Please sign our petition to stop border controls.
Please share @Irish4Europe
https://t.co/mPzeeoWZR9 (https://t.co/mPzeeoWZR9)
Eh ... no.
Can't agree with you "No Wides".
I want to stop this happening again.
Sign the petition at https://t.co/mPzeeoWZR9 and share.
(http://irishforeurope.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/border-controls-v3-768x552.jpg)
Why would we stop border controls? Unregulated free movement is a good thing?
So you want a petition to stop something that isn't happening and that there are no plans to introduce?
Can we get a petition to stop Warwickshire winning the All-Ireland and one to stop Bolivia invading Rockall?
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:31:12 AM
Why would we stop border controls? Unregulated free movement is a good thing?
If the Border between 6 and 26 Cos.is closed you'll have some effin delays anytime Offaly play up North.
Probably have contractors on full time work rebuilding them every week as the locals demolish them ;D
I presume he means throughout Europe? To be honest I'm glad someone checks my passport etc when I go to a different country. Although as you say, I'm not sure driving from france to spain, or spain to portugal, you'd see this. I know you don't see it in dundalk anyway :)
Wait till ye're playing Warwickshire....
Apologies, I just read the actual petition now. I can't see border patrols being brought back in here.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:37:11 AM
I presume he means throughout Europe? To be honest I'm glad someone checks my passport etc when I go to a different country. Although as you say, I'm not sure driving from france to spain, or spain to portugal, you'd see this. I know you don't see it in dundalk anyway :)
He is clearly talking about this island and it isn't something to sneer at just because you don't live near the border.
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
I'd be amazed if Brexit gets a yes. I predict at least 60% vote to stay.
Could you imagine the British army returning to South Armagh. Sitting ducks springs to mind.
Quote from: GJL on May 25, 2016, 12:15:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
I'd be amazed if Brexit gets a yes. I predict at least 60% vote to stay.
A Brexit will only get a No vote if people actually get off the sofa and vote for it, or even better campaign against it.
That's why I want people to sign and share the petition.
A Brexit might seem moronic to most sane people, paticularly young, or degree educated.
Particularly so in Northern Ireland which would bear the brunt.
A Brexit would have to mean some form of border control between Ireland and Northern Ireland, in terms of both trade and immigration.
The problem is that in England, particularly SE England, there's a huge constituency, a lot of it little Englander, and anti-migration, that believe the diet of anti-EU garbage coming from the likes of the
Mail/Sun/Express. And they don't give a sh1t about Northern Ireland or anywhere else tbh.
That's why the threat is real - particularly if enough young people don't vote.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.
The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.
Quote from: general_lee on May 25, 2016, 12:18:50 PM
Could you imagine the British army returning to South Armagh. Sitting ducks springs to mind.
A primary reason why border patrols won't be introduced in my opinion. It would be a pretty big boost for the dissidents too as everyone along the border steadily gets more and more wound up by being searched by British soldiers every time they want to cross the border.
Charlie Flanagan: Brexit may mean border controls
http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/05/25/news/charlie-flanagan-brexit-may-mean-border-immigration-controls-531312/ (http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/05/25/news/charlie-flanagan-brexit-may-mean-border-immigration-controls-531312/)
Daniel Mulhall, Irish Ambassador: Why I hope the UK will remain in the European Union
"The current open border between North and South in Ireland could not be guaranteed to continue unchanged in a post-Brexit scenario."
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/05/25/daniel-mulhall-irish-ambassador-why-i-hope-the-uk-will-remain-in-the-european-union/
Why would a Brexit automatically mean border control between the UK and ROI. It isn't there at the moment, and surely any border imposed would have to be at the behest of one of the two states? Or is the assumption that if the UK leaves the EU, then it (the UK) would automatically want closed borders?
The Common Travel Area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area) has been in place since before the EU or EEC existed.
Quote from: snatter on May 25, 2016, 01:37:40 PM
Daniel Mulhall, Irish Ambassador: Why I hope the UK will remain in the European Union
"The current open border between North and South in Ireland could not be guaranteed to continue unchanged in a post-Brexit scenario."
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/05/25/daniel-mulhall-irish-ambassador-why-i-hope-the-uk-will-remain-in-the-european-union/
That just shows exactly how cordial things are between Dublin and London. We are simply campaigning for for the stay vote.
'Could' not be guaranteed..... 'may' mean border controls....These messages are for the UK voters. Nothing serious in them and certainly nothing for anyone here to get worried about.
Quote from: snatter on May 25, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
A Brexit would have to mean some form of border control between Ireland and Northern Ireland, in terms of both trade and immigration.
