This story was carried in the Tribune yesterday but is missing from the online version, instead being replaced by a story of British soldiers dreaming up ways to shave of the Beard.
Ulster troop's websites a "bloody disgrace"...
Robert Carry writing in today's Metro Eireann (ie the Dublin edition of the paper) follows the story of some of the Bebo photos dug up on Aughavey's thread on the satirical march in Basra by members of the Irish Guards. A lot of what was displayed there went well beyond the bounds of satire.
By Robert Carry
BRITISH soldiers from Northern Ireland currently serving in Iraq have been using the internet social networking service Bebo to display a host of shocking images in which
they abuse Iraqi civilians and appear to mock the hanging of Saddam Hussein, Metro
Eireann can exclusively reveal. The soldiers are believed to belong to the 1st Battalion Irish Guards – a regiment of the British Army known for its large number of recruits from
Northern Ireland. Some of the soldiers have also posted images showing support for loyalist paramilitary terror groups and the Ku Klux Klan (KKK).
The first images came to light after a Co Antrim soldier (Soldier A) posted onto his Bebo page a number of pictures showing a 12 July Orange Order-style march involving a group of troops, held in their barracks in the southern Iraqi city of Basra.
Further examination of the soldier's Bebo page revealed that Soldier A had also posted images in support of loyalist gangs responsible for sectarian attacks – one depicting what looked to be a loyalist gunman with an Ulster flag behind him.
Among his other pictures was a soldier smiling with his head tilted inside a hangman's noose, in what resembled a re-enactment of the hanging of Saddam Hussein.
The Bebo pages of some of Soldier A's colleagues serving in the Irish Guards revealed racist, homophobic, sexist and sectarian symbols and statements, as well as images and comments abusive to Iraqi citizens.
A second soldier (Soldier B) displayed a photo of a group of Iraqi children with the caption "gimps" on his webpage, alongside a logo representing the banned loyalist terror group, the Ulster Volunteer Soldier B had another picture of what appeared to be a British soldier getting an Iraqi civilian to hold a sign saying: "I f**k sheep when I'm not busy mortaring the base".
A third Northern Ireland-born British soldier serving in Iraq (Soldier C) stated on his page that he is happiest when "drinking with the lads or when I have pulled and killing dirty ragheads". Soldier C also prominently displayed a statement which read: "It isnt Rape if you shout Suprise. its only suprise sex haha." In a list of his dislikes he stated: "gays fuckn poofs need a 9mm round to the back of the head."
One of the photos on Soldier C's page showed him sitting in full uniform, fully armed, with the caption "don't run – you'll only die tired" underneath. He also displayed a photo of a group of KKK members and further loyalist paramilitary related another alarming series of pictures which appeared to show a group of soldiers tying a distressed-looking fellow solider to a post with bright orange tape.
A fourth soldier (Soldier D) decorated his personal webpage by daubing swastikas with the Neo-Nazi slogan "Blood and Honour". In the introduction to his page he wrote: "alrite im 27 and in iraq on a 7 month tour of this beautiful country the people are lovely and would do anything for ya im just bull shittin they are a shower of c**ts."
A fifth soldier (Soldier E), who served in Northern Ireland as well as in Iraq, displayed a photo in which he posed in full uniform under a billboard of the 10 republican prisoners who died on hunger strike in 1981, which he labelled "Kill All Taigs" ('Taigs' meaning Irish Catholics). He also had various other loyalist imagery displayed.
A sixth soldier (Soldier F) had the phrase "Kill all Taigs and Arabs" displayed prominently on his page and had a photograph of a dead body, believed to be of a murdered South American gang member, among his pictures.
The UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) instructed the 1st Battalion Irish Guards regiment in Basra to conduct an immediate investigation into the scandal after Metro Eireann informed them of the content.
A spokesperson initially requested that Metro Eireann "withhold publication". Later, Lt Col Nick Richardson told Metro Eireann through the MOD press office that the
British army "has a policy of zero tolerance towards all kinds of prejudice, sectarianism, harassment and bullying and absolutely does not condone any such behaviour of any kind."
He continued: "We are aware of the comments that have been placed on this website, appropriate measures have already been taken and an investigation is underway – it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time."
Metro Eireann understands that the investigation will be headed by the military police. However, despite the fact that the MOD was informed of the material displayed on the soldiers' web pages on 18 July, at which time the organisation stated that it was to take "immediate" action, most of the shocking images and statements were still available to view four days later.
During the time it took the MOD to take action, a seventh soldier had copied the image of an armed British soldier attempting to humiliate an Iraqi civilian by getting him to have his photo taken while holding a derogatory sign, and posted it on his Bebo page.
Metro Eireann gained access to the Bebo pages of a total of 11 serving British soldiers from Northern Ireland, most of whom were linked as 'friends' on the website - just four had no such content. Sources in the British army have described the actions of the men as "appalling" and a "bloody disgrace".
Total and utter scumbags >:(
I agree.
Some of the filth you see on bebo is astounding.
So what sort of punishment can these scumbags expect, if any? will any action against these soldiers of the crown be publicised? these type of sites must take action against all the crap thats on it, there is a Panaroma programme on tonight about this type of thing
"Children's Fight Club
Videos of young teenagers being bullied and assaulted are being filmed and served up as entertainment on several hugely popular websites. Big name British companies are advertising on these sites right next to scenes of school children being battered and knocked unconscious. The programme reveals how one company worth billions of pounds refuses to hire staff to police its own website to search for and take down violent films involving children.
should be interesting
Until ISPs are held to be responsible and accountable for what they permit to be transmitted on their servers, this type of vileness will not only continue but become more widespread. Self Regulation has clearly failed, we need strong penalties to enforce decent standards. Doubtless some moron out there will decry censorship and claim freedom of speech. These Morons are so intellectually challenged they are incapable of understanding the difference between freedom and licence, so society has a duty to protect them from their own ignorance and those who are only to willing to exploit their naevity
Next they'll be claiming compo for all the stress they went through while on duty.
