his managerial record, you are right he has enjoyed great success and has done invaluable work for football in Cork, but he is not the only one. And we all need to be able to give and take constructive criticism and IMO opinion he deserves a lot of criticism for his handling of the Cork football team this time round. Cork had a fairly soft run to this years AI and being in Munster they are generally guaranteed a last 12 spot, they also have a very talented squad and have been the most consistent county at U21 level the past 4 years. With all this he has failed to even be competitive with Kerry on the big days or develop many of these U21 players. Larry Tompkins also got Cork to an AI but not too many counties are beating a path to him when their IC manager's job comes up.
Quotemost of my heros come from a team that regularly stuff Cork
..Its nice to know there are fans of Kerry in Tyrone.
Could we start a mutual appreciation society Mike ????????? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Zulu - why is it do you think that Tompkins isn't looking for the Cork job or why do other counties not put him in charge ??
Well he wouldn't get the Cork job again even if he wanted it but he doesn't (as far as I know). As for him not being sought after by other counties well I suppose his location down in Cork means he is geographically outside the net of many counties. I know many of the Cork lads weren't too happy with him during his time in charge and he wouldn't be the best man manager I'd say. He also hasn't been involved in club management since he finished with Cork and I think you should prove yourself capable at that level first. If he took on club management for 3-5 years and was successful I'd say he could become popular again as he still has a high profile.
From Eamon Sweeney's new year predictions in to-day's Sunday Independent*
JUNE
The Cork hurlers and Gaelic footballers embark on their seventh strike of the year.
"We're fed up being called Cork," reveals hurling spokesman, Patrick Fitzgerald. "That name doesn't give anyone an idea of how fantastic we are."
Football spokesman Gerald Fitzpatrick announces his backing for Fitzgerald: "We'd like to be called 'The Amazing Colossal Men' or 'Brilliantland' or something like that. It's the least we deserve."
The panel announces plans to suicide- bomb Pairc Ui Chaoimh if its demands aren't met. "I don't think we're being unreasonable here," the statement concludes.
* I don't buy or read the Sunday Independent, but I received a phone-call from Butterknife who thought it was very funny.
Quote from: Zulu on January 05, 2008, 03:38:00 PM
Which you say is backed up by a friend in Cork GAA circles, i.e you have not made one even semi-factual point in this debate so far but have only given your opinion that you don't believe the scenario I have painted.
You're own position is backed up only by friends closer to the heart of things down in Cork so you're in exactly the same position as me ::)
You say
Quote
I'm not on the Cork county board, a member of either panel or a Cork club delegate, I can only give my opinion based on my knowledge of the scene down there and from what I'm told by friends closer to the heart of it.
Hypocrite
How does that make you know anymore than me what is going down there at the coalface? How much are you willing to wager that you know a bit more about what's going on down in Cork than I do - you did say it.
Quote from: TBT on January 05, 2008, 04:16:02 PM
Stephenite,
I'm from Cork and your ignorance on this matter is staggering.
You're quite right, on the last page I specifically asked for forgivness for this ignorance, however having looked into a bit more I don't see anything in your post that hasn't already been said re the big bad Frank - I've talked personally to some in Cork over the last few days as this has piqued my interest and I'll take their word at face value, see above
Yet again another post from you which makes no relevant points, all you seem to say is that you don't believe me or now TBT but you do believe your friend, you don't make any coherent argument as to why you don't accept my argument you just say you don't believe it.
QuoteYou're own position is backed up only by friends closer to the heart of things down in Cork so you're in exactly the same position as me
Firstly my opinion isn't only based on speaking with three friends but also with amongst others a former IC manager and numerous others that I met on my fairly frequent trips down there. I also played and lived in Cork for 7 years so I have some knowledge of what the general GAA scene is like there. Secondly unlike you I never accussed you of being full of shit, I gave my opinion on what has transpired and can accept that others may hold a different one it doesn' make either of us liars or shit talkers. That seems to be beyond your grasp.
QuoteHypocrite
How does that make you know anymore than me what is going down there at the coalface? How much are you willing to wager that you know a bit more about what's going on down in Cork than I do - you did say it.
How am I a hypocrite?
QuoteI've talked personally to some in Cork over the last few days as this has piqued my interest and I'll take their word at face value, see above
I think I'll use your favourite debating tool here..... ::) ::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2008, 10:02:22 PM
Yet again another post from you which makes no relevant points, all you seem to say is that you don't believe me or now TBT but you do believe your friend, you don't make any coherent argument as to why you don't accept my argument you just say you don't believe it.
QuoteYou're own position is backed up only by friends closer to the heart of things down in Cork so you're in exactly the same position as me
Firstly my opinion isn't only based on speaking with three friends but also with amongst others a former IC manager and numerous others that I met on my fairly frequent trips down there. I also played and lived in Cork for 7 years so I have some knowledge of what the general GAA scene is like there. Secondly unlike you I never accussed you of being full of shit, I gave my opinion on what has transpired and can accept that others may hold a different one it doesn' make either of us liars or shit talkers. That seems to be beyond your grasp.
QuoteHypocrite
How does that make you know anymore than me what is going down there at the coalface? How much are you willing to wager that you know a bit more about what's going on down in Cork than I do - you did say it.
How am I a hypocrite?
QuoteI've talked personally to some in Cork over the last few days as this has piqued my interest and I'll take their word at face value, see above
I think I'll use your favourite debating tool here..... ::) ::) ::) ::)
Good Lord you're struggling a bit here
1. My coherent argument is that I've talked to others who are involved down there - they are old friends, I'm more inclinced to believe them than others an internet discussions forum. I truly struggle to believe what you and TBT are saying and am suspicious of your motives in espousing a view that is certainly pro-the players in all of this. However that does not mean that you will prove to be the ones that are wrong in all of this. My information could turn out to be incorrect, however time will tell.
2. You're hypocrisy lies in the fact that you are willing question my knowledge of events, yet you yourself are displaced from things on the ground, all your information is coming at you second hand also. What makes you so sure that you're info is any less cosher than my own??
Also, what on earth does it matter that you also talk to a former IC manager? Is his opinion more valid than others? Is he a former Cork manager? Was he at the County Board meetings?
3. I never accused of you being full of shit? Where was this said?
You're not going back to the "talking out your hole" comment again - I thought we had dealt with that? Are you simply trying to muddy the waters again or are you just confused? Do try to keep up.....
4. Do you actually think I am going to take you at face value when one of my closest friends is telling you otherwise - and you respond to this by
Quote
I think I'll use your favourite debating tool here..... ::) ::) ::) ::)
please point out how this is my favourite debating tool (original) and why you find this unreasonable??
Ok Stephenite, I'll work back through your post....
QuoteQuote
I think I'll use your favourite debating tool here.....
please point out how this is my favourite debating tool (original) and why you find this unreasonable??
In all your posts to me on this topic you have used this ::), it is childish and adds nothing to the debate. I know we disagree and that you may not accept some of my points you don't need to add that idiotic symbol.
QuoteDo you actually think I am going to take you at face value when one of my closest friends is telling you otherwise - and you respond to this by
No I don't.
QuoteI never accused of you being full of shit? Where was this said?
You're not going back to the "talking out your hole" comment again - I thought we had dealt with that? Are you simply trying to muddy the waters again or are you just confused? Do try to keep up.....
In your first post you said I was 'talking through my hole', in your second you said I was 'talking rubbish or lying', this coming from a man who claims ignorance of the issue and is dependent on information (actually their opinion) on the situation.
QuoteYou're hypocrisy lies in the fact that you are willing question my knowledge of events, yet you yourself are displaced from things on the ground, all your information is coming at you second hand also. What makes you so sure that you're info is any less cosher than my own??
Also, what on earth does it matter that you also talk to a former IC manager? Is his opinion more valid than others? Is he a former Cork manager? Was he at the County Board meetings?
Like I said above I never questioned your knowledge of the situation, you admitted to ignorance of situation initially, I responded and you told me I was talking rubbish. It is you who is the hypocrite as I never questioned the validity of your opinion but you did mine. As with every discussion on this or any other board no poster is in possession of all the facts, we just give our opinions based on what we know and how we interpret the facts we do know.
QuoteMy coherent argument is that I've talked to others who are involved down there - they are old friends, I'm more inclinced to believe them than others an internet discussions forum. I truly struggle to believe what you and TBT are saying and am suspicious of your motives in espousing a view that is certainly pro-the players in all of this. However that does not mean that you will prove to be the ones that are wrong in all of this. My information could turn out to be incorrect, however time will tell.
That's not an argument that is you saying I believe one persons interpretation of events and not another. You haven't qualified this other than to say you know them but not me, that's fair enough but you haven't disected any of my points and argued why they can't be true. And what do you mean by being 'suspicious of our motives'? We are just GAA fans discussing GAA related topics on an internet forum, whatever is said here will have no bearing on what happens in Cork.
Oh and do me a favour leave out pathetic comments like 'Good Lord you're struggling a bit here' or 'Do try to keep up.....', we disagree on this issue but I do you the courtesy of not indulging in idiotic digs like these. I have a 9 year old sister if I want to indulge in that type of debate.
Descending into farce, this one (and I accept my portion of the blame, only a small portion mind :P)
Two people arguing whose friends in Cork is more right appears to be the direction it's headed - I'll retire on this one and see how it plays out.
I was thinking that myself Stephenite, so if you want to discuss the actual issue I've no problem doing so. For the record I feel the players were wrong to go with the nuclear option right from the start however nor do I accept that they should take this decision lying down.
I'd agree with that - too militant too early. And for the record I don't believe that any manager should have selectors imposed on him by the County Board. However, I feel also that this is a very important issue with ramifications far beyond Leeside, if the County Board lose this battle it will be interesting to see what happens.
There's a report on today's Evening Echo that Cork will be unable to fulfill their Waterford Crystal Tournament Hurling clash with Limerick IT on Thursday night. A suggestion that the under 21s would represent the county has been shot down. If there are no developments within the next 24 hours then it looks like we're getting to s**t hitting the fan time. While it may only be a secondary competition the Cork CB wont be too happy. It looks like the irresistible force meeting the immovable object with neither side inclined to back down.
Incidently Anthony Lynch did not travel with the Cork football squad for the holiday and has remained behind to be available for talks. A meeting was held last Thursday night but no solution is in sight
Things sounding a little bit more conciliatory perhaps Frank? There was no bluster out of Jerry I thought
Should be news before the end of the night.
From www.irishexaminer.com
08 January 2008
Decision time for Cork chiefs
By Brendan O'Brien and Michael Moynihan
CORK GAA chiefs will decide today whether they will fulfil Thursday's fixture in the Waterford Crystal senior hurling tournament or withdraw from the competition as the inter-county strike rumbles on.
The game, against Limerick Institute of Technology, was originally scheduled for last Sunday but was postponed until Thursday night in Páirc Uí Rinn to allow further efforts to resolve the ongoing impasse between the board and the county's hurling and football panels.
The row, which centres on the right of Cork team managers to choose their own selectors, has rumbled on since before Christmas, when the players withdrew their services in protest at the change brought in by the county board.
While the senior footballers have had a new manager appointed under the new arrangement – Teddy Holland – the hurlers were first to have fixtures affected by the row, when a challenge game with UCC was called off before the holidays.
Although the McGrath Cup football tournament began last weekend, the Cork footballers had already indicated they would not be participating because the competition clashed with the team holiday to South America.
However, with the hurlers formally committed to lining out in the Waterford Crystal tournament, any failure to fulfil fixtures will result in expulsion from the tournament.
The Munster Council, which oversees the tournament, outlined last week that apart from any such expulsion, Cork would face no fines or sanctions relating to the NHL or the Munster Championship if they did not participate in the Waterford Crystal tournament.
Suggestions that Cork might put out a combination of U21 and intermediate players to fulfil the Waterford Crystal fixture have been dismissed.
Board PRO Bob Ryan insisted that Cork would not consider fielding any side — such as the U21s — if the senior players are unavailable.
Said Ryan: "Unless we can put out our strongest team, we will not be taking part. It would be an insult to the competition and our opponents to do otherwise."
Despite the strike action, Cork hurlers Ben and Jerry O'Connor were adamant yesterday that it will not have any impact on the county's chances of claiming All-Ireland hurling honours in 2008.
"Normally Cork don't start training until the end of January anyway so we're all right," Ben explained. "Ten or 15 years ago fellas came back training and they were carrying weight. The way it has gone fellas come back and they are nearly in top shape before they start. They fine tune before the league starts in the second week in February. Most fellas are looking after themselves and doing a bit of training."
While football boss Teddy Holland is hamstrung by the turmoil in his first term in charge, Gerald McCarthy has the benefit of the 2007 campaign with the hurlers and the Newtownshandrum pair feel that is another factor in their favour as they bid to dethrone the Cats.
"After 12 months in charge, having seen a county championship go ahead, he knows exactly what players he has," added Ben. "In a way he has an advantage from last year because he knows what he wants."
Ben agreed against fielding an U21 side for the fixture against LIT explaining: "No one wants that. The players don't want that, the county board don't want that, management don't want that. It would make things very awkward if players were asked to come into the panel. Things would be awkward between fellas when they would be meeting each other after. Hopefully it won't come to that."
Cork supporters will be praying that the disputes can be put to bed as soon as possible. Kilkenny's 30th senior title last September put them level with Cork's total but watching the Cats complete a hat-trick would be a bitter pill for a team that was chasing such an honour themselves back in 2005.
"If they got three-in-a-row you would feel they are superior because you haven't done three in a row so it is kind of tit for tat," Ben admitted. "You don't want anyone say they are better than you."
Jerry added: "There is no point saying (the three-in-a-row) doesn't affect teams," said Jerry. "It does affect you. No matter how professional you are it does get into your head.
"You say you put it out of your head but it is just brought up so often in the media it is bound to get you a little bit."
And www.eveningecho.ie
Jerry O'Connor are sure Cork can still be contenders in 2008 despite the lack of preseason preparation due to the ongoing strike. The Newtown aces explained at the launch of the Supervalu Kids in Action programme yesterday that the hurlers are keeping fit until they resume collective training. "I suppose the way it has gone fellas come back and they are nearly in top shape. So they fine tune before the league," said Ben.
With Thursday's night rescheduled Waterford Crystal Cup clash with LIT almost certain to be postponed due to the impasse, hurling manager Gerald McCarthy will miss out on a chance to audition new players for 2008. Ben feels that because this is the Barrs' man's second year in charge it won't be a problem. "Having seen a county championship go ahead he knows exactly what players he has. In a way he has an advantage from last year
because he knows what he wants," argued Ben. Jerry O'Connor insisted that the players are united in their opposition to the County Board decision
to strip manager's of the right to pick their own selectors. "Before it started there were player meetings and everyone had a chance to voice their opinion. All players discussed different points and then they all agreed on the one thing after that," said Jerry. Ben explained: "The one thing we've always had in Cork is it's one for all and all for one." He also said Cork are gunning for three-in-row chasing Kilkenny. "If they got three-in-a-row you
would feel they are superior because you haven't done three-in-a-row so it is kinda tit-for-tat. You don't want anyone saying they are better than you."
LIT match postponed, first time ever Cork have withdrawn from a competition
First but not the last ! :D
Unbelievable ignorance. All sides should be ashamed of themselves.
This is from the evening echo today. Tomas Mulcahy, 1990 winning hurling captain, was on RTE 6 one news this evening suggesting that an independent mediator be brought in to sort it out. Frank Murphy, County Secretary, is still in South America, with the football panel on holidays so it seems unlikely that there will be any progress until he's back. This is the first walk over given by Cork in modern times. Well since last years all ireland anyway ;))
THE CORK hurlers will not be lining out tomorrow against LIT in the Waterford Crystal Tournament and they have been withdrawn from the competition. The game was scheduled for last Sunday but the Munster Council agreed to a request from the Cork County Board for a four-day deferral of the fixture to allow more time for the players and the board to try and resolve their differences over the appointment of selectors. However, the interim period has not seen a resolution to the impasse and today the board, through PRO Bob Ryan, issued the following short statement. "The issue is not resolved and therefore we are not in a position to fulfil tomorrow night's fixture with LIT. We have informed the Munster Council of that decision.'' Although the competition is very
much a secondary one, the withdrawal of Cork is significant as it's the first time that they have been unable to fulfil a fixture in a competition they had entered. It's unlikely that they will face fines or other sanctions from the Munster Council but with the national
leagues looming on the horizon, there is still no resolution to the problems between the board and the players. Ryan was unable to tell the Evening Echo today if another meeting between the players and the board was scheduled. However, it has learned that the
board have informed the players that the whole selection process would be re-visited again at the end of the year. That is their main bargaining tool in the negotiations but may not appease the players who are concerned about the way in which this year's football
selection committee was appointed. There was no comment forthcoming today from the Cork hurling management who were hoping to use the competition to try out some new material in advance of the opening league fixture against Kilkenny in Cork on February 10. The footballers are due to play Meath in Navan on February 2.
IMO a silly strike about what imo should be a non issue for players. Certainly "strike" for better training facilities,gear etc but this "strike" is imo an insult to the democratic nature of the GAA. Who on earth do these Cork players think they are to challenge the club mandated decision of the County Board.
If they don't like it they should canvass the clubs to change the rule( I think this is what democracy entails) or go and play astro turf soccer /rugby.
Don't even start me on how the Cork "footballers" are involved in this mess.
Billy Morgan must be having a real good laugh to himself at the minute.
QuoteIMO a silly strike about what imo should be a non issue for players. Certainly "strike" for better training facilities,gear etc but this "strike" is imo an insult to the democratic nature of the GAA. Who on earth do these Cork players think they are to challenge the club mandated decision of the County Board.
If they don't like it they should canvass the clubs to change the rule( I think this is what democracy entails) or go and play astro turf soccer /rugby.
Don't even start me on how the Cork "footballers" are involved in this mess.
That's an extremely simplistic point of view IMO, whatever way you look at this issue there are two sides to the story and the Cork CB have acted in deriliction of their basic duties - the promotion of GAA in Cork. They sought out this fight I think they just didn't think they'd get one this big.
QuoteBilly Morgan must be having a real good laugh to himself at the minute.
I'd doubt anyone with an interest in Cork GAA is laughing.
Zulu - you know what
Zulu - you know what I mean - the whole issue blew up after he was shafted.
Not good for the GAA as a whole. Hope they can sort it but it looks like the league is under threat now. Rumors around cork suggest that the players are willing to take a year off. I dont know the ins and outs of the politics in Cork GAA but it does seem a crazy decision to have the county board appoint selectors.
QuoteZulu - you know what I mean - the whole issue blew up after he was shafted.
Yeah I know Orangeman, the Cork board are reaping what they sowed IMO.
QuoteNot good for the GAA as a whole. Hope they can sort it but it looks like the league is under threat now. Rumors around cork suggest that the players are willing to take a year off. I dont know the ins and outs of the politics in Cork GAA but it does seem a crazy decision to have the county board appoint selectors.
It was a crazy decision but worse again it was done for the wrong reasons. It wasn't done for the best of Cork IC GAA or the club game there but as part of a power struggle.
It was done by people who want to fight their battles and follow their own agenda - they try to use the GAA as a conduit to get one up on their opponents- It sound like Cork GAA need a clearance.
QuoteIt was done by people who want to fight their battles and follow their own agenda - they try to use the GAA as a conduit to get one up on their opponents- It sound like Cork GAA need a clearance.
I think you could be right, in fairness the players have to shoulder some of the blame but Cork is a strange enough GAA county in some ways. It's hard to explain but I'm not surprised that this type of thing is going on in Cork at the moment. There is also some suggestion that not all the Cork players fully support the action they have taken. So interesting times ahead.
Quote from: tayto on January 10, 2008, 03:12:07 PM
it does seem a crazy decision to have the county board appoint selectors.
Crazy or not, it was a properly constituted democratic decision. If any group of members, including players, disagrees with the decision, they know the democratic procedures to use in attempting to reverse it. Going "on strike" is not one of them (leaving aside the total absurdity of the concept of going on strike from your chosen mode of enjoyment).
Why is it only certain inter-county players, of all sections of the GAA membership, who have ever gone "on strike", put themselves outside the normal decision-making procedures of the association and demanded that they have their way whatever the democratic wishes of the greater membership?
So Hardy, why do you think the CCB went down this route? Democracy in the GAA isn't always what it seems.
I have no idea, to be honest, though I'm aware of all the theories. My only point is that, whatever the reasons for the decision, going "on strike" is not a reasonable way to oppose it and I don't think it's a good idea to indulge this type of "player power" approach that seeks to bypass, if not ignore, the democratic process that seems to be good enough for every other member of the association.
QuoteMy only point is that, whatever the reasons for the decision, going "on strike" is not a reasonable way to oppose it
I agree but I truely believe that this is the only thing that the CCB react to. But if I was advising the players I would have suggested dialouge before threathening strike action.
QuoteI don't think it's a good idea to indulge this type of "player power" approach that seeks to bypass, if not ignore, the democratic process that seems to be good enough for every other member of the association.
In fairness I think pretty much everyone in the GAA would behave like the players if they thought that anyone would care. You only have to look at all the counties and clubs which appeal reasonable disciplinary actions based on loopholes etc.
You have a point Zulu. All the same, what would the players do if the referees, linesmen, umpires, fitness coaches, masseurs, psychologists, pitch markers, net putter-uppers, gatemen, jersey washers, lads who turn on the water heaters, etc. all adopted the same attitude to decisions they disagreed with and went on strike?
An all out strike ??? Is that official ? ;D ;D
I know what you're saying Hardy and I agree that the players need to see the bigger picture on occasions. However I broadly agree with the players on this one, you mentioned what if groundskeepers went on strike if they didn't like something. Well if the CB took away his tractor and told him he could cut all the pitches with a lawn mower, I'd support him if he went on strike. Why because the CB made his job more difficult for no good reason. And that is what the CCB have done here IMO with the players. No-one in Cork was looking for this change except it seems the CB executive, they took advantage of the anti-IC feeling amongst the clubs in Cork. To do this IMO is a gross mis-use of their position and power and they should be brought to task for this. At least things are out in the open and if there is an ounce of maturity amongst all involved, things will be the better for this coming to a head.
But why didn't the players adopt the proper procedure, go back to their clubs, call a meeting, propose a motion, etc. and work it through to the county board?
Even if their cause is just, I don't believe they should be given in to when they adopt the approach of trying to compel the rest of the organisation to their point if view. For the simple reason that, if the precedent is established that one powerful group can subvert the democratic process at its whim, then the whole edifice crumbles. What do you think happens the next time the players disagree with a decision of the membership at large?
I think it's an important principle.
Don't forget that this decision about the selectors was a DEMOCRATIC decision by the clubs.There imo is an agenda out there to portray the CCB as a smoke filled room of pioneer pinned national school teachers throwing their weight around. Utter crap.
It was a democratic decision and the players know well enough that only a democratic club decision to the contrary can and imo more importantly should change the decision.
However it is easier to throw the rattler out of the pram and chat to the journalists.
Shame on them.
Yes they did but the first one was after no discussion, it wasn't even flagged. And the second one was after a mixed level of debate, some clubs debated it others didn't. But even that doesn't make it a proper democratic process.
You'd swear that Cork people only started following Cork hurlers and footballers in the last 5 years the way Donal Og and his cronies are acting!! Cork people will follow intercounty teams long after the present players have finished playing! Not that the co board are angels either mind you!! Cork will be a laughing stock soon in of all years the year that Kilkenny could take over at the top of the roll of honour!! I haven't heard much support for the players that's for sure!!
Like Frank Casey said there are two sides to this argument but if I were Anthony Lynch or one of the other elder players I'd be absolutely livid. First the CB pull a stunt to get their own men on a selection committee and they then appoint a sub-standard (in the eyes of anyone I know at least) management team. This despite knowing the players were already upset at recent developments. It seems to me that some lads on here are sick of IC players kicking up a fuss (GPA strike etc.) and are reacting to this by supporting the CB stance. While I can see where you lads are coming from, the role of administrators is to administrate the games in the best manner possible. It is not to try and negatively influence the chances of success of it's flagship teams. It is the CB who stepped beyond it's remit, not the players IMO.
The CB have offered to revisit at the year end so there is something on the table.
I've spoken to alot of true reds in the last month and the mood viz a viz the players is very different to that of 5 years ago. I don't think the voting pattern of the clubs on the issue is a million miles away from the ordinary punter. Joe soap sees bith sides as bieng in the wrong rater than either side being right.
Compromise means both sides have to lose something.
Besides the three in a row won't be nearly as sweet without beating the langers once or even better twice. ;)
From www.eveningecho.ie
THE Cork County Board is doing everything in its power to solve the deepening crisis in the county between it and the senior hurling and football
squads. That was the loud and clear message today from the board PRO Bob Ryan after the withdrawal of the hurlers from the Waterford Crystal Tournament. It was the first time a Cork team had withdrawn from a competition and has put the upcoming leagues in doubt. According to Ryan, the board is bending over backwards to resolve the crisis. "We have bent over backwards since the issue began to seek meetings. "We have met with them on a few occasions where both sides outlined their situation. "Both sides are now crystal clear on where they stand. "We have offered the players an olive branch in so far as we have agreed to re-visit the whole method of the senior selection process next September. "The fundamental thing in this issue is that the democratic process of the board is respected. It would be a very sad day in Cork if that is over ruled.''
Ryan went on to point out that twice the board, through its club delegates, had voted on the selectors. An effort to contact a spokesperson for the footballers who, it is believed are sticking to their guns to have the old policy reinstated, was unsuccessful. There is also no date pencilled in for another meeting between the parties which heightens the belief that Cork may not field in the leagues.
The shit is really flying off the fan !
QuoteI aways got the impression that the Cork players were very a militant bunch. It is very sad that representing your county has become such a burden that players have resorted to this.
I agree that this particular group of Cork players are fairly militant but I think they have to be when dealing with the Cork CB. There is no point in comparing these lads with previous generations of players, up until maybe 10 years ago players were largely seen and not heard. IC players were often treated disgracefully by CB's where even the minimum requirements were not met. It is my opinion that the players are right to hold out here and demand that the system that was in place is reinstated. Let them revisited the issue next year if they want and if after a proper debate the clubs vote for this then so be it. But if I were a Cork senior footballer I wouldn't play for the current management team, nobody who was any good would touch the job while the players were striking. So the CB got someone who for reasons unbeknownst to me took the job in those circumstances, as a result Holland or his selectors can't have the respect of the players. The CB should agree to allowing the managers of each team pick their own selectors, the football management team should resign, and the job should be advertised once again. I'd wager that the standard of applicant would improve considerably and Cork football would have the opportunity of competing again next year.
how in the name of sanity any manager can work with selectors foisted upon him is beyond me. The players are dead right -it's an absolute sham by the cork County Board who wants a say in the selection of the cork teams with a number of well positioned selectors. Regardless of who voted for what- the players realise it will be a wasted year under this arrangement and they are as well off taking the year out if need be. Imagine running a company and not having a say in the hiring and firing- what a farce!
Some food for thought.
diarmuid.oflynn@examiner.ie
10 January 2008
Board must bite bullet for the good of Cork
AND so it came to pass.
From the moment I learned of the latest confrontation between the Cork County Board and their hurlers and footballers, I feared the worst. The cancellation of the Waterford match between the senior hurlers and LIT, due to be held in Páirc Uí Rinn tonight, is bad news — bad for Cork, bad for hurling, bad for the GAA.
But, my friends, this is not the worst, not by a long chalk. For those of you reeling under the shock, my advice is this — brace yourself, because unless there's a turnaround of Paul and Damascene proportions in the next few weeks, there's worse to come. I've made no secret of where I stand in this dispute. This is a mess entirely of the county board's own creation. This is a mess they must clean up.
I did a bit of travelling around hurling country nationally over the Christmas/New Year holiday period, and over and over again I heard the same comment — the county board can't give into the players on this, they have to let people know who's running the show.
That's a total misread of this situation. Another comment was that the clubs can't be dictated to by the players on this — again, a misconception.
For the last four or five years, Cork have had the system whereby the senior hurling and senior football manager names his own selectors. This is the preferred system of almost every county in the county (of almost every club in the country now too, at this stage), certainly the system employed by the most successful counties in both hurling and football. Under this system, Cork reached four All-Ireland senior hurling finals, won two, while the senior footballers reached one and also reached several All-Ireland semi-finals. Patently then, it was working. Nowhere was there a cry for getting rid of this system, nowhere was there even a peep of public dissatisfaction. Then came the bombshell.
Coming up to that fateful regular county board meeting, the major talking point was whether or not the county champions would get to retain the honour of naming the county senior captain and one selector. This was the big question up for debate. This was the one that got all the attention. Introduced on the night then, sneaked in without prior debate or discussion among the clubs, came this other proposal — that the senior manager would no longer have the power to choose his own selectors, that this option would now revert to the county board.
Let there be no confusion about this: this was an executive decision. It was cleverly presented to appear like it came from the clubs, that this was GAA democracy in action. It wasn't; this move came from the inside. Nowhere in my travels, in Cork or outside, have I met anyone who thinks it's a good idea to go back to the old way of doing things. I'm sure they're out there, but I haven't met them. To most people it makes absolute sense that a modern manager would pick his own managerial team, people he knows he can work with, people whose opinions and expertise he values. Presuming the county board have picked a decent manager to begin with, such a man isn't going to surround himself with fools.
The most pertinent questions here are these — why was the system changed? Whose idea was this? Who stands to gain, who stands to lose?
Was this proposal put forward with the best interests of Cork in mind, or the best interests of a few individuals still smarting from the loss of that little bit of power, way back in 2002? When the decision was announced, the players reacted, instantly, threatened a withdrawal of services if the decision wasn't changed back to where it was; knee-jerk said a lot of Cork fans, over the top, too confrontational, and instantly the players lost ground among those they most treasure. The county board noted this and moved quickly to drive home their advantage; another meeting, with an inevitable conclusion — accepting the notion that this wasn't about the players taking a stand on behalf of the managers (which, ultimately, is taking a stand on behalf of themselves) but was in fact a direct challenge to their authority, the club delegates voted to uphold their earlier decision. Again the board moved swiftly, appointed a football manager, then his selectors (in consultation with the manager, a sop they agreed to throw towards the players concerns, but one that is entirely at their discretion). Had they waited, had they held fire at that stage in recognition of what was a looming serious problem, there would still have been room to manoeuvre. With those decisions, however, the die was cast. Both sides are now heavily entrenched — the only way forward, is back.
THE Cork County Board is charged with the promotion of the GAA interests within the county, that's their overriding brief. None of this meets that obligation. If they didn't know the reaction this was certain to get from the players, they were negligent, short-sighted; if they knew (and they had to, surely), then they brought this on themselves, very deliberately, they were looking for this confrontation.
There are some very good men in the Cork County Board, starting with county board chairman Mick Dolan and his vice-chair, Jerry O'Sullivan (father of Diarmuid, he can't be enjoying this one whit). For the good of Cork hurling and football, for the greater good of the GAA, I hope they do what has to be done, take whatever steps are necessary to bring this situation back to where it was before that negative and destructive decision was taken. Because of one thing I'm certain — the players won't move. And the players are right.
From today's Examiner by Michael Moynihan
Cork peace moves rejected, claim players
CORK's striking hurlers and footballers have had a compromise move aimed at settling the festering row over team management rejected by the Cork County Board.
It emerged last night that the players looked for movement on the process of appointment of selectors and were prepared to have the relevant decisions/motions delayed until after this season's Championships on the basis that the board would support the proposal and ensure the matter was fully and democratically debated by clubs within the county. The players are understood to have also offered the board a written undertaking not to strike if a democratic decision taken next September/October on the process of appointment, based on support for change from the board, is rejected.
Last night, however, the board stated that a peace initiative had also come from their side.
"We proposed a compromise whereby we were prepared to revisit the matter in September and to notify the clubs in writing in August to have a fair chance of debating the issue," said a county board source. "We felt that was a fair compromise."
The board offer to write to club chairpersons and secretaries in relation to the issue is a clear acknowledgement of the problems with the club delegate system, claim the players; they added that such an offer was unacceptable because such a letter did not show enough movement from the board to support the process of change.
The Cork senior hurling panel had a lengthy meeting on Wednesday night which involved an in-depth review of the situation sinceboth hurling and football panels issued a joint statement on November 12.
That statement addressed the board decision to remove the county manager's right to appoint his own selectors, a move which sparked the player strike.
It is understood that on Wednesday, player representatives outlined their negotiations with the county board to their team-mates with agreement that they had moved as far as they could in the process and had made "fair and reasonable proposals for a compromise" to deal with the impasse.
A source said that all present fully endorsed the way in which the negotiations had been handled by their player representatives and backed the November 12 statement.
While there has been criticism of that statement in some quarters, it has subsequently emerged that the strike threat contained therein was not as radical as the original proposal players agreed to — that a series of no-notice lightning strikes would take place before the first NFL and NHL games this season.
All players are understood to have signed a written document committing themselves to the lightning strike option before it was decided to release the statement in November instead. The players felt that the lightning strike option would leave no time for discussions and they also did not wish to personalise the football manager issue, issuing the statement ahead of the appointment of Teddy Holland as Cork football boss to allow time for negotiation at a point when the teams would not be playing matches anyway.
The board's actions since the statement and its representatives' attitude in discussions was also raised on Wednesday, with player representatives saying they felt there was "little to encourage them" in the negotiations.
"The players have made a significant move," said one panellist who was at the meeting. "There are two issues, the football manager issue and the process of appointment issue.
"We've moved where we can on the process of appointment issue, which is the only one which is within our control."
Cork's football panel returned yesterday from a holiday in South America and will be updated as quickly as possible by the hurling counterparts on the state of play. The Rebels first NFL game is on February 2 against Meath.
Quotehow in the name of sanity any manager can work with selectors foisted upon him is beyond me.
Cork won the AI U-21 and Junior AIs last year with selectors appointed by the county board.
In todays game at senior level I am not sure what role selectors play - certainly it is not in selecting. The decision to play Masters in the AI rather than Goulding was Morgan's alone - the other selectors opposed it but it was Billy's call. So I am not sure what all the fuss is about - maybe get rid of selectors all together ::)
Attitudes are hardening by all accounts, I'd say there is now a very good chance that Cork won't be able to field a team(well a first choice one anyway) in the leagues. The hurlers have a bit of wiggle room as they have a mangement team that they'll play for but the footballers are in a very tight spot. I'm not sure what the situation is if they don't field teams for the first league game, but I reckon they couldn't participate at all if they miss any rounds. Anyone know what the story is?
You would be surprised at how many GAA people in Cork who think that it would not be a bad thing if Cork were not to participate in the Munster c'ship - in hurling and football this year. The feeling is that the club scene needs to be put in order and also that the issues behind the strikes need to be sorted properly and not just a stop gap solution. The fact that neither hurling or football team are considered to have a realisitc chance of AI success might also be a factor in this approach.
That may be the case TJ but the problems in the club scene are not going to be solved by this in the longterm anyway. I think this is a very serious issue for the GAA as an organisation not just in Cork.
This really is a terrible mess and I really can't see how Cork are going to benefit from it - is there no light at the end of the tunnel at the minute ?
This story is really getting out of hand - Ben O'Connor has called for Holland co to resign - can you believe that ? Sure is he not a hurler ????
This story is taken off the RTE site.
Holland insists he will not step down
Wednesday, 23 January 2008 14:31
Cork football manager Teddy Holland has insisted that he is determined to stay in his position as the impasse over the Cork players strike continues.
Holland claims that neither he nor his selectors will resign, following a call from Newtownshandrum and Cork star Ben O'Connor for them to quit.
Hurlers and footballers in the county remain on strike following the resignation of previous football manager Billy Morgan, who was told he no longer pick his own selectors.
And O'Connor raised the stakes today when he said: 'We've had a meeting, and that's what it means, yes, they must step aside. No one is questioning their credentials but the way they came into the job is the problem.
'Before anyone had been appointed we issued a statement stating our strong objections to the change in the system, and the reason we reacted so quickly - and we said this in the statement - was so that this wouldn't be personalised, that no-one could say we were just refusing to play for a certain manager.
'But then Teddy Holland accepted the job, the selectors were appointed very quickly and they also accepted the job - that's a major problem now for the footballers, they see that as a break in trust even before a ball is kicked.'
However, in a statement issued today Holland said that himself and his selectors where democratically elected and remain determined to work hard for the county.
Taken from todays Cork Examiner
23 January 2008
Holland: we're not resigning
By Michael Moynihan and Diarmuid O'Flynn
NEW Cork football coach Teddy Holland broke his silence last night on the debilitating player strike in the county, and insisted neither he nor his selectors would be resigning.
Each had been democratically elected to their positions, he told the Irish Examiner.
Speaking publicly for the first time since his appointment in November, Holland went public on his own frustration and determination to do the job he was appointed to.
"I just want to confirm that I was democratically elected and that I was not appointed under the system that the players have an issue with," Holland explained.
"I did not apply for the job of manager, and when approached, I insisted that I would have a full input into the appointment of my selectors and the backroom team.
"I was informed that this would have to be approved by the executive and the full County Board; this was done, and carried by an overwhelming majority."
The new Cork stressed: "I can assure everyone that I had a full input into the appointment of my selectors and am very happy with the committee that is working with me.
"I want to say as manager, and on behalf of the selectors, that we are not resigning. We have been democratically elected and have the full backing of the County Board. It is our wish that this matter be resolved between the County Board and the players, so that we can work together."
However, a senior member of the county's hurling panel, Newtownshandrum star Ben O'Connor has called on Holland and his selectors to step aside in an effort to resolve the ongoing stand-off between both senior panels and the county board.
"We've had a meeting, and that's what it means, yes, they must step aside. No-one is questioning their credentials but the way they came into the job is the problem," O'Connor told the Irish Examiner yesterday.
"Before anyone had been appointed we issued a statement stating our strong objections to the change in the system, and the reason we reacted so quickly — and we said this in the statement — was so that this wouldn't be personalised, that no-one could say we were just refusing to play for a certain manager.
"But then Teddy Holland accepted the job, the selectors were appointed very quickly and they also accepted the job — that's a major problem now for the footballers, they see that as a break in trust even before a ball is kicked.
"The footballers have had a few panel meetings on their own and they've said that if the current manager and his selectors step aside, they will have no problem accepting a new appointment from the county board, as long as he has the authority to pick his own management team."
Asked if the Board were to then reappoint Teddy Holland again, O'Connor countered: "No, that won't work. We discussed that, and there's been a fundamental break in trust between the footballers and Teddy Holland. When we put out our statement first day it was to avoid something like this; we asked that no-one be appointed until we had sorted out the problem, but the county board moved on regardless, made the appointments. In accepting those appointments, knowing how the footballers felt about it, that was a fundamental break in trust."
O'Connor outlined what the players have offered to resolve the dispute.
"There's been a proposal put forward by the players, with two conditions; first, the footballers have to be happy that a different manager is appointed, and that he appoints a different management team; second, that everything is re-visited next September/October, fully debated by all the clubs, properly voted on. That will sort it out."
Meanwhile, Cork GAA PRO Bob Ryan has reiterated that Holland was the only person offered the position as coach for the coming year.
"Rumours abound about the appointment of Holland, but he was the only man offered the job. He was the board's first choice", said Ryan.
"He only agreed to take up the job after he insisted that he had an input into his selectors and that was supported overwhelmingly by the clubs, 103 votes to five", said Mr Ryan.
Earlier yesterday, Cork footballer Fintan Goold, said that while he and his colleagues don't have a personal problem with the new manager and his selectors, it was the manner in which the appointments were made which irks them. "Even if we come to an agreement, the players cannot work with the new management because of the issue involved. We have to make a stand on a manager having the right to pick his own selectors for the good of the GAA in the county.
"We are willing to risk our careers on the issue. That is how strongly we feel. We are united in this because we feel it's the way forward for Cork GAA. The evidence is there in terms of success."
Goold who is a UCC student accepts that the players' stance could lead to the county board and new management picking a new panel of 30 players to fulfil fixtures.
"We are the players of 2007 and we can't do anything if it's decided we are not the players for 2008. No one wants to go on strike, but this is a vital issue for the GAA in Cork and we are not going to back down."
While both parties have left the door open to broker a deal, time is running out with the opening round of the National Football League down for decision in 12 days time, February 2.
* additional reporting by Brendan Larkin
I can't believe Teddy Holland won't resign, he made a big blunder accepting the position in the prevailing circumstances now he won't correct that initial mistake. What will he achieve by holding on to his position, not only will the current squad not play for him but neither will most of the obvious replacements? So if he holds on and manages to get a squad together, they'll probably get well beaten during the league and championship. I'd say he'll have few supporters this time next year if that transpires, when all the bluster of supporters is done it is results on the field that matter.
Jesus what a mess, looks like everyone has backed themselves into a corner. Not good for the GAA! ???
Some hooers for strikes down there.
I wonder are they all nurses and teachers in their day jobs?
Even the Cork posters seem to be on strike these days!
I could be mistaken but I think they have to confirm their participation in the leagues this week. If the 2007 squad won't play for Teddy Holland I don't see how he could get a squad together for next week. So either he resigns or the footballers will have to opt out of the league. The hurlers might have an extra week to play with but if they've gone this far I'd imagine they'll hold out also. This is a landmark issue which will reverberate around the whole country.
What a glorious mess ! :-[ :-[ :-[
QuoteThe footballers have damn all supporters anyway so it won't make that much of a difference. The county board should remain strong, while the players should get respect they should also realise where their involvement begins and ends. They do not run the games.
Your anti-GPA/Donal Og agenda is colouring your view on this I'd say. What do you know about the situation do there that makes you think the CB are correct, or are you just disagreeing with uppity players? Saying the footballers have damn all support is a petty not to mention inaccurate comment. The players aren't looking to run Cork GAA their just looking for the CB to provide a format for success, a format they agreed to after the last strike.
Just suspend them from the National League and Championship this year already.
Really its getting ridiculous. ::)
QuoteJust suspend them from the National League and Championship this year already.
Really its getting ridiculous.
How can you do that? At the moment all that is happening, technically, is a number of first choice players are not making themselves available to the current selectors. There are no grounds to suspend anyone yet.
It's the biggest county in Ireland with the largest number of clubs; I'm sure they can find another 30 footballers and another 30 hurlers to participate in the leagues.
They might find some lads to play (and that is a big might) but what would that achieve. They'd almost certainly be on the end of a few hidings which would ensure both management teams would be gone for the following year. And where would the be then? Some lads might like the CB to plow on and leave the players to their own devices but that will create a lose lose situation.
I dont like Cork never have never will, but this is really making Cork once again the laughing stock of the GAA world with their latest antics, and god knows they have provided much laughter to us in Kerry over the years in particular with their football teams.
But hopefully there will be some resolution shortly, though its hard to see who will back down, Frank Murphy runs the show in Cork GAA circles and has done for years, but its the clubs fault as they voted him into the role of full time secretary.
2008 is looking like a real annus horribilus for the Langers, with their arch enemies the Cats and the Kingdom favourites to win unique 3 in a rows and no end in sight to the players strike. Kerry need tough games and the Langers always provide that in Munster whatever about their performances in Croke Park.
In this instance however I side with the county board, you cannot have players dictating what managers they want or dont want to play for, Teddy Holland is a decent man and a manager with a good club and intercounty record and was seen by many as a good choice to replace Morgan. Time will tell if he ever gets to manage a Cork senior team.
QuoteIn this instance however I side with the county board, you cannot have players dictating what managers they want or dont want to play for, Teddy Holland is a decent man and a manager with a good club and intercounty record and was seen by many as a good choice to replace Morgan. Time will tell if he ever gets to manage a Cork senior team.
Sorry Mike but where did you get the idea Teddy Holland has a good record? I have yet to speak with anyone who thinks he is a good choice. The players have made it quite clear it is the process not the man they are objecting to. Holland never should have accepted the job under the circumstances, that he did may cost him the chance of ever leading out a Cork senior team.
Did I not read that he managed the Cork minors to an All Ireland? As well as having some success on the Cork club scene? Could be wrong
Yeah he managed the minors to the AI alright but he has no club success to talk of. But there are a few lads with better and more recent records, Tony Leahy for example. Besides underage success is no indication that you can manage at senior level. Unfortunately for Holland whether he has what it takes is irrelevent now the players won't play for him and as such he should resign. He can't be part of the solutiion which means that he is only part of the problem.
Quote from: Zulu on January 23, 2008, 11:52:33 PM
Yeah he managed the minors to the AI alright but he has no club success to talk of. But there are a few lads with better and more recent records, Tony Leahy for example. Besides underage success is no indication that you can manage at senior level. Unfortunately for Holland whether he has what it takes is irrelevent now the players won't play for him and as such he should resign. He can't be part of the solutiion which means that he is only part of the problem.
Didn't do Jack O'Connor or Mickey Harte any harm
Cork committed to participating in national leagues - Ryan
22 January 2008
Cork County Board PRO Bob Ryan has declared that the Rebels fully intend to field teams in both the national football and national hurling leagues next month.
Ryan's declaration comes just 11 days ahead of the commencement of the Rebels' opening national football league salvo and with no sign of a breakthrough being made in the Cork players' strike.
"There have been talks behind the scenes. It is our intention to field teams in the National League," Ryan insisted.
What is the penalty (if any) for failing to field a team in the league? There doesn't seem to be any for failing to field in the Championship, if Kilkenny are anything to go by.
It's going to take some effort to put teams into the football league at this stage -
Cork county board must hold firm and field teams. Its disgraceful carry on by the 2007 players. The clubs in the county voted for this system (twice I believe) and if its good enough for them then its good enough for me. If the players really cared about this they should get their clubs to change their minds and overturn the decision next year.
I forgot though - intercounty players are more important than the rest of us so they mustn't have to bow to the democratic workings of the association like the rest of us plebs. Its an absolute disgrace.
QuoteI forgot though - intercounty players are more important than the rest of us so they mustn't have to bow to the democratic workings of the association like the rest of us plebs. Its an absolute disgrace.
And therein lies the foundation of your opinion. It is an almost constant theme from all those who oppose the players, you are not viewing this situation in isolation but as part of the GPA/uppity IC players 'movement'. You're all entitled to your opinions and while I am strongly supporting the players on this, I wouldn't suggest that the playes are faultless. Like all issues it is not good V bad or black and white situatiion. But anyone who feels the CB should hold tough either doesn't know what they are talking about or the are blinded by their opinion on the GPA and player power.
i see what you're saying Zulu and by the sounds of it the Cork County Board sound like a right shower.
But surely theres other ways of going about it,Surely they could play this year then Each panel member force his club delegates to seek changes.
Its giving everyone on the outside the impression that they are acting like nothing more than spoiled children.
as i said before, in my opinion,If Cork or any other team fail to participate in all league games,they should not be allowed to participate in the championship either.
Quotei see what you're saying Zulu and by the sounds of it the Cork County Board sound like a right shower.
But surely theres other ways of going about it,Surely they could play this year then Each panel member force his club delegates to seek changes.
Its giving everyone on the outside the impression that they are acting like nothing more than spoiled children.
as i said before, in my opinion,If Cork or any other team fail to participate in all league games,they should not be allowed to participate in the championship either.
As you can appreciate BM, this is a very complicated situation. But why should the players play for a CB that goes back on its word by trying to reverse the policy of managers picking their own selectors? Why should the footballers play for a man who takes the job when he knows the players and CB are at loggerheads? Some people will repeat the mantra 'but this is a democratic position voted on twice by delegates'. I don't know of even one person who thinks that the CB should pick the selectors, if this is so, how can the delegates vote be representive of the democratically expressed view of the 'grassroots'?
And to even further muddy the waters, the CB are now saying that Teddy Holland had a full part in picking the selectors. If this is true then did they (the CB) not go against the 'democratic' vote of the delegates?
Quote from: Zulu on January 24, 2008, 01:17:15 PM
Quotei see what you're saying Zulu and by the sounds of it the Cork County Board sound like a right shower.
But surely theres other ways of going about it,Surely they could play this year then Each panel member force his club delegates to seek changes.
Its giving everyone on the outside the impression that they are acting like nothing more than spoiled children.
as i said before, in my opinion,If Cork or any other team fail to participate in all league games,they should not be allowed to participate in the championship either.
As you can appreciate BM, this is a very complicated situation. But why should the players play for a CB that goes back on its word by trying to reverse the policy of managers picking their own selectors? Why should the footballers play for a man who takes the job when he knows the players and CB are at loggerheads? Some people will repeat the mantra 'but this is a democratic position voted on twice by delegates'. I don't know of even one person who thinks that the CB should pick the selectors, if this is so, how can the delegates vote be representive of the democratically expressed view of the 'grassroots'?
And to even further muddy the waters, the CB are now saying that Teddy Holland had a full part in picking the selectors. If this is true then did they (the CB) not go against the 'democratic' vote of the delegates?
The Players arent playing for the County Board Zulu, They are playing for themselves,their families, their intercounty teammates,their Clubmates and the thousands of fans throughout Cork,im of the opinion they should play inspite of the county board and ignore any requests/orders from the county board delegates.
There is no way a County Board should pick selectors,Its a ridiculous practice.
Surely some clubs in Cork have tried to change such outdated bullshit?????
BM - did you ever give some consideration to the view that some club delegates might vote in favour of the county board ?
And has this not been the case already - was this not the cause of the problem ??
By the way, out of curiosity - what is happening to the minor and U -21 teams so far ??
Are they on strike as well ??????
Quote from: orangeman on January 24, 2008, 01:36:07 PM
BM - did you ever give some consideration to the view that some club delegates might vote in favour of the county board ?
And has this not been the case already - was this not the cause of the problem ??
By the way, out of curiosity - what is happening to the minor and U -21 teams so far ??
Are they on strike as well ??????
Orangeman,Its suprising to me that clubs would go against the wishes of their county players and vote in favour of the county board continuously picking selectors,Couldnt see my own club doing something like that.
Or is it a case that there are so many teams in Cork,All clubs who dont have county representation(im guessing the vast majority) are playing mischief maker and backing the county board no matter what.
Surely the club delegates had a "free" vote and could vote whatever way they wanted - at the end of the day the Cork county board can say that the clubs VOTED for this - NOT them -
And I'm NOT supporting the County board here at all.
QuoteAnd therein lies the foundation of your opinion. It is an almost constant theme from all those who oppose the players, you are not viewing this situation in isolation but as part of the GPA/uppity IC players 'movement'.
I resent that remark. It makes no odds to me who gets thick over a democratically taken decision - I'll criticise them for it anyway. In this case it is intercounty players and yes - I do believe they think they are more equal than others. In future play the ball and not the man. I have no time for people who will not work within the structures of the GAA. It has its flaws but in general it has stood us in good stead for almost 125 years. GAA in Cork is in pretty good shape so the clubs and county board making these decisions mustn't be total idiots. I side with them.
On another note - if we think county boards shouldn't appoint selectors then do we think they should appoint managers? Maybe we should let the players pick their own managers?
arent club delegates supposedly representing their clubs views? its not exactly a free vote,they are supposed to represent the thinking of the majority of their club members?
IC players should group together and ballot the entire GAA membership in every club in Cork to get the true feeling over this chirade.
Because theres no doubt some club delegates probably voted what they think themselves and may not necessarily be representative of the majority clubmans view.
Can i ask you a simple question - would you go into business with someone you didn't know and had never met and with whom you had no prior dealings?
I doubt it.
I can't see how a manager can work with selectors he's never met or known. Only In Cork though. Only in Cork , they always have to be different. I don't know why Frank Murphy doesn't appoint himself manager and be done with it.
Interesting comments there Magpie - I can't disagree with them either -
What has been the reaction to Ben O'Connor ( a hurler ) calling for the football manager to stand down ??
What was this about ? To me it just seems totally off the beam - what planet are these boys living on ?????????
That's hardly the poijnt Indiana is it ?
The Cork football manager and selectors have been appointed and can't be stood down by the players or anybody else ! Simple as that - and for Ben O'Connor to call for them to step aside is way out !
QuoteThe Players arent playing for the County Board Zulu, They are playing for themselves,their families, their intercounty teammates,their Clubmates and the thousands of fans throughout Cork,im of the opinion they should play inspite of the county board and ignore any requests/orders from the county board delegates.
That's a nice concept BM but how can the players play without CB involvement? No county team can play against the wishes of a county board. Can you imagine the scenario where the CB fix club matches on the same day as a senior IC game. Do the players play for club or county?
There are many issues at play here, there is a power struggle between the CB and the players, there is the issue of the management team and there is the issue of Teddy Holland. No doubt there are sub plots like personality clashes and personal advancement issues but these go on in all counties. The delegates voted with the CB for various reasons, which include IMO, frustration with IC management power, anti-football agendas (by some), cronyism and a lack of balls. Of those only the first one is a justifiable reason for voting in favour of the proposal. And even that is short-sighted and wrong, as club structures won't improve just because CB men are amongst the backroom staff.
QuoteWhat has been the reaction to Ben O'Connor ( a hurler ) calling for the football manager to stand down ??
What was this about ? To me it just seems totally off the beam - what planet are these boys living on
I believe that is just the players showing that they are all on the same page. It isn't a hurler interferring in a football matter rather a show for the media/public that both squads are united on all issues.
QuoteI resent that remark. It makes no odds to me who gets thick over a democratically taken decision - I'll criticise them for it anyway. In this case it is intercounty players and yes - I do believe they think they are more equal than others. In future play the ball and not the man. I have no time for people who will not work within the structures of the GAA. It has its flaws but in general it has stood us in good stead for almost 125 years. GAA in Cork is in pretty good shape so the clubs and county board making these decisions mustn't be total idiots. I side with them.
On another note - if we think county boards shouldn't appoint selectors then do we think they should appoint managers? Maybe we should let the players pick their own managers?
I'll refer you to my previous point MS, if nobody supports the proposal for the CB to pick selectors, how can they delegates be representing the views of their clubs?
The club structure in Cork is in a shambles, the GAA in the city is struggling, to suggest that the success of the county with the second biggest population in Ireland is down to brilliant administration is disingenuous at best.
On your last point do you think that the CB should pick the manager and then pick his selectors for him?
Quote from: INDIANA on January 24, 2008, 01:59:36 PM
I don't know why Frank Murphy doesn't appoint himself manager and be done with it.
That is the most astute post on this thread.
Ego is the problem here.
Whose ego ???
To me, Ben O'Connor has made this statement purely to put pressure on Hollnad and the county board - I really feel sorry for Holland in the middle of the whole thing because he didn't create this - he's an innocent party.
QuoteTo me, Ben O'Connor has made this statement purely to put pressure on Hollnad and the county board - I really feel sorry for Holland in the middle of the whole thing because he didn't create this - he's an innocent party.
Sorry Orangeman I can't agree with there, he accepted the position while the players and the CB were fighting over the very issue of the management appointment process. If he was offered it why didn't he say to the CB 'look lads sort out your issues with the players first and then I'd love to take the job.' His actions have ensured he'll never manage a full strength Cork team again.
His actions have ensured he'll never manage a full strength Cork team again.
That's a big statement - so he's a casualty as well now too ???
Sort it out lads, by chance I'm in Cork the weekend of de Westmeath game and will be in dire need of escaping from a wedding party for a few hours...
QuoteHis actions have ensured he'll never manage a full strength Cork team again.
That's a big statement - so he's a casualty as well now too
Well obviously that is only my opinion. But since the current players won't play for him and since most in Cork would doubt his abilities at this level anyway, I can't see him getting a second chance 4-5 years down the line.
Quoteto suggest that the success of the county with the second biggest population in Ireland is down to brilliant administration is disingenuous at best.
I never suggested this and you know that. Stop telling lies. I said that GAA in Cork was in pretty good shape and that the guys running it mustn't be total idiots - a world away from what you contend I was saying above. So who is being disingenuos?
QuoteI'll refer you to my previous point MS, if nobody supports the proposal for the CB to pick selectors, how can they delegates be representing the views of their clubs?
I don't understand what you mean by this. Was there an opinion poll taken in Cork of club members views that differed greatly from the delegates or something? Where do you get your information from?
QuoteOn your last point do you think that the CB should pick the manager and then pick his selectors for him?
I think the CB should pick and appoint the manager. They should take soundings from the players on prospective candidates but not include them in the decision making process in my view. I think the CB should then work with the manager to identify selectors and then formally ratify them at a meeting. This seems to be what has happened here and is a perfectly sensible approach.
Holland is dead in the water then -
Do you accept that it is in order for Ben O'Connor to have called for Holland to step aside ??
Since you and unnamed others doubt his ability, it doesn't give him too much encouragement to continue.
QuoteSince you and unnamed others doubt his ability, it doesn't give him too much encouragement to continue.
While his abilities are a matter of opinion, he has lost the dressing room and therefore he can't continue. Once a manager loses the dressing room his time is past, unfortunately for Holland he lost it the moment he took the job.
QuoteQuote
I'll refer you to my previous point MS, if nobody supports the proposal for the CB to pick selectors, how can they delegates be representing the views of their clubs?
I don't understand what you mean by this. Was there an opinion poll taken in Cork of club members views that differed greatly from the delegates or something? Where do you get your information from?
I mean that no-one I have spoken to ( and I know many GAA people in Cork) or no-one on any discussion board (including this one, rebelgaa and AFR) have ever even suggested that the proposal was the correct method of selecting a backroom staff. That is a pretty wide range of people and would include many people who don't support the players strike. So is it possible that the club members of Cork have a view point that is polar opposite to all these people, I don't think anyone could argue that.
QuoteI think the CB should pick and appoint the manager. They should take soundings from the players on prospective candidates but not include them in the decision making process in my view. I think the CB should then work with the manager to identify selectors and then formally ratify them at a meeting. This seems to be what has happened here and is a perfectly sensible approach.
This isn't what was done, they wanted to appoint the selectors for the manager. So what they did was appoint a manager without consultation of the players and then wanted to appoint their own selectors without the input of the manager. The ironic thing is that the players are not looking for an input into picking the manager, they want the CB to pick the manager and then let him pick his own selectors. This was the agreed process from the 2002 strike, if Holland was selected by the CB and he then went away and picked the current backroom staff, Cork footballers & hurlers would be looking forward to the leagues as we speak. The CB tried to pull a fast one and it has blown up in their faces, they have failed the GAA in Cork on this issue and should be ashamed of themselves.
Quote
I mean that no-one I have spoken to ( and I know many GAA people in Cork) or no-one on any discussion board (including this one, rebelgaa and AFR) have ever even suggested that the proposal was the correct method of selecting a backroom staff. That is a pretty wide range of people and would include many people who don't support the players strike. So is it possible that the club members of Cork have a view point that is polar opposite to all these people, I don't think anyone could argue that.
But the club delegates to the County Board are hardly
all irrational? They must have had good reason for insisting that the County Board pick the selectors, even if this in most circumstances would not be regarded as the ideal?
I don't think there was a campaign by the county board to change the ruling - it was debated and voted upon democaratically - the players have got too big for their boots here - they should be honoured and privileged to play for Cork and not messig about like they are -
can't agree - the county board wants to return their setup to pre-2002 the players know this and realise they have zero chance of winning under this arrangement. They realise if they lose they head quietly into retirement with their All-ireland medals-while the Cork teams head for divisions 2 and 3 and Frank Murphy will have a hell of a legacy to look back upon. They may as well make a stand as they realise it will be a waste of their time under this setup. It's absolutely farcicial that a manager can't pick his selectors- already Holland's authority is undermined because of it.Why would you want to touch a team in this scenario - i wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.
QuoteBut the club delegates to the County Board are hardly all irrational? They must have had good reason for insisting that the County Board pick the selectors, even if this in most circumstances would not be regarded as the ideal?
Cronyism, self serving, anti-GPA, anti-inter county, following Franks lead, these are the reasons for many delegates voting the way they did. Why do you think the players want the county board to support a return to the old system if it's voted on by the clubs next year? Because they know if the top table support it then most delegates will fall in line.
QuoteI don't think there was a campaign by the county board to change the ruling - it was debated and voted upon democaratically - the players have got too big for their boots here - they should be honoured and privileged to play for Cork and not messig about like they are -
I'll refer you to my above post Orangeman, if the county board want something they tend to get it. As for it being debated on, well that is just plain wrong, it wasn't properly debated by clubs. The popint is the players are honoured to play for Cork but they want to be able to prepare properly. Only a player without pride in the jersey would play under an inadequate system
QuoteCronyism, self serving, anti-GPA, anti-inter county, following Franks lead, these are the reasons for many delegates voting the way they did.
This is a classic. Tell us all - who or what is "anti-inter county"? Also - you say "anti-GPA" like its a bad thing?
QuoteThis is a classic. Tell us all - who or what is "anti-inter county"? Also - you say "anti-GPA" like its a bad thing?
First off being blindly anti anything is a bad thing and a good few around here are exactly that when it comes to the GPA. Secondly by anti-IC I mean that many clubs are pissed off with the power of IC managers to cancel club games left, right and centre. Clubs want greater access to their players, which is fair enough, but supporting the CB's proposal isn't the way to go about it. Does that clear things up for you MS?
I agree with you about the "blindly" bit that you just added there. I would disagree with your assertion that a good few round here are blindly anti-GPA. There are one or two but largely I would say people can defend their stances with logical, cogent, well thought out arguments.
Anti-inter county could have meant a range of things. Thanks for clearing that up.
Zulu - I know you don't like the county board - and a lot of gaa supporters wouldn't have a great deal of time for them - but don't think that this is a county board or worse still an anti GPA thing - it's not - Cork footballers and hurlers are WRONG !!!! The county board were wrong in changing the rule - but the clubs voted on it - everybody is losing here -
I 'm sure Billy Morgan is sitting back taking some look at the situation and thanking God that he's away.
Your right Orangeman everyone is losing here but what are the players meant to do. Allow the CB go back on their word and accept a management team that took the position knowing that the players were in a dispute with the CB? I've already addressed the issue of the delegates (not the clubs by the way) vote and I think I've raised some doubts as to the validity of that vote. I'm not anti-county board, I'm currently a player, coach and club secretary but what's right is right. Hiding behind the democratic argument is easy but you have to look deeper, if the players don't stand up to this now it would quitely eat away at the heart of Cork GAA until eventually something much worse would occur.
Quote from: Zulu on January 24, 2008, 06:03:37 PM
QuoteThis is a classic. Tell us all - who or what is "anti-inter county"? Also - you say "anti-GPA" like its a bad thing?
First off being blindly anti anything is a bad thing and a good few around here are exactly that when it comes to the GPA. Secondly by anti-IC I mean that many clubs are pissed off with the power of IC managers to cancel club games left, right and centre. Clubs want greater access to their players, which is fair enough, but supporting the CB's proposal isn't the way to go about it. Does that clear things up for you MS?
Sorry - I don't buy that. People may be Anti-GPA but that doesn't mean that they're just blindly Anti-GPA. Most on this discussion board have the ability to put across coherent well thought out arguments in relation to their stance. It's a bit of a sweeping generalisation and does your argument no good to point to "a good few around here"
Zulu - the point is that the players are now paid to be play ( whether we like it or not ) - their role is not to pick management - nor is it to get involved in county board issues - and they should certainly NOT be out on strike - I had HUGE respect and admiration for the Cork footballers and in particuler the hurlers, but I must say that this respect and admiration is now less as a result of their naivety. I can't believe that Ben O'Connor came out and asked Holland to stand aside - It's something I just can't come to terms with.
QuoteZulu - the point is that the players are now paid to be play
I disagree strongly on that point but I won't say anymore as it is off topic. As for the rest of your post Orangeman well, I've already pointed out that the players don't want to pick the management team nor do they want to get involved in CB issues, they just want to play under the system that they and the CB agreed to in 2002. You seem to be taking the attitude that it doesn't matter what the CB did, the players should just get on with playing. I disagree, the boards job is to provide the foundation on which the IC squads can build successful seasons, this year the CB attempted to break those foundations (and their word). And as such the players have every right to refuse to play. I cannot understand how anyone can support a CB that goes back on its word, attempts to put in place a system that no-one agrees with and appoints a management team while in the middle of a dispute with the players. As far as I can see the players were a day or two away from being asked to bend over!
I think we all know Zulu that this dispute has little enough to do with appointment of selectors- after all Holland was allowed to approve his selectors and approval of selectors has always been required by the county board. Plus the county champions could appoint a selector that the manager did not pick. To be honest the appointment of selectors has damn all influence on whether Cork win the AI or not and the importance of managers being allowed to appoint their selectors has been exaggerated ridiculously.
Neither do I buy in to the argument that this was all designed to get rid of Morgan. I am sure there were other more certain ways to shaft Morgan if that was the plan – credit Frank with more brains if he wanted to hatch a plot to get rid of Billy. My understanding is that there is genuine concern on Cork at the way the club scene is going and in particular at the alarming decline in the standard of the senior championship is football and hurling. There is a fairly widespread belief (maybe mistakenly) that there is over emphasis on county teams and that county teams and their management are now detached from the rest of the GAA community. So it is not the County Board (or the executive) regaining power as some simplistically argue but about what many believe is saving the club scene. This I genuinely believe is what led to the motion and not some nefarious plot. It would have been much better I believe if a more holistic approach was taken to addressing the problem and the proposal re the selectors was somewhat knee jerk and not thought through.
None of this however gave the players the right to threaten strike immediately and the hurlers should have stayed out of it. The threat to strike made the situation impossible and I spoke with one club delegate who voted against the motion both nights but now believes that no concession should be made to the player's demands especially in relation to the sacking of Teddy Holland. The issue is now exacerbated by turning it in to a Pro and Anti Frank Murphy issue and while the media will not say this, it is in effect what this is now about. Some prominent players including those with a profile in the GPA see Frank as a stumbling block to their agenda and are determined to face down the county board. At the same time there are many genuine GAA people who believe that if the players are allowed to dictate to the rest of the GAA in Cork then it is the end of the GAA as a community organisation that has the club at its centre.
Though not from Cork I have been involved in the GAA at club level since I moved here and also rarely miss a Cork game in hurling or football and at all grades. I know many people have strong feelings about Frank Murphy but I feel his role in this is exaggerated. There is a real issue regarding the club scene and it needs to be sorted and it needs more than having the county board appoint selectors. However as a first principle there is need to have some form of democracy and equality and for that reason I cannot support the strike. It is a total over reaction to a democratic decision, a decision that would have little impact on either team. In fact I believe the footballers would be far better off facing up to the reality that they were humiliated in Croke Park last September (with selectors they had no problem with) and looking at what they have to do so they can match teams like Kerry. Instead they are acting like prima donnas when the reality is that most of them would not get next or near the county panels of the top 5 or 6 teams in the country. I am beginning to wonder if this strike is convenient for the players and do they have the balls to face up to another year of trying to win an AI. Going on strike is easy - having the balls and ability to win an AI is another matter.
I have breen a trade unionist for over 30 years. In all that time I have never heard of a situatiuon where union members felt entitled to tell their bosses/employers who could be their management. Certainly you have the right to complain/strike/take any other action if you are mistreated etc but you can not expect to have the right to veto who is sent in to manage you.
In certain counties a lax attitude by County Boards has allowed County team management to beggar & near bankrupt them. County Boards as the providers of the necessary finance have not only the right but the duty to select & oversee those who run what is their biggest expenditure
QuoteI have breen a trade unionist for over 30 years. In all that time I have never heard of a situatiuon where union members felt entitled to tell their bosses/employers who could be their management. Certainly you have the right to complain/strike/take any other action if you are mistreated etc but you can not expect to have the right to veto who is sent in to manage you.
They don't want this, the players simply want the CB to revert to the agreed system for selecting management teams.
QuoteIn certain counties a lax attitude by County Boards has allowed County team management to beggar & near bankrupt them. County Boards as the providers of the necessary finance have not only the right but the duty to select & oversee those who run what is their biggest expenditure
CB don't provide the finance, players (club & county) and supporters do. And the level of this finance is very dependent on IC success.
Good post TJ and I'd agree with quite a bit of it, however you dismiss some of the popular theories going around at the moment like, 'it was a means to get rid of Billy' and claim the 'selector issue' is a red herring, which you could be right about. But you then come up with pretty far fetched ones yourself like the players are striking because it is... "convenient for the players and do they have the balls to face up to another year of trying to win an AI. Going on strike is easy - having the balls and ability to win an AI is another matter." I couldn't accept that for a moment, you also say that "prominent players including those with a profile in the GPA see Frank as a stumbling block to their agenda and are determined to face down the county board." I think the GPA is becoming the boogeyman in the GAA and if players stand up for themselves the GPA are behind it or it is part of a long-term GPA agenda.
However you are 100% right about the situation between clubs and the IC scene, the problem is that the clubs and county board have taken a leaf out of the George Bush book of diplomacy. I know the frustration of the club scene only too well and something has to be done, but it is through dialogue and compromise that a way forward can be brought about.