I'm not a fan of Little Englanders, but I have nothing but contempt for Little Irelanders who attempt to reduce Ireland to the 26 counties. We are talking here about a border within Ireland.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 01:46:35 PM
Why would a Brexit automatically mean border control between the UK and ROI. It isn't there at the moment, and surely any border imposed would have to be at the behest of one of the two states? Or is the assumption that if the UK leaves the EU, then it (the UK) would automatically want closed borders?
it doesn't automatically mean this, but the whole project is Britain cutting itself off and this is the logical consequence of that.
Why would you trust the politicans scaremongering about a Brexit? Whatever they say, it means the opposite.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 25, 2016, 03:45:49 PM
Why would you trust the politicans scaremongering about a Brexit? Whatever they say, it means the opposite.
Because I don't trust the British.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 25, 2016, 03:45:49 PM
Why would you trust the politicans scaremongering about a Brexit? Whatever they say, it means the opposite.
The Right Honourable James Hacker - First rule in politics: never believe anything until it's officially denied.
It is easy to say the politicians are scaremongering, but the academic types are too
http://qpol.qub.ac.uk/23-june-referendum-impact-borders/
No chance there will be a Brexit and the polls indicate that support is growing all the time to remain in the EU. I predict about 65% will vote to stay. A lot of scaremongering about border patrols. Of more to note rest will be the regional splits of which areas will vote to leave/remain and in particular the SNP will hope for an emphatic stay vote to support their case for another independence referendum.
Quote from: yellowcard on May 26, 2016, 12:43:09 AM
No chance there will be a Brexit and the polls indicate that support is growing all the time to remain in the EU. I predict about 65% will vote to stay. A lot of scaremongering about border patrols. Of more to note rest will be the regional splits of which areas will vote to leave/remain and in particular the SNP will hope for an emphatic stay vote to support their case for another independence referendum.
I would have thought the SNP would have been hoping on the Sly that there was a Brexit, gives them a big reason to call another referendum rather than business as usual.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 26, 2016, 12:13:16 AM
It is easy to say the politicians are scaremongering, but the academic types are too
http://qpol.qub.ac.uk/23-june-referendum-impact-borders/
"Any UK citizen crossing the border to the Republic of Ireland would be a non-EU citizen after all."This is not correct first up. Many citizens of the UK (in Northern Ireland) are, or can easily become, Irish citizens and thus EU citizens and that won't change. Everyone on here knows that sentence is very misleading. In fact the whole dynamic of the relationship is that currently a large proportion of people in the 6 identify themselves as Irish and they are legally entitled to become citizens of Ireland. Now either way they are citizens of the EU, but post-Brexit they could still become citizens of the EU via an Irish passport. The EU will not undo this, nor will London.
"Maintaining the relaxed situation between Northern Ireland and Ireland after the UK withdraws from the EU might be just possible if the UK agrees that all EU citizens enjoy free movement rights as before, that free movement of goods is maintained, and that both countries join Schengen."This misses the point completely that currently neither Britain or Ireland is in Schengen. There would be no need to join after a Brexit either. Joining Schengen would change the border relationship with the rest of the EU, but it would change nothing with the 26 counties. The only relevance of Schengen would be if the 26 was a member of Schengen, which it isn't.
"UK citizens living in the Republic of Ireland have equal access to health care and social services with Irish citizens, and Irish citizens living in Northern Ireland have equal access to the NHS and schools. Again, suggesting that withdrawal from the EU would not change any of these daily advantages of free movement rights is misleading."Changing advantages does not necessarily imply their complete removal. The language here is deliberately wooly. If the political will of London & Dublin was for the status quo to remain, and unless some radical parties get into power I don't see much change there, then the status quo will remain. The EU will not get involved unless it wished to risk an Irexit, which could lead to the dominoes falling. (If was the above author that sentence might read: Suggesting that there would be no change to the glue holding the EU together is misleading.)
Actually I think the QUB piece was a bit over the top and it doesn't reflect well on the university.
The basic point is that the British are doing this to change things and any change in this respect is both undesirable in itself and a undermining of the Good Friday agreement as it is a change not requested by the people in Ireland, north and south.
QuoteIf the political will of London & Dublin was for the status quo to remain, and unless some radical parties get into power I don't see much change there, then the status quo will remain. The EU will not get involved unless it wished to risk an Irexit, which could lead to the dominoes falling.
What will happen in the London government? One presumes the little Englanders would have more influence at least. But even if this does not change much there would a lot of confusion, and the UK government would have to negotiate all manners of things, I'm not sure that they would pay full attention to this issue. The "EU" is 26 other countries, say Romania wishes to ensure that its citizens can still come to Britain and they play silly buggers in the process and refuse to agree to any treaty that does not do this? It could be messy.
