Nothing beats the sight of a Tipperary jersey to get the Galway lads whining about past injustices! :o
I think Tipperary are going better than last year and should beat Galway by about 6 points.
What's the word on Paudie Maher? Is he ready to go? How are the corner backs?
im sure we all remember that interview saying that Galway having only one forward was "f**king bullshit" ;D
BUT, really it is all down to Canning. it all depends on what supply he gets and what he does with it, the other forwards wont be good enough to get over Tipp without Canning shining on the day. cant see past Tipp for the win.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 11, 2015, 10:20:56 AM
What's the word on Paudie Maher? Is he ready to go? How are the corner backs?
All very quiet down here,Think everyone should be fit and hopefully raring to go,will be a hard one to win.Tipp will have to hit the ground running,and no room for blaming the 6 week lay off
Quote from: paddyoslabs on August 11, 2015, 12:00:48 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 11, 2015, 10:20:56 AM
What's the word on Paudie Maher? Is he ready to go? How are the corner backs?
All very quiet down here,Think everyone should be fit and hopefully raring to go,will be a hard one to win.Tipp will have to hit the ground running,and no room for blaming the 6 week lay off
Yeah, I'm actually in Newport, despite the user name. I've been away so I'm not sure how the fitness news is. I agree, this one is dodgy. Galway are very dangerous. I don't think they'll get the room they got against Cork, that Glynn goal was criminal from a Cork point of view, but they are a team that can really hurt you if they are on song.
yeah huge game for us,lose and we wont win Liam for a while.Team very quiet this year,nothing on the media about them,thats good to see,seem to have a real focus this year.hope they will be focused at 4pm sunday
I agree. This team needed a Munster title and it got that. it really needs to beat Kilkenny again in a final, so this is a big game and is a very dangerous game. The preparation does seem to be very quiet, very focused. Hopefully that will stand to them.
Surely to fúck this Tipp team of artisans and thoroughbreds will be putting 15 plus points on the Mollockers from Galway.
(C) Premier Emporer
Quote from: johnneycool on August 11, 2015, 01:14:07 PM
Surely to fúck this Tipp team of artisans and thoroughbreds will be putting 15 plus points on the Mollockers from Galway.
(C) Premier Emporer
Both teams can cause an upset against Kilkenny, but can these teams put together 2 good games in a row? Kilkenny didn't really get out of 2nd gear for most parts against Waterford, they got the goal and kept the 4 point cushion for most of the match without really working too hard, doubled up on the FF and kept them at bay... so they have plenty in reserve come the final.. Galway have always struggled to put two good performances in a row and Tipp sometimes go into a lull in a game and allow the opposition into the game before pulling away ... should be a cracking game, anyone going is getting good value with the 2 minor games and the senior game.
Really don't care who wins, but feel that the best final pairings would be Tipp V Kilkenny
I hope we see a good, close game on Sunday after a disappointing championship and reckon we have a good chance of this as both teams play attacking hurling and have strong forwards who can put up big scores. Tipperary have had a long break since the Munster final and this has affected Munster teams before. Galway have been impressive sofar particularly v Dublin in the replay and Cork. It's a hard one to call but would favour Galway slightly.
both sets of forwards are very good,but I think Tipps back are slightly better than Galways.which in the end might give us the edge,Galway certainly wont get the space cork gave them,Tipp by 3/4 points
Quote from: paddyoslabs on August 13, 2015, 11:37:16 AM
both sets of forwards are very good,but I think Tipps back are slightly better than Galways.which in the end might give us the edge,Galway certainly wont get the space cork gave them,Tipp by 3/4 points
In general play I'd agree that Tipps backs are better, but I think in the air, not so good, so expect a bit of an aerial bombardment especially around the two wing back positions for Flynn and co, and edge of the square where Joe may be deployed a bit more than he normally resides.
I'd expect to see the Tipp midfielders try run through the centre of the Galway defence where big Tannion wouldn't be the best at covering the ground, and I'd say they too will avoid him from their puckouts or clearances as he likes to come onto a high ball rather than be moved sideways or back facing his own goals. He'll play deep anyway to reduce the space for Callanan to operate in.
Galway can win this one and they'll believe that they can. They'll need to get a goal or two as I can see Tipp get some up the other end. Goes without saying, but Joe will need to trouble the score board from open play more than he has to date.
Tipp will be hungry as well for another rattle at a weaker Kilkenny so I hope its a good game, sorely lacking so far this year..
Really looking forward to this game. Winners will win AI imvho.
Tipped Tipp (pun intended) at beginning of year to win it out but I have been really impressed with Galway this year. A steeliness in them with their annual disaster of game behind them.
Think Galway will win.
Btw, great value on Sunday with 3 games on the card for those with the energy to sit through them all.
Being a Galway man it's good to see them trying until the final whistle. While they were being out played against Kilkenny they hung in and didn't drop the heads like a lot of previous Galway teams. Unfortunately I don't think the skill levels of a few of them are what they should be and the forwards don't seem to work as a unit. Tipp have the better hurlers and should win but hopefully we wire in to them early and often. Tipp would be windy enough and will always give u a chance. Good to see Noel McGrath back on the panel. A class hurler.
Quote from: mikehunt on August 14, 2015, 11:48:47 AM
Being a Galway man it's good to see them trying until the final whistle. While they were being out played against Kilkenny they hung in and didn't drop the heads like a lot of previous Galway teams. Unfortunately I don't think the skill levels of a few of them are what they should be and the forwards don't seem to work as a unit. Tipp have the better hurlers and should win but hopefully we wire in to them early and often. Tipp would be windy enough and will always give u a chance. Good to see Noel McGrath back on the panel. A class hurler.
some good points there mike,but how can you say tipp are windy,Tipp are the only team too go toe to toe with kilkenny since 2009,Granted ye drew with them in 12.My point is a windy team would never last against the cats,speaking to kilkenny people over the years,they will say tipp are the only team they really fear in an all-Ireland,Galway are a fine team,but one good win v a very poor cork wont guarantee glory.Your right its great to see Noel Mcgrath back.up the premier
Quote from: paddyoslabs on August 14, 2015, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: mikehunt on August 14, 2015, 11:48:47 AM
Being a Galway man it's good to see them trying until the final whistle. While they were being out played against Kilkenny they hung in and didn't drop the heads like a lot of previous Galway teams. Unfortunately I don't think the skill levels of a few of them are what they should be and the forwards don't seem to work as a unit. Tipp have the better hurlers and should win but hopefully we wire in to them early and often. Tipp would be windy enough and will always give u a chance. Good to see Noel McGrath back on the panel. A class hurler.
some good points there mike,but how can you say tipp are windy,Tipp are the only team too go toe to toe with kilkenny since 2009,Granted ye drew with them in 12.My point is a windy team would never last against the cats,speaking to kilkenny people over the years,they will say tipp are the only team they really fear in an all-Ireland,Galway are a fine team,but one good win v a very poor cork wont guarantee glory.Your right its great to see Noel Mcgrath back.up the premier
With the quality Tipp have ye should be winning more. On paper your hurlers are as good or if not better than Kilkenny especially in the forward line. The one ye did win was against a Kilkenny side that suffered major injury blows coming up to and in the final. Galway would prob have won the All-Ireland in 2012 if Shefflin came off injured after 10 minutes. Galway give Kilkenny a game from time to time. Same as ye, we drew and lost the replay last year. A win, draw and loss against them in 2012.