You say the players have no right to strike, on the contrary they have every right to strike. They volunteer their time and if they don't want to play then they don't have too, if grassroots opinion is strongly against this strike then the CB should have no problem finding alternative squads. Besides I don't accept that the votes were democracy at work rather an example of a very flawed version of it. I've already asked this question and no-one who claims these votes were democratic has answered, so I'll do so one more time, if no-one wants the 'new' system as proposed by the CB then how can a vote which endorses it, be democratic?
Quote from: Zulu on January 25, 2008, 11:00:12 AMif no-one wants the 'new' system as proposed by the CB then how can a vote which endorses it, be democratic?
But the delegates DO want the new system. They voted for it, democratically, not once but twice.
And the second time they voted for it, they did so in the full knowledge that their decision would cause controversy.
And as I said earlier
Quote
...the club delegates to the County Board are hardly all irrational? They must have had good reason for insisting that the County Board pick the selectors, even if this in most circumstances would not be regarded as the ideal?
To take another example, this time from politics. In last May's election, the Irish people voted to re-elect the outgoing government. A month later, some people who voted FF were telling opinion pollsters that they didn't support either FF or its leader. The general conclusion was that large numbers of people seemed to have voted in the election for FF, not on the basis that they liked or supported FF, but because they regarded FF as the best option available, or "the best of a bad lot" as it were.
There may be a contradiction here, but I don't think you could label the 2007 election as "undemocratic" simply because of this contradiction. Likewise the Cork delegates' vote.
QuoteBut the delegates DO want the new system. They voted for it, democratically, not once but twice.
And the second time they voted for it, they did so in the full knowledge that their decision would cause controversy.
But that is the whole point, delegates are meant to represent their clubs opinion not their own or even their club chairmans or secretary. Did all the clubs call a meeting of all their members and get their opinions? I know of at least three clubs that didn't. Did all the delegates vote as their clubs instructed? It wouldn't be the first time if some didn't. If clubs did call a meeting was it properly debated? Again, I can't fathom how you can vote to bring in something that nobody seems to support.
QuoteBut that is the whole point, delegates are meant to represent their clubs opinion not their own or even their club chairmans or secretary. Did all the clubs call a meeting of all their members and get their opinions? I know of at least three clubs that didn't. Did all the delegates vote as their clubs instructed? It wouldn't be the first time if some didn't. If clubs did call a meeting was it properly debated? Again, I can't fathom how you can vote to bring in something that nobody seems to support.
The clubs have already voted TWICE on this subject. Would you like them to vote a third time?. Do you think the result would be any different?
If any club is unhappy with their county board delegates, they can remove them, either at AGM or EGM. Has ANY club taken such an action in the light of the previous votes? If not, I don't think your "undemocatic" allegation holds much water.
Cork county board should continue to field in minor and under 21's - if necessary play the under 21's at senior level - forget about these lads who think they're bigger than the Co. board - they might be happy to play next year.
QuoteThe clubs have already voted TWICE on this subject. Would you like them to vote a third time?. Do you think the result would be any different?
If any club is unhappy with their county board delegates, they can remove them, either at AGM or EGM. Has ANY club taken such an action in the light of the previous votes? If not, I don't think your "undemocatic" allegation holds much water.
Not many people in most clubs want to be club delegates, I don't think you can take the fact that clubs didn't demand their removal as evidence that they are necessarily happy with the vote. Lots of people are not happy with players decision to stike and many don't support it, the second vote, I believe was in part the club delegates getting their back up over the players threath of a strike. This is a very complicated issue and there are a lot of grey areas but whatever way you cut it a vote that doesn't express the wish of the majority can't be a successful application of the democratic process.
The players are willing to put this to the delegates again next year on the condition that the CB executive support a return to the original method of selecting a management team. I think that tells a lot about how the players believe the democratic process works.
It's not a bit complicated - players should get on with playing !
Quote
Not many people in most clubs want to be club delegates,
Not in my club. I don't think clubs have problems finding delegates. The delegate attendance at my county's monthly meeting is about 95% on average - nearer 100% if you exclude July when some people are on holidays. I presume Cork is similar.
QuoteI don't think you can take the fact that clubs didn't demand their removal as evidence that they are necessarily happy with the vote. Lots of people are not happy with players decision to stike and many don't support it, the second vote, I believe was in part the club delegates getting their back up over the players threath of a strike.
This is a very complicated issue and there are a lot of grey areas
I think you are agreeing with me here. The delegates DID have their reasons for voting as they did, even if these reasons are complicated.
Quotewhatever way you cut it a vote that doesn't express the wish of the majority can't be a successful application of the democratic process.
But the votes DID express the wishes of the majority. Otherwise the majority would have voted No.
QuoteThe players are willing to put this to the delegates again next year on the condition that the CB executive support a return to the original method of selecting a management team. I think that tells a lot about how the players believe the democratic process works.
If the players want (through their clubs) to put the issue to a vote once again next year, then they are fully entitled to do so. That is democracy. However it strikes me as odd that they seem prepared to accept the results of County Board votes when a vote goes their way, but claim a lack of democracy when a vote goes against their wishes.
QuoteIt's not a bit complicated - players should get on with playing !
Oh well, if you say so.
;) :D :D - seriously they should - any symapthy they had will quickly disappear - and I'm from Tyrone -
QuoteNot in my club. I don't think clubs have problems finding delegates. The delegate attendance at my county's monthly meeting is about 95% on average - nearer 100% if you exclude July when some people are on holidays. I presume Cork is similar.
Well many clubs do struggle to get people to take up even easy administrative postions, a position like club delegate can be very hard for many clubs to fill. Anyway I'm not sure that clubs would know how there delegate voted on the night and even if they did I'm sure many would be slow to remove him over that vote.
QuoteBut the votes DID express the wishes of the majority. Otherwise the majority would have voted No.
We seem to be coming at this from different sides but I can't see how you can say the vote expressed the wishes of the majority. I know for a fact that some clubs didn't debate it, neither of us know to what extent any club did, i.e. was every club member at the meeting, was it properly discussed and debated? It is also my understanding that junior clubs don't have their own delegate, but rather a number of them are represented by one, based on geography. So it seems highly unlikely that they all got to express their views. I keep coming back to this but if no-one wants the system voted in, how can the vote be an example of a working democracy? I haven't met one person, read one newspaper article or read one post on any discussion board that says the 'new' system is correct, not one. If this was a GPA debate and all these people were saying the GPA should disband, most lads on here would be talking about how the 'grassroots' have spoken. Yet you are suggesting that all that should be ignored because 200-300 individuals voted differently. If that is democracy then it is a malfunctioning version of it.
QuoteIf the players want (through their clubs) to put the issue to a vote once again next year, then they are fully entitled to do so. That is democracy. However it strikes me as odd that they seem prepared to accept the results of County Board votes when a vote goes their way, but claim a lack of democracy when a vote goes against their wishes.
The question, in my mind, is why the CB put forward a proposal, that no-one was looking for?
Why if they wanted this on the table did they not flag the issue and let clubs debate it before voting on it?
Why once it was voted on and the players reacted did they proceed with appointing a manager, thus adding fuel to the fire?
And why having gone through all this did they go against the wishes of the delegates and give the manager a say in the picking of selectors?
Ultimately if anyone in Cork or elsewhere wants to question the validity of a County Board vote or decision on the basis of being undemocratic or improper in any way, they can take their case to the DRA.
Quote from: cornafean on January 25, 2008, 03:57:24 PM
Ultimately if anyone in Cork or elsewhere wants to question the validity of a County Board vote or decision on the basis of being undemocratic or improper in any way, they can take their case to the DRA.
Thus doesnt change the fact that the decision is a disgrace and clearly in the worst interests of Cork senior intercounty side.Clearly it will be impossible Clearly the senior intercount sides can not be managed by anyone of substance under these rules. You are left with the likes of T Holland, clearly not up to it on all known form and abilty, chosen only because others wont take it . Th same with the hurlers next yr. The vast majority who voted in favour clearly admit that thedecision is wrong yet went ahead and voted that way. Thius is how truely bizarre the whole episode has become.
Do the players have a manager in mind ????????? Is it just that they don't like Holland ? Had their preferred manager been installed as manager would they still be on strike now ?
Orangeman it isn't Teddy that is the problem but the fact that he took the job during this dispute.
So is it now a case of anybody BUT Teddy ?
Well to a degree, Teddy Holland picked a side in this argument, he should have stayed out of it until it was sorted. The players will play for a manager who can pick his own selectors, a very reasonable position to hold if you ask me.
How do the Cork players and their apologists think that they will be able to get rid of one manager (Teddy Holland) and get one acceptable to them appointed in time to pick a team to play Meath on Sunday week?. I think that they have run out of time for this year's National Football League, unless Ben O'Connor wants to pick the team himself as he was the first to state publicly that the foorballers would not play if Holland was the manager.
Well I don't know if Teddy will resign at this stage but if he did it is my understanding that the U21 management team would take over in the short-term.
QuoteThe players are willing to put this to the delegates again next year on the condition that the CB executive support a return to the original method of selecting a management team. I think that tells a lot about how the players believe the democratic process works.
It shows more about how little the players understand democracy. In fact if the players really believed in democracy they would be demanding that the executive remain neutral.
I am amazed Zulu at how you and others refuse to accept the democratic decision of the County Board and try to imply that somehow the vote was not fair. While no doubt the democratic process could be improved this is the same process that appointed Donal O'Grady, John Allen, Billy etc. You cannot adopt an a la carte approach i.e. accept democracy when it suits and reject it when it does not.
I fully accept that this issue has been badly handled by all involved but the decision of the players to strike was a completely over the top reaction and made possible solving of the problem more difficult. I thinkyou should accept this Zulu - while your loyalty to players is admirable it is also short sighted. And I do believe that the GPA getting involved also did not help - I see again today they are making statements on the matter. Now can anybody tell me what business it is of county players in Armagh, Mayo or any other county as to how Cork pick their selctors - and that is what the GPA involvement amounts to.
In fairness TJ I think the GPA are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they comment on something some people will say what business is it of theirs, if they don't, some people will ask how come they're not commenting on this situation.
Quotethis is the same process that appointed Donal O'Grady, John Allen, Billy etc. You cannot adopt an a la carte approach i.e. accept democracy when it suits and reject it when it does not.
The only reason these men accepted the position of Cork coach was because they could appoint their own selectors. So why did the CB attempt to change that? As you have pointed out there is more to this than meets the eye, but IMO it is the CB that re-ignited this fight to rest back control from the players. The started a fight that no-one wanted and no-one needs, but for the longterm good of Cork GAA they need to be faced down IMO. Otherwise this will fester and bubble up every few years and that will do Cork GAA no good.
There have been acres of newsprint used to comment on the Cork players strike and a lot of thecomment has been of the "doom and gloom" nature. One angle that I have not seen any comment on is that many supporters in neighbouring counties notably in Kerry, Tipperary and Waterford think it is hilarious to see the Cork players and County Board at each others' throats. Cork have ruled the roost in Munster for so long, off the field, that there will be very little sympathy in the rest of the province for either players or officials. There will not be any tears shed if Cork have to withdraw from the National Leagues in Hurling and Football and are relegated as a result and it would be even better if they were thrown out of the Munster Championships, because they were unable to field teams. They really need to cop themselves on down there!.
Quoteit is hilarious to see the Cork players and County Board at each others' throats. Cork have ruled the roost in Munster for so long, off the field, that there will be very little sympathy in the rest of the province for either players or officials. There will not be any tears shed if Cork have to withdraw from the National Leagues in Hurling and Football and are relegated as a result and it would be even better if they were thrown out of the Munster Championships, because they were unable to field teams. They really need to cop themselves on down there!.
Exactly Onlooker the other counties are having a good laugh. Any solidarity from other counties (especially from Kerry) has to be viewed with some scepticism. That is why the GPA support for the strike makes no sense.
Fair play to the players for sticking to their guns. Reading Sean Og in the Irish times today really puts the Cork County Board where they are- a shambolic outfit. It's as i suspected- while the rest of you argue about the semantics of delegates/DRA/GPA/votes/democracy etc you forget the fundamental issue that supercedes all of that. that is Cork giving their inter county players the best opportunity of winning the All-Ireland. The Cork County Board have gone back to the dark days of 2002- cutting back on everything and largely wanting to have a say in selection. You read that article this morning and it makes you realise what a joke the Cork County Board is.
As Sean Og says the Cork County Board would prefer to see Cork lose as long as they can cut costs and hold all the power.
Teddy Holland should never have taken the job. Their were 6 other guys in line for that job before he took it who all cried off when they relaised they couldn't pick their selectors. It was a foolish decision as he has now ostracided himself as a County Board man forever more with the players.
Indiana - Why would the Co. Board want to cut costs? Maybe its because they are responsable for running games for more then just the elite county players and feel that to enable them maintain budgets within reasonable amounts they require an input into the management set up. What other operation would work on the basis that a small number get what ever they want with out any control on their spending or behaviour. The Players position is nonsensical and makes no sense. It is past time County Boards lived up to their responsabilities and told County teams and their management who was in charge and carried the financial 'can'.
An old fashioned and 'conserative' view but he who pays the piper must call the tune. If the players don't like it its a free country and they can walk away.
Cork sohuld field their under 21 sides - if the senior team don't want to play, forget about them - it's not as if Cork players are poorly treated - they have no issues there - in fact they're probably too well treated.
Most inter county teams are financed externally (the serious ones are anyway) zoyler. It's very simple anyone who has operated at a high level- knows the difference the little things make. The Cork County Board are cutting back on things like gym membership/meals that are a basic requirement for every team. Cork players simply want to be on the same level as everyone else- can't see what's wrong with that ?
County boards picking selectors for managers- rules a number of quality canditates out of the job- good managers will not take the role under these constraints. you would have to be clinicallly insane to take the Cork manager's role under such a system- to have selectors telling tales back to Frank Murphy and Co - the players know this- realise they have little chance of success under this scenario and have spoken out- perfectly right in my opinion. They may well all walk away- but it will finish the GAA off in Cork for a decade - still asa dublin hurling fan maybe we'll pick up 2 handy points in the NHL!
??? ???
Anyone able to confirm the rumour that the intervention by Kieran Mulvey of the LRC into this dispute came about as a result of Dessie Farrell, acting on behlaf of the Cork GAA panels, asking Bertie Ahern to assist in finding a solution that would help the players save face. Apparently there is concern that the striking Cork players are having too much of a negative impact on the public and that it could jeporadise and overshadow the GPA's big issue in the upcoming congress.
Have not heard that rumour Stephenite but there is a new rumour down here every 5 mins. Maybe Mulvey will persuade Holland to step down and put in Maughan. That would make two counties happy :D
Indiana - Its still the County Board who carry the can and are responsible for the organisation and running of the games in the county. There has to be somebody in charge and the more I here the County players - football & hurling the more arrogant and ignorant of real life they become - if they walk away there will still be a County Championship & Leagues etc. There will still be underage games. For once 'The Club' could become the real centre of the Association.
Have to agree Paidi O'Se in the Indo. 'In fact, I'm amazed they have the stomach for a strike, especially after the way they performed in Dublin last September. Pull back lads, and get on with the football.'
A number of the Cork players have been very critical of Frank Murphy in the media in the last few days and one can only imagine what they are saying about him in private, but the footballers were very glad of his influence in 2002 when Cork brought on 6 subs in the replay of the Munster Final against Tipperary. It was largely thanks to him that they were able to retain their cup and medals, when the rule clearly suggested that Cork should have forfeited the match.
Sean Og and Joe Deane give some insight of the players point of view.
Deane calls for Holland resignation
by Ruairi Corr, 27 January 2008
Joe Deane has said that the impasse which threatens to destroy Cork's hurling and football seasons will only be ended by the resignation of Teddy Holland.
The sides have been on strike since December in protest at the county board decision to strip the manager of the power to choose his own select ors. The footballers led the strike, the hurlers joining them in solidarity.
Holland was subsequently appointed football manager, replacing Billy Morgan in a move which many players have opposed as a breaking of their strike.
Cork are scheduled to begin their National Football League campaign next weekend against Meath. If the issue is not resolved by then and Cork fail to appear, the footballers will be relegated to Division 3.
The hurlers are set to open their league campaign the following weekend. They pulled out of January`s Waterford Crystal tourament, unable to field a team.
Hurling star Deane feels that progress will only be achieved by Holland leaving, as it is now understood that the board and the players are close to an agreement on the select ors issue.
"The players feel very strongly about this and there is no way either squad is going back to training unless Teddy and his team step down," Deane told the Sunday Independent.
"We want to give Cork the best opportunity to win All-Irelands. There are two issues here – the first is that next September the board will recommend to delegates to revert back to the old system where a manager picks his own select ors. At this stage I'd be hopeful that problem will be solved soon.
"The second issue is that the footballers just will not play under Teddy and being honest, I cannot see a way out of that. The only way either team will play for Cork is if Teddy resigns. I wouldn't dream of telling him what to do and he has already come out and said he won't step down. But the decision is his."
Gerald McCarthy's tenure as hurling manager lasts until the end of the season, but he has already declared that he will retire if the county board's decision on appointing select ors is not reversed by then.
The County Board stands to lose over €100,000 if both teams pull out of the league. The 2007 seasons saw them take €68,224 from hurling and €40,115 from football.
Seán Óg Ó hAilpín believes there is little hope of a resolution in the dispute between Cork`s hurlers and footballers and the county`s GAA administrators without the resignations of county secretary Frank Murphy and county football manager Teddy Holland. Tom Humphriesreports.
In an interview with The Irish Timestoday, the former hurler of the year says he does not believe Murphy, one of the country`s most influential GAA administrators, "can get the trust of players back".
"It would help a lot in the long term if Frank just stepped down and a new guy and a new regime stepped in because I don`t think he can get the trust of players back," Ó hAilpín says.
The footballers and hurlers of Cork have been on strike since the autumn when a county board motion gave officials the power to choose select ors to serve with the county`s GAA managers. Previously, the manager had the final say over his backroom team.
Ó hAilpín says there is no visible prospect of short-term progress in the dispute without the resignation of Holland. He says that in the long term the welfare of Cork GAA would be best served by the resignation of Murphy.
Ó hAilpín considers Murphy the chief instigator in recent disputes and finds it difficult to see long-term improvement in relations between the county administration and its players while Murphy remains.
"Why in Cork is it always the county board up here and the players down there? Why is it we can`t strike up a relationship with these people and move on? Since I came in as a young fella there has been distrust.
"We don`t feel we can trust Frank. People find him hard to work with. Will he change? Players don`t seem to be valued by him for a start."
There have been repeated calls for Holland to resign. He was appointed as manager of the county footballers at a time when players called for any appointment to be delayed pending dialogue.
Ó hAilpín says that players are willing to shelve the issue to the autumn and resume training and playing immediately on the basis that Holland resign and the county board supports a return to the old select orial system.
In a separate development yesterday, it was confirmed that Kieran Mulvey, the chairman of the Labour Relations Commission, has agreed to a Croke Park request to attempt to mediate between the players and county board officials.
© 2008 The Irish Times
Quote from: Onlooker on January 27, 2008, 01:00:50 PM
A number of the Cork players have been very critical of Frank Murphy in the media in the last few days and one can only imagine what they are saying about him in private, but the footballers were very glad of his influence in 2002 when Cork brought on 6 subs in the replay of the Munster Final against Tipperary. It was largely thanks to him that they were able to retain their cup and medals, when the rule clearly suggested that Cork should have forfeited the match.
That was his job to do that, a job he is PAID to do.
Quote from: Onlooker on January 27, 2008, 01:00:50 PM
A number of the Cork players have been very critical of Frank Murphy in the media in the last few days and one can only imagine what they are saying about him in private, but the footballers were very glad of his influence in 2002 when Cork brought on 6 subs in the replay of the Munster Final against Tipperary. It was largely thanks to him that they were able to retain their cup and medals, when the rule clearly suggested that Cork should have forfeited the match.
That was his job to do that, a job he is PAID to do.
Paidi is right - how could the footballers come out and have a strike after being humiliated last September - they should catch themselves on - listening and talking to others, there is little sypmathy with the Cork footballers / hurlers - taking strike action is a poor way of resloving any dispute -
If the public had any sympathy for them on this issue, it has now disappeared against the background of a concerted media attack on Frank Murphy and the county board -
Sean Og's piece in the Times was ill judged and smacks of opportunism.
I have always admired greatly the Cork football and hurling sides, but they should really catch a grip and get back out onto the field.
Put the issue behind them and get it resolved in a democratic and sensible manner next winter.
Quote from: orangeman on January 27, 2008, 06:15:41 PM
Paidi is right - how could the footballers come out and have a strike after being humiliated last September - they should catch themselves on - listening and talking to others, there is little sypmathy with the Cork footballers / hurlers - taking strike action is a poor way of resloving any dispute -
If the public had any sympathy for them on this issue, it has now disappeared against the background of a concerted media attack on Frank Murphy and the county board -
Sean Og's piece in the Times was ill judged and smacks of opportunism.
I have always admired greatly the Cork football and hurling sides, but they should really catch a grip and get back out onto the field.
Put the issue behind them and get it resolved in a democratic and sensible manner next winter.
Cop youself on will ya, just because they lost a match means the footballers dont have a right to express themselves on an issue which will hinder the county greatly.Again who were the last team to beat Kerry in the championship? We have the best underage talent in the country and are about to throw it all away, just like in the 70's.
I ask the question what was the motive behind the board executive decision to put a motion forward to change the rights of picking the selectors. Answer that someone please because damn well beggers believe. A players ultimate dream is to win an All-Ireland and should be helped in acheiving this not hindered by ego maniacs that are the board executive and are damn well right not to play under the circumstances. Democratic decisions go out the window when there are sinister motives behind them
A players ultimate dream is to win an All-Ireland and should be helped in acheiving this not hindered by ego maniacs
The only egos that are being fed at the minute are the players - If you are one, catch a grip of yourself - going on strike is NO way to resolve this issue - play away this year and go and win an AI - Then you'll be better equipped to make your point next October !
If not, pack it in for good - give back the sponsored cars and let soebody who WANTS to play ofr Cork take your / their place(s).
Why the hurlers are sticking their necks out so far, I'll never know - perhaps it's the sinister forces you were alluding to earlier ! ;) ;) ;) ;D
QuoteThe only egos that are being fed at the minute are the players - If you are one, catch a grip of yourself - going on strike is NO way to resolve this issue - play away this year and go and win an AI - Then you'll be better equipped to make your point next October !
Sorry now OM but that's nonsensical, how would continuing to play this year better equip them to make their point next year? This has to be sorted this year and the players have used the only effective weapon in their arsenal. This is a brave move by the players, they have put their playing careers at risk for what they believe and for the good of Cork teams of the future.
I can't agree Zulu - I think if the players decided to play on this year, they would earn the respect and sympathy of the general public.
What happens if Holland were to step aside temporarily to allow the discussions to take place ?
Would the players play ?
QuoteDemocratic decisions go out the window when there are sinister motives behind them
No sorry, in a democratic organisation you go along with the decision made by the majority or if you can't you leave the organisation!
no orangeman they will only go back when he vacates the position. There is no point in them going back under this arrangement because there is zero chance of success under it- a point you seem to miss. These guys know what it takes to win an all-ireland and this ain't it. I fully agree with Sean Og when he says the county baord would prefer to lose provided they have an influence in selection and on the managment teams themselves.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 27, 2008, 07:46:26 PM
QuoteDemocratic decisions go out the window when there are sinister motives behind them
No sorry, in a democratic organisation you go along with the decision made by the majority or if you can't you leave the organisation!
That seems to be the point that's being missed. What do Zulu and the rest of the supporters of the players think is the logical conclusion of their argument? How can it be anything other than anarchy if any group within the organisation can decide to subvert any democratic decision with which they disagree?
That's leaving aside the ludicrous concept of striking from one's leisure time activities. For one thing, it's presumptuous of them to nominate themselves as members of the Cork senior team. That's not their prerogative and they are not members until they are selected. Therefore their "strike" has no sense, meaning or validity. The only reasonable course of action is for the Cork County Board to instruct Mr. Holland to proceed and pick a squad from those club players within the county who are available to play and to ignore those who aren't.
QuoteI can't agree Zulu - I think if the players decided to play on this year, they would earn the respect and sympathy of the general public.
What happens if Holland were to step aside temporarily to allow the discussions to take place ?
Would the players play ?
But Orangeman do you not think that this would just be postponing the fight, and in the mean time the causes of the argument would just fester.
As for Holland, either he goes or the players go, but I can't see the current squad and Holland ever working together. I think if Holland goes then the rest can be put on the back burner for the year, if he doesn't go then Cork GAA will be in serious trouble.
QuoteThat seems to be the point that's being missed. What do Zulu and the rest of the supporters of the players think is the logical conclusion of their argument? How can it be anything other than anarchy if any group within the organisation can decide to subvert any democratic decision with which they disagree?
That's leaving aside the ludicrous concept of striking from one's leisure time activities. For one thing, it's presumptuous of them to nominate themselves as members of the Cork senior team. That's not their prerogative and they are not members until they are selected. Therefore their "strike" has no sense, meaning or validity. The only reasonable course of action is for the Cork County Board to instruct Mr. Holland to proceed and pick a squad from those club players within the county who are available to play and to ignore those who aren't.
But Hardy the point is that the vote isn't democracy at work but politics gone bad. And you'll find that not too many players will make themselves available for the county team under these circumstances and if they do get two squads together a couple of hammerings in the league and championship would soon have supporters forgetting about 'the democratic' process and demanding the players back.
QuoteBut Hardy the point is that the vote isn't democracy at work but politics gone bad
You will have to do better than this Zulu - meaningless waffle. Some of your arguments up to now have some validity (unlike Ringy) but this is nonsene. Either you have democracy or not. You cannot have it on a selective basis or have someone define what is democratic and what is not purely from their own perspective.
I am a member of a club in Cork. I abide by the decisions taken at meetings even though often I do not agree with them. Our club delegate voted against the motion to change the selection process but is adamant that the democratic decision must be upheld. What you and others seem to advocate is that the players on county panels make the decisions and the county board rubber stamp them. From what I hear the county board went more than half way to meet the players demands but the players want total victory and to score one over the county board.
Quotefully agree with Sean Og when he says the county baord would prefer to lose provided they have an influence in selection and on the managment teams themselves
Rubbish Indiana. I know people on the CB executive and like every GAA person winning AIs is what matters to them. This sort of nonsense is thrown about without any basis whatsoever. I think you and others should realsie that the people who make up CB executives all over the country are for the most part decent hardworking men and women, passionate about the GAA and who give a lot of their free time to the Association. I wonder do the critics like you do as much
I'd say i do a lot more than you Tatler and probably know a hell of a lot more than you do when it comes to knowing what it takes to win at inter county level. And i do know this- that is an unworkable arrangement concocted by the Cork County Board as a means of regaining some of the power they perceive to think they lost in 2002. It's madness in this day and age to expect to get any quality manager under this arrangement - and do you know something they won't. All Murphy and Co want is a couple of county board patsys in charge that they can order about at will. I would suggest to you to read Justiin Mc Carthy's autobiography to get an insight into the inner runnings of the Cork County Board.
If Cork are happy to field second strings in the national league-suits me fine- a handy two points for our hurlers which might keep us afloat. I just think it's a shame that's all- because you may as well hand over the Liam Mc Carthy to Kilkenny already.
QuoteYou will have to do better than this Zulu - meaningless waffle. Some of your arguments up to now have some validity (unlike Ringy) but this is nonsene. Either you have democracy or not. You cannot have it on a selective basis or have someone define what is democratic and what is not purely from their own perspective.
That's your opinion and your entitled to it TJ but I don't accept that this vote was democracy at work. For the vote to be a democratic representation of the views of Cork GAA members, the CB should have contacted each and every club in Cork told them that they were proposing this change and allowed plenty of time for clubs to arrange meetings to discuss this. Then we could be sure that the vote represented the views of the club members and not those of club delegates. You cannot deny that some delegates (at least) vote in whatever the executive support. That is why the players want the board to support a return to the old system and allow the clubs to vote again. Why did the CB bring this up when no-one felt the need to change anything?
Your modesty is touching Indiana and I will bow to your superior prowess as player, coach and administrator! However I was not asking if your contribution to the Association was as great as my modest input but if you contributed as much as maligned county board officials.
As regards the dispute here in Cork you have chosen a pretty simplistic approach without knowing much of the detail and you do not appear as the sort of person to listen to any rational or dissenting argument. Life is too short for debating with people like you.
On the other hand I can have a debate with Zulu and I will try and answer his points:
No the issue of democracy is not my view point it is the generally accepted way democracy works. As regards the decision to change the selection process it was voted on twice and the clubs knew exactly what they were voting on the second time. The first motion was proposed by Bob Honohan and as far as I know it was a solo run by Bob. In an earlier post I said I thought it was ill advised but was a perhaps well meaning but wrong way to address the club v county issue that is a huge issue in Cork. I believe the players maybe genuinely but mistakenly saw it as an attempt by the county board to get back power and to get rid of Billy Morgan. I also think that had the players not threatened strike that the motion would have been reversed on the second vote (three weeks after the first). However many clubs saw the strike threat as blackmail – thus the players are equally culpable for the mess. I do think that making wild statements about the motives or intentions of CB members is unhelpful and Sean Bog's assertion that CB officials would prefer power to AIs is the type of stuff that is best left out of reasoned debate
If I were a member of the Cork county board and the delegates had voted teice to change the system, I'd be saying to the players to just get on with it - whether we're in a club or county situation, not all of us agree with or approve of the way chairmen / secreatries go about their business, but we just get on with it - I'm damn sure we've all played under managers we didn't like or approved of - but what did we do ? Go on strike ??? I don't think so. We just got on with it -
But oh no, not Cork ! Do you think you've some God given rights to the GAA or something - hand back your sponsored cars and all your perks and jobs that you got from being high profile IC stars.
And as well as that, move aside and let people who want to wear the jersey take your places -
Right now Cork GAA is a laughing stock and every time Joe Deane or Sean Og or Ben O'Connor does an interview and insists that Holland should step aside for the good of Cork GAA, they make bigger idiots out of themselves !
So here's my advice again to all of you who are on strike - STEP ASIDE FOR THE GOOD OF THE GAA - HOLLAND CAN STEP ASIDE TOO IF THAT'S WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY !!!!!!!!
Then Cork GAA can get on with it -
You have some cheek telling Frank Murphy to resign his position - Frank Murphy was doing good for the GAA in Cork long before you were born - most of the players will come and go - so wise up and either put up or shut up !
I thought Sean Og's contribution was outrageous - I always had massive respect for Sean Og and his contribution to Cork GAA- But for him to come with this statement that the CB didn't want AI titles and all they wanted was power was such a silly, naive and ill considered statement coming from someone who ought to know better.
Last year, when Frank Murphy was running around trying to get the hurlers off after Semplegate, he was a great man - but now he's a greedy power freak !!!!!! What a shame ! Sean Og and the rest are losing respect and making statements like this means that you can never take them back. Sean Og will come and go - hurling / football careers DON'T last forever and should be enjoyed when they're in the middle of them.
For God's sake lads, please stop the strike and go and win the AI instead ! PLEASE
QuoteNo the issue of democracy is not my view point it is the generally accepted way democracy works. As regards the decision to change the selection process it was voted on twice and the clubs knew exactly what they were voting on the second time. The first motion was proposed by Bob Honohan and as far as I know it was a solo run by Bob. In an earlier post I said I thought it was ill advised but was a perhaps well meaning but wrong way to address the club v county issue that is a huge issue in Cork. I believe the players maybe genuinely but mistakenly saw it as an attempt by the county board to get back power and to get rid of Billy Morgan. I also think that had the players not threatened strike that the motion would have been reversed on the second vote (three weeks after the first). However many clubs saw the strike threat as blackmail – thus the players are equally culpable for the mess. I do think that making wild statements about the motives or intentions of CB members is unhelpful and Sean Bog's assertion that CB officials would prefer power to AIs is the type of stuff that is best left out of reasoned debate
Again I agree with your assessment of why the delegates voted the way they did the second time TJ. They reacted to the players strike threat, and while I thought the players over-reacted to the initial vote they would have eventually had to go on srike to get their voices heard. I stand by my comment questioning the validity of the vote, but even if I'm wrong and the vote is the democratically expressed view of the Cork GAA membership I still support the players.Why? Because the CB introduced a proposal that effects only the IC teams and was then voted on by people with an axe to grind with that same IC set up.
Players put an awful amount of time and effort into representing their county, administrators job is to facilitate them to the best of their ability. They should create the environment for success not try and hinder that process. If the CB wanted to sort out the club situation in Cork then they should behave like men, face down IC managers if they make unreasonable demands, but don't engage in back ally politics. IMO the CCB don't go about their business in a open and straight forward manner, they don't conduct themselves in a manly fashion, i.e. say what you mean and mean what you say
Don't get out over your pram anyway Tatler - you're typical of the mindset of some of the contributors we have here once someone takes their ball away . Life is pretty simple and it's a simple argument to me. Managers should be permitted to pick their own selectors in this and age and in the year 2008 anything else is simply unworkable. Cork won't get any manager with a track record under that arrangement and as a result it'll be a long time before either Sam or Liam visits the banks of the Lee again. The players know this- and realise it would be pointless to train under such an arrangement where the county board would simply interfere with everything. That's the crux of the argument the rest is just semantics.
Quotethey would have eventually had to go on srike to get their voices heard.
Perhaps Zulu but they would have a lot more support and credibility if they had waited. And also the CB did row back immediately and conceded that the managers would have to approve selectors. Unlike others I do not see the selectors as big an issue as some make them out to be and as far as I know from pretty reliable sources Billy over ruled all the selectors on the selection of Masters ahead of Goulding for the AI.
Your loyalty to the players is to be admired but sometimes they can be wrong. As reagards the motives of the CB I think there is always a strong anti CB lobby in Cork and will be as long as Frank is there. I have no axe to grind with either players or CB but I do feel that some of the stuff about actions or motives of the CB officials has more to do with people with axes to grind rather than having any basis in reality.
As regards sorting out the club/county issue I agree (and have said so before) that it is a much bigger problem and there is no easy way to sort out. In Cork there are many who feel that the county teams must come first while others see the clubs as the priority. Simple it aint!!
Quote from: INDIANA on January 27, 2008, 10:06:49 PM
Don't get out over your pram anyway Tatler - you're typical of the mindset of some of the contributors we have here once someone takes their ball away . Life is pretty simple and it's a simple argument to me. Managers should be permitted to pick their own selectors in this and age and in the year 2008 anything else is simply unworkable. Cork won't get any manager with a track record under that arrangement and as a result it'll be a long time before either Sam or Liam visits the banks of the Lee again. The players know this- and realise it would be pointless to train under such an arrangement where the county board would simply interfere with everything. That's the crux of the argument the rest is just semantics.
Name me any successful sports side in any code anywhere in the world where the players had a veto over management, no matter what the reason?
Having considered the impasse today it seems as if the situation can only be resolved by Teddy Holland stepping resigning.
If he resigns, he will assume the high moral ground. Any sympathy that the players may have had will disappear. Frank Murphy will still be in his job - and the players will think that they will have "won". But it will set down a marker and county boards will not pander to the players every whim.
When Cork players are seen driving round in their sponsored cars or asking € 500 for a training session, people will look at them in a new and different light.
What will emerge from this is that the association is bigger than the players but that the players have had undue influence in this situation.
So a new line will have been drawn in the sand. Everything will have changed forever !
What would be really revelotionary would be for the entire Co. Board to resign and hand complete control to the intercounty platers and say @OK lads - no power without resposability - its all yours. Best of Luck!'
Make no mistake- what the players are looking for is all the power and none of the resposability.
Let's forget about the Cork strikers and move on.
We can do without them.
Let's forget about the Cork strikers and move on.
We can do without them.
I'd have to agree with you Armaghexile and so do a lot of neutrals - but unfortunately the Cork players think they're bigger than the association and are insisting on the humiliation of their democratically elected manager - the sad thing is that Holland will shortly resign and the egos will have been fed ( again ) !
Armagh Exile you are 100% correct. Let the Cork players sulk at home and the other 31 counties will carry on playing the games. In time, a new generation of Cork players will come along to wear the "Blood and Bandage" with pride.
The reality is Holland wouldn't have even made the short list had Cork not adopted these selection procedures. And everybody knows it. The players are entitled to a voice too- they know they have no chance of winning under managements using this system. At the end of the day it is they who have to train 5-6 days a week and the least they should expect is the same chance as every other county at the outset of the season- which they don't under this arrangement. If I were the players at this stage - i'd simply withdraw from the panel- let Frank Murphy pick a squad from the remants and let him get on with watching Cork teams lose on a regular basis. The Cork County Board have dug their own grave on this one -let them get on with it -
Turns out that Mulvey had a deal on the table - than Donal Og Cusack wanted to add another demand, that he get a place on the County Board Executive as the players representative. Unsurprisingly the deal fell apart
Apparently
Holland would have been a contender - might not have got it had Tony Leahy gone for it but would have a fair share of suppoty. He did win an AI minor in 2000 with an average enough outfit and has a fair share of experience at club level. Portraying him as some no hoper is just plain wrong.
In reality there was likely to be little enough interest in the job and no outstanding candidate. If Holland steps down now it is possible the CB will appoint someone even less to the players liking and by their own admission they cannot object. As the Chinese proverb says - be careful what you wish for as you may get it!!!
Quote from: stephenite on January 28, 2008, 11:08:26 PM
Turns out that Mulvey had a deal on the table - than Donal Og Cusack wanted to add another demand, that he get a place on the County Board Executive as the players representative. Unsurprisingly the deal fell apart
Apparently
Would expect nothing less from the narky wee p***k. He and his GPA cronies truly are the enemy within the GAA.
Donal Og has a real self of his own self importance which has obviously been imparted to the rest of the squad and now we've a strike.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 28, 2008, 10:58:05 PM
The players are entitled to a voice too
Who is denying them a "voice"? They have at least the same voice as the rest of the members. What they are looking for is special status - i.e. to be above the democratic process and to have a veto on democratic decisions. No other group within the organisation either has that or has the brass neck to ask for it and I cannot fathom how the players' supporters here (and their dwindling numbers in Cork) can neither see how unacceptable that is nor the obvious consequences of conceding it.
Quote
If I were the players at this stage - i'd simply withdraw from the panel
If they had any honour that is what they would have done in the first place, rather than presumptuously nominating themselves as the Cork Senior Football Team (when no such thing existed before it was selected) and calling their action a "strike".
Toms view on the saga.
Let sanity prevail and give players a voice
Tom Humphries
Locker Room: Aw. Let me get back to sleep. This is January isn't it? The most uncomplicated and serene of sporting months? Time was when January was a siesta for us pencil jockeys. We'd yawn and stretch and scratch ourselves and then turn back over knowing the sports editor would wake us when February came and the buds of a fresh season started shooting up.
This is January. Will ye all stop. Cease and desist. Step away from the vehicle. It's January.
Why is the blood pressure up coming out of Parnell Park on a Wednesday night? Why are we sweating over what might happen to Kieren Fallon? Why are our bowels made watery by the whole 100-year search for an Ireland manager. And, as they say in certain parts of this city, wither Eddie O'Sullivan?
And why are we are convulsed with worry about the footballers and hurlers of Cork?
There is a fashion in chat rooms and saloon bars not immediately connected with the Southern capital to throw the arms in the air and pronounce the people of Cork and all their deeds as one sorrowful mystery too many. Life is short after all.
Life teaches us though that what the querulous Corkonian gets worked up over today the rest of us will have to face tomorrow anyway. Sonia versus BLÉ. Roy versus the FAI. Eddie O'Sullivan versus the rest of us. Cork is always interesting and always worth watching.
Two strikes among amateur players in six years of Cork GAA? We can deduce either that the players are uppity and don't want to play or that relations between jerseys and suits in Cork are abysmal or non-existent.
Given the work players put in, the heroics, especially of the hurlers, over the last few years, but also of the footballers last summer in particular, it seems unfair to roll the eyes and dismiss the players' case out of hand.
First things first. Both sides in Cork went from zero to 60 miles an hour in no time at all at the start of the current squabble. A sign surely of a failed relationship with lots of issues festering. At this stage there is little point in trawling through the entrails and decoding what was said by whom back before Christmas.
In terms of a resolution, as things stand now with the Mulvey initiative apparently dead in the water, it is hard to locate a rational person who can either stand over the proposed system whereby the county board will choose a manager's backroom team or understand Teddy Holland's reasoning in sticking defiantly in the bainisteoir's bib he has been given. The building is falling asunder around Teddy.
The initial reaction of many of us, jaded as we are with the issue of players' rights, was to note that the county board had voted not once but twice for its bizarre preference in management structures and that players should just accept the rule of democracy. Of course, when we examined our consciences democracy had very little to do with it all and we were being inconsistent anyway.
Almost by way of reflex whenever the subject of pay for play comes up this column froths to whoever will listen that the players don't have to play if it is such a chore. We are in favour of grants, and all for players being carefully and tenderly looked after and respected. Yet when we hear lads talk of how they pat their pockets to see how little money they have when they are in the parade in front of 80,000 people in Croke Park we feel nauseous.
It's no secret the GAA is an amateur and voluntary organisation. Nobody pretended it was otherwise when you got involved. If it doesn't feel like an honour to be there, if all you care about is getting a cut of the gate, well go away and do something else.
Cork reminds us all that there is a flip side to that argument. The Cork players are being asked, for whatever perverse reasons, to operate under a retrograde system which offers them little or no chance of success. They are being told to give their best by a system which almost by definition precludes their getting the best results in return.
And so they are doing what we suggest. They are withdrawing. They are doing something else.
When we tell the players in Cork that the county board voted for the proposed system and that therefore they have a duty to knuckle down and work under it, we forget that for all our fanciful talk about professionalism the players are amateurs. They have no contracts they are obliged to see out.
We are dealing with an issue of how adults want to spend their free time. Graham Canty and Donal Óg Cusack and others want to spend their free time competing for All-Ireland titles and getting the maximum out of themselves. They are being hobbled in that regard. So they are saying, thanks but no thanks.
Aha, say the plain and fed-up people of Ireland, well let them go away so and be quiet about it. Isn't it open now to Teddy Holland or Gerald McCarthy to scour the bushes and hedgerows of Cork for players who are willing to put on a red jersey in such circumstances?
That is no solution. The GAA in Cork would be riven for a generation by the fallout from such a development. What self-respecting player would wear the county jersey under those conditions. What would he tell the children, the grandchildren? What other county would field against such a team? What genuine GAA person would pay to see such an outfit.
When we tell players they can walk away if they don't like what is on offer we are being high-handed and shortsighted. We look back on the Cork strike of 2002 and it's hard to see that the Cork players got anything from that episode which county players shouldn't have been getting all along.
We look back on the proposals which got thrown about at the weekend and it is difficult to see how the players could have been more flexible. Last week the players offered to shelve the entire issue if Teddy Holland stepped down and a return to a more sensible structure was backed by the county board executive in the autumn. Teddy's not for turning though.
So if the players swallowed hard as they say and offered to consider the notion of accepting Teddy for a year if some groundbreaking changes were made to the rather dysfunctional structures which exist in Cork, what would they want in exchange?
A players' representative to be added to the seven-man county executive and a former player and the team captain to make up one-third of the selection committee to pick a new manager whenever the occasion arises was what would be considered as the price.
There are two versions of what happened next. One, that smelling salts were needed to revive the many county board members who fainted when this idea was put to them. Two, that the offer was so notional and abstract as to be impossible to consider.
In the fog an opportunity was lost. Cork could have been a template. A players' representative on the county executive seems like the sort of progressive and forward-thinking development which Croke Park should be urging every county to adopt as part of the process of reassuring players. Throw in a club players' representative too while the changes are being made.
Cork's situation is tricky and emotive. Nobody is going to win all the chips on the table. A solution would stave off more showdowns and would recognise that in these instances there are no winners and losers. Everyone in the GAA is in it together.
Any notion of an "us" and a "them" is a malign growth which will devour us all
Pardon me for not reading back through 16 pages, this may have already been answered.
But I am presuming that there was no squad picked by the new manager yet, is that right?
If thats the case exactly which players have decided themselves to be the current squad?
There may well be some guys in their going to meetings saying we wont take this and we wont do that, who mightnt even be selected!
This whole situation is crazy, we are now at a position where, a) the players get their way, the manager steps down and a dangerous precedent is set. Or b) the players back down and agree to play, but seeds of mistrust are already deeply sown between the players and manager which will no doubt fester.
Players are their to play, its not for them to decide who makes up the management team. They are acting like prima donnas here.
How soon do they need to make an announcement re the league? I'm sure at this stage the Meath boys would like to know whats happening this weekend so they can prepare adequately.
absolutely- at this stage the players should step down and let the county board pick their panel and have a good time watching Cork lose to Clare and Limerick atfootball - they won't be too long comng back looking for them .
Quote from: INDIANA on January 29, 2008, 11:31:05 AM
absolutely- at this stage the players should step down and let the county board pick their panel and have a good time watching Cork lose to Clare and Limerick atfootball - they won't be too long comng back looking for them .
Indiana, its not all about success, I'd sooner see a team I respect lose while doing their best and keeping their dignity that a buch of prima donnas winning.
Well there's plenty of posters adding legs to the players demands, that's for sure. Let's be clear about this, the players are objecting to the CB's constant attempts to undermine their efforts to be successful while representing Cork. The attempt to get CB lacky's on the backroom staff of the senior football team was the last straw. The players do not want to ;
A. Pick the manager, they want the CB to do so.
B. Pick the selectors, they want the CB appointed manger to do so.
C. Prevent other players represent Cork in their stead, I haven't seen any picket lines around training pitches.
What the players do want is the environment in which they can compete against the other top counties in both codes.
It is the CB's responsibility to provide this while maintaining a decent club championship. A difficult balancing act in a dual county I'll grant you but possible nonetheless. The CB have behaved stupidly at best, cowardly and underhandedly at worst. Take off the anti-GPA/Donal Og glasses lads, this is about a CB that has lost sight of its role in the GAA, not the players.
No argument about the legendary stupidity, arrogance etc. of Cork GAA officialdom. However that's completely and absolutely beside the point. In no way does it justify what is effectively a players' coup.
About your A-B-C points, Zulu, I think you're splitting hairs. Perhaps the players don't want to pick the manager and selectors, but they are demanding (indeed implementing) something damn close to it – a veto over both the method of selection and the people selected. And why are they calling their action a "strike" if it's not to suggest to others that playing for Cork would be strike—breaking?
I would respect their integrity if they refused to make themselves available for selection because of their objection to the selection procedures and the personnel selected. But that's not what they're up to. Instead they're appointing themselves as an unelected pressure group (with no standing, since none of them have been selected yet to play for Cork) to demand that things be done their way.
Have you any comment on the question that both myself and His Holiness have raised about the standing of the people involved in this "strike"? By what process are they deemed the Cork Senior Football Team when no such team has been selected?
Quote from: Hardy on January 29, 2008, 12:13:14 PM
Have you any comment on the question that both myself and His Holiness have raised about the standing of the people involved in this "strike"? By what process are they deemed the Cork Senior Football Team when no such team has been selected?
Thats just ridiculous. If its not the team that is on strike, why doesnt Holland just go ahead and pick the team and play them v Meath!
Oh, its Meath of course ....... I see where you're coming from now... :D
Personally I think it was reasonable to request that the management selection process be done again, to allow those who didnt want their name to go forward when we were in the middle of the turmoil, to have a chance this time. And if Holland won again, then fair enough. The way Holland won in the first place was not fair, IMO, just opportunistic.
QuoteHave you any comment on the question that both myself and His Holiness have raised about the standing of the people involved in this "strike"? By what process are they deemed the Cork Senior Football Team when no such team has been selected?
Have they though Hardy? I suppose this comes down to interpretation (doesn't it always!) but my reading of this is, the 2007 panels are not making themselves available for selection this year because of the new selection system and Teddy Hollands actions. They have not said the management teams can't go along and select another panel, now Holland might try this but Gerald MacCarhty won't take a Cork panel devoid of those players into a championship. So I don't think they have done anything wrong, they are just not making themselves available under the prevailing circumstances, as they are entitled to and as I would if I was in their position. So I don't accept your position that they are a pressure group, but simply the first choice players of Cork GAA who won't play for the moment. If they are applying pressure it is because they want to play but only under the right circumstances. Hardy your a Meath man, lets say for some reason Meath CB appointed the village idiot from Navan as the county manager. How would the players respond, would they be at training every night, would they travel around the country representing Meath in the league and championship, or would tell the CB to take a hike if you think we're playing for that fool? We both know what they would do and why, because they fundamentally believe what the CB did prevented them from representing Meath to the best of their abilities. My example id obviously unrealistic but to follow your logic, once the county board make a decision the players should just get on with it. I don't accept that, the players are fighting for what's best for Cork GAA and as such ordinary supporters should support them, not castigate them.
Quote from: Hardy on January 29, 2008, 12:13:14 PM
No argument about the legendary stupidity, arrogance etc. of Cork GAA officialdom. However that's completely and absolutely beside the point. In no way does it justify what is effectively a players' coup.
About your A-B-C points, Zulu, I think you're splitting hairs. Perhaps the players don't want to pick the manager and selectors, but they are demanding (indeed implementing) something damn close to it – a veto over both the method of selection and the people selected. And why are they calling their action a "strike" if it's not to suggest to others that playing for Cork would be strike—breaking?
I would respect their integrity if they refused to make themselves available for selection because of their objection to the selection procedures and the personnel selected. But that's not what they're up to. Instead they're appointing themselves as an unelected pressure group (with no standing, since none of them have been selected yet to play for Cork) to demand that things be done their way.
Have you any comment on the question that both myself and His Holiness have raised about the standing of the people involved in this "strike"? By what process are they deemed the Cork Senior Football Team when no such team has been selected?
You seem to be missing the key point. If the method of selection isnt changed Cork senior sides cannot have a good manager. Quite simply as the board found to its cost nobody except the likes of Holland would take the job . The CCB have effectively put in place a rule which will severly hinder the senior intercounty sides chances of doing well. This, when you think about it, is a crazy situation.
Larry Tomkins is giving his respected view on this saga now on Joe Duffy.
Cork are a disgrace, they have brought more disgrace on the GAA in recent years with their refusals to do this and that, they have no respect whatever for anyone only themselves, and they haven't even got that now.
Tomkins should be the last one to comment on Manager/Selection procedure. Here is an extract from an article about his last day out:
"The latest to attempt a return to the field of dreams it was Larry Tomkins, the Cork manager, who selected himself for Sunday's Munster championship clash with Kerry, a Kerry team that looks set for another championship win, I might add.. It didn't work out for the 35 year-old, who was too old to start with, and too long out of football to make a contribution. There comes a time when footballers have to stop playing. That time arrived for Larry Tomkins a few years ago. It doesn't say a lot for the football conveyor belt in Cork if a manager can not find a centre forward in a county of its size. Larry also made things very difficult from himself in terms of deciding to make switches or substitutions. It is one thing to be able to view matters from the sideline, to trying to make judgments while you are in the thick of the play, is very difficult to do in any sport, well you might get away with it in cricket or darts- but not while playing 'real' games. "
Jesus wept!
Quote from: TBT on January 29, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
You seem to be missing the key point. If the method of selection isnt changed Cork senior sides cannot have a good manager. Quite simply as the board found to its cost nobody except the likes of Holland would take the job . The CCB have effectively put in place a rule which will severly hinder the senior intercounty sides chances of doing well. This, when you think about it, is a crazy situation.
And its the players mandate to change that?
Zulu, Hound, TBT - to try a quick response. As Zulu says, it's a question of interpretation. It looks to me to be different to a simple refusal to make themselves available. They are calling it a strike (or at least allowing it to be called a strike). That's a completely different animal to a statement saying I/we disagree with the way things are being done, so I'm/we're not going to take part. I presume that's the reason why Holland doesn't (or the CB executive haven't instructed him to) pick a team. They are under a strike threat and don't want to escalate the thing. In other words, the players are subverting the democratic process.
Zulu - to answer your hypothetical Meath question - I would expect the players individually, or even collectively if that's what they wished, to state their case and take the appropriate action - i.e. bow out, if they felt they couldn't operate under the democratically selected regime. I would also be out front here denouncing the stupidity of the county board for selecting the wrong man. I would be proposing motions to have the decision reversed. I would be shouting and roaring. That's how it's supposed to be done democratically. I wouldn't be advocating Meath's withdrawal from the league and championship.
I agree completely that the proposed selection procedure is the wrong way to do things and does nothing for Cork's chances of success. I agree that the democratic process is less than perfect generally and much less in this case. I agree that the whole thing is riven with power politics, club v. county politics etc., etc. Nevertheless, flawed, or even woefully inadequate as it is, the process was followed and the processs is all that we have between us and anarchy. I have had no answer to my question about the consequences for the GAA as a whole if the players are allowed to get away with flouting the rules in this case. What then is to stop any ad-hoc pressure group from deciding it will sabotage the organisation, disrupt competitions, whatever, unless it gets its way?
You seem to be missing the key point. If the method of selection isnt changed Cork senior sides cannot have a good manager
in a nutshell that's it - the players know this- and know there is zero chance of winning in this scenario -so they should simply make themselves unavailable and allow Holland to pick who he wants and like i said after a year being beaten by clare and co there won't be any problem reversing the motion at next year's Convention.
Just heard reference on the Joe Duffy Show to the row with the players last year over their energy drinks. The Co. Board had negotiated sponsorship with CocaCola but the players wanted to use one produced by a company sponsoring the GAA. This is a perfect example of what can happen if no one is in charge or responsible. It was the Co. Boards resposability o finance the team and they did this with the aid of sponsorship from CocaCola. What gave the players the right to sabotage this by flashing other drinks when playing for the county. Its behaviour like this that makes Co. Boards realise that they need more control over how teams behave or is it OK for the players to 'dis' their county sponsors when representing the county.
I don't think many people would argue that a manager picking his own selectors is preferrable, to be honest. The main problem I have is that it seems, to an outsider at least, that the Cork County Board followed procedures twice, had votes and passed a motion democratically.
If that is the case, and the majority of clubs supported the motion, then no matter how crazy it seems to us, that is what Cork, the county, have decided to do.
Are inter county players now to have some sort of presidential veto on all rule changes?
There's obviously a major problem down in Cork between the county board and players, but in this case, if the procedures are followed, then the players should simply walk away if they can't work in that environment. None of this 'strike' talk.
Quote from: Hardy on January 29, 2008, 02:31:58 PM
Zulu, Hound, TBT - to try a quick response. As Zulu says, it's a question of interpretation. It looks to me to be different to a simple refusal to make themselves available. They are calling it a strike (or at least allowing it to be called a strike). That's a completely different animal to a statement saying I/we disagree with the way things are being done, so I'm/we're not going to take part. I presume that's the reason why Holland doesn't (or the CB executive haven't instructed him to) pick a team. They are under a strike threat and don't want to escalate the thing. In other words, the players are subverting the democratic process.
Zulu - to answer your hypothetical Meath question - I would expect the players individually, or even collectively if that's what they wished, to state their case and take the appropriate action - i.e. bow out, if they felt they couldn't operate under the democratically selected regime. I would also be out front here denouncing the stupidity of the county board for selecting the wrong man. I would be proposing motions to have the decision reversed. I would be shouting and roaring. That's how it's supposed to be done democratically. I wouldn't be advocating Meath's withdrawal from the league and championship.
I agree completely that the proposed selection procedure is the wrong way to do things and does nothing for Cork's chances of success. I agree that the democratic process is less than perfect generally and much less in this case. I agree that the whole thing is riven with power politics, club v. county politics etc., etc. Nevertheless, flawed, or even woefully inadequate as it is, the process was followed and the processs is all that we have between us and anarchy. I have had no answer to my question about the consequences for the GAA as a whole if the players are allowed to get away with flouting the rules in this case. What then is to stop any ad-hoc pressure group from deciding it will sabotage the organisation, disrupt competitions, whatever, unless it gets its way?
Hardy, I believe you are not recognising the seriousness of the implications if the changes are not reversed. Cork senior intercounty sides cannot have good managment sides. They will no longer be able to reach their potential as teams because of this. It destroys Cork's chances of sucess at senior not merely hamper them. How can destroying the chances of sucess of your senior sides be acceptable because a process was followed? . This decision is simply 100% wrong. This decision was not take imo in the best interests of Cork GAA but had other deeper underlining motives behinde it.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 29, 2008, 02:47:39 PM
I don't think many people would argue that a manager picking his own selectors is preferrable, to be honest. The main problem I have is that it seems, to an outsider at least, that the Cork County Board followed procedures twice, had votes and passed a motion democratically.
If that is the case, and the majority of clubs supported the motion, then no matter how crazy it seems to us, that is what Cork, the county, have decided to do.
Are inter county players now to have some sort of presidential veto on all rule changes?
There's obviously a major problem down in Cork between the county board and players, but in this case, if the procedures are followed, then the players should simply walk away if they can't work in that environment. None of this 'strike' talk.
As I have already outlined, how can delibrately destroying the chances of sucess of your senior intercounty sides ever be regarded by any fairminded person as acceptable?I'm detecting here in Cork that public support is begining to slowly sway the players way as the count down begins to the start of the season. But we'll wait and see.
Quote from: zoyler on January 29, 2008, 02:47:18 PM
Just heard reference on the Joe Duffy Show to the row with the players last year over their energy drinks. The Co. Board had negotiated sponsorship with CocaCola but the players wanted to use one produced by a company sponsoring the GAA. This is a perfect example of what can happen if no one is in charge or responsible. It was the Co. Boards resposability o finance the team and they did this with the aid of sponsorship from CocaCola. What gave the players the right to sabotage this by flashing other drinks when playing for the county. Its behaviour like this that makes Co. Boards realise that they need more control over how teams behave or is it OK for the players to 'dis' their county sponsors when representing the county.
Did the Joe Duffy show also mention that the other offer was bigger and that was an Irish based company? Did the CCB say why they refused a better offer?
I wouldn't argue the point that it seems to be madness to impose selectors on a manager. BUT is the suggestion that the Cork County Board is simply corrupt from top to bottom? If the votes were taken, twice, and the vote was in favour of this rule, then how can it be challenged? Democracy fails sometimes, but it's still the best we have.
If the players are so against it, let them walk away. As Indiana says, let Clare and Limerick beat them, let the hurlers get relegated to the Christy Ring Cup. Then let the players resurrect the motion next year, and see if they get more support in a vote.
My opinion is that this is a symptom of the disease in the relationship down there, not the root cause. I think the players are trying to 'break' the county board power down there. If they are, then they should let us know the reason why. Sean Og probably referred to it in his interview, when he spoke of Frank Murphy, sandwiches after training and cold showers. But if that is the case, then let them be open and honest about it.
TBT - so should we change the rules of the GAA so that any group (even if their judgment is correct) can refuse to accept the democratic will of the organisation? Which is the more serious outcome - Cork fail to win the All-Ireland or the GAA scraps its democratic process?
There is only one way recognised in the GAA to reverse decisions with which you disagree. The Cork players tried it. They found that their view wasn't shared by the majority, so they opted for bullying. Even if their cause is just and their assessment correct, they cannot be allowed to dictate to the majority.
Quote from: Hardy on January 29, 2008, 03:44:47 PM
TBT - so should we change the rules of the GAA so that any group (even if their judgment is correct) can refuse to accept the democratic will of the organisation? Which is the more serious outcome - Cork fail to win the All-Ireland or the GAA scraps its democratic process?
There is only one way recognised in the GAA to reverse decisions with which you disagree. The Cork players tried it. They found that their view wasn't shared by the majority, so they opted for bullying. Even if their cause is just and their assessment correct, they cannot be allowed to dictate to the majority.
I agree Hardy. If the County Board are not corrupt, scheming manipulators, but simply wrong in this instance, then that's one of the problems with democracy. Sometimes most people want the wrong thing. (Many would point to Fianna Fail at this point :D) However, the alternative is a dictatorship, or a monarchy. Maybe King Donal of Cloyne has a ring (no pun intended) to it.
The rebel players should do the honourable thing and respect the democratic structures within their county. I genuinely belive that their disgraceful showing in the Aireland final against Kerry last year showed that they have little right to represent Cork anyaway. As Niall Cathalane said its a privelage not a right to represent Cork. These guys had the chance and they made total and utter fools of themselves and their county last year on AIF day. What a freakin joke. Are they in any positon to decide whats best for Cork football after showing the white feather last September. If I was a Cork fan I would be crying out for a new panel of players to replace them anyway. As a Cork fan I would be totally embarassed with this bundle of upstards and I for one would be unhappy if they were representing my county.
That's just ridiculous rrhf. Nobody goes out to play badly in an All Ireland Final, or any game. They tried, and had a brutal day. September should have no bearing on the rights and wrongs of January in Cork.
I think the general sentiment is that the players have every right to refuse to play if they are not happy with something, but there should be no such thing as a "strike" which might force all players not to play. Let Cork play away with those players who are happy (or not unhappy to be more correct) with the mgt selection process.
For anyone outside Cork that would seem to be the right and fair way. And as Indiana says, maybe the CCB will come back begging when Cork are getting beat out the gate by Clare etc. However, in my view the players really want to play for Cork and to be as successful as they can - not many want to throw away one year of their short career to make a point. They're doing all they can to get a set up they think will be far more likely to bring success. They're doing what they're doing only because they care. It'll come to an end soon when they think they've come as far as they can.
That may well be the case Hound, but I think it's more deep rooted than that. Why would Sean Og be talking about Frank Murphy resigning, the County Board being 'up there' while the players are 'down here', sandwiches after training and cold showers?
I think the players smell blood and are trying to get some of the more entrenched members of the County Board out on the back of this smokescreen.
Funnily enough, if they did have grievances along the lines of Sean Og's statement at the weekend, they'd probably have more support than this apparent attempt to short circuit the democratic (albeit possibly flawed) process within the GAA.
Aye but surely if they cared so much about the quality of Cork Football they would have went on holidays last September instead of making idiots out of their county at the biggest stage of all.. Elite if theree not 30 better footballers in Leitrim never mind Cork than those guys Ill eat Colm O Rourkes thatched hat!! Plus Is this a football team issue. WTF is Donal Og doing there.
It's not a football issue alone. The hurlers are 'out' as well in sympathy. Partly because the footballers backed their strike in 2002, but moreso because the same conditions would apply next year when the Cork Hurling manager position is renewed.
If the incoming hurling manager chased Donal Og or the small rump with a stick (which we'd love to see happening) will there be another strike next year. Seriously there will be strike after strike if this is allowed to continue. I believe Croke Park should insist that the Cork County Board field a team this Sunday - iF they can then they are out of the league and championship for the year.
Dan Shanahan was on TV on Saturday and said that Cork footballers and hurlers do very very well out of the GAA and are very well looked after - so they should catch themselves on and get on with it and stop making idiots out of themselves - the whole thing is now an embarassment.
Dan is probably thick because Brian Corcoran took a pop at Waterford in his book.
Crocoran did have a go at Waterford alright in his book and a year later, guess what ? Waterford beat Cork twice in the championship - He'd have been better off keeping his mouth shut wouldn't he ?
Waterford still didn't win the All Ireland, which was Corcoran's main point. Equally Dan should be keeping his mouth shut about this.
Dan was asked what he thought about the situation - the point he was making was that Cork hurlers / footballers are very well looked after already - what more do they want ??
Dan should have had the cop on to say something like 'That's really a matter for the Cork lads, and the county board. I hope they get it sorted out quickly'.
Look, I'm not in favour of the Cork players' actions here, at least from my knowledge of what has happened up to now. But I think slagging the players off for other things, or getting in digs about how well they are looked after is not the way to debate the point. And a player on a rival county would be better advised not commenting at all.
But everyone is having their say including the president. We're all entitled to an opinion - personally I'm glad that Dan was able to let the country know how spoiled the Crok players are already. Somebody was on here saying earlier that all they get after training is sandwiches !!!!!! ;) :D ;D ;)
The president is not going to end up getting a butt of a hurley in his hip next June.
Sean Óg said they get/got sandwiches after training. That's why I think there's bigger things in the background here than the county board picking selectors. The players should lay their cards on the table.
Incidentally, has anyone booked Cork hotels for away league games yet?
And what do the players THINK they should be getting after training ? What do they want ?
Personally I think the stance of the Cork players is very militant and revolutionary and I believe that it outside of their remit. Going on strike is no way to resolve anything.
Part of the whole welfare thing from 2002, and adopted by most counties at this stage in fairness, is a hot meal after training. Usually pasta and chicken, or some steak, depending on the diet they are supposed to be following.
That's standard at this stage, and I'd be surprised if Cork are being denied it.
In some counties (sensibly) players have opted to forego the dinner after training in favour of fruit/sandwiches as its not the best to be eating a big meal at 9pm in the evening.
His comments in his article were a total disgrace. He has gone down a lot in my estimation.
I actually cannot believe that this is happening. Really - they need to cop themselves on.
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 29, 2008, 05:49:00 PM
In some counties (sensibly) players have opted to forego the dinner after training in favour of fruit/sandwiches as its not the best to be eating a big meal at 9pm in the evening.
His comments in his article were a total disgrace. He has gone down a lot in my estimation.
I actually cannot believe that this is happening. Really - they need to cop themselves on.
Aye Seanie, that's true, but it's a decision they made. They are supposed to be offered the meal, especially if they've been working until 6.30 or something, and travelled to training. They need to follow these diets as well. I too find it hard to believe that they are being denied the choice in Cork.
Hold on AZ - is this about a hot meal or the manager issue ???
This really is unbelievable.
That's my question exactly. Read my posts. I think there is something more going on, and this is the battle they have chosen. Sean Og sort of let it be known that he was unhappy with a few things. He mentioned Frank Murphy, sandwiches and cold showers.
But why pretend it is something else then ??
Quote from: orangeman on January 29, 2008, 06:43:33 PM
But why pretend it is something else then ??
Maybe if its about hot showers and a feed they might get less sympathy as they could buy a sandwhich and use a bit of hot water at home on their grant money?
They don't have any sympathy -
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 29, 2008, 05:07:53 PMDan should have had the cop on to say something like 'That's really a matter for the Cork lads, and the county board. I hope they get it sorted out quickly'.
Probably but there's enough of that double speak going on, at least Dan The Man tells it like he sees it.
Quote from: his holiness nb on January 29, 2008, 05:35:54 PM
Incidentally, has anyone booked Cork hotels for away league games yet?
I'm down in Cork by chance de weekend of de Westmeath game so I wish to feck they'd sort it or else for the county board to clarify if they're gonna field new lads/youngsters, want to get one of them NFL passes...
There is only one way recognised in the GAA to reverse decisions with which you disagree. The Cork players tried it. They found that their view wasn't shared by the majority, so they opted for bullying. Even if their cause is just and their assessment correct, they cannot be allowed to dictate to the majority.
That's fine Hardy but the County Board have to accept that if they get hammered out the gate in the summer which they will -they have to accept the consequences or backlash that comes with it. I think the players should call the county board's bluff - withdraw- let them field second strings- get hockeyed and i guarantee you'll never see that motion ever again. As for taking a year off their careers - they have zero chance of winning anything under this arrangement so it's a wasted year anyway.
Is that what the players want Indiana ? Do they want to see Cork getting hammered out the gate ??
I reckon that the Cork supporters would rather see players putting on the red and white jersey and wearing it with pride rather than 25 boys sitting in the stands spitting their dummies out !!!!
Quote from: orangeman on January 29, 2008, 06:43:33 PM
But why pretend it is something else then ??
My question exactly. My opinion is that they are trying to oust some of the main principle characters of the county board, including Murphy, and this issue gives them the means and the motive. I think they are hoping to defeat the county board, and force some of them to resign in protest.
Of course I may be talking sh1te :D
If they're trying to oust Murphy, who was it they ran begging to last year after Semplegate - they were quare and glad of him then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A lot of these boys must have very short memories ! ;) ;) ;) :( :( :( ??? ??? ??? ???
Quote from: orangeman on January 29, 2008, 04:42:54 PM
Dan Shanahan was on TV on Saturday and said that Cork footballers and hurlers do very very well out of the GAA and are very well looked after - so they should catch themselves on and get on with it and stop making idiots out of themselves - the whole thing is now an embarassment.
Good man Dan. I hope Waterford sow it into Cork this year (if they can even bother fielding a team).
Hopefully we'll see a few good contests this year with Cork and Waterford - Big Dan might get reminded of a few things - but I'm sure he'll be able to loo after himself ! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
I have no argument with that, Indiana.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 29, 2008, 06:56:23 PM
That's fine Hardy but the County Board have to accept that if they get hammered out the gate in the summer which they will -they have to accept the consequences or backlash that comes with it. I think the players should call the county board's bluff - withdraw- let them field second strings- get hockeyed and i guarantee you'll never see that motion ever again. As for taking a year off their careers - they have zero chance of winning anything under this arrangement so it's a wasted year anyway.