You think theres no normal soldiers who may be stressed when comrades are being killed around them?
These guys are scum but there are plenty of genuine guys who are in the shit/being killed.
Scumbags can be killed as well. Going by this and other articles, it's a fair guess to say that plenty of them have been killed already and probably had little plaques erected in their memory in Helmand, Basra and Lisburn.
Quote from: nifan on July 31, 2007, 09:48:37 AM
You think theres no normal soldiers who may be stressed when comrades are being killed around them?
These guys are scum but there are plenty of genuine guys who are in the shit/being killed.
Nobody is saying all of them are scum Nifan, I dont understand your point :-\
On a side note, if serving in Iraq, i have very little sympathy for the "normal" soldiers if killed.
For the obvious reasons.
well, I knew that lad flowers from derry and i have to say i always found him a decent sort, he certainly wasnt a loyalist sc**bag.
Quote from: nifan on July 31, 2007, 10:20:38 AM
well, I knew that lad flowers from derry and i have to say i always found him a decent sort, he certainly wasnt a loyalist sc**bag.
Which one was he nifan? Its just says "soldier a, b, c" etc
As the so-called 'Operation Banner' ends today after almost 38 years, little or no comfort that we didn't have the likes of bebo in the 70s/80s to see our protectors in action here.......
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 10:27:38 AM
Quote from: nifan on July 31, 2007, 10:20:38 AM
well, I knew that lad flowers from derry and i have to say i always found him a decent sort, he certainly wasnt a loyalist sc**bag.
Which one was he nifan? Its just says "soldier a, b, c" etc
none of them scumbags- the lad who was killed and brought back there
For starters these melters shoud not have the name "Irish" associated with them as they are not Irish they are British Soilders
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 09:55:30 AM
Scumbags can be killed as well. Going by this and other articles, it's a fair guess to say that plenty of them have been killed already and probably had little plaques erected in their memory in Helmand, Basra and Lisburn.
Or Shoot to Kill websites dedicated to them....
Quote from: nifan on July 31, 2007, 10:33:21 AM
none of them scumbags- the lad who was killed and brought back there
Ah right so, in fairness though, pleasant personality or not, if you go to Iraq as part of a morally evil and illegal war, Its really hard to sympathise if you get killed there.
That might sound harsh, but he wasnt there to make freinds.
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: nifan on July 31, 2007, 10:33:21 AM
none of them scumbags- the lad who was killed and brought back there
Ah right so, in fairness though, pleasant personality or not, if you go to Iraq as part of a morally evil and illegal war, Its really hard to sympathise if you get killed there.
That might sound harsh, but he wasnt there to make freinds.
unless you knew them or the family its hard to have sympathy for any soldier thats gets killed , in any conflict, its what they are paid to do, be pieces of meat/collateral damage etc. If you dont want to take the chance that you might die in a war, dont become a soldier.
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 31, 2007, 10:44:52 AM
Or Shoot to Kill websites dedicated to them....
Ha ha. Good one Chris. Tell us another, but keep it on topic, there's a good lad.
Quote from: illdecide on July 31, 2007, 10:42:54 AM
For starters these melters shoud not have the name "Irish" associated with them as they are not Irish they are British Soilders
They are undeniably Irish.
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 31, 2007, 10:44:52 AM
Or Shoot to Kill websites dedicated to them....
Ha ha. Good one Chris. Tell us another, but keep it on topic, there's a good lad.
ask him about the nazis and hitler youth
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 31, 2007, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 31, 2007, 10:44:52 AM
Or Shoot to Kill websites dedicated to them....
Ha ha. Good one Chris. Tell us another, but keep it on topic, there's a good lad.
ask him about the nazis and hitler youth
Is there an echo in here?
Between your ears Chris :D
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 10:51:38 AM
Quote from: illdecide on July 31, 2007, 10:42:54 AM
For starters these melters shoud not have the name "Irish" associated with them as they are not Irish they are British Soilders
They are undeniably Irish.
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Idiotic (and worse) comments quoted, especially the sectarian stuff.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Not weird at all, they were born in Northern Ireland, which is part of the Island of Ireland.
now how weird is it to call someone born in Ireland Irish? :-X
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Not weird at all, they were born in Northern Ireland, which is part of the Island of Ireland.
now how weird is it to call someone born in Ireland Irish? :-X
IF you called them British you'd have someone else from the unionist community telling you they were Irish ::)
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 10:51:38 AM
Quote from: illdecide on July 31, 2007, 10:42:54 AM
For starters these melters shoud not have the name "Irish" associated with them as they are not Irish they are British Soilders
They are undeniably Irish.
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Idiotic (and worse) comments quoted, especially the sectarian stuff.
That would be the soldiers your talking about ....?
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Not weird at all, they were born in Northern Ireland, which is part of the Island of Ireland.
now how weird is it to call someone born in Ireland Irish? :-X
Try to focus on the "mercenaries" bit to get my point ::)
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 31, 2007, 11:54:41 AM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 10:51:38 AM
Quote from: illdecide on July 31, 2007, 10:42:54 AM
For starters these melters shoud not have the name "Irish" associated with them as they are not Irish they are British Soilders
They are undeniably Irish.
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Idiotic (and worse) comments quoted, especially the sectarian stuff.
That would be the soldiers your talking about ....?
Yes.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 31, 2007, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Not weird at all, they were born in Northern Ireland, which is part of the Island of Ireland.
now how weird is it to call someone born in Ireland Irish? :-X
IF you called them British you'd have someone else from the unionist community telling you they were Irish ::)
The next nominee for the "Missing the Point Completely" Award is...pintsofguinness!
You ask these hoors what nationality they are and they'll tell you British not Irish, i don't care where they were born or who their Da's are if they pledge their legions to the Crown then they are British not Irish. It's that simple they wear a british uniform and fight with British guns. End of......
Just like the French and Belgians who fought for Nazis these mercenaries are Irish whether they have the intelligence to realise it out not. As such they bring shame on us all.