My one bit of hope for Sunday comes from how ye let a woeful Limerick team back in after half time this year and the fact that Waterford were always there or thereabouts despite having no forwards. I don't read anything in to the win over Cork in fact i thought Galway made very hard work of it. While we have Joe we have hope. Our other forwards especially the 2 new lads tend to go missing for large spells of games. If we lose we'll default to blaming Denton.
jesus mike,john Denton,remember it well,my late bro in law,a galway man got some mileage out of Denton.In fairness mike 2010 tipp would of won regardless of king Henry going off,it was just tipps day,Agree tipp can go asleep during games,but iam banking on the players respect for O Shea.they really love the guy and so want to win an all-ireland for him,
Tipp to win by 5 or 6 points
Tipp by 3 is my prediction. Bubbles MOM. That galway half back line is hard to get through but i think tipp will have a plan and their forwards will come out a bit better than galway forwards.
Anyone hear the preview of the match by "morgan freeman" on gift grub this morning? Was very good!
marty Morrisey trying his utmost to ruin a great game. what an Ahole
More in this game in first 15 minutes than there has been for most of last weeks game
Quote from: joemamas on August 16, 2015, 04:14:08 PM
marty Morrisey trying his utmost to ruin a great game. what an Ahole
Yeah, sickens me every time he is on the mike, cannot abide listening to him.
That's mad.
The commentators and everyone watching at home can see a pull across the back, but because the officials didn't see it, no punishment.
Quote from: muppet on August 16, 2015, 04:30:34 PM
That's mad.
The commentators and everyone watching at home can see a pull across the back, but because the officials didn't see it, no punishment.
I watched it twice still couldn't make it out... You can't blame the officials ffs
Somebody gag Marty Morrissey ffs
Good game. Galway deserve to be in front.
Cracking match so far because of excitement and intensity but plenty of sloppiness from both sets of forwards. Some very poor wides and balls dropped short - Joe would want to sort out his radar. Galway have worked very, very hard to only be a point up.
Quote from: muppet on August 16, 2015, 04:30:34 PM
That's mad.
The commentators and everyone watching at home can see a pull across the back, but because the officials didn't see it, no punishment.
From the footage I saw, I don't think you can clearly see a pull. Perhaps a flick with a loose hurl. Donnellan has previous though.
First real game of hurling played this year. Don't mind Marty too much, beats having my Sunday ruined by the notorious comic duo of Huge Ones and Very much so.
Great match. Fair play Galway I hope they go on and win the All Ireland now.
That was feckin class.
That was something else. Wow.
Delighted for Anthony Cunningham. Maybe this is the year.
Cracking game in the end but Christ Galway did their best to lose it with some of their wild and erratic shooting, which was a huge letdown considering how hard they worked, especially Whelan and Mannion. Joe's shooting boots left at home two days in a row.
Not that I wanted Tipp to win or anything, but thought for a minute that Noel McGrath's point was going to win it which would have been an absolutely fantastic story.
Think it's time to do something about the cynicism in hurling. Pull down on Callanan for a certain goal would've put them in the driving seat for the last ten. The pull down even managed to hurt Callanan and left him largely redundant for the remainder of the game, did he even win a catch after that?
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2015, 05:43:23 PM
Think it's time to do something about the cynicism in hurling. Pull down on Callanan for a certain goal would've put them in the driving seat for the last ten. The pull down even managed to hurt Callanan and left him largely redundant for the remainder of the game, did he even win a catch after that?
The player was booked and penalty given... Only goalkeeper on line ffs... Would you prefer him shot??
Most exciting game since the drawn AI final in 2013. Class
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 16, 2015, 05:49:06 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2015, 05:43:23 PM
Think it's time to do something about the cynicism in hurling. Pull down on Callanan for a certain goal would've put them in the driving seat for the last ten. The pull down even managed to hurt Callanan and left him largely redundant for the remainder of the game, did he even win a catch after that?
The player was booked and penalty given... Only goalkeeper on line ffs... Would you prefer him shot??
No, I'd like everyone to"forget about him as far as he's a man".
Brilliant game. Well done Galway, they deserved it. On top in most areas. Can't believe Cunningham left the #4 on Callanan for so long and he almost paid for it. Best of luck to them in the final. Disappointing for Tipp but they'll be back, and the story of the day might be Noel McGrath's return to IC hurling.
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2015, 05:53:43 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 16, 2015, 05:49:06 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2015, 05:43:23 PM
Think it's time to do something about the cynicism in hurling. Pull down on Callanan for a certain goal would've put them in the driving seat for the last ten. The pull down even managed to hurt Callanan and left him largely redundant for the remainder of the game, did he even win a catch after that?
The player was booked and penalty given... Only goalkeeper on line ffs... Would you prefer him shot??
No, I'd like everyone to"forget about him as far as he's a man".
Him Scoring 3-9 was probably Tipps biggest problem in this match... No one else shouldering the scores... Poor spread of scored...
Anyways serious game , Kilkenny to win this year again
Those last 10 minutes have knocked a few months of my life. Holy jaysus. Sure you wouldn't have it any other way.
Some balls in that Galway team, came back every time Tipp got a goal & uncharacteristcally used the ball well in the last couple of attacks.
They will be a huge challenge to Kilkenny on that form today
Quote from: Minder on August 16, 2015, 06:52:02 PM
Some balls in that Galway team, came back every time Tipp got a goal & uncharacteristcally used the ball well in the last couple of attacks.
They will be a huge challenge to Kilkenny on that form today
Having characteristically failed to in the couple before that! ;)
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 16, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
Those last 10 minutes have knocked a few months of my life. Holy jaysus. Sure you wouldn't have it any other way.
Those sort of moments are magic! It's hard to get ones head together after them!
Fair play to Galway, they never give up and always able to go back up the pitch and respond with a score. Love to see them won an All Ireland. I'll settle for a good close game. That spear tackle would make Brian O'Driscoll wince....
Wow. Where do you start to describe that spectacle today ?
Well done Galway. Commiserations to Tipp.
Every time Tipp scored a goal Galway just kept coming back and refused to go away.
Bring on the final.
Galways fitness & conditioning very impressive, they seemed to win most of the 50/50 balls & were hitting ferociously hard in the tackle
Could this be the year the two biggest 'Chokers' of the GAA world finally put to end to the their respective famines?
An mbeidh Craobh na hÉireann ar ais i nGaillimh i mbliana? Tá súil agam go mbeidh
Awesome
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 16, 2015, 04:34:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 16, 2015, 04:30:34 PM
That's mad.
The commentators and everyone watching at home can see a pull across the back, but because the officials didn't see it, no punishment.
I watched it twice still couldn't make it out... You can't blame the officials ffs
I wasn't blaming the officials! The info was available but it can't be given to the officials, I should have added that.
Quote from: muppet on August 16, 2015, 09:30:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 16, 2015, 04:34:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 16, 2015, 04:30:34 PM
That's mad.
The commentators and everyone watching at home can see a pull across the back, but because the officials didn't see it, no punishment.
I watched it twice still couldn't make it out... You can't blame the officials ffs
I wasn't blaming the officials! The info was available but it can't be given to the officials, I should have added that.
Was it though?? I never seen anything later but from both times they showed it I didn't see anything conclusive did you?? So what way would the referee get that info? Via RTE? Referee didn't go to umpires either so I'm guessing the linesman seen what happened and that was that was that..
Decided late enough in to the week I might head to this game. Great game for the neutral. Thought Galway struggled a little in the first half with nerves their composure let them down a bit but were fantastic to keep coming back at Tipp after each goal. Noel McGrath coming on got a hell of an applause from all supporters.
Quote from: gerrykeegan on August 16, 2015, 10:42:02 PM
Decided late enough in to the week I might head to this game. Great game for the neutral. Thought Galway struggled a little in the first half with nerves their composure let them down a bit but were fantastic to keep coming back at Tipp after each goal. Noel McGrath coming on got a hell of an applause from all supporters.