Have you ever considered what playing for your county is like in 80% of County teams INDIANA? Our games wouldn't exist if everyone was motivated in this way.
But Cork players are "different" !!!!!! ;) ;) ;)
Have the players ever considered that their strike action will have compromised and prejudiced the number of people who would be prepared to take the managers job after Hollnad is forced to resign ??
They keep saying they want to win AIs - but surely the right candidated now won't touch the job ???????
Dan should have had the cop on to say something like 'That's really a matter for the Cork lads, and the county board. I hope they get it sorted out quickly'.
Look, I'm not in favour of the Cork players' actions here, at least from my knowledge of what has happened up to now. But I think slagging the players off for other things, or getting in digs about how well they are looked after is not the way to debate the point. And a player on a rival county would be better advised not commenting at all.
Sorry AZ - this sounds like GPA policy too much for my liking. I suppose the CCB are a rump of malcontents also!!!
For some reason, I am getting confused as somehow supporting the Cork Players, so I will reiterate.
1. I do not agree with the Cork players going on strike, based on all I have read about the process. This strike ON THESE GROUNDS is basically a refusal to accept democracy, as far as I can see.
2. I do not believe that this strike is solely about this decision. I believe there are far more deep rooted power struggles going on in terms of who holds the whip hand in Cork GAA circles.
3. If this is the case, I believe the players should be honest, as Sean Óg sort of did, and lay all their complaints on the table.
4. I find it hard to believe that the Cork County Board would allow player welfare to suffer since the strike of 2002, especially in today's GPA age. I think if that were the case the GPA would be all over this and so..
5. I think the real problem is that the Cork players don't like Frank Murphy and some other county board officers, and are trying to get rid of them. I think they are using this selectors issue as the battlefield of choice. I think Sean Og's comments betray this lack of relationship, and that is the real problem.
finally. I do not agree with either party if my scenario is correct, because I don't know the issues. If I am wrong, and it is all about, and only about, the selectors issue, then I am completely against the players.
The players haven't a hope if their agenda is to get rid of Frank Murphy. He got a unanimous vote of confidence from the county board delegates last night.
I'm sorry Sean og but Frank won't be going anywhere soon ( not according to the Co. Board last night anyway ) ;)
should just take the year off and enjoy themselves - frank's position may not be as stable after a couple of hidings in the Munster championship - the players need to be cuter about this.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 30, 2008, 11:34:02 AM
should just take the year off and enjoy themselves - frank's position may not be as stable after a couple of hidings in the Munster championship - the players need to be cuter about this.
Indiana, why do you think the players would be "cuter" to take a year off to damage Franks position. The county board delegates gave him a unanimous vote of confidence LAST NIGHT.
What part of democracy do you and the Cork players not understand?
Frank Murphy and his level of power is the essential problem in this whole argument, it boils down entirely to him, anything else the players say is just
skirting around the issue and taking a swipe at him without mentioning him directly. His level of power, I feel, is excessive, what he says goes in Cork and he is surrounded by a bunch of yes men who have got to where they are by being yes men to him. Cork County Board borders on a dictatorship in my view. Ye may dismiss that as far fetched and ridiculous , but anyone who knows the inner machinations of the Cork County Board will know what I am talking about. Come out from behind the Iron Curtain Cork!
We have all heard down the years about Frank Murphy and his exploits and there is no doubt he pulled off a great number of fast ones to the benefit of his own county but by God its his best yet if he is able to sway 100 Corkmen representing 100 different clubs with different agendas to his every whim and wish. Are we to believe that there is no one on the County Board with a mind of there own of able to think for themselves.
There is, of course, always the possibility that a majority of them are like minded, can see the wood for the trees, and have reached a common view of what is best for the GAA and the majority of players at all levels in the county for which they are democraticly accountable
Reminds me of Sadaam getting 100% in his last election win!
Quote from: Hound on January 30, 2008, 12:55:57 PM
Reminds me of Sadaam getting 100% in his last election win!
Are you suggesting the 100 clubs all agreed with him through fear?
Or the results were fixed?
FFS Hound, keep it realistic.
Holiness it would be interesting to see how well Frank would be received if Cork were hockeyed in the first round of the championships this year. The sponsor also isn't going to be too happy having the likes of Sean Og not promoting them etc- they really need to be smarter on this - withdraw for a year -let them be annialiated and i guarantee you 100% holiness that motion will never be seen at the Cork County Convention ever again because Cork people hate losing and a couple of hidings will put this ridiculous setup to bed once and for all.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 30, 2008, 01:36:52 PM
Holiness it would be interesting to see how well Frank would be received if Cork were hockeyed in the first round of the championships this year. The sponsor also isn't going to be too happy having the likes of Sean Og not promoting them etc- they really need to be smarter on this - withdraw for a year -let them be annialiated and i guarantee you 100% holiness that motion will never be seen at the Cork County Convention ever again because Cork people hate losing and a couple of hidings will put this ridiculous setup to bed once and for all.
So basically, bully them into changing democratically chosen rules.
Might is right and all that.
I wish some of ye would read back what you're writing. Wishing for Cork to be a few hammerings so that they can overturn a decision which ye believe stops them being successful.....????
Or maybe I'm reading things wrongly.
Glad to see the county board come out strongly in defence of their secretary. Let the players stand up and say what the real issues are for once. They want the power but no responsibility. They want money but want to stay amateur as well.
I think people are forgetting that the Cork players are amateurs here and they are only looking to give themselves the best chance of winning an All-Ireland.
The Cork players have earned the right to have some limited input into the selection of the new manager.
Its all right for people here to be saying it's an honour to wear the county jersey and that they should get on with it.
But it's the county players that have to go off the drink for most of the season and put up with been criticised on national TV if they don't play well.
Saying all of that I feel that some of the senior cork players are just throwing there weight around as well.
But we don't know the full story of what goes on behind the scenes so god only knows what is the truth at this stage.
Quote from: his holiness nb on January 30, 2008, 12:59:38 PM
Quote from: Hound on January 30, 2008, 12:55:57 PM
Reminds me of Sadaam getting 100% in his last election win!
Are you suggesting the 100 clubs all agreed with him through fear?
Or the results were fixed?
FFS Hound, keep it realistic.
Like in Iraq, the result would have been a lot different had it been a secret ballot!
Frank's goina get you!!!
So basically, bully them into changing democratically chosen rules.
Might is right and all that.
not really just one way of getting a Silly rule overturned- the delegates don't have to train under this arrangement and the cork players are entitled to walk away because they don't have have to play under such an arrangment. They won't have to put any motion forward next year because half the delegates in Cork will only be too glad to do it . So instead of striking -just walk away on masse and it won't be an issue again. There is no point in them wasting their time training under such an arrangement so they shouldn't strike- just walk away.
Have the Cork County Board asked for Saturday's match in Navan to be postponed?
If they have it's the cowards way out IMO. They should be fielding at any cost - a junior team or even the county board themselves should pull on the county shirts and make sure they fullfill their fixtures.
Regardless of what is going on the GAA cannot agree to this.........
Taken from BBC
Cork have asked for their NFL Division 2 match against Meath, which is scheduled to take place in Navan this Saturday night, to be postponed.
The Central Competitions Committee of the GAA will meet in Croke Park on Wednesday when a decision will be made whether to accede to the request.
The Cork row centres on a decision to change the way selectors are appointed.
GAA officials are keen to find a resolution to the ongoing dispute so the request is likely to be granted.
Meanwhile over 100 delegates to a meeting of the Cork County Board on Tuesday night expressed their resounding support for new Rebels Senior Football manager Teddy Holland.
The search for a resolution between the senior hurlers and footballers and the County Board in the impasse over the row of Holland's appointment and his selectors continues to grow.
Representatives from clubs right across the Rebel County gave their unanimous backing to Holland and passed a motion of confidence in the retired Garda detective who hails from Ballinascarthy.
The footballers had been placing the resignation of Holland as a condition for their return to action but it appears Holland or the County Board are firmly not going to back down on this issue.
Meanwhile there was also full support in a motion of confidence which was placed in County Board secretary Frank Murphy.
The Cork County Board delegates also expressed their satisfaction at last night's meeting with the way its Executive handled the issue and it was decided to return to round-table talks with the players, brokered by LRC chief Kieran Mulvery as faciliator.
Last weekend the talks collapsed after 18 hours of negotiations but Cork officials are keen to see a resolution to the impasse and are eager to return to talks.
Quote from: full back on January 30, 2008, 02:17:24 PM
Regardless of what is going on the GAA cannot agree to this.........
Taken from BBC
Cork have asked for their NFL Division 2 match against Meath, which is scheduled to take place in Navan this Saturday night, to be postponed.
The Central Competitions Committee of the GAA will meet in Croke Park on Wednesday when a decision will be made whether to accede to the request.
That's different from what I had read previously.
I understood the GAA went to Cork and said that if they request a postponment, they would be facilitated without penalty.
Quote from: Hound on January 30, 2008, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: full back on January 30, 2008, 02:17:24 PM
Regardless of what is going on the GAA cannot agree to this.........
Taken from BBC
Cork have asked for their NFL Division 2 match against Meath, which is scheduled to take place in Navan this Saturday night, to be postponed.
The Central Competitions Committee of the GAA will meet in Croke Park on Wednesday when a decision will be made whether to accede to the request.
That's different from what I had read previously.
I understood the GAA went to Cork and said that if they request a postponment, they would be facilitated without penalty.
I'd say you're right Hound. Nicky Brennan more or less intimated that the GAA would be taking a 'softly-softly' approach here.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 30, 2008, 01:58:52 PM
just one way of getting a Silly rule overturned- the delegates don't have to train under this arrangement and the cork players are entitled to walk away because they don't have have to play under such an arrangment. They won't have to put any motion forward next year because half the delegates in Cork will only be too glad to do it . So instead of striking -just walk away on masse and it won't be an issue again. There is no point in them wasting their time training under such an arrangement so they shouldn't strike- just walk away.
So the country board decide on this arrangement, approved by all delegates, therefore all clubs, clubs which these players are part of, and the players are justified in refusing to accept it?
I'm sorry but thats a ridiculous argument.
The players should be named ASAP so the management can pick their alternative squad. And the players who refuse to play under this arrangement should be banned from playing for Cork for a set period of time, for bringing shame on Cork GAA and refusing to accept democracy.
Its like a fecking military coup!
Quote from: his holiness nb on January 30, 2008, 02:34:29 PM
And the players who refuse to play should be banned from playing for Cork for refusing to accept democracy.
Thats beautiful ;D
Quote from: Hound on January 30, 2008, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on January 30, 2008, 02:34:29 PM
And the players who refuse to play should be banned from playing for Cork for refusing to accept democracy.
Thats beautiful ;D
:-X
Oops, to clarify!!
I mean banned when A) the setup is changed or B) they decide at some stage they want to come back.
What a f**king joke.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/7217301.stm
Cork-Meath fixture is postponed
The Central Competitions Committee of the GAA has acceded to a request by Cork to call off this Saturday night's NFL opener against Meath at Navan.
A statement added that any decision on whether the game will be played in the future is deferred until a later date.
Cork players and the county board are at loggerheads over a decision to change the way senior football and hurling selectors are appointed.
As long as the other fixtures arent messed around i can live with it. hopefully moved to a vacant spot on the calender. But if they cant meet the deferred fixture then f**k em'
Meath sholud have been awarded the points.
Quote from: orangeman on January 30, 2008, 06:48:10 PM
Meath sholud have been awarded the points.
I can't understand why Meath are not awarded the points if Cork fail to field ... (what does the Official Guide say on that ???). I think the footballers are in the wrong, the hurlers should not be involved but I also think that Frank Murphy has in the past and still wield too much power both at County and National levels. What about letting the DRA make a rulling on this issue.
The players should realise that after last night, Frank Murhpy has the support of the clubs - players will come and go but Frank will still be there. Frank doesn't pick the team nor train the team - so the players should cop themselves on and get back out next Sunday and go back to what they're good at ! ( Playing and not striking :D :D )
If you really believe that last statement orangeman abut Frank Murphy there really is no hope for you. His influence in Cork is quite incredible.
Frank Murphy can bend spoons using his mind. He did it while Donal óg was stirring his tea after training and that is why the players are on strike.
Indiana - are you of the mistaken belief that the clubs are opposed to Cork ? Did the clubs not back Frank 100% the other night ?
Or maybe they were forced to vote for Frank ?? :D :D :D ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D
no formal vote was taken the other night orangeman -maybe you weren't aware of that?
Quote from: INDIANA on January 31, 2008, 05:53:03 PM
no formal vote was taken the other night orangeman -maybe you weren't aware of that?
No formal vote? What do you mean it was a show of hands?
If so, so what? Were they only voting for him for fear of being dragged out and bate if they didnt?
The clubs support him, stop with the conspiracy theories and give the GAA people of Cork a little credit ::)
No FORMAL vote ???????
What a load of shite Indiana !!! And you know it !!
The clubs back Murphy 100 % - no question about it - I know you won't admit to it but the players are now isolated and have no where to go - They should simply go back, play the games and appoint mediators to talk to the two parties at a more convenient time and place.
I don't buy your conspiracy theories - nor do the clubs in Cork !!! ;) ;) ;)
prime time on rte 1 after the news will have a bit on this..
Quote from: magickingdom on January 31, 2008, 09:03:07 PM
prime time on rte 1 after the news will have a bit on this..
Pretty useless programme especially the interviews with Donal Og and Sean Moran. Would have helped if the person interviewing knew something about the subject but Miriam had not a clue.
Disgraceful decision to defer Corks game against Meath. Meath should be awarded points and Cork fined heavily for failure to field. We must never allow a situation to develop where the tail wags the Dog. I am sure there are fifteen other lads in Cork willing to wear the jersey with pride. These self styled elite come and go, but the grassroots will continue to grow and prosper without them.
Couldn't agree with you more !
Who would pay the fine?
What fine ?
I agree that the decision to "defer" the game as opposed to "postponing" it is wrong. Sadly it's typical of the extraordinary spinning being done on lots of issues by Croke Park these days.
I actually think the rule to penalise a player for not turning out for his county team is wrong and should be got rid of. If the players are amateurs they should be free to walk away at any time if they want, without penalty. Playing Gaelic games is supposed to be about choice.
However, there is one big difference between a player walking away in ordinary circumstances and what is going on in Cork. The Cork players have adopted the disgraceful stance of saying they're not playing but all the time they're actively pulling every trick they can to stop new players coming in and playing in their place. They have said so often that no player would want to play for Cork in those circumstances that it has become a mantra. That is impossible to accept. In any other county new players would come forward, regardless of strike. The Cork players have been lobbying and pressurising those in their clubs to make sure no-one breaks their lines, or if they do they will be vilified like blacklegs, just like Frank Murphy or any of the county board, or in fact anyone who disagrees with the GPA's agenda. Hence the word was put out that the Newtownshandrum team was behind the strike.
Remember how most of the Derry county footballers wouldn't play under Mickey Moran a few years ago? They made their point, but they didn't come out slandering anyone who disagreed with them or played in their place.
But the Cork players/GPA leaders want to have their cake, eat it, get paid an appearance fee for turning up to eat it, charge for endorsing it, claim for infringement of image rights from anyone who happened to picture them eating it, get paid a grant to train to burn off the fat gained by eating it, and fire the chef who made the cake. Washed down by Club Energise (c).
Spot on, quidnunc. It's an honourable stance to refuse to play under a system in which you don't believe. It's a completely different and sinister development to call a "strike" of amateur players and treat the whole thing like an industrial dispute, complete with mediation by the CEO of the Labour Relations Commission.
Definitely a joke - the Cork players should be cut loose and left to stew. How dare they ! Forget about them -
Great post Quidnunc. Just who do the Cork players think they are and what makes them so special compared to all other GAA members. A line has to be drawn some where and these players reminded that there is more to the GAA then themselves.
It's time the GAA public started to let these boys know their actions are out of order - whatever about the county board's failings, a strike organised by players is way out of order.
Quote from: orangeman on February 01, 2008, 12:11:02 AM
What fine ?
Quote from: Pangurban on January 31, 2008, 10:16:20 PM
Disgraceful decision to defer Corks game against Meath. Meath should be awarded points and Cork fined heavily for failure to field.
Is reading that difficult a task in this day and age?
Thanks Uladh - the eyes are starting to fail ! :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D
Player situation in Cork worsens
Friday, 1 February 2008 19:49
Relations between the Cork County Board and the senior football and hurling players of the county appear to have deteriorated further tonight.
Labour Relations Chief Executive Kieran Mulvey has planned to travel to the county this weekend to broker talks but will not be doing so now.
Meanwhile the GAA have issued a Tuesday deadline for the situation to be resolved after they postponed the National Football League clash between Cork and Meath, originally due to take place tomorrow
The players are getting more militant - Donal Og was on Primetime last night - did you ever hear the like of it ?
We need to stand firm. It is a privilege to be selected for your county. If you don't want to play - walk away. The County Board need to stand up to these bully boy tactics from the Cork squad. It's a big county and they will be competitive without this shower.
Whose we Guillem2?
Cut them loose -
Simple fact is, in the current situation, Holland is f#cked. The players dont want him, wont respect him, he hasn't a chance. Aside from that, if Murphy and his cohorts are really prepared to face this down, they select a panel and field a team from the next in line. They stop looking for postponements and extensions and field a f#cking team!!
There mightn't be much won in league terms, but in comparison to what will be lost if they capitulate, its miniscule.
What do they lose if they 'capitulate' to the players?
What do the players by going back to play ?
Sorry OM don't understand the question.
It looks as if most neutrals are b;laming the players for this. I am not so sure.
It was the Cork county board that changed the rules regarding the appointment of selectors.This was probably done to get rid of Billy Morgan and keep Frank Murphy's "hand in" in the dressing room. Can anyone else give a reason as to why this was done.
The Cork players made it clear that they would not work under a new management so why the hell did Teddy Holland take on the job???? He saw possibly Corks's best ever manager being cast aside after a succesful year last year and took the job knowing that the squad were very unhappy. Out of order imo.
The Cork players do not have all right on their siude and they should be careful not to encourage others to join a strike but in my opinion, on an individual basis, they are right not to play for Teddy. The arrogance of Teddy Holland beats me. Everyone knows that he needs to voluntarily step down to sort this thing out. Even if he was 100% right (which he is not) if he had any real love for Cork football he would have stepped down much earlier to facilitate an end to this.
I dont know a whole lot about Frank Murphy but the setup down there smacks of a bit of a dictatorship. Can anybody name the Cork Co. Chairman? I certainly cannot and whoever it is seems to be doing s.f.a. to sort this out. From a Meath point of view, we need to play Cork to try and get the hammering out of our system but putting the game back any further than next weekend would be unfair on the Meath players.
Mick Dolan is the Cork Chairman. Jerry O'Sullivan, father of Diarmuid, the Cork hurling full-back is the County Vice-Chairman. That's why the players' attempts to portray this is as a Frank Murphy lone dictatorship are so farcical. Frank might have some dictatorial qualities, but not to the extent that he could force everyone to vote the way they did.
Why did Jerry O'Sullivan support or acquiesce in the new selectors' system? Was he doing it to get back at the players, who included his own son, one of the leading GPA men and strikers in Cork? (If we believe this version of events Frank Murphy can weave such spells that fathers can hate their own sons.) Or was it not that he happened to believe, rightly or wrongly, that the new selectors' arrangement was best?
Whatever about the rights or wrongs of the selectors arrangement, does anyone believe that the Cork footballers would take their grievance to a ridiculous strike scenario if Donal Og Cusack were not agitating full time in the background?
Quote from: quidnunc on February 02, 2008, 12:16:55 PM
Mick Dolan is the Cork Chairman. Jerry O'Sullivan, father of Diarmuid, the Cork hurling full-back is the County Vice-Chairman. That's why the players' attempts to portray this is as a Frank Murphy lone dictatorship are so farcical. Frank might have some dictatorial qualities, but not to the extent that he could force everyone to vote the way they did.
Why did Jerry O'Sullivan support or acquiesce in the new selectors' system? Was he doing it to get back at the players, who included his own son, one of the leading GPA men and strikers in Cork? (If we believe this version of events Frank Murphy can weave such spells that fathers can hate their own sons.) Or was it not that he happened to believe, rightly or wrongly, that the new selectors' arrangement was best?
Whatever about the rights or wrongs of the selectors arrangement, does anyone believe that the Cork footballers would take their grievance to a ridiculous strike scenario if Donal Og Cusack were not agitating full time in the background?
This wouldnt be the same Mick Dolan, the senior GAA offical in Cork, who has vanished without trace since this episode erupted?Nobody, only the completely insane, believes putting in place conditions that would mean the better coaches in Cork wouldnt take the job is anything other than in the worst interests of Cok GAA. Its quite simply a power grab. If the players give an inch in this their doomed to see all consesions eroded until were back in pre 2002 conditions again.
QuoteThis wouldnt be the same Mick Dolan, the senior GAA offical in Cork, who has vanished without trace since this episode erupted?
Strange, I seem to recall that Mick Dolan led the county board delegation into last week's talks with Kieran Mulvey. And of course he chaired the county convention and county board meetings over the last few months. Clearly rumours of his demise are altogether exaggerated.
QuoteWhatever about the rights or wrongs of the selectors arrangement, does anyone believe that the Cork footballers would take their grievance to a ridiculous strike scenario if Donal Og Cusack were not agitating full time in the background?
I certainly do, I've said this before but if I were a Cork footballer I wouldn't play for Teddy Holland as things stand. It is the footballers who are insisting that Teddy stands down not the hurlers.
Quote from: Zulu on February 01, 2008, 11:38:16 PM
What do they lose if they 'capitulate' to the players?
Sorry Zulu, only saw your post. my point is that they took action over much more serious grievences cupla years ago and suceeded. Their issues this time round, whilst emotive do not hold the moral high ground in the same way and the co board have to stem the flow.
Sean Og is on Tubridy tonight shortly so we might get some insight on the latest goings on.
Not much insight. I'd say Donal óg will be doing most of the talking from now on. Seán óg is a bit inarticulate I think.
Yeah Sean Og spoke very poorly.
Both sides have taken absolute positions which makes a solution impossible without one or both sides performing an embarassing climb-down. Kieran Mulvey was the obvious choice to break that conundrum despite the GPA bashers here paranoia.
Picking one person from either party and blaming him for everything as some have done here is hardly an intelligent assessment of the situtation. Relations between officials and players is one of the great imponderables in the Gaa. Both parties resent the importance aforded to the other. It happens in many counties and most clubs if we admit it.
Blindly taking one side and blaming the other totally is nonsense.
Royals square up to Rebels over date for match
Saturday February 02 2008
FRUSTRATED Meath have flashed out a blunt warning that they are running out of patience and will not play the postponed Football League tie with Cork any later than next weekend.
"We agreed last week to a seven-day deferral. We didn't seek the League points. All we wanted was to play the game but if it's re-fixed, it has to be for Saturday or Sunday next week -- otherwise we won't be fulfilling the fixture," said Meath manager Colm Coyle.
The Division 2 game, a repeat of last year's All-Ireland semi-final, was due to be played in Pairc Tailteann tonight but was called off because of the Cork strike. Coyle said that there had been speculation that if the Cork row was settled, the game would be re-fixed for March 9, which was not acceptable to Meath.
"We won't be playing then. It would mean that we were being asked to play six games in a seven-week period whereas everybody else, except ourselves and Cork, who have created this problem, will have six games in nine weeks. If the game is re-fixed for March 9, we would be out on three successive weekends and when you factor in a few U-21 and Sigerson Cup games, depending on results of course, it could put enormous pressure on our young players at a time when the GAA has been immersed in a debate over burnout."
Disadvantage
Meath have written to Croke Park explaining why they won't play the Cork game any later than next weekend and are clearly annoyed at what they perceive is a situation which is putting them at a distinct disadvantage just as the season is ready for take-off.
Coyle added: "We are the innocent party as the conflict is in Cork, yet we may be penalised with a compounding of our fixtures schedule just because they haven't been able to sort out their differences. We have our players to think about and we are not prepared to be penalised for something which has nothing to do with us."
There will be a good deal of sympathy for Meath's position. They could have sought to be awarded the League points on the basis that Cork were unable to field a team for a competition whose starting date was known for several months. However, in the interests of diplomacy, Meath agreed to the deferral this weekend but are concerned that even if the Cork row was solved over the next few days, the match would not be re-fixed for some weeks. That would put Meath at a disadvantage, unable to start their League campaign until February 17 (v Roscommon) before facing into a very busy schedule in March. Meath have made it clear that they want to be as accommodating as possible but are not prepared to wait indefinitely for Cork to reach a resolution.
The GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee will meet early next week and, given Meath's stated stand, will be left with no alternative but to re-fix the game for next weekend if the Cork row is resolved.
Typical Meath!
The GAA should permit further postponements - Cork should be told to either field a team or pack it in for the rest of the season - that way, they'll have plenty of time to talk to each other and resolve their differences.
From today's Sunday Tribune (not sure who the author is)
WHY, I once asked of a very wise man, was a certain thundering Meath GAA official of my acquaintance, all of the following: difficult, obstreperous, untrustworthy, bullying, and disrespectful at all times? The answer came in the form of a returned doublebarrelled question which, of course, extremely wise men are fond of doing to the rest of us. Did I not think, he asked, that all of the above characteristics were necessary qualities for someone to be able to rule the GAA membership in a county with absolute authority, and without these particular set of qualities did I also not think that such a 'ruler' would be run out of town, by a motley crew of club chairmen and delegates with different portions of these qualities, in double quick time?
Chew on this for a moment, as I take an immediate opportunity to assure Frank Murphy and everyone who knows him, that I am NOT suggesting for one minute that he is a difficult, obstreperous, untrustworthy, bullying and disrespectful man. I do not know the Cork County secretary well enough to stick even one of these labels on his person.
Sean Og O hAilpin (right) asked for Frank Murphy's head on a plate over the course of the last week which ended with the shameful and damning act of the Cork football team being unable to fulfil their opening National League game of the year.
This low point in the county's history was largely the fault, in my opinion, of the Cork football team. They should feel rightly disgusted with themselves this morning but, of course, they are experiencing no such thing . . . or, at least they don't give the rest of the country the impression they feel any such emotion.
Personally, I feel sorry for them. The footballers and hurlers in the county are misguided. Like all footballers and hurlers in every other county they see GAA life in only two colours, black and white. I can say this, because, for 18 years, from the age of 13 until I retired at 30, I was a county footballer and lived amongst county footballers. I was always so absolutely certain in my head who was on my side, and who was the enemy . . . and I would see the enemy walking around in our dressing-room on a regular basis.
Now I think differently when I look back. Now, to be perfectly honest, I realise that if the GAA was left in the hands of its players, it would end up in ruin.
I'm still a player's man and I am proud to be a player's man. Old footballers and hurlers will always think fondly of young footballers and hurlers. I think the world of them, and I'd give the world to them if I was given half a chance which, of course, might be extremely foolish of me, and might lead to some of the ruin I've just forecast in the last paragraph.
Over the course of this winter, I have speedily journeyed from being a great fan of the GPA to become someone who now feels, simply, offended by this same body.
They called 'strike' and GAA president, Nicky Brennan caved in . . . which led me to conclude that Nicky was neither strong nor brave enough, nor sufficiently difficult, obstreperous, untrustworthy, bullying or disrespectful to be a giant amongst GAA leaders.
This winter, also, we've heard the lads down in Cork call 'strike' for the second time in more recent years. Whether they are right or wrong in their belief and motivation, they were completely in the wrong in seeing to it that last night's game was thrown out the window. They must take the largest share of the blame for the failure of the LR C chief executive, Kieran Mulvey to resolve the issue over the course of the last week, and if Cork get booted out of both leagues over the course of the next week then this bunch of footballers and hurlers should have the reddest faces of all.
If Frank Murphy was as big and as bad, as O hAilpin and the lads would have us believe, then this same bunch of footballers and hurlers would have red arses by now. But my sincere advice to Frank is that he should seriously consider putting some manners on this grouping of young men, and ensure into the future that a strike is never again called in Cork.
Frank should never have allowed it to be decreed in Cork, in the first place, that the football manager would not, in the immediate future, be permitted to choose his own selectors. This was Frank Murphy and his closest buddies wanting to put manners on Billy Morgan, more than anything else. It was not a clever move, and they should have known it was unworkable.
In a short time, this decree would have extinguished itself and it would not have needed very much help from anybody before doing so. It certainly did not need the help of the footballers and hurlers in Cork.
My advice to these footballers and hurlers is to get to hell out of this rotten, dirty corner they have burrowed themselves into, and to do so as fast as possible. They don't even have to apologise on the way out of the corner, not if they don't want to. Not one Cork jersey belongs to even one of these individuals.
The Cork jersey is a precious cloth which is handed from generation to generation. Sean Og and those around him are indeed fortunate men to be blessed with their skills and athleticism, and they are even luckier men to be born into a great, proud, successful county. Being the outstanding hurler he is does not give him the right to put one jersey out of sight of any man, woman or child in Cork.
And my advice to Teddy Holland, the man who is now being identified by the footballers and hurlers as the single greatest impediment to life returning to near-normal in the Cork dressing-rooms, is to sit down with his selectors and choose, and name, a Cork senior football team . . . and keep on choosing and keep on naming teams until, one day soon, there are enough footballers in his dressingroom to form such a team.
Quote from: Blacksheep on February 03, 2008, 10:47:48 AM
Typical Meath!
Is that an effort to have a swipe at Meath or do you genuinely believe that Meath are being unreasonable here?
Zulu - that reads like Liam Hayes. I don't often find myself in agreement with him, but I agree with all of that.
Agorm, I'd say that was a joke. But, in fact, it's more true than he thinks.
Yeah Hardy your right it was Liam Hayes, can't believe it didn't click with me. However you won't be surprised to hear that I disagree with him on this. Apparently there are some good articles in today's Sunday Indo, if anyone could post them up.
Eamon Sweeney ( not a man I normally have any time for) is hard on the players and quotes Sean Og back when they were looking for 'the evil one ' to get them of the Thurles hook and every one was agin Cork & Frank Murphy. Also inside was an article on how much it is costing to run teams. Cork sspent € 1.3m and I can't help wondering if this is not what it is really about. Efforts by the Co. Board to control expenditure snd players and some mentord refusing to accept that cut backs may be necessary
I read in one of the papers today where the Cork strikers are trying to bring other panels into the strike as well and make it a national dispute - the quicker the GAA throw Cork out of the NFL the better - it might only then bring the players to their senses - only then might they sit down and talk sensibly to the county board.
What a sad state . The biggest most successfull county not in a position to field teams in the league . What a job Mr Murphy a full time highly paid offical has done in promoting our games in our biggest and most successful county especially if the GAA does the right thing and kick them out of the championship . I know the players are not blameless in this but I hold him primarily repsonsible as the man who could have done most to avoid this happening . Can you imagine in this day and age any chief executive bringing such chaos to his organisation . Frank Murphy had achieved a lot and been paid alot for his contribution to the GAA but he had also put in place one of the least deomcratic county boards in the country . Can someone confirm what level of debate the opening of Croke Park received at either club or county board level in Cork .?
Frank Murphy had achieved a lot and been paid a lot for his contribution to the GAA -
So Frank Murphy MADE all the delegates vote for a change in the rule - and he made all the delegates at last weeks meeting say he was great fella ??????? Come on now - this is plainly ridiculuos - open your eyes - the players should go back and start to play again - all GAA supporters now see Cork hulrlers and footballers as a pack of spoilt children ! They are pathetic.
Some of those Cork players dont seem to realise that GAA in Cork will keep going and the world will keep turning when they have retired.....
I liked Eamon Sweeneys article on the whole thing today. It's quite disrespectful to the clubs to accuse them of being clueless marionettes in Uncle Franks puppet show.
Quote from: orangeman on February 03, 2008, 08:33:04 PM
Frank Murphy had achieved a lot and been paid a lot for his contribution to the GAA -
So Frank Murphy MADE all the delegates vote for a change in the rule - and he made all the delegates at last weeks meeting say he was great fella ??????? Come on now - this is plainly ridiculuos - open your eyes - the players should go back and start to play again - all GAA supporters now see Cork hulrlers and footballers as a pack of spoilt children ! They are pathetic.
My point is that he as one of the most experienced people in the room could have seen the consequences of the vote that night . The motion was a step to take control back from Billy Morgan . Frank Murphy was involved in the previos row with the hurlers . Why did the Cork County board not make the issue should Billy Morgan stay or go ?and keep the row with the Hurlers out of it . Other County Boards have done this look at Kerry where Paidi was shown the door yet his 3 nephews were kept on board .Was anything learnt from the strike in 2002 . ?. I have heard that a lot of clubs have issues with both the performance of the team management and the impact postponments had on the club game in 2006 and 2007 but is the best way to deal with this a quick motion at a routine meeting of the counyt board . could any one have seen this happening . ?.
I dont think Sean Og O Halpin is a spoilt child but I do admit if it were my county I might have a different view about players been on strike . This thing is getting serious and embarrissing for all Gaa people .What would have happened in Tyrone ?.
Can nobody think of a reason why the Co. Board might want to take control of a county team back from the management. Maybe its the same reason I don't give my kids my cashcard and PIN number. Maybe ythey felt it was time some control over spending was exercised - last year the teams cost €1.3M to run and I suppose the oodd Co. Board member might have felt a certain responsability for this. Maybe they were giving a lead to the rest of the country that its time for Co. Boards to start reestablishing their authority over team management who think they can spend money like water.
I dont think this about money .The motion is about appointing selectors . I hope my county board does not take this approach about minor expenses . What do we want bean counters managing the teams or experienced, knowledgible amd passionate people
Quote from: Zulu on February 02, 2008, 03:25:19 PM
QuoteWhatever about the rights or wrongs of the selectors arrangement, does anyone believe that the Cork footballers would take their grievance to a ridiculous strike scenario if Donal Og Cusack were not agitating full time in the background?
I certainly do, I've said this before but if I were a Cork footballer I wouldn't play for Teddy Holland as things stand. It is the footballers who are insisting that Teddy stands down not the hurlers.
So basically what the players are saying is that if Teddy Holland steps down they are willing to play for a new manager, who will be appointed by the same county board and have selectors foisted upon him also? Presuming that the County Board delegates from the clubs will vote for this rule to be retained (for a third time)
Is that it the gists of it or am I missing something?
My friend if you don't have some sort of bean counting you run the risk of running out of beans! Ask them in Roscommon!!
The County Board undermined Billy Morgan by passing the motion on selectors. This may or may not have been in the best interests of Cork football and it is very difficult for those of us on the outside to call that one.
Morgan predictably couldn't live with the new arrangements and the CB appointed Holland as his replacement. The players supported Morgan, even though publically he isn't part of the row he must at least be smiling to himself somewhere.
It is hard to know if the players would have had any problem with Holland in different circumstances but he allowed himself to be appointed and unfortunately for him has become the personification of the entire problem. It is impossible for him to manage the team now. At best he showed poor political nous. He will be the patsy.
The paranoia about the GPA is only muddying the waters and isn't the issue. Players have done this in counties long before the GPA. Some were kept out of the media but it doesn't change the fact that there is plenty of precedent of player power in the Gaa.
The real problem now is that the principals involved have lost the plot and are only interested in demolishing the opposition, it hasn't dawned on either of them that if they succeed they will very seriously damage themselves.
What a sorry mess - the players should be out at training this week getting ready for the match at the weekend - just what is it that they think they are helping the situation by striking ?
Seán Óg made a tit out of himself on Tubridy Tonight the other evening. Came across very badly and really arrogant which surprised me a bit.
Nail head hit
QuoteTribune Archive
Rebel, Rebel, the place is a mess
Michael Clifford
PRINCE was coming to town.
The year was 1990, and the Minneapolis midget was at the height of his powers. He was due to play in Pairc Ui Chaoimh, the home of Cork GAA. Some bright spark in the local paper dreamt up a good angle. Prince's stage show and lyrics were sexually explicit. How would that go down with the good burghers who ran the county's GAA?
Asked for a comment, chairman Denis Conroy spelt out how it was going to be.
"We are going to have to sit down around the table with Prince and discuss this, " he told the Evening Echo.
Can you imagine how Prince would have reacted?
The little guy may live in a world of his own, but a sitdown with the top bods of the Cork GAA would have had him wondering what planet they were on.
Same as it ever was. The current impasse between the county board and players in Cork is portrayed as being a clash of two headstrong and stubborn entities, neither capable of showing a reasonable face.
Far from it. The players are no different from their counterparts in places like Kerry or Kilkenny, young men who are living the dream, mad to chase All-Ireland medals, pursuing excellence and sacrificing a lot to do it.
They don't want to just play for Cork. They want to win for Cork.
The board, led by Frank Murphy, the J Edgar Hoover of the GAA, is intent on curtailing the pursuit of excellence. Unlike in practically every other county, they want to impose selectors on the team manager. Few selfrespecting managers in either code would put up with that. Billy Morgan, a turbulent and committed servant to gaelic football in the county, certainly wouldn't, so he opted out. Many believe getting rid of Morgan was the object of the exercise. Billy was never one to doff the cap at those who felt they were entitled to some doffing.
Pursuing excellence is not the way in the Cork county board. In the mind of that collective, it is un-Cork to pursue anyone or anything. If excellence wants to show up by the Lee, then it will be welcomed. But there will be no pursuing it. To do so would be to concede that excellence is better than Cork, and that could never be.
Far more important is to keep players in their subservient place, to ensure that the manager doesn't get above himself and to enjoy the ride, win, lose or draw.
A prediction: if the board gets its way in this strike, Frank Murphy will turn up as a selector himself on the hurling or football team within three years. Way to go, Frank. Show them who's boss.
The players will never make it in the public-relations business. They haven't been well-advised and, as a result, are having rings run around them in the PR game by the county board. But they certainly have right on their side. In an era when sportspeople are obsessed with money, these men simply want the chance to be as good as they can, to pursue excellence, for themselves and the jersey. They deserve full backing.
There is one solution to the current impasse. Teddy Holland, the imposed manager whom the players refuse to play for, could be dispatched to manage the Irish soccer team. That bunch don't really give a fiddlers about playing for their country so they won't notice that a new man has been borrowed from another code.
And Cork could welcome their footballing savior to the Second City, El Tel Venables.
Everybody likes the geezer.
He is known to get on well with players, and the county board will be delighted with a manager who knows how to make a few bob rather than throw it away on proper training facilities and hot showers.
Meanwhile, the Kerry footballers and Kilkenny hurlers are dreading a year with Cork out of the equation. Both counties are chasing a threein-a-row in their respective codes. If each of them manage the feat without facing a Cork team, they will forever be stained with winning a "soft" three-in-a-row because the Rebels were off the pitch.
Even when they're not playing, there's no getting away from them.
Are you sure you haven't hurt your thumb there passedit. What a biased peice of journalism
Not one mention of the 1.4 million spent by the very same county board he is attacking on training cork teams last year. WTF??? If the guy is not going to provide some balance in his article then I can only assume he has his agenda to write in this lop sided manner
Quote from: passedit on February 04, 2008, 12:56:08 PM
Nail head hit
Not much in terms of balance there.
So far it is plain to see that the players have embarked on a media drive to gain support / sympathy - meanwhile the CB have said nothing and have kept their counsel. The players' attempts have backfired and you'll struggle to meet anyone who has any sympathy.
QuoteThe board, led by Frank Murphy, the J Edgar Hoover of the GAA, is intent on curtailing the pursuit of excellence
This is obviously total bullshit and shows that article to be completely one-sided and not worth reading.
Quote from: theskull1 on February 04, 2008, 01:31:58 PM
Are you sure you haven't hurt your thumb there passedit. What a biased peice of journalism
Not one mention of the 1.4 million spent by the very same county board he is attacking on training cork teams last year. WTF??? If the guy is not going to provide some balance in his article then I can only assume he has his agenda to write in this lop sided manner
Quote from: passedit on February 04, 2008, 12:56:08 PM
Nail head hit
I was referring to the bold italics (mine). This is the root cause of the problem. As for balance, i can see that this article could have been written by one of the more militant cork players, but it does add balance to the majority of the contributions on this thread.
I think you will find that the majority of people are saing that whilsteverything may not be perfect in Cork, playershave NOT the right to go on strike as a result of how the co. board appointe a manager - almost everyone is of the view that the players should just get on with playing and leave the politics for others to sort out.
Quote from: muppet on February 03, 2008, 10:57:35 PM
. The players supported Morgan, even though publically he isn't part of the row he must at least be smiling to himself somewhere.
i very much doubt it,morgan is true gael and in no way would want the players to strike,when players withdrew there services after eamon coleman was ridiculessly sacked he wanted the players to go back and play
Quote from: orangeman on February 04, 2008, 02:28:35 PM
I think you will find that the majority of people are saing that whilsteverything may not be perfect in Cork, playershave NOT the right to go on strike as a result of how the co. board appointe a manager - almost everyone is of the view that the players should just get on with playing and leave the politics for others to sort out.
so what part of
Quotebut it does add balance to the majority of the contributions on this thread.
do you not get?
Quote from: tram on February 03, 2008, 11:14:56 PM
Quote from: johnpower on February 03, 2008, 08:59:02 PMWhat would have happened in Tyrone ?.
At the last county convention there was a motion unanimously passed that said that Tyrone county teams are to be fielded regardless of any players on the panel at the time withdrawing their services.
What if all the squad withdrew and nobody acted the blackleg? How would they field a team if they had no players ???
As for Cork -why doesnt Croke Park take over the running of the teams for the NFL/NHL?
After all if the Westmeath Co Board made a hash of Financial things and Croke Park can take over why not do the same in Cork where the Co Board has made a hash of things .Whatever their original motives may have been they have now ****ed up bigtime seeing as nobody will play for them.
As for saying players have no right to strike- they are amateurs and can do what they like.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2008, 03:12:04 PMthey have now ****ed up bigtime seeing as nobody will play for them.
Nobody has been asked to play for them.
Just answer me one questrion
Where do the clubs stand on this issue?
The county board are only there to represent the clubs, if the clubs are against the county board on this than the players have credence in their arguement. If the players are defying the clubs wishe then they can gtf. The clubs are the GAA in Cork and for anyone to say that the clubs do not act in the best interest of the GAA in their own county is an awful slur.
Quote from: stephenite on February 03, 2008, 10:31:14 PM
So basically what the players are saying is that if Teddy Holland steps down they are willing to play for a new manager, who will be appointed by the same county board and have selectors foisted upon him also? Presuming that the County Board delegates from the clubs will vote for this rule to be retained (for a third time)
Is that it the gists of it or am I missing something?
Yes you are missing something!
Basically we all know the players were upset about the forced selectors. They also thought that there was something not right about the way it was brought in and that it would be reversed. They asked all contenders for the football job not to put themselves forward until it was sorted out. Therefore some candidates withdrew from the race. Holland did not, and got the job.
Now that the forced selectors issue has been ratified by the Cork County Board, it seems that the players will have to reluctantly accept it. What they are finding very hard to accept is the opportunism of Holland, and they see it as him benefiting from being unscrupulous. So they want the race to be re-run with all the candidates back in, and let the CCB select the best from the full list.
What your missing is that a number of contenders pulled out of the race the first time because of the hullabaloo. The players had asked all contenders not to put themselves forward until it was sorted.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 04, 2008, 03:12:04 PM
Quote from: tram on February 03, 2008, 11:14:56 PM
Quote from: johnpower on February 03, 2008, 08:59:02 PMWhat would have happened in Tyrone ?.
At the last county convention there was a motion unanimously passed that said that Tyrone county teams are to be fielded regardless of any players on the panel at the time withdrawing their services.
As for saying players have no right to strike- they are amateurs and can do what they like.
exactly,they are amateurs and the cork county board are not making them do anything they dont want to,if they dont like it step aside and let new players take there place,but this wont happen because any player asked to replace the existing player will come under severe pressure not to turn out even if they want too.
If they haven't sorted out their differences by tomorrow they will be expelled from the NHL & NFL. That will be a big blow to Cork. Relegated to lowest Divisions for next year will a huge loss of income, both this year and next year.
http://sports.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2008/02/01/GAA-Cork-given-deadline/?facets/sport-space/great-britain-locale/gaa/Hurling/ (http://sports.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2008/02/01/GAA-Cork-given-deadline/?facets/sport-space/great-britain-locale/gaa/Hurling/)
I doubt if any player in Cork would want to act the blackleg in the current situation.
Clubs/Co boards/Committees are all fine in their own way but if any GAA unit isnt playing games then what is the point.
The Cork Co Board is in fact trying to make players do something they dont want -play for a Manager who cant pick his own selectors.
Anyone know what's the position with their Minor and U 21 teams?
Sean Og still wants Frank Murphy to stand down. I'd say there's no chance of that happening. In any dispute you need to understand what your opponent can and can't conceed. This has become personnal and I can see no resolution where both parties can walk away with some dignity. It's almost becoming a fight to the death betwen County Board and senior players!
O'Hailpin stands by Murphy comments
by Brian Murphy, 04 February 2008
Cork hurler Sean Og O hAilpin has reiterated his belief that county board secretary Frank Murphy has to resign if any resolution to the impasse between the players and Rebel officials is to be found.
The Na Piarsaigh clubman caused a stir in Cork last week when he called for the head of the well-known Cork administrator.
Relations between the two warring parties have not cooled in the intervening period and O hAilpin is standing by his comments.
"What's happening down in Cork is a big mess. The players are not playing" O'Hailpin told the Sun.
"The hurlers are scheduled to play Kilkenny next week and that mightn't go ahead. Basically, we have a situation at the moment that the Cork players want to play but more importantly they want to win.
"Unfortunately, we have a system at the minute that doesn't give us a winning chance.
"For amateurs that put in a lot of time and don't get paid for it - and mark my words this is not about money - I think the least we deserve is a system that gives us a winning chance and I think that's what this problem is about.
"Hopefully the negotiations will be ongoing to get this thing resolved sooner rather than later because the players want to get back playing. I made my comments clear last week.
"I stand by them but that is all I'm going to say on it," O'Hailpin added.
Tuesday is now effectively D-day for any prospects of the matter being resolved after the GAA confirmed that it will not tolerate any more postponements and need to be informed of Cork's intentions for the upcoming Kilkenny clash.
Quote from: Lecale2 on February 04, 2008, 03:43:30 PM
Sean Og still wants Frank Murphy to stand down. I'd say there's no chance of that happening. In any dispute you need to understand what your opponent can and can't conceed. This has become personnal and I can see no resolution where both parties can walk away with some dignity. It's almost becoming a fight to the death betwen County Board and senior players!
O'Hailpin stands by Murphy comments
by Brian Murphy, 04 February 2008
Cork hurler Sean Og O hAilpin has reiterated his belief that county board secretary Frank Murphy has to resign if any resolution to the impasse between the players and Rebel officials is to be found.
The Na Piarsaigh clubman caused a stir in Cork last week when he called for the head of the well-known Cork administrator.
Relations between the two warring parties have not cooled in the intervening period and O hAilpin is standing by his comments.
"What's happening down in Cork is a big mess. The players are not playing" O'Hailpin told the Sun.
"The hurlers are scheduled to play Kilkenny next week and that mightn't go ahead. Basically, we have a situation at the moment that the Cork players want to play but more importantly they want to win.
"Unfortunately, we have a system at the minute that doesn't give us a winning chance.
"For amateurs that put in a lot of time and don't get paid for it - and mark my words this is not about money - I think the least we deserve is a system that gives us a winning chance and I think that's what this problem is about.
"Hopefully the negotiations will be ongoing to get this thing resolved sooner rather than later because the players want to get back playing. I made my comments clear last week.
"I stand by them but that is all I'm going to say on it," O'Hailpin added.
Tuesday is now effectively D-day for any prospects of the matter being resolved after the GAA confirmed that it will not tolerate any more postponements and need to be informed of Cork's intentions for the upcoming Kilkenny clash.
why the reference to money?these men have 1 serious chip on there shoulder
Cork Players to return to Field under certain Conditions.
The continuing controversy raging in the Rebel County took on a new twist today ahead of the now in doubt first National League match scheduled for this weekend. In a statement released just after lunchtime the Cork Senior Inter County Footballers and Hurlers have issued a statement indicating that they would retake the playing field in the red jersey if the following ten conditions were met;
1. All inter-county players receive an apology from the Cork County Board for the embarrassment caused to the People of Cork for this "Laurel & Hardy" mess.
2. That all Cork matches home and away are played in Páirc Uí Chaoimh and no away supporters allowed admission to the ground.
3. The GAA rename the Sam Maguire Cup the Jack Lynch Cup.
4. The Kerry football team will play in the Ulster Championship instead of the Munster championship.
5. The Cork Hurling team get automatic qualification to the All-Ireland semi-final every year.
6. That the illegitimate Football Manager Ted Holland, stands up at a meeting and admits he is illegitimate (that'll show the Ba*%$rd)
7. The government declare Cork city the official Capital of Ireland.
8. All future managers of the Cork teams have to undergo rigorous Psychological Assessment & in-depth Personality Profiling to see if they are up to the job. (This will take the form of having to spend hours locked in a room listening to Donal Og Cusack & Sean Og OHalpin, if they survive this they will be considered)
9. Each player is to get 4 packets of Walkers Cheese & Onion and 2 bottles of 7-up after each match.
10. Frank Murphy is to keep his job if he desists with the embarrassing comb-over.
Labour Relations Chief Executive Kieran Mulvey commented that "these demands seemed reasonable but that the only sticking point could be Frank Murphy's hair".
Quote from: Declan on February 04, 2008, 04:20:19 PM
Cork Players to return to Field under certain Conditions.
The continuing controversy raging in the Rebel County took on a new twist today ahead of the now in doubt first National League match scheduled for this weekend. In a statement released just after lunchtime the Cork Senior Inter County Footballers and Hurlers have issued a statement indicating that they would retake the playing field in the red jersey if the following ten conditions were met;
1. All inter-county players receive an apology from the Cork County Board for the embarrassment caused to the People of Cork for this "Laurel & Hardy" mess.
2. That all Cork matches home and away are played in Páirc Uí Chaoimh and no away supporters allowed admission to the ground.
3. The GAA rename the Sam Maguire Cup the Jack Lynch Cup.
4. The Kerry football team will play in the Ulster Championship instead of the Munster championship.
5. The Cork Hurling team get automatic qualification to the All-Ireland semi-final every year.
6. That the illegitimate Football Manager Ted Holland, stands up at a meeting and admits he is illegitimate (that'll show the Ba*%$rd)
7. The government declare Cork city the official Capital of Ireland.
8. All future managers of the Cork teams have to undergo rigorous Psychological Assessment & in-depth Personality Profiling to see if they are up to the job. (This will take the form of having to spend hours locked in a room listening to Donal Og Cusack & Sean Og OHalpin, if they survive this they will be considered)
9. Each player is to get 4 packets of Walkers Cheese & Onion and 2 bottles of 7-up after each match.
10. Frank Murphy is to keep his job if he desists with the embarrassing comb-over.
Labour Relations Chief Executive Kieran Mulvey commented that "these demands seemed reasonable but that the only sticking point could be Frank Murphy's hair".
the scary thing is that would not be that far away
I've already made this point but if as some on here would have you believe, there is little support for the players and if all the clubs stand by what their delegates voted for, why don't the CB just select two new panels. 60+ players have made themselves unavailable for Cork, the footballers have a backroom staff so why don't they just get on with it? Now some will argue that the players haven't just stood aside but they have gone on strike, but lets say they went on strike because the CB wouldn't provide stretched limos and groupies for all the players after every training session and match. Would every decent coach in both codes refuse to take on the teams, would other players refuse to play? I don't think they would, but in this scenario the CB and club delegates behaved in a manner that was detrimental to the Cork IC squads. Worse again they didn't do so out of stupidity but maliciously, and as such the players have every right to tell them shove it.
The democracy argument holds little sway for me, with power comes responsibility and the CB have failed in their responsibilities as far as I can see. Like I've said before if I were a Cork player I wouldn't tog off for a CB that showed so little honour and commitment to the jersey they were asking me to wear. It has been argued that the players should be honoured to represent Cork (and so they should) but administrators should be equally cognizant of their role in the GAA. For me, they have lost sight of that completely.
Unbelievable if this is the case... which must be seen as it's from hoganstand.
"GAA confirm more room for Cork
Croke Park have moved once again to give Cork more time to resolve their ongoing dispute by confirming that the hurlers game with Kilkenny this Sunday could be postponed and revealing that the footballers refixed game with Meath will not take place this weekend either.
On Friday officials seemed to indicate that by not fulfilling their NHL clash against Kilkenny, Cork would be thrown out of the leagues for this year and suffer immediate relegation. However, today Croke Park has released a statement saying that counties may postpone one game in both the football and hurling leagues before the possibility of elimination occurs.
With regards to last Saturday's postponed NFL game with Meath, the statement indicates that this tie is scheduled for 9 March.
"In relation to games not played in the Allianz football league at the weekend, the GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee have confirmed that March 9th was the date originally allocated to accommodate any necessary refixtures from the first round of the football league," said the Croke Park statement.
"The CCCC have indicated however that where counties reach agreement to play before that date, this can be facilitated by the Committee. The next meeting of the CCCC will take place on February 19th."
That news means that Cork have been given more breathing space to resolve the ongoing dispute over the power of a manager to appoint his own selectors. If the NHL game with Kilkenny is postponed, then the next Cork fixture is set for the Saturday 16 February when the footballers are due to host Dublin. The hurlers are in action the following day against Waterford.
Cork's willingness to participate in either of those games will have to be indicated to the CCCC on Wednesday 13 February, which means that the Cork county board and their senior panels have nine days to resolve the dispute."
It wouldn't be done for any other county now would it?
Very good piece Declan ! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Here's a though for the footballers / hurlers :
What if the Cork County board were to insist that Donal Og or Sean Og stepped aside ?????? How would that go down ????? ??? ??? ???
What a silly suggestion by Sean Og that Murphy step aside ! >:( >:( >:(
talk about moving the goal posts,this is another case where brennan has been shown up badly,when he came to office he promised the earth and how he would stand strong but twice already he has calfed,first with the gpa and now this.these things would not have happened with boothman or mccauge
Croke Park is actually helping to prolong the agony here. Cork should be told that they're out of the NFL - it's a joke.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 04, 2008, 04:54:18 PM
talk about moving the goal posts,this is another case where brennan has been shown up badly,when he came to office he promised the earth and how he would stand strong but twice already he has calfed,first with the gpa and now this.these things would not have happened with boothman or mccauge
Amazing. Im no fan of Nickey Brennen, what Cork man could be after his outburstafter Semplegate, but how can anybody state that adhereing to rules/regulations of the association is moving the goalposts.
Quote from: orangeman on February 04, 2008, 04:56:02 PM
Croke Park is actually helping to prolong the agony here. Cork should be told that they're out of the NFL - it's a joke.
Croke park is following its own rules and regulations.
I'd worry that there will be mayhem on the field if this game ever gets played as the Meath players will be extremely wound up. Hammered us in an all-ireland semi and then f*cked us around in the League. It's going to get messy.
Quote from: Jinxy on February 04, 2008, 05:19:48 PM
I'd worry that there will be mayhem on the field if this game ever gets played as the Meath players will be extremely wound up. Hammered us in an all-ireland semi and then f*cked us around in the League. It's going to get messy.
Im sure Cork will be scared sh1tless of a bunch who shat themselves at the sight of the red jersey the last time they met. ;D
Im sure Cork will be scared sh1tless of a bunch who shat themselves at the sight of the red jersey the last time they met.
Is that what happened in the Cork / Kerry AI final ?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
They'll wish they stayed on strike!! >:(
Once again Cork get special treatment. If it was Kilkenny footballers or Leitrim hurlers would they get the same grace to sort it out? I can't see it some how.
Quote from: Hound on February 04, 2008, 03:28:16 PM
Quote from: stephenite on February 03, 2008, 10:31:14 PM
So basically what the players are saying is that if Teddy Holland steps down they are willing to play for a new manager, who will be appointed by the same county board and have selectors foisted upon him also? Presuming that the County Board delegates from the clubs will vote for this rule to be retained (for a third time)
Is that it the gists of it or am I missing something?
Yes you are missing something!
Basically we all know the players were upset about the forced selectors. They also thought that there was something not right about the way it was brought in and that it would be reversed. They asked all contenders for the football job not to put themselves forward until it was sorted out. Therefore some candidates withdrew from the race. Holland did not, and got the job.
Now that the forced selectors issue has been ratified by the Cork County Board, it seems that the players will have to reluctantly accept it. What they are finding very hard to accept is the opportunism of Holland, and they see it as him benefiting from being unscrupulous. So they want the race to be re-run with all the candidates back in, and let the CCB select the best from the full list.
What your missing is that a number of contenders pulled out of the race the first time because of the hullabaloo. The players had asked all contenders not to put themselves forward until it was sorted.
I honestly wasn't aware of that - out of interest what others were in the race for the job?
No names have been mentioned but it is widely accepted that others were approached. The CB said that Teddy was their first choice but I don't believe that. There are at least two lads who deserved to be interviewed (at minimum) for the job. So the CB are either lying or they were negligent in their duties, IMO Teddy Holland isn't up to senior IC management but no-one would suggest that his record is such that others needn't even be interviewed.
OK, so there was no race for the job and I wasn't missing anything. Just wanted to clear that up Hound.
I also hear Na Piarsaigh have written to the CB to distance themselves from Sean Og's comments and offering full support for TH and Frank Murphy
QuoteOK, so there was no race for the job and I wasn't missing anything. Just wanted to clear that up Hound
How do you get that from what I said, just because names are not being mentioned doesn't mean there weren't any. Of course your possibly right, maybe no-one else was approached but you can't say that with any certainty. Whether there was 1 or 101 people approached is fairly irrelevent, Teddy shouldn't have taken the job in the first place. It appears that his position is the only thing preventing a temporary solution and the players going back playing. So has Teddy the best interests of Cork at heart?
I have no idea of what interests TH has closest to his heart - not the issue.
Whilst I've no idea how many people were in the frame, neither do you and most people on here as you've said. But he was the democratically elected manager of the Cork football team
However my original point was that after all this, the only reasons the players are still on strike is the position of TH - and if he is removed from the equation the players will go back and play under a manager that is picked by the same CB and also have selectors foisted upon him, which is exactly why they went on strike in the first place. The only thing that they will have achieved is a commitment that the issue be revisited at next years convention, and given the clubs have voted twice the chances for the players getting their way would have to be seen as pretty slim.
So what will they have achieved - NOTHING!!! It's getting to Fr.Ted proportions now that some of the players are clinging to the removal of TH so they can be seen to save some face - the reality is they've made complete cocks of themselves in front of the rest of the country and have achieved nothing for their efforts.
Liam Hayes was right - TH should pick a panel of players and by mid March they'll all be back playing
Agreed Stephenite - it's now beyond a joke - and they got a few children out to "march" through Cork city tonight in the rain !!!!!
How did tonight's march go? Was it covered on the news etc?
RTE.ie reporting a crowd of several thousand
The crowd was between 6-800, I got that from a buddy who was there so that is probably accurate enough.
QuoteBut he was the democratically elected manager of the Cork football team
However my original point was that after all this, the only reasons the players are still on strike is the position of TH - and if he is removed from the equation the players will go back and play under a manager that is picked by the same CB and also have selectors foisted upon him, which is exactly why they went on strike in the first place. The only thing that they will have achieved is a commitment that the issue be revisited at next years convention, and given the clubs have voted twice the chances for the players getting their way would have to be seen as pretty slim.
So what will they have achieved - NOTHING!!! It's getting to Fr.Ted proportions now that some of the players are clinging to the removal of TH so they can be seen to save some face - the reality is they've made complete cocks of themselves in front of the rest of the country and have achieved nothing for their efforts.
The players issue with TH is the circumstances under which he took the job, that is why they can't play for him. As for the manager not picking his own selectors well apparently the CB let Teddy have a say in his backroom staff, so allowing the new man to do so shouldn't be a problem. And I'd be certain that on reflection clubs would revert to the old sytem at the end of the year.
If the clubs decide to vote in a 100% majority at the end of the season to revert to the old system than nobody would have any problems with that. However, as it stands at the moment they have acheived feck all/nada/nothing whatsoever by going on a ludicrous strike
Yes, but the players have every right not to make themselves available for Cork if they feel they support structures aren't there for success. I haven't heard the players try and prevent others from taking their place. So as far as I can see the CB tried to undermine the only people they want to represent Cork. The CB, the club delegates and now Teddy Holland have all acted for motives other than the betterment of their IC squads, as a result I support the players stance and hopefully lessons will be learned.
RTE said several thousand, TV3 said 700. From what I saw on the news, I'm going to go with TV3 on this one.
My own view is that the players could have lobbied their own clubs and delegates over the course of the season, and ended up with the same result at next years convention, without making complete asses of themselves in the process.
However, I also feel that there is a lot more to this then players not being happy with the selectors issue, confirmed by Sean Og's comments.
Sean Og and Donal Og appear to be the main spokesmen for the footballers. Why is that? Can no footballers speak for themselves? Neither should be picked for the county again. Not only have they dragged Cork into the gutter they're a disgrace to the GAA.
Sean Og has confirm that their real objective is to get rid of Frank Murphy. This will not happen. Frank is employed by the County Board. You just can't sack someone because a couple of members of the Association don't like him. It's hard to believe that they have managed to generate such sympathy for Frank - a man most GAA people (outside Cork) have no time for.
The behaviour of the players' spokesmen shows all the bull-in-a-china-shop finesse we've become used to from the GPA and Seán Óg's ridiculous outburst just illustrated the stupidity of their stance. It pains me to say that, because I have respect for the lad. As somebody suggested above, lesson one in negotiation and dispute management is that you must always allow your opponent a way out. If you make un-meetable demands, you can't win by definition. The only possible resolution then involves backing down. Stupid.
Quote from: stephenite on February 04, 2008, 10:31:35 PM
OK, so there was no race for the job and I wasn't missing anything. Just wanted to clear that up Hound.
There was no race but there were 3 or 4 contenders for the job, including Holland. The others did not let their names go forward for selection because of the mess. Holland did and thus won. That is a fact, and anyone who denies it is being disingenious. Whether Holland would have won anyway, nobody knows. But if they opened it up again, we'd find out.
Who were the 3 or 4 other contenders ? I know the U-21 manager Tony Leahy was mentioned, but I've not heard of any others
Who did or didn't want the job is irrelevant - they shouldn't have went on strike and now anybody that might have wanted the job won't touch it with a barge pole !
QuoteWho did or didn't want the job is irrelevant - they shouldn't have went on strike and now anybody that might have wanted the job won't touch it with a barge pole !
I'd agree with the first part of that OM but it is Teddy Holland who is now prolonging the pain. I believe the players were right to go on strike, you don't, at this stage it is clear that I'm not going to convince the pro-CB posters that I'm right and your not going to convince me that your right. So the only thing to discuss now is how to get out of this mess. The only realistic compromise that I can see is that Holland steps down and the issue of who picks selectors is re-visited after this years championship. Like I've said on many occasisons, he has lost the dressingroom so it is now pointless for him to continue anyway. So why is he doing it, is it possible that the CB are encouraging him to hold his ground? I find it hard to believe that he would stay in the face of player opposition and CB pressure.
From what I can gather (second hand tit bits from some involved on the ground) TH is adamant that he won't stand down - he believes that he was appointed by the County Board and therfore by the members of the clubs of Cork. Like nearly every other manager that has taken charge of any IC team over the years.
If the CB chose to sack him - then obviously he'll have no choice.
I agree with him. The players can either chose to play with him - or chose not to play with him. It's their choice, this spiteful insistence by the Cork intercounty players that he be the scapegoat so they can be seen to have taken something and save some face from a regrettable situation that was entirely of their own making is a disgrace, they're a disgrace, every last one of them.
Sean Og has publicly intimated that one of the reasons behind this whole thing has nothing to do with Teddy Holland but more to do with Frank Murphy, so why he is now going to allow this man to publicly fall on the IC players sword. Like Hardy above, I've always had a great deal of respect for Sean Og and what he has acheived, and it's with regret that I lament his recent media performances, he has shown to have a real lack of class and absolutley no honour.
Some pages back Zulu accuses the County Board of having no honour snd faailing in their responsabilities. The fact is they were so failing in their responsabilities that and so keen to dishonour the IC teams that they only spent 1.3 million Euros on them!
Have to agree with many posters that Sean Og is starting to loose his reputation. Frank Murphy was a great man when he was trying to get them off after Thurles but all of a sudden when he is acting with the full support of a very large County Board he must resign to satisfy two panels totalling 60 players.
Another poster says that the players want to play - please remember all the other players in Cork not in the previleged position of the IC panels who also want to play and have their games postponed repeatedly at the behest of County team management. Have they gone on strike over the way they are being treated?
Quote from: zoyler on February 05, 2008, 10:52:21 AM
please remember all the other players in Cork ... who also want to play and have their games postponed repeatedly
Not to mention those in Meath!
I don't think Sean Óg's performance is a big surprise to be honest.
Anyhow, I missed his appearance on the Clothes Peg show. Did he repeat his call for Frank Murphy to go? Did he repeat allegations of being force fed sandwiches after training, or having to put up with cold showers, and too few dinners after a match?
All of those would be serious issues, and reflect badly on the CCB.
Teddy Holland is not the problem, really, down in Cork. I think the players realise that they have taken the nuclear option way too early here, and have picked their battle badly. Now they are saying that if Teddy Holland goes, they will go back, even with the same situation in place? That sounds to me like they would prefer to sacrifice Teddy Holland, than them having the good grace to end the strike until the matter is debated next autumn.
The only thing they will have 'achieved' is to get Teddy Holland to resign. And I am afraid that is what will happen, and then the statements from Donal óg Cusack and the rest of his cohort will be sickening to my stomach. I can see them now.
All the discussion in the media is about either Cork playing or not playing. The third option of Cork playing, but without any person who is unhappy with the current regime, does not seem to have been raised at all (or at least I have not seen it).
Would Holland be able to cobble a team together?
Surely it would have to be better than scratching fixtures, though I would not be in favour of using the U21 team. Many individuals under 21 are capable of playing senior intercounty, but I don't think it would be right to play a team of under 21s against a senior intercounty team in a competivie match. They should be trawling the many many clubs of Cork looking for men willing to play.
Personally I think the players have every right to withdraw their services, and have every right to voice their opinions, and I think they have every right to object to the way Holland was appointed. But I don't believe anyone should be calling it a strike, and I think the players would be very much in the wrong if they formed a picket type situation that would prevent (or intimidate) other players from playing.
Both Frank Murphy and Sean Og have given a tremendous amount to the GAA. And Sean Og, being the man he is, would not call for the resignation of Murphy without good reason. It does not mean Murphy has to resign though, and being the conniving politician that everybody knows he is, there is of course no chance of such a thing happening.
Quote from: Hound on February 05, 2008, 11:50:09 AM
All the discussion in the media is about either Cork playing or not playing. The third option of Cork playing, but without any person who is unhappy with the current regime, does not seem to have been raised at all (or at least I have not seen it).
Would Holland be able to cobble a team together?
Liam Hayes mentioned it in the Tribune on Sunday and I couldn't agree with you more Hound - TH should start holding training sessions or trial games, whoever shows up gets a crack at it. It's far from ideal for Cork but I wouldn't be surprised if he had a fairly full deck to play with come the start of the championship.
The players of course have every right not to play - no one has ever held a gun to their heads to lace up a pair of boots to play in the GAA and the notion of using the term 'strike' when boycotting a hobby is absurd.
The players also have every right to voice their opinions - their mistake in my view was that they voiced their opinions and then tried to usurp the decision of the County Board by withdrawing their services.
I hate to be banging about this but the whole thing does my head in - the players are back square one having said they will accept whatever result is taken at next years county convention, for all their hoo haa they have acheived nothing
Quote from: stephenite on February 05, 2008, 12:04:56 PM
Quote from: Hound on February 05, 2008, 11:50:09 AM
All the discussion in the media is about either Cork playing or not playing. The third option of Cork playing, but without any person who is unhappy with the current regime, does not seem to have been raised at all (or at least I have not seen it).
Would Holland be able to cobble a team together?
Liam Hayes mentioned it in the Tribune on Sunday and I couldn't agree with you more Hound - TH should start holding training sessions or trial games, whoever shows up gets a crack at it. It's far from ideal for Cork but I wouldn't be surprised if he had a fairly full deck to play with come the start of the championship.
The players of course have every right not to play - no one has ever held a gun to their heads to lace up a pair of boots to play in the GAA and the notion of using the term 'strike' when boycotting a hobby is absurd.
