gaaboard.com

WTF?

Breaking news!

Has a Pope ever resigned before?

Who did he hand his notice into?

Let the mad theories commence..........

My money in t fearon and olly to have the most outrageous ones

Last one to resign was Pope Celestine in the 13th century.

This can only be seen as a good thing, and progress in my opinion. Much better in amy organisation to have a strong leader than someone slipping into dotage as we have seen before. Would be real progress if they got some chap in relative youth and good health - maybe in the their 50s.

Enough of these Benedicts and Celestines, in order to modernise the Papacy we need a Pope Jack, Pope Ethan, Pope Kyle or Pope Conor.

(i) When he heard Michael D was going to call in he decided to up sticks and leave
(ii) His son and daugter and many mistresses have been exposed
(iii) He wants more time to study the Racing Post
(iv) There has been a coup in The Vatican by the Anti-Christ who will now reign supreme

Cue Onion headline: Pope submits resignation; God says No.

I don't think it is any coincidence that he resigned just days after the suspicious arson attack on Willie Frazer's car.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21411304 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21411304)

@Pontifexit

The End of Days is nigh.
Noonan was right to pay off Anglo with those long term bonds.

I thought this was going to be a topic about Brent Pope!

Quote from: Premier Emperor on February 11, 2013, 11:33:29 AM
I thought this was going to be a topic about Brent Pope!

Apparently both were shocked at ROG's performance yesterday.

David Beckham is flying to the Vatican as we speak

Sure he's 85 FFS. How many of the popes in the past have had dementia? Age limit should be put on these posts, God could be telling him one thing and he'll hear something else

What kind of pension will he get? And where will he live?

QuoteWhat kind of pension will he get?

It should be decent. We'd all get decent pensions if we waited to 85 to retire.

QuoteAnd where will he live?

Glengormley is lovely, I believe. .

The Banty has just been on the local Radio and says that he'd be interested in the job and that he would bring a great deal of experience and knowledge to the role, he'd empty the tank.

Quote from: Bingo on February 11, 2013, 11:44:40 AM
The Banty has just been on the local Radio and says that he'd be interested in the job and that he would bring a great deal of experience and knowledge to the role, he'd empty the tank.

Too late, Micko is already lined up.  Says Vatican Gaels are a sleeping giant.  Money no object apparently.

I thought this was going to be a rugby thread.

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 11:51:42 AM

Quote from: Bingo on February 11, 2013, 11:44:40 AM
The Banty has just been on the local Radio and says that he'd be interested in the job and that he would bring a great deal of experience and knowledge to the role, he'd empty the tank.

Too late, Micko is already lined up.  Says Vatican Gaels are a sleeping giant.  Money no object apparently.

He'd be the right age

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 11:38:08 AM
David Beckham is flying to the Vatican as we speak

What if Robbie Keane gets there before him? Apparently it's always been his dream to play for the Vatican.

So if the next occupant is from the dark continent ole Nostradumus could have been on the money and we can all start praying for forgiveness or partieing till the end depending on your outlook :D

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 11, 2013, 11:53:07 AM

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 11:51:42 AM

Quote from: Bingo on February 11, 2013, 11:44:40 AM
The Banty has just been on the local Radio and says that he'd be interested in the job and that he would bring a great deal of experience and knowledge to the role, he'd empty the tank.

Too late, Micko is already lined up.  Says Vatican Gaels are a sleeping giant.  Money no object apparently.

He'd be the right age

He is also messianic figure who many believe actually can walk on water!  Micko's the man for the job!

Ex Benedict.

Saturday nights will never be the same again, Pope Idol.

Quote from: Declan on February 11, 2013, 11:55:23 AM
So if the next occupant is from the dark continent ole Nostradumus could have been on the money and we can all start praying for forgiveness or partieing till the end depending on your outlook :D

Hocus Pocus

Quote from: deiseach on February 11, 2013, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 11:38:08 AM
David Beckham is flying to the Vatican as we speak

What if Robbie Keane gets there before him? Apparently it's always been his dream to play pray for the Vatican.

Fixed

Quote from: deiseach on February 11, 2013, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 11:38:08 AM
David Beckham is flying to the Vatican as we speak

What if Robbie Keane gets there before him? Apparently it's always been his dream to play for the Vatican.

Peter Odemwingie has already jumped on a plane and has just turned up at the Vatican's door.

Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2013, 12:02:09 PM

Quote from: deiseach on February 11, 2013, 11:54:04 AM

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 11:38:08 AM
David Beckham is flying to the Vatican as we speak

What if Robbie Keane gets there before him? Apparently it's always been his dream to play for the Vatican.

Peter Odemwingie has already jumped on a plane and has just turned up at the Vatican's door.

Nice one!  ;)

Maybe he is off to London, wonder is he off to a newly legal shindig in Westminister Cathedral  ;)

Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana is the 5/2 fav.  How will an African Pope go down in Kilcoo??

Where are all the tributes?

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 11, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Where are all the tributes?

They'll likely to be an envelope collection at mass this sunday for him. That they type of tribute you mean?

Quote from: Bingo on February 11, 2013, 12:13:37 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 11, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Where are all the tributes?

They'll likely to be an envelope collection at mass this sunday for him. That they type of tribute you mean?

No - for all the great things he did in his role as leader of the Catholic religion. There was....and, err, ...

Quote from: Bingo on February 11, 2013, 12:13:37 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 11, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Where are all the tributes?

They'll likely to be an envelope collection at mass this sunday for him. That they type of tribute you mean?

Hardly worthy of an Emperor of Rome, a Gaul in a cage is what we need, I suggest Gerard Depardieu. O wait, that piss stain on a plane is a Russian now.

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 11, 2013, 12:16:26 PM

Quote from: Bingo on February 11, 2013, 12:13:37 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 11, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Where are all the tributes?

They'll likely to be an envelope collection at mass this sunday for him. That they type of tribute you mean?

No - for all the great things he did in his role as leader of the Catholic religion. There was....and, err, ...

He went on twitter?

Father Jack for Pope!! (But the feckin' Jesuits, they have it all tied up!).

The only man for the job!

(http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash3/c0.4.180.180/s160x160/26549_351425608342_49214_a.jpg)

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 12:09:18 PM
Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana is the 5/2 fav.  How will an African Pope go down in Kilcoo??

The canadian is the favourite Ouiellet- the Ghanian is 5-1

Quote from: heganboy on February 11, 2013, 12:41:23 PM

Quote from: AQMP on February 11, 2013, 12:09:18 PM
Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana is the 5/2 fav.  How will an African Pope go down in Kilcoo??

The canadian is the favourite Ouiellet- the Ghanian is 5-1

The Guardian has been wrong before!!:

Alex Fenton-Thomas profiles Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson, named by British bookmakers as the favourite to succeed Benedict.

Cardinal Peter Turkson, a Ghanaian, is president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. He has been considered 'papabile' since he was appointed to this post by Benedict XVI in 2009 amid speculation that the next pope would probably be from Africa as part of the Catholic church's attempts to modernise and reach out to a huge Catholic congregation from the Sahel southwards.

Peter Turkson was born in western Ghana to a Methodist mother and Catholic father. As a boy in the seminary he was considered far too boisterous to be content in a contemplative, solemn career in the church.

But he was reportedly begged by his mother to knuckle down and study hard to become a priest, and he did so well he was chosen to move to the US to study at St Anthony-on-Hudson Seminary in Rensselaer, New York, and he was ordained as a priest in 1975.

Returning to Ghana, he became a professor at St Teresa's Seminary, near where he grew up, and dedicated himself to academia as well as performing pastoral work in the local area.

In 1992 he was appointed Archbishop of Cape Coast by Pope John Paul II and served as president of the Ghana Catholic Bishops' Conference from 1997 to 2005.

It was during this time, in 2003, when Pope John Paul made him the first ever Ghanaian cardinal and his influence was extended by Pope Benedict XVI, who appointed him president of the Ponitifical Council for Justice and Peace, a role which sent him around the world mediating in countries such as the Ivory Coast in 2011.

In October of that year he called for the establishment of a 'global public authority' and a 'central world bank' and has come out in favour of a Robin Hood-style tax on large financial transactions. When he visited Britain with Pope Benedict in 2010 he was singled out as a possible successor.

You can get 1000/1 on Bono to be next Pope.

‏@paddypower
Bizarre developing news that Benedict has resigned because preliminary DNA tests have found high levels of Horse DNA in the Holy Communion.