I thought his point was going to win it.. would have been some story.
Any Kilkenny people I know are all very happy to be playing Galway now and not Tipp.
Hope Galway hammer them but I think KK will win.
Well done Galway.............. by far the better team and should imo anyway have won by 4 or 5. Delighted for Cunningham....... wouldn't have been pleasant for him if they had lost.
Still trying to fathom out the Callinan/Mannion duel. Either Cunningham had no faith in the Galway subs or was happy to leave one man get a roasting while the other backs were getting on top in their own individual battles.
Btw, there is no bandwagon that can match the Galway hurlers when they get to an AIF. Will be close to 50,000 Galway people at the final, for the most of them the first time to see Galway play since ................. eh.................. the last All Ireland final.
Think Galway will win it now.
The RTE commentary annoyed me no end. Bit too forced in telling us how great the game was. Imo anyway
Yea, the football crowd tend to follow the hurlers when they get to AIFs.
Quote from: laoislad on August 16, 2015, 11:04:06 PM
Quote from: gerrykeegan on August 16, 2015, 10:42:02 PM
Decided late enough in to the week I might head to this game. Great game for the neutral. Thought Galway struggled a little in the first half with nerves their composure let them down a bit but were fantastic to keep coming back at Tipp after each goal. Noel McGrath coming on got a hell of an applause from all supporters.
I thought his point was going to win it.. would have been some story.
Any Kilkenny people I know are all very happy to be playing Galway now and not Tipp.
Hope Galway hammer them but I think KK will win.
Galway are the Mayo footballers of Hurling. They always have a big game or two in them in any given season. They are the dream team to meet in an AI final, simply because they have a lorry load of doubt they have to rid themselves of before a ball is thrown in. But hey you can only keep trying and one of these days.............. ;D
a thrilling game! Great for the neutral, but any tipp or galway people must have been gathered around the defibrillators!!
I said before hand i wanted tipp to win as it would make a better AI final. I might have been wrong on that. But we'll have to wait and see. I just dont 'trust' galway! All through the match i thought tipp were gona get there and that galway would fade away, but they didnt and absolutely battled til the final whistle!
Can they do it all again against kk? Im not sure. I think if it had been a draw, tipps forwards would not be that bad again and tipp would have won the replay. They just disappeared after 25 minutes, apart from callanan of course. Possibly being hard on galway but im not convinced by them yet. Tipp had a great chance of a goal before the penalty, cant remember who it was, could have been bubbles, he hit his shot straight at the keeper and it was blocked. If that had gone in like it should have, i think it would have tipped the scales in favour of tipp.
They will need to keep joe on the edge of the square and get him on the ball against kk. A few ifs and buts here i know but its up to galway now to prove any doubters wrong. And i hope they do. They've lost the last 5 AI finals they've been in, hopefully it wont be 6 come September.
They deserved their win today anyway, hope the AI final is as exciting as today!
We took two buses of youngsters down to that game yesterday, was I regretting that during the second minor game, as they were in and out of the shop, bog, you name it, but when the senior game started, right from the start they were transfixed and none moved for either 35 minutes of the halves.
Fantastic game throughout yesterday with the big crowd involved from the get go creating a real atmosphere to behold.
On the Mannion/Callanan tussles, Mannion was hung out to dry by his fellow defenders as the spaces in the first half in particular were enormous and it didn't take good balls in to find Callanan. You could see Tannion gesturing to the sidelines about whether to stay deep of go out the field with his man when Brendan Maher was trying to drag him out, more often than not, he went out the field and Callanan reaped the rewards. On his two second half goals, I can never understand lads who're up against a lad who's game is catching not doing their utmost to prevent the catch, a big flail at a good catcher like Callanan is a waste of time, push the hand away or whatever and allow a fellow defender or keeper to clear the thing, job done. JJ Delaney was a master of it, and he was a great catcher himself.
In saying that Callanan is as good a hurler going at the minute, if he's windy, I'd like some of the other Tipp forwards to be as windy as him as he made himself available for every ball going time and time again, shipped all the punishment coming his way and went again.
TBH, Galway were playing the better hurling, but the Tipp goals were like punches to the guts, but every time Tipp got the goal which you'd thought would have killed off Galway, the Galway lads went up the field and tacked on two points to kill the impact of the goals. They'd a few goal chances themselves in the first half in particular with Joe going on a fantastic run down the Cusack side only to over cook his pass to Donnellan, but IMHO young Whelan had bust his balls to get to the edge of the 21 and was the better option. Another sloppy pass later killed another opportunity.
In saying that, Barry is a very underrated fullback, always just doing enough with a flick or positioning himself well to be in the right position and whilst he did give an errant pass later on I thought he did well for Tipp.
The penalty Joe took was poor, hit neither high or low or with any great power and big Gleeson had positioned himself off centre to ensure his weaker side (the side Joe went for) was narrower.
A big shout out to Andy Smyth and David Burke as they got in a power of work, Smith was a busted flush before the end, but he put in some graft and got in some timely tackles just before half time as it looked like Tipp were getting a bit of traction. Burke was on some amount of ball over the 70 minutes and made good use of it.
Roll on the final, Kilkenny will be favourites, but if Galway keep the distance they'll test the Kilkenny backs a lot more than any forward unit has to date and may just get some joy.
Jesus - still getting tingles when I think of that game yesterday.
Fantastic stuff - hope Galway haven't left their best game behind now as Kilkenny will be a different proposition.
Roll on the AIF.
Mixed feelings for the final id love Galway to win it but ive money riding on a KK victory.
Some match yesterday, disappointed I didn't think to head down to it.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 16, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
Those last 10 minutes have knocked a few months of my life. Holy jaysus. Sure you wouldn't have it any other way.
One thing I took from our League win this year was that I would have it another way. Winning it pulling up was just great. Anyway, well done to Galway, absolutely delighted for ye. Here's hoping ye bag the ultimate prize.
Would love to see Galway win it but you'd have to worry about them against KK, they dominated large parts of that game yesterday and could very easily have lost it.
I wonder was Callanan a bit shook after the knock to the head he took for the penalty, would someone else have been better off taking it? Easy say that after he doesn't get the goal from it I suppose
well done Galway,great gutsy show,huge improvement from last year in thurles.Great game also,we will have to regroup and bring in some new blood for next year,Tipp will bounce back from this I hope.best of luck to Galway
Would love to see galway win the final but think they will need to shape up a bti tactically. The slowness of moving / changing on Callinan was pretty bad and most frees they were dropping into the danger area were caught by Paudie Maher - the man Tipp brought back to deal with it. I thought they should have dealt with that too. That said they played very well and look like they *might* match Kilkenny's intensity on yesterday's showing but with how they played yesterday they should have won by a lot more.
Galway's main issues of late was putting back to back good performances.... They would need to lift it another gear and cut out son of the wides and dropped shots to keeper... And regardless of the amount of points they scored yesterday they will need 2 goals and keep Kilkenny to 2 goals or less to win... If TJ is marking the same player I'd expect the same scoreline from TJ...
Makes for a cracking final... Oh and Galway need to start on front foot. Very nervy yesterday early doors
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 17, 2015, 03:48:12 PM
Galway's main issues of late was putting back to back good performances.... They would need to lift it another gear and cut out son of the wides and dropped shots to keeper... And regardless of the amount of points they scored yesterday they will need 2 goals and keep Kilkenny to 2 goals or less to win... If TJ is marking the same player I'd expect the same scoreline from TJ...