The players also have every right to voice their opinions - their mistake in my view was that they voiced their opinions and then tried to usurp the decision of the County Board by withdrawing their services.
I hate to be banging about this but the whole thing does my head in - the players are back square one having said they will accept whatever result is taken at next years county convention, for all their hoo haa they have acheived nothing
I agree 100% with that Stephenite.
I advocated a few weeks back that the CB play the under 21 teams - they mightn't win anything but it would put a bit of manners in the striking players.
Quote from: orangeman on February 05, 2008, 12:18:05 PM
I advocated a few weeks back that the CB play the under 21 teams - they mightn't win anything but it would put a bit of manners in the striking players.
and the U-21's would 'cross the picket'?
You can't use the words "strike" and "picket lines" about guys going out to play a bit of football for fun. It's madness.
Still waiting to hear, after several pages and the question being asked several times by seperate posters, who appointed the current "striking" players as the squad?
Its the first time I have heard of intercounty players picking their own team, whilst ignoring the manager!
One way of assuring they get the grant I suppose.
Now lets get one thing very very clear. This is not a strike. Nobody is getting paid. Nobodys job is being put in danger, except maybe Frank Murphys.
It would be the most ridiculous thing ever if there were a "picket line" to prevent players from playing ball in their spare time by players who dont want to play ball in their spare time because of the management set up.
The Cork county board should immediately ask all clubs for a list of adult players who would be willing to play.
I'd say they would fill the team ten times over.
In fairness Hnb, I think the official stance is that the 2007 panels are partaking in this players' strike.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 05, 2008, 12:32:14 PM
In fairness Hnb, I think the official stance is that the 2007 panels are partaking in this players' strike.
Ok, but its a bit presumptious for some of them, many fringe players, to claim they are the "current" squad.
Is there any indication from other players outside of this 2007 team as to whether they would be willing to play or not?
Surely the management team have been sussing this out as a possibility?
Lads I'm amazed that so many posters are portraying the players as the 'bad guys' in all of this. I have to suspect that there is a large amount of anti-GPA/Donal Og/player power bias in all of this. I have made a good few points over the course of this debate, asked a good few questions and they have largely been ignored, as I presume, posters can't address them without weakening their own stance.
Let's get one thing clear as much as some of you might like the CB and Holland to go about forming a new panel the fact is he can't do it. Why? Because no-one will play for him, I know at least 5 of the U21 panel and none of them will tog out for him. Add in the fact that the hurlers will have to find both a new panel and a new coach if Teddy stays on and the task becomes mammoth. But lets say your right and both the football and hurling panels are reformed under Teddy and a new hurling coach, how long do you think supporters will stand by watching their team getting hockeyed, how long will players make the sacrifices for IC when they know they are out of their depth? Where to then for Cork?
The position as articulated by Hound, Stephenite and AZ has been my position all along too. The players have every right to withdraw. The concept of a strike is absurd. TH should pick a team. GMcC should pick a hurling team. If he refuses, they should get another manager. The players are right that the manager should pick his own selectors, but if the democratic process, flawed though it is, decides otherwise, then they either accept it or withdraw gracefully if they can't.
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 12:50:23 PM
Lads I'm amazed that so many posters are portraying the players as the 'bad guys' in all of this. I have to suspect that there is a large amount of anti-GPA/Donal Og/player power bias in all of this.
Rubbish, I oppose the GPA with reference to the grants, but havent had any other problems with them.
Why not accept our opinion rather than presume there is an ulterior motive ::)
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 12:50:23 PM
I have made a good few points over the course of this debate, asked a good few questions and they have largely been ignored, as I presume, posters can't address them without weakening their own stance.
Its been a long thread, but which questions are you waiting for answers on?
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 12:50:23 PM
Let's get one thing clear as much as some of you might like the CB and Holland to go about forming a new panel the fact is he can't do it. Why? Because no-one will play for him, I know at least 5 of the U21 panel and none of them will tog out for him.
Zulu, no offence but if you cant name names, thats not a valid argument.
anyone could say they know 5 lads who would play, doesnt make it true.
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 12:50:23 PM
how long do you think supporters will stand by watching their team getting hockeyed, how long will players make the sacrifices for IC when they know they are out of their depth? Where to then for Cork?
Zulu, this is principles. I'm sure the fans wont enjoy watching their team being hockeyed, but what should they do? Sacrifice the democratic decisions as they are being held to ransom by the players.
If this was in Dublin I would happily cheer the willing players to heavy defeats rather than watch jumped up prima donnas who have held the county board to ransom win well.
Its about respect, not silverware.
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 12:50:23 PM
But lets say your right and both the football and hurling panels are reformed under Teddy and a new hurling coach, how long do you think supporters will stand by watching their team getting hockeyed, how long will players make the sacrifices for IC when they know they are out of their depth? Where to then for Cork?
I'd expect that the players would continue to play, no matter how badly they're doing. Antrim continue to play, don't they? Dissatisfaction among the supporters, membership and players can manifest itself through the democratic process. Let that decide what happens next.
Just on the news now that Padraic Duffy has decided to intervene and he and Kieran Mulvey are en route to Cork.
[Added]. Duffy was interviewed: "Why are you intervening?"
"Well, Cork is a proud county", etc. etc. What kind of nonsense is that? Does it mean he wouldn't bother his arse if it was Leitrim?
Duffy should be telling the players to get back out to playing and sort the mess out later in the year. Do they want Kerry to have another munster title in July without being opposed ?
Duffy shouldn't talk to the players at all.
The GAA's central council should not be involving themselves in Cork's internal mess, as it's none of their business. Instead, their sole concern should be with the completion of the competitions they administer.
Duffy's only involvement should be to tell the Cork County Board of the sanctions that will take place should Cork not adhere to competition rules.
If this wasn't Cork, with all the media coverage that entails, there is no way this would have gone on so long, or have had the Central Council involving themselves, other than saying 'sort it out lads'.
Media coverage gives oxygen to these things.
Zulu, I too am interested in what questions you feel have not been answered, and I'm fecked if I'm going to read through all of this thread :D
My position is
a) County Board decision was mad but
b) It was (apparently) arrived at democratically; therefore
c) The players, if they disagree, should just make themselves unavailable, with none of this trade dispute malarky.
d) The players should then agitate within the association to get the rule reversed next time around.
I also think that this dispute is a smokescreen for trying to overthrow some of the more powerful members of the CCB, but it looks like that is not going to happen, so they've picked Teddy Holland to be the sacrificial lamb.
Did Sean Og repeat his allegations about the County Board on Tubridy?
NO AZ. He just said he'd said enough in the paper and this wasn't the forum to take it any further. Just spoke in general terms about the players' case, their commitment, that it's not about money, etc.
So he was either rapped over the knuckles for going off-message, he was telling porkies in the press, or they've decided their exit strategy from this mess is to get rid of Teddy Holland instead, and go back to square 1, albeit with a scrificial lamb.
Pity it's gone so far. The only thing really at stake so is their pride, and to be seen to get something, even if that something is the resignation of a manager with 0 games played.
Quote from: Hardy on February 05, 2008, 02:36:59 PM
NO AZ. He just said he'd said enough in the paper and this wasn't the forum to take it any further. Just spoke in general terms about the players' case, their commitment, that it's not about money, etc.
Why do they keep talking about commitment? Do they think we don't believe that they are putting in the effort? Or are they saying that they are *more* committed to Cork winning than the County Board?
Quote from: Hardy on February 05, 2008, 02:36:59 PM
NO AZ. He just said he'd said enough in the paper and this wasn't the forum to take it any further. Just spoke in general terms about the players' case, their commitment, that it's not about money, etc.
Sean óg realised that he was responsible for the players mask slipping when he did that interview with Humphries so now he's saying nothing. As Bertie said yesterday, in situations like this, stick to the core issue. What is the core issue? Because Sean og was talking about cold water in the showers and sandwiches after training. What has that got to do with the issue of how selectors are appointed? A more cynical person might think that it smacks of opportunism and a desire for regime-change amongst the players. The selection issue is just something to hang their hat on.
QuoteA more cynical person might think that it smacks of opportunism and a desire for regime-change amongst the players. The selection issue is just something to hang their hat on.
Are you calling me cynical?? Is that personal abuse? :D
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 05, 2008, 02:04:28 PM
My position is
a) County Board decision was mad but
b) It was (apparently) arrived at democratically; therefore
c) The players, if they disagree, should just make themselves unavailable, with none of this trade dispute malarky.
d) The players should then agitate within the association to get the rule reversed next time around.
There is certainly doubt about (b). But I believe the fairest way to present it would be:
b) It was ratified democratically
Which in the end amounts to the same thing I suppose.
Re: Cork players threaten strike over selectors issue
After 32 pages of debate on this subject, it has dawned on me that this thread has been incorrectly titled. Cork players ARE on strike - not threatening to strike ! ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
No Orangeman its not correctly titled.
Cork players dont play over selectors issues.
Strike me hole, its not a proper strike no matter how much Donal óg would like to think himself a professional.
Strikes involved people who are "employed"
But maybe they are employed - sure they're getting plenty of money out of playing for Cork - I thought this strike was about more money / improved conditions ?? :D :D ;) ;) ;) ;D ;D
QuoteRubbish, I oppose the GPA with reference to the grants, but havent had any other problems with them.
Why not accept our opinion rather than presume there is an ulterior motive
I refered to 'a number of posters' so unless you think you speak for everyone on the board, the above point is irrelevant.
QuoteZulu, no offence but if you cant name names, thats not a valid argument.
anyone could say they know 5 lads who would play, doesnt make it true.
HHNB there is little point in me discussing anything with you anymore if you think I'd lie about something to support my argument.
QuoteZulu, this is principles. I'm sure the fans wont enjoy watching their team being hockeyed, but what should they do? Sacrifice the democratic decisions as they are being held to ransom by the players.
If this was in Dublin I would happily cheer the willing players to heavy defeats rather than watch jumped up prima donnas who have held the county board to ransom win well.
Its about respect, not silverware.
I agree it is about respect, something sadly lacking from the county board.
QuoteI'd expect that the players would continue to play, no matter how badly they're doing. Antrim continue to play, don't they? Dissatisfaction among the supporters, membership and players can manifest itself through the democratic process. Let that decide what happens next.
Yes Hardy, Antrim do continue to play but those lads are amongst the best players in their county. The lads representing Cork would be from the 4th or 5th rung of the ladder at least. Not only do the best players not want to break ranks with the current IC players but they also won't play for a CB selected backroom team.
QuoteZulu, I too am interested in what questions you feel have not been answered, and I'm fecked if I'm going to read through all of this thread
My position is
a) County Board decision was mad but
b) It was (apparently) arrived at democratically; therefore
c) The players, if they disagree, should just make themselves unavailable, with none of this trade dispute malarky.
d) The players should then agitate within the association to get the rule reversed next time around.
I also think that this dispute is a smokescreen for trying to overthrow some of the more powerful members of the CCB, but it looks like that is not going to happen, so they've picked Teddy Holland to be the sacrificial lamb.
I've forgotten some of them by now AZ and I'm not willing to back through the posts either!
It is my opinion that the decision wasn't democratic. The first vote certainly wasn't and the second one was at least coloured by the players statement of intent. Futhermore I've been told that a number of clubs didn't debate the issue prior to the second vote. Now maybe some of those who are arguing that the vote was democratic and should therefore be adhered to by the players, can tell me why a decision that 99.999999% of people think is wrong was voted in?
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 05:56:23 PM
QuoteRubbish, I oppose the GPA with reference to the grants, but havent had any other problems with them.
Why not accept our opinion rather than presume there is an ulterior motive
I refered to 'a number of posters' so unless you think you speak for everyone on the board, the above point is irrelevant.
I was clearly one of the posters you were referring to so made my rebuttal. Do I need to speak for everyone to reply to accusations you make at a group that includes me?
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 05:56:23 PM
QuoteZulu, no offence but if you cant name names, thats not a valid argument.
anyone could say they know 5 lads who would play, doesnt make it true.
HHNB there is little point in me discussing anything with you anymore if you think I'd lie about something to support my argument.
I didnt suggest you were telling lies. Just making the point that statements like that with no back up are naturally going to be viewed with skepticism.
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 05:56:23 PM
I've forgotten some of them by now AZ and I'm not willing to back through the posts either!
Seriously Zulu, you made a point that people on here werent answering your questions in a way that would indicate our "silence" proved you right.
2 people have asked what questions werent answered and you wont tell us now?
Come on ::)
tell me why a decision that 99.999999% of people think is wrong was voted in?
I simply can't believe you've come out with this !!!!!!! Do you really believe this ????? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quotetell me why a decision that 99.999999% of people think is wrong was voted in?
OM why did you put that in yellow I could barely read it. And yeah I do believe it, do you not think that most people think the decision to revert to CB selected backroom teams is supported by very few.
QuoteI was clearly one of the posters you were referring to so made my rebuttal. Do I need to speak for everyone to reply to accusations you make at a group that includes me?
I didn't have particular posters in mind HHNB but I believe that many lads see the GPA in any player dispute and it clouds their judgement. You also said "Why not accept our opinion rather than presume there is an ulterior motive" which suggested that you spoke for everyone. You may not be influenced by your view of the GPA but I think some lads are and you can't be sure they are not.
QuoteI didnt suggest you were telling lies. Just making the point that statements like that with no back up are naturally going to be viewed with skepticism.
In fairness HHNB you did suggest that I could, at least, be lying. If we can't afford each other the benefit of the doubt when we make simple claims like my one then we have little business discussing anything. I do know these lads as I know some of the Senior panel, if you want to discuss this issue with me you'll have to accept that.
QuoteSeriously Zulu, you made a point that people on here werent answering your questions in a way that would indicate our "silence" proved you right.
2 people have asked what questions werent answered and you wont tell us now?
Come on
This debate has been going on over a number of weeks if not months, I can't remember each situation I painted or question I posed, why don't you go back through the posts and address them if you come across them. Oh and by the way I finished my last post with a question.......which you didn't answer.
I didnt answer the question as you made that figure up, it didnt merit comment.
Now you made a point about questions not being answered, in a smug manner as if we couldnt answer them.
Once again I will ask, what questions do you want answered?
The old excuse of "I cant be bothered going back through them" wont wash when you come out with statements like that!
Quote from: orangeman on February 05, 2008, 06:49:34 PM
tell me why a decision that 99.999999% of people think is wrong was voted in?
I simply can't believe you've come out with this !!!!!!! Do you really believe this ????? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Zulu just let spew away in there own innocence. Anyone from outside Cork wouldn't have a clue about the subtlys invovled here. Its a pity this internal issue has been hijacked and distorted by the anti-GPA crowd to suit their own needs.
QuoteI didnt answer the question as you made that figure up, it didnt merit comment.
I can't think of one person on this discussion board that agrees with the new system, in fact Waterford footballers are the only team in the country who use this system. So since it is safe to say that the vast majority of people don't agree with the new system maybe you can stop avoiding the question and simply answer it.
QuoteNow you made a point about questions not being answered, in a smug manner as if we couldnt answer them.
Once again I will ask, what questions do you want answered?
The old excuse of "I cant be bothered going back through them" wont wash when you come out with statements like that!
Jesue wept, 'smug manner' give me a break, now I've posted questions and made some points that weren't addressed if you want to answer them you find them.
Zulu - so if the vote were to be taken again tonight would the clubs stand by their original vote or not ??
Why did Na Piarsaigh write to the county board distancing themselves from Sean Og's comments ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
QuoteWhy did Na Piarsaigh write to the county board distancing themselves from Sean Og's comments ??
I'm not sure why they did that OM as Sean Og never even suggested his views represented those of his club.
QuoteZulu - so if the vote were to be taken again tonight would the clubs stand by their original vote or not ??
IMO they probably would but the situation has got to the point that many aren't thinking straight anymore (on both sides). Everyone is dug in now and no-one is willing to budge. However i think if you asked clubs do they think that the CB should pick the county managers selectors then I'd say they would say no. It has got very strange down in Cork, only the resignation of Teddy Holland can save the situation now IMO.
Quote from: Zulu on February 05, 2008, 07:30:25 PM
QuoteI didnt answer the question as you made that figure up, it didnt merit comment.
I can't think of one person on this discussion board that agrees with the new system, in fact Waterford footballers are the only team in the country who use this system. So since it is safe to say that the vast majority of people don't agree with the new system maybe you can stop avoiding the question and simply answer it.
QuoteNow you made a point about questions not being answered, in a smug manner as if we couldnt answer them.
Once again I will ask, what questions do you want answered?
The old excuse of "I cant be bothered going back through them" wont wash when you come out with statements like that!
Jesue wept, 'smug manner' give me a break, now I've posted questions and made some points that weren't addressed if you want to answer them you find them.
Also Zulu, the wiseness or otherwise of the decision is not at question here. If you were to poll the posters on here, you may not get your 99.9999 recurring % but I'm sure you'd have a comfortable majority. I'd certainly vote against it.
However, you are insinuating that somehow that means the decision in Cork was not democratic. We can't assume that, and I wouldn't presume to speak for anybody down there as to why they voted they way they did. There is obviously a major problem down there, and none of us know the various factors for sure. All we can ask is 'Did the clubs and delegates vote for this change in a correct manner.' I haven't heard anyone say, to my satisfaction, that procedures were not followed correctly.
Therefore, the CB has the mandate to make this change. If the players don't like it, they need to lobby and get it changed next year, and refuse to accept the call up if they can't play under this regime. They are perfectly entitled to do that.
They have, instead, created a militant, 'strike' atmosphere, demanding all sorts of people to resign, throwing other allegations in to muddy the waters, and are, in essence, operating outside of the democratic structures in place.
I will say this again, no matter how stupid a decision is, if the majority of people want it, for whatever reason, then the decision is carried and enforced. That's the price of democracy.
If the argument is that the CB in cork is NOT ruled by democracy, but by some sort of iron fisted character with bad hair, then stop dancing about the issue and challenge him. Bring it out into the open so we can all poke at it, because at the moment, as far as we know, the players are totally in the wrong in the way they are carrying on, even if most people would agree with their opinion of the new rule.
QuoteIt has got very strange down in Cork, only the resignation of Teddy Holland can save the situation now IMO.
And that, mentioned by a good few people involved as well as your good self, is the reason why I think this has been a badly chosen battle by the players, over something which only touches on the periphery of the real issues and personality clashes down there.
How in the name of God can the players, who went 'on strike' over the CB regaining control over the appointment of selectors, now say that they will go back to play under that very self same system as long as the manager Teddy Holland resigns?
Effectively, they are now saying the strike is because Teddy Holland is manager? What sort of rámeis is that?
I agree that the only way this will be solved is if Holland resigns, because I think the GAA are afraid of facing down Cork and the Cork GAA are afraid of facing down the players. The players need an escape valve to save face, and Holland is it. I don't know the man from Adam, and I have no idea of his personality, but I feel a bit sorry for him on the face of it.
QuoteAlso Zulu, the wiseness or otherwise of the decision is not at question here. If you were to poll the posters on here, you may not get your 99.9999 recurring % but I'm sure you'd have a comfortable majority. I'd certainly vote against it.
I'd say it would be very close to that 99.9...% figure AZ and that has to raise questions as to validity of the vote IMO.
QuoteHowever, you are insinuating that somehow that means the decision in Cork was not democratic. We can't assume that, and I wouldn't presume to speak for anybody down there as to why they voted they way they did. There is obviously a major problem down there, and none of us know the various factors for sure. All we can ask is 'Did the clubs and delegates vote for this change in a correct manner.' I haven't heard anyone say, to my satisfaction, that procedures were not followed correctly.
Democracy has to be conducted in a proper manner for it to hold any relevance. The first vote certainly wasn't democratic, the second is debateable in my mind. I've been told that some clubs never debated the issue at all, if it was debated, was it debated properly, were both sides put to club members? I don't believe they were.
QuoteI will say this again, no matter how stupid a decision is, if the majority of people want it, for whatever reason, then the decision is carried and enforced. That's the price of democracy.
Maybe so AZ but players also have the right to walk away from set up that they believe to be flawed. And if I were a player and the CB ignited this figght and got support from the clubs I'd walk away too. The players are not preventing anypne from playing for Cork, they just won't do it themselves.
QuoteHow in the name of God can the players, who went 'on strike' over the CB regaining control over the appointment of selectors, now say that they will go back to play under that very self same system as long as the manager Teddy Holland resigns
Because Teddy took the job and accepted his backroom staff after the players asked no-one to do so until the issues between themselves and the CB were sorted. He wasn't caught in the cross fire, he went out of his way to walk into the middle of it and is now willing to stay there.
This is going to get messy with all the quotes :D
QuoteQuote
Also Zulu, the wiseness or otherwise of the decision is not at question here. If you were to poll the posters on here, you may not get your 99.9999 recurring % but I'm sure you'd have a comfortable majority. I'd certainly vote against it.
I'd say it would be very close to that 99.9...% figure AZ and that has to raise questions as to validity of the vote IMO.
I disagree. It raises questions as to *why* the vote went that way, not at all as to the process of the vote. That's a different matter entirely.
Quote
Quote
However, you are insinuating that somehow that means the decision in Cork was not democratic. We can't assume that, and I wouldn't presume to speak for anybody down there as to why they voted they way they did. There is obviously a major problem down there, and none of us know the various factors for sure. All we can ask is 'Did the clubs and delegates vote for this change in a correct manner.' I haven't heard anyone say, to my satisfaction, that procedures were not followed correctly.
Democracy has to be conducted in a proper manner for it to hold any relevance. The first vote certainly wasn't democratic, the second is debateable in my mind. I've been told that some clubs never debated the issue at all, if it was debated, was it debated properly, were both sides put to club members? I don't believe they were.
I agree democracy has to be seen to be obeyed. In what way was democracy not followed? If there was a process not followed, then that's a different issue entirely, and I would be willing to say that the county board is wrong. If however, all rules and regulations were followed, then I stand by my original point. So what rules were broken? (Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to be clear about what happened or didn't happen.
Quote
Quote
I will say this again, no matter how stupid a decision is, if the majority of people want it, for whatever reason, then the decision is carried and enforced. That's the price of democracy.
Maybe so AZ but players also have the right to walk away from set up that they believe to be flawed. And if I were a player and the CB ignited this figght and got support from the clubs I'd walk away too. The players are not preventing anypne from playing for Cork, they just won't do it themselves.
Agree entirely, and that's why i posted this..
QuoteIf the players don't like it, they need to lobby and get it changed next year, and refuse to accept the call up if they can't play under this regime. They are perfectly entitled to do that.
But that's not quite what they've done, is it? They've done this..
QuoteThey have, instead, created a militant, 'strike' atmosphere, demanding all sorts of people to resign, throwing other allegations in to muddy the waters, and are, in essence, operating outside of the democratic structures in place.
All these quotes are killing me :D
QuoteQuote
How in the name of God can the players, who went 'on strike' over the CB regaining control over the appointment of selectors, now say that they will go back to play under that very self same system as long as the manager Teddy Holland resigns
Because Teddy took the job and accepted his backroom staff after the players asked no-one to do so until the issues between themselves and the CB were sorted. He wasn't caught in the cross fire, he went out of his way to walk into the middle of it and is now willing to stay there.
Fair enough, Teddy may have jumped the gun, and they see him as the enemy. I still think it's a get out clause, after all they will still be playing under the system they protested initially.
The GAA should just throw cork out of all competitions this year
Same old bullshit with them every year, striking and threatening to strike
OTF
Ok AZ you asked in what way was democracy not followed, well the first vote was sprung on delegates without any prior warning or discussion. Delegates voted on this one without any mandate from their clubs, so this vote was hardly democratic, was it? The second vote was held against the backdrop of the players statement and hardened delegates position which was already anti-IC to a large degree. In fairness much of what went on in each club with respect to the second vote is pure speculation but I have been told (I know I know!) that a number of clubs didn't debate this issue, also whether delegates voted as mandated has to be questioned, it wouldn't be the first time a delegate didn't.
Your probably right AZ the democratic process was followed to a large degree for the second vote but not to the level where the votes of delegates can be taken to represent the views of all Cork GAA members IMO. As such I don't believe that we can call the votes truly democratic.
I'm not sure the players ever called a strike as such but you have to ask questions of the CB when they behave in a manner that results in not only the current IC squads not playing but also many others unwilling to take their place.
To sum up AZ, it is my position that CB's and club delegates are in a position of power and with that comes a responsibility to do right by the GAA in Cork. They have failed in this regard, and while you won't be able to pick apart FM when it comes to GAA procedure, for me following the GAA rule book isn't a decisive argument if you go against the core values of the association. Gross abuse of power gives people justification to work outside those structures. I'm on the side of those who want the best for the GAA in Cork not those who might defend the rule book.
Its a pity the Cork players didn't strike before last years championship .... then we might have had a descent All=Ireland Football Final !!!!!
I know Teddy Holland must be a proud man, but surely as somebody involved in the Cork scene he is not so beholden to the County Board that he wouldn't resign. Nobody will play for him so just take the first step. You can only imagine what kind of turmoil he is living with at the moment between pressure from all sides, and probalby personal abuse of himself and his family.
QuoteTo sum up AZ, it is my position that CB's and club delegates are in a position of power and with that comes a responsibility to do right by the GAA in Cork. They have failed in this regard, and while you won't be able to pick apart FM when it comes to GAA procedure, for me following the GAA rule book isn't a decisive argument if you go against the core values of the association. Gross abuse of power gives people justification to work outside those structures. I'm on the side of those who want the best for the GAA in Cork not those who might defend the rule book.
So, to sum it up even more succinctly, you believe that the Cork County Board is actively trying to harm the GAA in Cork. (i.e. Not want the best for the GAA in Cork)?
That's a fairly serious allegation, and if that is the players' position, then let them come out and say that, and stop arseboxing (copyright T. Lyons) around the issue.
Zulu, you have fought a good campaign here for your point of view and respect for that. But I wouldn't be choosing "the core values of the association" as a battleground, if I were you and comparing the performance of the players versus the county board delegates, the executive or the clubs on that score. The players come a poor fourth in that one.
Also, of course there are doubts about the democratic purity of the two votes on the issue. When was a democratic exercise ever perfectly executed, in any sphere? But this process is the best we have to be going on with. I don't think the players can win the debate with a moral argument that goes "the democratic system was flawed, so we've decided to go unilateral, abandon democracy and force our own agenda through".
Surely the proper procedure is to lobby the issue onto the CB agenda again and have another vote, with proper debate and mandating at club level. I wonder why they don't try that. How do you think it would go?
I don't have time to read through what has been said on here but will give you my understanding of what has happened. It may have been state already so forgive me. As Zulu said the first vote was basically sprung on the delegates to the county board without much time for them to debate it at club level. My own club down here did not debate the mtion but instead the chairman sent out a text to all the relevant commitee members as he was not able to get a meeting convened in time. he voted as per the replies.
Anecdotal evidence suggests similar things happened at other clubs. There are also stories of club delegates standing up and backing Frank Murphy against the wihes of their club commitee and I know of at least two club delegates who openly voted contrary to their clubs wishes. I wouldn't go as far to say the delegates are trying to harm the GAA in Cork but I would say that many of thm refuse to go in opposition to Frank Murphy and their motivation is not necessarily for the beneft of the organisation. Nests and feathers!
it is split pretty badly, but the players have a lot of support. People may not agree with the threat of strike action, but they agree that the county board, and Frank Murphy in particular, have too much power. The one thing that really strikes me about the whole thing is that what started out as a dispute over Billy Morgan being sacked essentially Holland being shuffled in through the back alley hasbeen taken on as a cause celebre by hurling men and i have not heard much from footballers in recent weeks. Draw your own conclusions to that.
In fairness to Zulu Hardy, he seems to indicate (correct me if I'm wrong Zulu) that the Cork County Board are basically flouting democracy and acting in their own self interests rather than in order to benefit Cork.
If he truly believes that, and if the players believe that, then there wouldn't be much point in pursuing the democratic agenda.
Of course, if that *is* the case, then that is the issue that the players should be on strike about, not this red herring.
I respect Zulu's opinion, and he articulates it well, but I cannot countenance that a whole county board would actively be trying to sabotage their success on the playing field because of a power trip. I have to believe that the county board at least believes it is acting in the greater good.
If they aren't, then lets get Sean Óg, Donal Óg, Frank Murphy and others into a debate about that. That would be shocking.
AZ, I think the point is that the CCB are not actively trying to sabotage Cork's chances because of a power trip, but they are effectively sabotaging Cork's chances because of a power trip.
BTW, I'd like to echo Hardy's comments above, that for a very contentious issue, this has largely been a well discussed and reasoned and interesting debate on both sides and with no resorting to stupid name calling just because you disagee with someone's opinion.
Apart from one thick hoor!!
Good man BC1, I was wondering when you would come in here.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 06, 2008, 09:00:29 AM
I don't have time to read through what has been said on here but will give you my understanding of what has happened. It may have been state already so forgive me. As Zulu said the first vote was basically sprung on the delegates to the county board without much time for them to debate it at club level. My own club down here did not debate the mtion but instead the chairman sent out a text to all the relevant commitee members as he was not able to get a meeting convened in time. he voted as per the replies.
Anecdotal evidence suggests similar things happened at other clubs.
That is far from perfect, but at least it seems as if there was some level of feedback. Fairly poor though.
Quote
There are also stories of club delegates standing up and backing Frank Murphy against the wihes of their club commitee and I know of at least two club delegates who openly voted contrary to their clubs wishes.
That is very serious, and those club delegates should be name and shamed. No question about it.
Quote
I wouldn't go as far to say the delegates are trying to harm the GAA in Cork but I would say that many of thm refuse to go in opposition to Frank Murphy and their motivation is not necessarily for the beneft of the organisation. Nests and feathers!
Again, very serious and totally contrary to democratic principles.
Quote
it is split pretty badly, but the players have a lot of support. People may not agree with the threat of strike action, but they agree that the county board, and Frank Murphy in particular, have too much power. The one thing that really strikes me about the whole thing is that what started out as a dispute over Billy Morgan being sacked essentially Holland being shuffled in through the back alley hasbeen taken on as a cause celebre by hurling men and i have not heard much from footballers in recent weeks. Draw your own conclusions to that.
If that is the real issue (which I have said from Day 1), then lets take that out in the open, and talk about it, sans bovine excretion. The players are looking for a change of regime, and if there is sufficient grounds for it, then lets hear it. As I said earlier on, I imagine that the selectors issue has become a cause celebré with the hurlers, because they know that the real issue is more ingrained, and they are the ones with the most experience, and highest profile.
I think they have approached this all wrong, and should have let loose if they feel the Cork GAA is being run into the ground. But they should have published a list of their grievances and made them public. That may have led to a groundswell of support, similar to the 2002 'strike'. Instead we are left with this phoney war.
Quote from: Hound on February 06, 2008, 09:12:32 AM
AZ, I think the point is that the CCB are not actively trying to sabotage Cork's chances because of a power trip, but they are effectively sabotaging Cork's chances because of a power trip.
BTW, I'd like to echo Hardy's comments above, that for a very contentious issue, this has largely been a well discussed and reasoned and interesting debate on both sides and with no resorting to stupid name calling just because you disagee with someone's opinion.
Apart from one thick hoor!!
I've said before that I think this decision is certainly strange at least. However, I also said that regardless of it's strangeness, we do not know all the other factors involved, and if the democratic process was followed in making the decision, then the players either abide by the decision, or simply drop off the panel. They've done much more than that.
Now, based on what Zulu and BC1 are saying, it appears that, as I've suspected, the real issue is not this decision in isolation, but the entire makeup and influences of the county board down there. There are anecdotal tales of people voting against their mandate etc. That is a very serious issue, and that is what should be debated. The root cause. Namely is democracy being subverted in Cork, because a few, or even one man, is so powerful that he can bend the county board to his will at a moment's notice, and make them vote with him, no matter what their clubs say.
If that is the case, then there is truly something rotten in the state of Denmark, but that's a much larger and more pressing issue than who picks selectors. That's what the players should be railing against, openly.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 06, 2008, 09:17:31 AM
Namely is democracy being subverted in Cork, because a few, or even one man, is so powerful that he can bend the county board to his will at a moment's notice, and make them vote with him, no matter what their clubs say?
Of course it is!
The fact that he secured 100% of the vote on a contentious issue tells you that its a dictatorship dressed up as a democrarcy.
Well then, that's the real issue isn't it? If there is proof of that, then get it out there (I'm talking about the players here). They'd have nearly 100% support if they could prove that.
According to the radio this morning, the nights discussions have not resulted in an agreement. A comprehensive document has been drawn up which indicates that there are qiute a number of issues. The report also said that there was substantial movement on both sides.
Where to from here? The only hope is that both sides review this document and have a rethink.
Do I take it that this weekend's hurling game is off?
QuoteA comprehensive document has been drawn up which indicates that there are qiute a number of issues.
I'm not surprised. I can only see one outcome, and that is Teddy Holland stepping down, and the players claiming that as a victory.
Teddy will HAVE to stop down, no doubt about it - but let's just for one minute think of the damage that will have been caused to the entire association because the players insisted on his removal.
What is to stop another panel of players whether it be a county or club team telling their club / CB that they don't like the manager and that they're not playing for him and that he has to be removed - bear in mind that Teddy Holland was a vlounteer to the job. He wasn't getting a grant or anything else. Same with the bulk of the managers in clubs up and down the country, from underage to senior level - volunteers.
Just think about the fall out there's going to be when Holland eventually resigns.
Quote from: orangeman on February 06, 2008, 11:07:36 AM
Teddy will HAVE to stop down, no doubt about it - but let's just for one minute think of the damage that will have been caused to the entire association because the players insisted on his removal.
What is to stop another panel of players whether it be a county or club team telling their club / CB that they don't like the manager and that they're not playing for him and that he has to be removed - bear in mind that Teddy Holland was a vlounteer to the job. He wasn't getting a grant or anything else. Same with the bulk of the managers in clubs up and down the country, from underage to senior level - volunteers.
Just think about the fall out there's going to be when Holland eventually resigns.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, and I think it's a fairly hollow 'victory' given that the indications are that they will be playing under the same system anyway. It's a face saving exercise by the players' ringleaders and I am dreading their news conferences afterwards as they spin this.
However, if there are real problems down there, I would be in favour of getting them sorted out. That's the real issue.
QuoteSo, to sum it up even more succinctly, you believe that the Cork County Board is actively trying to harm the GAA in Cork. (i.e. Not want the best for the GAA in Cork)?
That's a fairly serious allegation, and if that is the players' position, then let them come out and say that, and stop arseboxing (copyright T. Lyons) around the issue.
Not quite AZ, but they are definately trying to put manners on the Senior Inter county panels, the hurlers in particular.
QuoteZulu, you have fought a good campaign here for your point of view and respect for that. But I wouldn't be choosing "the core values of the association" as a battleground, if I were you and comparing the performance of the players versus the county board delegates, the executive or the clubs on that score. The players come a poor fourth in that one.
Also, of course there are doubts about the democratic purity of the two votes on the issue. When was a democratic exercise ever perfectly executed, in any sphere? But this process is the best we have to be going on with. I don't think the players can win the debate with a moral argument that goes "the democratic system was flawed, so we've decided to go unilateral, abandon democracy and force our own agenda through".
Surely the proper procedure is to lobby the issue onto the CB agenda again and have another vote, with proper debate and mandating at club level. I wonder why they don't try that. How do you think it would go?
Hardy, I truely believe that the system is so heavily weighted against the players as to make this choice impossible. In fairness to the players they are willing to let the whole thing go through the democratic process next year and they will abide by that decision but not this year. When things settle down and everyone has a chance to have their say I'd be confident that clubs will support the players.
QuoteNamely is democracy being subverted in Cork, because a few, or even one man, is so powerful that he can bend the county board to his will at a moment's notice, and make them vote with him, no matter what their clubs say?
Well then, that's the real issue isn't it? If there is proof of that, then get it out there (I'm talking about the players here). They'd have nearly 100% support if they could prove that.
That is probably the core issue alright AZ but it is very difficult for the players to prove this. The CB spent €1.3 million on IC teams last year (I think) and FM has given his life to the GAA and is extremely powerful in the GAA, so they could lose that battle if they fought it on those grounds. I think the players would be crucified if they went after the CB as this would portrayed as an attack on the GAA itself and uppity players wanting to run everything. I also disagree that TH is a cause celebre, the footballers can't work with him because of what he did, it is they who are insisting he resigns not the hurlers. Why they (the footballers) are taking a backseat in all of this I don't know, but it is making it look like a hurlers/Donal Og/GPA v CCB/FM/GAA issue.
Why they (the footballers) are taking a backseat in all of this I don't know, but it is making it look like a hurlers/Donal Og/GPA v CCB/FM/GAA issue.
The least said by the footballers will be easiest mended - it is noteworthy that the CB have been very silent on the whole isue as well - it's only the hurlers especially Donal Og and Sean Og who are making idiots of themselves.
This notion that Frank Murphy is an amalgamation of Stalin, Hitler & Rasputin has really gone too far. Is he the only man in Cork? If he can bend the County Board to his every whim why stop there. Why does he not seek to control the entire Association - why not the country!!
If the County Board are now beaten on this and Teddy resigns who then controls the GAA in Cork. Can the Association really allow a situation in which a panel of 60 playuers can dictate to the County Board who their manager shall be and if they can why will it stop there. What will be next? Will the panel then have the power to decide who drops off the panel and who takes there place? Training days hours and location? Club games postponement? Travel allowances? Challenge matchs? Suspensions?
Agreed Zoyler - couldn't agree more !
QuoteIf the County Board are now beaten on this and Teddy resigns who then controls the GAA in Cork. Can the Association really allow a situation in which a panel of 60 playuers can dictate to the County Board who their manager shall be and if they can why will it stop there. What will be next? Will the panel then have the power to decide who drops off the panel and who takes there place? Training days hours and location? Club games postponement? Travel allowances? Challenge matchs? Suspensions?
Lads that's just the give them an inch and they'll take a mile attitude. It has been clearly stated by the players and repeated numerous times here that the players don't want to pick the manager. They want the CB to do so, but allow their appointment to pick his own selectors. If you can't see why the players would have a problem with Holland at this stage then there is little more to say. There is a much bigger issue at play here, I thought that we all accepted that, but the issue of Holland as manager is also a real one and again I thought we had cleared that up too.
Tell me why the players should or how the players could play under Teddy Holland? Tell me how this pans out if the CB and Teddy hold tough?
There are two issues around Teddy Holland that the players take issue with that I see.
Firstly, the issue over him being allowed to pick his selectors. This is a central issue to why the impasse started. This is the problem that the players have with the CB and how they dealt with the whole sacking of Morgan.
Secondly, and this relates to Holland himself, is in regards to actually his sentiments after being offered the job. Initially when he took the job he openly stated that he was doing so on the grounds that he had control of his selectors. When he took the job it became apparent that that was not the case. If he was so adament that he was taking it on those terms tehn he should have come out and stated that he was not taking it under these terms. This is what a number of other candidates, ie Leahy, privately stated as their reason for stepping back from the selection process. Holland on the other hand has stayed publicly quiet about the issue to an extent but has said that he has been waiting for thsi job for a few years and is not giving up his shot at the big time. The players do not respect him and will not play for him because of this apparent volte face and thsi si teh kernal of what needs to be sorted. The CB, and Murphy in particular, are using him to drag back powers that were lost to them a few years back and he is being dangled as the sacrificial puppet. As far as thsi job is concerned he is a dead man walking as the only outcome I can see is that the players will acquiecse to the CB demand for input in selectors on the basis that Holland is roaded.
QuoteAs far as thsi job is concerned he is a dead man walking as the only outcome I can see is that the players will acquiecse to the CB demand for input in selectors on the basis that Holland is roaded.
I can't see any other outcome. The players will claim a victory because Holland got his marching orders, while the County Board will still retain control of the selectors for this year.
It's a phoney war, and everyone involved is dancing around the real issue. Is Frank Murphy really that powerful. Are GAA men in Cork quivering at the thought of opposing him? It's surreal.
if that is the players' position, then let them come out and say that, and stop arseboxing (copyright T. Lyons) around the issue.
This has to be the best speak on this thread so far - fair play to you AZ ! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
RTE news at one had Plastic Sheeting - covering Cork - (Paschal Sheehy) speculating that the proposal agreed this morning and to be put to the players by their representatives tonight involves a substantial say for the players in the selection of manager and selectors, in return for which they accept Teddy Holland. He says this represents a victory for the players.
No matter what the outcome is Hardy, other than the players getting nothing, they will claim it as a victory. In fairness if Sheehy is right, then this is a more substantial victory for them than Holland quitting and the County board retaining more control in selectors, especially for the hurlers.
Anyway, as I've said, this is all just blowing smoke now, based on the other grievances.
That's some climbdown ( if in fact this is the agreement ) !!
By whom orangeman?
By the players who vowed they wouldn't play under him !
Or by the county board who said they would retain control of selectorial appointments?
I would see it as a major climb down by the players - how do they face Holland now ? Sean Og and Donal Og have made some idiots out of themselves !
Quote from: orangeman on February 06, 2008, 04:49:33 PM
I would see it as a major climb down by the players - how do they face Holland now ? Sean Og and Donal Og have made some idiots out of themselves !
What odds on Holland resigning before the Championship is over anyway? A bad league campaign, with players not playing for him, or a humiliating loss to Limerick in the MSFC?
If Holland stays on the players will look like tulips. Hopefully now though they will stop tilting at windmills and clogging up the fixture list.
Orangeman if you knew something about Cork GAA I might take your comments about Donal Og and Sean Og seriously, the reality is that the vast majority of the ordinary GAA supporters in the county back the players. I agree Sean Og didn't do himself any favours with some of his comments but to say the man made an idiot of himself is a bit much.
FM has been a great servant to the GAA but he is a control freak and there have been stories for years about Frank actually giving the team talk in the Cork dressing room before games even if he wasn't a selector. The whole crux of the issue is that the CB want to win back what they beleive to be a loss of their power in the aftermath of the 2002 strike. They started the ball rolling last year by refusing to even interview anyone from John Allen/donal O'grady's backroom team for the hurling job even though this back room staff had helped guide Cork to four all Ireland finals in a row.
Then this year we had the saga of the selctors which was a deliberate ploy to get rid of Billy Morgan and set things up for next year on the hurling side. they didn't expect the reaction from the hurlers as Gerald is in situ for another year and they beleived that the footballers would be isolated and easier dealt with as the GAA public in Cork are generally more focussed on hurling than football.
Holland took the job in full knoweldge that at least four other people had turned down the job given the strings attached and the fact that the players had publicly voiced their concern regarding the selectors issue. Holland was totally opportunistic in his approach to this and that is why the players have a signfificant issue with him, I think the footballers will have a lot bigger issue with him staying than the hurlers as any say in selectors etc in the future will immediately benefit the hurlers in terms of next year when Gerald is up for re-election while the fact that he is in place for 2008 means the current issue with picking selectors won't affect the hurlers.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 06, 2008, 04:25:04 PM
Or by the county board who said they would retain control of selectorial appointments?
If the compromise suggested above is true, the players have had their arses handed to them. The County Board's representatives will nod politely while the players representatives outline who they think would be acceptable as a selector. One of them is bound to be acceptable to the County Board who will then trumpet his appointment as evidence of their good faith, thus holding on to Teddy and allowing them to appoint the remainder with no reference to the players wishes. A straight sets win for the County Board, although one set did go to a tiebreak
good post pull- nice to see a bit of balance- it would be a different story for some of the above if this was happenning in their own county- but once it's someone's else's it's easy to blast the players out of it. Their decision to go on strike was silly and their PR was poor but i agree with their issues. They simply want to help their counties win all-irelands not participate in them to lose like under this proposed arrangement.
Simply withdraw and let them stew in their own shit as they get hammered then this time 12 months Frank won't have a blade of hair left and this scenario of county boards handpicking spies on county selection panels will never happen again. Had they simply withdrawn rather than striking they would have won the PR battle.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 06, 2008, 03:07:17 PM
No matter what the outcome is Hardy, other than the players getting nothing, they will claim it as a victory. In fairness if Sheehy is right, then this is a more substantial victory for them than Holland quitting and the County board retaining more control in selectors, especially for the hurlers.
Anyway, as I've said, this is all just blowing smoke now, based on the other grievances.
Ye're getting the jist of it now Az. Like all great rows, this one's been a long time brewing and it all comes down to the unhealthy degree of power one man has in cork. The comparison to J Edgar Hoover I highlighted in thon article a few pages back was spot on imo. I make no apology for stealing the post http://www.anfearrua.com/db.asp?a=topicdisplay&tid=435641&xpos=735 (http://www.anfearrua.com/db.asp?a=topicdisplay&tid=435641&xpos=735) below verbatim from
corkoniense on AFR as it sums up the situation in as near a nutshell as you can get. I have highlighted a wee history lesson in the middle of the post which is very illuminating. I'd like to see a poster from cork pick holes in it.
QuoteMy God this thread has degenerated into farce. Some pro-player posters have now gone to argue that pay-for-play is a good thing, thus justifying the paranoid suspicions of pro-ccb posters that the whole issue is a smokescreen for professionalism. Other posters have claimed to have done more or know more about the GAA than others, as if there was a hierarchy in valid opinion. This post will try to call it as I see it, and I will not insult anybody on this site nor will I respond to any insults.
Ye all know I am behind the players on this one. The issue was originally about the right of a manager to pick his own select ors, but following a plea by the players for no potential manager to take the job until the issue was resolved, the board went ahead and appointed teddy holland as manager. At that moment Teddy forfeited the trust of the players, and effectively gave them two fingers. He lost the dressingroom before a ball was kicked and now he has no dressingroom.
The ostensible reason for the change was that clubs were frustrated by the inability to play games due to intercounty players` commitments. Hence when the players reacted OTT, they were portrayed as elitists with a GPA agenda etc. I cannot answer for the GPA, but the fact that Donal Og Cusack trains his own small club and reached a couple of county finals doing so suggests this arch fiend of the GPA actually gives a damn about his club. Remember the board fired Erins Own out of the championship a few years ago for failing to fulfill a fixture, even tho it lost players to inury who had been playing for cork. some concern they had for that club!
It is also my experience, from being a player and an underage manager, that the biggest obstacle to running off competitions is the stroke pulling that goes on at board meetings to have games moved left, right and centre, altho I belong to a junior club so maybe it`s more prevalent there. I do know that my club played a county final a few years back in december when cork had been eliminated early on in the summer, which suggests that the county board never really gave priority to smaller clubs anyway.
However, the issue goes deeper than this. way deeper. the progressive motion to abolish the right of county champions to nominate a select or and the county captain proposed by ballinhassig back in october was piggybacked by an amending motion from bob honohan of bishopstown (once of mitchelstown ) to remove the right of any new manager in hurling and football to pick his own select ors. Coming on the back of a humilating All Ireland defeat to Kerry and rumours that current manager billy morgan had called all the shots on the line, the timing was perfect and it was overwhelmingly passed by delegates who had not consulted with their clubs. These rumours were substantiated by an article by kieran shannon in the Sunday Tribune which had little or no basis in fact, and they were subsequently withdrawn. However, the damage was done and Shannon`s source could be pleased with his truth distorting work.
When the players called for a rethink and threatened strike action, the board delegates probably got their backs up and bob`s motion was passed (or not defeated ) a second time. it provoked billy morgan`s resignation, whose time may well have been up but who could have been given the courtesy of a phone call rather than this back-handed backstab. He inherited a cork football team that was set back 20 years by larry tompkins` mismanagement and he took what I would consider a weak enough team to within 70 minutes of an AI title. He and Mickey Harte were the only managers to best Kerry in the last five years, and of course he was centrally involved in Cork`s 3 AI wins in the modern era. frank murphy left the country for the first of two long holidays while cork seemed to be on the brink again.
However, the thing is that bob honohan has a lot of previous with billy morgan. Back in 1991, one year after Morgan had led cork to its first ever four in row in munster and two in a row AI and the second leg of the double, Cork were sensationally dumped out of the first round of munster by a p**s-poor kerry team. At the following autumn convention, honohan led a charge that morgan was not fit for office, so to speak, and produced a charge sheet that included drinking with the players and other misdemeanours, and in his efforts to unseat morgan he received the support of a number of exc utive delegates, including the late con murphy.
the exc utive produced an alternative team management for the 1992 season, which included among others Teddy Holland and Liam Hodnett. Following a public outcry and intervention by ray cummins among others IIRC, the board backed down big style and so did Teddy, Liam and the others. Remember that. Teddy backed down when told to do so by the board.
The players have said effectively that teddy forfeited their trust when he took the job, and I completely agree with them. The players have no right to pick the manager, which is how it should be, but they can`t work under someone who by his actions told them all to take a hike. However, for the rest of us mere mortals, we are indeed entitled to ask whether teddy holland is up to the job and to query why the board would pick him.
I am afraid teddy is not up to the job folks. he managed clon last year and within 3 months of taking the job, the clon players revolted and wanted him out. Were they a bunch of eogtistical prima donnas as well? Is it something in the water down here? By the time clon went out narrowly in a replay to nemo (when they should have won the first game ) , teddy was a peripheral figure. That is a fact.
Liam Hodnett put himself forward to manage his club`s footballers 8 times and lost everytime. That is a fact. The cork u21 footballers who won four in a row in munster and won the AI last year were managed by Diarmuid O donovan at minor level, where they never won a munster. That is a fact. Mick O loughlin is not up to the job, but I have to admit that is my opinion, albeit shared by many more in the football fraternity in cork. Teddy MacCarthy is the one marquee name here, a man who I idolised as a kid, but who hasn`t been involved in football in years, and who, with the maximum respect for the man, is appealing a prison sentence and whose mind is surely on other things.
So whatever the players think about Teddy Holland, I put it to all of you that the Cork county board, by its actions and its appointments of incompetents, is failing the game of football in Cork. it is doing this because of the begrudgery of one particular individual, supported by many others including the all powerful secretary, and by the hunger of a small few individuals to gain close control of the team. This is absolutely unacceptable to those who really care about the game.
While I don`t believe that the Cork county board is a democratic institution (the wishes of the clubs were absolutely ignored during the debate on Croke Park because they were at odds with the exc utive ) , I do accept the implied point by pro ccb posters that if the players ignore the wishes of the board, then anarchy may well prevail and cork will only be the starting point. I really accept that, which I why I find it hard to see a resolution on this. However, posters who have called for those of us who want change to simply tell our delegates to demand change are incredibly naive about the workings of that board. Frank has been secretary since 1972. he was put there by Con Murphy, who was secretary before him since 1957. Unbroken continuity for 51 years. Unlike other counties, the real power rests not with the elected chairman but with the appointed secretary and generally chairman have been elected unopposed (a real sign of democratic malaise ) and have largely been weak and ineffectual. The current invisible chairman is a case in point.
In fact, if I or anybody else wanted real change at board level, which would include the removal of the exc utive and at the very least, the diminution of the powers of the secretary, I would have to get it past my own club first, causing a civil war there. And therein lies the problem. the "administrators" are by in large in favour of the status quo (my own club delegate (a very nice fella ) thinks it`s all about donal og wanting money ) , while players and coaches are by in large in favour of change. If real change was demanded, it could provoke civil war in every single club, and I include cloyne, nemo rangers, newtown and others in that. they all have members who idolise/fear frank, and in fact they are often board delegates.
The truth is the unhealthy domination by one individual, surrounded by weak willed characters and a few rottweilers, has led to a situation where the county board is less interested in promoting the games in cork than in grabbing micro control over the county teams by installing its own yes men to manage the footballers. The truth is that the county hurlers and footballers are embarrassing all of us in cork by having the courage to take on these control freaks because ordinary club members haven`t the cojones to take the board on, this poster included. And that folks, is the kernel of the problem.
It is dispiriting, but it explains why we are the rebel county. We are the rebel county because of our own miserable failings and our meek acceptance of authoritarian control.
PS this is a very long post, so please don`t quote it in ye`re replies!!
All of which tallies with my oft-repeated sentiment that this is about much more than a county board decision regarding selectors. That being the case, why weren't the players honest and open about their real issues? They'd have had more respect and support then I suspect.
Also, if this issue is buried with a plamásing agreement, then the real problem, if it exists, in Cork will continue, and Frank Murphy and co may actually be stronger as a result.
A bad battle, badly fought.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 06, 2008, 07:26:05 PM
All of which tallies with my oft-repeated sentiment that this is about much more than a county board decision regarding selectors. That being the case, why weren't the players honest and open about their real issues? They'd have had more respect and support then I suspect.
Also, if this issue is buried with a plamásing agreement, then the real problem, if it exists, in Cork will continue, and Frank Murphy and co may actually be stronger as a result.
A bad battle, badly fought.
Agreed up to a point AZ, unfortunately your post could equally have been written in 1992 or 2002, the players know and everyone else in cork knows that Murphy can't be taken on head to head because he will always win. Like J Edgar he knows where the bodies are buried not only in cork but in central council as well and has the favours to pull in. All they can do is address the symtoms (like in 92 & 02) and watch him crawl back into the long grass to bide his time for another go.
As for the players being open and honest about the real issues, how open and honest were the CB about their real motives? Club fixtures my hole.
passedit, that may be true - I think it's true, for what my opinion is worth - but Frank Murphy has the legitimacy of the County Board behind him. How else would you have the GAA administered? Because I don't see how the wishes of the players can be put into action without the approval of the County Board
Quote from: deiseach on February 06, 2008, 07:44:38 PM
passedit, that may be true - I think it's true, for what my opinion is worth - but Frank Murphy has the legitimacy of the County Board behind him. How else would you have the GAA administered? Because I don't see how the wishes of the players can be put into action without the approval of the County Board
That's the sad part of it Deiseach, the players knew (or should have known) they were on a beaten docket from the start and to compound matters didn't play their hand well at all but sometimes faced with something so wrong you have to cry enough, whatever the short term consequences.
As for how the GAA should be administered, I certainly don't want a situation where control of a county board can be in the hands of only two men for over half a century. five year terms for every officer paid or unpaid and no swapping once the terms are up. You'll be surprised at the wealth of talent available once it becomes apparent it's not a carve up.All those great county board officers out there can bring their wealth of experience back to their clubs after their stint is up. Sure isn't the club what it's all about?
If the players and the CB can come to a resolution that would iinvolve TH staying in the job (even if only for one season) then I think that would be the best possible solution for all involved. I hope that this is the case and it's all sorted out asap
Have to agree with passdit re 5 year terms but find it hard to believe that in a County the size of Cork all new administrative talent
has bee strangled at birth by Murphy & Honohan. If the CB are soimalable surely another faction should have been able tocome through as has happened in other counties.
At the end of the day you still need an admin. structure and people to run it and with the reduction in the numbers prepared to give of their time ( not just a GAA problem) its not going to get any easier. I think Liam Mulvihill in his valedictory interviews was making the point that the 5 year rule was now starting to have an effect and that large numbers of good administrators were being replaced by people of little experience - this of course can play into the hands of full time officials who can make themselves indespensable.
To be confirmed, so don't hang me if it's not true but I think the players are staying on 'strike'.
Edit: Looks like it's true, their saying the same thing on AFR.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 09:36:14 PM
To be confirmed, so don't hang me if it's not true but I think the players are staying on 'strike'.
I has thought that the fact they stayed talking for so long indicated that a resolution was in hand. Your source good??
Yep.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 09:36:14 PM
To be confirmed, so don't hang me if it's not true but I think the players are staying on 'strike'.
Not really surprised to be honest - both sides are so entrenched in their positions it was going to take more the Kieran Mulvey to bring them together - next stop United Nations
Quote from: stephenite on February 06, 2008, 09:38:51 PM
[Not really surprised to be honest - both sides are so entrenched in their positions it was going to take more the Kieran Mulvey to bring them together - next stop United Nations
Maybe instead of sending the Army Rangers to Chad we'll have to send then to Cork.
Orangeman if you knew something about Cork GAA I might take your comments about Donal Og and Sean Og seriously, the reality is that the vast majority of the ordinary GAA supporters in the county back the players.
What nonsense !!! Of course the majority don't support the players - a small rump of malcontents obviously do ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: stephenite on February 06, 2008, 09:25:28 PM
If the players and the CB can come to a resolution that would iinvolve TH staying in the job (even if only for one season) then I think that would be the best possible solution for all involved. I hope that this is the case and it's all sorted out asap
Not sure why you think that would be the best solution.
If I was a Cork player, there is no way I'd play under Holland. Though I wouldnt stop anyone else playing...
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 09:36:14 PM
Edit: Looks like it's true, their saying the same thing on AFR.
Then it must be true :D
If I was a Cork player, there is no way I'd play under Holland.
People who want to play for Cork should be given the jerseys - Holland should pick a panel - do the trainig and cut these "strikers" loose !
Quote from: Hound on February 06, 2008, 09:52:38 PM
Quote from: stephenite on February 06, 2008, 09:25:28 PM
If the players and the CB can come to a resolution that would iinvolve TH staying in the job (even if only for one season) then I think that would be the best possible solution for all involved. I hope that this is the case and it's all sorted out asap
Not sure why you think that would be the best solution.
If I was a Cork player, there is no way I'd play under Holland. Though I wouldnt stop anyone else playing...
I'm thinking it'd be the best for all involved in the GAA - I believe there is some ramifications for the entire GAA association if TH is forced into stepping down. The players have accepted the principle of the new managerial appointment process for this year at least, I don't see the point in forcing the man out after you've conceded the argument
Quote from: orangeman on February 06, 2008, 09:59:03 PM
People who want to play for Cork should be given the jerseys - Holland should pick a panel -
A panel of what exactly?
What player is going to volunteer to play for Cork while the main bunch are in dispute?
What player would operate under Holland after he showed he was willing to break the "strike"
One thing about the Langers - they dont do blacklegging.
A panel of players who WANT to play for Cork.
Did this thing not happen in Derry after the 'Coleman Affair', with players refusing to tog out. We played Laois in the first league game in Celtic Park with a gather up of men. We were beat handsomely. I think 'Lord Anthony' got fierce abuse when went to watch the game. Them boys all went back after that. We won the league that year.
What player would want to play while there is a "strike" on?
Will you get a bit of sense like a good man?
Or is the oul anti GPA feeling get the better of you? ;)
I agree with Orangeman, the 2007 players should now step back and invite Holland to pick his panel from those players who want to play for him.
A year of that might bring everyone to their senses. Frank might even get a game himself.
Quote from: the green man on February 06, 2008, 10:11:23 PM
Did this thing not happen in Derry after the 'Coleman Affair', with players refusing to tog out. We played Laois in the first league game in Celtic Park with a gather up of men. We were beat handsomely. I think 'Lord Anthony' got fierce abuse when went to watch the game. Them boys all went back after that. We won the league that year.
How many All Irelands did ye win after that masterstroke?
QuotePeople who want to play for Cork should be given the jerseys - Holland should pick a panel - do the trainig and cut these "strikers" loose
OM you've been saying that repeatedly but can you explain how that will solve anything. Explain how you'd see things pan out over the next 1-3 years. It's all good and saying players who want to play for Cork should play for Cork, but lets be realistic here. The only panel Holland could get together are lads well below IC standard (if even that). So unless you can develop a logical argument showing how taking your line would lead Cork back to competing in both championships with full strength sides, your just repeating an irrational mantra.
QuoteI'm thinking it'd be the best for all involved in the GAA - I believe there is some ramifications for the entire GAA association if TH is forced into stepping down. The players have accepted the principle of the new managerial appointment process for this year at least, I don't see the point in forcing the man out after you've conceded the argument
Stephenite, the man more or less 'hit' the players from behind when he accepted the job. I don't like to see anyone in this situation, but he put himself there and he has stayed there even though at this stage he must have little support anywhere. If he just resigned he could have walked away with his dignity intact and no little sympathyfor the Cork public. Not anymore I'm afraid.
Would it not be fair to say that supporters make the team rather than the players? 20 years ago them Cork ones were out cheering on Teddy, Shay and Colman, not to forget Niall. They cheer on Graham, Anthony and Nicholas today, and in 20 years from now they'll still be cheering on whatever men line out for Cork. Players come and go. The team remains the same.
Quote from: passedit on February 06, 2008, 10:16:05 PM
Quote from: the green man on February 06, 2008, 10:11:23 PM
Did this thing not happen in Derry after the 'Coleman Affair', with players refusing to tog out. We played Laois in the first league game in Celtic Park with a gather up of men. We were beat handsomely. I think 'Lord Anthony' got fierce abuse when went to watch the game. Them boys all went back after that. We won the league that year.
How many All Irelands did ye win after that masterstroke?
None. Not one. But our association isnt a results business. Its about promotion of a culture, and giving people an outlet against the daily grind. Of course its nice to win All Irelands, but its not the be all and end all. Only one team can win it every year, so that means 33 others wont. But we struggle on, pass on the ethos to a younger generation.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 10:16:16 PM
The only panel Holland could get together are lads well below IC standard (if even that). So unless you can develop a logical argument showing how taking your line would lead Cork back to competing in both championships with full strength sides, your just repeating an irrational mantra.
Putting out whipping boy teams has not stopped other counties from competing in the championship.
That said, the Cork County Board seem to be willing to drop out of inter-county competition altogether rather than face the scenario that three-quarters of the counties take as a baseline for their participation. Methinks Frank and co want it every way.
Quote from: the green man on February 06, 2008, 10:24:04 PM
Quote from: passedit on February 06, 2008, 10:16:05 PM
Quote from: the green man on February 06, 2008, 10:11:23 PM
Did this thing not happen in Derry after the 'Coleman Affair', with players refusing to tog out. We played Laois in the first league game in Celtic Park with a gather up of men. We were beat handsomely. I think 'Lord Anthony' got fierce abuse when went to watch the game. Them boys all went back after that. We won the league that year.
How many All Irelands did ye win after that masterstroke?
None. Not one. But our association isnt a results business. Its about promotion of a culture, and giving people an outlet against the daily grind. Of course its nice to win All Irelands, but its not the be all and end all. Only one team can win it every year, so that means 33 others wont. But we struggle on, pass on the ethos to a younger generation.
I'd rather not have an ethos which promotes petty small mindedness, scoresettling and the shafting of one the county's greatest servants at the expense of excellence on the field of play passed on thanks very much.
QuoteWould it not be fair to say that supporters make the team rather than the players? 20 years ago them Cork ones were out cheering on Teddy, Shay and Colman, not to forget Niall. They cheer on Graham, Anthony and Nicholas today, and in 20 years from now they'll still be cheering on whatever men line out for Cork. Players come and go. The team remains the same.
Yes they do but there is a big difference between supporting the best players your county can produce doing their best for your county and supporting lads who are way out of their depth, getting hockeyed and crossing the picket line (so to speak).
It would be beeter having players who really want to paly for Cork as opposed to a panel of players that want simply to dictate who is the manager etc etc - this really IS a case of the tail wagging the dog !
And no matter how much you try to explain to me, I can't understand why Donal Og and Sean Og etc have got invloved in a football matter.
Quote from: passedit on February 06, 2008, 10:30:02 PM
I'd rather not have an ethos which promotes petty small mindedness, scoresettling and the shafting of one the county's greatest servants at the expense of excellence on the field of play passed on thanks very much.
Fair enough, but was the decision of the Cork County Board not passed at their Convention. It is silly that the manager can't pick his backroom team, much the same that it's silly to have to pick your county captain from the county champions. But if its passed at convention then people must agree untill next year when they can move to get the motion overturned. You cant go huffing and puffing everytime something doesn't go your way.
OM with respect, there is a serious problem in Cork and a solution needs to be found that is acceptable, realistic and has a chance to heal the fractures for the foreseeable future. Your solution is none of the above so there is little point fellas posting that Teddy should just pick a new panel. You may as well post they should clone Christy Ring and Dinny Long by 15 and send those lads out.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 10:30:55 PM
QuoteWould it not be fair to say that supporters make the team rather than the players? 20 years ago them Cork ones were out cheering on Teddy, Shay and Colman, not to forget Niall. They cheer on Graham, Anthony and Nicholas today, and in 20 years from now they'll still be cheering on whatever men line out for Cork. Players come and go. The team remains the same.
Yes they do but there is a big difference between supporting the best players your county can produce doing their best for your county and supporting lads who are way out of their depth, getting hockeyed and crossing the picket line (so to speak).
Are you trying to say that there's only 30 men in Cork capable of playing Championship football? It's a big county, I'd say there's another 30 who would be there or there abouts regarding that. Maybe not the best you have, but wouldn't embarrass the jersey either.
QuoteAre you trying to say that there's only 30 men in Cork capable of playing Championship football? It's a big county, I'd say there's another 30 who would be there or there abouts regarding that. Maybe not the best you have, but wouldn't embarrass the jersey either.
No I'm not saying that GM, but the next best 30 footballers/hurlers won't play either, nor the 30 after them. The simple reality is, as I understand it, Teddy Holland will need those club delegates to tog out if he is going to get a team on the pitch. I know I'd not play if I was as possible replacement.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 10:46:46 PM
OM with respect, there is a serious problem in Cork and a solution needs to be found that is acceptable, realistic and has a chance to heal the fractures for the foreseeable future.
If the aim is to produce a solution that is "acceptable, realistic and has a chance to heal the fractures for the foreseeable future", you can absolutely foget about Cork competing in any inter-county action this year. If things really are that serious, any solution cobbled together in the next few weeks would be a placebo.
Zulu, I'm neither for or against the players here and I'm not too sure of the arguements on either side. If you look up at a couple of posts earlier I asked if the selection of the selectors was passed at your convention. If it was, then the players will have to lump it. If it wasn't then they have every right to feel agrieved. Enlighten me a touch.
QuoteIf the aim is to produce a solution that is "acceptable, realistic and has a chance to heal the fractures for the foreseeable future", you can absolutely foget about Cork competing in any inter-county action this year. If things really are that serious, any solution cobbled together in the next few weeks would be a placebo.
Undoubtedly Deiseach, but if Cork are to get a team on the pitch this year Teddy has to go, the other issues can be addressed after the championships. But your right to get a long-term solution there are many issues to be addressed and taking the year out might give everyone the space to re-evaluate their positions and come up with solutions. What I can guarantee is TH won't have any role in a final solution so he may as well go now.
Green man my typing isn't that great so I'll cut and past some of the pertinent previous posts in a minute!
This post is a pretty comprehensive and accurate summing up of the story so far (admittedly from a pro-player view point) if you have any specific questions I'll try to answer them, as I see it of course, I'm sure others will give their tuppence also, so enjoy...
QuoteQuote from: AZOffaly on Today at 03:07:17 PM
No matter what the outcome is Hardy, other than the players getting nothing, they will claim it as a victory. In fairness if Sheehy is right, then this is a more substantial victory for them than Holland quitting and the County board retaining more control in selectors, especially for the hurlers.
Anyway, as I've said, this is all just blowing smoke now, based on the other grievances.
Ye're getting the jist of it now Az. Like all great rows, this one's been a long time brewing and it all comes down to the unhealthy degree of power one man has in cork. The comparison to J Edgar Hoover I highlighted in thon article a few pages back was spot on imo. I make no apology for stealing the post http://www.anfearrua.com/db.asp?a=topicdisplay&tid=435641&xpos=735 below verbatim from corkoniense on AFR as it sums up the situation in as near a nutshell as you can get. I have highlighted a wee history lesson in the middle of the post which is very illuminating. I'd like to see a poster from cork pick holes in it.
Quote
My God this thread has degenerated into farce. Some pro-player posters have now gone to argue that pay-for-play is a good thing, thus justifying the paranoid suspicions of pro-ccb posters that the whole issue is a smokescreen for professionalism. Other posters have claimed to have done more or know more about the GAA than others, as if there was a hierarchy in valid opinion. This post will try to call it as I see it, and I will not insult anybody on this site nor will I respond to any insults.
Ye all know I am behind the players on this one. The issue was originally about the right of a manager to pick his own select ors, but following a plea by the players for no potential manager to take the job until the issue was resolved, the board went ahead and appointed teddy holland as manager. At that moment Teddy forfeited the trust of the players, and effectively gave them two fingers. He lost the dressingroom before a ball was kicked and now he has no dressingroom.
The ostensible reason for the change was that clubs were frustrated by the inability to play games due to intercounty players` commitments. Hence when the players reacted OTT, they were portrayed as elitists with a GPA agenda etc. I cannot answer for the GPA, but the fact that Donal Og Cusack trains his own small club and reached a couple of county finals doing so suggests this arch fiend of the GPA actually gives a damn about his club. Remember the board fired Erins Own out of the championship a few years ago for failing to fulfill a fixture, even tho it lost players to inury who had been playing for cork. some concern they had for that club!
