I haven't time to contribute, but I logged in to find out what people here think of the GAA's decision to back the GPA's pay-for-play agenda and was amazed to find no discussuion here.
What do people think?
Wouldn't be too sure that it has crossed the expenses/pay-for-play boundary just yet? A key criterion that would indicate pay-for-play would be the possibility of being paid different amounts with different counties, and that would be a different story.
Agree with Fear ón Srath Bán .
The scheme that is being proposed does not allow for bigger/more successful counties paying more to certain players, which is something that I would be opposed to.
And because of that, it does not make the possibility of transfers any more of a problem that they are already.
I don't have time , but:
They are to be paid for playing football/hurling = pay for play.
They get more money the more successful they are = players with successful counties make more.
When the GAA itself has been allowed absolutely no discussion on this issue (and when we can't even be allowed to know what's in the bid that went to the govt) there's not much point in having a discussion here!
Quote from: Turfsmoke on April 05, 2007, 09:38:30 AM
When the GAA itself has been allowed absolutely no discussion on this issue (and when we can't even be allowed to know what's in the bid that went to the govt) there's not much point in having a discussion here!
True, only when it's made fully public shall we know exactly what's involved, and as Nicky Brennan said yesterday, that's not exactly imminent:
In regards a timeline of when this system might come into place, a GPA statement added: "Both the GPA and the GAA anticipate, given the assurances afforded by Minister (John) O'Donoghue and An Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, that the joint proposal will now be rubberstamped in time for the current season." (Irish Times)
I don't want to comment until I know the full details. I'm suspicious about it though.
croke park shouldnt be opened up full time to soccer , rugby , cricket and tennis
QuoteI don't have time , but:
They are to be paid for playing football/hurling = pay for play.
They get more money the more successful they are = players with successful counties make more.
I don't have time either, but:
I agree.
Quote from: Hardy on April 05, 2007, 09:29:09 AM
1) They are to be paid for playing football/hurling = pay for play.
2) They get more money the more successful they are = players with successful counties make more.
1. Blurred distinction methinks, not black and white -- it's more a question of not being so much
out of pocket, as opposed to "making" money.
2. As 1, and players with more successful counties are more successful, so assuming that it's not about
making money (only covering expenses), there is just as much incentive to switch counties now as there would be then.
My time is more precious than Hardy's or AZ's, but:
Did Brennan not say it would be discussed at Congress in the next week or so?
Quote from: Billys Boots on April 05, 2007, 10:33:57 AM
My time is more precious than Hardy's or AZ's, but:
Did Brennan not say it would be discussed at Congress in the next week or so?
That will come after the reponse from John O'Donoghue I believe.
I must confess I've been up the walls at work and travelling to the UK a fair bit, so I've missed a few things, but this quote intrigues me
Quoteout of pocket
Is it only an expenses thing then? do they have to submit expenses? Or is it a fixed amount? Is there a different amount for Students as opposed to Self Employed like Farmers etc? How to they quantify 'out of pocket' for all the different social, economic and employment demographics that constitute GAA players today?
Are managers included? (Or is the illegal payments of managers being accepted as a nod and a wink?) They put in as much time as players. Selectors?
Not trying to be a smart-arse; I'm genuinely curious about the terms and conditions of this 'grant'.
Not sure about the mechanics AZ, we'll have to wait and see on that one, but the expenses vs profit will be the clincher!
Well, I suppose in it's basest form expenses would require receipts. I would be of the opinion that valid expenses, with receipts, should be paid in full and not capped at a grant level. If I'm driving to training, and the expenses are 50 cent a mile, for arguments sake, and I drive 4,000 miles in a year, I would expect €2000 recompense. Equally, if expenses include meals, bandages, injury treatments etc etc and I include receipts, I would expect payment even if this tops €2,500 or whatever the figure is.
Is this new grant to replace expense claims or an ADD ON?? I suspect the latter. If so, it gets very hard to quantify 'out of pocket'. And the example of students getting X thousand euro for playing GAA games is even more hard to justify as out of pocket expense.
(I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date)
QuoteIf I'm driving to training, and the expenses are 50 cent a mile, for arguments sake, and I drive 4,000 miles in a year, I would expect €2000 recompense.
And if I'm a club player and my clubmate who plays for the county gets this and I don't, what does that tell me about the egalitarian organisation with the amateur ethos that I used to think I belonged to?
Hardy,
it tells you this my royal friend,
You are a grain of sand on the back of a camel. whereas I (countyman) am the saddle that supports the fee paying tourists arse.
While you get brushed away to be replaced by countless other grains, I will be meticulously polished and cared for.
This is the word of the Capitalist.
Amen.
Quote from: Hardy on April 05, 2007, 11:05:32 AM
(I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date)
QuoteIf I'm driving to training, and the expenses are 50 cent a mile, for arguments sake, and I drive 4,000 miles in a year, I would expect €2000 recompense.
And if I'm a club player and my clubmate who plays for the county gets this and I don't, what does that tell me about the egalitarian organisation with the amateur ethos that I used to think I belonged to?
Potentially a
very slipperly slope, that must be handled, implemented, and administered with extreme caution, care and consideration. Or else it's goodbye GAA :'(
My time is more precious than Hardy, AZ and Billy's put together but:
QuoteYou are a grain of sand on the back of a camel. whereas I (countyman) am the saddle that supports the fee paying tourists arse.