Makes for a cracking final... Oh and Galway need to start on front foot. Very nervy yesterday early doors
One thing of note about Galway yesterday was their size. I'd say most (other than Mannion on Callanan) were bigger than their opposite opponent and had a bit of pace about them especially in the forwards.
I still think Joey Holden can be got at if they can isolate him one on one near his own square. He'd the benefit of a free Paul Murphy the last day out, if Murphy can be kept busy then there's something to be gained there IMO. In Eoin Murphy, Kilkenny have the best all round keeper about, whose outfield excursions with club and Waterford IT stand to him when he needs to sweep up for his defence.
This current Kilkenny team are still very good, but they're not invincible.
Is the penalty for throwing the hurl a straight red? Saw it happen at the weekend and have seen it happen a few times in recent weeks during big games when players are through shooting for goal and the defender chucks the hurl at them.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 18, 2015, 09:26:29 AM
Is the penalty for throwing the hurl a straight red? Saw it happen at the weekend and have seen it happen a few times in recent weeks during big games when players are through shooting for goal and the defender chucks the hurl at them.
This is one of these unwritten things it seems in these big inter county games, a player can launch his hurl at an attacker and try to interfere with his shot as a last ditch effort. As long as the forward a) scores and b) isnt actually struck/ injured by the thrown hurl, it seems to be fair game.
Try it in a club game and you will soon see the cards flying.
Not sure of the rules in hurling but was Canning lucky not to get the line after about 7 or 8 mins for hitting a Tipp player in the face with his stick??
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 18, 2015, 12:23:41 PM
Not sure of the rules in hurling but was Canning lucky not to get the line after about 7 or 8 mins for hitting a Tipp player in the face with his stick??
accidental
there has to be intent
Accidental can be a red if it's deemed wild. However there's no way that was really a wild pull. Still a yellow and he was probably relieved it was a yellow. Would have been a terrible sending off though, and would have ruined the game.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 18, 2015, 02:12:39 PM
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 18, 2015, 12:23:41 PM
Not sure of the rules in hurling but was Canning lucky not to get the line after about 7 or 8 mins for hitting a Tipp player in the face with his stick??
accidental
there has to be intent
Don't think intent comes into it?
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 18, 2015, 02:17:26 PM
Accidental can be a red if it's deemed wild. However there's no way that was really a wild pull. Still a yellow and he was probably relieved it was a yellow. Would have been a terrible sending off though, and would have ruined the game.
http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/official_guides/2015%20Official%20Guide%20-%20Part%202.pdf
Category III Infractions5.17 To strike or attempt to strike an opponent with a hurley, with minimal force.
PENALTY FOR THE ABOVE FOULS -
(i) Order offender off.Category IV Infractions
5.26 To strike an opponent with a hurley, either with force or causing injury.
PENALTY FOR THE ABOVE FOULS –
(i) Order offender off.I may be wrong but my reading of this is that since the Tipp player required treatment then it's clearly a case of 5.26 and therefore a straight red for Canning?? AZ in hindsight it might have spoiled the game but do we excuse players red cards if it might spoil the game??
It was a red. The ref copped out.
I think in that case we'd have 100 sendings off every weekend. Loads of lads get struck with the hurley on knuckles, shins etc. For a sending off in reality it has to be deliberate, or willfully wild.
It was careless, bordering on the reckless. You don't see 100 instances of that every weekend.
Ah come on now. It was a little bit careless, yes, but there was no great force in it. Just because it was on the facemask made it look worse. I guarantee you there were a lot of lads getting struck with a hurley with minimal force on Sunday, and maybe a bit more than minimal.
I don't know who you are trying to convince here...
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
It was a red. The ref copped out.
Never a red - Cyril Donnellan on the other hand can was a very lucky lad that his pull wasnt copped by the officials................
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:51:27 PM
I don't know who you are trying to convince here...
Me either :)
Quote from: GaillimhIarthair on August 18, 2015, 03:56:31 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:36:17 PM
It was a red. The ref copped out.
Never a red - Cyril Donnellan on the other hand can was a very lucky lad that his pull wasnt copped by the officials................
Yes, now that was striking or attempting to strike.
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 18, 2015, 12:23:41 PM
Not sure of the rules in hurling but was Canning lucky not to get the line after about 7 or 8 mins for hitting a Tipp player in the face with his stick??
To be fair to him he was trying to flick the ball away as it was up in the air but it was caught just before he connected. I think it would have been a pretty harsh red to be honest even though it was a wee bit reckless.
Cyril was lucky however as that was definitely a strike even though it was more a petulant flick of the hurl rather than an outright wallop. If it had been seen I think he would have got the line.
While the Galway lads are in da house, positive vibe up there? Looked like a great turnout.
I don't think Canning was deliberately trying to hurt him and he held his hands up immediately and didn't react to Paudie Maher trying to ruffle him up over it which probably saved him. However, wasn't the first time Joe "accidentally" managed to flick something other than the sliotar.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 18, 2015, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 18, 2015, 12:23:41 PM
Not sure of the rules in hurling but was Canning lucky not to get the line after about 7 or 8 mins for hitting a Tipp player in the face with his stick??
To be fair to him he was trying to flick the ball away as it was up in the air but it was caught just before he connected. I think it would have been a pretty harsh red to be honest even though it was a wee bit reckless.
Cyril was lucky however as that was definitely a strike even though it was more a petulant flick of the hurl rather than an outright wallop. If it had been seen I think he would have got the line.
Spot on. The Canning incident was a yellow and Donnellan should have seen red.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 18, 2015, 04:19:28 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 18, 2015, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 18, 2015, 12:23:41 PM
Not sure of the rules in hurling but was Canning lucky not to get the line after about 7 or 8 mins for hitting a Tipp player in the face with his stick??
To be fair to him he was trying to flick the ball away as it was up in the air but it was caught just before he connected. I think it would have been a pretty harsh red to be honest even though it was a wee bit reckless.
Cyril was lucky however as that was definitely a strike even though it was more a petulant flick of the hurl rather than an outright wallop. If it had been seen I think he would have got the line.
Spot on. The Canning incident was a yellow and Donnellan should have seen red.
It's a pain in the arse when those feckin rules get in the way of a good game.
Never mind Canning, John Hanbury should have been red carded for that tackle on Callanan when he gave away the penalty.
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 04:06:41 PM
While the Galway lads are in da house, positive vibe up there? Looked like a great turnout.
Yup, the vibe is good BUT last Sunday will count for nothing unless we beat KK in 3 weeks time. We have lost enough friggin finals in the last 20 years so we won't be losing the run of ourselves in the build up.
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 16, 2015, 11:21:09 PM
Quote from: laoislad on August 16, 2015, 11:04:06 PM
Quote from: gerrykeegan on August 16, 2015, 10:42:02 PM
Decided late enough in to the week I might head to this game. Great game for the neutral. Thought Galway struggled a little in the first half with nerves their composure let them down a bit but were fantastic to keep coming back at Tipp after each goal. Noel McGrath coming on got a hell of an applause from all supporters.
I thought his point was going to win it.. would have been some story.
Any Kilkenny people I know are all very happy to be playing Galway now and not Tipp.
Hope Galway hammer them but I think KK will win.
Galway are the Mayo footballers of Hurling. They always have a big game or two in them in any given season. They are the dream team to meet in an AI final, simply because they have a lorry load of doubt they have to rid themselves of before a ball is thrown in. But hey you can only keep trying and one of these days.............. ;D
Spot on. Actually a worse record than Mayo too....
But hope springs eternal.
I'm 48 and in my lifetime kk have won 20, lost 9 and drawn 1 final. Galway have won 3, lost 10 and drawn 1. Sobering stats to keep us grounded for the next 3 weeks!!