‏@paddypower
**BREAKING** An unusual twist in the Papal saga, as a potential successor has just arrived at the Vatican. pic.twitter.com/gvknINDr


https://twitter.com/paddypower/status/300942797500989440/photo/1

Quote from: mick999 on February 11, 2013, 01:03:12 PM



‏@paddypower
Bizarre developing news that Benedict has resigned because preliminary DNA tests have found high levels of Horse DNA in the Holy Communion.

‏@paddypower
**BREAKING** An unusual twist in the Papal saga, as a potential successor has just arrived at the Vatican. pic.twitter.com/gvknINDr


https://twitter.com/paddypower/status/300942797500989440/photo/1

Maybe Pope Benedict contains 66.6% Protestant meat.

I'm hoping the next Pope will be more open for change. Understandably, the Church does not bow to fashion, but the world is a very different place than it was 60 years ago.

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 01:11:53 PM
I'm hoping the next Pope will be more open for change. Understandably, the Church does not bow to fashion, but the world is a very different place than it was 600 years ago.

Fixed that for you.

Don't panic!  Rafa is filling in until a decent replacement can be found!!


(http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/532045_479002392164344_20723924_n.jpg)

Quote from: mick999 on February 11, 2013, 01:03:12 PM



‏@paddypower
Bizarre developing news that Benedict has resigned because preliminary DNA tests have found high levels of Horse DNA in the Holy Communion.

‏@paddypower
**BREAKING** An unusual twist in the Papal saga, as a potential successor has just arrived at the Vatican. pic.twitter.com/gvknINDr


https://twitter.com/paddypower/status/300942797500989440/photo/1

Paddy I'm assuming my cheque is in the post!

Quote from: EC Unique on February 11, 2013, 01:18:01 PM
Don't panic!  Rafa is filling in until a decent replacement can be found!!


(http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/532045_479002392164344_20723924_n.jpg)

You just proved me wrong that the Catholic Church couldn't be in an ever worse mess.

What next? The Papal State signs Torres for Grand Inquisitioner!

If anyone wants to contribute to the popes leaving present you can donate via Papal.

Quote from: haveaharp on February 11, 2013, 01:29:06 PM
If anyone wants to contribute to the popes leaving present you can donate via Papal.

;D

Bye Bye Benny.

(http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/A8/C3BE19D3FF1C7C886BCC610DA203B.jpg)

Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 11, 2013, 01:31:56 PM
Bye Bye Benny.

(http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/A8/C3BE19D3FF1C7C886BCC610DA203B.jpg)

You'll only be happy if Mel Gibson gets the pope gig!

http://newsthump.com/2013/02/11/pope-placed-on-gardening-leave-after-accepting-lucrative-offer-to-join-islam/

Pope placed on gardening leave after accepting lucrative offer to join Islam

Pope Benedict XVI has been placed on gardening leave after accepting an 'unbelievably generous' offer to join Islam on a free transfer during the religious transfer window.

In what is believed to be a historic move between the two great traditional rivals, the Pope will take a leading role in his new side as they seek to become the dominant force in world religion.

In a brief statement the Pontiff revealed his thoughts had been turning increasingly towards Mecca and that Islam represented his 'greatest professional challenge'.

The former Cardinal Ratzinger confirmed he would work his four-week notice period minus any holidays he carried forward from last year, but was immediately escorted from his gold throne.

"Once he told us he had signed a pre-contract agreement, we had no choice to send him home," explained one Vatican source.

"He was free to talk to other religions, obviously, but we were confident he'd sign on for another few years."

Pope transfer

Though his conversion is the most high-profile since Cat Stevens began trading under the name of Yusuf Islam and stopped signing autographs, the Pope spoke of both his sadness and excitement at the move, and his hope that the 'fans will understand'.

He told reporters gathered outside St Peters, "The Catholic fans have been great to me ever since I came here, and I can't thank them enough for all their support over the last five years."

"I just hope they can see this from my point of view and realise there is no greater challenge to a religious professional than crossing this great divide."

"It's a massive opportunity for me, and one I'm looking forward to."

"I'm going to have a few weeks off to recharge the batteries, and then I can't wait to pull on the famous Shalwar Kameez and show the Muslim fans what I can do."

 ;D

http://donegaldollop.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/popewatch-papal-policy-found-to-contain-95-horseshit/

POPEWATCH: Papal Policy Found to Contain 95% Horseshit?

The Dollop has learned from sources close to the Vatican that the reason behind Pope Benedict XVI's resignation is due to the finding of 95% horseshit in his various theological ramblings down through the years.

"We suspected a Romanian source to all the horseshit going around about contraception in Africa, hatred towards gays and what a woman should be allowed to do with her body" a spokesperson told us earlier, before adding that "all along, the horseshit was emanating from within the walls of that dress-wearing state within Rome, traceable to the former cardinal of German extract."

Benedict XVI was about to be sent for DNA testing to see if his horseshit utterance levels were dangerously high, something that would have immediately given him away as the reason for so many sick stomachs across the globe. It is understood he stood down from the papacy so as not to have this invasive and probing procedure (an area that only his closest aides are allowed near).

According to one news agency, is it now up to some other cardinal to take up the challenge of "oral defecation of the new vision for the world's 1.2 billion Catholics." As one holy pilgrim to St. Peter's Basilica told us "I'm like, totally heartbroken that I don't have this obscure elderly gentleman to tell me I can't have sex"

(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Hardyarse/endakenny1_zps91193477.jpg)

How will God know which one to talk to? Will he need to use one of those line splitters?

Sad news! As many of you are aware I'm a frequent visitor to Rome, and you are guaranteed to see the Pope on a Sunday (if he's not away gallivanting across the world) as he appears from the library window in St Peter's Square to recite the Angelus (you must remember it surely?)

Buzz around the City centre from about 10.30am onwards, as copious amounts of nuns and pilgrims of every nationality, pile on to vatican bound buses, and no better feeling at about 12.20pm, after being addressed by the Pope, walking away from St Peter's down the via Conciliatore, spiritually refreshed, and bolting in to one of the many cafes on that route for a capuccino!

Quote from: T Fearon on February 11, 2013, 04:24:49 PM
Sad news! As many of you are aware I'm a frequent visitor to Rome, and you are guaranteed to see the Pope on a Sunday (if he's not away gallivanting across the world) as he appears from the library window in St Peter's Square to recite the Angelus (you must remember it surely?)

Buzz around the City centre from about 10.30am onwards, as copious amounts of nuns and pilgrims of every nationality, pile on to vatican bound buses, and no better feeling at about 12.20pm, after being addressed by the Pope, walking away from St Peter's down the via Conciliatore, spiritually refreshed, and bolting in to one of the many cafes on that route for a capuccino!

Don't worry Tone, I'm sure there'll be another one along soon enough, a young spritely 70 year old no doubt.

Quote from: Declan on February 11, 2013, 11:55:23 AM
So if the next occupant is from the dark continent ole Nostradumus could have been on the money and we can all start praying for forgiveness or partieing till the end depending on your outlook :D

Nostradumus said the next man is from Roscommon?

I always felt Irish people who were Pope fans were basically Irish Royalists, who couldn't stomach a British monarch.

Back on April 29, 2009, Pope Benedict XVI did something rather striking, but which went largely unnoticed.

He stopped off in Aquila, Italy, and visited the tomb of an obscure medieval Pope named St. Celestine V (1215-1296). After a brief prayer, he left his pallium, the symbol of his own episcopal authority as Bishop of Rome, on top of Celestine's tomb!

Fifteen months later, on July 4, 2010, Benedict went out of his way again, this time to visit and pray in the cathedral of Sulmona, near Rome, before the relics of this same saint, Celestine V.

Few people, however, noticed at the time.

Only now, we may be gaining a better understanding of what it meant. These actions were probably more than pious acts. More likely, they were profound and symbolic gestures of a very personal nature, which conveyed a message that a Pope can hardly deliver any other way.

In the year 1294, this man (Fr. Pietro Angelerio), known by all as a devout and holy priest, was elected Pope, somewhat against his will, shortly before his 80th birthday (Ratzinger was 78 when he was elected Pope in 2005). Just five months later, after issuing a formal decree allowing popes to resign (or abdicate, like other rulers), Pope Celestine V exercised that right. And now Pope Benedict XVI has chosen to follow in the footsteps of this venerable model.

Quoteafter being addressed by the Pope, walking away from St Peter's down the via Conciliatore, spiritually refreshed, and bolting in to one of the many cafes on that route for a capuccino!

I'm sure the Romans have a good laugh at the Portadown custom of having a Cappuchino at lunchtime.

QuoteI always felt Irish people who were Pope fans were basically Irish Royalists, who couldn't stomach a British monarch.

The oul horseburger is not appealing, but to stomach a monarch is indeed out of the question.