Quote from: illdecide on July 31, 2007, 01:16:56 PM
You ask these hoors what nationality they are and they'll tell you British not Irish...
That assumes that they actually know something... MASSIVE assumption! ;)
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 01:32:13 PM
Just like the French and Belgians who fought for Nazis these mercenaries are Irish
The Frenchmen and Belgians who fought for the Nazis were Irish? :D
Leaving aside the daft Nazi comparison - do you call Frenchmen serving in the French army, or Americans serving in the American army, 'mercenaries'?
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 12:16:52 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 31, 2007, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Not weird at all, they were born in Northern Ireland, which is part of the Island of Ireland.
now how weird is it to call someone born in Ireland Irish? :-X
IF you called them British you'd have someone else from the unionist community telling you they were Irish ::)
The next nominee for the "Missing the Point Completely" Award is...pintsofguinness!
No I think you miss the point.
You object to these thugs being called "Irish mercenaries" saying they are British and can't be mercenaries blah blah blah.
If they were called British one of you (from owc) would be on here telling us they were Irish. So some of you need to make up your minds as to which nationality you are.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 01:41:21 PM
The Frenchmen and Belgians who fought for the Nazis were Irish?
I'd hadrly have described them as French and Belgian if they were Irish now, so don't be silly.
Quote
Leaving aside the daft Nazi comparison - do you call Frenchmen serving in the French army, or Americans serving in the American army, 'mercenaries'?
Irishmen taking money to join the armed forces of any country other than Ireland are mercenaries, plain and simple. Though I my sympathies tend to lie with illdecide on this. There should be some way of stripping these murdering scumbags of their nationality.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 31, 2007, 01:56:17 PMNo I think you miss the point.
You object to these thugs being called "Irish mercenaries" saying they are British and can't be mercenaries blah blah blah.
Indeed - mercenaries serve in FOREIGN armies (or private forces). Those who are citizens of the UK are clearly not serving in a foreign army.
Quote
If they were called British one of you (from owc) would be on here telling us they were Irish. So some of you need to make up your minds as to which nationality you are.
I don't think a single person would have said about the ones from NI "No they're not British, they're Irish". Every 'OWC' (as you'd see it) poster on here that I've seen would not claim that British citizens from NI aren't British - that's the preserve of other poster on here. And indeed posters you're referring to have been very clear that you can be both British and Irish, so why they'd say someone from NI in the British army wasn't British but Irish is beyond me.
Speaking for myself, my nationality is British, and within that, I'm Northern Irish. But I recognise (as do all our political parties, and the British and Irish governments) that one can be both British and Irish.
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 01:57:54 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 01:41:21 PM
The Frenchmen and Belgians who fought for the Nazis were Irish?
I'd hadrly have described them as French and Belgian if they were Irish now, so don't be silly.
Just rying to inject some humour into proceedings...
Quote
Irishmen taking money to join the armed forces of any country other than Ireland are mercenaries, plain and simple. Though I my sympathies tend to lie with illdecide on this. There should be some way of stripping these murdering scumbags of their nationality.
Soldiers from Northern Ireland serving in the United Kingdom army are from the United Kingdom (and are not the state called Ireland). Mercenaries serve in "foreign" armies - educate yourself on the meaning of words FFS. And the nationality of soldiers from NI serving in the army is British - why on earth would they be "stripped of their nationality" for serving in the British army?? ???
Perhaps this map might clear up some of your confusion?
http://www.sitesatlas.com/Maps/Maps/512.gif
(Oh and even though NI is in the UK and not (the Republic of) Ireland, I'm perfectly relaxed about natvies of NI who hold Irish citizenship serving in the Irish army if they want to...)
MW
I object to that map. I mean, look at the spelling of Port Laoise.
استمرّ بجندي البيت البريطاني يستمرّ ببيت
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 02:20:48 PM
MW
I object to that map. I mean, look at the spelling of Port Laoise.
I trust the map, you're obviously spelling it wrong :P
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 02:21:51 PM
استمرّ بجندي البيت البريطاني يستمرّ ببيت
Good point, well made ::)
This'll be the traditional retreat into the old 'Donagh bunker' when you've been shown up then...
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 02:17:24 PM
Perhaps this map might clear up some of your confusion?
http://www.sitesatlas.com/Maps/Maps/512.gif
(Oh and even though NI is in the UK and not (the Republic of) Ireland, I'm perfectly relaxed about natvies of NI who hold Irish citizenship serving in the Irish army if they want to...)
They were mercenaries in 1798, 1916, 1921 and 2007 no matter what gloss you attempt to put on it. Traitors, mercenaries, murderers, quislings – all fitting descriptions for these unfortunates.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 02:20:48 PM
MW
I object to that map. I mean, look at the spelling of Port Laoise.
Not only that - they spell "Shithole" as "C-A-S-T-L-E-B-A-R" !
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 02:25:50 PM
This'll be the traditional retreat into the old 'Donagh bunker' when you've been shown up then...
I've been shown up nowhere MW. The British army have brought nothing but rape and death to the people Iraq, as they have in many other places throughout the world. Any Irishman that chooses to join with such scum for the sake of the Queen's shilling brings shame on the Irish Nation.
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 02:17:24 PM
Perhaps this map might clear up some of your confusion?
http://www.sitesatlas.com/Maps/Maps/512.gif
(Oh and even though NI is in the UK and not (the Republic of) Ireland, I'm perfectly relaxed about natvies of NI who hold Irish citizenship serving in the Irish army if they want to...)
They were mercenaries in 1798, 1916, 1921 and 2007 no matter what gloss you attempt to put on it. Traitors, mercenaries, murders, quislings – all fitting descriptions for these unfortunates.
There we have in a nutshell your "respect" for the British tradition in Northern Ireland. A British citizen from Northern Ireland who joins his own country's army is a "traitor, mercenary, murder[er?], quisling".
Aside from the fact this is an illogical and wierd view to take of a UNited Kingdom citizen born and brought up in the United Kingdom, it shows you're remarkably divorced from reality, have only a tenuous grasp on the meaning of certain words and hold an extreme intolerance of, lack of respoect and recognition of, and severe prejudice against, the British tradition and identity in Northern Ireland.