While you get brushed away to be replaced by countless other grains, I will be meticulously polished and cared for.
This is the word of the Capitalist.
Amen.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
All great comedy is founded on the bitter truth.
8 team senior championships here we come.
The only money that can justifiably be given to an amateur sports person is that which replaces money that they have genuinely spent themselves in the pursuit of the the sport ie. genuinely incurred expenses.
The very nature of a grant suggests that you will recieve the payment if you meet a qualifying criteria ie. play at a certain standard or take part in a minimum amount of training or matches. Therefore if it's a grant it is linked to what you do and not what you have spent.
Any official payment that isn't repayment for incurred expenses will be the beginning of the end of amateur status and within 10 years we will have a much changed and poorer (not just financially) association.
Why does everyone (generalisation) in modern day Ireland want paid for everything they do?
Being on a day off, my time isn't worth a cent, but I agree with Hardy, AZ and the rest.
Quote from: uselessfootballerWhy does everyone (generalisation) in modern day Ireland want paid for everything they do?
Welcome to the Celtic Tiger, where you're only as worthwhile as the amount you earn.
Well as I live in the northern end of this wee island thankfully I haven't yet been overtaken by the Celtic Tiger way of thinking yet.
Up here the economy and general way of doing things is less Celtic Tiger and more Ulster-Scots Tabby Cat
I know nobody knows what's in the document yet, but where does this leave our Northern brethern?
Perhaps the new Executive will look after their "expenses" as well?
Quote from: Smokin Joe on April 05, 2007, 12:27:31 PM
I know nobody knows what's in the document yet, but where does this leave our Northern brethern?
Perhaps the new Executive will look after their "expenses" as well?
Believe it will apply across both jurisdictions equally, i.e., as administered centrally from Dublin.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2007, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on April 05, 2007, 12:27:31 PM
I know nobody knows what's in the document yet, but where does this leave our Northern brethern?
Perhaps the new Executive will look after their "expenses" as well?
Believe it will apply across both jurisdictions equally, i.e., as administered centrally from Dublin.
But surely the Irish government won't be giving grants to Northern Irish taxpayers.
Quote from: Smokin Joe on April 05, 2007, 12:33:57 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2007, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on April 05, 2007, 12:27:31 PM
I know nobody knows what's in the document yet, but where does this leave our Northern brethern?
Perhaps the new Executive will look after their "expenses" as well?
Believe it will apply across both jurisdictions equally, i.e., as administered centrally from Dublin.
But surely the Irish government won't be giving grants to Northern Irish taxpayers.
Not directly, but the GAA is not a 26-county organisation (regardless from where the money comes), unless you'd expect it to operate in complete contradiction to (and contravention of) its own constitution? :)
QuotePosted on: Today at 12:27:31 PMPosted by: Smokin Joe
Insert Quote
I know nobody knows what's in the document yet, but where does this leave our Northern brethern?
Perhaps the new Executive will look after their "expenses" as well?
Perhaps that is what Bertie Fish and Ian Mor were talking about yesterday when they met. Perhaps the devolved Government in Stormont has an amount set aside from its payment from Westminster and that is why the two incidents have coincided. Or maybe I am just talking bollix :P
Either way, it leaves a possible dangerous door ajar. No matter what way you look at it, grants or expenses are open to corruption. Fearglasmor, you say that we grains of sand in clubs are not worthy of being nurtured. Would you argue that a footballer in a weaker county commits anymore to his team and incur anymore expense than a top non county player from Crossmaglen or Ballyhale. For the guts of ten years I travelled 3 round trips of 130 miles per week 9 months of the year at least training and playing games. I got some expenses but never so much that I was not out of pocket. I never asked for any more either. Did I do any less than a hurler from Mayo to use an old analogy?
Will the revenue commissioners in the north accept the fact that these payments are for reimbursement of expenses and not subject to income tax?
Also, I would have thought that if government approve these payments, other codes like soccer & rugby will be asking for the same treatment.
Quote from: dublin15man on April 05, 2007, 01:54:56 PM
Will the revenue commissioners in the north accept the fact that these payments are for reimbursement of expenses and not subject to income tax?
I would imagine so, yes, which would be no different from what will apply in the 26.
have to say fellas i think the effort some of the senior club players put in these days is forgotten. the top ones in each county would be damn close in terms of the hours given to county teams. I accept it's not the same standard and they don't draw the crowds- but playing senior club football for a top club team is like a full-ime job in itself and i can't imagine it's a milion miles off the time put in by cunty players. I'm not suggesting club players getting anything- but i don't like this payment of players for one reason- the price always goes up -it's 5m this year -what will it be next year. I'm all for players getting all the expenses required. but i think most county teams overtrain anyway and a s aresult their clubs never see them .This is a dangerous precedent creating an elite band of players distinct from everybody else.