Quote from: armaghniac on February 11, 2013, 04:55:49 PM

Quoteafter being addressed by the Pope, walking away from St Peter's down the via Conciliatore, spiritually refreshed, and bolting in to one of the many cafes on that route for a capuccino!

I'm sure the Romans have a good laugh at the Portadown custom of having a Cappuchino at lunchtime.

QuoteI always felt Irish people who were Pope fans were basically Irish Royalists, who couldn't stomach a British monarch.

The oul horseburger is not appealing, but to stomach a monarch is indeed out of the question.

Nescafe with a squirt of cream from a can.

If there is a competition to find the next Pope, i'm sure you would stand a good chance of winning Tony !!

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s480x480/404827_483655088348736_71182421_n.jpg)

Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on February 11, 2013, 07:14:57 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s480x480/404827_483655088348736_71182421_n.jpg)

Theres been 8 Popes named Jack already?!

I see Nally Stand is in the running......

Time Ripe For A Carrickmore Pope Says Carrickmore PP

Following the shock resignation of Pope Benedict today, Carrickmore PP Fr Colman Gormley (69) has gone on the offensive immediately with a series of twitter statements advocating the appointment of a Pope from the Carmen for the first time since Catholicism was invented thousands of years ago. Despite there having been no Irish Popes since St Peter got the first gig, Fr Gormley says that this should be no impediment to the drive for a Carrickmore Pope to shake up the whole Vatican movement.

"It's about time, to be honest. We've had a black President of America, women prime ministers, a TV show called The Manageress in the 90s, Tyrone beating Kerry, men wearing skirts....why not a Carmen pope? Take me for example. I'm in my prime. I love pizza and at the sports day I travelled around the field standing up through the sunroof of the brother's Mini Cooper, waving at the crowd. OK, it'd be a bit of a culture shock living in Rome but don't forget, I did a stint in Loughmacrory in the 70s. I have big ideas too: twitter-style masses in 120 words or fewer; good looking Eucharistic Ministers; electro-dance homily music; altar boy reality shows where they are voted off by doing an average mass etc. I'm hoping to get a clipboard with pages for people to sign my petition."

The Vatican refused to comment on Fr Gormley's chances but did indicate that they were already in advanced negotiations with a young priest from Tattyreagh.

"It is Vatican policy not to comment on these things but Fr John Donnelly from Tattyreagh is at the top of his game. He did Stations of the Cross last year up in Glenelly in over two hours. That's unavoidably impressive," a member of the Holy See told us over the phone.

The Catholic Church have yet to rule out a Pope-Off mass competition at Edendork this weekend between Gormley and your man from Clonoe.

http://tyronetribulations.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/time-ripe-for-a-carrickmore-pope-says-carrickmore-pp/

It's Mickey Harte's to loose  ;D

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 04:52:12 PM
I always felt Irish people who were Pope fans were basically Irish Royalists, who couldn't stomach a British monarch.

Snap. Brits had the best of both worlds thou, establish your own religion & be a quasi-pope & monarch rolled into one. Everyones a winner - as Delboy would have said.

Nothing against the man, I'm sure he was a lovely guy, it's the thing about talking to God that gets me and then telling you what he said that I could never get my head around. Did the church never think that we'd catch on?

At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

fair play

Quote from: The Iceman on February 11, 2013, 08:26:03 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

fair play

I reckon Benny has seen the light ;)

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

He never mentioned the monarchy in his last post, you did.

He didnt mention reverence in his last post.

Christianity was seen to be a cult when it started, it is no longer a cult no matter how you and you fellow non believers look at it.

I'm ready to admit I am a skeptic, but when I saw the Pope's rationale for leaving his position be questioned today by some rather more liberal friends of mine on the old FB, I admit to feeling a touch of sadness for the guy.

Quote from: stew on February 11, 2013, 08:37:37 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

He never mentioned the monarchy in his last post, you did.

He didnt mention reverence in his last post.

Christianity was seen to be a cult when it started, it is no longer a cult no matter how you and you fellow non believers look at it.

The Pope is a Monarch, he is an elected Emperor the Princes of the Church. I wonder who you meant by "The Monarchy", have you been conditioned to think there is only one?
Are you blind, he does mention reverence.

Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2013, 08:50:49 PM
I'm ready to admit I am a skeptic, but when I saw the Pope's rationale for leaving his position be questioned today by some rather more liberal friends of mine on the old FB, I admit to feeling a touch of sadness for the guy.

In all honesty, I believe there has been a coup.

Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2013, 08:50:49 PM
I'm ready to admit I am a skeptic, but when I saw the Pope's rationale for leaving his position be questioned today by some rather more liberal friends of mine on the old FB, I admit to feeling a touch of sadness for the guy.

Its a sensitive topic. I'm still somewhat in shock. He never really wanted the role of Cardinal never-mind Pope, but JP II wanted him for the job and how could he refuse.
This has been on the cards for a while if you read my earlier post. He has been contemplating this since 2009 and maybe even earlier.
In today's modern world where everything is visible and you have to be "on" all the time, the servant role of Pope is very much a younger man's vocation. I am sad to see him step down but hopeful of a new era in the Church.

I think Iceman you are right, the new era cannot be understated. It would be a tremendous time for the church to win back some lost hearts and minds. I don't think it's impossible.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:51:44 PM

Quote from: stew on February 11, 2013, 08:37:37 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

He never mentioned the monarchy in his last post, you did.

He didnt mention reverence in his last post.

Christianity was seen to be a cult when it started, it is no longer a cult no matter how you and you fellow non believers look at it.

The Pope is a Monarch, he is an elected Emperor the Princes of the Church. I wonder who you meant by "The Monarchy", have you been conditioned to think there is only one?
Are you blind, he does mention reverence.

The Pope is not a monarch!

As for Monarchy, they are ten a penny around europe, he's not one of them.

I missed the part on reverence!

I wonder if he's going to come out as an atheist. "Right lads, it was all a load of ballix all along, so you may pack up your things and go home. Show's over."

Quote from: stew on February 11, 2013, 09:51:04 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:51:44 PM

Quote from: stew on February 11, 2013, 08:37:37 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

He never mentioned the monarchy in his last post, you did.

He didnt mention reverence in his last post.

Christianity was seen to be a cult when it started, it is no longer a cult no matter how you and you fellow non believers look at it.

The Pope is a Monarch, he is an elected Emperor the Princes of the Church. I wonder who you meant by "The Monarchy", have you been conditioned to think there is only one?
Are you blind, he does mention reverence.

The Pope is not a monarch!

As for Monarchy, they are ten a penny around europe, he's not one of them.

I missed the part on reverence!

The Pope in Rome is a monarch. A simple google of the characteristics of a monarch will tell you that. Popes/Patriarchs are ten a penny too  ;)

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 11, 2013, 10:04:47 PM
I wonder if he's going to come out as an atheist. "Right lads, it was all a load of ballix all along, so you may pack up your things and go home. Show's over."

Wouldn't be the first

(http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/II2AKCI4Q9c/mqdefault.jpg)

Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2013, 04:48:45 PM

Quote from: Declan on February 11, 2013, 11:55:23 AM
So if the next occupant is from the dark continent ole Nostradumus could have been on the money and we can all start praying for forgiveness or partieing till the end depending on your outlook :D

Nostradumus said the next man is from Roscommon?

Loughglynn/Fairymount to be precise.

Not too pushed either way but would wish him well in his retirement. Don't think he was as disliked as the majority of the media would like us to believe.

Aside from appearing to prioritise the protection the Church, rather than it's children, when leading the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as Pope he claimed and received diplomatic immunity from a trial for child molestation: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/01/us-pope-abuse-idUSTRE62U5RF20100401 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/01/us-pope-abuse-idUSTRE62U5RF20100401)

To me his church told us to listen to our hearts, while he listened to his lawyers.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

Quote from: The Iceman on February 11, 2013, 09:27:46 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2013, 08:50:49 PM
I'm ready to admit I am a skeptic, but when I saw the Pope's rationale for leaving his position be questioned today by some rather more liberal friends of mine on the old FB, I admit to feeling a touch of sadness for the guy.

Its a sensitive topic. I'm still somewhat in shock. He never really wanted the role of Cardinal never-mind Pope, but JP II wanted him for the job and how could he refuse.
This has been on the cards for a while if you read my earlier post. He has been contemplating this since 2009 and maybe even earlier.
In today's modern world where everything is visible and you have to be "on" all the time, the servant role of Pope is very much a younger man's vocation. I am sad to see him step down but hopeful of a new era in the Church.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as he was then, encouraged Pope John Paul II to retire as Pope when he got bad with Parkinson's and it affected his ability to oversee the day-to-day responsibilities of being the Bishop of Rome. So it can come as no big surprise that once Pope Benedict XII felt that his body and mind were affecting his abilities to lead the Catholic Church, that he should take his own advice.