Quote from: MoChara on May 26, 2016, 09:00:36 AM
I would have thought the SNP would have been hoping on the Sly that there was a Brexit, gives them a big reason to call another referendum rather than business as usual.
The SNP cause might be as well served by a significantly different vote in Scotland than in England. What would be interesting would be if England was 50.1% out, but the Celtic fringe kept the UK in.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 26, 2016, 11:12:09 AM
Actually I think the QUB piece was a bit over the top and it doesn't reflect well on the university.
The basic point is that the British are doing this to change things and any change in this respect is both undesirable in itself and a undermining of the Good Friday agreement as it is a change not requested by the people in Ireland, north and south.
QuoteIf the political will of London & Dublin was for the status quo to remain, and unless some radical parties get into power I don't see much change there, then the status quo will remain. The EU will not get involved unless it wished to risk an Irexit, which could lead to the dominoes falling.
What will happen in the London government? One presumes the little Englanders would have more influence at least. But even if this does not change much there would a lot of confusion, and the UK government would have to negotiate all manners of things, I'm not sure that they would pay full attention to this issue. The "EU" is 26 other countries, say Romania wishes to ensure that its citizens can still come to Britain and they play silly buggers in the process and refuse to agree to any treaty that does not do this? It could be messy.
Quote from: MoChara on May 26, 2016, 09:00:36 AM
I would have thought the SNP would have been hoping on the Sly that there was a Brexit, gives them a big reason to call another referendum rather than business as usual.
The SNP cause might be as well served by a significantly different vote in Scotland than in England. What would be interesting would be if England was 50.1% out, but the Celtic fringe kept the UK in.
I think the point here is that no negotiations are required to maintain something already agreed to. Our Romanian straw men cannot block a previously signed treaty.
Quote from: LeoMc on May 26, 2016, 11:56:04 AM
I think the point here is that no negotiations are required to maintain something already agreed to. Our Romanian straw men cannot block a previously signed treaty.
I think the point here is that Britain withdrawing from the EU nullifies a shedload of agreements made when they were in the EU and these have to be made again. Ireland and the UK (outside the EU) cannot just agree to have free trade among themselves any more than Romania can just decide to open its border with Moldova (which it might well like to do).
Quote from: armaghniac on May 26, 2016, 11:12:09 AM
Actually I think the QUB piece was a bit over the top and it doesn't reflect well on the university.
The basic point is that the British are doing this to change things and any change in this respect is both undesirable in itself and a undermining of the Good Friday agreement as it is a change not requested by the people in Ireland, north and south.
QuoteIf the political will of London & Dublin was for the status quo to remain, and unless some radical parties get into power I don't see much change there, then the status quo will remain. The EU will not get involved unless it wished to risk an Irexit, which could lead to the dominoes falling.
What will happen in the London government? One presumes the little Englanders would have more influence at least. But even if this does not change much there would a lot of confusion, and the UK government would have to negotiate all manners of things, I'm not sure that they would pay full attention to this issue. The "EU" is 26 other countries, say Romania wishes to ensure that its citizens can still come to Britain and they play silly buggers in the process and refuse to agree to any treaty that does not do this? It could be messy.
Quote from: MoChara on May 26, 2016, 09:00:36 AM
I would have thought the SNP would have been hoping on the Sly that there was a Brexit, gives them a big reason to call another referendum rather than business as usual.
The SNP cause might be as well served by a significantly different vote in Scotland than in England. What would be interesting would be if England was 50.1% out, but the Celtic fringe kept the UK in.
I agree with most of this. The point about 'little Englanders' though is that they are very much English, and are unlikely to be that bothered about the 6 counties.
Like I said, it wold take something radical gaining power in the Dáil or Westminster to destabilise the status quo. Of course it could happen, but I don't see it at the moment.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 26, 2016, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on May 26, 2016, 11:56:04 AM
I think the point here is that no negotiations are required to maintain something already agreed to. Our Romanian straw men cannot block a previously signed treaty.
I think the point here is that Britain withdrawing from the EU nullifies a shedload of agreements made when they were in the EU and these have to be made again. Ireland and the UK (outside the EU) cannot just agree to have free trade among themselves any more than Romania can just decide to open its border with Moldova (which it might well like to do).
You are correct, any agreements made as part of the EU would be null an void. I was referring to the Common travel area in place prior to ascension to the EU.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on May 25, 2016, 01:20:40 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 25, 2016, 12:18:50 PM
Could you imagine the British army returning to South Armagh. Sitting ducks springs to mind.