Quote from: INDIANA on April 05, 2007, 02:03:42 PM
have to say fellas i think the effort some of the senior club players put in these days is forgotten. the top ones in each county would be damn close in terms of the hours given to county teams. I accept it's not the same standard and they don't draw the crowds- but playing senior club football for a top club team is like a full-ime job in itself and i can't imagine it's a milion miles off the time put in by cunty players. I'm not suggesting club players getting anything- but i don't like this payment of players for one reason- the price always goes up -it's 5m this year -what will it be next year. I'm all for players getting all the expenses required. but i think most county teams overtrain anyway and a s aresult their clubs never see them .This is a dangerous precedent creating an elite band of players distinct from everybody else.
Understand, if it's the thin edge of a wedge (and wodge) it's an abomination.
It says something about how the tail is wagging the dog when you come on to a board like this, made up of GAA members from across the island, and it's hard to find a single person who thinks that any payment over and above reimbursement of expenses incurred is a good idea. We all believe that it will lead to less county teams, over playing, disgruntlement among club players and the general decline of our association, and yet to listen to the media, this was accepted by all as a good thing.
I'm not exactly an ideal member in that my living in Galway now means I'm on my third club in three seasons, but even so I'll be lobbying delegates from each of those clubs to fight this.
I don't think it will succeed but that will bring its own troubles.
This is my single biggest bug bear in the GAA at the moment and unfortunately it seems that lareg portions of our membership are totally apathetic to the problem.
This started when good GAA men turned a bling eye to the payment of county managers. Soon there was payment to managers and trainers etc etc. It is a simple logic that players would soon want a slice of the pie. The players argue, with some justification, that the amount of effort and time that it takes to play county football is serious. Our club game is completely dead in the water because county players have no opportunity to train with clubs etc..... This money is not for expenses because it will not be based on loss of earnings. How can a student have the same expenses as a self employed plumber etc.? This is the thin edge of the wedge, if this goes through in ten years time you wil have a situation where county players play for their clubs on the very odd occassion only.
I truly believe that the biggest problem is that the GPA is not representative of the inter county players. Compare their membership numbers when players had to pay their membership fees rather than get free membership to see that most members of the GPA are sheep.
I honestly believed that if the entire inter county playing population were polled and given the following choice you would get an interesting answer.
Would you rather recieve 50 euro a week for a nine month season (average) or have a reduced inter county season that gave you the opportunity to play for your club and have a proper rest.
I would wager that most would choose the second option. Our players are getting burnt out and our clubs sre getting pissed off. But things will never change because the GPA leadership want money and the GAA bosses in Croke Park want a long inter county season. End of story.
Unless the grass roots revolt or a few high profile players revolt then we will lose everything that makes the GAA special in a very short space of time.
From what ive read about the governments grant system, Inter county players will be getting €2,500 (£1700) a year. which isnt exactly spoiling them is it. But its something!!
I knew I heard the €2,500 figure somewhere. But what is it supposed to be? Recompense for out of pocket expense, above and beyond the normal expenses already available? That seems to be a shaggy dog story.
In my view it's basically giving players money they WOULDN'T OTHERWISE HAVE, for playing the GAA to a certain standard.
I can't say I like that idea, or the very thick wedge that might be behind the thin point. It'll be hard to argue the principal of pay for play is wrong, now that this 'grant' has been award for people who play GAA at inter-county level. It's a monetary award for reaching a certain standard.
Quote from: Smokin Joe on April 05, 2007, 12:33:57 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2007, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on April 05, 2007, 12:27:31 PM
I know nobody knows what's in the document yet, but where does this leave our Northern brethern?
Perhaps the new Executive will look after their "expenses" as well?
Believe it will apply across both jurisdictions equally, i.e., as administered centrally from Dublin.
But surely the Irish government won't be giving grants to Northern Irish taxpayers.
Asked Nickey Brennan about this yesterday and he quickly rubbished my question saying that the GAA is a 32 county organisation. This leads me to believe that the grants won't come in the form of tax credits or such but as something which resembles the current setup re mileage through the GAA.
My article from today's Irish News on the issue is below:
Northern players in line for an Irish grant
Gaelic Games
By Coilin Duffy
GAA players in the six counties will benefit from any grants system implemented by the Irish Government, Association President Nickey Brennan has confirmed.
Although the funding will come from the government in Dublin, this will not hamper players based in the north according to Brennan.
It had been believed that the grants may come in the form of tax relief, but now this seems unlikely following Brennan's comments.
"The GAA is a 32-county organisation as far as we are concerned, and any grants scheme will apply to county teams on the whole island, the border is not relevant in this case," Brennan said.
"The government of the south will supply the money for the whole 32 counties, it is not relevant to the administration in the north," he added.
The GAA and GPA each issued statements yesterday that both sides have submitted a proposal to the government in relation to player grants, and Brennan is satisfied with the progress that has been made.
"There have been discussions between the two bodies over a number of months now, and the proposals have now ended with a submission to the government in the next 24 hours.
"I'm happy it has got to this stage now and we now need to give time to the minister and his officials to clear the matter," Brennan said.
This news comes a year after the GPA held an emergency EGM in Portlaoise to ballot their members on the issue of player welfare grants.
"Perhaps they will need to seek some clarifications, which is there right if such is the case, and we look forward to dealing with them in relation to this.
"We are certainly not putting any time constraints on the minister. He has a heavy agenda and I'm sure his people will give consideration to this at the earliest possible time."
The president was happy with the negotiations involving all parties, but is keen to stress that at no time was professional status on the agenda.