In fact, you're shown up as just as bad in your comments as those quoted on page one. Well done.
One more thing - this native of this part of the United Kingdom also holds citizenship of his own country and gives his allegiance to it. So you can add me to the ranks of your "traitors" along with the majority of the people of Northern Ireland.
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 02:28:50 PM
I've been shown up nowhere MW.
Execpt in your lack of understanding of the term mercenary and your prejudice against the British citizens of Northern Ireland...
Quote
The British army have brought nothing but rape and death to the people Iraq, as they have in many other places throughout the world.
Yep I'm sure you know a great deal about Iraq. About as much as you know about Kosovo or Bosnia, for example...
Quote
Any Irishman that chooses to join with such scum for the sake of the Queen's shilling brings shame on the Irish Nation.
You still don't appear to grasp that a British person joining the British army is joining his own national army :-\
Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 31, 2007, 02:41:10 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 02:37:55 PM
One more thing - this native of this part of the United Kingdom also holds citizenship of his own country and gives his allegiance to it. So you can add me to the ranks of your "traitors" along with the majority of the people of Northern Ireland.
Indians and Pakistanis can also claim citizenship. In many British peoples eyes it doesnt make them British either ;)
Erm...no they can't. Not unless they're immigrant-residents who meet the criteria of immigration and naturalisation.
Or are you talking about British citizens of British birth and Asian ethnicity ???
Either way, I fail to see your point.
Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 31, 2007, 02:49:10 PM
Maybe I am wrong, but can "Asians" not claim citizenship as they are former colonies/dependencies or whatever they are described as these days?
No - you're thinking of British subject status which up to the 1970s was available to all those from the British Commonwealth owning allegiance to the Crown. It's laregly obselete these days (though I think people from the RoI born before 1949 can still claim British subject status).
Quote
If I am wrong I stand corrected, but to me a person born in the 6 Counties is Irish. British people would not class you as one of their own, unless they needed cannon fodder in the fields of flanders ;)
I lived in England for nearly 3 years - people were perfectly accepting of of my British identity.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:02:21 PM
I lived in England for nearly 3 years - people were perfectly accepting of of my British identity.
Your English pals maybe, but Joe Soap in the street? I very much doubt it, unless my entire experience over many more years in England than yours is completely wrong. I remember unionists/loyalists who initially tried the 'British' thing to
real Britons: incredulity was the universal and invariable reaction. It mattered not a jot to them what part of Ireland we were from, north, south, east, west, we were all, to every man jack, Paddies,
without exception. Strange initially to hear the recent immigrants and hardest of loyal men from deepest east Belfast answer 'Irish', without qualification or hesitation, to the cab-driver when asked where they were from; and they'd only been there a matter of weeks!
Now, please don't tell me that was all my imagination -- I don't do such imaginings.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:02:21 PM
I lived in England for nearly 3 years - people were perfectly accepting of of my British identity.
Did you go on about being British all the time!!
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:14:25 PMStrange initially to hear the recent immigrants and hardest of loyal men from deepest east Belfast answer 'Irish', without qualification or hesitation, to the cab-driver when asked where they were from; and they'd only been there a matter of weeks!
Why would somebody answer Irish (or British or American or any other nationality) to the question where are you from? Surely you'd say Northern Ireland or Scotland or America or wherever? Or am I missing something?
MW wrote....."A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?"
Then later on the same thread wrote........."But I recognise (as do all our political parties, and the British and Irish governments) that one can be both British and Irish"
So there you go, not so weird after all ;)
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:14:25 PMStrange initially to hear the recent immigrants and hardest of loyal men from deepest east Belfast answer 'Irish', without qualification or hesitation, to the cab-driver when asked where they were from; and they'd only been there a matter of weeks!
Why would somebody answer Irish (or British or American or any other nationality) to the question where are you from? Surely you'd say Northern Ireland or Scotland or America or wherever? Or am I missing something?
You're missing something SammyG, nationality
implies the place, and like I said, they didn't qualify the place, they were happy enough to leave it simply as Ireland.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:23:04 PM
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:14:25 PMStrange initially to hear the recent immigrants and hardest of loyal men from deepest east Belfast answer 'Irish', without qualification or hesitation, to the cab-driver when asked where they were from; and they'd only been there a matter of weeks!
Why would somebody answer Irish (or British or American or any other nationality) to the question where are you from? Surely you'd say Northern Ireland or Scotland or America or wherever? Or am I missing something?
You're missing something SammyG, nationality implies the place, and like I said, they didn't qualify the place, they were happy enough to leave it simply as Ireland.
You didn't say Ireland you said Irish, totally different thing. What's wrong with somebody saying they're from Ireland, if that's where their from?
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 03:22:16 PM
MW wrote....."A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?"
Then later on the same thread wrote........."But I recognise (as do all our political parties, and the British and Irish governments) that one can be both British and Irish"
So there you go, not so weird after all ;)
As I said to you last time:
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 12:13:49 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 11:40:25 AM
A little wierd to call British citizens, from the UK, serving in the British army "Irish mercenaries" though, hmm?
Not weird at all, they were born in Northern Ireland, which is part of the Island of Ireland.
now how weird is it to call someone born in Ireland Irish? :-X
Try to focus on the "mercenaries" bit to get my point ::)
Cleary on a bike ::)
I was in London over the weekend and saw plenty of locals (always white) wearing England soccer jerseys and one or two with Union Jack shorts.
In the end, I was glad to get back home to Ireland.
I wonder now were they all OWCers on, err, holiday.
Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 31, 2007, 02:49:10 PM
Maybe I am wrong, but can "Asians" not claim citizenship as they are former colonies/dependencies or whatever they are described as these days? If I am wrong I stand corrected, but to me a person born in the 6 Counties is Irish. British people would not class you as one of their own, unless they needed cannon fodder in the fields of flanders ;)
I'd say it was the case a number of years ago - Indian peoples (not sure about pakistani's) could claim to be british and citizens I believe (I know someone will correct me if I am wrong).