A primary reason why border patrols won't be introduced in my opinion. It would be a pretty big boost for the dissidents too as everyone along the border steadily gets more and more wound up by being searched by British soldiers every time they want to cross the border.
The UK border checks will be withdrawn to GB in event of Brexit. Would serve to highlight the absurdity of the border here IMO.
I'd say these polls are bollix. If people see them, and 2/3s of the uk are remaining in EU, then it's all psychological as most will go with the crowd, because they obviously know more than I do etc.
Quote from: muppet on May 25, 2016, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.
The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 28, 2016, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 25, 2016, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.
The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?
I think as Keyboard Warrier states above, the effective control would be at GB ports and airports, given the practical difficulties in doing anything around the NI border. Unionist would whine about this, but most people in NI would probably prefer this given the alternative.
But even customs type stuff could be very disruptive to business.
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 28, 2016, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 25, 2016, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.
The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?
EU passengers arriving in Ireland must show a passport which is the same as US passengers arriving in Ireland, albeit in a different queue. Anyone arriving in Britain from either the EU or the US must go through the same process. The only exception is people arriving from Ireland.
There is no need currently for anyone to show a passport going from anywhere in Ireland to anywhere in Britain (Ryanair's rule is their own policy).
The reason that I mention the US is that their security is approved by the EU, which means the the EU accepts transfer passengers from the US without re-processing them through a security check. It is different for Canada and the rest of the world as there is no agreement with the EU.
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This would be fine, although they haven't managed to do this for non EU nationalities to date.
The problem arises if Britain decides (say) that Bulgarians need a visa even for a tourist visit. Or if the EU makes a deal with Turkey, as they have recently have done, to ease visa restrictions.
If the boat to Holyhead or Stranraer ends up full of Bulgarians then you get controls at GB.
http://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/irishman-living-in-britain-vows-to-back-brexit-because-immigrants-are-coming-to-london-to-take-work-34757338.html
Quote from: armaghniac on May 28, 2016, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This would be fine, although they haven't managed to do this for non EU nationalities to date.
The problem arises if Britain decides (say) that Bulgarians need a visa even for a tourist visit. Or if the EU makes a deal with Turkey, as they have recently have done, to ease visa restrictions.
If the boat to Holyhead or Stranraer ends up full of Bulgarians then you get controls at GB.
This type of problem has already arisen. Ireland wanted to join Schengen, Britain didn't. So Ireland didn't join.
Brexit won't happen anyway.
I don't think there will be a Brexit either.
As disgruntled as your average Brit is at the moment they fear change just as much as most people. Better the devil you know and all that. Similar situation as the Scottish Independence vote and we know how that went.
There just hasn't been a clear view as to what the situation would be outside the EU.
It is important for people to get out and vote though. The EU one of these things that if you didn't have it you'd have to invent it and because it has been taken over to some extent by bureaucrats and ahole politicians doesn't change that. It is also an opportunity to vote against some unpleasant people, notably the Jim Allisters of this world.
Edit: I see Hugh Orde in the paper and on the radio basically saying that Villiers is telling porkies that there won't be any border controls. He was rather restrained in this comments, when of course any attempt at border controls would mean that likes of PSNI concept going down the drain.
Cannot see a Brexit either. A very straightforward win to stay I think. English very conservative by nature. North and midlands to vote very heavily to stay.
Big winner will be Corbyn and to a much lesser degree Cameron (insofar as he will have seen off one rival but will have seen the Tories split again ................ not really his fault but the can couldn't have been kicked down the street any further).
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 28, 2016, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 25, 2016, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.
The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?
People already have to show their passport coming into GB or Ireland.
Free movement is not about getting in or out of a Country it is being able to move there and work there legally.
Quote from: Canalman on May 31, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
Cannot see a Brexit either. A very straightforward win to stay I think. English very conservative by nature. North and midlands to vote very heavily to stay.
Big winner will be Corbyn and to a much lesser degree Cameron (insofar as he will have seen off one rival but will have seen the Tories split again ................ not really his fault but the can couldn't have been kicked down the street any further).
I wouldn't be so sure. i work in London and the majority of English people i have spoken to would vote to leave. There are huge areas of old conservative England who want nothing to do with Europe as well as the large number of Military Towns. UKIP had a massive number of individual votes in the last election which did not translate to seats but they are far more popular than the press would have you believe.
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.
Quote from: ludermor on May 31, 2016, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: Canalman on May 31, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
Cannot see a Brexit either. A very straightforward win to stay I think. English very conservative by nature. North and midlands to vote very heavily to stay.