"We have had a good negotiating team as have had the GPA, and we have to ensure that any issue surrounding grants did not compromise our amateur status, that was very important to us."
"Once the background was established quite quickly, we were able to move along and get an
agreement to submit to the government."
Brennan doesn't foresee that the allocation of player grants, in whatever format they take, will be hard to police, particularly when some players may only appear on county panels as subs in the National League for instance.
"We know life in the GAA is never clear-cut, but it is not beyond the ingenuity and wisdom of various officials to come up with a scheme to accommodate that, and I'm sure it will be the least of our concerns."
"We know we can come up with a scheme that is fair to all participants no matter how long they may or may not be on a county panel."
The news comes on the same day as the new Player Burnout Taskforce met last night at Croke Park under the chairmanship of Dr Pat O'Neill of Dublin.
Just read that the ladies are looking for an equal deal. Its only right that they get the same deal as everyone else.
Quote from: thejuice on April 05, 2007, 02:56:05 PM
From what ive read about the governments grant system, Inter county players will be getting €2,500 (£1700) a year. which isnt exactly spoiling them is it. But its something!!
If this is as well as current inter county expenses, with nothing for those at lesser levels, its certainly the start of something that may well prove impossible to stop.
Would be totaly against it.
Saw a preliminary proposal from the GPA a couple of months ago which may have been the proposal sent to O'Donohue. It read something like:
Senior Intercounty Football
E2,500 per player who takes part in the All-Ireland Football Championship = E2,400,000
Senior Intercounty Hurling
E2,500 per player who takes part in the McCarthy Cup = E900,000
E2,000 per player who takes part in the Ring Cup = E720,000
E1,500 per player who takes part in the Rackard Cup = E540,000
Potential problems for this would be players who are with the panel at the start of the season and who are dropped or have long term injuries. The one thing it may do is make managers pick their 30 panelists early in the season and stick with them. Distribution of grants will be coming from the individual boards. I cant see anything wrong with this as long as everything is managed well. As for the club players - it is an insentive for them to try and make a county panel the following season. In relation to students - they are very much so needy of this type of grant, as there time playing for their club, college and county hinders their chance of doing some part time work, which all their friends will be doing. Why would you deny a student E2,500 to help him out? A lot of the students dont have cars and cant claim mileage.
I think Im going to become a dual player next year :P
Whatever about the pro's and cons of paying players and the huge debate that will entail, im outraged that the taxpayer is footing this bill. How can we justify this?
Could you imagine the uproar if the Dept of Sport subsidised LoI or provincial rugby players? And this minister is being abused for being anti-Gaa?
Quote from: thejuice on April 05, 2007, 05:04:04 PM
Just read that the ladies are looking for an equal deal. Its only right that they get the same deal as everyone else.
Too right, I'll be interested to see if the ladies association take this further.
Quote from: highking on April 05, 2007, 11:01:32 PM
Saw a preliminary proposal from the GPA a couple of months ago which may have been the proposal sent to O'Donohue. It read something like:
Senior Intercounty Football
E2,500 per player who takes part in the All-Ireland Football Championship = E2,400,000
Senior Intercounty Hurling
E2,500 per player who takes part in the McCarthy Cup = E900,000
E2,000 per player who takes part in the Ring Cup = E720,000
E1,500 per player who takes part in the Rackard Cup = E540,000
Nothing for the Tommy Cooper Cup then !!!! :)
Quote from: highking on April 05, 2007, 11:01:32 PM
As for the club players - it is an insentive for them to try and make a county panel the following season. P
This line sums up how far the association is gone when people thinking that receiving money to play for your county will act as an incentive. What incentive should you need to play for your county???? Sweet mother of fcuk but we have lost the plot.
Quote from: dublinfella on April 06, 2007, 12:20:54 AM
Whatever about the pro's and cons of paying players and the huge debate that will entail, im outraged that the taxpayer is footing this bill. How can we justify this?
Could you imagine the uproar if the Dept of Sport subsidised LoI or provincial rugby players? And this minister is being abused for being anti-Gaa?
We can't - it's ridiculous. However I would imagine this was just electioneering on the part of O'Donoghue in that he never thought the GAA would agree to the principle. However don't take this for a pro-GAA move - it's anything but. This is a relatively cheap way of getting a load of headlines, bar stool pundits might take it as being a pro GAA move, but in actual fact all it is is just something that's going to leave the GAA no way back from. Then in five years time when this country is in the thrall of a recession, the winds of public opinion will be blowing elsewhere, these grants will be pulled, and the GPA will expect the GAA to carry on where the Government left off. Of course the GAA won't be able to afford it, so voila, you have amalgamated teams.
This is anti-GAA, anti-sense and anti-sport in general. He'll realise this when every half decent road bowler and darts player in the country looks for the same grant. Sadly we'll be too far gone by then.
Quote from: dublinfella on April 06, 2007, 12:20:54 AM
Whatever about the pro's and cons of paying players and the huge debate that will entail, im outraged that the taxpayer is footing this bill. How can we justify this?
Good question. Now all you have to do is find someone who is justifying it so you can ask them.
Quote from: deiseach on April 06, 2007, 05:59:09 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on April 06, 2007, 12:20:54 AM
Whatever about the pro's and cons of paying players and the huge debate that will entail, im outraged that the taxpayer is footing this bill. How can we justify this?