But after independence etc this right was rescinded - in much the same manner that the folks in NI will experience some day in the not too distant future..
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 03:26:46 PM
I was in London over the weekend and saw plenty of locals (always white) wearing England soccer jerseys and one or two with Union Jack shorts.
In the end, I was glad to get back home to Ireland.
I wonder now were they all OWCers on, err, holiday.
Why would an OWCer (NI Football forum) be wearing an Engerlund shirt?
To prove to the locals he too was British, I guess, as MW said a wee while ago.
Because I think if they had seen him wearing an OWC jersey, they'd naturally presume he was Irish, I would imagine.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:02:21 PM
I lived in England for nearly 3 years - people were perfectly accepting of of my British identity.
Well done MW
you made me laugh out loud there
I am imagining you going around to all and sundry in your area asking them ' do you think I am british'?
I'd say they gave you whatever answer they thought you wanted to hear, but also made mental notes to steer clear of you in the future as you were undoubtedly a nutter (as I said thats the pic that you conjured up in my head - brilliant , thanks!) :D
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 03:25:06 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:23:04 PM
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:14:25 PMStrange initially to hear the recent immigrants and hardest of loyal men from deepest east Belfast answer 'Irish', without qualification or hesitation, to the cab-driver when asked where they were from; and they'd only been there a matter of weeks!
Why would somebody answer Irish (or British or American or any other nationality) to the question where are you from? Surely you'd say Northern Ireland or Scotland or America or wherever? Or am I missing something?
You're missing something SammyG, nationality implies the place, and like I said, they didn't qualify the place, they were happy enough to leave it simply as Ireland.
You didn't say Ireland you said Irish, totally different thing. What's wrong with somebody saying they're from Ireland, if that's where their from?
I know what I said FFS. It's not that unusual for someone to answer with their nationality when asked where they're from, it's quite common in fact. They
said they were 'Irish', the cabbie asked them
where they were from (don't blame me, I'm only relating it!)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:14:25 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:02:21 PM
I lived in England for nearly 3 years - people were perfectly accepting of of my British identity.
Your English pals maybe, but Joe Soap in the street? I very much doubt it, unless my entire experience over many more years in England than yours is completely wrong. I remember unionists/loyalists who initially tried the 'British' thing to real Britons: incredulity was the universal and invariable reaction. It mattered not a jot to them what part of Ireland we were from, north, south, east, west, we were all, to every man jack, Paddies, without exception. Strange initially to hear the recent immigrants and hardest of loyal men from deepest east Belfast answer 'Irish', without qualification or hesitation, to the cab-driver when asked where they were from; and they'd only been there a matter of weeks!
Now, please don't tell me that was all my imagination -- I don't do such imaginings.
My experience variously from friends, acquaintances and strangers was something like this - most were aware that there's multiple parts to the British identity, and that Northern Ireland, like Scotland, forms part of this. Most were also able to differentiate that I was Northern Irish, ie. from Northern Ireland, as opposed to just Ireland. Some referred to 'Irish' as a componenet of Britishness - many of these in a kind of loosely aware way that the 'Irish' they were using in this context wasn't the same as the 'Irish' connected with Dublin, that three-coloured flag, and he football team that was playing in the World Cup. Others just lumped in the whole lot under the generic label 'British', or without using the label British certainly didn't think of the Irish as foreign. I never met anyone who said I wasn't British, as if there was a border running through the Irish Sea and the North Channel.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:34:43 PM
My experience variously from friends, acquaintances and strangers was something like this - most were aware that there's multiple parts to the British identity, and that Northern Ireland, like Scotland, forms part of this. Most were also able to differentiate that I was Northern Irish, ie. from Northern Ireland, as opposed to just Ireland. Some referred to 'Irish' as a componenet of Britishness - many of these in a kind of loosely aware way that the 'Irish' they were using in this context wasn't the same as the 'Irish' connected with Dublin, that three-coloured flag, and he football team that was playing in the World Cup. Others just lumped in the whole lot under the generic label 'British', or without using the label British certainly didn't think of the Irish as foreign. I never met anyone who said I wasn't British, as if there was a border running through the Irish Sea and the North Channel.
You should try widening your circle of friends/acquaintances/strangers somewhat, i.e., leave the Conservative Club once in a while
Many of these people who recognise your Britishness also think us lot down south are British too ;)
I was in Clifden a few years ago and an English couple just couldnt understand why we didnt trade in sterling :o :o :o
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 03:30:16 PM
To prove to the locals he too was British, I guess, as MW said a wee while ago.
Because I think if they had seen him wearing an OWC jersey, they'd naturally presume he was Irish, I would imagine.
That would be a particularly wierd way of a Northern Irish person showing he was British. By dropping a Northern Irish jersey in favour of an English one. It falls down on the paradox that surely then he'd be saying that 'English' is the only British identity.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:38:18 PM
That would be a particularly wierd way of a Northern Irish person showing he was British. By dropping a Northern Irish jersey in favour of an English one. It falls down on the paradox that surely then he'd be saying that 'English' is the only British identity.
Round and round we go :D
Having live in england for 15 years, Ive enough exp on how the english etc see us all. They see you as Irish, they will try and pick up on your accent to see what part of Ireland you come from thats about it. The "british Irish" types over here are more than happy to be seen as plain Irish, in fact the only time you here any of them professing their britishness is when then are talking to other irish people, usually manifested by droping London Derry or simialr into the conversation somehow, usually in an Irish bar. As a rule of thumb, the english welsh scots dont give a f**k what side of the divide you hail from, you are all paddies. They dont want to take the conversation and the issue any deeper than that. Their geography of the island is minimal, and have little clue about which bits are where etc..