It is also my experience, from being a player and an underage manager, that the biggest obstacle to running off competitions is the stroke pulling that goes on at board meetings to have games moved left, right and centre, altho I belong to a junior club so maybe it`s more prevalent there. I do know that my club played a county final a few years back in december when cork had been eliminated early on in the summer, which suggests that the county board never really gave priority to smaller clubs anyway.
However, the issue goes deeper than this. way deeper. the progressive motion to abolish the right of county champions to nominate a select or and the county captain proposed by ballinhassig back in october was piggybacked by an amending motion from bob honohan of bishopstown (once of mitchelstown ) to remove the right of any new manager in hurling and football to pick his own select ors. Coming on the back of a humilating All Ireland defeat to Kerry and rumours that current manager billy morgan had called all the shots on the line, the timing was perfect and it was overwhelmingly passed by delegates who had not consulted with their clubs. These rumours were substantiated by an article by kieran shannon in the Sunday Tribune which had little or no basis in fact, and they were subsequently withdrawn. However, the damage was done and Shannon`s source could be pleased with his truth distorting work.
When the players called for a rethink and threatened strike action, the board delegates probably got their backs up and bob`s motion was passed (or not defeated ) a second time. it provoked billy morgan`s resignation, whose time may well have been up but who could have been given the courtesy of a phone call rather than this back-handed backstab. He inherited a cork football team that was set back 20 years by larry tompkins` mismanagement and he took what I would consider a weak enough team to within 70 minutes of an AI title. He and Mickey Harte were the only managers to best Kerry in the last five years, and of course he was centrally involved in Cork`s 3 AI wins in the modern era. frank murphy left the country for the first of two long holidays while cork seemed to be on the brink again.
However, the thing is that bob honohan has a lot of previous with billy morgan. Back in 1991, one year after Morgan had led cork to its first ever four in row in munster and two in a row AI and the second leg of the double, Cork were sensationally dumped out of the first round of munster by a p**s-poor kerry team. At the following autumn convention, honohan led a charge that morgan was not fit for office, so to speak, and produced a charge sheet that included drinking with the players and other misdemeanours, and in his efforts to unseat morgan he received the support of a number of exc utive delegates, including the late con murphy.
the exc utive produced an alternative team management for the 1992 season, which included among others Teddy Holland and Liam Hodnett. Following a public outcry and intervention by ray cummins among others IIRC, the board backed down big style and so did Teddy, Liam and the others. Remember that. Teddy backed down when told to do so by the board.
The players have said effectively that teddy forfeited their trust when he took the job, and I completely agree with them. The players have no right to pick the manager, which is how it should be, but they can`t work under someone who by his actions told them all to take a hike. However, for the rest of us mere mortals, we are indeed entitled to ask whether teddy holland is up to the job and to query why the board would pick him.
I am afraid teddy is not up to the job folks. he managed clon last year and within 3 months of taking the job, the clon players revolted and wanted him out. Were they a bunch of eogtistical prima donnas as well? Is it something in the water down here? By the time clon went out narrowly in a replay to nemo (when they should have won the first game ) , teddy was a peripheral figure. That is a fact.
Liam Hodnett put himself forward to manage his club`s footballers 8 times and lost everytime. That is a fact. The cork u21 footballers who won four in a row in munster and won the AI last year were managed by Diarmuid O donovan at minor level, where they never won a munster. That is a fact. Mick O loughlin is not up to the job, but I have to admit that is my opinion, albeit shared by many more in the football fraternity in cork. Teddy MacCarthy is the one marquee name here, a man who I idolised as a kid, but who hasn`t been involved in football in years, and who, with the maximum respect for the man, is appealing a prison sentence and whose mind is surely on other things.
So whatever the players think about Teddy Holland, I put it to all of you that the Cork county board, by its actions and its appointments of incompetents, is failing the game of football in Cork. it is doing this because of the begrudgery of one particular individual, supported by many others including the all powerful secretary, and by the hunger of a small few individuals to gain close control of the team. This is absolutely unacceptable to those who really care about the game.
While I don`t believe that the Cork county board is a democratic institution (the wishes of the clubs were absolutely ignored during the debate on Croke Park because they were at odds with the exc utive ) , I do accept the implied point by pro ccb posters that if the players ignore the wishes of the board, then anarchy may well prevail and cork will only be the starting point. I really accept that, which I why I find it hard to see a resolution on this. However, posters who have called for those of us who want change to simply tell our delegates to demand change are incredibly naive about the workings of that board. Frank has been secretary since 1972. he was put there by Con Murphy, who was secretary before him since 1957. Unbroken continuity for 51 years. Unlike other counties, the real power rests not with the elected chairman but with the appointed secretary and generally chairman have been elected unopposed (a real sign of democratic malaise ) and have largely been weak and ineffectual. The current invisible chairman is a case in point.
In fact, if I or anybody else wanted real change at board level, which would include the removal of the exc utive and at the very least, the diminution of the powers of the secretary, I would have to get it past my own club first, causing a civil war there. And therein lies the problem. the "administrators" are by in large in favour of the status quo (my own club delegate (a very nice fella ) thinks it`s all about donal og wanting money ) , while players and coaches are by in large in favour of change. If real change was demanded, it could provoke civil war in every single club, and I include cloyne, nemo rangers, newtown and others in that. they all have members who idolise/fear frank, and in fact they are often board delegates.
The truth is the unhealthy domination by one individual, surrounded by weak willed characters and a few rottweilers, has led to a situation where the county board is less interested in promoting the games in cork than in grabbing micro control over the county teams by installing its own yes men to manage the footballers. The truth is that the county hurlers and footballers are embarrassing all of us in cork by having the courage to take on these control freaks because ordinary club members haven`t the cojones to take the board on, this poster included. And that folks, is the kernel of the problem.
It is dispiriting, but it explains why we are the rebel county. We are the rebel county because of our own miserable failings and our meek acceptance of authoritarian control.
PS this is a very long post, so please don`t quote it in ye`re replies!!
Quote from: orangeman on February 06, 2008, 10:35:07 PM
It would be beeter having players who really want to paly for Cork as opposed to a panel of players that want simply to dictate who is the manager etc etc - this really IS a case of the tail wagging the dog !
And no matter how much you try to explain to me, I can't understand why Donal Og and Sean Og etc have got invloved in a football matter.
It's a Cork matter not a football matter. You must understand that. That piece from AFR sums it up perfectly.
Quote from: the green man on February 06, 2008, 10:37:38 PM
Quote from: passedit on February 06, 2008, 10:30:02 PM
I'd rather not have an ethos which promotes petty small mindedness, scoresettling and the shafting of one the county's greatest servants at the expense of excellence on the field of play passed on thanks very much.
Fair enough, but was the decision of the Cork County Board not passed at their Convention. It is silly that the manager can't pick his backroom team, much the same that it's silly to have to pick your county captain from the county champions. But if its passed at convention then people must agree untill next year when they can move to get the motion overturned. You cant go huffing and puffing everytime something doesn't go your way.
I was actually referring to the Derry situation. Although i can see how you could get mixed up alright. In hindsight i wonder if the Derry lads wished they'd stuck to their guns.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 11:29:35 PM
Ye all know I am behind the players on this one. The issue was originally about the right of a manager to pick his own select ors, but following a plea by the players for no potential manager to take the job until the issue was resolved, the board went ahead and appointed teddy holland as manager. At that moment Teddy forfeited the trust of the players, and effectively gave them two fingers. He lost the dressingroom before a ball was kicked and now he has no dressingroom.
So here lies the crux. As far as I can see the players have no right here. I was the same in our own club, when the committee got in a manager we thought was useless. I huffed and didn't play. The rest went on and won the county championship for the first time.
TV3 news said a footballer confirmed that the TH issue was the main stumbling point, also reported that Duffy and Mulvey are going home as they said the problem is unsolvable.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 11:49:59 PM
TV3 news said a footballer confirmed that the TH issue was the main stumbling point, also reported that Duffy and Mulvey are going home as they said the problem is unsolvable.
How can this be? IF Teddy Holland resigns, and the CB appoint another manager, along with is selctors, then surely its back to square one. Or is the problem Teddy and not the appointment of selectors?
Teddy hasn't got the trust or respect of the players because he took the job when the players asked that no-one do so. So he has to go, the CB appoint a new man and then some mechanism is agreed upon to find selectors, I'd imagine. Now if the CB are saying that there is no question of Teddy going then I'm not sure there is anything to be done except pack it in for the year.
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 11:58:54 PM
So he has to go, the CB appoint a new man and then some mechanism is agreed upon to find selectors, I'd imagine.
What do you mean, "some mechanism is agreed upon"? Presumably you mean another vote at County Board level.
Quote from: deiseach on February 07, 2008, 12:03:05 AM
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 11:58:54 PM
So he has to go, the CB appoint a new man and then some mechanism is agreed upon to find selectors, I'd imagine.
What do you mean, "some mechanism is agreed upon"? Presumably you mean another vote at County Board level.
Would that vote not have to go to the clubs?
Quote from: the green man on February 07, 2008, 12:06:28 AM
Would that vote not have to go to the clubs?
Well, exactly. It ain't going to happen by waving a magic wand.
Quote from: deiseach on February 07, 2008, 12:08:17 AM
Quote from: the green man on February 07, 2008, 12:06:28 AM
Would that vote not have to go to the clubs?
Well, exactly. It ain't going to happen by waving a magic wand.
So its going to have to wait untill nexts years convention, or an extraordinary meeting. And what if the clubs still back their original decision. What then for Cork?
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 11:58:54 PM
Teddy hasn't got the trust or respect of the players because he took the job when the players asked that no-one do so. So he has to go, the CB appoint a new man and then some mechanism is agreed upon to find selectors, I'd imagine. Now if the CB are saying that there is no question of Teddy going then I'm not sure there is anything to be done except pack it in for the year.
This is where we differ Zulu - the players have no business asking that no one take the job.
Quote from: stephenite on February 07, 2008, 12:53:42 AM
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 11:58:54 PM
Teddy hasn't got the trust or respect of the players because he took the job when the players asked that no-one do so. So he has to go, the CB appoint a new man and then some mechanism is agreed upon to find selectors, I'd imagine. Now if the CB are saying that there is no question of Teddy going then I'm not sure there is anything to be done except pack it in for the year.
This is where we differ Zulu - the players have no business asking that no one take the job.
They asked that no one take the job until the position was clarified. There was serious doubts over the mechanics of the first vote, as has been spelled out previously.
I really can't understand, after 39 pages of debate, how you still seem to think that Holland is some type of innocent party caught in the middle. :-[
Quote from: Hound on February 07, 2008, 09:05:05 AM
Quote from: stephenite on February 07, 2008, 12:53:42 AM
Quote from: Zulu on February 06, 2008, 11:58:54 PM
Teddy hasn't got the trust or respect of the players because he took the job when the players asked that no-one do so. So he has to go, the CB appoint a new man and then some mechanism is agreed upon to find selectors, I'd imagine. Now if the CB are saying that there is no question of Teddy going then I'm not sure there is anything to be done except pack it in for the year.
This is where we differ Zulu - the players have no business asking that no one take the job.
They asked that no one take the job until the position was clarified. There was serious doubts over the mechanics of the first vote, as has been spelled out previously.
I really can't understand, after 39 pages of debate, how you still seem to think that Holland is some type of innocent party caught in the middle. :-[
That makes no difference to the fact that the players have no business asking anyone not to take the job until anything was clarified. I can't believe that after 39 pages of debate you still seem to think the players have some divine right to go on strike for their hobby. For eons there have been mechanisms in place for those in the GAA that are dissatisifed with the results or machiniations of officaldom - until now striking was never one of them.
Not a very auspicious start to Padraic Duffy's career, though it could indicate a refreshing willingness to try doing the right thing regardless of political consequences.
I find it hard to believe that it's all down to Teddy Holland now. Could it be that the payers believe they have a real chance of achieving their real goal and forcing the Frank Murphy issue? Do they have a realistic chance?
It seems there are three possible directions to go now:
1. Teddy steps down and the brokered peace agreement goes into effect - doesn't seem likely to happen.
2. The players sit it out, pressure mounts on Frank and Bob and, in a Causescu moment, the "people" see an opportunity to achieve the hitherto unthinkable and Frank and Bob are swept aside in a grassroots revolution. Could this really happen?
3. The CB executive take the only active alternative open to them (as opposed to doing nothing) and instruct Teddy and Gerald to pick teams. This seems to be the most likely next move to me.
Sinn Fein have taken over the Cork Football & Hurling panels! 'Ourselves Alone'.
I am reminded of the story of the army passing out parsde where every body led with their left foot except for Johnny who led with his right. O luck said his loving parents - everybody's out of step accept our Johnny.
If Hardy is right and the real target is Frank Murphy not alone so the panels or their leaders want the County Board to spend €1.3M running teams they now want them to sack Frank which means ,at the least a redundancy package if not also an unfair dismissal claim ! And all this against a man who appears to have the support of his County Boardwho let me remind people are the democratic representatives of the clubs!
The best efforts of the Director General of the Association and the best mediator in Ireland togeather with movement from the County Board are not enough for them. Just who do the players think they are and what do they think makes them so special!
Quote from: Hardy on February 07, 2008, 09:32:37 AM
Not a very auspicious start to Padraic Duffy's career, though it could indicate a refreshing willingness to try doing the right thing regardless of political consequences.
I find it hard to believe that it's all down to Teddy Holland now. Could it be that the payers believe they have a real chance of achieving their real goal and forcing the Frank Murphy issue? Do they have a realistic chance?
It seems there are three possible directions to go now:
1. Teddy steps down and the brokered peace agreement goes into effect - doesn't seem likely to happen.
2. The players sit it out, pressure mounts on Frank and Bob and, in a Causescu moment, the "people" see an opportunity to achieve the hitherto unthinkable and Frank and Bob are swept aside in a grassroots revolution. Could this really happen?
3. The CB executive takes the only active alternative open to them (as opposed top doing nothing) and instructs Teddy and Gerald to pick teams. This seems to be the most likely next move to me.
The fourth outcome could be that Cork simply sit out Championship 2008. Hard to see their sponsors being too happy with that.
I'd imagine Option 1 is the most realistic.
I also think the players should gut it out, and launch a campaign against Frank Murphy and co, if they really feel that they are abusing their power.
I think the players handled this really badly.
Think the first option is the most likely also AZ.
I'd also agree that the players have handled this terribly
AZ - I think your fourth option is effectively my number 2. Whether it would result in sufficient pressure on Frank Murphy to compromise his position, I don't know.
I can't see option 1 happening now, since it hasn't happened before now. At this stage it would represent a complete capitulation by the CB - much more so than if it had been part of the brokered arrangement.
The County Board will try and spin it that it is
"Teddy Holland, with real regret etc. etc., taking a personal decision for the good of Cork GAA to remove himselve as a stumbling block. Teddy resigned and was not asked to leave, and the Cork county Board remain steadfast in their support of Teddy, who has always only wanted what is best for the GAA in Cork."
AZ - are you PJ Mara, Alistair Campbell - or the incomparable Frank Murphy himself?
Quote from: Hardy on February 07, 2008, 10:20:18 AM
AZ - I think your fourth option is effectively my number 2. Whether it would result in sufficient pressure on Frank Murphy to compromise his position, I don't know.
I can't see option 1 happening now, since it hasn't happened before now. At this stage it would represent a complete capitulation by the CB - much more so than if it had been part of the brokered arrangement.
But it has Hardy on another groundhog day.
QuoteHowever, the thing is that bob honohan has a lot of previous with billy morgan. Back in 1991, one year after Morgan had led cork to its first ever four in row in munster and two in a row AI and the second leg of the double, Cork were sensationally dumped out of the first round of munster by a p**s-poor kerry team. At the following autumn convention, honohan led a charge that morgan was not fit for office, so to speak, and produced a charge sheet that included drinking with the players and other misdemeanours, and in his efforts to unseat morgan he received the support of a number of exc utive delegates, including the late con murphy.
the exc utive produced an alternative team management for the 1992 season, which included among others Teddy Holland and Liam Hodnett. Following a public outcry and intervention by ray cummins among others IIRC, the board backed down big style and so did Teddy, Liam and the others. Remember that. Teddy backed down when told to do so by the board.
Myself i'd sincerely hope for a combination of options two and four.
Hoganstand.
Talks collapse in Cork
07 February 2008
Negotiations between the warring parties in Cork broke down last night leaving the Rebel County's future in this year's national leagues in grave jeopardy.
Representatives of the county's senior and football squads rejected a document drafted by Director General of the GAA Paraic Duffy and Labour Relations Commission Chairman Kieran Mulvey.
It is understood that the Cork County Board gave the document the thumbs up but the players failed to rubber stamp an agreement despite the board making a number of concessions, including allowing the players to have an input into the appointment of future managers.
Speculation is rife in Cork that the question of Teddy Holland's position as senior football team-manager remains the major sticking point in the impasse.
This latest setback almost certainly means that Cork are out of the national leagues this year in both codes.
Are any bookies taking odds on Cork missing the leagues in either code? I'd be willing to bet there'll be an '11th hour' solution.
QuoteAZ - are you PJ Mara, Alistair Campbell - or the incomparable Frank Murphy himself?
Not quite :D. But I've read enough of these mealy mouthed 'by mutual consent' type statements to guess the way they will try and spin it if Teddy exits stage right.
Then he'll write a book about it :D
Quote from: passedit on February 07, 2008, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Hardy on February 07, 2008, 10:20:18 AM
AZ - I think your fourth option is effectively my number 2. Whether it would result in sufficient pressure on Frank Murphy to compromise his position, I don't know.
I can't see option 1 happening now, since it hasn't happened before now. At this stage it would represent a complete capitulation by the CB - much more so than if it had been part of the brokered arrangement.
But it has Hardy on another groundhog day.
QuoteHowever, the thing is that bob honohan has a lot of previous with billy morgan. Back in 1991, one year after Morgan had led cork to its first ever four in row in munster and two in a row AI and the second leg of the double, Cork were sensationally dumped out of the first round of munster by a p**s-poor kerry team. At the following autumn convention, honohan led a charge that morgan was not fit for office, so to speak, and produced a charge sheet that included drinking with the players and other misdemeanours, and in his efforts to unseat morgan he received the support of a number of exc utive delegates, including the late con murphy.
the exc utive produced an alternative team management for the 1992 season, which included among others Teddy Holland and Liam Hodnett. Following a public outcry and intervention by ray cummins among others IIRC, the board backed down big style and so did Teddy, Liam and the others. Remember that. Teddy backed down when told to do so by the board.
Myself i'd sincerely hope for a combination of options two and four.
The difference there passedit, is that there wasn't a real public outcry about this decision. I'd say Cork is fairly split on this.
Having siad that, that is the denouement I see happening.
Anyway, if Frank Murphy really is Cork's dictator, and the rest of the county board are his foot soldiers, then I too would like to see them gone. However, the players haven't had the guts to come out and say that, at least openly, and with all guns blazing. We can only guess, or relate anecdotes.
The facts of this case, as I see them, is that a vote was passed, once unsatisfactorily, and once properly. The players didn't like this and went off in a huff. I wish they had used this opportunity to really air their grievances, if those grievances really exist.
There is major pressure mounting on the parties involved to get a resolution to this. Not only are O2 seriously pissed off but from an extremely reliable source O'Neill's have a major input in trying to get this sorted. there is a stockpile of Cork jersis with O2 in the front produced and waiting to be sold. O2 are starting to make serious noises about pulling their money. O'Neill's consequently pushing hard to get a deal brokered.
There will be blood and bandages everywhere before this is sorted!
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 07, 2008, 10:36:34 AM
There is major pressure mounting on the parties involved to get a resolution to this. Not only are O2 seriously pissed off but from an extremely reliable source O'Neill's have a major input in trying to get this sorted. there is a stockpile of Cork jersis with O2 in the front produced and waiting to be sold. O2 are starting to make serious noises about pulling their money. O'Neill's consequently pushing hard to get a deal brokered.
There will be blood and bandages everywhere before this is sorted!
It'll all come down to the money in the end. O2, O'Neills and RTE will start making noises if Cork aren't in the championship. Cork are due to play Tipp in the Munster Hurling Semi Final, and the famous Munster Football fix, I mean final, between Cork and Kerry would also be a television banker.
It is already happening and the players I think are playing a delaying game knowing that at the end of the day the CB will have their hands forced by powers outside of their control. There is only one resolution to this and that is TH steps down, an interim football manager is put in place for the term of the year and the whole issue re-visited at the end of the year.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 07, 2008, 10:45:48 AM
It is already happening and the players I think are playing a delaying game knowing that at the end of the day the CB will have their hands forced by powers outside of their control. There is only one resolution to this and that is TH steps down, an interim football manager is put in place for the term of the year and the whole issue re-visited at the end of the year.
Why didn't they go for the big Kahuna? Take FM and his cohorts out with a dispute like this, if he is really the problem? I ask you because I know you have contacts down there. I know Zulu has too, but I don't know what type or where.
If there is such a big problem with the existing Co. Board, why don't they go after them, instead of totally disproportionate reactions to what seemed to be a democratic decision.
Viva la revolucion.
Talking to one of the players involved late last night and the sticking point is Teddy Hlland, if he doesn't go then it looks unlikely that the players will field even in the championship. I don't think people should under-esitmate the depth of feeling among the players around what they see is a deliberate policy by the CB to undermine the structures that were put in place under previous managements to set Cork up to compete at the highest level. TH has deliberately allowed himself to be used as the stooge of the CB and I have little sympathy for him as he knew what he was doing when he took the job and saw it as an opportunity to manage the senior Cork team a chance he knew he would never have under normal circumstances.
The CB sit there every year congratualting themselves as along as there is a least one smiling Cork captain on the front of the Cork GAA yearbook but they never think about all the All Irelands that could have been won if Cork GAA would move with the times and be as progressive as it should be as a leading GAA county.
If Cork try to field a team in the NFL/NHL it will be a joke as nobody from senior clubs in the county will want to break ranks with their fellow club men on strike, even the top players from intermediate and junior clubs will be unwilling to break ranks on the basis that in some point in the future if they have genuine inter county ambitions they will have to play with the same people who are on "strike" once this sorry mess is sorted out.
Its nonesense to suggest that county board delegates are acting on behalf of clubs, most of these gys are in situ for years and are as detatched from the reality on the ground as the CB is. Do you really think that any club in Cork wants to be seen to vote against or agitate against FM - beleive me wouldn't bode well for your club in the future in relation the fixtures, grants etc. Reality is that FM rules the CB with an iron fist and nobody in officialidom within Cork GAA has the nerve to face him down - it has taken the players to stand up to him just like they did in 2002.
Anyone who says why did Donal Og etc get involved in a football issue, very simple this wasn't just about the footballers but a wider attempt to graps back control of county teams by the CB. In 2002 the issue wasn't with the footballers but the hurlers and yet the footballers backed the hurlers and the same is happening today - the difference is that Bertie Og Murphy despite being blameless compared to TH had the decency and the interests of Cork GAA at heart by stepping aside. Some of the contributions here are more about a GPA bias than anything else, some of the people here slagging off Donal Og and Sean Og should look at those guys records in terms of involvvement in their own clubs along with their commitment to promoting hurling in the country in general and particularly Ulster - as the tattoo says on Big Dan's arm if you don't know me don't judge me.
Pull hard has made it clear what the situation is and he is right in regards to the serious misgivings about TH among the players.
Frank Murphy is a full time paid employee of the CB and the players really do not have the standing to force him out of his role. To do so would open up a legal dispute which would be even more unseemly than the current situation. Bob Honahan is his lacky and is tightly wedded to him. The only way that the players could do anything against him would be through the delegates voting him out. This will not happen as 95% of the delegates are dictated to by Murphy. The reality is that Murphy makes the snowballs and the likes of Honahan throw them.
The reality on the ground down here is that the CB don't give a fiddlers damn about the players and how they are treat so long as they get enough exposure in the press for their sponsor. To make this dispute go away O2 will be the big movers and eventually they are going to make the people who handle their investment, ie the CB, do what O2 want. I would presume that O2 love having Sean Og in every paper with his Cork jersey on than some average club player who no-one knows.
Quote from: Pull Hard Hes No Relation on February 07, 2008, 10:50:40 AM
Talking to one of the players involved late last night and the sticking point is Teddy Hlland, if he doesn't go then it looks unlikely that the players will field even in the championship. I don't think people should under-esitmate the depth of feeling among the players around what they see is a deliberate policy by the CB to undermine the structures that were put in place under previous managements to set Cork up to compete at the highest level. TH has deliberately allowed himself to be used as the stooge of the CB and I have little sympathy for him as he knew what he was doing when he took the job and saw it as an opportunity to manage the senior Cork team a chance he knew he would never have under normal circumstances.
But see, that doesn't make sense. If Teddy Holland goes, they will still be playing under the 'deliberate policy by the CB to undermine the structures put in place'.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 07, 2008, 11:00:11 AM
Pull hard has made it clear what the situation is and he is right in regards to the serious misgivings about TH among the players.
Frank Murphy is a full time paid employee of the CB and the players really do not have the standing to force him out of his role. To do so would open up a legal dispute which would be even more unseemly than the current situation. Bob Honahan is his lacky and is tightly wedded to him. The only way that the players could do anything against him would be through the delegates voting him out. This will not happen as 95% of the delegates are dictated to by Murphy. The reality is that Murphy makes the snowballs and the likes of Honahan throw them.
The reality on the ground down here is that the CB don't give a fiddlers damn about the players and how they are treat so long as they get enough exposure in the press for their sponsor. To make this dispute go away O2 will be the big movers and eventually they are going to make the people who handle their investment, ie the CB, do what O2 want. I would presume that O2 love having Sean Og in every paper with his Cork jersey on than some average club player who no-one knows.
I find that very hard to believe. Frank Murphy is employed by the GAA. If the GAA can prove that he is abusing his power, or 'deliberately undermining the structures that were put in place under previous managements to set Cork up to compete at the highest level.' then that is surely grounds for dismissal, or at the very least severe questioning of him.
I cannot believe that a county the size of Cork, with the amount of club delegates they have are afraid of one man to this extent. He's wasted in the GAA if that's the case. He could be running the country, never mind Cork GAA.
Quote
Frank Murphy is a full time paid employee of the CB and the players really do not have the standing to force him out of his role.
By the way, if the players have the support they say they have, then they do have the arena, and the method to make life very uncomfortable for him. By getting their club membership to vote no-confidence in him, by getting motions raised at County Board level etc etc. If the clubs are unwilling to do this, well then you'd have to ask who is really right?
Latest from breaking news:
Cork's inter-county GAA players have rejected new proposals aimed at settling their dispute with the County Board.
The latest round of talks - overseen by top GAA official Pauric Duffy and LRC chief executive Kieran Mulvey - broke down last night without any agreement.
This means Sunday's National Hurling League clash with Kilkenny with almost certainly not go ahead.
Major doubt also remains about Cork's participation in the remainder of both the hurling and football leagues.
The players are on strike as part of a dispute over whether the manager should be allowed to appoint his own selectors.
Time for a revolution in the Peoples republic???
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 07, 2008, 11:00:38 AM
Quote from: Pull Hard Hes No Relation on February 07, 2008, 10:50:40 AM
Talking to one of the players involved late last night and the sticking point is Teddy Hlland, if he doesn't go then it looks unlikely that the players will field even in the championship. I don't think people should under-esitmate the depth of feeling among the players around what they see is a deliberate policy by the CB to undermine the structures that were put in place under previous managements to set Cork up to compete at the highest level. TH has deliberately allowed himself to be used as the stooge of the CB and I have little sympathy for him as he knew what he was doing when he took the job and saw it as an opportunity to manage the senior Cork team a chance he knew he would never have under normal circumstances.
But see, that doesn't make sense. If Teddy Holland goes, they will still be playing under the 'deliberate policy by the CB to undermine the structures put in place'.
Exactly, I've said it above. The only reason I can see for the players insistence on TH walking the plank is so they can be seen to have taken something from the whole sorry mess. They have already conceded the principle for this year at least, they went for the strike option too early and I think this is the only way they see a way out of it for themselves.
With regards to the sponsors BC1 - I would not be in any way familair with the process but might the CB tell O2 to take their money back if they want to? If the players aren't togging for this season they'll hardly be needed, if they decide to go with a panel of junior footballers the expenses aren't going to be so high that they can't get some 'smaller' commercial unit to step in. When the whole mess is ironed out (whenever that may be) Corkk GAA won't have any shortage of commercial suitors lining up to have their names on the jersey.
With regards to the 'power' that FM has, well to be honest I find it very hard to believe that the biggest GAA county in the country and the clubs therein are that easily cowed by one man
QuoteWith regards to the 'power' that FM has, well to be honest I find it very hard to believe that the biggest GAA county in the country and the clubs therein are that easily cowed by one man
Why - similar situations have arisen in the past - just ask any of the Meath lads on here about Herr Ginnity
What happened to Ginnity? This is what I was looking for.
QuoteGinnity loses Meath seat
GAA: Following on from the controversy surrounding Eamonn Barry and the Meath County Board, long-serving chairman Fintan Ginnity lost his seat in sensational fashion at the Meath annual convention in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan last night.
You see, it can be done. It can. (I can't remember the film :D)
Quote from: Hardy on February 07, 2008, 10:24:19 AM
the incomparable Frank Murphy himself?
there was once a fella called machiavelli
I believe Frank Murphy was Niccolo Machiavelli's ghost writer.
This has now reached a very serious stage. It is of course the duty of all right-thinking GAA fans outside of Cork to see that this strike is prolonged and indeed exacerbated so that participation in the championship becomes unlikely. (Indeed if the unrest could also be fomented in counties such as Kerry and Kilkenny this would be a very good thing indeed.) The ultimate goal of this strike should be that Cork is weakened in all grades and at all levels for many years to come, thus increasing every other counties chances of success and saving all GAA fans the pain of having to put up with ridiculously-attired followers whining into their ears.
I think many posters here underestimate the hold Murphy has over the delegates and the CB as a whole. As I said before delegates openly voted against the wishes of their clubs. One delegate who is from the same club as a very highly respected senior footballer stood up at the meeting and said that he was voting against the wishes of his club as he would not go contrary to the wishes of Frank Murphy. That is how much of a stranglehold he has.
And it is not just with the CB. I spoke to a man about Frank Murphy's influence on Cork GAA today and he told me a story of how he was invited to an event organised by Frank Murphy a few years back. It was a clap on the back type event for a guy who had worked for Cork GAA for years. The GAA President was there as were the regional managers for a number of the Banks and large insurance companies. They were all flocking around Murphy like flies round shite.
This man was just an ordinary Joe who in any other position would not have had this sort of company at any event held in his honour. They were like courtiers at the Ball looking for the Princess, seeking favour from the man in power, FM.
The reality is that the area of an employee of the GAA in such circumstances abusing their power to such an extent has never really raised its head. Maybe the players do not want to make too many waves as FM has done some good work down through the years and he needs to be kept sweet too.
QuoteI think many posters here underestimate the hold Murphy has over the delegates and the CB as a whole. As I said before delegates openly voted against the wishes of their clubs. One delegate who is from the same club as a very highly respected senior footballer stood up at the meeting and said that he was voting against the wishes of his club as he would not go contrary to the wishes of Frank Murphy. That is how much of a stranglehold he has.
That's a disgrace. And that man should be drummed out at his next club AGM. Also, I cannot believe that Cork GAA people are so weak.
QuoteThe reality is that the area of an employee of the GAA in such circumstances abusing their power to such an extent has never really raised its head. Maybe the players do not want to make too many waves as FM has done some good work down through the years and he needs to be kept sweet too.
Well that's bullsh1t then. Pure hypocrisy. If he is bad for the GAA in Cork, then organise yourselves, and run him out of the place. If he is good, then shut your mouths and get on with it. You can't have your cake and eat it.
QuoteWell that's bullsh1t then. Pure hypocricy. If he is bad for the GAA in Cork, then organise yourselves, and run him out of the place. If he is good, then shut your mouths and get on with it. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Jaysus settle down man, shure I'm only an auld blow in anyway!
I am only relaying what I perceive to be the attitude of people involved. Murphy is not all good and not all bad, and I think there has to be recognition of this. Like any strong individual he has stepped on a lot of toes. The players believe that he has taken it a step too far this time and his ego has gotten the better of him. For what it is worth,I think the players have gone about it the wrong way, though I sympathise with their grievances and if they had had better guidance from an early stage they would have been able to get what they wanted and this would not have eveloved into what it currently is.
There is now a situation where there will have to be one serious loser of face for there to be any resolution and it will come down to who has more to lose. I think that the corporate pressure that will come in the next few weeks will be the deciding factor in all of that.
QuoteJaysus settle down man, shure I'm only an auld blow in anyway!
Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you :D I was saying the players would be hypocrites if they take that stance.
QuoteI think many posters here underestimate the hold Murphy has over the delegates and the CB as a whole. As I said before delegates openly voted against the wishes of their clubs. One delegate who is from the same club as a very highly respected senior footballer stood up at the meeting and said that he was voting against the wishes of his club as he would not go contrary to the wishes of Frank Murphy. That is how much of a stranglehold he has.
Also, as I mentioned before on a post to Zulu, this implies that democratic procedures were compromised, or at worst ignored.
Therefore I feel that while the players still handled it badly, they were perfectly within their rights to complain about this. This, if true, is not democracy.
Also if it is true, then I feel Cork needs to get rid of Frank Murphy, and the spineless toadies who cosy up to him, ignoring their own members.
If it's true.
Quote from: Declan on February 07, 2008, 11:16:18 AM
QuoteWith regards to the 'power' that FM has, well to be honest I find it very hard to believe that the biggest GAA county in the country and the clubs therein are that easily cowed by one man
Why - similar situations have arisen in the past - just ask any of the Meath lads on here about Herr Ginnity
Don't mention the war.
QuoteQuote
I think many posters here underestimate the hold Murphy has over the delegates and the CB as a whole. As I said before delegates openly voted against the wishes of their clubs. One delegate who is from the same club as a very highly respected senior footballer stood up at the meeting and said that he was voting against the wishes of his club as he would not go contrary to the wishes of Frank Murphy. That is how much of a stranglehold he has.
Also, as I mentioned before on a post to Zulu, this implies that democratic procedures were compromised, or at worst ignored.
Therefore I feel that while the players still handled it badly, they were perfectly within their rights to complain about this. This, if true, is not democracy.
Also if it is true, then I feel Cork needs to get rid of Frank Murphy, and the spineless toadies who cosy up to him, ignoring their own members.
If it's true.
I have no reason to dispute the truthfulness of this situation as it was dicussed at a recent meeting in our club as we are behind the players fully on this, and then further confirmed by a completely independent person who would have solid knowledge of what is going on.
The toadis as you call them are the big problem here. Murphy would not have the influence he has if they had the gonads to standup to him. As I stated earlier on they are too keen to ensure they have tickets to all the big games and to the various different corporate events to actually stand up and make their voices heard.
Our delegate voted against the co board motion on both occasions with no fear whatsoever. Basically our club felt that the manager should have his own selectors!! However a lot of club members are disgusted with players running to the media so much! we have a meting next week and I will let ye know how he voted in the vote if confidence in Frank. I will say one thing, it's crazy that members of the public can write to Frank before an Ai final and get tickets from him as 2 fellas in my office did last year!! Both not members of any GAA club as well!!
Cork will most likely play no part now in the national leagues and the county's participation in the All-Ireland Championships must also be in doubt.
The absence of the most successful county in the country from the association's premier competitions due to a players' strike would go down as one of the lowest points in the GAA's history.
Please don't allow this headline to continue - wise the baps !
Quote from: cicfada on February 07, 2008, 01:28:17 PM
Our delegate voted against the co board motion on both occasions with no fear whatsoever. Basically our club felt that the manager should have his own selectors!! However a lot of club members are disgusted with players running to the media so much! we have a meting next week and I will let ye know how he voted in the vote if confidence in Frank. I will say one thing, it's crazy that members of the public can write to Frank before an Ai final and get tickets from him as 2 fellas in my office did last year!! Both not members of any GAA club as well!!
I'll save you the bother of going to that meeting.Mr Murphy had 100% backing in the vote of confidence. ;D. Saddam at the peak of his power and being the only candidate on the ballet could never get that level of support. As for players running to the media, Im sure if you add up the numberous interviews and leaks given to the media the CCB wins handily. The players, one interview apart, are notable for their absence in the media over the last few weeks. Bob Ryna on the other hand...
No organisation that wants to be successful can allow the tail to wag the dog. County players represent only a very small percentage of GAA members in Cork.
Either Cork County Board runs gaelic games in Cork or the GPA does. That is the question. Simple really. There can't and shouldn't be any compromise.
Either Cork County Board runs gaelic games in Cork or the GPA does. That is the question. Simple really. There can't and shouldn't be any compromise.
That's a fair enough summary of the issue in question.
Quote from: orangeman on February 07, 2008, 01:50:03 PM
Either Cork County Board runs gaelic games in Cork or the GPA does. That is the question. Simple really. There can't and shouldn't be any compromise.
That's a fair enough summary of the issue in question.
IDIOT
Orangeman, that latest post sums up your contribution to this thread. Your real issue with the stance of the Cork players has nothing to do with what the real issues are and all to do with an anti GPA bias. A lot of posters are using this thread to continue the GPA bashing that is prevalent on some other threads stick to the issues at hand and don't pollute every thread with the same tirade that a lot of people are getting sick of listening to.
Grants issue will now be dealt with at congress and has nothing to do with what is at stake in Cork although some of the clowns on the CB share your anti GPA bias and see the current situation as a chance to stick two fingers up to what they perceive to be player power.
So why is Donal Og the spokesperson for a footballing issue ?
How often do people have to state that its not a football issue, the fact is that it only happened to affect the footballers first. The fact that Donal Og is "spokesperson" as you say is because the guy has the courage of his convictions and is seeing as a leader within his peer group of players. It would appear you have a fixation with Donal Og and trying to take cheap shots at the guy, as I said in a previous post if you don't know someone dont judge them. I have little doubt his contribution to grassroots GAA is just as significant if not more so as yours.
Stick to the issue and leave your GPA rants to another thread.
Quoteif you don't know someone dont judge them
Are you Dan Shanahan? :D
If you saw my efforts on the hruling field AZ you would be in no doubt on that one! ;D
Please don't make sweeping statements like the ones you've juist made - this style suits your argument - so if you wouldn't mind, please read all my posts on this thread, count the number of times that I have mentioned the GPA and let me know - just to settle the argument you've started - are you a member of the GPA by the way ?
Heres alittle something for the innocent ones.
FOR those who think the CCB is democratic.april 2006
Fear and loathing as Cork clubs seethe over No vote
The Cork county board's decision to ignore their clubs on Rule 42 has angered many — but not enough to disrupt the status quo, writes Michael Foley
KILLAVULLEN is a village in north Cork 20 miles from Cork city, shadowed on one side by Mallow and by Fermoy further to the east. In the five years since their football team's promotion to intermediate level, Killavullen's GAA club have had a vote at Cork county board meetings. In a small community the footballers' achievements have been a source of great pride, their county board vote a reflection of the club's enhanced status.
A few weeks ago the club members debated the Congress motions on Rule 42 and narrowly supported the one to temporarily open Croke Park. Then on the Tuesday before Congress the Cork county board held their usual meeting, but Killavullen's delegate Pat O'Brien was on holidays. The news that Cork had opted to forego a club vote and oppose the motion on the basis of a mandate given at county convention in 2003 infuriated clubs across the county, and struck a nerve in Killavullen.
O'Brien felt compelled to act. Last Wednesday morning the Cork Evening Echo led its back page with the headline: "Showdown". O'Brien described the board's ruling as "undemocratic" and planned to raise the issue at this Tuesday's board meeting.
"What happened in my opinion was sneaky and underhand," he said, "and I am going to ask the board a number of questions. The first and biggest one is why they did not inform the clubs that they intended not to hold a vote in the first place. People are angry and I intend to communicate that anger."
A statement was prepared, and after a week of anger and frustration expressed by some clubs in public and others in private, it seemed they had found an issue to gather around this Tuesday night.
Then, reality bit. Last Wednesday night Cork minor footballers played Waterford in Fermoy, and in the absence of a decent game the upcoming fireworks dominated the talk. O'Brien was interviewed on local radio on Thursday but then began to reflect on the wisdom of his stance.
Aside from their own games, part of Killavullen's staple income is the regular flow of games assigned to their ground by the Cork county board. Might there be an adverse reaction to an aggressive stance against the county board's procedures? It wasn't a risk worth taking. There was certainly no pressure applied by the club, and none by the county board. They didn't need to. The issue was drop ped and O'Brien stepped down as delegate.
Nobody should be surprised. The aura of supreme power that Cork county board has thrived on for years allowed them to deliver a No vote on Rule 42 against the will of their members and promises to protect them now. A bigger problem might be the growing distance between their views and those who elect them.
A poll canvassing 77 of the 82 Cork units that would have had a vote at the county board meeting showed 44 had been mandated to vote in support of a change to Rule 42, with just 10 committed to a No vote. The support for change traversed every historical and geographical boundary. Aghabullogue, who provided Cork with its first All-Ireland hurling title, voted Yes. Old money city concerns like Nemo Rangers, St Finbarr's and Glen Rovers, voted Yes.
The presidential candidate Christy Cooney had opposed any change but Youghal, his home club, were ready to vote Yes. Bride Rovers, home of John Arnold, a loud opponent of change, also supported an alteration to Rule 42.
But weeks of preparation and debate were for nought. Having watched their county board find a procedural route to a No vote, dozens of Cork clubs felt disenfranchised. Yet with Killavullen's withdrawal and a lack of support from some of the biggest clubs in the country, there is no likelihood of criticism, or a vote of no confidence in the board on Tuesday night. Some clubs had planned to row in behind Killavullen once the discussion opened but nobody will now wish to be exposed in no-man 's land.
The agitation stemmed from Cork county chairman Jim Forbes' ruling at the key Tuesday meeting that, in the absence of the junior clubs, who do not have explicit representation at county board meetings other than their two divisional delegates, such a fundamental policy change could only be debated at annual convention, where all of Cork's 260 clubs could be represented. The vast majority of delegates accepted the chairman's ruling and also supported his proposal that Cork take as their mandate a vote held at the 2003 county convention, which saw a large majority against change.
In the light of the clubs' voting intentions it was a breathtaking show of arrogance, and when held up to the light, the county board's case looks severely flawed. Is a change to Rule 42 any more fundamental than the abolition of Rule 21, the ban on Northern Ireland security forces joining the GAA, or an alteration of the inter-county football and hurling championships, all issues discussed at regular county board meetings before Cork took a position on them? Forbes cited the absence of the junior clubs as a reason for not taking a vote, yet many of those clubs had been quietly neutralised. Six weeks before Congress junior clubs in north Cork attempted repeatedly to get the matter discussed at their divisional board meetings but were rebuffed every time. The Wednesday before the county board meeting, one delegate was told the matter wouldn't be put to a vote, rendering any debate futile.
"They kept deferring and deferring it," said one north Cork board member, "then they wouldn't allow it. If clubs had spoken on the way they felt all, bar maybe one, would've been in favour of getting rid of it. We weren't listened to and we were given no chance to be listened to."
Some discussed the issue, others didn't. Other clubs knew up to six weeks before the debate that a vote wouldn't take place, and there are more anomalies. "We received documentation directly from the county board about the motions," says one intermediate club official from mid-Cork, "stating that all the motions would be discussed. Even then the documentation was sent out fairly late.
"It didn't surprise us the way it happened but what disappointed most of us was the way delegates went against the wishes of their own clubs in the meeting."
The 2003 mandate also stands on shaky ground. A debate on Rule 42 hadn't been scheduled on the clár at Cork's annual convention that year, and after it was proposed for discussion by Midleton delegate Sean Keohane some of the contributions were poisonous. A vote was taken and opposition to any change to Rule 42 carried, but in the next two years opinion clearly changed. It hardly stands to reason that long before the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road was announced and the temporary motions from Sligo and Clare were even thought of, Cork took their stance for 2005. Many of those who spoke to keep Rule 42 in 2003 would have changed their minds two weeks ago.
Without the will among the club delegates to question the board's exc utive this week it seems the issue will be brushed away, but the gap between the county exc utive and many clubs continues to yawn. One club has seen three delegates opt out in four years because of sheer frustration at the way the board operates. More and more meetings are held in camera, the media's presence rationed down. As GAA business becomes more transparent at every level around the country, Cork retains a strict hierarchy of knowledge and an indifference among the clubs to challenging that structure.
"A lot of fellas will go on Tuesday to see what Frank (Murphy, county secretary ) says," said one west Cork board member, "and just sit back with a smirk on their face."
The demise of Rule 42 and the debate that accompanied it was the most visible indication of the social and generational changes taking place within the GAA. If Cork wish to catch up, the clubs' actions on Tuesday night could be crucial.
Most people are well aware of what can go on at the CCB but are ye mice or men? If you are being misled and if democratic procedures are not being adhered to you can do something about it. What steps did those clubs whose views were ignored do about it? What did those clubs whose delegates voted against instructions do about it? I know what would happen in mine if something like this went on.
But no matter how you look at it the CCB are still the governing body within the county with the financial and administritive responsibility for running teams and the ultimate power must lie with them.
If they mess up its in the Clubs hands to deal with it by due procedure. This hand ringing and 'were all afriad of FM' nonsense 'but we can't say it out loud' must stop
Are you really trying to tell us that this whole trouble has been caused by FM and he can hypnotise 100% of the Cork county board delegates into voting for him ???? If so, he must be some man ! ;D
The GAA is a democratic organisation. The county board is made up of delegates from clubs and officers are elected every year at convention. They make decisions on county teams on behalf of Cork.
WHO ELECTED DONAL OG CUSSACK TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS?
Himself ??? ;)
It deeply regrets the orchestrated media campaign which has personalised the issue in relation to Ted Holland. He is a decent, honourable man who has given long and distinguished service to the GAA.
It was conceded by the players involved in negotiations that Ted Holland's competence to fulfil his role as Coach is not in question.
Extract from the statement from CB.
Pity the hurlers wouldn't go along with this.
Quote from: Aristotle Flynn on February 07, 2008, 05:33:43 PM
The GAA is a democratic organisation. The county board is made up of delegates from clubs and officers are elected every year at convention. They make decisions on county teams on behalf of Cork.
WHO ELECTED DONAL OG CUSSACK TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS?
The players i assume
He must have been the representative of the local union ??
So what are the players willing to compromise on anyway?? Anyone know?
Cork release details of deal offered
Thursday, 7 February 2008 17:44
The Cork County Board has published the components of the deal offered by the board to the players' representatives in an effort to break the impasse in the players' strike.
The six-page statement outlines the concessions with regard to managerial selection policy and the long-term proposals over how managers and selectors would be appointed in the future.
Negotiations, being brokered by Kieran Mulvey of the Labour Relations Commission and the new GAA Director-General Paraic Duffy, ended last night after player representatives rejected a final set of proposals which had been put to them.
The dispute centres on the appointment by the Cork GAA Board of a manager and selectors to the county's senior football team, at a time when the players were in dispute with the board over those appointments.
Full statement on behalf of Cork County Board on Cork
Players' Dispute
The Cork County Board of the GAA have stated that it is deeply disappointed that the protracted discussions aimed at resolving the above dispute which has involved Mr Kieran Mulvey, Chairman of the Labour Relations Commission, as an Independent Facilitator, and the Director-General of the GAA, Paraic Duffy, has not resulted in a settlement.
A Memorandum of Understanding, which was accepted at a previous session of the negotiations, was further enhanced with additional proposals from Mr Mulvey and Mr Duffy, which the negotiators on behalf of the Cork County Board accepted as being the basis for a reasonable settlement.
The following key points make up the basis of the proposed agreement between Cork County Board and the players' representatives which was put forward by Kieran Mulvey and Paraic Duffy on 7 February 2008.
A. Future Engagement
1. Establish a consultative committee representative of the Players and The Board (six representatives from each) to meet quarterly to discuss and agree on matters received from either side relative to the players' welfare and interests and issues that arose in 2007. The first meeting shall take place within one month of this agreement.
2. The committee shall be chaired by an independent person agreed by the Mediator.
3. The procedures, minutes and recorded conclusions shall be undertaken and determined by the chairperson.
B. Current Impasse
The Players and the Board both acknowledge that recent events regarding the procedures adopted in appointing a new county senior football coach has led to fundamental differences between them.
Without ascribing any judgement on the relative views of the parties on this matter, and in the interests of achieving an agreeable solution to the current impasse, it is recommended that:
1. Appointments Committee(s) Sept./Oct. 2008
The County Board negotiating team will recommend to County Committee 2008 that the Appointments Committee(s) of September/October 2008 consist of seven members. This will include two current (2008) players and five others determined by the County Board.
2. Review in September/October 2008 of method of appointment of selectors
The County Board negotiating team will recommend that the Executive Committee recommends to the County Committee that the appointed coaches in September/October 2008 be given the right to choose their own selectors. This situation will be monitored by the proposed Consultative Committee under the Independent Chairman.
3. Current Football Management
Notwithstanding that the senior football coach and selectors have been appointed by the County Board for a two-year term, it is recommended that these appointments be reviewed by the Appointments Committee at the end of Cork's involvement in the 2008 Championship.
4. Player Representation on County Committee
A players' representative shall be appointed on the county committee (Board), with full speaking rights.
C. Relationships
A number of 'relationship' issues have emerged in the course of the current standoff between the parties. Inevitably in such a dispute, and with its high-profile nature, certain positions are adopted and articulated in the promotion or defence of decisions taken by either side.
In order to surmount these immediate difficulties it is agreed that:
1. An additional selector be appointed to the panel of football selectors and that individual would have the support of the players (but would not be a former manager or member of the previous management team).
2. The current team manager to ensure player engagement on team performance on a regular basis throughout the league/championship.
3. No discriminatory/disciplinary action will take place against any player on the current panel in regard to this current dispute.
4. No further adverse media comment is made relating to any person (player or administrator).
5. Both sides to engage immediately on building a new and positive working relationship between them.
6. To give effect to the above, a suitably qualified independent person shall be appointed by the mediator to work with the Board and the Players to address some existing issues between the sides so as to resolve internal relationships at Board/Player level with the objective of eliminating differences on operational issues which may exist between them.
A very key aspect of the Recommendations was that notwithstanding that the Senior Football Coach and Selectors had been appointed by the County Board for a two-year term, it was recommended that these appointments be reviewed by the Appointments Committee at the end of Cork's involvement in the 2008 Championship.
It is important to note that the players during negotiations were prepared to accept Teddy Holland as Coach for the year 2008, with a review at the end of the Championship Season, but the Players' Representatives then indicated that they wanted the four Selectors appointed by the Board to be removed. The removal of the four Selectors was unacceptable to the Co. Board Negotiating team.
Ted Holland & Senior Football Selectors
The County Board states that both Teddy Holland and his Selectors were democratically appointed in accordance with the Rules of the Association.
It deeply regrets the orchestrated media campaign which has personalised the issue in relation to Ted Holland. He is a decent, honourable man who has given long and distinguished service to the GAA.
It was conceded by the players involved in negotiations that Ted Holland's competence to fulfil his role as Coach is not in question.
The County Board fully supports the appointed Coach and Selectors and calls for the campaign against them to cease.
The Board appeals to the players to consider again the Memorandum of Understanding prepared by Messrs Mulvey and Duffy and to put the proposals therein to their colleagues for decision.
The County Board expresses its deep appreciation to Mr Kieran Mulvey and Mr Paraic Duffy for their selfless and trojan efforts to bring a resolution to the dispute and for their continued interest.
Roibeard O Riain,
P.R.O. Cork County Board
Quote from: orangeman on February 07, 2008, 07:13:12 PM
Cork release details of deal offered
Thursday, 7 February 2008 17:44
The Cork County Board has published the components of the deal offered by the board to the players' representatives in an effort to break the impasse in the players' strike.
..... but the Players' Representatives then indicated that they wanted the four Selectors appointed by the Board to be removed. The removal of the four Selectors was unacceptable to the Co. Board Negotiating team.
Wasnt the whole point of the strike to protest against the new policy of the Board appointing the Selectors?
How in the name of ******* did they think that the players would buy into the selectors remaining on?
What input did Holland have in to the selection of selectors as he requested??
There is one thing for SURE if any Ulster team had refused to play a scheduled NFL game they would have been thrown OUT!!!!! Frank Murphy would have implemented the Official Guide and that would have been the end of it.
It looks as if Cork will not be playing in the NFL now which is a real shame.
Sod the NFL, it'll rumble on perfectly fine without a county that have won it a mere five times. But what about the NHL? Dublin's only home match in the hurling will be against Antrim.
QuoteHow in the name of ******* did they think that the players would buy into the selectors remaining on?
I assume they thought that the reasonable proposal to solve the problem on a long term basis would convince the players and perhaps they thought that the players might have been late converts to democracy. Unfortunately the players need a head or heads to justify their stance. So much for their guff about doing all thiis for the future of Cork hurling and football.
QuoteThere is one thing for SURE if any Ulster team had refused to play a scheduled NFL game they would have been thrown OUT!!!!! Frank Murphy would have implemented the Official Guide and that would have been the end of it.
Spot on and Cork should have been thrown out when the failed to fulfill the Meath fixture.
QuoteWhat input did Holland have in to the selection of selectors as he requested
He was given the power to approve the selectors which he did. You should remember this is not about selectors or who appoints them
QuoteIt looks as if Cork will not be playing in the NFL now which is a real shame
No shame at all. If it was W'Meath or Cavan not to metion Ros there would not be any of this fuss. They would have been turfed out, there would be no sympathy for the players and in our case we would have plenty on here advising them to stick to pool!! This row in Cork has got attention way beyond what it deserves and has probably helped to swell already swollen egos on all sides
Actuallly the whole row according to the players is about who selects selectors!! The co board wanted to bring in a system where they would pick the selectors and the players want a system where the manager picks his selectors. There is more to it behind the scenes but that is the official gripe and initial reason for the dispute!!
Quote from: Tatler Jack on February 07, 2008, 08:51:24 PM
If it was W'Meath or Cavan not to metion Ros there would not be any of this fuss. They would have been turfed out,
We might be turfed out yet for not being up to the standard required the way things are going.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 07, 2008, 09:20:37 PM
Quote from: Tatler Jack on February 07, 2008, 08:51:24 PM
If it was W'Meath or Cavan not to metion Ros there would not be any of this fuss. They would have been turfed out,
We might be turfed out yet for not being up to the standard required the way things are going.
Would have happened a long time ago if this was their basis for turfing teams out
QuoteWould have happened a long time ago if this was their basis for turfing teams out
Have you no drop of mercy in your veins Stephenite for us lesser mortals :P
Something serious must have happened during Billy Morgans reign whene the CCB decided that they would select the Manager and as a seperate act decide who his selectors would be. I am not aware of any other County Board in this 'day and age' that use this proces. I would have a wide knowedge of selection procedures and the appointment of Managers and I do not know of any Manager who would even be expected to consider this procedure.
Jesus, Mulvey fair went to town on Sean Og for the interview with Humphries.
Any statement from the players after their meeting last night?
Quote from: Real Talk on February 07, 2008, 11:44:52 PM
Something serious must have happened during Billy Morgans reign whene the CCB decided that they would select the Manager and as a seperate act decide who his selectors would be. I am not aware of any other County Board in this 'day and age' that use this proces. I would have a wide knowedge of selection procedures and the appointment of Managers and I do not know of any Manager who would even be expected to consider this procedure.
I think the Waterford footballers are the only other team subject to this. I could be wrong I suppose, but certainly most other succesful teams would allow the manager control over whom he works with.
The real issue here though is the breakdown between the CB and the players, and what the reasons for that are. Is it meglomania on the CB part, or is it a 'too big for their boots' mentality on the players' part. Either way, that should be the real story. I'd love to know what those issues were, which are mentioned in
Quote1. Establish a consultative committee representative of the Players and The Board (six representatives from each) to meet quarterly to discuss and agree on matters received from either side relative to the players' welfare and interests and issues that arose in 2007. The first meeting shall take place within one month of this agreement.
Cork players furious at 'spin'
Friday, 8 February 2008 09:24
Cork footballers and hurlers have stated that they are furious with the way that recent discussions have been treated by the county board and with the board's 'spin, misinformation and leaks'.
They have reiterated that they desperately want to play for the county but won't do so until both Teddy Holland and the selectors are out of office.
It seems certain that Sunday's hurling league opener between Cork and Kilkenny will be postponed and unless there is a resolution of the dispute next week Cork will then be excluded from both leagues and relegated for next season.
In a statement released to the Irish Examiner last night, the Cork players strongly rejected the claim that they would play for Holland, insisting: 'We are furious at the spin and misinformation put out by the board, which said that we would accept Teddy Holland as football manager - which is totally and utterly untrue.
'There have been a number of attempts to split the players throughout this process, which have failed. Our position is and always has been: we are totally united in our opposition to Teddy Holland and his selectors and to the system recently adopted.'
The situation is actually get worse and the sides are now more entrenched than ever.
QuoteI think the Waterford footballers are the only other team subject to this. I could be wrong I suppose, but certainly most other succesful teams would allow the manager control over whom he works with.
No your right AZ the Waterford footballers are the only team to use the 'new Cork system'.
QuoteThe real issue here though is the breakdown between the CB and the players, and what the reasons for that are. Is it meglomania on the CB part, or is it a 'too big for their boots' mentality on the players' part. Either way, that should be the real story.
To a degree your right AZ but I think you underestimate the Holland issue, the players aren't only going after Holland because it would be some kind of victory but because they can't actually play for him. He broke the first rule of management (loosing the dressingroom) by accepting the job, from that moment on he was a manager without a team. I also feel your doing a dis-service to the players by suggesting they should be going after the CB and FM rather than TH and the selectors.
First off the CB started this fight by initiating an unwanted change in selectorial proceedures, so the players had to tackle this issue first. Since this is still currently unresolved they must continue to focus on this. Taking on the CB and FM is a much bigger battle and should be left for another time. Many posters have expressed skeptisim at the spinelessness of delegates and the power of FM, but believe it or not that is a fairly accurate description of the situation. Though in fairness to both Frank and the delegates, he is one of the most able administrators in the GAA so if I were a club delegate I'd like him to remain as county secretary but to keep out of IC squad issues.
Getting fed up with this circus now.
To hear the sentiments expressed from both sides through the media, you'd swear there were inhumane killings occuring. Both parties (players and county board) should get real; your behaviour and antics over the last 3 months have brought disgrace to the association.Its just a sport at the end of the day. Its there for enjoyment.Get a grip lads.
If we want to be at war with something, there are more pressing issues that Irish people should be taking to the streets and voicing concern through the media: our so called 'health' service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007-2008_Cork_players_strike
Anyone like to help fill this up a little?
All the give appears to be from the CCB with very little if anything from the players and becoming more and more apparent that the real target is FM and a County Board and team management in trawl to the players.
At this stage the County Board have no choice but to stand firm and give no further ground to the players. Looking at other sites it appears that ordinary Club members are pissed off with the behaviour of both sides but feel players have gone to far.
If the situation is as discribed with a CB mesmerised into total submission to the will of their paid employee its a sad reflection on Cork GAA people and time for a root and branch reform of the entire unit from the selection of Delegatesprepared to do their duty and speak out when required to an executive who follow the lead of the delegates rather than the other way round.
Small Ads:
Due to change of plans, Field To Let for silage or hay for the coming year.
Can also be used for grazing.
Contact Frank Murphy - 021 02020202
Now I won't back down, I'm going to stand my ground ..........................................
I wonder what the corporate moguls at O2 think of all this?
At what stage next week do they need to confirm the game versus Dublin will or wont go ahead?
Surely they will need to advise by midweek at the latest to allow the opposition to make arrangement and prepare adequately.
If I'm not mistaken if they miss the Dublin game thats it, they are out and relegated, having missed two fixtures, is this right?
While this whole saga reflects well on no-one and is certainly divisive now and probably for some time to come. I think there are also some positives for the Association, there is now an opportunity for the GAA to re-evaluate it's structures, the club delegates system needs to be looked at. I'm not sure what the procedures are now but in this time of easy communication, would it not be possible for clubs to submit proposals via email to the CB. The CB then compiles all issues to be raised at the upcoming CB meeting and emails this back to all the clubs in time for the clubs to formulate their opinions on contentious issues.
I do think that the general public will have revised their thinking on players and their rights to strike etc
QuoteI do think that the general public will have revised their thinking on players and their rights to strike etc
Well my information is that support for the players is growing, while people are sick of the whole issue they are getting behind the players in growing numbers.
Quote from: Zulu on February 08, 2008, 02:28:29 PM
QuoteI do think that the general public will have revised their thinking on players and their rights to strike etc
Well my information is that support for the players is growing, while people are sick of the whole issue they are getting behind the players in growing numbers.
Is this support from within the clubs, the media, or the general public?
Not trying to catch you out, honest question.
Zulu, what I have heard is that the longer this goes on, the more people realise the Count Board is a seriously flawed and idiosyncratic (to be polite) body. However, the players are seen to have jumped the gun, and are far from blameless in the whole fiasco.
I'd definitely say the mood has changed from 'The cheek of them, how dare they go on strike over a county board vote' to, 'The county board are chancers'.
More a case of the county board losing support, than players gaining it.
The way I feel is that the players should have bitten the bullet and went gung ho with all the problems, highlighting the unhealthy nature of FM's position. I think they clouded the issue by focussing on this one straw that broke the camel's back. I realise it would be a hard battle to win, but surely, if they have a groundswell of support, they would be joined by ordinary club members and non-players, making it a much more populist issue.
If things are as bad as they seem down there, a chance has been lost.
AZ, I know what you're saying and in large part I'd agree with you but it is the clubs who should be leading the charge here not the players. In my experience many clubs are spineless and worse still petty minded, i.e. some clubs won't work with some other clubs because of local rivalries etc. I'm sick of hearing clubs around the country give out about IC managers and the effect that the IC season is having on the club scene. If you want your club championship run in an organised fashion throughout the summer propose a structure during the winter, debate it and agree on something that allows the IC team decent preparation but not the ability to ride roughshod over the club championships.
I'm not involved in club administration long but already I'm so frustrated with the incompetence and laziness of many people. Everyone bithches, everyone cries crocodile tears for the clubs but if you bring even mildly radical proposals to the table you'll invariably fail. Until clubs start taking on responsibility for the running of the GAA in their counties and stop blaming everyone but themselves we will continue to see conflict in counties. The only difference between Cork and other counties is the Cork players have a bit of balls.
It also seems as if the County Board in Cork are way more powerful and unanswerable than other county boards. I think that's the real problem.
I know we've had problems with things in Offaly, for example, but the players are looked after, and officers change frequently based on different elections etc. I think it's exaggerating a bit to say that 'The only difference between Cork and other counties is the Cork players have a bit of balls.'
Perhaps the other counties are more sensible in the way they work with the players?
I would think that clubs will be very fearful of the county players setting a precedent where they are seen to be dictating to county boards - clubs will not want the same to happen in their respective units.
Quote from: orangeman on February 08, 2008, 03:13:29 PM
I would think that clubs will be very fearful of the county players setting a precedent where they are seen to be dictating to county boards - clubs will not want the same to happen in their respective units.
Orangeman, I started out on more or less the same wavelength as you, but from what I've read this particular county board and it's delegates pay no heed to the wishes of the clubs anyway.
I'm taking as truthful the stories mentioned above.
I'm surprised that the clubs and club members have let things get so bad down there, but it seems as if that's what has happened.
QuotePerhaps the other counties are more sensible in the way they work with the players?
Yes to a degree but I've been involved with the GAA in three different counties (including Cork) and clubs moan about cancelled matches etc. all the time. And who do they blame? Invariably the IC manager, but who actually has the power to cancel games? The CB and who should the CB be answerable to? The clubs. The back scratching, arse licking, me fein attitude and croynism of the club delegate system drives me nuts. Maybe some counties are better run and their are some great people in all counties but I'd love to see a major shake up in how the GAA is run. People talk about democracy in the GAA but people like FM build up power bases within the administrative side of the GAA and 'in your face' tactics like the ones the Cork players are engaging in are the best way to go when CB's finally cross the line.
QuoteI would think that clubs will be very fearful of the county players setting a precedent where they are seen to be dictating to county boards - clubs will not want the same to happen in their respective units.
In any club I have been involved in the senior players did have a say in how the club was run, and IMO that is how it should be, everyone with an interest in the is represented with the primary goal of the club to provide games for players of all abilities and ages.
QuoteOrangeman, I started out on more or less the same wavelength as you, but from what I've read this particular county board and it's delegates pay no heed to the wishes of the clubs anyway.
I'm taking as truthful the stories mentioned above.
I'm surprised that the clubs and club members have let things get so bad down there, but it seems as if that's what has happened.
In fairness AZ it is a shame that there isn't anyone on this board from Cork with a view opposite to those of myself, TBT and a few others as it would lead to a better balanced debate. I've tried to be balanced and I'm sure I'm being a tad unfair on FM and the CCB in some regards but from what i personnally know and from what I've been told by others with delgate/CB experience what you've read is close enough to the truth. But i'm really fed up with what passes for democracy and I hope this situation can be the catalyst for a major change in the dynamic between administrators and players/coaches/supporters etc.
QuoteIn fairness AZ it is a shame that there isn't anyone on this board from Cork with a view opposite to those of myself, TBT and a few others as it would lead to a better balanced debate. I've tried to be balanced and I'm sure I'm being a tad unfair on FM and the CCB in some regards but from what i personnally know and from what I've been told by others with delgate/CB experience what you've read is close enough to the truth.
I live in Cork and my involvement in the GAA is in Cork and I have made a few posts on this topic with a very different view to Zulu. Zulu is genuine in his comments, probably frustrated with lots of things (as a lot of GAA people are) but I think has swallowed the players line a bit too much. If Frank is a problem so is Donal Og and a few others. I still believe that the motion whileunwise was not a devious plot to get power back and to force Billy out - it was a knee jerk reaction (unwise) to frustration with the way the club scene has to play second fiddle to the county teams. The reaction of the players by threatening a strike (originally a few) made the situation much worse. I firmly believe had the strike threat not beenmade that the original vote would have been over turned. The unwise media campaign by the players (O'Connor, Gould and Sean Og) in the run up to the talks made finding a solution more difficult. The stance of the players in holding out for "heads" despite the fact that they have been given a solution that should address all the long term problems shows that they are more interested in winning this row than winning games this year.
Wearing my outsiders hat I believe that both sides have damaged the image of the Association and should have been told long ago by HQ to sort it out. Bringing in Mulvey was ridicolous and way over the top. This is just an amateur sport and there is a need for all involved to get a bit of perspective and grow up. Lock a few CB officials and players in a room and tell them the door will not be opened unil they sort it.
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So the co board came out with the concessions that they allegedly made. Will the players come out with the concessions that they have made?? Have they made any at all ?? why wouldn`t they want people to see that they are reasonable people??Given a choice between believing the co board or the players, I am sure with the co board`s track record a lot of people would believe the players version but at least give the public a choice of versions to believe!! Is this so unreasonable??
Like Tatler Jack I'm based in Cork but can look at things fro an outsider's point of view. It is very rare that a confrontation is provoked where one side is completely right and the other wrong. I've pasted below an article from today's Irish Examiner with an interview by Kieran Mulvey. I get the discinct impression that he is exasperated but after years in the smoke filled rooms of Industrial relations this must be a familiar feeling. Underlined/emphasised text is by yours truely.
Where too now?
08 February 2008
Mulvey: Even wars have peace
LABOUR Relations Committee chief executive Kieran Mulvey has expressed sadness that personality clashes derailed talks aimed at resolving the long-running Cork GAA dispute.
Both senior hurling and football panels remain on strike as the row over the selection of senior management intensified this week after the players withdrew from negotiations.
Mulvey and new GAA Director General Paraic Duffy met with representatives of all the parties on Tuesday and Wednesday in an effort to end the crisis ahead of Cork's opening NHL game against All-Ireland champions Kilkenny. The footballers' first NFL clash against Meath has already fallen victim to the impasse.
Though Mulvey claimed that "an extraordinary amount of progress was made," the players felt otherwise and the LRC boss once more returned to Dublin without a solution to the crisis.
The Roscommon native has not ruled out a return to the talks table but yesterday spoke of his frustration at the lack of a deal and the difficulties between the parties.
"I feel desperately sorry in this dispute for the way it has transpired — that personality has taken over in some cases from what needs to be resolved."
He added: "What I would like — if there was any space again in this dispute — can we move away from criticisms of individuals and concentrate on the issue?"
He told RTE Radio: "In the engagements over a number of weekends and night sessions, we made an extraordinary amount of progress. The Ard-Stiúrthóir of Cumann Luthchleas Gael, Paraic Duffy was with me for the last two days and I thought his authority and position assisted the process immeasurably."