Big winner will be Corbyn and to a much lesser degree Cameron (insofar as he will have seen off one rival but will have seen the Tories split again ................ not really his fault but the can couldn't have been kicked down the street any further).
I wouldn't be so sure. i work in London and the majority of English people i have spoken to would vote to leave. There are huge areas of old conservative England who want nothing to do with Europe as well as the large number of Military Towns. UKIP had a massive number of individual votes in the last election which did not translate to seats but they are far more popular than the press would have you believe.
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.
Up here in sunny Brum the feeling i get is don't rock the boat or you will end up in the cut. Most of the lads i work with are for staying but overall there is a feeling of frustration that both camps aren't putting across a coherent argument as to whether stay or go. My own feeling is stay. Not so sure it would result in any seismic change either way.
Quote from: Canalman on May 31, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.
Unless these have taken out British citizenship, they won't have a vote, so their opinion is immaterial.
Quote from: maddog on May 31, 2016, 02:47:58 PM
Quote from: ludermor on May 31, 2016, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: Canalman on May 31, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
Cannot see a Brexit either. A very straightforward win to stay I think. English very conservative by nature. North and midlands to vote very heavily to stay.
Big winner will be Corbyn and to a much lesser degree Cameron (insofar as he will have seen off one rival but will have seen the Tories split again ................ not really his fault but the can couldn't have been kicked down the street any further).
I wouldn't be so sure. i work in London and the majority of English people i have spoken to would vote to leave. There are huge areas of old conservative England who want nothing to do with Europe as well as the large number of Military Towns. UKIP had a massive number of individual votes in the last election which did not translate to seats but they are far more popular than the press would have you believe.
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.
Up here in sunny Brum the feeling i get is don't rock the boat or you will end up in the cut. Most of the lads i work with are for staying but overall there is a feeling of frustration that both camps aren't putting across a coherent argument as to whether stay or go. My own feeling is stay. Not so sure it would result in any seismic change either way.
You are playing a blinder. :D
Quote from: ludermor on May 31, 2016, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: Canalman on May 31, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
Cannot see a Brexit either. A very straightforward win to stay I think. English very conservative by nature. North and midlands to vote very heavily to stay.
Big winner will be Corbyn and to a much lesser degree Cameron (insofar as he will have seen off one rival but will have seen the Tories split again ................ not really his fault but the can couldn't have been kicked down the street any further).
I wouldn't be so sure. i work in London and the majority of English people i have spoken to would vote to leave. There are huge areas of old conservative England who want nothing to do with Europe as well as the large number of Military Towns. UKIP had a massive number of individual votes in the last election which did not translate to seats but they are far more popular than the press would have you believe.
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.
UKIP got 12.6% of the vote last year. They also had no shortage of press coverage.
The Referendum is do or die for the UKIP surely?
If the vote is overwhelmingly 'stay' what is the point of their existence then?'
Quote from: LeoMc on May 31, 2016, 02:05:22 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 28, 2016, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 25, 2016, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 25, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 25, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.
One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.
Back in the day there was little trust between the Dublin and London Governments.
The relationship is far more businesslike these days and even if there is a Brexit, I think there would be a quick deal to prevent the need for borders. Remember we are not part of Schengen so we wouldn't really need to change anything.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Any EU citizen could still enter the Republic - the only difference in being outside Schengen is that they have to show their passport on the way in. That being the case, any EU citizen can then travel on to NI and then cross to GB. If there's no border control. So either there's a border between NI and RoI, or the border is between NI and GB, and London doesn't worry about EU immigration to NI. Or am I missing something?
People already have to show their passport coming into GB or Ireland.
Free movement is not about getting in or out of a Country it is being able to move there and work there legally.
That makes sense. References to Shengen are irrelevant too.
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
Quote from: muppet on May 31, 2016, 07:31:52 PM
The Referendum is do or die for the UKIP surely?
If the vote is overwhelmingly 'stay' what is the point of their existence then?'
the vote is toxic for the Tories. Split down the middle.
Quote from: dec on May 31, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.
And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2016, 08:56:57 PM
Quote from: dec on May 31, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.
And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.
Is that on the ballot paper?
Quote from: muppet on May 31, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2016, 08:56:57 PM
Quote from: dec on May 31, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.
And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.
Is that on the ballot paper?
Don't go all Fearon, you know very well what is on the ballot paper.
As immigration is one concern of those promoting leave, and slogans such as regaining control of borders abound, then actions in this regard after a Brexit would seem a strong possibility.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2016, 09:20:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 31, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2016, 08:56:57 PM
Quote from: dec on May 31, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.