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 03:36:59 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:34:43 PM
My experience variously from friends, acquaintances and strangers was something like this - most were aware that there's multiple parts to the British identity, and that Northern Ireland, like Scotland, forms part of this. Most were also able to differentiate that I was Northern Irish, ie. from Northern Ireland, as opposed to just Ireland. Some referred to 'Irish' as a componenet of Britishness - many of these in a kind of loosely aware way that the 'Irish' they were using in this context wasn't the same as the 'Irish' connected with Dublin, that three-coloured flag, and he football team that was playing in the World Cup. Others just lumped in the whole lot under the generic label 'British', or without using the label British certainly didn't think of the Irish as foreign. I never met anyone who said I wasn't British, as if there was a border running through the Irish Sea and the North Channel.
You should try widening your circle of friends/acquaintances/strangers somewhat, i.e., leave the Conservative Club once in a while
Never been in a Conservative club in my life, though the two Tories I did know where one one hand a gay working-class Geordie of part Polish descent, and a Catholic fella from South Down of Italian ancestry and citizenship...happily British both :)
QuoteIt falls down on the paradox that surely then he'd be saying that 'English' is the only British identity.
Yes, I guess it does..... as I imagine quite a few Englishmen might tell you.
Agree with An Fear Rua there re. British Irish types.
On a lighter note, I was talking to a boy whilst in London who told me he was from Magh-ara-felt; when I said I knew people in Mahera-felt, he dropped his pretend Norn Iron accent and admitted he was Scottish.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 03:15:26 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:02:21 PM
I lived in England for nearly 3 years - people were perfectly accepting of of my British identity.
Did you go on about being British all the time!!
Yep I wore one of those John Bull waistcoats and everything :)
" a Catholic fella from South Down of Italian ancestry" was happily British?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:45:55 PM
Yep I wore one of those John Bull waistcoats and everything :)
Pretending to be English as well then ;)
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 02:37:55 PM
One more thing - this native of this part of the United Kingdom also holds citizenship of his own country and gives his allegiance to it. So you can add me to the ranks of your "traitors" along with the majority of the people of Northern Ireland.
Did you join the army MW? How many Iraqis did you rape and murder today? Does Quinn Direct offer a special mercenary policy?
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:45:55 PM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 03:15:26 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:02:21 PM
I lived in England for nearly 3 years - people were perfectly accepting of of my British identity.
Did you go on about being British all the time!!
Yep I wore one of those John Bull waistcoats and everything :)
thats twice now :D
still less comedy and maybe read up more on what ACTUALLY happened in the six counties, not hand chriatian paisleys 'fairy tale version' of it as told to wee unionist/loyalists as they grow up..
still yer funny today (well funny everyday but not usually in that way) ;)
Quote from: Donagh on July 31, 2007, 03:48:19 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 02:37:55 PM
One more thing - this native of this part of the United Kingdom also holds citizenship of his own country and gives his allegiance to it. So you can add me to the ranks of your "traitors" along with the majority of the people of Northern Ireland.
Did you join the army MW? How many Iraqis did you rape and murder today? Does Quinn Direct offer a special mercenary policy?
I didn't join the army. I do however hold the same national allegiance as those who did and have, so I must also be a "traitor" to the same thing that they are, whatever it might be...
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 03:46:46 PM
" a Catholic fella from South Down of Italian ancestry" was happily British?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Yes indeed. Lives in London now. Big ol' Tory he is too.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 03:30:16 PM
To prove to the locals he too was British, I guess, as MW said a wee while ago.
Surely an Engerlund top would mean he was English??
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 03:30:16 PM
Because I think if they had seen him wearing an OWC jersey, they'd naturally presume he was Irish, I would imagine.
Surely if he was wearing an OWC jersey he would be Irish, or at least have some sort of Irish heritage.
I don't know. You're confusing me.
"Some sort of Irish heritage."
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 03:59:28 PM
I don't know. You're confusing me.
"Some sort of Irish heritage."
I mean he would have Irish parents/grandparents or have lived in NI or whatever. It would be unlikely that somebody with no connection would want to wear an OWC shirt (or any other country that they weren't connected to).
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 03:55:49 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 31, 2007, 03:46:46 PM
" a Catholic fella from South Down of Italian ancestry" was happily British?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Yes indeed. Lives in London now. Big ol' Tory he is too.
And Berlusconi's his hero, nuff said!
Nah, he was a member of the Northern League!
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 04:05:38 PM
I mean he would have Irish parents/grandparents or have lived in NI or whatever. It would be unlikely that somebody with no connection would want to wear an OWC shirt (or any other country that they weren't connected to).
"or whatever".......ach now, MW, you're a smart guy. What are you really saying here, because you have lost me.
My point for MW was how would someone from Ireland, working or living in England, try to convince everyone he meets that he is British. Well, if he wore an OWC jersey when in company, for example, I would imagine most would presume he was Irish, but yet he'd still be insisting he was British etc.
Like I say, you've lost me. I am beginning to think some want their cake and eat it too. "I'm Irish", "I'm northern Irish", "I'm British", depending on which direction the wind is blowing. But I know we've been through this debate time and time again.
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 04:05:38 PM
I mean he would have Irish parents/grandparents or have lived in NI or whatever. It would be unlikely that somebody with no connection would want to wear an OWC shirt (or any other country that they weren't connected to).
OWC site currently has a memorial thread to a German chap who supported OWC. No connections with NI mentioned.
/Jim.
Loved the poster on OWC who said he "loved a bit of culture" i.e. getting pissed-up and watching an Orange parade.
I wonder how many British people would get off on the same notion of culture. I'll bet he loves to go to this place on his holliers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vfd9TV8TaI&mode=related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vfd9TV8TaI&mode=related&search=)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDMT9751Lrk&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDMT9751Lrk&NR=1)
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 04:12:56 PM
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 04:05:38 PM
I mean he would have Irish parents/grandparents or have lived in NI or whatever. It would be unlikely that somebody with no connection would want to wear an OWC shirt (or any other country that they weren't connected to).
"or whatever".......ach now, MW, you're a smart guy. What are you really saying here, because you have lost me.