Good question. Now all you have to do is find someone who is justifying it so you can ask them.
Simple 5mil to players , Dublin V Meath will generate at least 20 for the Dublin economy , multiply that by the number of big games and the Tax payer is getting a great deal
Quote from: Gnevin on April 06, 2007, 08:34:58 PM
Simple 5mil to players , Dublin V Meath will generate at least 20 for the Dublin economy , multiply that by the number of big games and the Tax payer is getting a great deal
So the taxpayer is paying money for something that it was previously getting for nothing? Not what I'd call a "great deal".
It seems as if everyone has gone mad around here. Take a look at soccer and the Premiership. Look how many spoiled brats there are playing there yapping for more money and they are not worth the half of it. Now think if the players are paid in the GAA they are going to sink they're arm in over thr following years and keep asking for more. If we a re realistic the quality of soccer in the Premiership is quite poor and if the money comes to the GAA then we will head that direction.
Catch yourselves on!!!
By Paddy Hickey in the Indo.
ARMAGH star Kieran McGeeney would love to be able to train like Brian O'Driscoll.
That's why he's such a strong supporter of the proposed government-funded grants scheme for county players which would see recipients get sums up to a maximum of €2,500.
"If the grants scheme was in place, GAA players obviously wouldn't have the same luxury of full-time rugby and soccer players who don't have to hold down a day job," said McGeeney.
"But it would help players to fund various outgoings such as baby-sitting when going to training.
"There is no doubt but that GAA players are elite athletes who help to attract huge crowds each year, and I see no reason why players like Colm Cooper, Eoin Brosnan and Brian Cullen shouldn't receive some small compensation for all the effort and time they put in."
Donal O'Neill, the GPA's Commercial Director, also strongly defended the grants scheme for GAA players at yesterday's press conference to announce that former Kerry manager Jack O'Connor will be the new chairman of the Opel GPA awards football selection committee.
"GAA players are not eligible for government grants under the National Sports' Council carding scheme, so the scheme agreed between the government and the GAA is a fitting way to reward the players for their efforts," said O'Neill.
O'Neill said he knew nothing about a report that the government were going to renege on the revolutionary scheme. "As far as we are concerned the deal is still on unless we hear to the contrary."
What a role model McGeeney is for the GAA!!!!!!!!!!
Just how much did he get from Na Fianna anyway. ;)
QuoteARMAGH star Kieran McGeeney would love to be able to train like Brian O'Driscoll.
That's why he's such a strong supporter of the proposed government-funded grants scheme for county players which would see recipients get sums up to a maximum of €2,500.
Where is the sick bucket. And such poor journalism.
nobody asked him to play at that level-it was something he did volunatarily-if he didn't like it he should have packed it in. sharks like donal o neill won't be happy until the game goes professional.
Quote from: fearglasmor on April 12, 2007, 11:44:45 AM
By Paddy Hickey in the Indo.
ARMAGH star Kieran McGeeney would love to be able to train like Brian O'Driscoll.
That's why he's such a strong supporter of the proposed government-funded grants scheme for county players which would see recipients get sums up to a maximum of €2,500.
"But it would help players to fund various outgoings such as baby-sitting when going to training.
Yep i can just see an intercounty players few thousand euro grant going on "baby-sitting" fees !! I apologise for digressing but if a young Mc Geeney was told that when he made it as an intercounty player he would not get paid surely he would have packed it in there and then........
The day the GAA goes professional is the day it dies. FACT
What happens when this famous Tiger we have rolls over and dies? The Government will stop all non essential payments such as this. So what does the GPA do then? Can anyone find an anwer to this?
If this situation occurs will the GPA demand the payments be met by the GAA and taken out of gate recipts? If the GAA refuse will the GPA than go on strike?
Quote from: annie on April 12, 2007, 10:48:35 PM
The day the GAA goes professional is the day it dies. FACT
Please explain why...
Its survived nearly 20 years of nudge and wink professionalism ffs.
And while you are at it tell me what Jason Sherlock does for a living. Or for that matterSean óg and Colin Moran and the rest who have token jobs with sponsors.
The entire thing reminds me of the dying days of amateur rugby. There are professional GAA players, both full and part time, already. How many of us on this site did the american summer?
So just because some people are bending the rules, we should abandon the ideal and go officially professional? Should the state legalise murder because there are a few dozen murders every year?
You're right about one thing. There are similarities between the GAA and rugby pre-professionalism. Back then, rugby clubs thrived. Attendances were healthy and attendance money and all other accumulated resources went into supporting the club and the game. Now resources are centralised to feed the voracious appetites of the FOUR professional 'clubs' (one of them teetering on the brink of abolition) that the 'market' can sustain. Clubs are disappearing or amalgamating to survive and find that their main source of revenue is flogging tickets for the gigs of the commercial sports-entertainment business that has evolved from the "professionalisation" of what used to be a game.
AZOffaly's scenario for the future of a professional GAA, outlined in another thread, is exactly what we can expect when we start to legitimise pay to players, as it seems we're about to. Is that what we want?
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 08:03:27 AM
So just because some people are bending the rules, we should abandon the ideal and go officially professional? Should the state legalise murder because there are a few dozen murders every year?