Quote from: finbar o tool on August 18, 2015, 05:11:04 PM
Never mind Canning, John Hanbury should have been red carded for that tackle on Callanan when he gave away the penalty.
That was brutal. Shoulda been sent off alright
Quote from: finbar o tool on August 18, 2015, 05:11:04 PM
Never mind Canning, John Hanbury should have been red carded for that tackle on Callanan when he gave away the penalty.
It just looked like a normal drag down at first viewing. Nobody was calling for a red card when it happened. Only in replay could you see Callanan land on his head. And to be fair I doubt Hanbury meant to land him on his head. It was just an awkward fall.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/hurling-the-loser-when-apologists-rule-348840.html
good article here...
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:41:05 PM
It was careless, bordering on the reckless. You don't see 100 instances of that every weekend.
Its nit a red, that question was put to the head of referees when I was at a conference at Croke park
It was like some form of wrestling / judo move.
That aside the papers try to focus on the negatives here and there were little to none in that match but they try and pull that one out. Typical of media.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 18, 2015, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:41:05 PM
It was careless, bordering on the reckless. You don't see 100 instances of that every weekend.
Its nit a red, that question was put to the head of referees when I was at a conference at Croke park
Who, Pat McAneany?
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 18, 2015, 03:04:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 18, 2015, 02:17:26 PM
Accidental can be a red if it's deemed wild. However there's no way that was really a wild pull. Still a yellow and he was probably relieved it was a yellow. Would have been a terrible sending off though, and would have ruined the game.
http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/official_guides/2015%20Official%20Guide%20-%20Part%202.pdf
Category III Infractions
5.17 To strike or attempt to strike an opponent with a hurley, with minimal force.
PENALTY FOR THE ABOVE FOULS -
(i) Order offender off.
Category IV Infractions
5.26 To strike an opponent with a hurley, either with force or causing injury.
PENALTY FOR THE ABOVE FOULS –
(i) Order offender off.
I may be wrong but my reading of this is that since the Tipp player required treatment then it's clearly a case of 5.26 and therefore a straight red for Canning?? AZ in hindsight it might have spoiled the game but do we excuse players red cards if it might spoil the game??
Thats the joys of these rules, its how they are interpreted.
Joe attempted to play the ball and caught Barry around the faceguard and yes he 'struck' and opponent, but at the same time Andy Smith was struck by a Tipp lad as Smith came in on the blind side whilst the Tipp lad was trying to strike the ball. Both were struck as per the ruling, but IMO Kelly was right, yellow for Joe for being off in the timing and nothing for the Tipp lad as he knew SFA about Smith coming in on him.
FWIW, Kelly refereed that game very well on Sunday. Yes, you could say Donnellan would have deserved a red for an off the ball strike, but none of the officials saw it.
As for Hanbury, he did drag Callanan down, penalty no doubt, red would have been harsh as the Tipp defender who dragged Donnellan down in the first half penalty call didn't get red carded either. He was consistent.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 18, 2015, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:41:05 PM
It was careless, bordering on the reckless. You don't see 100 instances of that every weekend.
Its nit a red, that question was put to the head of referees when I was at a conference at Croke park
What was the question?
Quote from: deiseach on August 19, 2015, 09:49:28 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 18, 2015, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:41:05 PM
It was careless, bordering on the reckless. You don't see 100 instances of that every weekend.
Its nit a red, that question was put to the head of referees when I was at a conference at Croke park
What was the question?
He showed us a video clip of an incident where players stick was thrown while attacker was shooting on goal, he asked question what is the foul here?? He told us over carrying !! I said what about the hurly being thrown he said as long as it wasn't dangerous it was a booking only
That's not the incident we were talking about. We're on about Joe Canning's flick that caught James Barry in the facemask.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 19, 2015, 11:23:35 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 19, 2015, 09:49:28 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 18, 2015, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 18, 2015, 03:41:05 PM
It was careless, bordering on the reckless. You don't see 100 instances of that every weekend.
Its nit a red, that question was put to the head of referees when I was at a conference at Croke park
What was the question?
He showed us a video clip of an incident where players stick was thrown while attacker was shooting on goal, he asked question what is the foul here?? He told us over carrying !! I said what about the hurly being thrown he said as long as it wasn't dangerous it was a booking only
Excellent, the Mayo full backline will be armed with at least 6 hurleys each for the Dublin game.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2015, 11:27:24 PM
That's not the incident we were talking about. We're on about Joe Canning's flick that caught James Barry in the facemask.
That wasn't a red at any level...
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 19, 2015, 11:47:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2015, 11:27:24 PM
That's not the incident we were talking about. We're on about Joe Canning's flick that caught James Barry in the facemask.
That wasn't a red at any level...
Big Magic got a red for that earlier on this summer in the Antrim league. Who's head of the referees in Antrim, you might like to have a word with them?
Quote from: johnneycool on August 20, 2015, 08:02:50 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 19, 2015, 11:47:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2015, 11:27:24 PM
That's not the incident we were talking about. We're on about Joe Canning's flick that caught James Barry in the facemask.
That wasn't a red at any level...
Big Magic got a red for that earlier on this summer in the Antrim league. Who's head of the referees in Antrim, you might like to have a word with them?
If the ball pops up and its a genuine attempt to flick it away (And we all know if it's genuine or dirt) then it's a yellow at best, obviously if there is malice in it then its a red.. again every incident is separate and needs to be looked at on its own
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 10:13:41 AM
If the ball pops up and its a genuine attempt to flick it away (And we all know if it's genuine or dirt) then it's a yellow at best, obviously if there is malice in it then its a red.. again every incident is separate and needs to be looked at on its own
So when we hear all the time that intent doesn't come into it, that's not true?
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 10:21:52 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 10:13:41 AM
If the ball pops up and its a genuine attempt to flick it away (And we all know if it's genuine or dirt) then it's a yellow at best, obviously if there is malice in it then its a red.. again every incident is separate and needs to be looked at on its own
So when we hear all the time that intent doesn't come into it, that's not true?
Who says that? To strike, or attempt to strike, implies intent. How can you 'attempt' to strike if you don't mean it? :)
Players get 'struck' with the hurley in every single game you see. Whether that be as a result of a follow through, an attempted tackle or whatever. They don't get sent off.
The ones who get sent off are either sent off because they are 'wild' and unduly dangerous or careless (in which case intent is moot) or who are seen to strike deliberately, which is definitely gauged on intent.
If Refs didn't try to assess intent, we'd have a lot more red cards.
Milltown Row2 says it. It seems 'dirt' and 'malice' are part of the determination even though there's nothing about it in the rulebook. Are these things referees are told in their training classes? It would be useful to know.
I'd agree "to attempt to strike" implies intent, but "to strike with the hurley" doesn't. However Canning didn't "attempt to strike" the Tipp player, he struck him whether he intended to or not. A bit like the Sean Cavanagh rugby tackle, it's no defence that this occurs hundreds of times around the country every week. Looking solely at the Canning incident, in the context in which it occurred, to me at least, it was a red.
I understand what you are saying, but all I will say is that if an unintentional flick of the hurley, which connects with an opponent, is a red card then we'll have an awful lot more.
In your scenario PB, what would happen here? I'm in possession, I run out and clear the ball. In doing so an opponent tries to block me down, and I strike him on top of the helmet in the act of clearing the ball.
What should the referee do?
(PS I'm fully aware this is not what JC did, but it is technically striking someone with the hurley).