And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.
Is that on the ballot paper?
Don't go all Fearon, you know very well what is on the ballot paper.
As immigration is one concern of those promoting leave, and slogans such as regaining control of borders abound, then actions in this regard after a Brexit would seem a strong possibility.
The border in the 6 counties is a side effect of the ballot. We all know it is mainly little Englanders who want this and they couldn't give a fiddlers about Unionists or anyone else.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2016, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: Canalman on May 31, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.
Unless these have taken out British citizenship, they won't have a vote, so their opinion is immaterial.
i didn't know that, i got the polling card through the door so assumed all people registered could vote. After your post looked it up and irish, Cyprus and Malta citizen but resident in uk can vote
I'm getting hitched in Enniskillen in July. If a Brexit goes ahead, I hope they leave the border open for a few days after. :)
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 31, 2016, 06:56:19 PM
Quote from: ludermor on May 31, 2016, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: Canalman on May 31, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
Cannot see a Brexit either. A very straightforward win to stay I think. English very conservative by nature. North and midlands to vote very heavily to stay.
Big winner will be Corbyn and to a much lesser degree Cameron (insofar as he will have seen off one rival but will have seen the Tories split again ................ not really his fault but the can couldn't have been kicked down the street any further).
I wouldn't be so sure. i work in London and the majority of English people i have spoken to would vote to leave. There are huge areas of old conservative England who want nothing to do with Europe as well as the large number of Military Towns. UKIP had a massive number of individual votes in the last election which did not translate to seats but they are far more popular than the press would have you believe.
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.
UKIP got 12.6% of the vote last year. They also had no shortage of press coverage.
the full 12.5% is almost certain to vote out. It reduces the numbers needed from other parties substantially
Based on bookies odds the current likelihood of a vote to leave is 22% as opposed to 78% to stay. Meaning that it's not very likely that there will be a Brexit unless the stay side monumentally mess up in the remaining few weeks of the campaign.
Quote from: yellowcard on May 31, 2016, 11:14:31 PM
Based on bookies odds the current likelihood of a vote to leave is 22% as opposed to 78% to stay. Meaning that it's not very likely that there will be a Brexit unless the stay side monumentally mess up in the remaining few weeks of the campaign.
Sterling dropped rapidly today when an adverse poll came out.
Brexit woukd be a tragedy. The UK needs economic reform, not Brexit.
http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/top-stories/corby-man-forced-to-abandon-mum-s-body-in-funeral-parlour-1-7408149
Quote from: seafoid on June 01, 2016, 08:42:29 PM
http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/top-stories/corby-man-forced-to-abandon-mum-s-body-in-funeral-parlour-1-7408149
I'm not sure what this has to do with Brexit, but it is a clear sign that England is a foreign country.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2016, 08:56:57 PM
Quote from: dec on May 31, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.
And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.
If someone travels from France to the UK they need to go through a checkpoint. If they go to Ireland they need to go through a checkpoint. From the UK they can travel freely to Ireland and vice versa.
In the event of a brexit what changes?
Quote from: LeoMc on June 01, 2016, 10:14:13 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2016, 08:56:57 PM
Quote from: dec on May 31, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 28, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.
This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.
And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.
If someone travels from France to the UK they need to go through a checkpoint. If they go to Ireland they need to go through a checkpoint. From the UK they can travel freely to Ireland and vice versa.
In the event of a brexit what changes?
I am betting nothing. If there is a technical hitch in the short term, it will be fixed quickly.
Quote from: LeoMc on June 01, 2016, 10:14:13 PM
If someone travels from France to the UK they need to go through a checkpoint. If they go to Ireland they need to go through a checkpoint. From the UK they can travel freely to Ireland and vice versa.
In the event of a brexit what changes?
What changes is that the UK decides that all Romanians need a visa, as too many of them are visiting as tourists and working illegally. So the Romanians fly to Dublin and head up to Larne.
What changes it that Ireland is sharing information with the UK, and the EU is not likely to be happy with sharing information with a no EU country on EU citizens travelling within the EU .
Of course the UK might sight up to EFTA and have movement of people anyway, but if they do that it is hardly worth the trouble of all this palaver.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b2a04094-27dc-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde.html
There are two unions whose fortunes rest on the outcome of the June 23 referendum. If Britain chooses Brexit the consequences will be serious, though probably not terminal, for the 27 remaining members of Europe's union. Germany and France are doubtless thinking hard about how best to underscore the cohesion of the rest of the EU. The second union — that of the nations of the United Kingdom — would be at greater risk from the centrifugal forces of a Leave vote.