You're right about one thing. There are similarities between the GAA and rugby pre-professionalism. Back then, rugby clubs thrived. Attendances were healthy and attendance money and all other accumulated resources went into supporting the club and the game. Now resources are centralised to feed the voracious appetites of the FOUR professional 'clubs' (one of them teetering on the brink of abolition) that the 'market' can sustain. Clubs are disappearing or amalgamating to survive and find that their main source of revenue is flogging tickets for the gigs of the commercial sports-entertainment business that has evolved from the "professionalisation" of what used to be a game.
AZOffaly's scenario for the future of a professional GAA, outlined in another thread, is exactly what we can expect when we start to legitimise pay to players, as it seems we're about to. Is that what we want?
I do my best to try to disagree with you as often as possible
Unfortunately that is a spot on post and I cant find fault.
We cannot go pro. We have seen the precedent. We couldnt be that stupid?
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 13, 2007, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 08:03:27 AM
We cannot go pro. We have seen the precedent. We couldnt be that stupid?
You would think so, but when the gaa's "civil service" see 80k people at a february league match I worry at what deluded thoughts might be going through their heads.
How else could "The GAA" sign up to this payment deal with the GPA ? Should this not require approval at congress, will it be discussed ?
QuoteAZOffaly's scenario for the future of a professional GAA, outlined in another thread, is exactly what we can expect when we start to legitimise pay to players, as it seems we're about to. Is that what we want?
It's not what we want and it must be blocked. From where I'm standing a rule change is likely to be required and that would entail a special congress being called. I'm curious as to why the GAA has yet to outline in full the planned scheme. My gut tells me that the deal has been agreed in principle with the Govt and the Greedy Players Association with the proviso that it must be supported by the members. Brennan and the lads know full well that it'll be beaten but it won't be Croke Park stopping it - it will be the grass roots. And that is clever.
I hope you're right, Seanie, but I have my doubts. That's nearly too clever even for a GAA administration that's as clever as a fox who has just been appointed professor of cunning at Cambridge university (with apologies to Blackadder). I'd be afraid that the coyness is because they're organising a fait accompli that can't be overturned by the members/congress. Also, I'm not convinced that a decision by the government to give grants to GAA players would need a rule change if, for instance, it was in the form of an annual payment to the GPA (which already receives funds from all sorts of people) to be disbursed as it sees fit.
Good point but if that's the case its up to the GAA to enforce its own rules. If it doesn't, we're fucked.
You are probably reading this correctly. I'm just being optimitic only to be crushed with defeat again. I'm from Sligo you know....
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 10:59:47 AM
if, for instance, it was in the form of an annual payment to the GPA (which already receives funds from all sorts of people) to be disbursed as it sees fit.
We are all at the disadvantage of trying to discuss something which hasn't been made public and that in itself is suspicious.
But I can't see how any grant scheme could be administered by the GPA. Would it mean only GPA members get it?
What is the cut off point for naming a panel for the year, what is the year even.
Would the county boards not have to co operate with the GPA by supplying official panels for administration.
Even if it's not administered by the GPA, though, I can still imagine it being implemented without needing a rule change. If a player can get money from endorsements by virtue of his status as a player, he can surely get money from the government by the same token.
But, as you suggest, the whole thing is fraught with all sorts of implications. What sort of pressure will a county manager be under now, in deciding whether to drop somebody from the panel? Now he's effectively sacking someone from a part-time job. So managers may make the case that their (theoretically) unpaid position is untenable if their decisions are affecting people's livelihoods.
There are ways of looking at this that make it look like a proposal designed to fail, as Seanie suggests, all right. For instance, if the selection of players to panels involves an entitlement to government money, won't there have to be a transparent procedure, form-filling in triplicate and all the rest of it? The same when he's dropped. And cue the discrimination case when somebody is dropped if he perceives it's because he's from the wrong parish.
And how can the government justify these payments to individuals, as opposed to grants to the organisation? They might make the case that it's government's business to support and encourage aspects of national culture. But doing this by paying participants directly could surely be construed as discriminatory by the EU. Wouldn't it only take a Polish resident, say, (suppose he's a handball player or participates in whatever is the Polish national sport) to complain that his national culture is being discriminated against if he can't get 3,000 a year to enable his participation in his national sport.
http://www.gaelicplayers.com/images/stories/documents/gaa-gpa_agreement.pdf (http://www.gaelicplayers.com/images/stories/documents/gaa-gpa_agreement.pdf)
Not sure if this has been aired already, apoligies for the repeat if it has.
RTE Radio 1 seems to be reporting that O'Donoghue has said No to the deal (though I see no mention of it on the RTE News or ireland.com websites). More details promised on the sports news with Des Cahill at 6.30.
Update: Confirmed at 5.30. The Government is willing to give extra money to the GAA for things such as the Sports Capital Fund, which would allow the GAA to divert money towards player welfare, but it is not itself willing to provide the money directly for fear of setting a precedent.
You know, some of us remember making these sort of points about precedents, etc. a long time ago on a GAABoard far, far away...
thats a pity, it really fell because everyone was going to look for these grants. if the government had any balls they would tell the rest of the sporting organisations to buzz off. the gaa is unique to ireland and deserves some special treatment.