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 20, 2015, 10:41:01 AM
I'd agree "to attempt to strike" implies intent, but "to strike with the hurley" doesn't. However Canning didn't "attempt to strike" the Tipp player, he struck him whether he intended to or not. A bit like the Sean Cavanagh rugby tackle, it's no defence that this occurs hundreds of times around the country every week. Looking solely at the Canning incident, in the context in which it occurred, to me at least, it was a red.
So are you saying that there was no 'intent' on Cannings part to hit Barry, but it was still a red card as he struck him?
Have any of ye ever read the rule book?
Malice isn't mentioned in it
With the mandatory faceguards I think players nowadays are more careless with the use of the hurley whereas back in the day (can't believe I am saying that) players were imo anyway more conscious of keeping the hurley away from an opponent's face.
Blocking etc is also more reckless now with the faceguards.
Faceguards, btw are the best imo anyway change to hurling
Quote from: johnneycool on August 20, 2015, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 20, 2015, 10:41:01 AM
I'd agree "to attempt to strike" implies intent, but "to strike with the hurley" doesn't. However Canning didn't "attempt to strike" the Tipp player, he struck him whether he intended to or not. A bit like the Sean Cavanagh rugby tackle, it's no defence that this occurs hundreds of times around the country every week. Looking solely at the Canning incident, in the context in which it occurred, to me at least, it was a red.
So are you saying that there was no 'intent' on Cannings part to hit Barry, but it was still a red card as he struck him?
That's what the rules say as I read them. The thing is, I don't know whether Canning intended to strike Barry...only Joe knows that and I think that's why intent isn't mentioned in the rules. I don't think he meant to hit him but he did hit him.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 20, 2015, 11:34:14 AM
Have any of ye ever read the rule book?
Malice isn't mentioned in it
I've read it, yeah. Because it's so obvious that the rulebook is 100% watertight. :)
The rulebook says striking with a hurley is a red card. If I clear the ball, and in my follow through, I strike a player on the helmet, as part of my normal follow through, what does the rulebook say?
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 20, 2015, 11:41:04 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 20, 2015, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 20, 2015, 10:41:01 AM
I'd agree "to attempt to strike" implies intent, but "to strike with the hurley" doesn't. However Canning didn't "attempt to strike" the Tipp player, he struck him whether he intended to or not. A bit like the Sean Cavanagh rugby tackle, it's no defence that this occurs hundreds of times around the country every week. Looking solely at the Canning incident, in the context in which it occurred, to me at least, it was a red.
So are you saying that there was no 'intent' on Cannings part to hit Barry, but it was still a red card as he struck him?
That's what the rules say as I read them. The thing is, I don't know whether Canning intended to strike Barry...only Joe knows that and I think that's why intent isn't mentioned in the rules. I don't think he meant to hit him but he did hit him.
So what about my scenario PB? I've struck with the hurley.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2015, 11:43:18 AM
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 20, 2015, 11:41:04 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 20, 2015, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 20, 2015, 10:41:01 AM
I'd agree "to attempt to strike" implies intent, but "to strike with the hurley" doesn't. However Canning didn't "attempt to strike" the Tipp player, he struck him whether he intended to or not. A bit like the Sean Cavanagh rugby tackle, it's no defence that this occurs hundreds of times around the country every week. Looking solely at the Canning incident, in the context in which it occurred, to me at least, it was a red.
So are you saying that there was no 'intent' on Cannings part to hit Barry, but it was still a red card as he struck him?
That's what the rules say as I read them. The thing is, I don't know whether Canning intended to strike Barry...only Joe knows that and I think that's why intent isn't mentioned in the rules. I don't think he meant to hit him but he did hit him.
So what about my scenario PB? I've struck with the hurley.
That's my point with the Andy Smith tackle. He knowingly put himself in harms way ( I know Barry didn't) and the Tipp lad struck him with the hurl.
Should the Tipp lad have got the line as by the letter of the rule book he struck with the hurl??
It's not as clear cut as some are making out.
lads, everyone knows the difference at this stage between striking a person with intent and when its accidental, the refs use their common sense in most cases to know the difference. end of.
Quote from: finbar o tool on August 20, 2015, 12:33:46 PM
lads, everyone knows the difference at this stage between striking a person with intent and when its accidental, the refs use their common sense in most cases to know the difference. end of.
Sactly.
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
Milltown Row2 says it. It seems 'dirt' and 'malice' are part of the determination even though there's nothing about it in the rulebook. Are these things referees are told in their training classes? It would be useful to know.
Go to one of these training classes sure and you'll be sussed... Having played for many years and refereed the past 6/7 years I think I can make a judgement on intent/dirt/malice whether these word are in the rule book is irrelevant because if we applied the 'striking' rule as stated we'd have maybe 5/6 players red carded every game.. player kicks ball away and other player comes in slightly late and gets player on foot, red card?
now if you're just a keyboard/armchair warrior then you'd find it hard to work out the difference ;)
The striking rule is straight forward in hurling. If a Tipp man is hit, the perp is given a pat on the back. A just and fair rule imo.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
Milltown Row2 says it. It seems 'dirt' and 'malice' are part of the determination even though there's nothing about it in the rulebook. Are these things referees are told in their training classes? It would be useful to know.
Go to one of these training classes sure and you'll be sussed... Having played for many years and refereed the past 6/7 years I think I can make a judgement on intent/dirt/malice whether these word are in the rule book is irrelevant because if we applied the 'striking' rule as stated we'd have maybe 5/6 players red carded every game.. player kicks ball away and other player comes in slightly late and gets player on foot, red card?
now if you're just a keyboard/armchair warrior then you'd find it hard to work out the difference ;)
Playing the man, not the ball ::)
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 02:40:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
Milltown Row2 says it. It seems 'dirt' and 'malice' are part of the determination even though there's nothing about it in the rulebook. Are these things referees are told in their training classes? It would be useful to know.
Go to one of these training classes sure and you'll be sussed... Having played for many years and refereed the past 6/7 years I think I can make a judgement on intent/dirt/malice whether these word are in the rule book is irrelevant because if we applied the 'striking' rule as stated we'd have maybe 5/6 players red carded every game.. player kicks ball away and other player comes in slightly late and gets player on foot, red card?
now if you're just a keyboard/armchair warrior then you'd find it hard to work out the difference ;)
Playing the man, not the ball ::)
Red Card!!!!
Ahh jaysus AZ ....no way is it a red card ... it wasn't as if he grabbed his helmet :o
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2015, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 02:40:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
Milltown Row2 says it. It seems 'dirt' and 'malice' are part of the determination even though there's nothing about it in the rulebook. Are these things referees are told in their training classes? It would be useful to know.
Go to one of these training classes sure and you'll be sussed... Having played for many years and refereed the past 6/7 years I think I can make a judgement on intent/dirt/malice whether these word are in the rule book is irrelevant because if we applied the 'striking' rule as stated we'd have maybe 5/6 players red carded every game.. player kicks ball away and other player comes in slightly late and gets player on foot, red card?
now if you're just a keyboard/armchair warrior then you'd find it hard to work out the difference ;)
Playing the man, not the ball ::)
Red Card!!!!
Look I'm all for cleaning up the game issuing red cards as and when they are required, but if referees didn't use their own experiences and common sense then the game would loose its appeal, kids will walk away if half their summers will be sitting on the sidelines cause they struck a foot during the game!!
Quote from: theskull1 on August 20, 2015, 02:50:53 PM
Ahh jaysus AZ ....no way is it a red card ... it wasn't as if he grabbed his helmet :o
Hey I was waiting on that happening on Monday night ffs!! you'd have been all over me ::)
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 02:57:13 PM
Look I'm all for cleaning up the game issuing red cards as and when they are required, but if referees didn't use their own experiences and common sense then the game would loose its appeal, kids will walk away if half their summers will be sitting on the sidelines cause they struck a foot during the game!!