This should herald the need for a younger Pope in his 50s or 60s to be elected as the next Pope and someone who can lead the Church into the 21st Century, by dealing with the pass crimes and making the Church more relevant to the modern world, without losing it's true values.

Quote from: ziggysego on February 12, 2013, 11:52:32 AM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 11, 2013, 09:27:46 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2013, 08:50:49 PM
I'm ready to admit I am a skeptic, but when I saw the Pope's rationale for leaving his position be questioned today by some rather more liberal friends of mine on the old FB, I admit to feeling a touch of sadness for the guy.

Its a sensitive topic. I'm still somewhat in shock. He never really wanted the role of Cardinal never-mind Pope, but JP II wanted him for the job and how could he refuse.
This has been on the cards for a while if you read my earlier post. He has been contemplating this since 2009 and maybe even earlier.
In today's modern world where everything is visible and you have to be "on" all the time, the servant role of Pope is very much a younger man's vocation. I am sad to see him step down but hopeful of a new era in the Church.

by dealing with the pass crimes and making the Church more relevant to the modern world, without losing it's true values.

What chance is there of that? I'd say its akin to urinating into a force 8

Quote from: ziggysego on February 12, 2013, 11:52:32 AM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 11, 2013, 09:27:46 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2013, 08:50:49 PM
I'm ready to admit I am a skeptic, but when I saw the Pope's rationale for leaving his position be questioned today by some rather more liberal friends of mine on the old FB, I admit to feeling a touch of sadness for the guy.

Its a sensitive topic. I'm still somewhat in shock. He never really wanted the role of Cardinal never-mind Pope, but JP II wanted him for the job and how could he refuse.
This has been on the cards for a while if you read my earlier post. He has been contemplating this since 2009 and maybe even earlier.
In today's modern world where everything is visible and you have to be "on" all the time, the servant role of Pope is very much a younger man's vocation. I am sad to see him step down but hopeful of a new era in the Church.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as he was then, encouraged Pope John Paul II to retire as Pope when he got bad with Parkinson's and it affected his ability to oversee the day-to-day responsibilities of being the Bishop of Rome. So it can come as no big surprise that once Pope Benedict XII felt that his body and mind were affecting his abilities to lead the Catholic Church, that he should take his own advice.

This should herald the need for a younger Pope in his 50s or 60s to be elected as the next Pope and someone who can lead the Church into the 21st Century, by dealing with the pass crimes and making the Church more relevant to the modern world, without losing it's true values.

Are there any Popes that fit that age bracket that are in with a shout? What changes would you like to see if a young Pope was announced?

Priests to be allowed to marry
Contraception to be allowed
Acceptance of gays
Women priests
Divorcees to be able to re marry in church

Add to these I'm sure there is a lot more

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 12, 2013, 12:39:21 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on February 12, 2013, 11:52:32 AM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 11, 2013, 09:27:46 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2013, 08:50:49 PM
I'm ready to admit I am a skeptic, but when I saw the Pope's rationale for leaving his position be questioned today by some rather more liberal friends of mine on the old FB, I admit to feeling a touch of sadness for the guy.

Its a sensitive topic. I'm still somewhat in shock. He never really wanted the role of Cardinal never-mind Pope, but JP II wanted him for the job and how could he refuse.
This has been on the cards for a while if you read my earlier post. He has been contemplating this since 2009 and maybe even earlier.
In today's modern world where everything is visible and you have to be "on" all the time, the servant role of Pope is very much a younger man's vocation. I am sad to see him step down but hopeful of a new era in the Church.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as he was then, encouraged Pope John Paul II to retire as Pope when he got bad with Parkinson's and it affected his ability to oversee the day-to-day responsibilities of being the Bishop of Rome. So it can come as no big surprise that once Pope Benedict XII felt that his body and mind were affecting his abilities to lead the Catholic Church, that he should take his own advice.

This should herald the need for a younger Pope in his 50s or 60s to be elected as the next Pope and someone who can lead the Church into the 21st Century, by dealing with the pass crimes and making the Church more relevant to the modern world, without losing it's true values.

Are there any Popes that fit that age bracket that are in with a shout? What changes would you like to see if a young Pope was announced?

Priests to be allowed to marry
Contraception to be allowed
Women priests
Divorcees to be able to re marry in church

Add to these I'm sure there is a lot more

Priests to be allowed to marry
Contraception to be allowed
Women priests
Divorcees to be able to re marry in church

that would go a long way to modernising the church and dragging them out of the 14th century. Although i think back then priests and popes were allowed to marry!

Back then, even the likes of Jeremy Irons was Pope.

I'm not religious so not really bothered about what the church does or doesn't do, but I don't really understand this modernising agenda. Clubs are entitled to have rules and if you don't like them then don't sign up!

Quote from: ziggy90 on February 12, 2013, 08:46:20 AM

Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2013, 04:48:45 PM

Quote from: Declan on February 11, 2013, 11:55:23 AM
So if the next occupant is from the dark continent ole Nostradumus could have been on the money and we can all start praying for forgiveness or partieing till the end depending on your outlook :D

Nostradumus said the next man is from Roscommon?

Loughglynn/Fairymount to be precise.

Is loughlynn in roscommon. Love the song woodlandsof loughlynn but never had a clue where it was!!!

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

t

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

My family are Atheists, Agnostics and Liberal Catholics as far as I can tell. I myself was a Liberal Catholic with no time for the Pope and my own views on religion rather than following dogma, I progresses to becoming Agnostic briefly and then realised it was moronic and realised I was an Atheist. I actually started to think God couldn't be possible before my teens about the time I stopped believing in Santa, somehow managed to ignore my better judgement for several years and adhere to the bullshit of pretending just maybe. I think lots of Religious on here are just afraid to accept they really deep down know God couldn't possibly exist.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 12, 2013, 01:27:13 PM

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

t

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

My family are Atheists, Agnostics and Liberal Catholics as far as I can tell. I myself was a Liberal Catholic with no time for the Pope and my own views on religion rather than following dogma, I progresses to becoming Agnostic briefly and then realised it was moronic and realised I was an Atheist. I actually started to think God couldn't be possible before my teens about the time I stopped believing in Santa, somehow managed to ignore my better judgement for several years and adhere to the bullshit of pretending just maybe. I think lots of Religious on here are just afraid to accept they really deep down know God couldn't possibly exist.

You are quite typical of a lot of people today. Born into a Catholic family, rebel, declare that their is no God and go about your life.

Most that go down that path will return to their religion in later life when they realise that it is a lonely place without faith and they don't want to face death without it. A lot of people return to their faith when faced with death or terminal illness.

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 01:35:08 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 12, 2013, 01:27:13 PM

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

t

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

My family are Atheists, Agnostics and Liberal Catholics as far as I can tell. I myself was a Liberal Catholic with no time for the Pope and my own views on religion rather than following dogma, I progresses to becoming Agnostic briefly and then realised it was moronic and realised I was an Atheist. I actually started to think God couldn't be possible before my teens about the time I stopped believing in Santa, somehow managed to ignore my better judgement for several years and adhere to the bullshit of pretending just maybe. I think lots of Religious on here are just afraid to accept they really deep down know God couldn't possibly exist.

You are quite typical of a lot of people today. Born into a Catholic family, rebel, declare that their is no God and go about your life.

Most that go down that path will return to their religion in later life when they realise that it is a lonely place without faith and they don't want to face death without it. A lot of people return to their faith when faced with death or terminal illness.

They will return to whatever faith that takes them up to heaven's door, where ever that is, and Peter will be there with a guest list, Sorry you names not down and you are not getting in, you have lived a decent life and not harmed anyone but Catholics only here, no prods, Jews, newborn christians, Hindus...........

Sure just say before you die I'm sorry for all my sins and as god is very forgiving, then you're sorted.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 12, 2013, 01:27:13 PM

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

t

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

My family are Atheists, Agnostics and Liberal Catholics as far as I can tell. I myself was a Liberal Catholic with no time for the Pope and my own views on religion rather than following dogma, I progresses to becoming Agnostic briefly and then realised it was moronic and realised I was an Atheist. I actually started to think God couldn't be possible before my teens about the time I stopped believing in Santa, somehow managed to ignore my better judgement for several years and adhere to the bullshit of pretending just maybe. I think lots of Religious on here are just afraid to accept they really deep down know God couldn't possibly exist.

Maybe that's what Faith is - hoping for or wanting to believe in a higher power.
There are no atheists in a foxhole, so they say!