You've quoted me but addressed your answer to MW, we're not all the same you know.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 04:12:56 PM
My point for MW was how would someone from Ireland, working or living in England, try to convince everyone he meets that he is British. Well, if he wore an OWC jersey when in company, for example, I would imagine most would presume he was Irish, but yet he'd still be insisting he was British etc.
Why would he be trying to convince anybody of anything? I've lived and worked in the RoI, America, Engerlund and (currently) Wales and I've never once tried to convince anybody of my nationality. If it comes up in conversation (hard to miss the accent) I say I'm from Belfast and if that gets a blank look I say Northern Ireland.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 04:12:56 PM
Like I say, you've lost me. I am beginning to think some want their cake and eat it too. "I'm Irish", "I'm northern Irish", "I'm British", depending on which direction the wind is blowing. But I know we've been through this debate time and time again.
Nothing to do with which way the wind is blowing. All of those things are correct (although Northern Irish should have a capital N ;)). You can be all of those things, they're not mutually exclusive, I'm also European.
watch any of the political shows, always a few texts running across the screen "im British , not Irish" from d.Heed East Belfast etc
Sorry sammyG, I did mean you not MW at the time.
Ach I suppose they were getting confused with Belfast, Ohio.
So you have quadruple citizenship! As many nationalities as the face of the Albert Clock!
Woops, that should have been with a capital s.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on July 31, 2007, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 04:05:38 PM
I mean he would have Irish parents/grandparents or have lived in NI or whatever. It would be unlikely that somebody with no connection would want to wear an OWC shirt (or any other country that they weren't connected to).
OWC site currently has a memorial thread to a German chap who supported OWC. No connections with NI mentioned.
/Jim.
I know, there are also a few others, including Shaun with an H who's been to every NI match home and away for years but has no connection to NI. That's why I said unlikely rather than impossible.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 04:24:19 PMSo you have quadruple citizenship! As many nationalities as the face of the Albert Clock!
Woops, that should have been with a capital s.
No only one nationality, British.
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 04:12:42 PM
Nah, he was a member of the Northern League!
This partitionist shite's just in his blood then :D
Right - I've got what you're saying. Your nationality is British but you can also be northern irish, Irish, European too, errr, yes, that's it, isn't it?
Reminds me of that old poem we learned at school, my name is John, in France it is Jean etc.....
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 04:31:01 PM
Right - I've got what you're saying. Your nationality is British but you can also be northern irish, Irish, European too, errr, yes, that's it, isn't it?
Reminds me of that old poem we learned at school, my name is John, in France it is Jean etc.....
Err yes that's it, not too difficult a concept is it? You can be a Cavanman and Irish and Eurpean, you can be a Texan and American, you can be Northern Irish and British etc etc etc and that's before we even get into the issue of dual (or more) nationalities.
SammyG, you call yourself what you want to, by all means.
I just can't comprehend why people from here get so het up about identifying themselves as British when in Britain. Northern ireland is not in Britain so perhaps, as someone suggested here a few days back, the nationality of "United Kingdomer" should be used.
I don't mind discussing 'dual citizenship' with you as it's the way forward for this little part of the world, in my opinion.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 04:39:18 PM
SammyG, you call yourself what you want to, by all means.
I just can't comprehend why people from here get so het up about identifying themselves as British when in Britain. Northern ireland is not in Britain so perhaps, as someone suggested here a few days back, the nationality of "United Kingdomer" should be used.
I don't mind discussing 'dual citizenship' with you as it's the way forward for this little part of the world, in my opinion.
And there we have the crux of it all. You can call yourself what you like so long as it's not British ::)
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 31, 2007, 04:54:49 PM
And there we have the crux of it all. You can call yourself what you like so long as it's not British ::)
No the crux of the problem is pricks from Owc stirring shite. ;)
I did use the word 'perhaps' re. United Kingdomer in my posting but sure why let a good spin come in the way of truth.
Northern Ireland isn't in Britain. You do accept that?
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 05:01:05 PMNorthern Ireland isn't in Britain. You do accept that?
Depends on context. Northern Ireland is not part of the island known as Great Britain, obviously, but Britain as a term is often used as shorthand for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In the same way people talk about Ireland when they mean the Republic of Ireland or US when they mean the United States of America.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 05:01:05 PM
I did use the word 'perhaps' re. United Kingdomer in my posting but sure why let a good spin come in the way of truth.
Northern Ireland isn't in Britain. You do accept that?
Northern Ireland isn't in GREAT Britain - the term 'Britain' is a bit more malleable (like 'Ireland').
"Maybe the next time they need cannon fodder, they`ll give you guns. Last time they sent the Irish out to fight for them they were just bullet catchers, but now the prods have changed that one round and in fact celebrate the battle of the somme. You couldnt make it up."
5ive Times, so so true. I've had the same thing said to me here in Oz re. the Diggers at ANZAC Cove (actually a disrespectfully deliberate changing of the local placename). You should see their faces when I explain that the Aussies were under threat of being shot by the English generals if they didn't attack. The Aussies should not be commemorating this as heroic, but should instead be using it as another (what number are we up to now?) justified reason of clearing out of the English commonwealth. Until they do they'll always be the butt of English jokes..."you all live in a convict colony, a convict colony, a convict colony..."
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 05:01:05 PM
I did use the word 'perhaps' re. United Kingdomer in my posting but sure why let a good spin come in the way of truth.
Northern Ireland isn't in Britain. You do accept that?
I know Northern Ireland is not in Britain.
On the one hand you told Sammy you didn't mind what nationality he called himself then on the other suggested an alternative. No spin, thats what you did.
If someone holds a passport that states their nationality as British Citizen then he has the right to call him or herself British. Do you accept that?
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 04:39:18 PM
Northern ireland is not in Britain so perhaps, as someone suggested here a few days back, the nationality of "United Kingdomer" should be used.
I think Ukish would be a better word :D
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 05:01:05 PM
I did use the word 'perhaps' re. United Kingdomer in my posting but sure why let a good spin come in the way of truth.
Northern Ireland isn't in Britain. You do accept that?