The Outs have become the voice of strident English nationalism. The Conservative-led Leave campaign has all but abandoned the considered case for quitting the EU to throw in its lot with the populists of Nigel Farage's UK Independence party. The shared message is anti-immigrant, anti-establishment, anti-intellectual and anti-just about anything you care to think of. Call it project anger.
Whatever the overall outcome, the nations and regions of the UK will not vote as one. A glance at the geography of British opinion suggests that three areas are all but certain to back maintaining the present relationship with Europe. London, Northern Ireland and Scotland all show clear pro-European majorities. Wales is harder to call.
London's continental tilt is one of self-description. The capital has thrived as a global city, welcoming workers and migrants from across Europe and the world. London is France's sixth-largest city, welcoming up to 300,000 French citizens. It offers a second — and sometimes a first — home to Italians, Poles, Spanish, Portuguese and many others, as well as to those arriving from more distant shores.
The city is comfortable in its diversity. The recent mayoral election saw the Conservative candidate Zac Goldsmith wage a shamefully Islamophobic campaign. Londoners turned out in record numbers to back Sadiq Khan, a British-born Muslim.
Shared membership of the EU was integral to the success of the British and Irish governments in coaxing nationalists and unionists towards peace
The capital has none of the self-consciously starched Englishness of the affluent, Brexit-leaning home counties. And though London includes pockets of considerable poverty, they lack the ethnic grievance apparent in the poor towns dotted along southern England's eastern coast. My guess is that, confronted with the choice, most Londoners would apply visa controls to visitors from its native (mostly white) hinterlands before shutting off the flow of Polish doctors and Indian engineers.
Northern Ireland, where recent polls have pointed towards a big majority in favour of Remain, has different concerns. As for many things, Europe is viewed through at least two sets of lenses. Broadly speaking, the Catholic, mainly nationalist community is overwhelmingly European in its outlook. Protestant unionists are more evenly divided, with polls suggesting a bias towards Brexit. Overall, the province will vote to remain.
A UK-wide Brexit vote that wrenched Scotland out of the EU against its will would be a gift to pro-independence nationalists
A UK-wide vote to sunder ties with Brussels would destabilise a part of the UK still bearing the scars of sectarian violence. Shared membership of the EU was integral to the success of the British and Irish governments in coaxing nationalists and unionists towards peace. Rising prosperity in the north has been built on an open border with the Republic and, of course, on generous grants and investment incentives from Brussels.
Brexit would transform an invisible frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic into the external border between the UK and the EU. The UK's departure from the single market and the imposition of immigration curbs would require the return of cross-border checks on people and trade. And should Scotland press again for independence, how long would it be before the English began to see Northern Ireland as an unwelcome economic burden? This is the sort of reasoning that has persuaded the government of Gibraltar to throw its weight behind the pro-European side.
More video
Euroscepticism has never really taken root in Scotland, perhaps because of its association with the English nationalists on the Tory right. Mr Farage's Ukip has made only limited headway. So, like London and Northern Ireland, Scotland seems assured of a sizeable pro-European majority. A UK-wide Brexit vote that wrenched Scotland out of the EU against its will would be a gift to pro-independence nationalists.
None of the mitigating forces suggest voting Leave is remotely a risk worth contemplating
After failing to win an independence vote in 2014, the governing Scottish National party suffered a setback in last year's elections to the Edinburgh parliament. It lost its overall majority and with it the authority to call another independence referendum. But Britain's departure from Europe would re-energise the argument. The prospect of a Scotland shackled to an England that had thrown up barricades against the continent would make erstwhile unionists think again.
So they should. The case for the UK union is much the same as that for UK membership of the EU: by pooling sovereignty, nations increase their capacity to act effectively. If England left the EU it would make eminent sense for Scotland to swap one union for another.
It is too soon to speak of an independent London, though looking beyond Brexit it is not hard to see the capital demanding much greater autonomy. What does seem clear is that a Leave vote would intensify the political fragmentation of the UK union. Without Europe, the Brits may decide, Britain looks a much less attractive proposition.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/99e23cba-27eb-11e6-8ba3-cdd781d02d89.html
Sir, I do not want to play into the fears of citizens or patriots. Europe is a superb utopia, a grand plan that has managed to keep conflicts at bay for decades. No politician — whatever the country or the party — can afford to play with it. And to be honest, I am quite irritated by David Cameron's manoeuvre to serve some selfish career plans. Europe should make us humble — we are building history, like some founding fathers before us.
Europe is not about cutting away or entrenching yourself. It is about joining, underpinning, embracing and leading by example. You have to know where you stand when it comes to the European project. If, by the actions or inertness of one, we never know which way the wind is blowing, it's the whole foundation that tumbles. For two years the UK prime minister has imposed his referendum on 500m people, for two years Europe has stalled.