This is the first I've heard of this (on the go all day) and if it's true it's truly great news. It should be the end of the pay-for-play threat, for now, anyway, given what the GPA is said to have stated recently: I read somewhere the other day* (meant to post it here but forgot) that the GPA had stated that they would not come back to the GAA looking for money if the government rejected their grants scheme. So that's that, on the face of it, though I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the sniffing after money starts again from some other angle. And I think I know what it'll be but that's for another day.
For now, I'm inclined to think that this was a masterful piece of manoeuvring by Nicky Brennan – line up with the GPA, present a joint proposal to the government that you know will never fly, but only after extracting an undertaking from the GPA that this is it and if it fails, there's no coming back looking for it another way.
Game set and match. For now.
* Edit - just read the GAA/GPA agreement linked by fearglasmor above and the undertaking is contained in the agreement.
Quote from: Hardy on April 26, 2007, 09:36:50 PM
This is the first I've heard of this (on the go all day) and if it's true it's truly great news. It should be the end of the pay-for-play threat, for now, anyway, given what the GPA is said to have stated recently: I read somewhere the other day (meant to post it here but forgot) that the GPA had stated that they would not come back to the GAA looking for money if the government rejected their grants scheme. So that's that, on the face of it, though I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the sniffing after money starts again from some other angle. And I think I know what it'll be but that's for another day.
For now, I'm inclined to think that this was a masterful piece of manoeuvring by Nicky Brennan – line up with the GPA, present a joint proposal to the government that you know will never fly, but only after extracting an undertaking from the GPA that this is it and if it fails, there's no coming back looking for it another way.
Game set and match. For now.
Agree Hardy, that's put the tin-hat on the whole escapade, for now at least. Go h-iontach! ;)
i would not be in favour of pay for play but if the gov were going to fund this like they do for some of the olympic sports with grants to individuals then it was ok imo..
Quote from: magickingdom on April 26, 2007, 08:18:14 PM
thats a pity, it really fell because everyone was going to look for these grants. if the government had any balls they would tell the rest of the sporting organisations to buzz off. the gaa is unique to ireland and deserves some special treatment.
thats attitude is so ludicrous it borders on offensive.
the scheme has been in place for years essentially to subsidise olympic athletes that cant afford to give the levels of dedecation required on the prize money available without them moving overseas. the state pay the top 1% a few grand which can allow them remain full time.
its the gpa that went 'looking' for grants already available to irish international competetors. its not a GAA scheme those pesky runners and skiers were trying to fleece. ::)
what a bizarre interpretation of whats going on.
thats before we get onto the fact that the 'uniqueness' of the GAA is its amateruism.
this whole thing is a sad indictment of the hypocricy that pervades GAA thinking sometimes. if the GAA hand a player some money the amateur ethos is shattered. if the state hand over money its somehow ok as the organisation is still amateur despite ever intercounty player getting a wedge. piss or get off the pot lads, we either allow payment to the elite or we dont regardless of the sources. none of this wishy washy half way house shite.
if this is allowed I guarantee that all the top counties football sides will be full time professionals by virtue of subvention from the state and sponsors. Not a penny direct from the county boards but it will be them deciding who gets the largesse.
I echo Hardy's sentiments entirely. Seems my machiavellian imagination wasn't too far off the mark.
Quoteif the state hand over money its somehow ok as the organisation is still amateur despite ever intercounty player getting a wedge.
I know that you've exhibited poor debating skills/etiquette and show all the hallmarks of a slow learner on other threads so I'll try and be clear. Read back over this thread and you'll find that most people DON'T think its ok.
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 27, 2007, 12:10:01 AM
I echo Hardy's sentiments entirely. Seems my machiavellian imagination wasn't too far off the mark.
Quoteif the state hand over money its somehow ok as the organisation is still amateur despite ever intercounty player getting a wedge.
I know that you've exhibited poor debating skills/etiquette and show all the hallmarks of a slow learner on other threads so I'll try and be clear. Read back over this thread and you'll find that most people DON'T think its ok.
but some do. see magic kingdoms post.
there is nothing worse than a smartarse thats wrong.
Quote from: dublinfella on April 27, 2007, 12:19:07 AM
but some do. see magic kingdoms post.
there is nothing worse than a smartarse thats wrong.
You're right there is nothing worse than a smartarse who's wrong - Seanie never said that everyone here think it's OK, he said most. Not all, not everyone but most. And he's right,not wrong - smartarse ::)
Quote from: stephenite on April 27, 2007, 12:22:07 AM
Quote from: dublinfella on April 27, 2007, 12:19:07 AM
but some do. see magic kingdoms post.
there is nothing worse than a smartarse thats wrong.
You're right there is nothing worse than a smartarse who's wrong - Seanie never said that everyone here think it's OK, he said most. Not all, not everyone but most. And he's right,not wrong - smartarse ::)
for fucks sake....
I quoted magickingdom stating that he wanted the other sports to leave the GAA's scheme alone.
Im then told that my response to that mentalism is irrelevent because no-one wants this to happen.
Even though Im replying to someone who does.
Just when you thought the pettiness on this site couldnt get any worse.