And now we have arguing from authority. Never mind.
Deiseach, I know we've been discussing 1 particular incident, but what is your view about that striking rule? Do you think that every time someone strikes with a hurley, even in my scenario, they should be red carded?
If not, where do you draw the line?
I'm not being argumentative, I'm just trying to get a feel for why you think Joe Canning deserved a red card for what we all seem to think was accidental, or at worst a bit careless.
I think it was extremely careless, to the point of being reckless. I don't buy the idea that every game has myriad examples of players being struck. There is plenty of contact all right, but the contact almost always falls well short of a strike. To me, the incident was akin to the red card that Sam Warburton received from Alain Rolland in the 2011 World Cup semi-final. It was not malicious and no harm was done, but players have a duty of care to their opponent, whether it be tackling a guy in the air or swinging a hurley around the body, and Warburton/Canning breached that duty of care. The only surefire way to ensure this kind of thing is nipped in the bud is supporting referees who make these hard decisions. For his troubles, Rolland got abused by all and sundry for 'ruining the game as a spectacle' and I have no doubt the same would have happened to Barry Kelly had he red-carded Canning. On a general level, I can accept that referees will be issued with guidelines regarding what constitutes a strike. Knowing what those guidelines are would be good for everyone. I would be less accepting of the idea that they would be told to rely on experience or 'common sense', something that is far from common in this world.
Define a strike for me so. Because the rule just says 'strike'. It doesn't (as you say) differentiate between forms of striking. So when you say the contact falls well short of a strike, what do you mean?
As for the JC incident, lets park that for a moment because it may cloud the issue. You and I obviously have different opinions on whether it was careless or reckless. I go with the former, at worst, and you seem to be trending towards the latter. I can accept that if you believe it was reckless, then a red card would be a valid opinion on it. In fact our parameters for a red card would be similar, except I wouldn't call what he did 'reckless'. If it were reckless, I too would think a red card was understandable.
So I'm more interested in what you are defining as a strike. No more than yourself, I watch a lot of hurling. And every game I've seen or played in, some lad has been 'struck' by a hurley. Either on his hand when trying to catch the ball, or on the knuckles in the act of striking/blocking or whatever. Sure even when I look at my own knuckles I can see scars from where I've been 'struck'. What's the difference? I think the nub of what I'm interested in understanding is this statement "There is plenty of contact all right, but the contact almost always falls well short of a strike."
theres a fine line sometimes between a strike and contact. thats where the ref MUST use experience/common sense to make a decision. as we all know, things are not always black and white on the field! i dont envy a referees job.
anyway, moving on!!!..... :-X
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 03:21:56 PM
I think it was extremely careless, to the point of being reckless. I don't buy the idea that every game has myriad examples of players being struck. There is plenty of contact all right, but the contact almost always falls well short of a strike. To me, the incident was akin to the red card that Sam Warburton received from Alain Rolland in the 2011 World Cup semi-final. It was not malicious and no harm was done, but players have a duty of care to their opponent, whether it be tackling a guy in the air or swinging a hurley around the body, and Warburton/Canning breached that duty of care. The only surefire way to ensure this kind of thing is nipped in the bud is supporting referees who make these hard decisions. For his troubles, Rolland got abused by all and sundry for 'ruining the game as a spectacle' and I have no doubt the same would have happened to Barry Kelly had he red-carded Canning. On a general level, I can accept that referees will be issued with guidelines regarding what constitutes a strike. Knowing what those guidelines are would be good for everyone. I would be less accepting of the idea that they would be told to rely on experience or 'common sense', something that is far from common in this world.
Grrrrrrrr. this is daft.. so referees shouldn't use common sense or experience then? feck!! look if you would like to know more about the rules/seminars/views or think tanks that go on with county boards and beyond then take up the whistle and try it... a lot of good men take time out to try and improve the standard of refereeing within all counties at all grades, yes we do have clampits that have a different view point on things but that goes for players abusing the rules and coaches who look to bend the rules when coaching kids ..
It's the job of the referee to enforce the rules as best he can, he won't always get it right but neither do the players. I hope that most referees enjoy the game, I know I do, refereed a div 3 game last night, while the quality wasn't great in parts, the fight and hunger to win the game was evident from the throw in, I enjoyed it and so did the players..
As for Sunday's game it will be remembered as being a cracking game and the best of the year, the JC incident didn't merit a red card
I don't see why we should park the JC question, that's at the heart of the discussion. I consider it a 'strike' because he was going for the ball and made absolutely no consideration for those around him and ended up hitting another player. The fact that it wasn't a full-blown clatter doesn't matter. He was only trying to poke the ball to get control of it. I could just as easily - and I will - ask you why that wasn't a strike. Was it that he didn't meant to make contact? That there was insufficient force? That because it was around the head, and therefore that bit more lurid, we must make allowance for it?
I'm reminded of the line that "experience is something you don't get until just after you need it" (Steven Wright, according to Google, which works for me). Everyone who has ever taken up a whistle had to referee a game for the first time. So while experience is grand in allowing you to quickly identify THAT scenario and reacting accordingly, I would still prefer to think that refereeing is applied from first principles.
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 03:53:00 PM
I don't see why we should park the JC question, that's at the heart of the discussion. I consider it a 'strike' because he was going for the ball and made absolutely no consideration for those around him and ended up hitting another player. The fact that it wasn't a full-blown clatter doesn't matter. He was only trying to poke the ball to get control of it. I could just as easily - and I will - ask you why that wasn't a strike. Was it that he didn't meant to make contact? That there was insufficient force? That because it was around the head, and therefore that bit more lurid, we must make allowance for it?
We park the JC question because we both see it as a strike. In your opinion it was reckless, thus a red card. In my opinion it was careless if anything and therefore yellow at most. So I understand where we differ there now.
However, you seem to be saying that EVERY strike is a red card, and I'm saying most 'strikes' in a normal game are not anything like red cards. You have said later on that there is 'contact' but not a lot of striking.
Therefore I'm curious as to what you define as a strike.
I should emphasis in all of this that I don't think it was an outrageously bad decision or anything like that. I said previously that Barry Kelly chickened out or words to that effect. That was wrong. Some decisions are obvious, some are not so obvious. But you have only have four options - red, yellow, free or play on. I thought it was a red but I wouldn't expect Barry Kelly to lose any sleep over it.
If I hit you on the knuckles as I try to hook you, is that a strike?
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:06:34 PM
I should emphasis in all of this that I don't think it was an outrageously bad decision or anything like that. I said previously that Barry Kelly chickened out or words to that effect. That was wrong. Some decisions are obvious, some are not so obvious. But you have only have four options - red, yellow, free or play on. I thought it was a red but I wouldn't expect Barry Kelly to lose any sleep over it.
I don't think you are being very unreasonable or anything, I'm just curious at what you call a strike. If you have the same definition as me (ie. deliberately or recklessly hitting or attempting to hit an opponent) then we are on the same wavelength, and just disagree about the nature of JC's incident. i.e. Accidental/Careless/Reckless.
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 03:53:00 PM
I consider it a 'strike' because he was going for the ball and made absolutely no consideration for those around him and ended up hitting another player. The fact that it wasn't a full-blown clatter doesn't matter.
this is the problem right here....
we WANT/NEED players to go for the ball with full commitment/passion/determination. thats what makes hurling so special!!
we cant tell lads, "go for that ball and keep your eye on it, but be careful not collide/hit the lad your marking"!!
what is it we/I were told when we were younger - "go in hard for the ball, if you stand back you'll get a belt!"
or what about a lad getting the hand nearly taken off him catching a ball without protecting his hand?! its his own fault! you couldn't give a red card for that!