Quote from: 02 on February 12, 2013, 01:06:41 PM
I'm not religious so not really bothered about what the church does or doesn't do, but I don't really understand this modernising agenda. Clubs are entitled to have rules and if you don't like them then don't sign up!

A fair number of us werent really asked whether we wanted to sign up.

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 01:35:08 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 12, 2013, 01:27:13 PM

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

t

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

My family are Atheists, Agnostics and Liberal Catholics as far as I can tell. I myself was a Liberal Catholic with no time for the Pope and my own views on religion rather than following dogma, I progresses to becoming Agnostic briefly and then realised it was moronic and realised I was an Atheist. I actually started to think God couldn't be possible before my teens about the time I stopped believing in Santa, somehow managed to ignore my better judgement for several years and adhere to the bullshit of pretending just maybe. I think lots of Religious on here are just afraid to accept they really deep down know God couldn't possibly exist.

You are quite typical of a lot of people today. Born into a Catholic family, rebel, declare that their is no God and go about your life.

Most that go down that path will return to their religion in later life when they realise that it is a lonely place without faith and they don't want to face death without it. A lot of people return to their faith when faced with death or terminal illness.

What if you keep your options open when you are facing death? Pray to all of the religions. Be pretty shite if you got up there and Peter was called Osama and was wearing a turban!! Unless there are separate heaven's for different religions, all very complicated

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0212-mahony-pope-20130212,0,5122056.story

Mahony voting for a new pope rankles some Catholics

Nearly two weeks ago, Los Angeles Archbishop Jose Gomez announced he had removed Cardinal Roger Mahony from all public duties amid revelations that he plotted to conceal child molestation by priests from law enforcement.

But Mahony on Monday found himself back at the center of church business, as one of 117 cardinals who will elect a successor to Pope Benedict XVI.

Mahony was quick to weigh in on the papal news — posting a statement on his online blog at 8:38 a.m., two hours before the archdiocese announced that Gomez would issue his own remarks at the midday Mass at the downtown Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels.

In the posting, Mahony called Benedict an "extraordinary" successor to St. Peter and that he intended to participate in choosing the next pontiff.

"I look forward to traveling to Rome soon to help thank Pope Benedict XVI for his gifted service to the Church, and to participate in the Conclave to elect his successor," Mahony wrote.

Benedict's unexpected decision to step down created a seemingly awkward situation in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, which is reeling over newly released documents showing how church leaders handled the abuse cases. Documents show that Mahony and Bishop Thomas Curry worked to shield abusers from police. Both have since issued detailed apologies.

Gomez wrote in a letter to parishioners last month that the priest files were "brutal and painful reading. The behavior described in these files is terribly sad and evil. There is no excuse, no explaining away what happened to these children."

Gomez wrote that Mahony, his predecessor as leader of the archdiocese, "has expressed his sorrow for his failure to fully protect young people entrusted to his care. Effective immediately, I have informed Cardinal Mahony that he will no longer have any administrative or public duties." A church spokesman later clarified that Mahony remained a priest "in good standing" and that he maintained all his powers as a cardinal.

Mahony is one of 11 U.S. cardinals who will vote for the next pope.

Father Thomas Rausch of Loyola Marymount University said Mahony has no choice in the matter: Church law requires him to vote, along with all cardinals under age 80, he said.

"It is a sacred responsibility of every cardinal of the church who is able to attend the conclave to vote," said Tod Tamberg, archdiocese spokesman.

Still, Mahony's role in selecting a pope drew mixed reactions among Catholics in Southern California.

Manuel Vega, a retired Oxnard police officer who as an altar boy was molested from the age of 12 to 15 by Father Fidencio Silva, said Mahony would bring shame on the Catholic Church by going to Rome to vote.

"Mahony is going without clean hands. His hands are dirty ... from covering up years of sexual abuse. How can he be part of the conclave?" Vega asked.

Other Catholics said they were pleased that Mahony would be voting. They said they hoped that he would bring a more liberal and American point of view to the conclave, which will be dominated by the conservative cardinals whom Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have appointed over the last three decades.

Jane Argento, a parishioner at Holy Family Church in South Pasadena, said she was livid at Mahony when she read about his actions after the archdiocese's release of sex abuse documents. But she said the relatively liberal Mahony reflected her own Catholic convictions about larger roles for women in the church, among other issues. Mahony, she said, was the architect of a pastoral associate program in Los Angeles that had trained several women to run parishes, including her own.

"I'm relieved that Mahony is going," Argento said. "Frankly, it's one more vote for a more progressive church."

Larry Loughlin, 77, a parishioner and social worker, said it was reasonable that Mahony vote, given church rules, and that he was not the only cardinal accused of failing to remove predatory priests from churches and schools. Others include Cardinal Justin Regali, who was accused of ignoring evidence of sex abuse, including rape, in the Philadelphia archdiocese before retiring in 2011.

"Mahony is not the only cardinal to be accused of protecting priests, it is a worldwide crisis," Loughlin said.

Parishioners who attended Monday's midday Mass at the downtown cathedral said they were saddened by news of Benedict's resignation but hailed it as a chance to renew a church still suffering from the repercussions of the abuse scandals. The scandals also appeared to be on the mind of Gomez, who celebrated the Mass and called for prayer "for anyone who has been hurt by a member of the church" and for "the healing for wounds and restoration of trust."

one decision that needs taken before they decide who the pope is going to be is a choice between becoming a broader church or a narrower one.
Broader, embrace social reality, improve role of women, appeal to younger population
Narrower smaller more fundamentalist and devout church.

when that decision is made then the suitable candidate for each role can be found. Given however that maybe 90% of the current voting cardinals (under age of 80) are JPII or Benedict appointees, its likely to be a narrower focus, which could lead to a Italian, Canadian or even an American Pope.
should the cardinals decide that more people on the planet are in their target audience then a Ghanian or Argentinian pontiff could happen. If I remember correctly (unlikely) 42% of catholics live in South America, only 25% in Europe, about 15% in Africa

Quote from: theticklemister on February 12, 2013, 01:23:27 PM

Quote from: ziggy90 on February 12, 2013, 08:46:20 AM

Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2013, 04:48:45 PM

Quote from: Declan on February 11, 2013, 11:55:23 AM
So if the next occupant is from the dark continent ole Nostradumus could have been on the money and we can all start praying for forgiveness or partieing till the end depending on your outlook :D

Nostradumus said the next man is from Roscommon?

Loughglynn/Fairymount to be precise.

Is loughlynn in roscommon. Love the song woodlandsof loughlynn but never had a clue where it was!!!

Yes. There are a lot of suspiciously dark people around there.

Quote from: mouview on February 12, 2013, 02:10:57 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 12, 2013, 01:27:13 PM

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

t

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

My family are Atheists, Agnostics and Liberal Catholics as far as I can tell. I myself was a Liberal Catholic with no time for the Pope and my own views on religion rather than following dogma, I progresses to becoming Agnostic briefly and then realised it was moronic and realised I was an Atheist. I actually started to think God couldn't be possible before my teens about the time I stopped believing in Santa, somehow managed to ignore my better judgement for several years and adhere to the bullshit of pretending just maybe. I think lots of Religious on here are just afraid to accept they really deep down know God couldn't possibly exist.

Maybe that's what Faith is - hoping for or wanting to believe in a higher power.
There are no atheists in a foxhole, so they say!

An American biblebelt preacher came up with that silly phrase.

I counter it with the Red Army winning World War 2.

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 01:35:08 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 12, 2013, 01:27:13 PM

Quote from: EC Unique on February 12, 2013, 10:17:31 AM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on February 11, 2013, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Orior on February 11, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
At the risk of being serious for once, a little bit of reverence wouldn't go amiss.

Despite the rise of religious scepticism, conspiracy theories and hatred for anything to do with the Catholic clergy, there are still a number of people who believe and respect the Church.

t

Are you serious?

As an Atheist and as a Republican why would I show reverence to the Head of a religious cult or a Monarch.

Were you born into an atheist family?

My family are Atheists, Agnostics and Liberal Catholics as far as I can tell. I myself was a Liberal Catholic with no time for the Pope and my own views on religion rather than following dogma, I progresses to becoming Agnostic briefly and then realised it was moronic and realised I was an Atheist. I actually started to think God couldn't be possible before my teens about the time I stopped believing in Santa, somehow managed to ignore my better judgement for several years and adhere to the bullshit of pretending just maybe. I think lots of Religious on here are just afraid to accept they really deep down know God couldn't possibly exist.

You are quite typical of a lot of people today. Born into a Catholic family, rebel, declare that their is no God and go about your life.

Most that go down that path will return to their religion in later life when they realise that it is a lonely place without faith and they don't want to face death without it. A lot of people return to their faith when faced with death or terminal illness.