Stop talking shite than - you're accusing Seanie of being a wrong smartarse, when it is in fact you're the one who is the wrong smartarse - stop being a wrong smartarsem, and with that in mind where did Magickingdom say that he wanted other sports to leave the GAA's scheme alone?
He said ......
Quote from: magickingdom on April 26, 2007, 10:17:31 PM
i would not be in favour of pay for play but if the gov were going to fund this like they do for some of the olympic sports with grants to individuals then it was ok imo..
Edit - apologies, I see where he said that. Still he's one of the few
Quote from: Hardy on April 26, 2007, 09:36:50 PM
This is the first I've heard of this (on the go all day) and if it's true it's truly great news. It should be the end of the pay-for-play threat, for now, anyway, given what the GPA is said to have stated recently: I read somewhere the other day* (meant to post it here but forgot) that the GPA had stated that they would not come back to the GAA looking for money if the government rejected their grants scheme. So that's that, on the face of it, though I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the sniffing after money starts again from some other angle. And I think I know what it'll be but that's for another day.
For now, I'm inclined to think that this was a masterful piece of manoeuvring by Nicky Brennan – line up with the GPA, present a joint proposal to the government that you know will never fly, but only after extracting an undertaking from the GPA that this is it and if it fails, there's no coming back looking for it another way.
Game set and match. For now.
* Edit - just read the GAA/GPA agreement linked by fearglasmor above and the undertaking is contained in the agreement.
"Masterful manoueuvering by Brennan" - what a joke! Its gas when someone is popular they get credit for everything going and when they're not they get blamed for everything.
It really amazes the anti-intercounty player feeling from the general masses on the board. Begrudge the players getting a grant, not from the GAA, but from the government. "Game set and match" when the players get nothing. Bizarre.
This is a bad decision for the GAA. The Minister has said the €5m is still available, you just have to apply for it in some other way for say a (makey-uppey??) capital project - and then fund the players with a different €5m. The Minister has been very sleeveen about this, for the first time saying "it is a matter for the GAA itself to pay these grants through some undefined funding mechanism". The GPA are saying its effectively the same €5m, which it is, so there should be no issue. But there's just no way the GAA can pay it to the players directly.
A government paid grant would have put an end to the pay-for-play debate for years, now I fear this is just the beginning...
QuoteIt really amazes the anti-intercounty player feeling from the general masses on the board
Not true Hound. One can be suspicious of i GPA and Dessie's gang and be pro inter county player. Most contributors here are anxious that the GAA survives and is not brought down by a greedy clique.
QuoteA government paid grant would have put an end to the pay-for-play debate for years
No it would not. The GPA have a pay for play agenda and would have trousered any grant from government and continued chipping away at the Pay for Play agenda. You should remember GPA is essentially a commercial organisation rather than an organisation solely interested in players welfare.
Quotethere is nothing worse than a smartarse thats wrong.
I should have known better than engaging with him. ::)
Hound, there are some surprisingly cheap and inaccurate shots in your response to what I said. You know my position on the government grant idea very well and to represent me and anyone who opposes it as being anti-player is unfair to us whom you dismiss as "the general masses on the board".
And scoff if you like at my speculation that Brennan may have "masterfully" engineered this outcome, but I can assure you that it has nothing to do with his popularity and I'm not one of his uncritical fans. I'm possibly the only contributor here who has posted criticism of him and his approach since he was elected. So you're off the mark there.
I disagree profoundly that "a government paid grant would have put an end to the pay-for-play debate for years" for the reasons stated by Tatler Jack.
You may be right about the substantive issue, though. It may be just the beginning, as you suggest and my optimism of last night is waning a little. On reading the GAA/GPA agreement again, all it undertakes is that the GPA won't ask the GAA to fund the payments. They will now maintain that the government is still providing the funding and so nothing changes – it's the same €5M, as you say – except that it will be up to the GAA to disburse it. The GAA (I hope, at least) won't do this and so it has the potential for a long-drawn-out and even nastier row. "The government wanted to give us €5M and you stood in the way" sort of stuff.
Dublinfella:
"I quoted magickingdom stating that he wanted the other sports to leave the GAA's scheme alone"
not what i said, it was more like that the gov should tell the other sports/business (for your lot) to fock off and have the balls to set up a grant system for the gaa which is unique to ireland. kinda like cultural preservation if you will. i'm sure some of the other sporting bodies would have a problem with that but some wouldnt. i was to lazy to read all the previous posts but i'm sure many for very good reasons dont agree with it. theres a quote button on your screen if you have difficulty quoting me in future....
Quotenot what i said, it was more like that the gov should tell the other sports/business (for your lot) to fock off and have the balls to set up a grant system for the gaa which is unique to ireland. kinda like cultural preservation if you will. i'm sure some of the other sporting bodies would have a problem with that but some wouldnt. i was to lazy to read all the previous posts but i'm sure many for very good reasons dont agree with it. theres a quote button on your screen if you have difficulty quoting me in future....
Wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance of getting by the Supreme Court and the provisions on equality in the constitution. Never mind getting by the Joe Duffy Show audience...
The grants were
never going to be a runner because of the follow-on implications. I remember making this point last year, pointing out the Sports Council criteria for existing grant-holders, etc. and the comments from the hockey and basketball associations. I also remember getting pooh-poohed at the time by the GPA's in-house fan club.