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 03:59:18 PM
I'm reminded of the line that "experience is something you don't get until just after you need it" (Steven Wright, according to Google, which works for me). Everyone who has ever taken up a whistle had to referee a game for the first time. So while experience is grand in allowing you to quickly identify THAT scenario and reacting accordingly, I would still prefer to think that refereeing is applied from first principles.
Referee's aren't robots (I Googled that) famous quote by Who Gives a feck
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2015, 04:07:26 PM
If I hit you on the knuckles as I try to hook you, is that a strike?
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:06:34 PM
I should emphasis in all of this that I don't think it was an outrageously bad decision or anything like that. I said previously that Barry Kelly chickened out or words to that effect. That was wrong. Some decisions are obvious, some are not so obvious. But you have only have four options - red, yellow, free or play on. I thought it was a red but I wouldn't expect Barry Kelly to lose any sleep over it.
I don't think you are being very unreasonable or anything, I'm just curious at what you call a strike. If you have the same definition as me (ie. deliberately or recklessly hitting or attempting to hit an opponent) then we are on the same wavelength, and just disagree about the nature of JC's incident. i.e. Accidental/Careless/Reckless.
Are those words in the rule book? :o
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
it doesnt matter what is or isnt a strike, what matters is whether there was intent or not.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 04:11:37 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 20, 2015, 04:07:26 PM
If I hit you on the knuckles as I try to hook you, is that a strike?
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:06:34 PM
I should emphasis in all of this that I don't think it was an outrageously bad decision or anything like that. I said previously that Barry Kelly chickened out or words to that effect. That was wrong. Some decisions are obvious, some are not so obvious. But you have only have four options - red, yellow, free or play on. I thought it was a red but I wouldn't expect Barry Kelly to lose any sleep over it.
I don't think you are being very unreasonable or anything, I'm just curious at what you call a strike. If you have the same definition as me (ie. deliberately or recklessly hitting or attempting to hit an opponent) then we are on the same wavelength, and just disagree about the nature of JC's incident. i.e. Accidental/Careless/Reckless.
Are those words in the rule book? :o
No MR, they aren't, and that's my point. The ref has to interpret whether it was reckless or deliberate, and if so then it falls under a strike in my view.
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
To me, you literally strike something when you hit it. If I was to interpret the rulebook literally, then every single time anyone was 'struck' with a hurley, either intentionally or not, it would be a red card.
Obviously this is ridiculous, so, for the purposes of refereeing I (and I'm sure most refs as well) consider a strike to be a willful or reckless act whereby you strike or attempt to strike the opponent.
Therefore, even though JC's did strike, in the literal sense of the word, what he did was not what I would consider a strike in the rules sense of the word.
Quote from: finbar o tool on August 20, 2015, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
it doesnt matter what is or isnt a strike, what matters is whether there was intent or not.
Doesn't say that in the rulebook finbar, but that's my point. Referees automatically apply that standard to it, and that's why JCs was never a red card in my opinion.
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
Not a strike, striking the hand while player goes to catch ball, not even a foul providing he's hitting the catching hand and when the ball reaches hand at same time..... it's a strike if he pulls early though and only a yellow, same as when he misses the hand and comes down on helmet (mis-timed strike) providing he's watching the ball but, if he is standing back and draws a target on his helmet and then draws, then that's a red in my book
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
Not a strike, striking the hand while player goes to catch ball, not even a foul providing he's hitting the catching hand and when the ball reaches hand at same time..... it's a strike if he pulls early though and only a yellow, same as when he misses the hand and comes down on helmet (mis-timed strike) providing he's watching the ball but, if he is standing back and draws a target on his helmet and then draws, then that's a red in my book
Yes, I agree. But LITERALLY they are all 'strikes' with the hurley. That's why I'm saying a referee can't just say 'Did he (literally) strike?' He has to say did he deliberately or recklessly strike or attempt to strike his opponent.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
Not a strike, striking the hand while player goes to catch ball, not even a foul providing he's hitting the catching hand and when the ball reaches hand at same time..... it's a strike if he pulls early though and only a yellow, same as when he misses the hand and comes down on helmet (mis-timed strike) providing he's watching the ball but, if he is standing back and draws a target on his helmet and then draws, then that's a red in my book
Okay, that all makes sense, and I appreciate the explanation. It does strike (pun unintended) me as a recipe for getting away with some absolutely outrageous pulls, and I really think it's been a problem in recent times where so much is considered acceptable if it wasn't 'deliberate'. But I see your point.
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
Not a strike, striking the hand while player goes to catch ball, not even a foul providing he's hitting the catching hand and when the ball reaches hand at same time..... it's a strike if he pulls early though and only a yellow, same as when he misses the hand and comes down on helmet (mis-timed strike) providing he's watching the ball but, if he is standing back and draws a target on his helmet and then draws, then that's a red in my book
Okay, that all makes sense, and I appreciate the explanation. It does strike (pun unintended) me as a recipe for getting away with some absolutely outrageous pulls, and I really think it's been a problem in recent times where so much is considered acceptable if it wasn't 'deliberate'. But I see your point.
Everyone has a point on this and I've done senior championship where there are hundreds round a pitch trying to be a referee for the hour, either way youre a cnut!! so play ball ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 20, 2015, 04:26:20 PM
Everyone has a point on this and I've done senior championship where there are hundreds round a pitch trying to be a referee for the hour, either way youre a cnut!! so play ball ;D
Harsh but fair :P
Quote from: Canalman on August 20, 2015, 11:36:33 AM
With the mandatory faceguards I think players nowadays are more careless with the use of the hurley whereas back in the day (can't believe I am saying that) players were imo anyway more conscious of keeping the hurley away from an opponent's face.
Blocking etc is also more reckless now with the faceguards.
Faceguards, btw are the best imo anyway change to hurling
Most inter county faceguards are illegal as they have been altered.
Quote from: finbar o tool on August 20, 2015, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
it doesnt matter what is or isnt a strike, what matters is whether there was intent or not.
That's balls. Padraic Maher mangled Michael Rice's hand a few years ago. He did not intend to smash his hand to pieces but let loose with a wild, reckless one handed pull. No intent but deserving of a red card, in my opinion.
I think he meant to contact flesh with that pull gallsman
Quote from: theskull1 on August 22, 2015, 05:57:38 PM
I think he meant to contact flesh with that pull gallsman
Perhaps he did but despite my dislike of him, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Quote from: gallsman on August 22, 2015, 05:32:42 PM
Quote from: finbar o tool on August 20, 2015, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 20, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
I can't put a quantitative figure on what amounts to a strike. All I can do is look at a particular incident and say why I think that amounts to a strike, which I have done. Now can you explain why you think it's a strike, yet not a strike?
it doesnt matter what is or isnt a strike, what matters is whether there was intent or not.
That's balls. Padraic Maher mangled Michael Rice's hand a few years ago. He did not intend to smash his hand to pieces but let loose with a wild, reckless one handed pull. No intent but deserving of a red card, in my opinion.
He didn't intend to smash it to smitherings but was a wild pull and deserved a red
That's my point ;)
Absence of intent doesn't mean you get away with it.
Quote from: gallsman on August 22, 2015, 06:28:48 PM
That's my point ;)
Absence of intent doesn't mean you get away with it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4zzAIbUnhWw. If you watch that again he's just swinging wildly
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 22, 2015, 07:22:52 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 22, 2015, 06:28:48 PM
That's my point ;)
Absence of intent doesn't mean you get away with it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4zzAIbUnhWw. If you watch that again he's just swinging wildly
I know, I'm agreeing with you!