Me a rebel! I hardly think so. I am quite the conformist.

Cardinal Dolan from the U.S would be young enough to take on the role and was instrumental in the proper handling of the sex abuse cases here under his watch. I think he has what it takes to lead the Church and not be overly swayed by lawyers or lobbyists.

The talk about modernizing the church is just that; talk. A new Pope is not going to come in and change the faith. The Church, the traditions and the Bible will remain the same. What the Catholic World needs is honest, open leadership, a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit, an end to corruption within the ranks of the church and a renewal of faith. I think with the right man this can happen over time. Someone in their 50s could have 20 years to help.

I remain hopeful.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 12, 2013, 04:33:47 PM
Cardinal Dolan from the U.S would be young enough to take on the role and was instrumental in the proper handling of the sex abuse cases here under his watch. I think he has what it takes to lead the Church and not be overly swayed by lawyers or lobbyists.

The talk about modernizing the church is just that; talk. A new Pope is not going to come in and change the faith. The Church, the traditions and the Bible will remain the same. What the Catholic World needs is honest, open leadership, a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit, an end to corruption within the ranks of the church and a renewal of faith. I think with the right man this can happen over time. Someone in their 50s could have 20 years to help.

I remain hopeful deluded.

Nail on Head Iceman, sound common sense

Quote from: The Iceman on February 12, 2013, 04:33:47 PM
Cardinal Dolan from the U.S would be young enough to take on the role and was instrumental in the proper handling of the sex abuse cases here under his watch. I think he has what it takes to lead the Church and not be overly swayed by lawyers or lobbyists.

The talk about modernizing the church is just that; talk. A new Pope is not going to come in and change the faith. The Church, the traditions and the Bible will remain the same. What the Catholic World needs is honest, open leadership, a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit, an end to corruption within the ranks of the church and a renewal of faith. I think with the right man this can happen over time. Someone in their 50s could have 20 years to help.

I remain hopeful.

The Church has been corrupt for centuries. It's just another power-hungry organisation. There was a guy on Matt Cooper this evening going through some of the stuff that happened - murder, affairs, bribery, farce.
It's like a bigger, longer-running version of Fianna Fail.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 12, 2013, 04:33:47 PM
Cardinal Dolan from the U.S would be young enough to take on the role and was instrumental in the proper handling of the sex abuse cases here under his watch. I think he has what it takes to lead the Church and not be overly swayed by lawyers or lobbyists.

The talk about modernizing the church is just that; talk. A new Pope is not going to come in and change the faith. The Church, the traditions and the Bible will remain the same. What the Catholic World needs is honest, open leadership, a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit, an end to corruption within the ranks of the church and a renewal of faith. I think with the right man this can happen over time. Someone in their 50s could have 20 years to help.

I remain hopeful.

Is this the man who opposed extending the statute of limitations on accusations of sexual abuse against clergy?

the self same guy, wouldnt be the biggest fan of gay marriage either..

QuoteTimothy Cardinal Dolan hit Albany for a round of lobbying on issues close to the heart of the Catholic Church, with those ranging from abortion to same-sex marriage.  Per our Glenn Blain, Dolan also spoke at length about a subject arguably as controversial as either of those: The Child Victims Act, which would extend the statute of limitations in clergy sexual abuse cases.

"We feel that this is terribly unjust. It singles [out] the church and it would be -- and I use the word purposefully -- devastating for the life of the church," Dolan told reporters gathered in the LCA.

"And the governor listens. He's a good lawyer. He reminded us of his allegiance to classical jurisprudence that would see a great benefit in the protection of the statute of limitations to see that the innocent of protected and that justice is done," he said.

A bill sponsored by Assemblywoman Margaret Markey would extend the statute of limitations by five years, until victims turn 28, in civil and criminal cases. State Sen. Andrew Lanza has a similar bill in his chamber.

Later, Dolan told reporters of his lobbying against the Child Victims Act, even when judgments are brought in years-old cases involving the church, "the people that -- the perpetrators don't suffer. There is no burden on them. What suffers are the services and the ministries and the apostolates that we're doing now. Because where does the money come from? So the bishops of 30 years ago that allegedly may have re-assigned abusers, they don't suffer. They're dead, all right? So the people that suffer are those who are being served right now by the church. And we feel that is a terribly unjust burden. That schools close and charities shrink, all the good work that the church does."

Dolan also said the bishops have been "contrite" in admitting the church has handled molestation scandals poorly, but is trying to do more now -- and isn't getting credit for that: So it does bother us that the church continues to be a whipping boy and that year after year after year this piece of legislation that feel would unjustly target the church keeps being presented."

Generally, Dolan said his meeting with Cuomo "went very well."

"We always enjoy our meetings with the governors. But with Gov. Cuomo, they are particularly friendly and substantive," Dolan said. "I don't mind telling you we thanked him and congratulated him that he seems to have restored a sense of trust and confidence, competence in state government. And we thanked him for that."

Dolan said the bishops expressed their concerns about the Reproductive Health Act:

"For one it seems to be predicated upon almost a paranoia that abortion rights, the abortion license is being restrained or setback. We kind of wish it were and it's not. If anything, we keep seeing it being expanded. Secondly, we are worried about an intrusion of the life of the church. Our attorneys tell us be careful because if this law passes, church health facilities and hospitals may be coerced to doing abortions. We just think there needs to be some movement on the other side... Instead of expanding the license, we'd like to see some prudent restraint about it."

On gay marriage, Dolan said they expressed worries to Cuomo about the implementation of the law -- that it's implementation might intrude on "the integrity of the church."

The Church really needs a Gorbachev figure.

I don't think a being a fan of Gay marriage would be a requirement for the new Pope.....

I think your earlier post about the Church becoming narrower is accurate. I don't think it will remain there. But I think as part of the rebuilding it will have to start off that way and then hopefully grow.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 12, 2013, 08:52:37 PM
I don't think a being a fan of Gay marriage would be a requirement for the new Pope.....

I think your earlier post about the Church becoming narrower is accurate. I don't think it will remain there. But I think as part of the rebuilding it will have to start off that way and then hopefully grow.

How far up the new pope's things to do should equality for women be?

Should they be allowed to join the priesthood?

Quote from: johnneycool on February 13, 2013, 08:44:12 AM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 12, 2013, 08:52:37 PM
I don't think a being a fan of Gay marriage would be a requirement for the new Pope.....

I think your earlier post about the Church becoming narrower is accurate. I don't think it will remain there. But I think as part of the rebuilding it will have to start off that way and then hopefully grow.

How far up the new pope's things to do should equality for women be?

Should they be allowed to join the priesthood?

Any good catholic woman knows her place in the church. In the kitchen.  ;D
(http://splashofmilk.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mrsdoyle.jpg)

Quote from: johnneycool on February 13, 2013, 08:44:12 AM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 12, 2013, 08:52:37 PM
I don't think a being a fan of Gay marriage would be a requirement for the new Pope.....

I think your earlier post about the Church becoming narrower is accurate. I don't think it will remain there. But I think as part of the rebuilding it will have to start off that way and then hopefully grow.

How far up the new pope's things to do should equality for women be?

Should they be allowed to join the priesthood?

In all fairness is that not a no-brainer? Or maybe all people aren't created equal.....

the big man/woman/entity speaketh;


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/feb/12/lightning-vatican-peter-basilica-video (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/feb/12/lightning-vatican-peter-basilica-video)

I hope whoever takes over does away with these food fascism days. Two choices on our canteen menu today - fish or fish. Supermacs will be busy, better head over early....

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 13, 2013, 12:28:48 PM
I hope whoever takes over does away with these food fascism days. Two choices on our canteen menu today - fish or fish. Supermacs will be busy, better head over early....

The fish pie is probably full of Sea horse!

Quote from: heganboy on February 12, 2013, 03:16:14 PM
one decision that needs taken before they decide who the pope is going to be is a choice between becoming a broader church or a narrower one.
Broader, embrace social reality, improve role of women, appeal to younger population
Narrower smaller more fundamentalist and devout church.

when that decision is made then the suitable candidate for each role can be found. Given however that maybe 90% of the current voting cardinals (under age of 80) are JPII or Benedict appointees, its likely to be a narrower focus, which could lead to a Italian, Canadian or even an American Pope.
should the cardinals decide that more people on the planet are in their target audience then a Ghanian or Argentinian pontiff could happen. If I remember correctly (unlikely) 42% of catholics live in South America, only 25% in Europe, about 15% in Africa

Eh? In the Catholic faith, the Pope represents Christ on Earth, he does not there to represent the members of the Church. If said members don't like that aspect of the Catholic Church and faith, they are free to go elsewhere. Therefore it's not the Church that has to decide whether or not they will be "broader" or "narrower" but those who follow.