Northern Ireland isn't in GREAT Britain - the term 'Britain' is a bit more malleable (like 'Ireland').
No it's not, no part of Ireland is in any part of Britain (unless they're magical islands?), and the 'Great' is a total waste of space; it's original intention was to distinguish it from 'Little' Britain (way back). It then fell into disuse entirely until some Victorian tulips revived it, and so began the thinking that 'great' meant great as in the 'wonderful' sense. D'oh.
People from Britain, i.e., Britons, i.e., those from England, Wales or Scotland are British, that is their island, and no one can
ever change that. Within that they can be English, Welsh or Scottish, and further categorised as Yorkshire, Pembrokeshire, etc.
Your island, i.e., the island you're actually from, is Ireland. Ergo, using identical logic (to that of the Britons), you're first and foremost Irish, and within that you may choose to categorise yourself as northern Irish, and further as Antrim, Down, etc.. And unlike the Britons' Britishness, yours is of the totally ephemeral variety, i.e., impermanent, i.e., at the whim of a Whitehall pen. And if Whitehall decided to rescind your 'Britishness' tomorrow, there's not a whole lot you can do about it.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 31, 2007, 08:22:16 PM
Quote from: MW on July 31, 2007, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on July 31, 2007, 05:01:05 PM
I did use the word 'perhaps' re. United Kingdomer in my posting but sure why let a good spin come in the way of truth.
Northern Ireland isn't in Britain. You do accept that?
Northern Ireland isn't in GREAT Britain - the term 'Britain' is a bit more malleable (like 'Ireland').
No it's not, no part of Ireland is in any part of Britain (unless they're magical islands?), and the 'Great' is a total waste of space; it's original intention was to distinguish it from 'Little' Britain (way back). It then fell into disuse entirely until some Victorian tulips revived it, and so began the thinking that 'great' meant great as in the 'wonderful' sense. D'oh.
People from Britain, i.e., Britons, i.e., those from England, Wales or Scotland are British, that is their island, and no one can ever change that. Within that they can be English, Welsh or Scottish, and further categorised as Yorkshire, Pembrokeshire, etc.
Your island, i.e., the island you're actually from, is Ireland. Ergo, using identical logic (to that of the Britons), you're first and foremost Irish, and within that you may choose to categorise yourself as northern Irish, and further as Antrim, Down, etc.. And unlike the Britons' Britishness, yours is of the totally ephemeral variety, i.e., impermanent, i.e., at the whim of a Whitehall pen. And if Whitehall decided to rescind your 'Britishness' tomorrow, there's not a whole lot you can do about it.
Thanks for that, all sorted now. Wish to fcuk you'd been around 800 years ago we could all have saved ourselves a hell of a lot of bother. ;)
Quote from: SammyG on July 31, 2007, 08:36:43 PM
Thanks for that, all sorted now. Wish to fcuk you'd been around 800 years ago we could all have saved ourselves a hell of a lot of bother. ;)
Any time SammyG, absolutely
any time ;)
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 31, 2007, 06:11:34 PM
I know Northern Ireland is not in Britain.
On the one hand you told Sammy you didn't mind what nationality he called himself then on the other suggested an alternative. No spin, thats what you did.
If someone holds a passport that states their nationality as British Citizen then he has the right to call him or herself British. Do you accept that?
Chris
1. I said 'perhaps' call oneself a United Kingdomer. I don't believe I was forcing anyone to accept my opinion.
2. You may call yourself whatever you wish. Absolutely. I know plenty of people with a UK passport who call themselves Irish. They just got the UK passport out of convenience.
Still, nice to have a choice. Perhaps you too could avail of an Irish passport, if you wished. But it's your choice.
Quote from: 5iveTimes on August 01, 2007, 10:40:09 AM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on August 01, 2007, 08:24:21 AM
I know plenty of people with a UK passport who call themselves Irish. They just got the UK passport out of convenience.
That really pisses me off, how can anyone who calls themselves Irish have a UK passport (member of my family please take note)
I'd find it extremely difficult to hold a UK passport but i suppose it doesn't matter too much to some people and they do not judge their 'irishness' by the passport they carry. They're entitled to their opinion.
Quote from: 5iveTimes on August 01, 2007, 10:40:09 AM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on August 01, 2007, 08:24:21 AM
I know plenty of people with a UK passport who call themselves Irish. They just got the UK passport out of convenience.
That really pisses me off, how can anyone who calls themselves Irish have a UK passport (member of my family please take note)
It used to be cheaper and less hassle to get the Brit one. I took great pleasure signing an application for an Irish one by a newly qualified PSNI officer a few months back. :D
Quote from: Donagh on August 01, 2007, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: 5iveTimes on August 01, 2007, 10:40:09 AM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on August 01, 2007, 08:24:21 AM
I know plenty of people with a UK passport who call themselves Irish. They just got the UK passport out of convenience.
That really pisses me off, how can anyone who calls themselves Irish have a UK passport (member of my family please take note)
It used to be cheaper and less hassle to get the Brit one. I took great pleasure signing an application for an Irish one by a newly qualified PSNI officer a few months back. :D
quite frankly its digusting that anyone would turn to a brit passport to save a few hours or some cash. These same people will be some of the best bar stool republicans you ever meet.
Quote from: Donagh on August 01, 2007, 10:45:19 AMIt used to be cheaper and less hassle to get the Brit one.
I thought it was the other way round. There used to be a story that the Shankill had one of the highest numbers of RoI passports, outside the Republic, because it was easier for 'Loyalists' to travel (especially to America) on an RoI passport than a UK one. Might just be an urban myth but it's a good story.
I've always had an Irish passport but, for now, pay taxes to HMG, vote in UK general elections and work for one of 'her' institutions. It doesn't make me a traitor, or a taker of Liz's shilling, in my opinion, but I'm sure there are plenty of UK 'citizens' who'd like the option of dual citizenship in order to obtain an Irish passport.
PS I would like to be able to 'opt out' of paying tax for the UK's defence policy, the so-called 'civil list' and the building of nuclear power stations, ach sin scéal eile.