Let's be clear. It is also our fault, all of us. We should take responsibility and not scapegoat someone else — even Mr Cameron. The French engine backfired and is tired. The German engine is full steam ahead — while a German Europe is in the interest of no one, not even Germany. In a nutshell, we failed when it comes to living up to the dream.
Facts are twisted by politicians and the media to such an extent that, whatever the outcome, we'll be losing as Europeans. Britain stays in — a bitter taste will prevail. Should a Brexit happen, we'll waste two years tearing each other apart, like in a nasty divorce, instead of building things.
That's a key topic, in my view. The terms of an exit will be tough. Don't expect the EU to be a wet noodle. EU members will be unanimous about the UK paying the price of treachery. German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble was crystal clear on that point; continental business leaders are clear (Letters, May 31); I am clear as well.
This will come on top of Scotland, on top of the City, on top of the UK accounting for 78 per cent of EU foreign exchange trading. Some might call it a threat. It's not, these are stubborn and mechanistic facts.
I do hope the UK will stay in. As a European citizen, how could I wish otherwise? Britain sailed the oceans, was at the forefront of the industrial revolution, built an empire and dismantled it in an ordered manner. And today, to be an islander would be synonymous with withdrawal? Nay. On Trafalgar Square in London, Lord Nelson stands guard. And although Trafalgar was a stinging defeat for France, I am quite happy the admiral stands there as a reminder of the daring glory you keep building in the open.
Maurice Lévy
Chief Executive Officer,
I think Guardian readers are fairly convinced.
(http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/43ae05fc-2829-11e6-8ba3-cdd781d02d89.img)
Quote from: yellowcard on May 31, 2016, 11:14:31 PM
Based on bookies odds the current likelihood of a vote to leave is 22% as opposed to 78% to stay. Meaning that it's not very likely that there will be a Brexit unless the stay side monumentally mess up in the remaining few weeks of the campaign.
Polls know fvck all....this will be close
Quote from: armaghniac on June 04, 2016, 02:13:04 AM
I think Guardian readers are fairly convinced.
(http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/43ae05fc-2829-11e6-8ba3-cdd781d02d89.img)
That reminds me of this classic scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M)
Quote from: muppet on June 04, 2016, 02:31:27 PM
That reminds me of this classic scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M)
nah, you are just paying homage to my posting this link last week in the newspapers thread ;)
Nonetheless, with such a set of influential supporters, you have to imagine that even if they somehow managed to pass this that there would be huge public support for a Swiss/Norway style strong links with the EU.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 04, 2016, 02:40:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 04, 2016, 02:31:27 PM
That reminds me of this classic scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M)
nah, you are just paying homage to my posting this link last week in the newspapers thread ;)
Nonetheless, with such a set of influential supporters, you have to imagine that even if they somehow managed to pass this that there would be huge public support for a Swiss/Norway style strong links with the EU.
I have been posting quotes etc from that particular classic for a long time ;):
Quote from: muppet on February 12, 2009, 05:13:47 PM
Stole this idea from another site
To lighten the mood here are some quotes from the superb Yes Minister/Prime Minister:
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Prime Minister, in government, a clarification is not to make things clear. It's to *put* oneself in the clear.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Politicians like to panic. They need activity; it's their substitute for achievement!
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Surveillance is an indispensable weapon in the battle against organized crime.
James Hacker: You're not describing politicians as organized crime?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: No... well, disorganized crime too of course.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: We really have to get the minister to climb up the flagpole and nail his trousers to the mast.
Bernard Woolley: Don't you mean nail the flag to the mast?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: No, nail his trousers to the mast, Bernard. That way he can't climb down again.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Bernard, Ministers should never know more than they need to know. Then they can't tell anyone. Like secret agents, they could be captured and tortured.
Bernard Woolley: You mean by terrorists?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: By the BBC, Bernard.
James Hacker: Elbows: the most important weapon in a politician's army.
Annie Hacker: Other than integrity!
James Hacker: Integrity?
[bursts out laughing]
James Hacker: So when this next comes up at Question Time, you want me to tell Parliament that it's their fault that the Civil Service is too big?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: But it is the truth, Minister.
James Hacker: I don't want the truth. I want something I can tell Parliament!
In the context of the present thread
https://vimeo.com/85914510
The Eurosausage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzeDZtx3wUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzeDZtx3wUw)
Brexit is the UK version of Trump. It attracts a similar demographic. BoJo is a Lidl version Trump.