Mulvey however did not wish to divulge details of what was on offer to both parties.
"That is for the parties themselves but from my experience of this business, an extraordinary amount of progress has been made. There is one outstanding issue and that is an extremely difficult issue — and that issue has not been resolved as yet."
Mulvey also spoke of his annoyance at a number of outside factors, including Sean Og Ó hAilpin's interview where he called on County secretary Frank Murphy to resign. "A number of things have been said publicly and in print that have made the resolution of this dispute almost impossible even while I was in negotiations."
Referring specifically to the Ó hAilpin interview, he said: "That didn't help. I was sitting at a set of negotiations and an Irish Times weekend article arrived on the desk. In any other set of negotiations people would have walked out of the room.
"Thankfully I persuaded the management and Frank not to — though it would have been understandable in the circumstances. It has been followed since by other articles which has made the position impossible."
And he slammed: "If you are trying to deal with an issue that relates to principle — personality has no role in principle."
However he was keen not to apportion blame: "Both the players and their negotiating team and the Board and their negotiating team have made every effort to resolve this dispute. They have engaged very constructively. The players have a very strong principled position about how the manager was appointed and they feel that a breach of trust took place about that.
"The Board have made the very, very clear and unequivocal point that they are a democratic organisation and they operate under their rules and the wishes of their delegates who are mandated or who vote at conventions.
"There lies the difficulty. I'm not accrediting any point of view to both of those."
"I am aware in the course of these negotiations that these individuals have given and dedicated their lives largely, in a lot of cases, unpaid to the GAA."
Mulvey expects both parties to view the document which was presented midweek for further consideration. But he would not be drawn on suggestions that the players' representatives should have canvassed the opinions of their colleagues before they withdrew from talks on Wednesday night.
"We have left the players to decide on their position in accordance with their own arrangements. It is not for I or for anyone else to decide as to how they conduct their business."
Despite this latest setback, Mulvey is adamant that this can be resolved. Whether that can be achieved before the commencement of the championships remains to be seen.
"This dispute has to be resolved," he said defiantly. "One of the reasons we intervened again this week was that time was running out in terms of the Kilkenny match scheduled for this Sunday. All disputes are resolved in the end. There has to be compromise between the parties.
"Both Paraic Duffy and I believe we have established a reasonable degree of compromise. I would like people to give calm considerate reflection to what we have said to both sides privately and confidentially. Hopefully both sides will do that.
"You never say never in the business of trying to get a solution to a problem.
"To put it at its most grotesque, even wars have peace."
Throw the dickheads out of the league(s)
make them start in division 4
end of story
QuoteI live in Cork and my involvement in the GAA is in Cork and I have made a few posts on this topic with a very different view to Zulu. Zulu is genuine in his comments, probably frustrated with lots of things (as a lot of GAA people are) but I think has swallowed the players line a bit too much.
Yeah sorry TJ forgot about your posts, though I'd dispute your point about me swallowing the player's line. While I have constantly and vigorously argued the players side, it isn't that I'm blind to their failings (I hope) rather I felt that most posters were defending the CB and castigating the players. I was putting forward the case for the players and trying to put some more balance in the debate. I do believe the players to be in the right and I do feel that the CB have behaved irresponsibly but it isn't a black and white issue and there is enough blame to go around. Teddy Holland is by all accounts a decent man but for the good of Cork GAA he must go, it's not about loosing face at this stage for either side, it's about getting Cork players back on the pitch. The choice is now simple for the CB either convince Teddy to step down and get the current squads back playing or move on with Teddy and try and get a new panel together.
Quote from: Zulu on February 08, 2008, 11:11:35 PM
Teddy Holland is by all accounts a decent man but for the good of Cork GAA he must go, it's not about loosing face at this stage for either side, it's about getting Cork players back on the pitch. The choice is now simple for the CB either convince Teddy to step down and get the current squads back playing or move on with Teddy and try and get a new panel together.
i cant believe this - cork are a laughing stock at the moment - derry have a poor management in place but the players are getting on with the job
if the players dont like the way the gaa operates let them play soccer - see how many big holidays they get then
Quote from: Tubberman on November 13, 2007, 11:03:03 AM
Ridiculous that a manager can't choose his own selectors. This is one strike i'd support. County board should be kept away from team selection as much as possible
This is something that I totally agree, its weird how this whole process works! I just don't understand how a manager cant choose his own selectors!
A Manager choosing his own selectors is fine in so far as it goes but the problem nowi in generall is that it is costing so much to prepare teams or rather so much now is being spent preparing teams that (irrespective of internal Corkonian wars) county boards have a rep on the management team to control/monitor spending. Look what happened in Roscommon & Westmeath when proper financail controls are not in place and listen to all the Co, tres. crying about the costs of intercounty football & hurling.
Finance has had to play some part in the Cork row.
that's a subsidiary issue Zoyler used by the Cork County Board to deflect attention away from the real issue and reason for the stalemate-which is that mnageers can't pick their own selectors in Cork. It may have been a democratic decision but it was a wrong one. and the players are fully entitled to take the democratic decision not to play under those conditions.- but they should ahve withdrawn not gone on strike- if they had the Cork County Board would be alaughing stock-that was a major own goal by the players. I hear the sponsors in Cork are getting very close to the edge on this one- wouldn't surprise me if they pull it.
I know we've been warned here not to suggest that the GPA has anything to do with this and not to suspect there's any 'player power' element to this dispute. But am I wrong in being suspicious, given the carry-on of the players' spokesmen in the last few days? The 'not-an-inch' attitude, the calling for heads, the personalising of the dispute have sabotaged any chance of a resolution and even Kieran Mulvey has clearly pointed to this behaviour as the barrier to a settlement.
But what has attracted very little comment is the fact that the players' representatives appear not to have even taken the latest proposals back to the entire players' group. I don't think I'm being alarmist in stating that this suggests undue influence being exerted by the players' negotiators. At the very least we could have expected that the proposals would have been put to a secret ballot of the players.
Quote from: Hardy on February 09, 2008, 11:15:52 AM
I know we've been warned here not to suggest that the GPA has anything to do with this and not to suspect there's any 'player power' element to this dispute. But am I wrong in being suspicious, given the carry-on of the players' spokesmen in the last few days? The 'not-an-inch' attitude, the calling for heads, the personalising of the dispute have sabotaged any chance of a resolution and even Kieran Mulvey has clearly pointed to this behaviour as the barrier to a settlement.
But what has attracted very little comment is the fact that the players's representatives appear not to have even taken the latest proposals back to the entire players' group. I don't think I'm being alarmist in stating that this suggests undue influence being exerted by the players' negotiators. At the very least we could have expected that the proposals would have been put to a secret ballot of the players.
Hardy - What tends to happen is that there are usual bottom line conditions that have to be met or agreed before it goes back - ie if the bare minimum ie Hollands removal isn't in place then there is no need to take it back for a ballot.
QuoteI know we've been warned here not to suggest that the GPA has anything to do with this and not to suspect there's any 'player power' element to this dispute. But am I wrong in being suspicious, given the carry-on of the players' spokesmen in the last few days? The 'not-an-inch' attitude, the calling for heads, the personalising of the dispute have sabotaged any chance of a resolution and even Kieran Mulvey has clearly pointed to this behaviour as the barrier to a settlement.
You're probably right Hardy, there is an obvious connection between the GPA and the Cork players and as a players representative body the GPA will be keeping a close eye on things down there. But bringing the GPA into this only muddies the water, we all accept there are bigger issues at play here and they will have to be addressed in due course, but Cork teams can get back playing if smaller ones are addressed first. The players aren't the only party to personalise the issues, Teddy Holland and the CB brought personalities into the debate first. Whatever your overall opinion on the rights and wrongs in this issue anyone who argues that Teddy shouldn't resign now is ignoring the realities of the situation and has no interest in finding a viable solution.
But what happened between the time Mulvey and Duffy went to bed believing they had worked out a resolution with both sides and the next morning, when the players' reps announced there was no deal? That proposal included Teddy staying and, in return, the players getting a (much larger than they asked for) say in management. Whoever was negotiating with Mulvey and Duffy on behalf of the players agreed that proposal. As far as we can tell, somebody else vetoed it before it even got to the wider group of players. Who was that?
QuoteBut what happened between the time Mulvey and Duffy went to bed believing they had worked out a resolution with both sides and the next morning, when the players' reps announced there was no deal? That proposal included Teddy staying and, in return, the players getting a (much larger than they asked for) say in management. Whoever was negotiating with Mulvey and Duffy agreed that proposal. As far as we can tell, somebody else vetoed it before it even got to the wider group of players. Who was that?
Hardy it is my understanding that the player representatives brought back the proposal to the players, they then discussed and rejected them because Teddy stepping down wasn't included. The players also have since come out and stated that they never accepted they'd play under TH as manager. Teddy Holland is the issue here.
Lads I'm sure this has been stated before but I havent been on here in a while and I don't fancy trawling through 40 odd pages so...
Most people agree that the system of not letting a manager picking his selectors is wrong but it had to be voted in by club delegates and thus had to have been discussed at the bottom level. Are you telling me if O'Hailpin the HURLER had a serious issue with it he wouldn't have been able to influence his club delegate to vote against it at the county board meeting or convention!!!
My club has a players rep on the executive who meets the players after training to see if everything is OK if a motion is being made. this is total rubbish.
The county board are s**t stirrers in Cork but there are plenty of them in the players camp too. They deserve each other.
As for the issue of all public going with the players I feel sorry for the Co Board people around the country who are giving just as many hours to the GAA and have to listen to crap about it being all about the players. They are the most important asset of the GAA but they are not the only people who give up their free time.
yes but frank murphy is well compensated for his time Scarlet- so that's not really an argument in my view as he isn't given up any free time -that's what he's paid to do and he's the key man in this debate from the county board's poit of view.
Do the players not have paid jobs as well or does the grant cover them ??
Does Frank Murphy get a sponsored car ?
Ah for Jasus sake Orangeman can you change the bloody record.
" It's the players fault it's the players fault it's the players fault as infinitum....."
THe point was that Frank Murphy gets paid for his GAA activities -players dont.
THe point was that Frank Murphy gets paid for his GAA activities
-players dont
ROSSFAN
Are you absolutely certain that Cork players have never been paid for their services ?? Ever ???
Not even when they go to dinner dances, take training sessions, open shops, GUEST appearances etc ????????
QuoteIn the Cork case the Co Board caused all the fuss as they were afraid to tell Morgan to hump off and brought in a system that they knew would cause him to walk
While I agree with you Rosfan re the pig headedness this belief that the CB hatched a plot to get rid of Morgan by reverting to a regime he would not agree to has little basis in fact and is a case of a conspirancy theory gaining a currency way beyond what happened. First there is a difference between the county executive and the county board that while it includes the executives also includes the Delegates from all the Senior and Intermediate Clubs (Junior Clubs are not represented). I see no evidence that what happened was a plot to get rid of Billy and there is a lot of nonsense on the subject. The Executive had no power to get rid of Morgan and Morgan never made clear if he wanted to stay.
What happened on the first night was the Bob Honohan proposed a motion that the county board appoint the selectors. Whatever about Bob's motives the majority of the club delegates supported the motion wanted the CB to have some say in how games are organised and played in Cork. There is real concern in Cork at the decline in the quality of the club championships, the drift pf players away from GAA and what many see as clubs becoming the poor relations of the county set up.
I believe their decision was hasty and knee jerk but they were not alll party to a grand conspirancy. Some of the media (especially Eugene McGee) keep repeating that this was all a get rid of Billy move, as if in repeating it the speculation will become fact.
Like all County Boards Rosfan the Cork County Board are far from perfect. However neither are they the incompetent and devious lot that some would like to pretend. It suits some of the players now to try and show the CB up in a bad light and portray them as not caring or respecting the players. This is far from the truth and it is time that there was some sense of fairness in the debate. Definitely there are some at CB level whose management and PR skills could do with improvement but equally there are among the present squad of players (hurling and football) some large egos with a huge sense of their own importance.
PS Orangeman; I can confirm that Cork players have got "expenses" for attending medal presentations. I have heard recently that the level of "expenses" has increased considerably but cannot vouch for this
QuoteLike all County Boards Rosfan the Cork County Board are far from perfect. However neither are they the incompetent and devious lot that some would like to pretend.
Of course that's true TJ but the decision to try and change the process of selecting IC managers was certainly one of the two. My own opinion is that it veered towards the devious.
PS Orangeman; I can confirm that Cork players have got "expenses" for attending medal presentations. I have heard recently that the level of "expenses" has increased considerably but cannot vouch for this
Thank you TJ - so they do get paid - no difference then.
QuoteThank you TJ - so they do get paid - no difference then.
No they don't. OM get off the GPA theme it is largely irrelevant here and adds nothing to this discussion, not unless you want everything to turn into a 'grassroots' V GPA debate.
yes but frank murphy is well compensated for his time Scarlet- so that's not really an argument in my view as he isn't given up any free time -that's what he's paid to do and he's the key man in this debate from the county board's poit of view.
Posted on: Today at 01:12:59 PMPosted by: INDIANA
Topic started by INDIANA - Not by me.
So please don't try to bring the GPA into this argument and much less, please don't hold me responsible for talking about them.
Thanks.
What Indiana said is factually true what you said is not. Besides that wasn't the first time you suggested that the players are getting paid.
QuoteThank you TJ - so they do get paid - no difference then.
I am not saying players get paid and I think this is a not relevant to the debate nor is the fact that Frank Murphy is a full time paid official. What I clarified is that I have personal experience of players getting "expenses" to present medals - a general figure rather than based on any specific mileage. In fairness I also have experience of one well known player declining expenses that were offered to him and this player stayed on for quite a long time to talk to the kids.
What Indiana said is factually true what you said is not. Besides that wasn't the first time you suggested that the players are getting paid.
So it's not a fact to say that players have not in the past been paid for their services ?
No player in Cork is paid to play for their county, FM is paid for his service to Cork GAA. If Ulster Bank are willing to pay Sean Og for some photo shoot then that is a different thing. Now OM if you want to debate this issue start a thread about it, but please leave it out of this debate as it has nothing to do withit.
Thank Indiana - I was merely making a reply to Indiana's assertion that Cork players don't any money for their services - we all know they do, so we'll leave it at that and we won't make an issue of it cos it doesn't suit to talk about it.
where have i stated that assertion Orangeman - because i can't see it anywhere? I simply stated that Frank Murphy is an employee of the Cork County Board and is financially compensated by the same body for services provided. The players aren't employees of the Cork County Board now are they? Stick to the relevent facts Orangeman rather than trying to turn this into another GPA debate. And the bottom lines with this issue are:
1- The Cork County Board shouldn't have rail roaded something through to suit their own agenda which is having input into the selection of county teams
2- The players should have withdrawn rather than going on strike- which was a PR own goal of massive proportions .
3- Teddy Holland should never have taken the football job on.
Those for me are key issues and i can't see any of the relevent parties backing down on any of them. All because they wanted Billy Morgan out of the job- i'd love to ask Frank Murphy and the county board. was it really worth it lads?
Did anyone read the Irish Star today when the 'anti establishment' Roy Keane said the Cork palyers were out of line? I doubt he would have said this when he was a player!
But getting back to the debate, the Cork players have a certian time limit to air their views and grievances before the public turn against them. Its up to them to realise when this point is. This occurance WILL happen at some stage or other.
Quote from: INDIANA on February 09, 2008, 10:34:00 PM1- The Cork County Board shouldn't have rail roaded something through to suit their own agenda which is having input into the selection of county teams
I presume you mean that the County Board should have consulted more widely and secured unimpeachable support for their position rather than the unseemly rush which has allowed suggestions that it doesn't represent the will of Cork GAA, which seems fair enough to me. However, I have to ask why you feel the Cork County Board should not have an input into the selection of county teams, even it is only to suit their own agenda. Perhaps we should dispense with managers and selectors and ask last year's panel to pick the team.
I agree Green man - the players can win the sympathy of everyone if they go back and play - the CB will be made to look like the awkward ones who have prolonged this row.
QuoteDid anyone read the Irish Star today when the 'anti establishment' Roy Keane said the Cork palyers were out of line? I doubt he would have said this when he was a player!
But getting back to the debate, the Cork players have a certian time limit to air their views and grievances before the public turn against them. Its up to them to realise when this point is. This occurance WILL happen at some stage or other.
Support for the players is growing I think GM, people are now questioning why the CB felt the need to open this can of worms.
Zulu. Indiana - do you think that Cork's participation is now out of the question at this stage ?
I think the league is certainly gone OM, though I do expect TH to be gone by next weekend at the latest. If that comes to pass then I'd say the championship is still on the cards.
Everyone seems to think they are winning the battle of hearts and minds, sans any evidence, naturally
The league has a fair way to go yet and I reckon the general public will be fairly peeved by April - so I think the players should bite the bullet and go back an sort their differences / grievances out later.
Quote from: Zulu on February 09, 2008, 10:58:00 PM
QuoteDid anyone read the Irish Star today when the 'anti establishment' Roy Keane said the Cork palyers were out of line? I doubt he would have said this when he was a player!
But getting back to the debate, the Cork players have a certian time limit to air their views and grievances before the public turn against them. Its up to them to realise when this point is. This occurance WILL happen at some stage or other.
Support for the players is growing I think GM, people are now questioning why the CB felt the need to open this can of worms.
Zulu, It happened up here as you know. The players dragged it on too long and eventually lost the support of the supporters. It will happen in your place. IT just depends if the players know when to back down.
The players will never beat beat the board. EVER. Thats just the way it is, wheather we agree or not. The committee always wins.
Certianly Sean Og was held up as some sort of hero up this end, I fear that that rep is quikly diminishing. Which is sad, because he was the young boys idol. Trained hard, worked hard, knuckled down to speak the langauge. I fear he's lost all of that up here. HE's graduallly turning into the mercenary, that I am sure he didn't wish want upon himself
Definitely Sean Og was a role model for all of us - but when he called for FM and Holland to resign, the esteem and respect in which he was held is now very much diminished - I'm not sure if I would go as far as to label him a mercenary, but his comments were at least ill judged.
QuoteEveryone seems to think they are winning the battle of hearts and minds, sans any evidence, naturally
I can only go on my own experience here Deiseach but from speaking to lads I know it appears to me to be the case, though I'd accept that is far from proof of any general trend.
QuoteCertianly Sean Og was held up as some sort of hero up this end, I fear that that rep is quikly diminishing. Which is sad, because he was the young boys idol. Trained hard, worked hard, knuckled down to speak the langauge. I fear he's lost all of that up here. HE's graduallly turning into the mercenary, that I am sure he didn't wish want upon himself
GM that is part of the reason that I'm posting on this issue so much. I'd like to think that I'm putting forward the players case as it is easy for some to paint them in an negative light, which IMO is unfair. This is a very difficult and multi-layered problem but the players, for all their faults, are not mercenaries, big headed or anti-club, as some would paint them.
QuoteDefinitely Sean Og was a role model for all of us - but when he called for FM and Holland to resign, the esteem and respect in which he was held is now very much diminished - I'm not sure if I would go as far as to label him a mercenary, but his comments were at least ill judged.
He was wrong to call for FM's head but TH.....well you know my opinion on that one.
A mercenary was maybe a bit too far, but he certainly has regressed
He definitely has regressed - Na Piarsaigh wrote to the CB disasociating themselves from his comments - which is a sad and unfortunate situation in itself.
Geting back to the problem. The players will never win here. They need to get some sort of out plan, were everybody wins.
Not sure there'll be any winners here GM, but the players will see this out to the end. If TH doesn't go then you won't see either of the 2007 panels representing Cork in 2008 IMO.
The players have dug too big a hole for themselves and the problem now is that they think they will lose face by going back to play for Teddy. The hole is too big to dig themselves out of.
the players will see this out to the end
Is this sort of statement not a big part of the problem / solution ??
Zulu, no matter how the players say that they are Cork, they cant perform without the Cork board. This dipute is going nowhere. With niether coming out as winners. AND it cant be resolved with winners. Croke Park wont allow it. If the players come out on top, then thats the end of our assocciation as we know it. It will become a players organisation, rather than a community club.
It will become a players organisation, rather than a community club.
I can't see it going that far but the players stance in this situation in Cork gives cause for concern alright.
I like many other gaa followers throughout the country am very dismayed at the current Cork situation. its a no win situation if you ask me . i am not from cork but have always admired their style and their friendliness at many games which i have travelled down to. It really is amazing how it has got this far. Marches on the street, intervention of the Labour relations chief. Meetings with head of the gaa etc etc. Its heady stuff and not for all the right reasons. As a few have already pointed out there seems to be a lot of conspiracy theories as to what actually took place . In this I am referring to the removal of Billy Morgan and the fact that the selection of selectors by the county board was a backdoor means of getting rid of him . The players knew this and reacted accordingly. Where are the facts to back this up. Is this another case of "well a blind man on a galloping horse can see whats going on here" but we cant really prove it. i am a delegate to the county board for my own club and some of the comments made in this thread about delegates leave a lot to be desired. The county board are the clubs with the exception of one full time official . All the clubs and my own included select the county board. If they are not up to scratch we deselect them . We choose ,and thats the way it should be . Some and I say only some see delegates in a different light. If I did not have a gaa background I could be forgiven in thinking that all the county board are a bunch of highly paid bosses set out on a pedestal and the players are the workers hard done by and all that. In the cork case the clubs voted with the county board , twice if I am led to believe in favour of the system of choosing selectors. I may not like this but if the majority of clubs in my county agreed with it then as a democrat I will accept that decision . Next year I will put in a motion through my own club in order to reopen debate. It will go before the annual convention or the specific board convention and I will speak on it and from that I will sink or swim . Thats the way it is. Any other way and its a recipe for disaster. Whether the cork county board did the right thing or not is irrelevant . The clubs decided, I repeat the clubs decided. They spoke and the players who had valid points about the system should have gone to their clubs and rallied their clubs and made them the focus for the protest not to set themselves up as the focal point They should blame the clubs . Get on to their club delegate and ask them as to why they voted the way they did and if they didn't like it well they have every right to withdraw themselves from the squad until such times as circumstances change. The players were quite entitled to withdraw their services to the county if they felt strongly about it, that is there right as individuals , but to go on strike as some kind of unionised group and set themselves up as an us v them situation to me is entirely wrong. Cork players have no right to set themselves up as a body and as representatives for all players . The cork jersey is not owned by any group of individuals no matter how important they think they are . Next year new players come on board, the jersey moves on. If there is funny stuff going on in the county board and the conspiracy theories are right then let the clubs stand up and be counted and take a principled stand. Cork is a huge county with a more than proud tradition. At the end of the day what is happening in cork will have profound effects on the rest of the association. It is sad for me to have to write this as it gives me no pleasure at all i would rather be discussing the merits of the footballers and hurlers of cork as players rather than militant activists in a war where there is only one loser
Welcome to the board Rionach 4 - that's a very good first post. Sad that it's going on so long - I have always contended on here that the clubs voted on the issue TWICE. But some posters are saying that the vote was rigged and they voted the way FM TOLD them to vote !
Quote from: orangeman on February 10, 2008, 12:19:57 AM
Welcome to the board Rionach 4 - that's a very good first post. Sad that it's going on so long - I have always contended on here that the clubs voted on the issue TWICE. But some posters are saying that the vote was rigged and they voted the way FM TOLD them to vote !
Ardboeboy. its a fantastic first post. Onlt I cant be bothered to read the whole thing. But I'm sure I't dosent agree with us.
...'Go to sleep my weary provo...''
why can't Holland step down- surely that would be a start - he must know his position is untenable. An interim management for 1 year can be put in place with the agreement of all parties and the promise of the whole thing to be revisited in October/November 2008. That's the only solution from what i can see.
Here's a suggestion for you and you can tell me what you think - ok ?
Teddy to step aside AND last years panel also to step aside -
Put in new management AND new players -
Quote[Here's a suggestion for you and you can tell me what you think - ok ?
Teddy to step aside AND last years panel also to step aside -
Put in new management AND new players
No coach with a half a brain or any ambition would take the job without the option of picking the 2007 panel.
Congrats OM. You've just invented the first ever 'lose - lose' solution to a problem :)
It's a way of showing Sean Og and co. that you can't simply ask for removal of Teddy and not be able to offer something back !
Asking the whole panel of players to stand down is ridiculous I know but some would say that asking Teddy and FM to step aside is equally ridicuous.
Orangeman - i read this thread with great interest. some of the protagonists involved are amongst my favourite sportsmen and cork is a sporting county you have to admire. tis a genuine pity to see the state of goings on. that said, i don't feel i know enough about the parties involved nor the issues to post. also, with so much misinformation about i can't form a definite opionon. therefore i ask you, are you comfortable making sweeping generalisations about subjects on which you know little or nothing? or making assumptions on the charachter of men you've never met? or swallowing anything your fed like a CNN junkie?
There are some obviously well informed people on this thread and the debate has been enlighteing when you are so far from the happenings. on numerous occasions posters have hinted to you that there is a reason they know things that you don't, but you plod on down your gormless path. do me a favour and just read this thread instead of polluting it, there's a good lad.
while i'm at it. quit posting little faces after posts. it just makes you seem even more dense
Thanks Uladh - now have you anything more or less "gormless" to post ? ;)
It's getting to the stage where the County Board need to take the imitative and stop back peddling. They should write to all of last years quads and ask for confirmation that they are available for selection. Give them 7 days to reply - the leagues gone now so forget it. They then arrange trails in hurling & football for all those from last year who want to play the games plus any others who the clubs reckon are good enough.
It there is any kind of protest at the trails those protesting should be charged with bringing the Association into disrepute and on conviction should be banned for 2 years.
The county board in Cork need to grow a pair of balls and move on.
Quote from: deiseach on February 09, 2008, 11:13:28 PM
Everyone seems to think they are winning the battle of hearts and minds, sans any evidence, naturally
"It says in the papers" yesterday was quoting a poll in De Paypur that found a majority of the Cork public support the players. This is the only attempt I've heard of to gauge the level of support but ultimately it's meaningless, unless it was a poll of GAA members, or at least supporters. I didn't buy the Examiner, so I don't know how the poll was conducted and, most importantly, the form of the questions. But I'd have been amazed at any other outcome in a poll of the general public, as opposed to the GAA public. We all know the misinformed, knee-jerk attitude of the man in the street to "the gah", "The Grab-All Association" and so on.
The players insist that they are right - so do the CB - the clubs have vote with the CB now twice - but the players still say they're right and will see it through to the end ( whatever that means ) - all strikes end with not everyone getting what they want and it's about time the players realized that.
QuoteThe players insist that they are right - so do the CB - the clubs have vote with the CB now twice - but the players still say they're right and will see it through to the end ( whatever that means ) - all strikes end with not everyone getting what they want and it's about time the players realized that.
OM even the staunchest CB supporter at this stage would accept that the democratic validity of the votes is debateable.
QuoteIt's getting to the stage where the County Board need to take the imitative and stop back peddling. They should write to all of last years quads and ask for confirmation that they are available for selection. Give them 7 days to reply - the leagues gone now so forget it. They then arrange trails in hurling & football for all those from last year who want to play the games plus any others who the clubs reckon are good enough.
It there is any kind of protest at the trails those protesting should be charged with bringing the Association into disrepute and on conviction should be banned for 2 years.
The county board in Cork need to grow a pair of balls and move on.
Again this has been pointed out repeatedly but if Teddy Holland called trials for the Cork team he wouldn't get any trialists. I can't make this clear enough but few, if any, IC standard players would make themselves available.
Cork All Star is running at Leopardstown this afternoon. It's the only Cork All Star we'll be seeing this year.
So is there any way this awful situation can be sorted before next weekend?
Even the Cold War came to an end eventually. It will be sorted out sometime but God knows when.
Quote from: Lecale2 on February 10, 2008, 11:59:37 AM
Cork All Star is running at Leopardstown this afternoon. It's the only Cork All Star we'll be seeing this year.
Very good Lecale. Up to your usual standard. LOL
QuoteSo is there any way this awful situation can be sorted before next weekend?
No, not before the weekend I'd say.
Quote from: THE MIGHTY QUINN on February 10, 2008, 01:16:56 PM
Quote from: Lecale2 on February 10, 2008, 11:59:37 AM
Cork All Star is running at Leopardstown this afternoon. It's the only Cork All Star we'll be seeing this year.
Very good Lecale. Up to your usual standard. LOL
Beaten into second by Bertie's favourite, the Plasterer.
QuoteOM even the staunchest CB supporter at this stage would accept that the democratic validity of the votes is debateable.
Zulu you have made some good points in this debate and fought the good fight from the players view point. But please do not give us this nonsense about the validity being debatable. If the vote had been the other way would you be saying it was debatable. A democratic decision was taken (ill advised maybe) but we should live with it and it can always be hanged in 8 months time. The players made the point that the change in the way selectors are appointed would lessen their chances of success - surely their actions so far have damaged their chances far more for 2008.
TJ the first vote definately was not representitive of the clubs because it wasn't debated on. The second vote is debateable because there are a number of clubs saying it wasn't debated within their clubs and we can't know that delegates voted as they were mandated by the clubs that did debate it. Without rehashing arguments, it is reasonable to question the validity of a vote that doesn't sem to reflect the view on the ground, i.e. that the manager should select his own backroom team.
Quoteit is reasonable to question the validity of a vote
Maybe reasonable to question the wisdom of the vote not the validity. A vote is valid if it is carried out according to agreed procedures. If we were to follow your logic then the results of a General Election would be invalid as soon as the next opinion poll would come out.!!! And if delegates did not refer to their clubs then that is a problem for the clubs. However my view is that had the players not threatened strike the decision would have been overturned at the second meeting.
QuoteMaybe reasonable to question the wisdom of the vote not the validity. A vote is valid if it is carroed out according to agreed procedures. If we were to follow your logic then the results of a General Election would be invalid as soon as the next opinion poll would come out.!!!
Not sure I follow your logic there TJ.
QuoteAnd if delegates did not refer to their clubs then that is a problem for the clubs. However my view is that had the players not threatened strike the decision would have been overturned at the second meeting.
But I'd by and large agree with that.
It's over. Cork has lost.
Now the clever GAA folk in Cork have to sort out the peace from the wreckage. Starting a row is easy. Ending it isn't so easy.
Interesting piece in Sunday World today by Pat Spillance who reckons the only way out is for Teddy to step aside.
Is there a deadline for Cork to announce if they will play the Dubs this week?
All this talk of "can they resolve it by the weekend", surely it would have to be by tomorrow or wednesday at latest so arrangements for the game can be made?
The senior hurlers and footballers of Cork have unanimously rejected the recent document drawn up by Labour Relations Commission chief executive Kieran Mulvey and the GAA Director-General Paraic Duffy to settle their strike.
Following a two-hour meeting tonight the players said they felt so strongly about the issues at stake that they are prepared to walk away from their inter-county playing careers.
The players appealed again to Cork football manager Teddy Holland and his selectors to stand down.
Earlier this afternoon, around 1,000 people attended a march in support of the players through the streets of Cork.
The march was attended by Cork senior footballer Noel O'Leary and by senior hurler John Gardiner.
We're going well now ! Positions are now even more entrenched. There now seems to be less hope now of a resolution.
they are prepared to walk away from their inter-county playing careers. This is a big statement.
I heard about this march, and Newstalk made a big deal about it.
Was it publicised beforehand? If it was, and 1,000 people turned up, I would hardly call that a ringing endorsement? You'd have more than that at a good wedding :D
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 11, 2008, 10:40:37 AM
I heard about this march, and Newstalk made a big deal about it.
Was it publicised beforehand? If it was, and 1,000 people turned up, I would hardly call that a ringing endorsement? You'd have more than that at a good wedding :D
I'd be interested to see how many would turn up at a march against the players stance.
I'd say there would be a few.
But to be honest, if "people power" is to be taken into consideration, the only way to do this is by having a vote involving all Cork GAA members.
The again you would have to wonder why club members vote for representatives at the county board if they have to check back for every decision with all the members.
QuoteThe again you would have to wonder why club members vote for representatives at the county board if they have to check back for every decision with all the members.
From what I've heard, and read here, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of it, the problem with the vote is that Clubs instructed delgates to vote a specific way, and they
deliberately voted contrary to their mandate.
That's not democracy, and that's why my opinion has shifted on this matter. I still think the players are making a bags of handling the whole thing, but the county board is, at best, deciding that the views of a small number of people are of much greater importance than the views of the clubs at large.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 11, 2008, 10:58:21 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 11, 2008, 10:40:37 AM
I heard about this march, and Newstalk made a big deal about it.
Was it publicised beforehand? If it was, and 1,000 people turned up, I would hardly call that a ringing endorsement? You'd have more than that at a good wedding :D
But to be honest, if "people power" is to be taken into consideration, the only way to do this is by having a vote involving all Cork GAA members.
The again you would have to wonder why club members vote for representatives at the county board if they have to check back for every decision with all the members.
The executive committee of the clubs would generally decide what way they are voting on a given issue and instruct the delegate(s) to vote a certain way.
It's very easy to call in favours though and get delegates to vote one way or another. I doubt very much if a Cork delegate or club got a call from Frank Murphy telling them to vote in favour of the new system, that too many of them would vote against.
QuoteFrom what I've heard, and read here, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of it, the problem with the vote is that Clubs instructed delgates to vote a specific way, and they deliberately voted contrary to their mandate.
I'm not sure that is the case for too many of the delegates AZ, IMO the result of the vote was a mixture of delegates voting the way the CB wanted them to vote regardless of their clubs wishes, clubs mandating their delegate to support the motion out of frustration with the effect the IC scene was having on the club championships, and club exectutives deciding what way their delegate should vote rather than the club membership. Only the second reason is acceptable IMO and even then it is very misguided.
Well, I've heard that it happened in a few cases, and if that is even true itself, it is completely wrong.
If it's because of reason 2 you mention, then I'd have no problem with it, democratically, other than disagreeing with it.
If it's reason 3, well, executives of clubs are elected to do stuff like this, so I wouldn't have a big problem with it either. The clubs can always vote in a different executive at the next AGM if they disagree with it.
QuoteIf it's reason 3, well, executives of clubs are elected to do stuff like this, so I wouldn't have a big problem with it either. The clubs can always vote in a different executive at the next AGM if they disagree with it.
That's true AZ, but if only a handful of people decided the way the club was going to vote then it weakens the argument that the club membership endorsed the motion.
Think TH should do the decent thing now and resign. It's clear now that he's gonna have no input into the Cork football team this year so he might as well let someone else have a go at it, sure FM might even be able to sneak him in next year...
Quote from: Zulu on February 11, 2008, 12:08:56 PM
QuoteIf it's reason 3, well, executives of clubs are elected to do stuff like this, so I wouldn't have a big problem with it either. The clubs can always vote in a different executive at the next AGM if they disagree with it.
That's true AZ, but if only a handful of people decided the way the club was going to vote then it weakens the argument that the club membership endorsed the motion.
But that's part of the democratic process. The handful (i.e. the executive) are mandated to provide club 'feedback' to the CB delegates. If the executive are providing bad feedback, then they will be thrown out at the next AGM. You can't have a full referendum on every matter. They probably should have convened an EGM on this particular matter, but there was no obligation on them to do so, I'd imagine.
QuoteBut that's part of the democratic process. The handful (i.e. the executive) are mandated to provide club 'feedback' to the CB delegates. If the executive are providing bad feedback, then they will be thrown out at the next AGM. You can't have a full referendum on every matter. They probably should have convened an EGM on this particular matter, but there was no obligation on them to do so, I'd imagine.
Again I'd accept that and to be honest I think no-one saw things developing as they have so clubs probably didn't even feel the need to seek every members opinion. But the point I'm trying to make is that pro-CB posters have made the point that the clubs voted on this democratically and thus the players are usurping that process whereas I have argued that that isn't the case because of the way the vote was handled. I think we are only going back over old ground here AZ, the issue is nolonger who caused it but how it can be resolved. I'd wager that TH will be gone before Friday, from there I think a temporary resolution can be found for 2008.
I agree. I'm persuaded that the Democratic process wasn't in fact followed here, which is why I've changed my original opinion from treating the players as usurpers of democracy.
However, I'm just saying that the only one of those options which would contravene the democratic rules would be the one where delegates clearly ignored club instructions.
I think we are in violent agreement here :D
I still think the players have fought a very poor PR battle. They should be emphasising, and getting validation of, the dodgy vote dealings. If it was a country, the UN would be in monitoring the votes :D
The bottom line is that Cork players need to find a way to get back out there and start playing again - it will be a huge disappointment if they don't - I know principle is a good thing, but to say that you'd abandon you're IC career is stretching it - even if they play club games, isn't it the SAME county board that is running the show ?
I'd say there will be some crack at next year's AGM ! ;D
I think after watching the whole episode I have finally began to change my stance on this. Its difficult to formulate county board policy and be a footsoldier as well. I believe those responsible on both sides have entrenched their position and have brought Cork county board, Cork county teams and the wider GAA into disrepute, both camps are being run by bollixes and there should be enforced blood letting on both sides and a sanction from Croke Park. I dont think the ringleaders on both side are ethically fit to either wear their county colours or administer their county ever again. I also believe that in the event of a settlement that any other county disadvantaged by their postponements should be given the points, nobody should ever be allowed to hold other counties, our national games and competitions to ransom for their own ends rightly or wrongly ever again.
Shame on Cork. They only ever had one rebel and again rightly or wrongly they feckin shot him too, the hoors !!
Very good post FOF ! ;)
Feet of flames, I think people like Sean Moylan, Tom Barry, Terence Mc Swiney, Liam Lynch etc would all disagree with your quote of they only ever had one rebel, take the road from Cork city to Killarney and just count the sheer number of memorials to volunteers from the War of Indepenence!
As for people being unfit to wear the Cork jersey, I think you would be hard pushed to find any group of players who feel as passionately about Cork hurling as the Cork team do. Let's now forget that the basis of this team lifted Cork from the doldrums no Munster title from 1992-1999 to a situation where they have won five Munster titles and 3 All-Irelands in the period since.
There is only one solution to this as I have said in earlier posts and that is for Teddy Holland to stand down, the man lost all credibility with the players due to the underhand manner in which he took the job. In his heart of hearts he knows that he would never have got offered the job if the 1st,2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th choices had wanted it or more corerectly decided to stand aside given the players wish that no-one go into role until the selector issue was resolved.
I saw Des Culliane and Bob Ryan on RTE again last night trying the same ould spin as they have over the past 3-4 wks and to make it worse they repeated the lie about the players being willing to play under Teddy Holland. To put the man in place is bad enough but to actually try to mis-represent what was said in confidential discussions just highlights how underhand the CCB has been in their whole dealings with this.
As I said in an earlier post last week from what I've been told the players won't be budging unless Teddy Holland does the decent thing and steps down, if the guy is really a Cork GAA man he will step aside.
It must be very easy to put the blame of this at the feet of one volunteer. Is this the way that guys are going to absolve themselves from blame. There are those in the GPA/ Cork that used this issue to cut their teeth. Ons strike and you are out shoul;d apply here. As for Holland he should go, he is no longer anything but a pawn between the Count Board and the players. if he walks away from the GAA, which I would certainly do where I subjetc to the players vendetta waged he can claim to be the oppnly one of virtue here. If he sits for 1 more week and Cork are kicked out of the league then he has little moral high ground. Frank murphy and D Og - if its found to be yet another Donal Og stirrup should be politley thanked and asked to move on from Cork GAA. Both have been great servants but their powers are on the wane and they are entrenched figures. Both are inflexible and as the last 2 months have shown inflexibility will destroy Cork GAA if its not soon replaced by decent, accomodating and human figures. Forget about the players doing all they can to get success. last night on TV they were prepared to close Cork GAA down for the year. True Gaels mehole, the hoors.
True Gaels mehole, the hoors ;) ;D
Feet of Flames, explain the Donal Og stir up comment. Is this another GPA gripe, it should be remembered that there are a lot more players in the GPA than Donal Og yet as he is the spokesperson he takes the flak for all the members who vote on their actions. I know some people on the board think I'm pro GPA and constantly standing up for the likes of Donal Og but as I know the guys personally I feel obilgied to answer some of the blatant untrues and mis-representation being posted here.
You clearly have no idea of what the guy does in his own club (coaching juveniles, on the club committee etc) or indeed outside of his club to promote hurling and I have little doubt that his record as a GAA man stands up very favourably with your own.
Just to give you an example, two years ago donal Og organised for the Down minors to travel to Cloyne and have a coaching weekend there hosted by himself, Sean Og, Diarmuid O'Sullivan and John Allen. All the organisation including the challenge match was organised by Donal Og and everyone of the lads involved refused to take anything for their efforts. Not only that but for the past three years Donal Og and Diarmuid O'Sullivan have travelled to Newry to help promote the primary school coaching underway and once again refused to take a penny even though both lads had to take Friday off work to visit the schools.
Get your facts right before accusing people of not being decent human beings and not true gaels, by the way the guy is also fluent in Irish so I think he scores heavily on the "true gael" mark on that one.
I take what you say, pull hard, but from this end of the country, he appears divisive and arrogant. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but that's how I see him. I know it's not just as cut and dried as that, and I'm sure he's ok, but his record is not good on this.
No offence but many see rightly or wrongly that Donal Og is one of a group of driven anti establishment groupies/ rump currently trying to turn the GAA into a pay for play oraginsation if hes not threatening a strike over grants he's in the middle of a strike over management. I really dont care what his merits are as they are far outweighed in my opinion. Hes the antithesis of what many people I know like about the GAA, others will support him - thats their call, I wouldnt hang him out as a martyr more perhaps a local agitator.
Quote from: feetofflames on February 11, 2008, 06:05:32 PM
No offence but many see rightly or wrongly that Donal Og is one of a group of driven anti establishment groupies/ rump currently trying to turn the GAA into a pay for play oraginsation if hes not threatening a strike over grants he's in the middle of a strike over management. I really dont care what his merits are as they are far outweighed in my opinion. Hes the antithesis of what many people I know like about the GAA, others will support him - thats their call, I wouldnt hang him out as a martyr more perhaps a local agitator.
So you take no notice of what the GPA/GAA say about not looking for pay for play, you take no notice of the fact that he puts in probably more effort into "club activities" than most people on here and claim that he is against what people in the GAA are about......
He stands up against total incompetence in the County Board who are renowned for screwing their players about and this is a crime???
Problem is how are we meant to know which of his mutually contradictory statements we're supposed to take notice of and which we're expected to ignore? Is it the oft-repeated "we don't want pay for play" preamble or the unguarded comments when he let slip his true position on amateurism and volunteerism in the GAA?
How many people actually believe the GPA leaders when they claim they're not about pay for play? 2? 3?
Even Nickey Brennan stated unequivocally that the GPA IS about pay for play in his 2006 Congress address:
"I want to make one matter quite clear today though, lest there be any misunderstanding or ambiguity on anyone's part. Since the GPA was launched the notion of pay-for-play has been on their agenda. Despite recent comments from some of their officials, I am of the view that this remains the ultimate aim of the GPA in some form or other."
Maybe I am niaive or something but I do not read any more into this without evidence. It is still relatively straightforward in my mind: CCB wanted to arrest more control over the senior teams, notably the football team under Billy Morgan.They put in a rule regarding selectors that they knew would make billy walk. They thought that they would get away with it considering the time they did it. The players objected and said that they would not play for a manager that took the job under the new rules. The problem for CCB is that they players stuck to their position and have not budged. The CCB and Teddy have not budged either.
My opinion is that the only way out is for one of the sides to show some magnaminity and step back from the brink. The players would still have strongly made their point if they stepped back now and Teddy Holland would still be a dead man walking in a managerial capacity. I think they should agree to go back playing and vow to resume the fight against the new system after the championship is over. Moral high ground maintained.
I want to make one matter quite clear today though, lest there be any misunderstanding or ambiguity on anyone's part. Since the GPA was launched the notion of pay-for-play has been on their agenda. Despite recent comments from some of their officials, I am of the view that this remains the ultimate aim of the GPA in some form or other."
N Brenna Congress 2006.
Its time to crush this rump.
Quote from: feetofflames on February 12, 2008, 08:26:32 AM
I want to make one matter quite clear today though, lest there be any misunderstanding or ambiguity on anyone's part. Since the GPA was launched the notion of pay-for-play has been on their agenda. Despite recent comments from some of their officials, I am of the view that this remains the ultimate aim of the GPA in some form or other."
N Brenna Congress 2006.
Its time to crush this rump.
::)
This thread has been one of the more enlightening and well debated ones on here for a while. Lets stick to the facts of the discussion and not let it morph into a GPA versus Grassroots series of polemics and tirades. We all know Donal Óg Cusack is a prominent member of the GPA. You can allow that to inform your opinion of his motives, but it is not germane to the facts of this matter, other than very peripherally.
I heard on the radio that Teddy Holland is considering stepping down. We've all more or less been saying that he surely must at some stage, so entrenched are the various parties. If ever a managerial position has been 'untenable' it is surely Teddy Holland as Cork Senior Football manager.
Correct and proper. My order of resignation is Teddy then Frank Murphy and Donal Og. All would undoubtedly think that they have something left to offer, yet they have crossed the line on this one and have brought Cork from Mallow to Mizen into disrepute, so out they go. and I would like to point out that my dislike of the goalie is by no means symbiotic of my dislike for the Cork Football team. I like the Cork football team, in fact I pity them, but this was an internal dispute that has had implications for the GAA at large. There should be no more talk about GAA funded Cork stadia for a while. Money coming through the gates like that would only turn the red eyed one green.
If as appears likely Teddy Holland resigns and the players panel secure their victory and with it a veto on who ever else is appointed some fundamental points arise-
Are the county panels in Cork now so powerful that they are self perpetuating with members leaving only when they want to go and will a manager be still able to impose disipline as in Co. Antrim this week?
Do the players on the panels now contro; who will qualify for the grants if/when they become available?
Is the original objective of giving a higher priority to the County Championship ( quoted as the reason the proposed rule change was supported by the clubs at convention now lost?
Once again is the real loser here the ordinary club & club player whose footballing/hurling year is fecked about with by the inter county schedule and the demands that IC players are not played?
Is it now getting to a situation where County Boards will be fighting to get a rep. on the management team so they can know what is going on and how the vast sums being spent are used? Or in this brave new world is this none of their business?
QuoteThis thread has been one of the more enlightening and well debated ones on here for a while
Well said AZ. I must say my sympathies are naturally with the players on this one but the points re the ordinary club players that zoyler made are spot on as well.
Apologies for getting sidetracked there, and I accept that the agitation may not have been entirely promoted by albeit openly supported by Dessie Farrell and the GPA. My final point on the matter is that those who hold our national competitions to ransom must be seen to be removed to protect against future conflicts both in Cork and everywhere else but to show that there must be a price to pay for those who are willing to lead revolts, bring in unfair rules etc. Without sanctions there will be chaos in other countied within 2 years. Without a shadow of a doubt the most injured part in all of this is Teddy Holland who loses out on a lifetime ambition to manage and serve Cork. Now would be honourable time for all men to leave in the interest of Cork and national gaa and must be is the greatest master.
Quote from: feetofflames on February 12, 2008, 10:33:18 AM
Without a shadow of a doubt the most injured part in all of this is Teddy Holland who loses out on a lifetime ambition to manage and serve Cork.
A position he would never have got only for his supreme opportunism. If he had done the honourable thing like all the other contenders, this mess would have been sorted weeks ago.
If a poster wants to make individual attacks on any of the protagonists, its best if you have your facts straight or you are essentially attacking yourself.
is the concept of the collective with one voice such a difficult one for people to understand? to attack the spokeman for differences you may harbour with the statement is ridiculous. What 2 year old out of context quotes from someone unconnected to the issue, speaking about an entirely unrelated topic have to do with this is beyond me.
i largely agree with az in that i believe the motives and intentions of the players were admirable in this debacle but their methods ere, at best, misguided.
it seems inevitable that teddy H will be gone shortly and they'll all get on with things for the time being. however, there was a devisive issue before TH was appointed and presumably his removal wont rememdy that?
Quote from: feetofflames on February 12, 2008, 10:33:18 AM
Apologies for getting sidetracked there, and I accept that the agitation may not have been entirely promoted by albeit openly supported by Dessie Farrell and the GPA.
I get the feeling that if dessie f supported a united irland you'd join the uvf.
Quote from: feetofflames on February 12, 2008, 10:33:18 AM
Without a shadow of a doubt the most injured part in all of this is Teddy Holland who loses out on a lifetime ambition to manage and serve Cork.
That sir, is nonsense.
This whole thing is wrecking my head.
My initial reaction is to back the players. When I hear people from outside the county saying the players should now back down and accept Teddy Holland as the manager it makes my blood boil. When he came in there was 2 major problems with the position he accepted. (sorry if I'm repeating what others have said, I need to get this off my chest)
1. He wasn't allowed to pick his own selectors. This means that he was willing to accept the people the county board put forward as co-selectors. If he was willing to accept these then what else was he willing to accept from the county board. Broken showers, boiled chicken replaced by sandwiches, a county secretary standing by his side on the sideline discussing tactics during the game (are you listening Gerald?). If he is willing to accept the job under lesser terms than all previous managers have accepted the job then are we getting the best manager we can? Are there more suitable manager out there who would not have accepted the job under these circumstances? [It would appear to me that a compromise has been reached on this issue and that the issue can be revisited later]
2. The players were in dispute over this issue when he accepted the job. If the manager and players are going to put everything they can into winning an all-Ireland then how can they start out by the manager siding against the players. This "team" can never achieve as much as it can when one side is openly against the other. To me this is the step where it became about personalities and the only resolution is for Teddy Holland to step down.
When I hear people going on about how the players should play for this man after this I can't understand it. Do they think we travel to Cork games to see them participate? Will we be happy with a token effort until we get a proper management team next year? We travel to Cork games to see them try their best to win. If that is not possible this year then I applaud the players for risking a year of their playing careers so that in future years we get a level playing field to other counties.
Then someone goes and mentions club players.......
club players need less interference from county panels and managers to game scheduling....
if you have a county board controlled selection team then you might get less requests for game postponements........
....
IF that is what the clubs wanted when they voted for this it seems a dumbass way of going about it.
The county board needs to be strong on this issue and face it down directly.
To me it seems a player can get injured as easily in training as he can in a match.
it seems inevitable that teddy H will be gone shortly and they'll all get on with things for the time being. however, there was a devisive issue before TH was appointed and presumably his removal wont rememdy that?
Without a shadow of a doubt the most injured part in all of this is Teddy Holland who loses out on a lifetime ambition to manage and serve Cork.
That sir, is nonsense.
Again looking in from up here in the North a region who many believe are the instigators of all the rows in the GAA. I believe Holland has sat fairly dignified through the politics of this entire process and has become the object of the argument as opposed to the reason for the argument. If the players stance is so principled then the resignation of Teddy Holland will mean sweet fa, Uladh. Unfortunately painting this quiet football manager as the root of all the problems will ultimately suit the ccb and the players in what is effectively a struggle yes, light on principle heavy on power. It gives all sides a facesaving get out close. Believe you me the players driven by GPA elelments want Murphy ousted by hook or by crook and thats I blame the ccb and I blame the players anmd the man I blame the least Uladh is Teddy Holland, but the players have chosen their fall guy as they now believe they cant touch their intitial fall guy Frank Murphy.
My fear is that in time other anti GPA powerhoouses within the GAA targeted, not a theory just a hunch.
I get the feeling that if dessie f supported a united irland you'd join the uvf. No I wouldnt, there must be more money in a united Ireland.
Quote from: feetofflames on February 12, 2008, 11:55:34 AM
it seems inevitable that teddy H will be gone shortly and they'll all get on with things for the time being. however, there was a devisive issue before TH was appointed and presumably his removal wont rememdy that?
Without a shadow of a doubt the most injured part in all of this is Teddy Holland who loses out on a lifetime ambition to manage and serve Cork.
That sir, is nonsense.
Again looking in from up here in the North a region who many believe are the instigators of all the rows in the GAA. I believe Holland has sat fairly dignified through the politics of this entire process and has become the object of the argument as opposed to the reason for the argument. If the players stance is so principled then the resignation of Teddy Holland will mean sweet fa, Uladh. Unfortunately painting this quiet football manager as the root of all the problems will ultimately suit the ccb and the players in what is effectively a struggle yes, light on principle heavy on power. I blame the ccb and I blame the players anmd the man I blame the least Uladh is Teddy Holland, but the players have chosen their fall guy as they now believe they cant touch their intitial fall guy Frank Murphy.
I get the feeling that if dessie f supported a united irland you'd join the uvf. No I wouldnt, there must be more money in a united Ireland.
The fact is...and this fact....just so you cant twist it.....before Holland was appointed...the footballers and hurlers produced a statement...it made it clear that no one should touch the football managers position until the stand off between the CB and the players was resolved. Mr Holland rode roughshot over these wishes. Any chance of him working with the footballers in a united changing room were finished there and then.
exactly, he was dead meat, I wonder who worded that statement on behalf of the Cork countyplayers. The day for playing for the jersey are well and truly over.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on February 12, 2008, 12:05:44 PM
Quote from: feetofflames on February 12, 2008, 11:55:34 AM
it seems inevitable that teddy H will be gone shortly and they'll all get on with things for the time being. however, there was a devisive issue before TH was appointed and presumably his removal wont rememdy that?
Without a shadow of a doubt the most injured part in all of this is Teddy Holland who loses out on a lifetime ambition to manage and serve Cork.
That sir, is nonsense.
Again looking in from up here in the North a region who many believe are the instigators of all the rows in the GAA. I believe Holland has sat fairly dignified through the politics of this entire process and has become the object of the argument as opposed to the reason for the argument. If the players stance is so principled then the resignation of Teddy Holland will mean sweet fa, Uladh. Unfortunately painting this quiet football manager as the root of all the problems will ultimately suit the ccb and the players in what is effectively a struggle yes, light on principle heavy on power. I blame the ccb and I blame the players anmd the man I blame the least Uladh is Teddy Holland, but the players have chosen their fall guy as they now believe they cant touch their intitial fall guy Frank Murphy.
I get the feeling that if dessie f supported a united irland you'd join the uvf. No I wouldnt, there must be more money in a united Ireland.
The fact is...and this fact....just so you cant twist it.....before Holland was appointed...the footballers and hurlers produced a statement...it made it clear that no one should touch the football managers position until the stand off between the CB and the players was resolved. Mr Holland rode roughshot over these wishes. Any chance of him working with the footballers in a united changing room were finished there and then.
Is the statement on the web anywhere?
Uladh, you are misrepresenting me.
I cited Nickey Brennan's comments in reply to DubsForSam's reference to "what the GPA/GAA say about not looking for pay for play". This is relevant because it shows that even officials who have tried to accommodate the GPA - when a gun was put to their heads - do not trust them. And if you think that Nickey is entirely "unconnected to the issue", you are naive. Who do you think authorised the intervention of Kieran Mulvey and Paraic Duffy in Cork? Who has to speak on behalf of the GAA and to ultimately carry the can for the association amid this strike and its consequences for the association?
While they may have some legitimate grievances, the Cork players - well, the hurlers at least - have not shown "admirable" motives and intentions. There has been no change to the hurling management system, yet at the drop of the hat they waded into someone else's battle. If this was a hurling issue they might have more support. They have got too greedy for power. Calls for officials to resign are not just misguided methods; they reveal far-from-admirable intentions of getting rid of anybody they don't like.
I don't really have a problem with the Cork footballers' position. They understandably feel disadvantaged by recent decisions. And none of them comes across as being firebrands. Unlike certain Cork hurlers.
And you are also wrong about Teddy Holland, Uladh. He may have made a mistake, he may be stubborn, but he has been stigmatised for the rest of his life because of his alleged mistake, which was really only a small incident in a war between certain Cork hurlers and the board. And he does not have the free cars/sponsorship potential of the Cork hurlers (who he was not going to manage). And despite all of this we have not heard him say one thing offensive to anybody.
TH is in an impossible position. If he stays on, Cork people and some reactionaries in the media will blame him for everything wrong in Cork. If he quits, it comes across as an admission that he did something seriously wrong. And if he has a wider view of the association he may also realise the consequences of his stepping down in terms of encouraging further overstated stunts of player power. I genuinely don't think he had any idea of how much weight would be put on his shoulders, whatever about his alleged mistake.
Quote from: quidnunc on February 12, 2008, 12:18:25 PM
Uladh, you are misrepresenting me.
While they may have some legitimate grievances, the Cork players - well, the hurlers at least - have not shown "admirable" motives and intentions. There has been no change to the hurling management system, yet at the drop of the hat they waded into someone else's battle. If this was a hurling issue they might have more support. They have got too greedy for power. Calls for officials to resign are not just misguided methods; they reveal far-from-admirable intentions of getting rid of anybody they don't like.
That changes where for Football and Hurling , so hurlers have the same issues as the footballs albeit without a management change this year
And you are also wrong about Teddy Holland, Uladh. He may have made a mistake, he may be stubborn, but he has been stigmatised for the rest of his life because of his alleged mistake, which was really only a small incident in a war between certain Cork hurlers and the board. And he does not have the free cars/sponsorship potential of the Cork hurlers (who he was not going to manage). And despite all of this we have not heard him say one thing offensive to anybody.
TH is in an impossible position. If he stays on, Cork people and some reactionaries in the media will blame him for everything wrong in Cork. If he quits, it comes across as an admission that he did something seriously wrong. And if he has a wider view of the association he may also realise the consequences of his stepping down in terms of encouraging further overstated stunts of player power. I genuinely don't think he had any idea of how much weight would be put on his shoulders, whatever about his alleged mistake.
An oustanding contribution to the debate. It also begs the question about the hurlers strike. They would have had one year to challenge the proposal through the correct and clearly defined structures of the clubs and the GAA, and if they believed in these structures and their cause they would have won their fight, but they chose to form a union with the footballers and strike. Did it do anything than make a bad situation worse and unsave able. The straw that broke the camels back was this management issue; it is very much a power struggle, it is every bit an attempted coup; it is a forewarning to Cork county board to stay out of County team and GPA affairs; Its a test case for the GPA this one whether they simply lent their support to it or indeed instigated it is a question for those at the core to answer. Whatever teddy Holland do or didnt do he has a very small part to play in this, except that he may well be left with the face saving blame in a heavily media portrayed and very public spat where he is unbelievably the only party yet to open his mouth.
When are Cork due to play the Dubs? According to www.gaa.ie it is next Saturday but I think that the radio said the weekend after next. If it is next weekend the deadline for their participation is fast approaching.
QuoteHowever, the thing is that bob honohan has a lot of previous with billy morgan. Back in 1991, one year after Morgan had led cork to its first ever four in row in munster and two in a row AI and the second leg of the double, Cork were sensationally dumped out of the first round of munster by a p**s-poor kerry team. At the following autumn convention, honohan led a charge that morgan was not fit for office, so to speak, and produced a charge sheet that included drinking with the players and other misdemeanours, and in his efforts to unseat morgan he received the support of a number of exc utive delegates, including the late con murphy.
the exc utive produced an alternative team management for the 1992 season, which included among others Teddy Holland and Liam Hodnett. Following a public outcry and intervention by ray cummins among others IIRC, the board backed down big style and so did Teddy, Liam and the others. Remember that. Teddy backed down when told to do so by the board.
QuoteAnd you are also wrong about Teddy Holland, Uladh. He may have made a mistake, he may be stubborn, but he has been stigmatised for the rest of his life because of his alleged mistake, which was really only a small incident in a war between certain Cork hurlers and the board. And he does not have the free cars/sponsorship potential of the Cork hurlers (who he was not going to manage). And despite all of this we have not heard him say one thing offensive to anybody.
That is missing the point completely, the players rightly or wrongly stated that they wouldn't play under the new system, they then asked that no-one take up a position on the football backroom team until their grievances were addressed. So to ignore that wish and take on the job under the CB proposal was to give the players the two fingers. How did TH expect to develop a working relationship with those same players after that? Regardless of the justification for the players statement prior to TH appointment the players are 100% right not to play for a man who so blatantly ignored their (reasonable) request for time to solve the outstanding issues.
QuoteTH is in an impossible position. If he stays on, Cork people and some reactionaries in the media will blame him for everything wrong in Cork. If he quits, it comes across as an admission that he did something seriously wrong.
He did do something seriously wrong.
QuoteAnd if he has a wider view of the association he may also realise the consequences of his stepping down in terms of encouraging further overstated stunts of player power. I genuinely don't think he had any idea of how much weight would be put on his shoulders, whatever about his alleged mistake.
Nonsense, another 'thin edge of the wedge' argument, players will always play if they are being correctly supported by the people who's job it is to support them. If a similar situation occurred in another county then those players would be entitled to withdraw their services also
Quote from: agorm on February 12, 2008, 01:35:14 PM
When are Cork due to play the Dubs? According to www.gaa.ie it is next Saturday but I think that the radio said the weekend after next. If it is next weekend the deadline for their participation is fast approaching.
Its this saturday 16th
QuoteHe did do something seriously wrong.
No, he did not do something "seriously wrong". He did not commit a crime, threaten anyone, physically or verbally abuse anyone or do anything deliberately against the GAA in Cork or anywhere else. At worst he made a
mistake which has been seriously conflated out of proportion by certain malevolent interests. When he took the job, even if it was mistake, it would not have been unreasonable for him to think that the board and the footballers would sort out their differences anyway. His biggest mistake was to not realise quite how unreasonable some of the protagonists, chiefly certain Cork hurlers, are, and to not realise that these hurlers would continue to push their twisted agenda at all costs.
QuoteNonsense, another 'thin edge of the wedge' argument, players will always play if they are being correctly supported by the people who's job it is to support them. If a similar situation occurred in another county then those players would be entitled to withdraw their services also
Yes of course they're entitled to "withdraw their services", but that's not what they're doing. They're on "strike" and holding out a veiled threat to anyone who would try to play in their places. Even though quite a number of them had no right to assume they would be picked for the panel this year anyway.
Ultimately, if certain hurlers had stayed out of this, this whole mess would almost certainly have been solved long ago, because the more reasonable footballers would have been willing to reach a compromise with the county board.
End Game
If Cork unfortunately are removed from the national league, a new County executive should be appointed at an EGM. In the short term this executive should appoiont a new management team on last years rules and a panel of 60 players should be drawn up to try out for for the right to represent Cork football by the new management in the championship. That panel should be selected on the basis of trial games etc. so that the biggest county in Ireland are represented in the AI 2008. Anyone who withdraws from the panel or does not trial out does not make the cut. Any existing problems ie ccb or players or indeed manager should not be allowed to influence. They have made whatever their point was.
So let me get this right - according to quidinc if the hurlers had been good little boys and let the footballers get shafted everything would have been alright in the world...
Would love to have know how come it is only in Cork that these issues happen???
according to quidinc if the hurlers had been good little boys and let the footballers get shafted everything would have been alright in the world...
You just make it sound like a power trip too
QuoteNo, he did not do something "seriously wrong". He did not commit a crime, threaten anyone, physically or verbally abuse anyone or do anything deliberately against the GAA in Cork or anywhere else. At worst he made a mistake which has been seriously conflated out of proportion by certain malevolent interests. When he took the job, even if it was mistake, it would not have been unreasonable for him to think that the board and the footballers would sort out their differences anyway. His biggest mistake was to not realise quite how unreasonable some of the protagonists, chiefly certain Cork hurlers, are, and to not realise that these hurlers would continue to push their twisted agenda at all costs.
After all the debate that has gone on, people are still coming out with this rubbish. TH kicked the players while they were down, now maybe I'm being a bit melodramatic when I say that but to call what he did a mistake is naive in the extreme and an insult to TH intelligence. No-one with any experience of running a team could have made that 'mistake' and TH has plenty experience of the player V CB issues down in Cork, so he would have been more than aware of how the players were likely to react to his decision.
QuoteYes of course they're entitled to "withdraw their services", but that's not what they're doing. They're on "strike" and holding out a veiled threat to anyone who would try to play in their places. Even though quite a number of them had no right to assume they would be picked for the panel this year anyway.
Ultimately, if certain hurlers had stayed out of this, this whole mess would almost certainly have been solved long ago, because the more reasonable footballers would have been willing to reach a compromise with the county board.
It is the footballers who are insisting on TH standing down, of that I can assure you. The hurlers are supporting the footballers because it is an issue which affects them also and the players are well aware that it has to be a case of untied they stand divided they fall in any conflict with the CB. Oh and by the way can you furnish us with some proof of your allegation that the players are issuing 'veiled threats' to prospective panellists.
QuoteEnd Game
If Cork unfortunately are removed from the national league, a new County executive should be appointed at an EGM. In the short term this executive should appoiont a new management team on last years rules and a panel of 60 players should be drawn up to try out for for the right to represent Cork football by the new management in the championship. That panel should be selected on the basis of trial games etc. so that the biggest county in Ireland are represented in the AI 2008. Anyone who withdraws from the panel or does not trial out does not make the cut. Any existing problems ie ccb or players or indeed manager should not be allowed to influence. They have made whatever their point was.
More pie in the sky rubbish, I have spoken to numerous club players in Cork and while some tell me that they heard a few lads say they would play if asked, all the likely replacements are adamant that they won't. I personally know lads that would certainly be in the shake up of an alternative panel and they won't play.
I would love to be a fly on the wall at tonight's meeting ! Any white smoke yet ?
Quote from: orangeman on February 12, 2008, 08:59:59 PM
I would love to be a fly on the wall at tonight's meeting ! Any white smoke yet ?
i wouldnt expect it to be a religeous experience orangeman ;)
The legendary Frank Murphy has done it again!
I just got a txt from Cork explaining what they're up to at the meeting. Frank is seeking a ruling that the original appointment of TH was procedurally flawed and is therefore null & void.
Brilliant! The man is a genius.
I have a grudging admiration for those who have managed to turn this whole thing into a players v Teddy Holland debate, whilst the players have still lost the argument they went on strike for in the first place
Cork County Board will ask Mulvey to appoint independent arbitrator whose recommendation will be binding on both parties. Mulvey to contact players tonight and seek agreement. Arbitrators to start work tomorrow if players agree.
If they don't agree - another Board meeting on Thursday to withdraw Cork from league and championships.
Frank is seeking a ruling that the original appointment of TH was procedurally flawed and is therefore null & void.
I can't see this being true but IF it is, what a legend ! ;D
will it come to withdrawl, or will there be a last minute agreement....
the clock is ticking
Quote from: orangeman on February 12, 2008, 10:35:03 PM
Frank is seeking a ruling that the original appointment of TH was procedurally flawed and is therefore null & void.
I can't see this being true but IF it is, what a legend ! ;D
How and why would this make him a legend?
Sean Moran was on with Des Cahill and he reckons that the league is out but that a team will be fielded in the championship -
How and why would this make him a legend?
As I said, I can't see this being true, but if he manages to pull this rabbit out of the hat and save face on this basis, and thereby resolving the dispute, he'd have to get the freedom of the city for this piece of fancy footwork, would he not ??
Just can't see how the county board will save face. Nobody comes out of this well.
I agree that nobody will come out with their reputations in tact but at least we could see some on field action instead of a pile of rubbish in the press.
In a dispute like this binding arbitration is the last resort. It doesn't reslove the issues just papers over them and usually leaves one side bitter over the outcome.
Cork board agree to arbitration
Tuesday, 12 February 2008 23:18
The on-going players' strike in Cork may be a step closer to resolution after a meeting of the Cork County Board.
County Board officials have voted 96 to 13 in favour of entering a binding arbitration with the county's senior hurlers and footballers.
According to the terms of the proposals both sides would work out a deal through an independent third party, expected to be CEO of the Labour Relations Commission, Kieran Mulvery.
The arbitrator's decision would be final and could not be disputed or appealed.
My opinion is that it is easier for the CCB to enter this binding arbitration than the players. The players have categorically stated that they will not play for TH wheareas the CCB are buffered to an extent in the fact that they can lose TH and still be buffered themselves. I think that the playesr have more to lose at binding arbitration myself, though for that reason it is doubtful the the arbitrator would force the players to play for TH.
Quote from: Lecale2 on February 13, 2008, 07:53:15 AM
In a dispute like this binding arbitration is the last resort. It doesn't reslove the issues just papers over them and usually leaves one side bitter over the outcome.
Cork board agree to arbitration
Tuesday, 12 February 2008 23:18
The on-going players' strike in Cork may be a step closer to resolution after a meeting of the Cork County Board.
County Board officials have voted 96 to 13 in favour of entering a binding arbitration with the county's senior hurlers and footballers.
According to the terms of the proposals both sides would work out a deal through an independent third party, expected to be CEO of the Labour Relations Commission, Kieran Mulvery.
The arbitrator's decision would be final and could not be disputed or appealed.