Quote from: heganboy on February 12, 2013, 08:29:03 PM
the self same guy, wouldnt be the biggest fan of gay marriage either..

He's a Catholic Cardinal. If he was fan of gay marriage or believed in it he wouldn't be a Catholic Cardinal, he would be excommunicated.

Quote from: muppet on February 12, 2013, 08:38:46 PM
The Church really needs a Gorbachev figure.

An atheist Marxist materialist?

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 01:30:47 PM

Quote from: heganboy on February 12, 2013, 08:29:03 PM
the self same guy, wouldnt be the biggest fan of gay marriage either..

He's a Catholic Cardinal. If he was fan of gay marriage or believed in it he wouldn't be a Catholic Cardinal, he would be excommunicated.

So how many priests were excommunicated for having gay relationships with young boys, or is pedophilia not considered an excommunication-able offence in canon law? 

Quote from: johnneycool on February 13, 2013, 08:44:12 AM
How far up the new pope's things to do should equality for women be?

Should they be allowed to join the priesthood?

Why do you equate equality with women being allowed to be Catholic priests? Catholics believe that a priest acts in the person and body of Christ. He wasn't a woman, hence hence it would be nonsensical to have a woman represent the body of Christ, his mother maybe not not Him. IMO this is similar to using equality arguments to insist men be allowed give birth to children. Catholics believe men and women are equal but different and complementary.

Quote from: johnneycool on February 13, 2013, 01:39:43 PM
So how many priests were excommunicated for having gay relationships with young boys, or is pedophilia not considered an excommunication-able offence in canon law?

I've no idea how many were excommunicated, presumably all those who professed it was okay with the Catholic faith to do so. Those who repented, I'd guess weren't excommunicated.

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 01:43:06 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on February 13, 2013, 08:44:12 AM
How far up the new pope's things to do should equality for women be?

Should they be allowed to join the priesthood?

Why do you equate equality with women being allowed to be Catholic priests? Catholics believe that a priest acts in the person and body of Christ. He wasn't a woman, hence hence it would be nonsensical to have a woman represent the body of Christ, his mother maybe not not Him. IMO this is similar to using equality arguments to insist men be allowed give birth to children. Catholics believe men and women are equal but different and complementary.

Were you one of the ones that left Mass one Sunday when the catholic church said that republican sympathisers were not welcome? There was a right few that left that day, are they allowed back now?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2013, 01:47:00 PM
Were you one of the ones that left Mass one Sunday when the catholic church said that republican sympathisers were not welcome? There was a right few that left that day, are they allowed back now?

Not sure what you are talking about - the statement read from the pulpit after Enniskillen? Yes, I think I did, but I'm not sure of the relevance. That was a statement from a Catholic Bishop. A bishop on his own cannot set, define or amend matters of faith, only interpret it and administer his diocese. Any Catholic is free to disagree with a bishop if they believe he is misinterpreting the magisterium.

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 01:52:12 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 13, 2013, 01:47:00 PM
Were you one of the ones that left Mass one Sunday when the catholic church said that republican sympathisers were not welcome? There was a right few that left that day, are they allowed back now?

Not sure what you are talking about - the statement read from the pulpit after Enniskillen? Yes, I think I did, but I'm not sure of the relevance. That was a statement from a Catholic Bishop. A bishop on his own cannot set, define or amend matters of faith, only interpret it and administer his diocese. Any Catholic is free to disagree with a bishop if they believe he is misinterpreting the magisterium.

Cardinal O'Fee was it not? It was read out at every church so I'd say it got the backing from higher office, my point is that you picked to give up going to church because of their stance which is fine but would backed the church for not being more modern and try and appeal to a wider public.

I can't remember that rule being changed and they lost a right few that day

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 01:43:06 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on February 13, 2013, 08:44:12 AM
How far up the new pope's things to do should equality for women be?

Should they be allowed to join the priesthood?

Why do you equate equality with women being allowed to be Catholic priests? Catholics believe that a priest acts in the person and body of Christ. He wasn't a woman, hence hence it would be nonsensical to have a woman represent the body of Christ, his mother maybe not not Him. IMO this is similar to using equality arguments to insist men be allowed give birth to children. Catholics believe men and women are equal but different and complementary.

Come on! There's no similarity in the argument. Gender has nothing to do with being a good priest or being Christ's representative. Clearly it is central to the "giving birth" scenario you mention.

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 13, 2013, 03:00:04 PM
Come on! There's no similarity in the argument. Gender has nothing to do with being a good priest or being Christ's representative. Clearly it is central to the "giving birth" scenario you mention.

The idea of the priest acting in the person and body of Christ is central to Catholic theology. If Catholics today don't know the central tenets of their own faith well they hardly have the right to demand that they're changed to suit them. They'd be better off heading for the exit and joining something else more suitable. 

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 03:37:13 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 13, 2013, 03:00:04 PM
Come on! There's no similarity in the argument. Gender has nothing to do with being a good priest or being Christ's representative. Clearly it is central to the "giving birth" scenario you mention.

The idea of the priest acting in the person and body of Christ is central to Catholic theology. If Catholics today don't know the central tenets of their own faith well they hardly have the right to demand that they're changed to suit them. They'd be better off heading for the exit and joining something else more suitable.

This is what heganboy and I both referred to. I believe the Church has to become narrower with a strong group of devout followers who believe and agree with the teachings. No more pick and mix, no more talk of catering to the majority or popular opinion - just a church of believers in every sense of the word. From there it can grow and broaden.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 04:00:38 PM
This is what heganboy and I both referred to. I believe the Church has to become narrower with a strong group of devout followers who believe and agree with the teachings. No more pick and mix, no more talk of catering to the majority or popular opinion - just a church of believers in every sense of the word. From there it can grow and broaden.

Blessed are those who have seen what the leadership of the RC church are like and yet "still" believe in it

I think Skull that might be your misunderstanding or misjudgement in all of this.
I don't have to believe in the "people", I have to believe that God by His Holy Spirit will prevail. The problems of the Church have been human problems. And if you don't believe that you don't have to. But that's what I believe. When the church is reconciled, it won't be through the works of people, but God.

Why does he allow these problems if he has the power to reconcile the church?

Free will. Look it up.
Same reason mayogodhelpusall hasn't had a run in with a bolt of lightning..... several times over just to make sure ;)

You just have to read a few posts here to see why the Church will not survive long.

We have fundamentalism sneering at any thinking that remotely differs, while insisting that a return to even more fundamentalism is the only way forward.

As I said the Church needs a Gorbachev figure, not the Marxist that made Ulick drool, but the figure that brought a failing organisation into the present.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 05:28:25 PM
I think Skull that might be your misunderstanding or misjudgement in all of this.
I don't have to believe in the "people", I have to believe that God by His Holy Spirit will prevail. The problems of the Church have been human problems. And if you don't believe that you don't have to. But that's what I believe. When the church is reconciled, it won't be through the works of people, but God.

You remind me of my grandmother's outlook when I was in school.
When I did well in an exam, that was down to God, because she lit the blessed candle.
If I didn't do well, that was my own bloody fault and God and the candle took no blame.

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 06:10:01 PM
As I said the Church needs a Gorbachev figure, not the Marxist that made Ulick drool, but the figure that brought a failing organisation into the present.

A great success he made of that...

Amazing how the invisible man in the sky always gets credit for the good stuff but man gets the blame for all the bad stuff.  Plane crashes, hundred people die, but one well-padded baby survives. Response of the God squad? "It's a miracle!"  I wonder how the plane crash and the deaths of all those people fitted into his great "plan."

Then there's the natural disasters where the invisible man in the sky seems to get off scot free.

Half a city obliterated by a superstorm and thousands of people left without power for weeks, but a statue of the virgin Mary survives. Response of the God squad?  "It's a miracle!"

It'd make you sick.

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 06:24:09 PM

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 06:10:01 PM
As I said the Church needs a Gorbachev figure, not the Marxist that made Ulick drool, but the figure that brought a failing organisation into the present.

A great success he made of that...

In comparison to what went before, I agree.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
Free will. Look it up.
Same reason mayogodhelpusall hasn't had a run in with a bolt of lightning..... several times over just to make sure ;)

Eating a whole lot of Cod today were ya Iceman.

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 06:51:17 PM

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 06:24:09 PM

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 06:10:01 PM
As I said the Church needs a Gorbachev figure, not the Marxist that made Ulick drool, but the figure that brought a failing organisation into the present.

A great success he made of that...

In comparison to what went before, I agree.

Muppet, what are you talking about and what has it got to do with the Pope?