96 to 13 according to RTE , the times reckon unanimously ::)
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2008/0212/cork.html
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0213/breaking12.htm
Quote from: stephenite on February 12, 2008, 09:48:41 PM
I have a grudging admiration for those who have managed to turn this whole thing into a players v Teddy Holland debate, whilst the players have still lost the argument they went on strike for in the first place
That would. pf course, suit the County Board as well. They can get Teddy to resign, while bemoaning his fate, while he is a sacrificial lamb for them to throw at the players.
Everyone thinks they've won, except the County Board gets their system in place, which is what they wanted all along.
Is there not a way out for any player who is not happy with the arbitration result. He can always walk away from the county scene and play for his club. That would not be a big deal as loads of players leave the inter county game every year either off their own bat or because they are dropped from a county panel. Surely several of the Cork footballers and a few of the hurlers were going to be dropped from the panels anyway. It is hardly a job for life even for the hurlers.
The County Board have quite cleverly passed the ball back to the players. They are now between a rock and a hard place. If they refuse to accept binding arbitration they will appear unreasonable, Ciork will not play in the NFL or NHL this year and the players will be blambed. If they accept it thjey will end up accepted far less than they started the whole row over in the first place.
Remember this row didn't start over Teddy Holland.
How soon do they need to confirm the Dublin game will / wont go ahead??
Wednesday now, surely it has to be yes or no today??
Quote from: Aristotle Flynn on February 13, 2008, 11:43:41 AM
The County Board have quite cleverly passed the ball back to the players. They are now between a rock and a hard place. If they refuse to accept binding arbitration they will appear unreasonable, Ciork will not play in the NFL or NHL this year and the players will be blambed. If they accept it thjey will end up accepted far less than they started the whole row over in the first place.
Remember this row didn't start over Teddy Holland.
But won't play under him , i think that would be a precondition for them entering talks
If there is a precondition such as 'Teddy Out' there can hardly be equitable arbitration so it would be back to square one
Antrim CANNOT play in 2008 Munster SHC
13 February 2008
The Munster Council chairman has revealed that it's impossible for Antrim to replace Cork in this year's Munster senior hurling championship.
There were rumblings that the Glensmen could be invited into the competition if the Rebels are unable to settle their internal differences, but Jimmy O'Gorman says it would not be possible for Antrim to feature in the 2008 Munster SHC:
"They would have to make an official application to the Munster Council first and then we'd look at it. There has been no application made up to now.
"It can't happen now for 2008 no matter what, because that application would have to be made and looked at and then sanctioned."
The representatives of the players - now known as the 12 apostles - are meeting tonight. A meeting of all the palyers can't be arranged due to work commitments. They will be considering the County Board's offer of binding arbitration.
In my view they'd be mad not to go with it. If they don't they will be effectively ending their inter county careers and whole country will blame them for wrecking the leagues and championships.
The likes of Sean Og will go from hero to zero in weeks. No PR company in Ireland will touch him with a barge pole. Without county hurling he'll just be another nice young fella who works in a bank.
When is the meeting?
I wish they wouldn't use nick names like the 12 Apostles.
The only reason the players would agree to this is pressure. It makes no sense according to their stance all along. But the county board have forced them into a whole, with the help of a few others. Really sad situation.
Quote from: Bacon on February 13, 2008, 04:45:47 PM
The representatives of the players - now known as the 12 apostles
::)
Did you get that from the star or the mirror?
Apostles my arse, I'd have a stronger nickname for them ;)
Óg-Seán's Twelve
The meeting of the 12 apostles broke up tonight with the players saying they wanted to seek clarification on the offer of binding arbitration.
Quote from: Lecale2 on February 13, 2008, 11:50:02 PM
The meeting of the 12 apostles broke up tonight with the players saying they wanted to seek clarification on the offer of binding arbitration.
If they're the apostles (seriously, who the f**k came up with that?) then who is their Messiah? Is it Donal Og or is he merely another apostle, Dessie Farrell maybe?
I wonder who'll be Judas, my guess is Anthony Lynch
They are all Judas's if you ask me!
Are the Cork games on this weekend or not? I thought they had until yesterday to sort it out or Croke Park would throw them out of the leagues. More empty threats from Mr Brennan?
I presume this 'binding arbitration' possibility has given them a lifeline. If the footballers are due to play this weekend though, they'll be out of the League at least. I'd say they'll be given as much rope as they possibly can, bearing in mind fixture congestion, the other teams and supporters.
It really benefits no-one for a county to pull out of the League, no matter what county.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the cork players. Derry witnessed a county board totally shaft Eamon Coleman RIP in '94', the players initially said they would not play under Moran, who said he would stand down if the players wanted, he went back on his word, anyway....the players did not stick together and that was their death nail as a footballing force. Brolly alluded to this in a recent article he wrote on the Cork matter. Regardless who is right or wrong...the cork players have to stick together in whatever they agree or it will rip the teams heart in half...and that will finish them on the field for a long time
Yes they should stick together alright but they should stick together ON the pitch !
What clarification can be needed on binding arbitration unless they want to change the arbitrator or try to have TH shafted before the arbitration starts in which case its not arbitration!
I presume they want clarification in that if they say 'Under no circumstances will we play under Holland' will that be accepted as non-negotiable?
Sick of this, its thursday now, is the game on or off???
Its too late for me to travel to Cork at this stage. Cant be driving up and back that day with a pregnant wife, too late to book a hotel.
Wont somebody please think of his holiness' children !!! ??? :o
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 14, 2008, 10:12:13 AM
Sick of this, its thursday now, is the game on or off???
Its too late for me to travel to Cork at this stage. Cant be driving up and back that day with a pregnant wife, too late to book a hotel.
Wont somebody please think of his holiness' children !!! ??? :o
Leave her at home. The travel wouldn't be great for her anyway. Especially because Dubs get tetchy if they go further than the commuter belt.
No can do AZ, we are gonna have a battle on our hands bringing this child up as a Dub in the Royal country, I reckon we need to start operation brainwash now ;)
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on February 14, 2008, 09:04:29 AM
I have a great deal of sympathy for the cork players. Derry witnessed a county board totally shaft Eamon Coleman RIP in '94', the players initially said they would not play under Moran, who said he would stand down if the players wanted, he went back on his word, anyway....the players did not stick together and that was their death nail as a footballing force. Brolly alluded to this in a recent article he wrote on the Cork matter. Regardless who is right or wrong...the cork players have to stick together in whatever they agree or it will rip the teams heart in half...and that will finish them on the field for a long time
not going over old ground but the likes of mcgilligan,scullion and the bellaghy players involved at that time all played away and even brolly i think as the wish of eamon coleman himself and that was the reason the players came back because eamon wanted them too.(just shows you the man eamon was,totally derry and committed gael)
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 14, 2008, 10:37:04 AM
No can do AZ, we are gonna have a battle on our hands bringing this child up as a Dub in the Royal country, I reckon we need to start operation brainwash now ;)
You have future Meath Hurler on your hands HHN
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 14, 2008, 10:42:59 AM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on February 14, 2008, 09:04:29 AM
I have a great deal of sympathy for the cork players. Derry witnessed a county board totally shaft Eamon Coleman RIP in '94', the players initially said they would not play under Moran, who said he would stand down if the players wanted, he went back on his word, anyway....the players did not stick together and that was their death nail as a footballing force. Brolly alluded to this in a recent article he wrote on the Cork matter. Regardless who is right or wrong...the cork players have to stick together in whatever they agree or it will rip the teams heart in half...and that will finish them on the field for a long time
not going over old ground but the likes of mcgilligan,scullion and the bellaghy players involved at that time all played away and even brolly i think as the wish of eamon coleman himself and that was the reason the players came back because eamon wanted them too.(just shows you the man eamon was,totally derry and committed gael)
Drum did the bellaghy players play before xmas....I thought they were club tied due to our ulster club success that year.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on February 14, 2008, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 14, 2008, 10:42:59 AM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on February 14, 2008, 09:04:29 AM
I have a great deal of sympathy for the cork players. Derry witnessed a county board totally shaft Eamon Coleman RIP in '94', the players initially said they would not play under Moran, who said he would stand down if the players wanted, he went back on his word, anyway....the players did not stick together and that was their death nail as a footballing force. Brolly alluded to this in a recent article he wrote on the Cork matter. Regardless who is right or wrong...the cork players have to stick together in whatever they agree or it will rip the teams heart in half...and that will finish them on the field for a long time
not going over old ground but the likes of mcgilligan,scullion and the bellaghy players involved at that time all played away and even brolly i think as the wish of eamon coleman himself and that was the reason the players came back because eamon wanted them too.(just shows you the man eamon was,totally derry and committed gael)
Drum did the bellaghy players play before xmas....I thought they were club tied due to our ulster club success that year.
not 100% sure max,would imagine not,was just a sad state of affairs which as you say resulted in no further success for that particular squad,but i just remeber somthing at that time bellaghy players would be playing no matter what,as i say cant be sureif this was the case.
This a joke this match is on Saturday , how the f**k are we suppose to plan for this at this stage?
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 14, 2008, 10:37:04 AM
No can do AZ, we are gonna have a battle on our hands bringing this child up as a Dub in the Royal country, I reckon we need to start operation brainwash now ;)
You better get started so, because once he hits 12 he will be forcibly taken from the family home and sent to the Royal Football Youth Academy where he will learn to survive on his wits, move stealthily and kill without mercy. As well as catching, kicking etc.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on February 14, 2008, 09:04:29 AM
I have a great deal of sympathy for the cork players. Derry witnessed a county board totally shaft Eamon Coleman RIP in '94', the players initially said they would not play under Moran, who said he would stand down if the players wanted, he went back on his word, anyway....the players did not stick together and that was their death nail as a footballing force. Brolly alluded to this in a recent article he wrote on the Cork matter. Regardless who is right or wrong...the cork players have to stick together in whatever they agree or it will rip the teams heart in half...and that will finish them on the field for a long time
One of the best contributions in 57 odd pages of this thread.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on Today at 09:04:29 AM
I have a great deal of sympathy for the cork players. Derry witnessed a county board totally shaft Eamon Coleman RIP in '94', the players initially said they would not play under Moran, who said he would stand down if the players wanted, he went back on his word, anyway....the players did not stick together and that was their death nail as a footballing force. Brolly alluded to this in a recent article he wrote on the Cork matter. Regardless who is right or wrong...the cork players have to stick together in whatever they agree or it will rip the teams heart in half...and that will finish them on the field for a long time
even if they are wrong or their action is not in the interests of Cork GAA?
Also I believe that that Derry team beat a done Cork team in the AIfinal. Ultimately that Derry team fell out as much amongst themselves on their holiday etc ;) and this factor; the Coleman saga and the rise of Peter the great and the double winning Tyrone team of 95/96 finished them. But lets face it they had 1 forward Brolly; 1 freetaker Gormley and a superb defence and midfield - Possibly the best 1 in a row team ever. :D
Quote from: feetofflames on February 14, 2008, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on Today at 09:04:29 AM
I have a great deal of sympathy for the cork players. Derry witnessed a county board totally shaft Eamon Coleman RIP in '94', the players initially said they would not play under Moran, who said he would stand down if the players wanted, he went back on his word, anyway....the players did not stick together and that was their death nail as a footballing force. Brolly alluded to this in a recent article he wrote on the Cork matter. Regardless who is right or wrong...the cork players have to stick together in whatever they agree or it will rip the teams heart in half...and that will finish them on the field for a long time
even if they are wrong or their action is not in the interests of Cork GAA?
Also I believe that that Derry team beat a done Cork team in the AIfinal. Ultimately that Derry team fell out as much amongst themselves on their holiday etc ;) and this factor; the Coleman saga and the rise of Peter the great and the double winning Tyrone team of 95/96 finished them. But lets face it they had 1 forward Brolly; 1 freetaker Gormley and a superb defence and midfield - Possibly the best 1 in a row team ever. :D
Fleetoflames....due to the new rules on the board, I won't call you a w**ker. But this i will say...thank God your not on our county board....we have enough opinionated types who think they know it all in it already
Don't worry about it HH- my young fella still wears the dub jersey at training etc - gets great stick over it but it only makes him stronger!!!
Quote from: Gnevin on February 14, 2008, 11:20:08 AM
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 14, 2008, 10:37:04 AM
No can do AZ, we are gonna have a battle on our hands bringing this child up as a Dub in the Royal country, I reckon we need to start operation brainwash now ;)
You have future Meath Hurler on your hands HHN
Thats a terrible thing to say Gnevin,
Mods!!!!
personal abuse to my unborn child!!!!
;D
As someone asked earlier, has the Cork Dublin game been called off? I understood that the deadline was yesterday.
Maximus
Why is it that the opinionated ones are always the adminstrators not the players? As for using this arguement to attack your own county board. Disgraceful!
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 14, 2008, 08:59:10 AM
I presume this 'binding arbitration' possibility has given them a lifeline. If the footballers are due to play this weekend though, they'll be out of the League at least. I'd say they'll be given as much rope as they possibly can, bearing in mind fixture congestion, the other teams and supporters.
It really benefits no-one for a county to pull out of the League, no matter what county.
I don't think missing the Dublin game puts the footballers out of the league, as the Meath game was deferred rather than postponed? The hurlers though cannot afford to miss another game.
Ah. I thought if they failed to fulfil 2 fixtures they were out, but if a deferrment is not technically failing to fulfil, then you're probably right.
Quote from: Hound on February 14, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 14, 2008, 08:59:10 AM
I presume this 'binding arbitration' possibility has given them a lifeline. If the footballers are due to play this weekend though, they'll be out of the League at least. I'd say they'll be given as much rope as they possibly can, bearing in mind fixture congestion, the other teams and supporters.
It really benefits no-one for a county to pull out of the League, no matter what county.
I don't think missing the Dublin game puts the footballers out of the league, as the Meath game was deferred rather than postponed? The hurlers though cannot afford to miss another game.
Yeah also heard this weekend was d day
D day for staying in the leagues was supposed to be yesterday.
When will the players decide on arbitration?
How long will arbitration take?
Will they ask for more delays because the squads and Teddy/Gerald haven't been training together?
It could be weeks yet before they are ready to take the field.
My understanding was the Meath game, whether deferred or postponed, was the first game they didnt fulfill.
The Dublin game is their last chance.
This really is dragging on and I can't see how they can feild a team this weekend. Is either panel training even? Hardly.
If the GAA had any backbone they'd be kicking ass left, right and centre. I'd suspend the whole lot, county board and all for 1 year. Its a sorry mess that even the FAI would struggle to get themselves into.
If the Cork clubs had any backbone they'd demand a full investiagtion into this mess from an intependent third party (Ring Genesis, they are used to preparing reports that no one acts on) that will pinpoint who is too blame.
It really is Craggy Island level.
You are dead right bingobus. Any other county would have thrown out of the NFL and NHL long before now. There are different rules for Cork than for the rest of us.
Quote from: Onlooker on February 14, 2008, 03:42:17 PM
You are dead right bingobus. Any other county would have thrown out of the NFL and NHL long before now. There are different rules for Cork than for the rest of us.
Agree fully, its thursday night, Dublin still dont know if they are to prepare, and make travel arrangements, for a game in two days time!!!
I'm suprised Dublin havent kicked up a fuss over this, Coyle was dead right in his comments before the last game. And was rewarded by the GAA suiting Cork, and putting Meath at an inconvenience (more games in less time) over the whole situation.
The only people to suffer so far in this whole debate so far is the opposition teams!!! >:(
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 14, 2008, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: Onlooker on February 14, 2008, 03:42:17 PM
You are dead right bingobus. Any other county would have thrown out of the NFL and NHL long before now. There are different rules for Cork than for the rest of us.
Agree fully, its thursday night, Dublin still dont know if they are to prepare, and make travel arrangements, for a game in two days time!!!
I'm suprised Dublin havent kicked up a fuss over this, Coyle was dead right in his comments before the last game. And was rewarded by the GAA suiting Cork, and putting Meath at an inconvenience (more games in less time) over the whole situation.
The only people to suffer so far in this whole debate so far is the opposition teams!!! >:(
Don't Dublin normally fly to Cork too ?
Wonder if the tickets are booked , if so who will pick up the bill for this?
Quote from: Jinxy on February 14, 2008, 12:51:02 PM
You better get started so, because once he hits 12 he will be forcibly taken from the family home and sent to the Royal Football Youth Academy where he will learn to survive on his wits, move stealthily and kill without mercy. As well as catching, kicking etc.
Does that say "wits" or "fists"? Me eyesight isn't what is used to be . . .
For the latest twist in this ongoing saga....................
http://www.daft.ie/searchsharing.daft?s%5Bcc_id%5D=ct3&s%5Ba_id%5D=339&s%5Bmnp%5D=&s%5Bmxp%5D=&s%5Broom_type%5D=either&refine=Refine&search=1&s%5Bsearch_type%5D=sharing&s%5Brefreshmap%5D=1&search_type=sharing
Breaking News on 2FM - Cork Players Strike is OFF !!!!
Any details - nothing on the RTE website yet? Did Teddy have to walk the plank
Great news - Cork players have agreed to arbitration - STRIKE IS OVER !
I have been told that the players accept the County Board offer. I am surprised but my info hasn't been wrong yet.
Probably the only way out now but who will end up having to swallow the bitter pill??
Had heard that the following was being floated as a discussion document by Pauraic Duffy .....
Breaking News - GAA to Intervene in Cork Players dispute By Jimmy Deliar
The 'Paddy Daily Star' has learned that the top brass of the GAA has now decided to intervene in the dispute between the Cork Players and the Cork County Board. It is believed that both sides involved in the dispute are firm in there stance and the situation is now at an impasse.
The GAA HQ has now approached both sides in an effort to resolve the situation. It is believed that the GAA have proposed some allowances to the Cork teams in the forthcoming championships if they can resolve the dispute within the next 48 hours.
We have learned from our sources that some of the proposals include:
If Cork hurlers play Kilkenny, only 12 hurleys will be available to the Kilkenny players and that there will be no replacement hurls should any break.
If Cork footballers play Kerry, Cork will automatically start the game with a 9 point lead. Kerry are not allowed to play the Gooch.
Also, if any Kerry player scores 5 points during the game they must immediately be taken off and no substitute player is allowed to come on.
If any Cork team are trailing in any game with 10 mins to go, the score will be reset to level.
If Cork still trail with 3 mins to go, they will receive a 6 point lead.
Should Cork fail to win either the Sam Maguire or Liam McCarthy Cup, or both, then the respective Championships will be declared null and void.
A final will then take place where Cork will play Kerry or Kilkenny.
They will play Kilkenny in the football and Kerry in the hurling.
The Gooch is still not allowed to play.
It is believed that the Cork County Board and players will make separate statements within the next 24 hours.
Support gathering for Cork Players Strike
The continuing row between the Cork Footballers, Hurlers and the Cork County Board has taken a new twist today with support now coming from outside the county. Leitrim footballers have released a statement endorsing the Cork footballers actions and fully supporting them.
"We, the Leitrim county football panel, would like to extend our full support to the Cork footballers in their current stance with the Cork County Board. We believe that the stance that they have taken is both necessary and correct. We understand the predicament that the Cork footballers find themselves in.
For many years we have been a laughing stock up and down the country, though we have never humiliated and shamed ourselves in front of the whole country as the Cork footballers did on September 16th 2007. We empathise with their pain. For nearly over a century now, Leitrim footballers have constantly questioned themselves as to why they have not managed to make any break through of recognition in the game. We have spent many years blaming ourselves, that we lack the talent of other counties or that maybe we are just not good enough. However the Cork footballers have shown that we should ignore our incompetencies and that the blame lies solely with the County Board.
For now we will continue to co-operate with the Leitrim County Board, but will continue to monitor developments in Cork."
Officials for neither the Leitrim County Board or the GAA were available for comment.
Hoepfully this thread will disappear graciously now ! :D
Very good Frank ! Was that in the oven for long ? ;D
Where did that come from frank?
Quote from: Gnevin on February 14, 2008, 10:43:36 PM
[Where did that come from frank?
Probably the same place the whole dispute came from - (a) bad mind(s).
Has anyone considered Teddy Holland in this. The arbitration is between the county board and the panel. Is it binding on any third party, namely Teddy, if it recommended that he stand down for example. Also there was some mention during the week of a procedural concern over the method of Teddy's appointment. With all the store placed inthe rule book by Frank Murphy could it prove his undoing for one?? Watch this space.
In addition, neither the Gooch, Colm Cooper, or Colm 'the Gooch' Cooper will be allowed play.
Quote from: Frank Casey on February 14, 2008, 10:49:30 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on February 14, 2008, 10:43:36 PM
[Where did that come from frank?
Probably the same place the whole dispute came from - (a) bad mind(s).
Has anyone considered Teddy Holland in this. The arbitration is between the county board and the panel. Is it binding on any third party, namely Teddy, if it recommended that he stand down for example. Also there was some mention during the week of a procedural concern over the method of Teddy's appointment. With all the store placed inthe rule book by Frank Murphy could it prove his undoing for one?? Watch this space.
I was wondering about this, as the County Board appointed him I'm pretty sure they can get rid of him also. It still stinks in my mind that he will in all probability get shafted, the players probably won't have agreed to arbitration if the position of TH was non negotiable.
Only chance is that the arbitrator recommends that TH stay on for the year and the players are forced to accept it?
Actually, now that I think about it this could well be the solution, it gives the players an 'out' in that they have now stated they will accept whatever decision is handed down, everyone saves face somewhat
Quote from: orangeman on February 14, 2008, 10:43:09 PM
Very good Frank ! Was that in the oven for long ? ;D
Since November. Although parts of it date from September ;D
Quote from: stephenite on February 14, 2008, 10:55:46 PM
Quote from: Frank Casey on February 14, 2008, 10:49:30 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on February 14, 2008, 10:43:36 PM
[Where did that come from frank?
Probably the same place the whole dispute came from - (a) bad mind(s).
Has anyone considered Teddy Holland in this. The arbitration is between the county board and the panel. Is it binding on any third party, namely Teddy, if it recommended that he stand down for example. Also there was some mention during the week of a procedural concern over the method of Teddy's appointment. With all the store placed inthe rule book by Frank Murphy could it prove his undoing for one?? Watch this space.
I was wondering about this, as the County Board appointed him I'm pretty sure they can get rid of him also. It still stinks in my mind that he will in all probability get shafted, the players probably won't have agreed to arbitration if the position of TH was non negotiable.
Only chance is that the arbitrator recommends that TH stay on for the year and the players are forced to accept it?
Actually, now that I think about it this could well be the solution, it gives the players an 'out' in that they have now stated they will accept whatever decision is handed down, everyone saves face somewhat
It's "binding" not binding i.e. if one party or the other doesn't like the result they can still ignore it
Quote from: stephenite on February 14, 2008, 10:55:46 PM
I was wondering about this, as the County Board appointed him I'm pretty sure they can get rid of him also. It still stinks in my mind that he will in all probability get shafted, the players probably won't have agreed to arbitration if the position of TH was non negotiable.
Only chance is that the arbitrator recommends that TH stay on for the year and the players are forced to accept it?
Actually, now that I think about it this could well be the solution, it gives the players an 'out' in that they have now stated they will accept whatever decision is handed down, everyone saves face somewhat
Ray Silke in last Saturday's Examiner quoted an IR expert as saying in any dispute resolution you have to leave the other side with the bus fare home. Both sides will probably claim some measure of comfort/victory/principle.
They can of course, but I'd be surprised if either side was to ignore whatever decision is handed down. I'd say the results are known to all sides already to be honest, it's all organised and they're just going through the process now so everyone is happy.
Or I'm way off the mark
Quote from: Gnevin on February 14, 2008, 10:57:46 PM
[It's "binding" not binding i.e. if one party or the other doesn't like the result they can still ignore it
My impression Gnevin is that both sides will accept whatever decision come what may......and both can blame somebody else.
Quote from: Frank Casey on February 14, 2008, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on February 14, 2008, 10:57:46 PM
[It's "binding" not binding i.e. if one party or the other doesn't like the result they can still ignore it
My impression Gnevin is that both sides will accept whatever decision come what may......and both can blame somebody else.
That's it, no party to this will dispute the findings of the arbitration - immediate loss of public sympathy and blame apportioned to which ever side chooses to do ignore it
Quote from: stephenite on February 14, 2008, 11:04:25 PM
Quote from: Frank Casey on February 14, 2008, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on February 14, 2008, 10:57:46 PM
[It's "binding" not binding i.e. if one party or the other doesn't like the result they can still ignore it
My impression Gnevin is that both sides will accept whatever decision come what may......and both can blame somebody else.
That's it, no party to this will dispute the findings of the arbitration - immediate loss of public sympathy and blame apportioned to which ever side chooses to do ignore it
Agreed this is (probably) the end of the strike but as for the warring couple ever kissing and making up?
It will be the arbitrators fault from now on !
Quote from: orangeman on February 14, 2008, 11:12:45 PM
It will be the arbitrators fault from now on !
Nothing like a common foe to unite you. I'm beginning to see a sneaker langer plot in all of this. Did we ever really think that they's let a special K treble go unopposed. You heard it here first - back Cork for the double ;)
Absolutely - Kerry don't have a chance this summer - Cork players will be coming out all guns blazing from now on - remember the hurlers delivered Liam after the last strike !
Quote from: orangeman on February 14, 2008, 11:17:32 PM
Absolutely - Kerry don't have a chance this summer - Cork players will be coming out all guns blazing from now on - remember the hurlers delivered Liam after the last strike !
Thats two showers to watch now. We cant beat the northern teams. We wont beat the langers. Feck it tis the tiddlywinks for summer 08.
The person I've heard this from is not the most reliable source admittedly - apparently TH will be allowed to manage for the rest of this season only. All issues to be revisited at a county convention as soon as both teams are out of the Championship (probably around early July :P)
Supposed to be a statement out this morning, according to Newstalk, but I'd be absolutely amazed if Teddy Holland is Cork Senior Football manager this season.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 10:23:32 AM
Supposed to be a statement out this morning, according to Newstalk, but I'd be absolutely amazed if Teddy Holland is Cork Senior Football manager this season.
On the one hand I'd agree AZ, but if it's a binding arbitration the players can say that they had no choice but to accept the decision and they are prepared to be the ones to move on for the good of the game etc. Puts them in a stronger position to get exactly what they want come the convention and they will have the gratitude of the clubs onside a bit more by that time. Footballers have probably written off the season for now anyway
I see what you mean. My take on the 'win-win' situation would be that the players go back under the same system, but a different manager, and an agreement to revisit the system in September.
1. The Cork County Board win because they get to pick the selectors, as they wanted when the rule was changed.
2. The Players win(kind of) because they won't play under the man they said they wouldn't play under.
Any white smoke yet? Mulvey is supposed to hand down his 'binding' decision before lunchtime. Dublin will have some craic trying to get to Cork before tomorrow. What odds another 'deferment'?
I was just listening to the Radio. Kieran Mulvey is expected to announce his findings and recommendations before lunchtime.
The GAA has confirmed that the Allianz National League games involving Cork's senior hurlers (v Waterford) and footballers (v Dublin) this weekend will not take place.
Any further decision in regard to these fixtures will be taken by the CCCC next Tuesday.
NEXT TUESDAY!!!!!!!
Feck sake, thats strike two, they should be thrown out!
Quote from: Lecale2 on February 15, 2008, 11:14:23 AM
Kieran Mulvey is expected to announce his findings and recommendations
It take a Ros man to sort things out ;)
Now if only our lads would strike against mismanagement and get KM in......
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 15, 2008, 11:20:22 AM
The GAA has confirmed that the Allianz National League games involving Cork's senior hurlers (v Waterford) and footballers (v Dublin) this weekend will not take place.
Any further decision in regard to these fixtures will be taken by the CCCC next Tuesday.
NEXT TUESDAY!!!!!!!
Feck sake, thats strike two, they should be thrown out!
Thats it they are out!
2 games missed or will the GAA bend the rules to suit them self again?
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 15, 2008, 11:20:22 AM
The GAA has confirmed that the Allianz National League games involving Cork's senior hurlers (v Waterford) and footballers (v Dublin) this weekend will not take place.
Any further decision in regard to these fixtures will be taken by the CCCC next Tuesday.
NEXT TUESDAY!!!!!!!
Feck sake, thats strike two, they should be thrown out!
I can only assume that they will not be thrown out because there is an impending resolution, and it is not unending. I think that's better for everyone anyway.
Having said that, if Offaly, or Roscommon, or Carlow were at the same craic, would they be kicked out of the leagues? Quicker than you can say O
2 I'd say.
On another note, is the 'CCCC' the most annoying/confusing acronym for a body ever? When you're saying it, you have to remember to stop at 4 C's or else you sound like steam escaping from a kettle. When writing it/reading it, you go cross eyed with all the 'C's.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 11:27:43 AM
On another note, is the 'CCCC' the most annoying/confusing acronym for a body ever? When you're saying it, you have to remember to stop at 4 C's or else you sound like steam escaping from a kettle. When writing it/reading it, you go cross eyed with all the 'C's.
What does CCCC stand for again? Central Competitions Control Committee?
I think that's it alright GNevin.
I assume the CCB will cover the DCB loses for flights etc?
That would only be fair. The Cork County Board should have to make up the shortfall in any expenses or penalties incurred by Dublin. Who's going to do the same for Dublin fans? Ye poor divils ye.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 15, 2008, 11:20:22 AM
The GAA has confirmed that the Allianz National League games involving Cork's senior hurlers (v Waterford) and footballers (v Dublin) this weekend will not take place.
Any further decision in regard to these fixtures will be taken by the CCCC next Tuesday.
NEXT TUESDAY!!!!!!!
Feck sake, thats strike two, they should be thrown out!
convine a sort of pools panel from the great and the good to arbitrate on the results
Cork v Waterford Home win*
Cork v Dublin Home*
*these are fictitious results and are not based on anything real
Cork should be banned from all competitions for 2008. They have brought the game into disrepute. I dont care anymore who is right or wrong, they are holding the rest of the country up from getting on with the leagues.
No they are not. They are holding up Dublin, Meath, Kilkenny and Waterford so far. The rest of the country is playing away.
Any word from Mulvey?
Not according to Newstalks 12.00 sports bulletin. Still 'waiting'.
AZOffaly,
They may not be now but they will be in the future with unplayed games. When (or if) will these games be played? They may result in reshuffle of semi's with teams also not knowing when or if they have qualified or are relegated. This could affect club games in the affected counties.
But sure its the poor cork players, lets hope that when they do play they get the Guard of honour onto the field from the opposing teams who will then bend over and go easy on the Langers who haven't had the right preparation yet.
Quote from: thebandit on February 15, 2008, 11:51:51 AM
Cork should be banned from all competitions for 2008. They have brought the game into disrepute. I dont care anymore who is right or wrong, they are holding the rest of the country up from getting on with the leagues.
100% agree, non participation in the league should mean explusion from the championship. Non paricipation in the leagues SHOULD be confirmed already as they were told if they couldnt play the Dublin game (second fixture) on the fixed date they were out. Now it seems to be unclear ::)
Feck them out of both for 2008, that will give them plenty of time to sort this mess out.
The Weekends of 23/24 Feb , 8/9 March and Easter weekend 21-24 March are available.
There are no Semi Finals in the NFL this year.
Quote from: bingobus on February 15, 2008, 12:11:58 PM
AZOffaly,
They may not be now but they will be in the future with unplayed games. When (or if) will these games be played? They may result in reshuffle of semi's with teams also not knowing when or if they have qualified or are relegated. This could affect club games in the affected counties.
But sure its the poor cork players, lets hope that when they do play they get the Guard of honour onto the field from the opposing teams who will then bend over and go easy on the Langers who haven't had the right preparation yet.
I'm not necessarily anti the sentiment, I just don't like hyperbole. There are pitches in Cork that could play midweek matches under lights, there are 'hurling' weekends which could see football played, and vice versa. I know it's inconvenient, but I cannot see semi finals or finals being postponed because of this. If they are, it's stupid.
If it was any of the smaller counties involved, we would be kicked out, but lets not go mad. It's better for everyone if Cork are not kicked out, but as I say, most other counties would have been.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 15, 2008, 12:14:08 PM
The Weekends of 23/24 Feb , 8/9 March and Easter weekend 21-24 March are available.
There are no Semi Finals in the NFL this year.
Will some one please think of the clubs!!
How many County players would be playing with clubs those weekends ??
Quote from: Rossfan on February 15, 2008, 12:19:02 PM
How many County players would be playing with clubs those weekends ??
If we led to believe on the year of the club, that they should all be allowed play. I know our county players will be playing in club games on the breaks in the National league. They don't play around championship times.
But sure once the 30 players are alright, let the rest go to pot i.e Supporters, Officals, groundsmen, stewards, etc etc and anyone else who may have to choose between attending a club game or county game which was rearranged to suit a load of ego's (Players and CB) down in Cork.
Quote from: bingobus on February 15, 2008, 12:25:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 15, 2008, 12:19:02 PM
How many County players would be playing with clubs those weekends ??
If we led to believe on the year of the club, that they should all be allowed play. I know our county players will be playing in club games on the breaks in the National league. They don't play around championship times.
But sure once the 30 players are alright, let the rest go to pot i.e Supporters, Officals, groundsmen, stewards, etc etc and anyone else who may have to choose between attending a club game or county game which was rearranged to suit a load of ego's (Players and CB) down in Cork.
Without a doubt. It's a disgrace and brings no credit on anyone down there. As I said, most other counties would have got the road by now. However, which is better, that the GAA try and squeeze in these 4 games in midweek or off weekends, or we kick Cork (or any other county) out.
I think it's better to have the games played, or at most possibly forfeit the points, but don't kick them out.
Kick them out. Therefore a precedent is set.
If any county, either players or CB, throw the toys out of the pram and don't fulfill a fixture then they have a way out now using the Cork case as an example. This could affect clubs games and while I'm no legal expert, I'm sure that the treatment of Cork would be sound enough for any legal case if it was taken against any punishment incurred for missing a fixture.
At a minimum the points should be forfeited.
QuoteIf any county, either players or CB, throw the toys out of the pram and don't fulfill a fixture then they have a way out now using the Cork case as an example. This could affect clubs games and while I'm no legal expert, I'm sure that the treatment of Cork would be sound enough for any legal case if it was taken against any punishment incurred for missing a fixture.
I'm sure you are right. It's undoubtedly very dangerous ground not to punish them according to the rules. If the rules say they should be kicked out, I suppose they have to go. I just think it'd be a pity for the competition(s).
I think the points should be forfeit.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:37:18 PM
QuoteIf any county, either players or CB, throw the toys out of the pram and don't fulfill a fixture then they have a way out now using the Cork case as an example. This could affect clubs games and while I'm no legal expert, I'm sure that the treatment of Cork would be sound enough for any legal case if it was taken against any punishment incurred for missing a fixture.
I'm sure you are right. It's undoubtedly very dangerous ground not to punish them according to the rules. I think the points should be forfeit.
Forfeiting points isn't fair on the other counties who will have to still play Cork. Feck em out they knew as well as the rest of us what the deadline was . Jesus no wonder the discipline to so bad in the GAA, they wont even follow their own rules .
Ah FFS - 20 to midnight now, will ya hurry up Mulvey!!
Quote from: Gnevin on February 15, 2008, 12:40:09 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:37:18 PM
QuoteIf any county, either players or CB, throw the toys out of the pram and don't fulfill a fixture then they have a way out now using the Cork case as an example. This could affect clubs games and while I'm no legal expert, I'm sure that the treatment of Cork would be sound enough for any legal case if it was taken against any punishment incurred for missing a fixture.
I'm sure you are right. It's undoubtedly very dangerous ground not to punish them according to the rules. I think the points should be forfeit.
Forfeiting points isn't fair on the other counties who will have to still play Cork. Feck em out they knew as well as the rest of us what the deadline was . Jesus no wonder the discipline to so bad in the GAA, they wont even follow their own rules .
You see the thing is they haven't actually refused to play because of the strike. They requested, and were granted, a postponement. This means that they haven't actually 'failed to fulfil the fixture' as the fixtures never really stood. That'll be their 'out'. The GAA looking for loopholes in the GAA's rules :D
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:44:47 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on February 15, 2008, 12:40:09 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:37:18 PM
QuoteIf any county, either players or CB, throw the toys out of the pram and don't fulfill a fixture then they have a way out now using the Cork case as an example. This could affect clubs games and while I'm no legal expert, I'm sure that the treatment of Cork would be sound enough for any legal case if it was taken against any punishment incurred for missing a fixture.
I'm sure you are right. It's undoubtedly very dangerous ground not to punish them according to the rules. I think the points should be forfeit.
Forfeiting points isn't fair on the other counties who will have to still play Cork. Feck em out they knew as well as the rest of us what the deadline was . Jesus no wonder the discipline to so bad in the GAA, they wont even follow their own rules .
You see the thing is they haven't actually refused to play because of the strike. They requested, and were granted, a postponement. This means that they haven't actually 'failed to fulfil the fixture' as the fixtures never really stood. That'll be their 'out'. The GAA looking for loopholes in the GAA's rules :D
Grand , so i assume this will apply across the board and for what ever situation a CB like. A day before the Leinster final Dublin can ring HQ and say the weather man said it will rain tomorrow we are not playing . ::)
Here's a question for the club officials and rules experts amongst us. If you request, in advance, a postponement of a match, does it count as a fixture not being fulfilled? Or is it simply a postponement? I'm not talking about not turning up, or not requesting a postponement until the morning of the game.
Quote from: Gnevin on February 15, 2008, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:44:47 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on February 15, 2008, 12:40:09 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:37:18 PM
QuoteIf any county, either players or CB, throw the toys out of the pram and don't fulfill a fixture then they have a way out now using the Cork case as an example. This could affect clubs games and while I'm no legal expert, I'm sure that the treatment of Cork would be sound enough for any legal case if it was taken against any punishment incurred for missing a fixture.
I'm sure you are right. It's undoubtedly very dangerous ground not to punish them according to the rules. I think the points should be forfeit.
Forfeiting points isn't fair on the other counties who will have to still play Cork. Feck em out they knew as well as the rest of us what the deadline was . Jesus no wonder the discipline to so bad in the GAA, they wont even follow their own rules .
You see the thing is they haven't actually refused to play because of the strike. They requested, and were granted, a postponement. This means that they haven't actually 'failed to fulfil the fixture' as the fixtures never really stood. That'll be their 'out'. The GAA looking for loopholes in the GAA's rules :D
Grand , so i assume this will apply across the board and for what ever situation a CB like. A day before the Leinster final Dublin can ring HQ and say the weather man said it will rain tomorrow we are not playing . ::)
Only if the CCCC agrees to the request. I'm only asking the question, because I suspect Cork will not be thrown out, and I think they've been doing it via postponements rather than 'not fulfilling fixtures' all along to protect themselves against that. They never intended throwing Cork out. I think I made a post to this effect about 2 weeks ago.
Nothing from Mulvey yet.
When is he expected to make an announcement ? Will it be today ?
It was expected by lunch time but I suppose he has to let both parties know what he has decided before he goes public.
Nothing on the 1 O'Clock news
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:51:26 PM
Here's a question for the club officials and rules experts amongst us. If you request, in advance, a postponement of a match, does it count as a fixture not being fulfilled? Or is it simply a postponement? I'm not talking about not turning up, or not requesting a postponement until the morning of the game.
Depends on the county concerned, I suppose. My experience has been (as a club secretary) that unless it's for a very good reason (a death, etc.) it's a forfeit of the match. The likes of the current fiasco in Cork wouldn't be tolerated at club level. But then I suppose elites have their own rules.
Quote from: LaurelEye on February 15, 2008, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:51:26 PM
Here's a question for the club officials and rules experts amongst us. If you request, in advance, a postponement of a match, does it count as a fixture not being fulfilled? Or is it simply a postponement? I'm not talking about not turning up, or not requesting a postponement until the morning of the game.
Depends on the county concerned, I suppose. My experience has been (as a club secretary) that unless it's for a very good reason (a death, etc.) it's a forfeit of the match. The likes of the current fiasco in Cork wouldn't be tolerated at club level. But then I suppose elites have their own rules.
But it was very clear that the Meath game was not forfeited. It was postponed by the GAA, and the intention has always been that it will be played if possible.
Not sure about the hurling. I think that was a forfeit and the Cats going the two points, but not sure.
They won't decide until Tuesday re whether the Dublin and Waterford games are deferred or forfeits. But, assuming nothing untoward happens between now and then, I'd be pretty confident they'll be regarded as deferred and Cork will be allowed to play on.
Quote from: Hound on February 15, 2008, 02:04:09 PM
Quote from: LaurelEye on February 15, 2008, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 12:51:26 PM
Here's a question for the club officials and rules experts amongst us. If you request, in advance, a postponement of a match, does it count as a fixture not being fulfilled? Or is it simply a postponement? I'm not talking about not turning up, or not requesting a postponement until the morning of the game.
Depends on the county concerned, I suppose. My experience has been (as a club secretary) that unless it's for a very good reason (a death, etc.) it's a forfeit of the match. The likes of the current fiasco in Cork wouldn't be tolerated at club level. But then I suppose elites have their own rules.
But it was very clear that the Meath game was not forfeited. It was postponed by the GAA, and the intention has always been that it will be played if possible.
Q.E.D.
In a similar situation at club level, Hound, the get-out clause of saying that the match was being postponed because of a row going on within one club wouldn't be tolerated. That's what I was saying based on experience.
If you think I'm aiming a skite at Dónal Óg & Co with the "elites" comment, well, yes I am, but I'm also including Frank Murphy in the skite; the two groups are well-met and deserve each other.
I doubt if this fiasco would have been indulged by Croke Park at county level either, had it been going on in a county less powerful than Cork.
Just an observation, but those who refer to the 60 odd county players in cork who are witholding their services as "donal og & co" "the gpa led payers" or similar, display an extraordinary level of preconceived bias which will obviously colour their view on this subject.
The GPA stand behind the strikers "full square", and Donal Og is one of the leaders of the GPA and is the main spokeman of the Cork strikers.............therefore it is not really a stretch to name them as Donal Og & Co. As well it is not a stretch to see the GPA watching this case as a possible test case of their ability to change the poilicies and makeup of co boards everywhere. Afterall if they can succeed in Cork well everywhere else should be a cinch!! Just as a query why did the hurlers take it upon themselves to be the main spokespeople for the footballers anyway?? The first time I saw or heard any footballer being interviewed was 2 weeks ago!!
Quote from: Uladh on February 15, 2008, 02:40:16 PM
Just an observation, but those who refer to the 60 odd county players in cork who are witholding their services as "donal og & co" "the gpa led payers" or similar, display an extraordinary level of preconceived bias which will obviously colour their view on this subject.
I think if you reveiew the more recent posts that very few are refering to the GPA boys or their involvement, in fact most people have labelled the whole lot, players and CB, as been jointly responsible for the mess. With the GAA getting tarred with the same brush as time goes on.
In fact, we are more concerned about the punishment rather than the guilty parties ;D ;D
Still no word? I wonder if the agreement to abide by the 'binding arbitration' is under threat. I'd say there's some pulling and pushing going on there now.
It's taking a good bit longerr than expected alright. Surely neither side can try to back out of binding arbitration? That would be madness. But then again this is Cork.
Quote from: cicfada on February 15, 2008, 02:52:52 PM
The GPA stand behind the strikers "full square", and Donal Og is one of the leaders of the GPA and is the main spokeman of the Cork strikers.............therefore it is not really a stretch to name them as Donal Og & Co.
There are a lot of people who stand full square behind them. you just prefer to focus on one set of people because it suits you.
Quote from: cicfada on February 15, 2008, 02:52:52 PM
As well it is not a stretch to see the GPA watching this case as a possible test case of their ability to change the poilicies and makeup of co boards everywhere. Afterall if they can succeed in Cork well everywhere else should be a cinch!!
That is some of the most whimsical scare story thinking i've ever read. is there evidence to back that up anywhere beyond the confins of your skull?
Quote from: cicfada on February 15, 2008, 02:52:52 PM
Just as a query why did the hurlers take it upon themselves to be the main spokespeople for the footballers anyway?? The first time I saw or heard any footballer being interviewed was 2 weeks ago!!
Have you really not read up on the issue? you are not aware that this issue affects the hurlers as much as it does the footballers? although i'm not informed on the intricicies of how they arrived at their spokemen, i am aware of how spokesmen are appointed for a group. generally, if i were looking for a spokesman to repesent a colective to which i belonged,i would vote for the most articulate and intelligent to present my case and argue through negotiations.
According to Newstalk, both sides are still waiting for Kieran Mulvey's binding ruling.
Come on Mulvey, for Jaysus' sake.
Give it 'til five AZ, and then send someone up to Béal na mBláth to look for the body...
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 03:33:41 PM
According to Newstalk, both sides are still waiting for Kieran Mulvey's binding ruling.
Come on Mulvey, for Jaysus' sake.
I suppose there's no hurry now that the games have been called off anyway.
Everyone seems to be expecting that the resolution will involve Teddy taking the high jump. I'm usually wrong, but I can't see that. How can Mulvey propose that the rules be broken and a properly appointed officer be sacked? From what we know, Teddy isn't for going voluntarily, and it doesn't seem he was part of the talks, so I can't see how he would have been persuaded to go.
Of course it's not beyond Frank and co. to come up with a loophole to determine that Teddy was never properly appointed in the first place - maybe annul it for lack of consummation, or something :). But I couldn't see Mulvey being party to that sort of thing.
I'd imagine the players will have to take Teddy for the season. The arbitration enables the climbdown to be presented in a more face-saving way - "bound by the arbitration", "but we didn't back down", "good of Cork GAA", etc.
Very possibly Hardy, very possibly. However, we'll have to wait and see. There'll be some spin no matter what happens.
Apparently Holland and the four selectors are gone
Source?
(I'm not doubting you actually, that's what I expect to happen).
Quote from: CompulsoryTillager on February 15, 2008, 03:50:08 PM
Apparently Holland and the four selectors are gone
If these is so i'm going to hand the win to the players a KO
No way GNevin. If this is the case, this allows the County Board to sacrifice Teddy Holland (Which I believe was always going to be their get out clause) while at the same time keeping the system that they had voted in.
Remember what the players were protesting about initially. It had feck all to do with Teddy Holland. Teddy became an issue when he took the job in the middle of the protest. He crossed the line, and in their eyes, betrayed them.
The system of the County Board appointing selectors looks like it has survived.
Tis true!
so what now? seriously has the issue over the selectors been resolved and what if they dont like the new manager or they are outvoted on the selection committee?
According to the proposals put forward a week or so ago, the players would have 2 representatives on a 7 man panel. Outvoted is not the word....
By the way, Newstalk are now saying they understand that Teddy and selectors are to step down, as this is the recommendation by Mulvey.
It didn't say anything about the other details.
According to local radio station "sources close to both camps" have confirmed that TH and selectors will be relieved of their duties. Seems CB have got Mulvey to do the dirty deed for them.
My understanding is that they will, with great regret, step down for the good of the county. It is not a foregone conclusion but I was told that today from someone who is right at the crux of it all. Hopefully it will see an end to the nonsense.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 04:05:24 PM
No way GNevin. If this is the case, this allows the County Board to sacrifice Teddy Holland (Which I believe was always going to be their get out clause) while at the same time keeping the system that they had voted in.
Remember what the players were protesting about initially. It had feck all to do with Teddy Holland. Teddy became an issue when he took the job in the middle of the protest. He crossed the line, and in their eyes, betrayed them.
The system of the County Board appointing selectors looks like it has survived.
Isnt the system up for review next September?
So who's going to manage them now?
Quote from: Gnevin on February 15, 2008, 04:12:45 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 15, 2008, 04:05:24 PM
No way GNevin. If this is the case, this allows the County Board to sacrifice Teddy Holland (Which I believe was always going to be their get out clause) while at the same time keeping the system that they had voted in.
Remember what the players were protesting about initially. It had feck all to do with Teddy Holland. Teddy became an issue when he took the job in the middle of the protest. He crossed the line, and in their eyes, betrayed them.
The system of the County Board appointing selectors looks like it has survived.
Isnt the system up for review next September?
Yes, it is. In another County Board vote, which give him the system he wants for 9 months, and 9 months to work his 'magic' on the club delegates.
Outright victory for the players then.
Lets start a bet on when they will strike again, 2002-2007-2012 would be my bet......
Quote from: SuperDooperCooper on February 15, 2008, 04:16:23 PM
Outright victory for the players then.
Lets start a bet on when they will strike again, 2002-2007-2012 would be my bet......
Seriously, how do you see that SDC? Not trying to be smart, but the players are going to be playing under a manager appointed by the county board, and selectors appointed by the county board. The players were protesting against that from the start.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 15, 2008, 04:12:18 PM
My understanding is that they will, with great regret, step down for the good of the county. It is not a foregone conclusion but I was told that today from someone who is right at the crux of it all. Hopefully it will see an end to the nonsense.
Was probably going to be the end result, the first player who comes out with "Teddy is a great Cork & GAA man and its wasn't him we had the issue with but the system that appointed him" should get a slap of a hurl (regardless of its been a footballer or huler ;D ).
Langers the lot of them*
* - Players, CB & Gaa
Quote from: SuperDooperCooper on February 15, 2008, 04:16:23 PM
Outright victory for the players then.
Lets start a bet on when they will strike again, 2002-2007-2012 would be my bet......
Won't happen ever again, according to the conditions of the agreement they must never strike again.
Other two are Holland be removed and a 7 man committee (5 CB and 2 players) select the new manager.
who would want it after all this aul crap?
Ach sure we dont like him now "all out"
There's been a lot of talk of John Allen stepping in during the interim period to manager the footballers, is this realistic?
here's your source
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2008/0215/cork1.html
Quote
Cork crisis resolved in sensational fashion
Friday, 15 February 2008 16:43
Cork senior football manager Teddy Holland and his selectors have sensationally stepped down from their positions in an effort to clear the impasse that has seen inter-county action in the Rebel County grind to a halt.
The step is the first of three recommendations made by Labour Relations chief executive Kieran Mulvey, who made an independent judgement on the dispute between the striking players and the Cork County Board this afternoon.
Mulvey has also recommended that the new manager be appointed by a committee of seven, five of whom would include members of the county board with the remaining position filled by current players.
The players have also agreed to never take strike again.
Ealier today, the GAA confirmed that the two matches involving Cork county teams scheduled for this weekend have been called off.
The footballers were due to play Dublin, while the hurlers had been down to meet Waterford.
No decision regarding the rescheduling of the games, or if points should be forfeited, will be made until the Central Competitions Control Committee meeting on Tuesday.
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on February 15, 2008, 04:47:59 PM
here's your source
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2008/0215/cork1.html
Quote
Cork crisis resolved in sensational fashion
Friday, 15 February 2008 16:43
Cork senior football manager Teddy Holland and his selectors have sensationally stepped down from their positions in an effort to clear the impasse that has seen inter-county action in the Rebel County grind to a halt.
The step is the first of three recommendations made by Labour Relations chief executive Kieran Mulvey, who made an independent judgement on the dispute between the striking players and the Cork County Board this afternoon.
Mulvey has also recommended that the new manager be appointed by a committee of seven, five of whom would include members of the county board with the remaining position filled by current players.
The players have also agreed to never take strike again.
Ealier today, the GAA confirmed that the two matches involving Cork county teams scheduled for this weekend have been called off.
The footballers were due to play Dublin, while the hurlers had been down to meet Waterford.
No decision regarding the rescheduling of the games, or if points should be forfeited, will be made until the Central Competitions Control Committee meeting on Tuesday.
never strike again classic , and i promise never to breath or eat again
So what was all this about really ???
Quote from: orangeman on February 15, 2008, 05:01:40 PM
So what was all this about really ???
so donal og and sean og could go on another power trip ::)
Ah well, wrong again. How did they get Teddy to walk?
So, what next for Cusack and his merry rump of GPA malcontents after this GAA-facilitated PR coup? They end up accepting what they went on strike to reject but only the GAA could manage to screw it up so badly that the likes of Eugene McGee can proclaim it as "game set and match to the players".
First the grants rollover, now player power sees a properly constituted appointment overthrown and a defeat on the main issue sold as a major victory because they managed to get a sacrificial head. Meanwhile the players of Dublin, Kilkenny and Meath kick their heels awaiting the convenience of the primadonnas of Cork when they finally decide they're good and ready to come out to play. Tawdry carry-on all round and a disgrace to all concerned.
What now for Teddy and Co. ?
Are the Meath Cork and Cork Dublin games going to be refixed?
wireless says the new manager, selected by players and county board, will appoint his own selectors
A tawdry affair indeed, which makes a mockery of democratic processes within the G.A.A. Apart from the very dubious legality of the arbitration process, a precedent has been set for any disaffected rump to disrupt and attempt to force their will on the majority. A message has been sent out that some members are more important than others. Shame on you Cork
Great day for Cork GAA that the players have seemingly won out.The future of Cork GAA is in debt to these group of players. I think this is the players 2 the county board 0 now.
As part of the settlement today All Cork players have been given a short piece of string to stop their rattles from falling out of the pram in future, Donal Og Cusack has signed a sponsoship deal with Pampers while Graham Canty has been signed up by Kleenex.
Will Donal Og be one of the players on the selestion jury, it doesnt say whether it has to be 2 footballers, whats the betting Frankie Murphy will be one of the 5 from the county board.
This is not over by a long way yet, just round 1 to the players , but whats happens if the selection committes votes 5:2 in favour of reinstating Teddy Holland. Then there will be fun.
And No Strikes by the players in the future, thats will be good to see lasting out the year.
Either way the langers continue to be the laughing stock of the football world. They have given us Kerry people some memorable days out in the last few years in Croke Park and we are trilled that they are starting off this year in the same vein.
And what of the football and hurling leagues that they have managed to f**k up 2 rounds of, will the GAA just bend over and take one from the Langers or do the right thing now and feck them out on their collective arses as they would if it was another county
because this whole selection thing wont be solved for weeks yet, and there will be further games called off in hurling and football., Its not fair for the counties they are fixed against not to mention the poor old clubs in Cork and the other counties whose fixture list will bbe thrown out of kilter if replays are ordered.
Cmon Cork get out and play ball, the whinging season is over.
I would think many people that would have no interest whether the Langers won anything this year will want them to get their arses kicked in both codes.......
I wonder had the Longford or Leitrim or Sligo or Cavan players gone 'on strike' would the Kieran Mulveys and Nickey Brennans have raced down to solve things.
Am I being horrid cynical if I think money and sponsorship was behind all of this? Hard to see the hurling championship get a good new sponsorship deal without 'Da Ribbils'.
Apologies if this has come up before - I can't read 65 pages about dem feckin Langers.
A curse on both their houses.
There's no word yet from Teddy Holland. Its assumed that he will follow the county board's lead and accept the arbitrator's ruling. He may have been mad to take the job with all the trouble then brewing but its still hard to give up something you've obviously coveted after a process that you weren't part of.
Still twill be nice to beat meet Cork again this year.
This entire affair has ramifications for every county boys and girls - we may as well start appointing senior players to management selection committees now in every county now.
Very disappointed for TH and the GAA as a whole
Both the county board and more especially the players should hang their heads in shame tonight. A dedicated team of gaels led by Teddy Holland VOLUNTEERED to take on a job this year, giving up a part of their own lives in the cuase of Cork football - tonight they've had to leave the job, as a result of a panel of players who obviously think they're a lot better than they really are.
I had huge respect for the Cork players, particulary Sean Og - in future I'll look upon him as the man who called for the manager and FM to stand aside - all the respect I had for him is gone -
It is indeed a very sad day for GAA in Ireland.
Quote from: stephenite on February 15, 2008, 10:39:51 PM
This entire affair has ramifications for every county boys and girls - we may as well start appointing senior players to management selection committees now in every county now.
Very disappointed for TH and the GAA as a whole
Or how about counties do what anyone with a brain would do and let the manager pick his own selectors or is that too much to ask for????
Quote from: orangeman on February 15, 2008, 11:11:38 PM
Teddy Holland VOLUNTEERED to take on a job this year,
Even though he knew he had no players.
Had the man any cop at all.
So for the umpteenth time in a few years the GAA is now finished - Rule 21/Rule 42/Grants/GPA/Cork situation/Aussie Rules taking players.....etc etc ::)
How long before player power spreads to Clubs, rendering club committees redundant. Volunteers are going to be increasingly hard to find, the way things are going.
Get rid of all the players. Then we'll have a perfect GAA. ;D
No, just the egotistical ones with a grossly exaggerated sense of their own importance.
QuoteSo for the umpteenth time in a few years the GAA is now finished - Rule 21/Rule 42/Grants/GPA/Cork situation/Aussie Rules taking players.....etc etc
Roscommon "progressives", of whom there seem to be a remarkable number, should know when to keep their traps shut.
Their county board is the most incompetent, bungling body of the GAA, running up record debts in excess of €1 million.
If it wasn't for the generosity of the GAA as a national body, you would be financially ruined, and in any other sport you would be bust and no longer exist.
Rossfan, I happen to believe that some of the above will irrevocably damage the GAA, although not all of them. Even if you do not agree with another's opinions, you should accept their genuineness and cut the sarcasm.
You are in no position to laugh at others.
You are in no position to laugh at others
That's an understatement !
Quote from: Pangurban on February 15, 2008, 11:44:38 PM
No, just the egotistical ones with a grossly exaggerated sense of their own importance.
which ones is that then?
Quote from: Pangurban on February 15, 2008, 11:44:38 PM
No, just the egotistical ones with a grossly exaggerated sense of their own importance.
Does that not apply to the administrators also????
Has Teddy made a statement or is he remaining tight lipped ? Will they be able to get a compensation package ?
QuoteDoes that not apply to the administrators also?Huh
Of course it does. Starting with the chief administrator of the GPA.
I imagine you've finished your press-release on Holland's shafting, KingDub...
in all fairness lads, whichever side of the debate you sit on surely everyone agrees that TH has been very naive. and that's putting it extremely mildly
The GPA had no role to play in this dispute - I'm told it was organised by the Cork players only - I know Donal Og is on the GPA committee but he was not representing the GPA here.
http://sports.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2008/02/15/GAA-Cork-county-board-meeting/?facets/sport-space/ireland-locale/gaa/
Could still be life in this old dog yet .
"It is also understood that under Mulvey's recommendations, the Cork manager would have the right to choose his own selectors.
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on February 15, 2008, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: stephenite on February 15, 2008, 10:39:51 PM
This entire affair has ramifications for every county boys and girls - we may as well start appointing senior players to management selection committees now in every county now.
Very disappointed for TH and the GAA as a whole
Or how about counties do what anyone with a brain would do and let the manager pick his own selectors or is that too much to ask for????
I couldn't agree more DFS, the County Board were certainly the ones that started this. However, the GAA structure is the same in every county and this case has now proven that the democratic procedures that are supposedly sacrosanct within the organisation can be usurped whenever the players are unhappy with the result of anything that is decided by the County Board delegates, and my fear is that this will not be restricted to the issue at hand, managers appointing their own selectors.
Players of Inter county standard and the managers involved with them have been given a ringing endorsment to ride roughshod over anything that is decided at CB level and this will be felt by every club player in the land sooner or later. There have been recent mumblings about what needs to be done to improve the lot of the club player - this decision is exactly the opposite of what needed to be done.
If anyone thinks that the result of this whole sorry mess does not respresent something that is going to have a resounding effect on the entire Inter county scene has their head in the sand. I think that the delegates at congress will bite back at the inter county scene and we'll have the entire GPA out on stirke soon enough
Holland issued the following statement last night dealing with the controversy:
"For my part, I promised the players that I would not make any comment up to now that would impact on the attempt to find a resolution and I have kept my part of the bargain.
"In recent weeks I have found myself in a position where I have been either vilified or patronised in the media by people who know nothing about me and whom I've never met. It has been a very difficult experience for an amateur sports person to be in and I would like, for the first time, to make my own position clear.
"Firstly, I am neither a county board man nor a player's man. I find the attempts to polarise people into one or other of these categories simplistic in the extreme and the most negative development of recent weeks.
"I am my own man and I am proud to be a Cork football man. I believe it important to clarify a number of points about my appointment. The presentation of that has been wholly inaccurate, even disingenuous, and has informed much of the comment in recent times.
"I was the preferred choice of three candidates for the position. Six people did not, as has been suggested, turn the position down. In fact, no one did. I accepted the position on the same basis as I accepted my position as manager of the minor footballers in 2000 — who incidentally won the All-Ireland. I had a full input into the appointment of my selectors and I would have been extremely happy to work with a group who have a fine experience of club and county football.
"There was no strike or threat of strike when I agreed to take up the appointment. If the existence of tension between player representatives and the county board was seen as a reason not to take up an appointment, then nothing would have moved in Cork GAA for years.
"I believe the role of former managers- turned-pundits has been particularly unhelpful in recent weeks as genuine efforts were being made to resolve differences. Far from facilitating a resolution, they became actors in the play and were, in my view, an unhelpful and pressurising presence. Which brings me to the main purpose of this statement. In common with most Cork people, I am appalled by the degree of animosity which exists between players and the county board. It is probably unique and a poor boast for all concerned.
''In the course of this dispute, the nature of many of the public and private utterances have been unnecessarily ugly, personalised and hurtful to many people and reflect little credit on anyone. It is time for it to stop.
"The issues of recent weeks must prompt serious reflection on the part of Cork County Board on why this disconnect between players and the board exists.
"I would like to think that the players are open to learning from the drama of the last few weeks. A bit of calm would be a fine thing to restore. They need to recognise that strength of purpose is not the same as extreme action.
"As a GAA man, I found it extraordinary that they would refuse to allow the Runai of the Association, Paraic Duffy, and Kieran Mulvey, the most experienced dispute resolution expert in the country, to speak with them as a group. Where I come from, that would be regarded as offensive and disrespectful.
"The notion that the players somehow monopolise a desire to win is a myth. Last year's All-Ireland Final was the most chaotic, abject capitulation in the history of Cork football. It lacked all the qualities which I stand for and which I hope the players can learn in time.
"In their more honest moments, the players might reflect on their performances that day and use them as a motivation to drive them forward.
''In attempting to reach success, players must keep in mind that they are carried on the shoulders of tens of thousands of Cork men, women and children who admire them and envy them. Dare I say it, managers, selectors and boards also make their own important contribution.
"To reach a resolution, my head on a plate was the players' demand. I am quite happy in my own skin with what I did. I was not used and was not a pawn in anyone's game. I looked forward to working with the players, to improving their performances and in bringing forward perhaps as many as 12 new players onto the panel.
"Going forward, it might help if players were humble enough to accept that we are all transient and replaceable. The Cork jersey is held in trust by us all — players, coaches, mentors and the board, and it is our role to do the very best for it and what it represents.
"There is nothing "them and us" about achieving success. It is "us" or it is nothing.
"Finally, I would like to thank the members of my family, my employers, and many friends within the GAA and many people who I never met for their support in recent weeks."
A very learned friend of mines, always says that the GAA is about players, everything that we have is built around our games and the players are the reason games are played. The players bring in their faily connections and when it is all put togethr you have the community built on those families pulling together for the same goal...to play the games. I feel that this type of event was inevitable sometime. Respect is such a simple thing to say , but an entirely different thing to put into practise, and the events that have unfolded in Cork are but a mirror image of the disrespect that many coiunty board members show players....and why is this...i believe it is because they genuinely do not understand nor appreciate the effort and sacrifice needed to play intercounty games today. Whilst most county players are being asked to participate in a professional preparation model, the vast amount of county board members are in the volunteer mode and as such will naturally equate their own sacrifices as being similar....and this is where it starts. This is where alot of work needs to be done in helping CB understand todays county players sacrifices, because in my mind if this does not happen this event will be witnessed again in the future
Very gracious piece by TH.
True Max. Added to that is the a frequent underlying resentment from many county board members towards county players. this is usually borne out through a feeling, rightly or wrongly, of not being appreciated by the masses. rarely do you see a county board member interviewed, hunted for autographs or recognised by kids. many county board members feel, and they are entitled to their opinion of course, that they sacrafice as much as these fawned over "stars".
Quote from: orangeman on February 16, 2008, 11:58:17 AM
Very gracious piece by TH.
I couldn't disagree more. he's cetainly played the martyr card but he has misrepresented the facts in several areas to paint himself in a good light.
he also calls for the mudslinging in the press to stop just before he attacks an assorted number of fellow cork gaels.
Uladh - TH had the sense to keep his mouth during the whole proceedings unlike the players who prostituted themselves before the media throughout.
Quote from: Uladh on February 16, 2008, 12:02:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on February 16, 2008, 11:58:17 AM
Very gracious piece by TH.
I couldn't disagree more. he's cetainly played the martyr card but he has misrepresented the facts in several areas to paint himself in a good light.
he also calls for the mudslinging in the press to stop just before he attacks an assorted number of fellow cork gaels.
I assume that you know the exact facts that he has misrepresented in his statement. I am sure we all look forward to hearing them saying that you have the inside track as well as TH has.
At least he waited till it is all over and had the backbone (unlike the CB) to say exactly what he was feeling. He didn't go to the papers ala Sean Og in the middle of the dispute or address the Cork GAA public at the "rally" ala Noel O'Leary.
The GAA is all about the players and rightly so, but it is the palying that they should stick. They have no business getting involved in picking managers, if they want to they should seek to get elected. Big deal if the County board wants to pick selectors, they pick the manager for feck sake!!!
Someone mentioned Sean Og for politics a few years ago - obviously his talents were spotted before this dispute took place - ;D
After that statement from TH there is no doubt who in Cork has real class and is a real man and can anybody in the country disagree with his statement about last years All Ireland final.
The players would disagree - they reckon it wasn'y their fault !
As Paidi said a few weeks ago, he cwas amazed that the Cork players would have had a stomach for striking after shiting themselves last September !
Quote from: quidnunc on February 15, 2008, 11:46:12 PM
Roscommon "progressives", of whom there seem to be a remarkable number, should know when to keep their traps shut.
Their county board is the most incompetent, bungling body of the GAA, running up record debts in excess of €1 million.
If it wasn't for the generosity of the GAA as a national body, you would be financially ruined, and in any other sport you would be bust and no longer exist.
You are in no position to laugh at others.
Firstly whether the former Ros Co Board messed up their finances or not -I and others from Ros can speak when and where and about what we want - (or is it only " Reactionaries" who have that right?).
Secondly I dont recall the GAA at National level giving us money to pay debts run up in building a stand at Hyde Park and floodlights at Kilbride. If they did isnt the GAA one big co operative anyway unlike say soccer where each club is a stand or fall alone entity.
They got a firm of accountants to put a bit of shape on our accounts and a generous Ros man gave the Co Board €1m interest free loan to be paid back in 2012.
How you can describe our former Co Board as the worst most bungling in the GAA beats me when you see the mess in Cork where for the second time in 5 years their players refused to play for them.
Or is it because the Cork board are among the leading reactionaries in the GAA that you wont criticise them.?
At least we always field teams - although maybe sometimes we would be better off not to :-[
I'm not laughing at anyone but certain "on message" posters here seem to see the ruination of the GAA in any change at all.
The GAA is a strong oul flower that has survived 124 years through wars,revolutions,political splits,Civil War, Soccer and Rugby surges etc etc and I suspect it will survive having two playewrs on a Committee in Cork.
So is this strike over or not?
http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/2008/2/597/5776/580340_336794514601Hollandre.html
Quote from: Gnevin on February 16, 2008, 02:26:28 PM
So is this strike over or not?
http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/2008/2/597/5776/580340_336794514601Hollandre.html
The strike is over if the binding arbitration is followed through.
But typical of Holland to refuse to co-operate. His actions don't surprise me. Everything he's done indicates he is a class one, pee, or, eye, see, kay.
Funny - all I know of him is what I read in his quoted statement (I take no notice of what's in the papers) and he comes across to me as the only one who has behaved with dignity throughout this circus. Of course, it's no surprise then that he's the one who gets shafted. I still don't understand under what rule they're going to fire him if he refuses to be the patsy.
Any word of who is going to be on the selection commitee ? Will Donal Og and Sean Og be still as vocal ?
Any word from Teddy Mc Carthy ?
He was silly to have taken on the role in the forst place seeing as there was a dispute ongoing.
I presume the Co Board can overturn any of its own decisions any time it sees fit ??
Presumably all it takes is for someone to propose that TH be "stood down",seconded and voted on.
What happens if such a motion was defeated :o
have taken the winter off, in fact have to admit mentally switched off prior to all-ireland(in hindsight good move). having read a lot re strike, while there is ample blame to go around, I cannot but hope that cork seniors lose every game in every code for the next twelve months.
Their footballers should be fffinn embarrased over their last competitive display, as for the hurlers, well ego's seem to rule the day there.
As an aside, i wonder will many 50/50 calls go their way over the next year, human nature being what it is.
Does this sorry episode mean that going forward, every county manager is at the mercy of player power. ?
Does this sorry episode mean that going forward, every county manager is at the mercy of player power. ?[/i
Not only every county manager, but every club manager as well.
However, Holland and his selectors met the County Board last night and the football manager insisted that he would not resign his position.
Thuis saga hasn't ended yet ???????
I have tried to stay out of this one as much as I could as it is a very sorry episode with both sides intent on destroying each other. A lot of posters have taken sides here to adhere to their usual agendas that aren't really relevant here which turns this into a pretty pointless thread.
You have two goups of people who have given most of their lives to the Gaa, to give priority to one group over the other from afar is at best naive.
Mulvey is a very sincere and clever individual. He will try to leave a way out for everyone if possible. Holland innocently wandered into the firing line and Mulvey struggled but probably still managed to leave a way out for him. Holland's statement is a disaster for Mulvey's arbitration and shows scant regard for the county he claims to love. He hurls (sorry bad pun) insults at those he criticises for hurling insults. He should have said nothing because he will now see all guns pointed at him. I dont honestly think he deserves that but his egotistical statement means there will be very little sympathy.
He should have been wise enough to leave as a martyr, instead he will be the patsy.
It'll be interesting to see who actually ends up with the job of managing the footballers now - surely anyone available would be fairly uncomfortable with players having a say in the process? Will they form part of an Interview panel?
For those in Cork that claimed TH wasn't the best man available for the job, they might end up with someone a hell of a lot worse!
That's right Stephenite, although the players never said (as far as I know) that Teddy wasn't the best man for the job. They just wouldn't work with him because (they said, though he disagrees) he wouldn't follow their instructions not to put himself forward for selection.
It makes you wonder about their frequent proclamations that this was all about optimising their competitiveness if the ability of the manager didn't even come up for discussion in all the wild words that flew back and forth for a month. Surely having the best manager available would contribute more to success than the mechanism for selecting the selectors.
Instead, their whole agenda seemed* to be driven by their petulance because somebody disagreed with them, to the extent that the only success they achieved from the whole sorry affair was the head of Teddy Holland.
*Another interpretation is that Donal Og and the GPA connection knew they had lost but couldn't be seen to lose, so the head of Teddy Holland became am obvious trophy in a redefined competition that they couldn't lose.
I had the opportunity over the past few days to speak with a large number of well connected Cork GAA folk and one of the issues I was keen to clear up was TH ability to do the job. To say that TH isn't rated is a gross understatement, I already knew Teddy wasn't a brilliant coach but my worst fears were confirmed by the many people I spoke to. The reason his abilities weren't publicly questioned was because the players didn't want to personalise the issue and the fact that fighting on TH abilities would be a shakey position on which to stand.
Quote from: Zulu on February 17, 2008, 03:10:40 PM
I had the opportunity over the past few days to speak with a large number of well connected Cork GAA folk and one of the issues I was keen to clear up was TH ability to do the job. To say that TH isn't rated is a gross understatement, I already knew Teddy wasn't a brilliant coach but my worst fears were confirmed by the many people I spoke to. The reason his abilities weren't publicly questioned was because the players didn't want to personalise the issue and the fact that fighting on TH abilities would be a shakey position on which to stand.
If that is the case ( and I doubt he as bad as you're making out, although he may not have been the best choice) than it makes the whole mess worse imho.
Firstly, the players have been acting not on their principles that he took the post when they asked not to but on the basis that they felt he wasn;t good enough for th job and they didn't want to play for him. Hence they wanted him sacked.
Secondly, the CB for putting someone in place that they knew would accept the job when the main leaders for the role wouldn;t have taken it. Hence they tried to take the power from the players. But would they risk having a couple of very poor years at Intercounty level if this man was so bad?
QuoteIf that is the case ( and I doubt he as bad as you're making out, although he may not have been the best choice) than it makes the whole mess worse imho.
As I don't have any personal knowledge of his coaching abilities I didn't really comment on that over the course of this debate. I did say he wasn't highly regarded but from my conversations over the past few days it is clear he is a very poor coach.
QuoteFirstly, the players have been acting not on their principles that he took the post when they asked not to but on the basis that they felt he wasn;t good enough for th job and they didn't want to play for him. Hence they wanted him sacked.
The players
did go on strike over the fact that the manager couldn't pick his own selectors and they stated this before Teddy was appointed. But the extremely poor backroom team the CB assembled must have only served to strengthen the players resolve.
QuoteSecondly, the CB for putting someone in place that they knew would accept the job when the main leaders for the role wouldn;t have taken it. Hence they tried to take the power from the players. But would they risk having a couple of very poor years at Intercounty level if this man was so bad?
According to some of the lads I spoke to FM couldn't care less about Cork football, so I'd say there is every chance they put together this bunch out of less than admirable motivation. Anyone who knows anything about Cork football will tell you this was a very poor backroom team with not even one outstanding member.
Why is Holland hanging on?
Quote from: Gnevin on February 17, 2008, 06:02:12 PM
Why is Holland hanging on?
I think Teddy is well within his rights to ask the Co. Board why they want him to resign. The very least they owe him is an explanation of why they appointed him a few weeks ago and are asking him to leave now, with no games played in the interim. How can they respond? There are only two possible answers I can think of:
1. We messed up. Because of our mismanagement there is no alternative. You did nothing wrong.
- He's entitled to have that said in public if this is the answer.
2. The players won't have you.
- If this is the answer, he's entitled to ask in public and on behalf of a large constituency of GAA people, what does this mean for the future of GAA administration? Whither GAA democracy? How do we preclude this scenario being repeated up and down the country, with players' groups or any other ad hoc pressure group, vetoing Co. Board decisions and where does the next manager stand at the moment of his appointment? Is he to seek the endorsement of the players before taking up his duties and how often must he go back to the players for continuing endorsement?
What exactly would that achieve? Reclaim the high moral ground lost by his statement?
I don't see anything wrong with his statement.
I'm not speculating on what it would achieve. I'm not sure why Teddy Holland should be the only one in the whole debacle saddled with the requirement to achieve something. What have the Co. Board and the players achieved?
I'm saying he's within his rights in refusing to allow the Co. Board to treat him as a doormat. Asking an office holder to resign is a public act that usually carries the implication of dissatisfaction with the performance of the person being asked to resign. Why should he allow them to do that to him, without an explanation?
Did Teddy not win an All Ireland minor in 2000? You don't pick them up off the ground. I'm sure he's no amadán.
Quote from: Zulu on February 17, 2008, 03:10:40 PM
I had the opportunity over the past few days to speak with a large number of well connected Cork GAA folk and one of the issues I was keen to clear up was TH ability to do the job. To say that TH isn't rated is a gross understatement, I already knew Teddy wasn't a brilliant coach but my worst fears were confirmed by the many people I spoke to. The reason his abilities weren't publicly questioned was because the players didn't want to personalise the issue and the fact that fighting on TH abilities would be a shakey position on which to stand.
Funny, that. I was talking to a large number of well connected Cork GAA folk and they were adamant that he is a very highly regarded GAA coach, pointing to his AI minor success as just one indication of his abilities. Apparently very highly thought of from my contacts.
They've also informed that there is a groundswell of anger from clubs that their decision has been reversed without their permission, apparently quite a large number of clubs have discussed this and some have contacted Holland urging him not to resign because he has the full support of the clubs. However great this number might actually be I have no idea. If Frank Murphy has the vice like grip over the delegates that people have argued was the reason for the initial 2 votes to begin with than surely he'll have no problem having the arbitration results being adopted by the delegates this time around
From De paper
Teddy: the final hours
By Michael Moynihan and Brendan Larkin
THE bitter Cork GAA stand-off involving striking players, football coach Teddy Holland and the county board is "within hours" of resolution, board officials claimed last night.
But it will conclude with a final sting in the tail, after Holland and his four selectors declined to resign in two hours of talks with board officers yesterday.
That has triggered another full county board meeting tonight, when delegates may be asked to vote for the removal of Holland and his selectors, Diarmuid O'Donovan, Teddy McCarthy, Liam Hodnett and Mick O'Loughlin.
Holland and his management team met on "businesslike" terms with the executive of the county board yesterday at Páirc Ui Rinn. However, the absence of any formal resignation from the coach suggests that they remain in their posts for another day. If that is the case then delegates will be asked to remove them in accordance with the ruling made by Labour Relations Commission chief Kieran Mulvey last week.
Given that the executive of the board have agreed that Holland and his selectors must step aside, their support should be enough to carry any vote taken on the issue tonight. However, there may be one final twist left in the saga, as it is understood that some club delegates sympathise with Holland and his four selectors and may not support any motion put forward to oust them.
If a vote taken tonight to remove the football management team were to be defeated, it is not clear how the board might then carry out the ruling by which they are bound.
Last night Cork PRO Bob Ryan predicted that the end of the current impasse "is within hours".
Ryan said that the meeting was called yesterday as "those involved deserved courtesy of time to look and reflect on the document."
He added: "We had a cordial meeting and a constructive meeting with Ted Holland and his selectors. The meeting was very amicable. We agreed with them on what needs to be done. We will report back to a full meeting of the Cork County Board tomorrow at Pairc Ui Chaoimh."
When questioned if the matter will go to a vote, Ryan replied: "That will all be revealed. There are protocols in place. There will be a meeting and a report to the delegates. I don't know if there will be a vote. There may be or there may not be. That will be up to the delegates who elected Ted Holland and his selectors."
Added Mr Ryan: "Ted Holland and his colleagues have put up with a lot over the last three months. Ted is one of the finest men I've ever met in sport. He and his family have been through a very difficult time with some very nasty publicity. Both he and the other selectors have dealt with it very well.
"We are very grateful as a board to them for putting their names forward initially for the positions, and I would hope that in the not too distant future, after they get a break from this situation, that they get a chance to serve Cork County again."
Mr Ryan said he hoped that Cork would be back on the playing field next weekend, and that the Central Competition Controls Committee would look favourably on rescheduling the games they have missed out on. He expects the Cork footballers to be in action next weekend even though county champions Nemo Rangers contest the All-Ireland club SFC championship semi-final against Mayo's Ballina Stephenites.
"I would say we would have a game next week. That would be normal. Many teams have played without players involved in the club championship during the League."
When questioned if Cork would have a management team in place next weekend Mr Ryan replied: "The executive got plenary power from the Board on Saturday night to do that."
However, Meath football boss Colm Coyle confirmed yesterday the Royals won't be playing Cork. "We made ourselves available twice," he blasted.
Click here for irishexaminer.com stories before this date
Prediction: Meath get kicked out of the league for refusing to play Cork! It wouldn't surprise me at this stage.
Anyway it seems as if it's not over yet and if the clubs don't play ball tonight, the whole thing could be escalated to a new level of farce. The crux of the thing may now be the Co. Board executive's decision to enter binding arbitration without a mandate and accept a binding resolution that they may not be able to deliver, if the clubs dig in their heels.
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2008, 07:50:59 AM
Prediction: Meath get kicked out of the league for refusing to play Cork! It wouldn't surprise me at this stage.
Anyway it seems as if it's not over yet and if the clubs don't play ball tonight, the whole thing could be escalated to a new level of farce. The crux of the thing may now be the Co. Board executive's decision to enter binding arbitration without a mandate and accept a binding resolution that they may not be able to deliver, if the clubs dig in their heels.
Well we've been told repeatedly that whatever Frank Murphy wants to happen, the clubs will follow suit, the clubs will not dare to vote to turn down the recommendations. If Frank was one of the main negotiators, then surely he will be able to ensure that the clubs follow his lead
I can't see it escalating too much further to be honest - Teddy Holland and the selectors will be gone.
Should Cork be allowed to just waltz back into the league. They were given a deadline whereby they could not miss 2 league games or they would be omitted from the league. Now it seems like they will sort this out 3 days too late and get back in. I would dock them some league points and then let them play their 7 games.
It was very funny last night when Cork PRO came out to make a statmement and made a slip when he said that they had just met with the "outgoing" management team !!!!!!!!! :D :D
QuoteFunny, that. I was talking to a large number of well connected Cork GAA folk and they were adamant that he is a very highly regarded GAA coach, pointing to his AI minor success as just one indication of his abilities. Apparently very highly thought of from my contacts.
Could you give me other indications of his abilities Stephenite, he is not highly regarded as a coach, so either you are exaggerating your connections or they have little real knowledge of TH coaching record/abilities. I'm only making a point of this is as there are many posters reading this thread who might question the veracity of my posts if another poster directly challenges the authenticity of them. And as the primary pro-Cork poster I don't want to come across as a bullsh*ter so unless your 'connections' can furnish some details as to why they regard him as a quality coach then their opinion holds no water.
With due respect Zulu, the man has won an All Ireland minor title, and was deemed good enough by the county board to train the seniors. You are the one who is saying he is not held in high regard, so I would suggest it's up to you to say why he isn't.
If Stephenite can show his contacts know what they are talking about I'll elaborate on some of my sources.
You show me yours, and I'll show you mine? :D Come off it. Teddy Holland has won an All Ireland Minor title, which is not peanuts, and was deemed good enough by the all-seeing Cork County Board. That's a bit of weight on the 'pro' side. So what are the 'cons'?
I'm not calling you a liar by any means, I think you've been very readable in this debate, but given those two facts at least, it's not enough to just say he is not held in high regard. Why not? Are his methods outdated? Has he no people management skills? What?
QuoteYou show me yours, and I'll show you mine? Come off it. Teddy Holland has won an All Ireland Minor title, which is not peanuts, and was deemed good enough by the all-seeing Cork County Board. That's a bit of weight on the 'pro' side. So what are the 'cons'?
I'm not calling you a liar by any means, I think you've been very readable in this debate, but given those two facts at least, it's not enough to just say he is not held in high regard. Why not? Are his methods outdated? Has he no people management skills? What?
Ok AZ, while I doubt the veracity of stephenites sources I'll elaborate on my own points. I spoke to players who played for him with Clon last year and Carbery Rangers some years ago, I also spoke with a lad involved in one of his backroom teams. Here are a few sample quotes, " His training consisted primarily of laps" (2 separate sources) "He ended up just putting out the cones" (One sources summary of his managerial involvement with his club), " He would have been hunted out if had tried to return this year" (About the possibility of him returning for a second year as manager), "nice man but poor coach" and of course he got Jack O'Connor down to take a few Clon sessions and he apparently wasn't the only outside coach brought in to help with the coaching. Since he hadn't one decent football coach with him on his backroom staff for Cork it would worry me greatly that the standard of coaching would be poor.
Since he hadn't one decent football coach with him on his backroom staff for Cork it would worry me greatly that the standard of coaching would be poor.
What about Teddy Mc Carthy ?? I suppose he'd know nothing about football or hurling ??????????
Teddy is not a football 'guy' orangeman. He is much more into the hurling end of things.
If I was a Cork county hurler or footballer I would be staying as far away from Thurles type incidents as possible this season. Its very hard to see FM or any of the CB riding to the rescue for a year or two!
If I was a Cork county hurler or footballer I would be staying as far away from Thurles type incidents as possible this season. Its very hard to see FM or any of the CB riding to the rescue for a year or two!
FM would be the first man there to defend Sean Og and Donal Og if they get into bother this year ! Ironic that. isn't it ?? ;)
Quote from: Zulu on February 18, 2008, 12:29:57 PM
while I doubt the veracity of stephenites sources I'll elaborate on my own points.
Zulu, when I made the point that info you posted from your "sources" cannot be taken as fact as there is no proof that they are true, you told me there was no point in talking to me if I wont take your word for it on these matters.
Now you are doing the exact same thing as I did and getting away with it ???
All I can say is bravo!
QuoteZulu, when I made the point that info you posted from your "sources" cannot be taken as fact as there is no proof that they are true, you told me there was no point in talking to me if I wont take your word for it on these matters.
Now you are doing the exact same thing as I did and getting away with it
All I can say is bravo!
You suggested I was lying and you never responded to that or apologised for it. The difference here is I don't doubt that Stephenite has contacts, but if they are saying TH is a well respected coach then I doubt their level of knowledge on that particular point. I'm not accusing Stephenite of making up 'sources' I'm just saying they must not know much about TH coaching history. There is a big difference IMO.
Oh and by the way OM I wouldn't let Teddy Mac within 20 miles of a football team.
Oh and by the way OM I wouldn't let Teddy Mac within 20 miles of a football team.
So Teddy is no good either ??
Who would you appoint then Zulu ?
QuoteSo Teddy is no good either ??
Teddy Mac has had no involvement in football since he hung up his boots, as AZ says hurling is his game and always has been. In fact he apparently told the dual players in a big dual club to pack in the football when he coached their hurlers. For anyone to be involved in an IC football set up they must eat, sleep and drink football IMO. And that is only the minimum requirement. As for someone who can do the job, well there are no standout candidates in Cork at the moment IMO but Tony Leahy would have to be high on anyone's list.
So Teddy's past glories stand for nothing ?
Quote from: Zulu on February 18, 2008, 04:21:31 PM
You suggested I was lying and you never responded to that or apologised for it.
Well Zulu, now you are telling porky pies.
What I said back then was that you cant come out with "I know a fella who says this" and expect everybody to accept this without skepticism, given that the reports conveniently back up your argument.
I wasnt accusing you of telling lies, I have no idea if you made this up or not.
I didnt apologise as I didnt accuse you of lying, you even accepted this at the time.
I did respond at the time, contrary to your claims.
Quote from: Zulu on February 18, 2008, 04:21:31 PM
The difference here is I don't doubt that Stephenite has contacts, but if they are saying TH is a well respected coach then I doubt their level of knowledge on that particular point. I'm not accusing Stephenite of making up 'sources' I'm just saying they must not know much about TH coaching history. There is a big difference IMO.
Fair point, but again you disregard the opinions of someone whose report doesnt suit you saying "they must not know much" about what they commented on.
A little patronising imo.
I'd have to back Zulu regarding the general opinion of Teddy Holland's coaching prowess within the Cork football fraternity. Although I'm living well away from Cork now I still visit often and keep in regular contact with my relations who are all active in their local clubs and the opinion of Teddy Holland wouldn't be great in Duhallow anyway although there is a bit of bias there perhaps as some people would have liked to see John Fintan Daly get an opportunity although I'm not sure whether he would be up to it either. I'd know a couple of the players both hurling and football so I have been keeping pretty close to a lot of this and that is why I stated with confidence about a week ago that despite other previous efforts the players weren't budging on the TH issue as they saw him taking the job as a total break of trust and respect.
I think Tony Leahy would be the obvious choice but he is now commited to the Barrs so whether he would or indeed could do both jobs is debatable. The sad reality is that everyone's opinion on whether Teddy is up to the job or not will be coloured somewhat by people's view on the strike in general although there is no denying he is seen as being very "controlable" from a CB perspective.
I'd have to back Zulu on the Teddy Mac issue as well the guy has done nothing from a football perspective and just because you were a good player it doesn't follow you would be a good selector or coach.
The vast majority of the Cork GAA public aren't that interested what happens with the football team, that is reality as long as the hurlers are back on the road again and that is why the hurlers supporting the strike was so vital as left to their own devices the footballers would have been easy pickings for the County Board.
To be honest Teddy Holland hasn't done himself any favours, first in taking a job when about 5 other candidates had refused to oppose the feelings of the players and now refusing to resign despite the recommednation of Kieran Mulvey.
Not a whole lot no, just cause a guy was a talented player doesn't make him a good coach. If Teddy had spent the past 15 years or so coaching football at all levels I'd be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. As far as I'm concerned an individuals coaching career is more important than his playing career when deciding if he'd make a good IC coach. What's your opinion of Tony Leahy and do you think he can do the job at the moment OM?
QuoteWell Zulu, now you are telling porky pies.
What I said back then was that you cant come out with "I know a fella who says this" and expect everybody to accept this without skepticism, given that the reports conveniently back up your argument.
I wasnt accusing you of telling lies, I have no idea if you made this up or not.
I didnt apologise as I didnt accuse you of lying, you even accepted this at the time.
I did respond at the time, contrary to your claims.
You responded to my first retort not my second and by suggesting that I might be inventing characters to support my argument is that different from suggesting I'm lying about the extent of my contacts to support my argument?
QuoteFair point, but again you disregard the opinions of someone whose report doesnt suit you saying "they must not know much" about what they commented on.
A little patronising imo
Not at all, I just know that the people I have spoken to know what they are talking about on this particular issue. And many of them don't know each other so there is no possibility of them all 'holding the party line' so to speak. If you had knowledge of a coach in Dublin and posted on here that he was poor and that others (fellas who would know) you had spoken to supported your opinion, I'd take that at face value. Moreover if I posted that I heard he was a good coach do you think you would be patronising if you suggested my sources might not be well informed on this issue because you knew yours to be very well informed and they held a very different opinion?
Quote from: Zulu on February 18, 2008, 05:05:27 PM
You responded to my first retort not my second and by suggesting that I might be inventing characters to support my argument is that different from suggesting I'm lying about the extent of my contacts to support my argument?
I didnt suggest you were inventing anything, just pointed out that unless you back it up, some people may be skeptical, not me of course ;)
Quote from: Zulu on February 18, 2008, 05:05:27 PM
Not at all, I just know that the people I have spoken to know what they are talking about on this particular issue. And many of them don't know each other so there is no possibility of them all 'holding the party line' so to speak. If you had knowledge of a coach in Dublin and posted on here that he was poor and that others (fellas who would know) you had spoken to supported your opinion, I'd take that at face value. Moreover if I posted that I heard he was a good coach do you think you would be patronising if you suggested my sources might not be well informed on this issue because you knew yours to be very well informed and they held a very different opinion?
Ok Zulu, I've no intentions of getting into a bickering match on here, all I'm saying is you know people who say one thing, Stephenite knows guys who say the opposite. I dont know either of you so who do I beleive?
To be safe I would generally disregard both reports and concentrate on what I know to be facts.
I think thats a fair enough stance to take.
Alright HHNB, you can make up your own mind on who's posting is closest to the facts, and we'll leave it at that.
Zulu - I don't know enough about him to comment - what is his record ?
The big question is now this - will the best candidates out there be prepared to take the job on consdiering all that has gone on before ???
QuoteZulu - I don't know enough about him to comment - what is his record ?
He was coach of the Cork U21's for the last few years and is currently coach to the Barrs, I've also heard he is involved with CIT.
QuoteThe big question is now this - will the best candidates out there be prepared to take the job on consdiering all that has gone on before
I think that this could be the ideal year for a strong candidate to take it over. Before the strike,the only improvement after last year would have been to win the AI, now if Cork have a bad year it is the players who will get the flak.
Quote from: Zulu on February 18, 2008, 05:35:12 PM
Alright HHNB, you can make up your own mind on who's posting is closest to the facts, and we'll leave it at that.
I wont be making up my mind as I cant be sure who is telling the truth, I'd prefer to keep an open mind more so.
Otherwise, agreed.
if Cork have a bad year it is the players who will get the flak.
Do you think the players WILL get flak ? Or would they be amazed if they were criticised ?
The pressure's on big time now, so I'd expect them to respond. Conterary to the opinion of some people I think Cork have a great chance of winning an AI in the next 2-3 years. They really have some good footballers and with the right man and a more attacking playing style they could go really close. As for their hurlers they'll be there or thereabouts every year for the next few years.
I actually beleive this 2 game delay will be beneficial to Cork. I presume the Dublin and Meath games will be close to the end of the league season.
So it would be two of the tougher games in the league (according to the bookies anyway!) closer to championship time.
It wont stand for them in the league as the lack of warm up competitions wont have helped, but they have plenty of time to be ready for a lash at both championships.
As to whether they can win Sam, I reckon they are one of 4 or five who could possibly do it should Kerry slip up.
Would Cork have won the double in 1990, if Teddy McCarthy was not let within 20 miles of a Cork football team?. People outside Cork can not understand the bitterness of some Cork posters to such a great player. There is hardly a player on the present Cork football team fit to lace his boots. Teddy McCarthy would be revered in any other county.
Posted by: Onlooker
Insert Quote
Would Cork have won the double in 1990, if Teddy McCarthy was not let within 20 miles of a Cork football team?. People outside Cork can not understand the bitterness of some Cork posters to such a great player. There is hardly a player on the present Cork football team fit to lace his boots. Teddy McCarthy would be revered in any other county.
To be honest, this is what I was thinking myself - it really saddens me to hear these disparaging remarks about one of Cork's best ever dual players. But after, this debacle, nothing surprises me anymore.
We are talking about him as an IC coach, yes he was a great player in both codes but he has done nothing to suggest he is a great football coach or selector. Elvis was a brilliant singer but a poor actor by your logic being a great in one sphere makes you immune to criticism in another, even if it is justified.
He is questioning my sources as they appear to be in direct conflict with his (and have been throughout this thread!!) I can only put that down to my sources being firmly against the players strike and the undermining of what they see as the democratic decision that was taken
For what it's worth (he's gone now so his skills, or lack of as a coach are a moot point at this stage really) one of the guys I would be in regular contact with was heavily involved with TH during his time with Clonakility, he felt that his training regime was pretty different to anything these guys had experienced in the past and very effective, and bought with him a great knowledge of the Cork club scene that was hugely beneficial to the Clon club. He also pointed out that he felt that TH was severely undermined by a group within the club that wanted to install someone local to the job ( a small rump of malcontents was his phrase ;)), to this end they used the fact that he enlisted the help of Jack O'Connor to assist in the run up to the match with Nemo, which they lost by a point apparently after the ref played 10 odd minutes of injury time. Bringing in IC manager to assist with clubs is nothing new and something many successful clubs have used to great effect. Joe Kernan used outside Inter County help with Crossmaglen on more than one occasion, if I recall correctly but BC1 can confirm if it was Colm O'Rourke or Sean Boylan or both? Our own club used John O'Mahony on the way to winning an All Ireland club title, Teddy was a tad too progressive and forward thinking apparently.
I also took time to talk to my brothers, brother in law who was involved in the Cork senior team whilst TH was a selector, again nothing but positives about what he bought to the dressing room in terms of footballing knowledge and in particular his attention to detail when it came to discussing opponents and providing them with well thought out plans on how to counteract certain styles of play.
Throw in his AI minor title - he's no bum that much is apparent
I would hope Zulu, that these examples are sufficient enough to persuade you that whilst others may have a different opinion to you and your own contacts, they're strongly held views by certain people on the ground in Cork that feel very bitter about the handling of all this, and they lay the blame directly at the door of the players that instigated this strike I might add. TH certainly may not have been the 'best' man for the job but the attacks on his abilities are off the mark and unfair.
Zulu,whether or not you continue to doubt the veracity of my sources is of course entirely up to yourself - media reports and polls on other site seem to indicate that people in Cork are pretty polarised on this issue, I can only imagine that my contacts are at one end and yours at the other!
Holland sacked by Cork officials
Monday, 18 February 2008 20:42
Cork football manager Teddy Holland has been dismissed by Cork County Board.
Delegates voted by 89 votes to 18 for his removal, a development which brings an end a 97 day-long dispute.
The fiasco saw inter-county fixtures being unfulfilled due to a strike for the first time in the GAA's history.
The search for a new manager has already got underway, with a seven-man panel - comprising of five county board members and two current players - charged with finding the new man.
The shambles is complete !
19 February 2008
Management axed as Rebel row draws to close
By Brendan Larkin and Michael Moynihan
THE Cork County Board last night removed Teddy Holland, Diarmuid O'Donovan, Mick O'Loughlin, Liam Hodnett and Teddy McCarthy as senior football selectors and brought to an end one of the longest running sagas in the history of the GAA.
And separately it's emerged that last year's football captain Derek Kavanagh and long-serving midfielder Nicholas Murphy are set to be the players' representatives on the appointments committee to select the new manager.
The decision to remove the five-man selection committee was taken following a report from the Executive of a meeting they had with the selectors on Sunday afternoon, at which they outlined in detail to Holland and his group the implications of the binding arbitration agreement the board had entered into.
County PRO Bob Ryan said that at Sunday's meeting the selectors were very understanding of the position but were concerned at the implications of they themselves resigning.
The selectors then gave the Executive a statement of their position which they wanted read out to last night's meeting. They stated as a matter of principle they did not propose to resign as Cork senior football team management.
"We acknowledge that the county board is bound by the arbitrator's report and must implement his findings. Consequently we anticipate that the board will remove us from office, and given the present circumstances we will bear no animosity towards the board for so doing."
Following a discussion at last night's board meeting, chairman of the county board Mick Dolan proposed the following motion on behalf of the Executive:
"That this board acknowledges that the senior football team management were legally appointed in accordance with the rules of the association and they have done no wrong.
"This board expresses sadness at the hurt caused to the team management and their families, and very especially in the case of coach Ted Holland by the manner in which he had been treated publicly.
"Their removal from office which I now propose is solely based on the arbitrator's report to break the impasse and no way reflects on their ability, service and integrity, and this board records its deep appreciation of the manner in which they have approached this matter."
The motion was seconded by the vice chairman of the board, Jerry O'Sullivan, and was passed by 89 votes to 18.
Asked when the Executive hopes to have a new manager appointed, Ryan said hopefully in the coming days.
He added that it is hoped that the team will play national hurling and football league games this coming weekend, but that would depend on tonight's meeting of the Central Competitions Control Committee (CCCC).
Elsewhere GAA President Nickey Brennan welcomed the resolution of the long-running dispute.
"It's something we could have done without, something we wanted to resolve," he said.
"I want to kill the notion that if this had happened in another county we wouldn't have put the same effort into it.
Quote from: stephenite on February 19, 2008, 12:25:44 AM
19 February 2008
Management axed as Rebel row draws to close
"I want to kill the notion that if this had happened in another county we wouldn't have put the same effort into it.
What colour is the sky in your world, Nicky? ::)
Yeah. As a wise man once said.
'Bollix'.
THe matter may be over but it is hardly resolved and will have repersussions for years to come. Civil Wars always do!
I'm sure everybody in the association agrees with the President that just as much effort would have been made regardless of the county involved - YE - RIGHT!
Has Nickey Brennan been the worst and most ineffective President in the last 30 years? I certainly think so.
Nicky hasn't exactly covered himself or his office in glory - but then after all, he sat the phone down on Gerard Mc Carthy.
Quote from: orangeman on February 19, 2008, 10:10:34 AM
Nicky hasn't exactly covered himself or his office in glory - but then after all, he sat the phone down on Gerard Mc Carthy.
That could be the one good thing he did :D
The CCCC meeting will be interesting in light of Coylers comments along the lines of "Cork can go f*ck themselves if they think we'll play them in March."
He's 100% right.
Agreed. Meath and Dublin should decide when it suits them to play this game. If Cork dont agree, walkovers.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 19, 2008, 10:36:18 AM
Agreed. Meath and Dublin should decide when it suits them to play this game. If Cork dont agree, walkovers.
They should be fucked out the rules where clear enough last monday, why are the waters being muddied?
Quote from: Gnevin on February 19, 2008, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 19, 2008, 10:36:18 AM
Agreed. Meath and Dublin should decide when it suits them to play this game. If Cork dont agree, walkovers.
They should be fucked out the rules where clear enough last monday, why are the waters being muddied?
I agree Gnevin, but now its looking like they wont, the least Dublin and Meath can expect is to have a date to suit them.
Coyle made a comment that if the under 21 teams have a few wins, there will be no weekends between now and the league play off dates that suit them.
Shambles.
QuoteHe is questioning my sources as they appear to be in direct conflict with his (and have been throughout this thread!!) I can only put that down to my sources being firmly against the players strike and the undermining of what they see as the democratic decision that was taken
For what it's worth (he's gone now so his skills, or lack of as a coach are a moot point at this stage really) one of the guys I would be in regular contact with was heavily involved with TH during his time with Clonakility, he felt that his training regime was pretty different to anything these guys had experienced in the past and very effective, and bought with him a great knowledge of the Cork club scene that was hugely beneficial to the Clon club. He also pointed out that he felt that TH was severely undermined by a group within the club that wanted to install someone local to the job ( a small rump of malcontents was his phrase ), to this end they used the fact that he enlisted the help of Jack O'Connor to assist in the run up to the match with Nemo, which they lost by a point apparently after the ref played 10 odd minutes of injury time. Bringing in IC manager to assist with clubs is nothing new and something many successful clubs have used to great effect. Joe Kernan used outside Inter County help with Crossmaglen on more than one occasion, if I recall correctly but BC1 can confirm if it was Colm O'Rourke or Sean Boylan or both? Our own club used John O'Mahony on the way to winning an All Ireland club title, Teddy was a tad too progressive and forward thinking apparently.
I also took time to talk to my brothers, brother in law who was involved in the Cork senior team whilst TH was a selector, again nothing but positives about what he bought to the dressing room in terms of footballing knowledge and in particular his attention to detail when it came to discussing opponents and providing them with well thought out plans on how to counteract certain styles of play.
Throw in his AI minor title - he's no bum that much is apparent
I would hope Zulu, that these examples are sufficient enough to persuade you that whilst others may have a different opinion to you and your own contacts, they're strongly held views by certain people on the ground in Cork that feel very bitter about the handling of all this, and they lay the blame directly at the door of the players that instigated this strike I might add. TH certainly may not have been the 'best' man for the job but the attacks on his abilities are off the mark and unfair.
Zulu,whether or not you continue to doubt the veracity of my sources is of course entirely up to yourself - media reports and polls on other site seem to indicate that people in Cork are pretty polarised on this issue, I can only imagine that my contacts are at one end and yours at the other!
Excellent post Stephenite and I have no real issue with any of it. Maybe both our sources opinions are coloured by their views on this situation but because two of my sources came from outside Cork I felt that their opinion on TH 'sealed the deal' with respect to his coaching abilities. I do feel however, that debating his coaching abilities was reasonable and fair, we do it for all players and coaches, I don't see why Teddy should be different. However since he is now gone his coaching abilities are an irrelevance.
Now that this is at an end I must say I enjoyed discussing the issues on this site, it was by and large conducted in an exemplary manner and is a credit to the maturity and knowledge of the posters here. In truth if the protagonists down in Cork had displayed to each other the same courtesy that the posters on this board did to opposing views, it never would have got this far. Anyway once the new Cork coach is announced and the deferred league fixtures are decided upon we'll no doubt start debating again, so enjoy the peace lads.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 19, 2008, 10:59:04 AM
Quote from: Gnevin on February 19, 2008, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 19, 2008, 10:36:18 AM
Agreed. Meath and Dublin should decide when it suits them to play this game. If Cork dont agree, walkovers.
They should be fucked out the rules where clear enough last monday, why are the waters being muddied?
I agree Gnevin, but now its looking like they wont, the least Dublin and Meath can expect is to have a date to suit them.
Roscommon play Cork the next day - assume they will show up for that one. However if Meath and Dublin or either one of them decide not to play Cork then what is the point of the Ros/Cork game or indeed any of Cork's remaining games? Obviously the GAA need to decide on this soon - are Cork in or out..
I would imagine worst case senario, Cork play their remaining league games and lose the points for fixtures that haven't fulfilled. Hopefully points difference involving any of the teams involved doesn't rare its ugly head at the end of the league...
I'd imagine they'll forfeit the points against Dublin and Meath in the football, and Kilkenny and Waterford in the hurling.
Then any ties will be settled, if they have to be, with a playoff.
Seems RTE news has announced that Conor Counihan has got the job.
Seems RTE news has announced that Conor Counihan has got the job.
Would he be to your pleasing Zulu ?
What has he been doing since 1990 ?
Is that the lad that was squeezing Jack O'shea by the nuts? There'll be no strike action with him :D
Not only that, but Siobhán Madigan on the sports news at the end of the News at One also mentioned in passing that Counihan will announce "his own selectors" this week. I presume this is a mistake in that she didn't mean he would be selecting the selectors. I don't remember the clubs voting to reverse the procedure for appointing selectors that they put in place (twice) some weeks ago.
[Edit] Maybe Conor made threatening gestures towards F. Murphy's gonads and achieved in the mere bunching of fingers in an upturned hand what sixty players couldn't achieve in a three- month strike.
QuoteWould he be to your pleasing Zulu ?
What has he been doing since 1990 ?
I think he'll be a popular choice Leeside, I wouldn't have a detailed knowledge of his coaching history but he was definately involved with Aghada and I'm sure he was 'backs coach' during Larry Tompkins reign as Cork manager. To the best of my knowledge he has been heavily involved in coaching since hanging up his boots and is highly regarded across Cork.
Quote from: Hardy on February 19, 2008, 01:48:51 PM
Not only that, but Siobhán Madigan on the sports news at the end of the News at One also mentioned in passing that Counihan will announce "his own selectors" this week. I presume this is a mistake
I'm almost certain that it was part of the mediation that the new manager will appoint his own selectors
I didn't think so and I presume the Co. Board would have to vote to reverse their earlier decision if that was the case. I didn't hear anything about such a vote. Can anyone clarify?
QuoteI'm almost certain that it was part of the mediation that the new manager will appoint his own selectors
IF thats the case, what did the county board get out of the arbitrators decision? Seems like its everything that the footballers wanted
Quote from: liihb on February 19, 2008, 04:05:06 PM
QuoteI'm almost certain that it was part of the mediation that the new manager will appoint his own selectors
IF thats the case, what did the county board get out of the arbitrators decision? Seems like its everything that the footballers wanted
Correct. And Hardy is correct also. If this is the case it is a KO for the Footballers/Hurlers. I thought the deal was that the management resign (or get sacked), the 2 players join the 7 man selection panel and the Players 'never strike again'.
There was no mention of the process to appoint selectors, apart from the selection panel and the County Board's earlier offer to 'revisit the issue' in September.
I'd imagine Counihan will be appointed by the 7 man selection committee, and will give his input about selectors, just as Holland claims he did. Then the 7 man committee will appoint the selectors, as per the procedure agreed in the vote taken.
Quote
IF thats the case, what did the county board get out of the arbitrators decision? Seems like its everything that the footballers wanted
Think thats the case or as Tom Humphries put it on Monday
In Cork at the end of the week a different exercising of the same player-power phenomenon had a more positive outcome. Apart from having to give a basically meaningless commitment not to strike again so long as the county board are good boys, the players won everything and the county board won nothing except a fig leaf to cover their embarrassment at having to dynamite Teddy Holland out of his position.
In Cork when Kieran Mulvey's arbitration came through, the county board were essentially routed. That doesn't have to be the end for certain high-profile figures. Not being able to work within the brave new world might just be the end though. Mulvey has bequeathed to Cork one last chance and Cork in turn have offered us a picture of the future of player relations, which have moved on from the old employer/employee model.
What has happened in Cork will have profound implications for the way teams are managed and run. What has happened in Abbotstown will have a similar impact on everything to do with the flagship side of Irish soccer. We love our flags and our Tricolours and our ole ole ole, we love our big sunny days by the banks of our own lovely Lee, but the realpolitik behind the big shows changed last week forever.
Quote from: Declan on February 19, 2008, 04:26:03 PM
Quote
IF thats the case, what did the county board get out of the arbitrators decision? Seems like its everything that the footballers wanted
Think thats the case or as Tom Humphries put it on Monday
In Cork at the end of the week a different exercising of the same player-power phenomenon had a more positive outcome. Apart from having to give a basically meaningless commitment not to strike again so long as the county board are good boys, the players won everything and the county board won nothing except a fig leaf to cover their embarrassment at having to dynamite Teddy Holland out of his position.
In Cork when Kieran Mulvey's arbitration came through, the county board were essentially routed. That doesn't have to be the end for certain high-profile figures. Not being able to work within the brave new world might just be the end though. Mulvey has bequeathed to Cork one last chance and Cork in turn have offered us a picture of the future of player relations, which have moved on from the old employer/employee model.
What has happened in Cork will have profound implications for the way teams are managed and run. What has happened in Abbotstown will have a similar impact on everything to do with the flagship side of Irish soccer. We love our flags and our Tricolours and our ole ole ole, we love our big sunny days by the banks of our own lovely Lee, but the realpolitik behind the big shows changed last week forever.
Let's see exactly who appoints the selectors before we start believing this stuff. Tom Humphries is getting more and more into writing these highly colourful and florid tomes, but his in-depth research is starting to suffer. It was never mentioned in any of the Mulvey stuff that I read that the manager would appoint his selectors, and that was the key, original issue.
If the players have won that battle, then I would say it's a 100% win for them, but I suspect they've won a phantom battle in a phoney war, and Frank Murphy and Co will be like clever bank robber that doesn't splash the cash, but sits back and smiles.
What did you all amke of Colm O'Rourke's call in Sundays Indo for Frank Murphy to resign ?? Was that not a bit strange for someone like O'Rourke to be getting involved in ?? I have been puting it through my mind and can't come up with any other reason other than a personal grievance with FM in some football related matter down the years ? It was such a strange call given that the strike was effectively over on last Thursday / Friday. ??? ???
Quote from: orangeman on February 19, 2008, 04:36:29 PM
What did you all amke of Colm O'Rourke's call in Sundays Indo for Frank Murphy to resign ?? Was that not a bit strange for someone like O'Rourke to be getting involved in ?? I have been puting it through my mind and can't come up with any other reason other than a personal grievance with FM in some football related matter down the years ? It was such a strange call given that the strike was effectively over on last Thursday / Friday. ??? ???
I think Colm O'Rourke (I didn't read the Indo mind you, I bought the Beano instead :D) was probably articulating the thoughts of the players down in Cork and what they really want. I'm quite convinced that this latest issue is just a symptom of a much greater problem down there, and that is the undue influence that a few people have down there.
Some of the stuff I read on this thread, from posters I have no reason to doubt, is shocking. Never mind the subject matter of the decision, if club delegates are deliberately voting against their clubs wishes, simply on the say so of one man, then there needs to be a complete clean sweep down there, not just of Frank Murphy.
if club delegates are deliberately voting against their clubs wishes, simply on the say so of one man, then there needs to be a complete clean sweep down there, not just of Frank Murphy.
AZ - I think we both understand that this IS NOT
happening - FM might have influence but he isn't GOD almighty. No way. If he is like most other full time GAA CB people, I'd say he is viewed with a degree of suspicion and I don't think for one minute that people vote for him regardless of the issue.
AZ - are you trying to say that Colm O'Rourke has simply taken the side of the players on this issue - I always regarded him as a bit of a traditionalist. But I was surprised to read this.
Quote from: orangeman on February 19, 2008, 04:42:30 PM
if club delegates are deliberately voting against their clubs wishes, simply on the say so of one man, then there needs to be a complete clean sweep down there, not just of Frank Murphy.
AZ - I think we both understand that this IS NOT
happening - FM might have influence but he isn't GOD almighty. No way. If he is like most other full time GAA CB people, I'd say he is viewed with a degree of suspicion and I don't think for one minute that people vote for him regardless of the issue.
That's what I would have thought before this start, hence my championing of the democratic decision. However, I have no reason to disbelieve those stories, and if they are true, then it's disgraceful carry on.
Quote from: orangeman on February 19, 2008, 04:44:16 PM
AZ - are you trying to say that Colm O'Rourke has simply taken the side of the players on this issue - I always regarded him as a bit of a traditionalist. But I was surprised to read this.
I'd say Colm O'Rourke is taking the side of the 'anti-Murphyites' in the first skirmishes of the impending Civil War down there. I don't think he'd back the players decision to strike about an individual CB decision, but I believe he knows exactly what sort of clout FM has in Cork, and believes it to be a bad thing.
Well there's nothing like nailing your colours to the mast ! Or is it just a case of him stirring the brown stuff at Cork's expense ?? :D
O'Rourke has always been sympathetic to the GPA-type position. I'm not saying he was pro-strike or pro the previous threatened strike by the GPA - I don't know because I don't buy the Indo. But for years he's always hinted that he'd see nothing wrong with pay for play. He's often on about the amount of money swirling about in he GAA and the players seeing none of it.
QuoteAZ - I think we both understand that this IS NOT
happening - FM might have influence but he isn't GOD almighty. No way. If he is like most other full time GAA CB people, I'd say he is viewed with a degree of suspicion and I don't think for one minute that people vote for him regardless of the issue.
OM you are wrong, it really is like that. FM is one of the 5(at least) most powerful people in the GAA. He is unlike most other county secretaries and is hugely powerful in his own fifedom of Cork. I know of no other county secretary who was on the sideline in both football and hurling influencing on field selections and changes. Whatever about the 'players strike' issue, ask anyone in Cork about FM's power and influence and you'll get the same answer. It is one thing every Cork GAA man will agree on.
He might have influence - no doubt about that - but he is NOT single handedly picking the team, making switches, putting on subs and running Cork GAA and telling Cork delgates to vote whateve way he tells them too - that is too far fetched for me !
Why was there not a unanimous vote last night to sack TH - It was 83 to 19 or something like that - how come 19 voted against "him" !
G.A.A. PRESS RELEASE
19 February 2008
C.C.C.C. Decide on Cork Leagues
The C.C.C.C. of the GAA stated this evening that they had taken the decision that Cork should forfeit the Allianz National League points to the opponents that they failed to meet in the first two rounds of the Leagues, Meath and Dublin in football and Kilkenny and Waterford in hurling. Cork have also been fined €400 per game unfulfilled. The remaining games in the National Leagues will take place as scheduled.
Good. I think that's fair enough.
Fair enough. No problems there - so Meath and Dublin get the points ?
QuoteHe might have influence - no doubt about that - but he is NOT single handedly picking the team, making switches, putting on subs and running Cork GAA and telling Cork delgates to vote whateve way he tells them too - that is too far fetched for me !
Why was there not a unanimous vote last night to sack TH - It was 83 to 19 or something like that - how come 19 voted against "him" !
Not sure anyone suggested that he has complete control but you might notice that the delegates overwhelmingly voted the way the CB recommended in all 3 votes, even though the third one was the opposite to the way they had previously voted. FM wields massive influence as county sec. so it is not surprising that delegates will try to keep on the right side of him. However at this stage OM it appears that regardless of what I or anyone else says you're convinced he is just another CB man like hundreds of others around the country. You
are wrong but I can't be bothered trying to convince you anymore, like I say anyone with a decent knowledge of Cork GAA will back me up on this one. The man wields massive influence in Cork that simply isn't up for debate.
Balls. They should have f*cked them out. This is going to get messy if its tight towards the end of the league.
So he SINGLE HANDEDLY runs Cork GAA from start to finish and nobody else gets a look in ?
Ok one last time OM, "SINGLE HANDEDLY" does not equal "massive influence."
Now that Teddy Holland has become a modern day Michael Collins....f*cked over by his own. Conor Counihan seems to be the name floating around langerland for the new manager, Counihan was a fair to decent Centre back during the last great run by Cork Footballers back in 1990, is it really that long ago.
Counihan is foundly remembered in Kerry for grabbing Jack O'Shea by the family jewels, it is great to see Cork up holding a long tradition of spiteful hoors being installed as county managers following the Larry and Billy great shows over recent years.
Lets hope Counihan brings as much entertainment and joy to the Cork role ;)
We wish him well.
Quote from: laoisgaa on February 19, 2008, 05:20:16 PM
G.A.A. PRESS RELEASE
19 February 2008
C.C.C.C. Decide on Cork Leagues
The C.C.C.C. of the GAA stated this evening that they had taken the decision that Cork should forfeit the Allianz National League points to the opponents that they failed to meet in the first two rounds of the Leagues, Meath and Dublin in football and Kilkenny and Waterford in hurling. Cork have also been fined €400 per game unfulfilled. The remaining games in the National Leagues will take place as scheduled.
a joke. Sure clubs in Sligo are being fined more for failing to field!
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 19, 2008, 05:29:03 PM
Good. I think that's fair enough.
Not very fair to Ros or Cavan/Westmeath/Armagh/Monaghan. >:(
As a Dub I am glad of the 2 points but can see the unfairness of it to the other counties (bar Meath).Really think these clowns should have been turfed out AS PER THE RULES.
A seriously bad precedent has been set here imo and the consequences will be felt in the future as some GAA units will somehow feel that they are bigger than the games and the GAA.
If div 2 gets tight (as I expect it will) and Cork take points (as they may) I expect a trip to the High Court by aggrieved counties as the attraction of div 1 is massive. Once their own rules were ignored the GAA are going to lose this one imo.
Surely the GAA should have bit the bullet earlier (and hasten the settlement in the process) by telling Cork before the Meath game that failure to play meant a walkover full stop.
They kept on "we'll give ye another few days;another deadline now absolutely the last chance; now the final chance......"
As for Dublin and Meath - hopefully when they meet they will bring the GAA into disrepute and both get relegated. :D
That decision is a joke ...
Cork should have negative points - similar to Leeds Football Club
Feck it lets all go on Strike !!!!
The decision sets a bad example to other counties
This decision is very unfair to the clubs who have yet to play Cork. They should have been banned from the rest of the league and demoted - now Dublin & Meath both have a two point advantage they have not earned.
Quote from: zoyler on February 19, 2008, 09:30:14 PM
This decision is very unfair to the clubs who have yet to play Cork.
???
I was listening to Counihan on talking with Des Cahill - he came across very well for a man just into the job.
I was listening to him on Newstalk last night in the car. He was very cagey, but he definitely made it sound (intentionally or otherwise) that he would be appointing his own selectors.
Does ANYONE know what the story is here? Zulu, BC1, PullHard, do ye know what the exact outcome in relation to that was?
Kilkenny has offered Cork a refixture. Fair play.
He's appointing his own selectors all right. Tere's talk of an "official ratification" from FM in a face saving exercise but i understand he has a free hand with his selectors
Counihan told County Board he wasn't taking the job unless he appointed his own selectors - fair play to him. Given what he has done with Aghada he should be successful and I expect him to shake things up a bit in terms of the panel - expect to see a few less Nemo men on the panel.
Fair play to Cody offering the refixture, say what you like about the Cats (I'm not their biggest fan for obvious reasons!) but they are true hurling people and just want to play the game. Of course they are delighted to have Cork back as beating Cork on the way to a three in a row and over taking Cork at the top of the roll of honour is every Kilkenny man's dream!
For the first time in weeks this page has fallen off the front page - so here goes - it's back there again !
So did the CCB vote to change the selectors are picked by the CB rule or is this a other case of the GAA ignoring its own rules when its suits?
I can't find an answer to that question either, Gnevin. Does anyone know?
There wasn't any vote that I'm aware of, it seems that Counihan was allowed to pick his own men and that it was a precondition he set before accepting the job.
What about the decision to do it the other way, then. Since when do decisions decided by vote get overturned without a vote? Or do Kieran Mulvey's pronouncements supersede GAA procedures?
Democracy is just a big word when used in GAA circles Hardy, and it is one of the reasons I put little stock in the first two votes down in Cork. The role of delegates in the GAA needs to be looked at and voting procedures, raising motions etc. needs to be simplified.
Quote from: Zulu on February 22, 2008, 05:17:38 PM
Democracy is just a big word when used in GAA circles.
Jaysus Zulu, I'm no expert on Cork, but it seems to be working fairly well elsewhere.
Thats a bit of a slur to put on the entire organisation based purely in whats going on in Cork.
To be honest HHNB I think most votes taken in the GAA aren't democratic is the strictest sense. I think the Cork situation has raised some questions about how the GAA goes about it's business at a local level. It is not just in Cork that there are issues but in most counties, look at Roscommon and Westmeath and their financial problems and I'm sure I remember more than one controversy with John Bailey in Dublin. The point I'm making is that most counties are actually run by a small rump of individuals rather than by the clubs. If those individuals are good men doing right by the GAA within their county then we have no problems but if they become self serving egotists (Cork) or financially irresponsible (Ross and WM) then questions are asked. The biggest villains in the GAA aren't the IC players or manager and it isn't the CB, it is the clubs and the much lauded (around here anyway) grassroots GAA man, that's me and you by the way. It is we who should be held up for criticism and to paraphrase the great Homer Simpson we are the cause of and solution to all of the GAA's problems.
Quote from: Zulu on February 22, 2008, 05:55:24 PM
, look at Roscommon and Westmeath and their financial problems ........) or financially irresponsible (Ross and WM)
Ah Jasus Zulu lave us out of it .
Most club delegates to Co Board couldnt care less about Co teams affairs - they usually leave that to the Executive and will usually vote for whatever the Executive want.
I personally havent had any instances where I thought democracy in the county of my club, or on a national level failed.
If I did I would raise it with my club.
But as Rossfan said, the intercounty issues arent really that important to most club men who have enough to worry about on a local level.
Roscommon reopen Cork player strike row
Sunday, 16 March 2008 15:07
The fall-out from Cork's fractious player strike took another twist today with the news that Roscommon county board have appeal the Rebel County's participation in the Allianz National Football League.
The Competitions Control Committee (CCC) recently announced that Cork would forfeit their league points after failing to fulfil the opening fixtures against Meath and Dublin.
However, Roscommon were incensed that they, and others in Division Two, were forced to play Cork.
Roscommon lost their clash a fortnight ago.
Roscommon county board secretary Seamus Maher today confirmed that they are set to pursue the matter.
'We had a county board meeting during the week, and delegates expressed real anger regarding the outcome of the Cork dispute,' said Maher.
'We were mandated by delegates to pursue the matter. We have since sought clarification from the CCC of their decision regarding the ruling of the dispute, and based on their reply we believe the rules were not properly applied.
'Our action is not in any way against Cork but against the system and procedures. We have appealed on the basis that Rules 136 and 116 were not properly applied in this instance.'
The appeal will now be heard by another Croke Park committee, likely to be the Central Appeals Committee (CAC), and it could result in the final standings in Division Two remaining in doubt even after all the regulation games have taken place.
Roscommon manager John Maughan has already been strongly critical of the scenario whereby Meath and Dublin get two points each without having to play against Cork.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2008/0316/cork.html
The examiner today has this. There seems to be two issues (1) The correct application of the rules and (2) The fairness of rewarding Dublin and Meath because of the Cork no-shows. There's mileage in this yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16 March 2008
Roscommon appeal against Cork's NFL participation
By Liam Horan
THE fallout from Cork's fractious player strike took another twist yesterday with news that the Roscommon County Board have appealed against the Rebel County's participation in the NFL.
The Central Competitions Control Committee (CCCC) recently announced that Cork would forfeit their league points after failing to fulfil the opening fixtures against Meath and Dublin. However, Roscommon were incensed that they — and others in Division Two — were forced to play Cork. Roscommon lost their clash a fortnight ago.
Roscommon County Board secretary Seamus Maher yesterday confirmed that they are to pursue the matter. "We had a county board meeting during the week, and delegates expressed real anger regarding the outcome of the Cork dispute," said Maher.
"We were mandated by delegates to pursue the matter. We have since sought clarification from the CCCC of their decision regarding the ruling of the dispute, and based on their reply we believe the rules were not properly applied.
"Our action is not in any way against Cork but against the system and procedures. We have appealed on the basis that Rules 136 and 116 were not properly applied in this instance."
The appeal will now be heard by another Croke Park committee – likely to be the Central Appeals Committee (CAC) – and it could result in the final standings in Division Two remaining in doubt even after all the regulation games have taken place.
Roscommon manager John Maughan has already been strongly critical of the scenario whereby Meath and Dublin get two points each without having to play against Cork.
Jasus our Co Board should be more concerned with things closer to home after yesterdays debacle.
We should be hiding in embarassment :-[not giving out about the Langers.
As for Maughtan - don't get me started on that ...... >:(
We should be hiding in embarassment not giving out about the Langers
I thought that Muaghan had made major improvements this year - he was in one of the papers at the weekend saying that he thought he had turned the corner with this team - obviously this was a bit of a set back but he should do ok in the long term ??
John Maughtan will NEVER do well with Ros because he has no idea how to pick a panel,no idea how to pick a team,no idea how to develop young players ,no tactical know how, never (allegedly) attended a club game in Ros, seems to think players exist to train like ludrámans in every way except in football practice.
John likes the sound of his own voice,likes to appear in front of every camera and mike that crosses the Shannon, wont talk to the local media but talks to just about every other media outlet in Ireland.
I will end the diatribe by saying I hope the 36 delegates who last August voted for Maughtan to remain as Manager can look themselves in the mirror.
It was quite obvious last July that this man's time was up in our fair County yet he's still here.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Maughans training techniques are past their sell by dates,
i heard Rumours of him running them into the ground with long distance runs in shit conditions at the start of the year.
No inter county teams do this type of training anymore,Its all Speed Endurance,stuff with players running no further than 75-80 metres at any time.
who would be your favourite to replace Him Rossfan
Fergal O Donnel?
"I'd love it" if he did but I dont think he would be in a position to - he has 2 young kids under 5 and I doubt he'd have the time. One thing about Fergie is he'd give it everything or else not take it.
Maybe if Mixer Ryan makes a success of the U21s - if their confidence isnt fecked with 12 of them on the Senior panel - he might be a shoe in in the Autumn.
Otherwise there's Gary Wynne the Minor team manager if we are to stay within the County which seems to be the favoured choice among many.
If we go outside - I presume the everlasting Micky Moran will always be interested and maybe Dessie Dolan or Tomás O Flatharta might be available by then.
Of course Ballaghadereen Co Roscommon resident John O'Mahony might swap ;D
Two things:
Firstly, Cork should have been immediately relegated from Div 2 after missing 2 matches. Their remaining games could/should have still be played but with no impact on the Division 2 table.
Secondly, questioning the voting procedures and democracy of the GAA is ridiculous. Obviously someone who doesn't go to meetings or take an interest in the running of the organisation might think that way but if you decide to stay away from "that stuff" its the same as not voting - in my eyes you forfeit the right to complain.
Wexford to appeal
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=91468
Wexford fuming over handling of Cork crisis
19 March 2008
Wexford are to lodge an appeal with the Central Appeals Committee over the decision to award both Kilkenny and Waterford NHL points after Cork failed to fulfil both games due to the players' strike in the county.
The Model County are incensed that they have to face the Rebels on Sunday in Pairc Ui Chaoimh to earn points, while Kilkenny and Waterford were awarded full points without playing them. Roscommon are also appealing the decision to award Meath and Dublin the points after they were given walkovers by Cork in the NFL.
"It's unfair on the counties who have to play Cork. The decision taken by the CCCC is unconstitutional, for Cork should have been deducted four points instead. Instead, they were handed a paltry fine," said Wexford chairman Ger Doyle.
"Our action will be against the system that's been adopted, it's not against Cork," he added.
Wexford are currently second from bottom in Division 1A on scoring difference with three points - the same as Dublin who have a superior scoring difference - while bottom-placed Antrim are already relegated.
What difference will this make , Dublin and Wexford both played Cork and lost , or will having their lose against Cork removed make their point difference better than Dublin's?
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 20, 2008, 01:02:30 PM
Two things:
Firstly, Cork should have been immediately relegated from Div 2 after missing 2 matches. Their remaining games could/should have still be played but with no impact on the Division 2 table.
I'm presuming that you mean, "according to the rules" (which I'm going to dispute), rather than "according to your own opinion" (which of course is valid).
I think there is a rule somewhere that states that if you give two walkovers, then you are relegated.
The "problem" in this case (in the football anyway) is that I believe Cork didnt give two walkovers. They only gave one - to Dublin. (Rightly or wrongly) The Meath match was postponed by the GAA prior to the need to give a walkover, so therefore it should be treated like any other postponment. Cork obviously didnt dispute the awarding of the points to Meath - but if they did, they may have a case. Hence I think Ros will lose their appeal (if I have the facts right).
QuoteWhat difference will this make , Dublin and Wexford both played Cork and lost , or will having their lose against Cork removed make their point difference better than Dublin's?
Not sure about the technical merits of Wexford's case, but I believe the reason for the appeal is that if they win it'll be Cork rather than Wexford who get relegated along with Antrim. The comments from Wexford about it being an appeal against the system rather than against Cork is frankly bullshít.
Hound - after reading what you posted there I would say you are correct and I would now expect the Roscommon case to fail. Good clarification.
I thought this story wouldn't go away too handy !
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/wexford-chairman-accuses-gaa-of-making-up-rules-as-they-go-along-1327336.html
Wexford chairman accuses GAA of 'making up rules as they go along'
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What are these?
By Colm Keys
Wednesday March 26 2008
A leading Wexford official has accused the GAA's Central Competition Controls Committee of 'making the rules up as they go along'.
In response to the decision to relegate Wexford because they have an inferior points difference to Dublin (-10) after finishing on the same points in Div 1A, chairman Ger Doyle said he can no longer 'fathom what's going in the GAA'.
And in a separate verbal broadside, Wexford manager John Meyler suggested direct intervention from GAA president Nickey Brennan is in "the best interests of hurling.".
There had been strong indications that play-offs would be required in the division to decide placings, as scoring difference would not be applicable due to the original decision in February to give the points to Waterford and Kilkenny for their unplayed games with Cork. CCCC chairman Jimmy Dunne admitted as much as late as Monday.
But the CCCC yesterday decided that, under the terms of rule 116, Dublin were in fact entitled to survive without recourse to a play-off because those unplayed matches didn't directly affect them.
This has enraged Wexford who have already appealed against the decision to award Cork's opponents the points for those first and second round matches in football and hurling.
Ironically Waterford and Cork, who also finished level on six points, each must play-off to decide who finishes second and third in the group.
"I really can't fathom how one set of rules can apply for two teams at one end of the group, while a different set of rules apply at the other end," said Doyle.
"It's ridiculous. They are making this up as they go along.
"We have sought an explanation for this, we have asked what rule was applied when the points were given to Dublin's opponents.
"All we have been told in response is that it is mediation and arbitration at work. We're being trampled to death on this issue."
Meyler accepted that Wexford had got themselves in the situation in the first place by losing to Antrim. But he believes there is a case for the GAA president to get involved as four teams face the drop to Div 2.
"As a hurling man, (Nickey) Brennan has to stand up. I met him before and he knows what's going on in Wexford and what George O'Connor is trying to do so why can this happen? We know we're not good enough to compete with Kilkenny at the moment but we're not going to give up.
"Nickey should be looking after the best interests of hurling and counties like Antrim, Wexford, Laois and Offaly. And, for God's sake, look at reality. It's not about money and Cork and Kilkenny playing at Nowlan Park.
"That's not the only thing that matters, it's about promotion of the game.
"If you want to be critical, you can look at my record but this year, we've beaten Waterford and lost to Cork by two points. You'd have to accept that Kilkenny and Wexford, in the last couple of years, have been in different worlds altogether, we drew with Dublin so the nemesis game for us was Antrim.
"That was our own fault, but in the interests of fair play and the promotion of hurling and Wexford, how can Cork and Waterford play off with Wexford and Dublin just pushed aside?
"Certainly I would be calling on Nickey Brennan as president of the GAA to look at this. The hurling world is getting smaller and needs more teams in the top table, rather than pushing them out further by isolating and ostracising them."
Waterford spokesman Joe Cleary said their game with Cork at the Gaelic Grounds was 'meaningless' and suggested it won't draw a handful of people to Limerick.
"We would have preferred to toss a coin to decide it. Does it make a difference whether it's Limerick or Tipperary we are playing? It shouldn't take another match that is going to cost us so much to decide that."
- Colm Keys
The Wexford lad is right ,they are making this up as they go.
Quote from: Gnevin on March 26, 2008, 09:31:31 AM
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/wexford-chairman-accuses-gaa-of-making-up-rules-as-they-go-along-1327336.html
"That was our own fault, but in the interests of fair play and the promotion of hurling and Wexford, how can Cork and Waterford play off with Wexford and Dublin just pushed aside?
In my opinion, the Wexford lad is an idiot if he can't see the difference between the Cork-Waterford and the Wexford-Dublin situations.
However, I don't disagree with the Waterford lad saying a coin toss would be better than a playoff in their scenario - but presumably the rules don't allow for such? I'd say if both counties agreed to do a coin toss, then the GAA would not object.
I agree hound. If Wexford and Dublin have played all their games, and each played Cork, then he has absolutely no right to demand a play off in my view. I would have agreed with him had one, or even both, of them not played Cork.
We've been guilty of the same thing in the past, and I criticised it then, so I feel valid in criticising Wexford now. They should take their medicine, go down to Division 2 and regroup. Play good games against Offaly, Antrim and Laois, along with potentially tricky ties against Carlow, Kerry and whoever else is there, and get promoted.
Division 1 is a reward for being at that level today, not an entitlement because you won a few All Irelands in the past. Same applies to Offaly, Dublin, Limerick, Clare, Laois, Antrim or whoever else might consider Division 2 'beneath' them.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 26, 2008, 09:46:46 AM
I agree hound. If Wexford and Dublin have played all their games, and each played Cork, then he has absolutely no right to demand a play off in my view. I would have agreed with him had one, or even both, of them not played Cork.
We've been guilty of the same thing in the past, and I criticised it then, so I feel valid in criticising Wexford now. They should take their medicine, go down to Division 2 and regroup. Play good games against Offaly, Antrim and Laois, along with potentially tricky ties against Carlow, Kerry and whoever else is there, and get promoted.
Division 1 is a reward for being at that level today, not an entitlement because you won a few All Irelands in the past. Same applies to Offaly, Dublin, Limerick, Clare, Laois, Antrim or whoever else might consider Division 2 'beneath' them.
I agree with what yourself and hound are saying but i agree with the Wexford lad that the GAA seemed not to following the rules by keeping Cork in the league and in general with this whole Strike thing you have no idea which "rule" will be applied where .
Quote from: Gnevin on March 26, 2008, 09:55:36 AM
I agree with what yourself and hound are saying but i agree with the Wexford lad that the GAA seemed not to following the rules by keeping Cork in the league and in general with this whole Strike thing you have no idea which "rule" will be applied where .
There seems to be more doubt surrounding whether the hurling games were postponements (games should be re-played) or walkovers (two and you're out). As far as I know they were postponed by the GAA, but I'm not sure.
Personally I think the GAA would have ordered all the games to be played but for Meath proclaiming (and Dublin hinting) that they wouldnt play Cork. If the GAA had followed the rules and ordered the postponed games to be played, then not only would Cork not really be punished (there is no provision in the rules for them starting at -4) but there would have been an unholy mess if Meath refused to play and then Cork were given the points! (which I believe would have been the outcome had the GAA followed the rules).
So I think they came up with the "common sense" provision of just giving the points to Cork's opposition. Cork, in theory, could have objected to this, but I think it was a safe bet that they wouldnt bearing in mind the goodwill shown to them (rightly or wrongly) by the GAA in postponing games rather than putting Cork into the position of having to give walkovers.
Quote from: Hound on March 26, 2008, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: Gnevin on March 26, 2008, 09:55:36 AM
I agree with what yourself and hound are saying but i agree with the Wexford lad that the GAA seemed not to following the rules by keeping Cork in the league and in general with this whole Strike thing you have no idea which "rule" will be applied where .
There seems to be more doubt surrounding whether the hurling games were postponements (games should be re-played) or walkovers (two and you're out). As far as I know they were postponed by the GAA, but I'm not sure.
Personally I think the GAA would have ordered all the games to be played but for Meath proclaiming (and Dublin hinting) that they wouldnt play Cork. If the GAA had followed the rules and ordered the postponed games to be played, then not only would Cork not really be punished (there is no provision in the rules for them starting at -4) but there would have been an unholy mess if Meath refused to play and then Cork were given the points! (which I believe would have been the outcome had the GAA followed the rules).
So I think they came up with the "common sense" provision of just giving the points to Cork's opposition. Cork, in theory, could have objected to this, but I think it was a safe bet that they wouldnt bearing in mind the goodwill shown to them (rightly or wrongly) by the GAA in postponing games rather than putting Cork into the position of having to give walkovers.
I think you've nailed it on the head Hound. The GAA were faced with a situation where they 'deferred' at least one of the games in football, and therefore Cork were not eligible to be kicked out of the football league. (Not sure about the first hurling game).
When they then decided to award the points to Meath, Dublin, Waterford and Kilkenny, they were actually contradicting themselves (surprise, surprise) in that even the deferred games were deemed to be awarded to the opposition, when by rights a refixture should have been ordered for those games. Cork, at that point, could easily have appealed that ruling, and I'm sure that Frank Murphy gave it some thought before realising that for once he should bite the bullet because there was a compelling case to say they got away with it.
The GAA fell between 2 stools in trying to accomodate Cork while they sorted out the mess, but at the same time punishing them for making games be 'deferred'. It was an imperfect solution, but probably the best one because Cork would definitely have appealed if they were docked 4 points as well as the matches being awarded to the opposition because they would in effect be punished twice for the one offence.
Of course the GAA could have deemed all 4 matches unfulfilled from day 1, no deferrments or 'postponements' and relegated Cork in both codes, but there was no appetite to do that.
QuoteOf course the GAA could have deemed all 4 matches unfulfilled from day 1, no deferrments or 'postponements' and relegated Cork in both codes, but there was no appetite to do that.
It's an awful pity the appetite wasn't there to do that. There was always going to be some grief and appeals etc from other counties that were treated unfairly. I don't think Wexford have a case as they have played their 5 games, Division 2 in the football will have an interesting ending to it I'd say.