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 08:04:27 PM

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 06:51:17 PM

Quote from: Ulick on February 13, 2013, 06:24:09 PM

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 06:10:01 PM
As I said the Church needs a Gorbachev figure, not the Marxist that made Ulick drool, but the figure that brought a failing organisation into the present.

A great success he made of that...

In comparison to what went before, I agree.

Muppet, what are you talking about and what has it got to do with the Pope?

Gorbachev brought the USSR and indeed Eastern Europe out of its disastrous communist past and into the modern world.

IMHO the Church needs a figure to do something similar.

I don't think anyone is sneering at anyone Muppet.
Play the ball san

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 08:08:49 PM
I don't think anyone is sneering at anyone Muppet.
Play the ball san

You proclaim the church should only be for "a strong group of devout followers who believe and agree with the teachings". No doubt you include yourself in this exclusive group. You are the one attacking people who think differently to you basically excluding them from your view of the church.

Play the ball yourself.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
Free will. Look it up.
Same reason mayogodhelpusall hasn't had a run in with a bolt of lightning..... several times over just to make sure ;)

If he allows free will, and this causes the problems how is he going to reconcile it - surely he would have to remove free will.
How can he take the credit for the good and not be involved in the bad.

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 08:06:35 PM
Gorbachev brought the USSR and indeed Eastern Europe out of its disastrous communist past and into the modern world.

IMHO the Church needs a figure to do something similar.

Nonsense Gorbachev was deposed after a failed coup.

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 08:12:46 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 08:08:49 PM
I don't think anyone is sneering at anyone Muppet.
Play the ball san

You proclaim the church should only be for "a strong group of devout followers who believe and agree with the teachings". No doubt you include yourself in this exclusive group. You are the one attacking people who think differently to you basically excluding them from your view of the church.

Play the ball yourself.

I didn't proclaim anything. I agreed with Heganboy's initial line of thinking that the church would become narrower in focus and if you want more fundamentalist. I don't know why you would be so upset about that or how I was playing you or anyone else by agreeing with that.

Like any organisation, if you don't agree then find another one you do agree with. If you don't agree with any religious belief system then don't get involved in an discussion you have no real contribution to and perhaps your agenda is only to annoy the folks that do care.
I don't know why the church should change the rules to suit you or anyone else.

Jesus said "Follow me" he didn't ask what way is Muppet headed and everyone else and say "anything goes there lads". If you dont want to follow Him, then don't.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 10:44:25 PM

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 08:12:46 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 08:08:49 PM
I don't think anyone is sneering at anyone Muppet.
Play the ball san

You proclaim the church should only be for "a strong group of devout followers who believe and agree with the teachings". No doubt you include yourself in this exclusive group. You are the one attacking people who think differently to you basically excluding them from your view of the church.

Play the ball yourself.

I didn't proclaim anything. I agreed with Heganboy's initial line of thinking that the church would become narrower in focus and if you want more fundamentalist. I don't know why you would be so upset about that or how I was playing you or anyone else by agreeing with that.

Like any organisation, if you don't agree then find another one you do agree with. If you don't agree with any religious belief system then don't get involved in an discussion you have no real contribution to and perhaps your agenda is only to annoy the folks that do care.
I don't know why the church should change the rules to suit you or anyone else.

Jesus said "Follow me" he didn't ask what way is Muppet headed and everyone else and say "anything goes there lads". If you dont want to follow Him, then don't.

Iceman, don't you agree in all objectivity, the "church" is a daft notion and there is a high possibility that following its nonsense is a sign of a weak character and a limited world view.

Quote from: theskull1 on February 13, 2013, 04:25:52 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 04:00:38 PM
This is what heganboy and I both referred to. I believe the Church has to become narrower with a strong group of devout followers who believe and agree with the teachings. No more pick and mix, no more talk of catering to the majority or popular opinion - just a church of believers in every sense of the word. From there it can grow and broaden.

Blessed are those who have seen what the leadership of the RC church are like and yet "still" believe in it

Quote from: The Iceman on February 13, 2013, 05:28:25 PM
I think Skull that might be your misunderstanding or misjudgement in all of this.
I don't have to believe in the "people", I have to believe that God by His Holy Spirit will prevail. The problems of the Church have been human problems. And if you don't believe that you don't have to. But that's what I believe. When the church is reconciled, it won't be through the works of people, but God.

Metaphysical hogwash Iceman.

Dont waste your time debating with the godless Iceman, they have little to say  and an offensive way of saying it, but then whats the point of being ignorant if you cant show it. Just give them your blessing and leave them to wrestle with their own demons

Attention fellow atheists: If you're debating god with a believer over the age of 50 then your chances of changing his mind are slim. But if you must debate, try to play the ball and not the man.  By all means attack the idea of the god hypothesis, but try not to cast aspersions on the character of people who still cling to those old beliefs.  I'm probably guilty of it myself on occasion but it's something we should try to avoid.

QuoteIf you're debating god with a believer over the age of 50 then your chances of changing his mind are slim

Why would you want to change their mind in the first place?

Interesting thoughts from Oz here on it - http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/02/14/inside-the-vatican-west-wing-meets-the-da-vinci-code/?wpmp_switcher=mobile&wpmp_tp=1 (http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/02/14/inside-the-vatican-west-wing-meets-the-da-vinci-code/?wpmp_switcher=mobile&wpmp_tp=1)

Quote from: Pangurban on February 14, 2013, 04:56:17 AM
Dont waste your time debating with the godless Iceman, they have little to say  and an offensive way of saying it, but then whats the point of being ignorant if you cant show it. Just give them your blessing and leave them to wrestle with their own demons

I think you can safely differentiate between god from the debacle that is the most holy roman catholic church,.

auld matthew had it right and 2000 years later it's back the same way.

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

21-12 Then Jesus entered the temple[c] and drove out all who were selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 He said to them, "It is written,

'My house shall be called a house of prayer';
    but you are making it a den of robbers."

People here call me Godless and an Atheist and then accuse me of playing the man.

The hypocrisy is as staggering as it is hilarious.

Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
People here call me Godless and an Atheist and then accuse me of playing the man.

The hypocrisy is as staggering as it is hilarious.

Are you not Godless and an Atheist?

Quote from: deiseach on February 14, 2013, 09:42:09 AM

Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
People here call me Godless and an Atheist and then accuse me of playing the man.

The hypocrisy is as staggering as it is hilarious.

Are you not Godless and an Atheist?

Nope, my difficulty is the with the Church and the spoofers that populate it.

Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2013, 09:45:50 AM

Quote from: deiseach on February 14, 2013, 09:42:09 AM

Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
People here call me Godless and an Atheist and then accuse me of playing the man.

The hypocrisy is as staggering as it is hilarious.

Are you not Godless and an Atheist?

Nope, my difficulty is the with the Church and the spoofers that populate it.

Okay. I wouldn't have thought being called Godless and an Atheist is necessarily an insult, but it's playing the man all right.

Quote from: deiseach on February 14, 2013, 09:50:10 AM

Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2013, 09:45:50 AM

Quote from: deiseach on February 14, 2013, 09:42:09 AM

Quote from: muppet on February 14, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
People here call me Godless and an Atheist and then accuse me of playing the man.

The hypocrisy is as staggering as it is hilarious.

Are you not Godless and an Atheist?

Nope, my difficulty is the with the Church and the spoofers that populate it.

Okay. I wouldn't have thought being called Godless and an Atheist is necessarily an insult, but it's playing the man all right.

The thing is if you are discussing people's beliefs then you have to 'play the man'. Your beliefs and yourself can't really be separated.

Quote from: muppet on February 13, 2013, 06:10:01 PM
You just have to read a few posts here to see why the Church will not survive long.

We have fundamentalism sneering at any thinking that remotely differs, while insisting that a return to even more fundamentalism is the only way forward.

As I said the Church needs a Gorbachev figure, not the Marxist that made Ulick drool, but the figure that brought a failing organisation into the present.

I think there will be a schism . Europe to leave the fundamentalists in Africa and the US. Not sure where South America will fit. The Church of England is split down the middle on gay rights . And whatever church emerges is going to have to come to terms with the reality of climate change. Because god isn't going to do anything about it and blaming it on the gays is pointless .

Quote from: Pangurban on February 14, 2013, 04:56:17 AM
Dont waste your time debating with the godless Iceman, they have little to say  and an offensive way of saying it, but then whats the point of being ignorant if you cant show it. Just give them your blessing and leave them to wrestle with their own demons

Regarding your point about there being no point being ignorant if you cannot show it, is this why so many had ashes on their face yesterday?

QuoteRegarding your point about there being no point being ignorant if you cannot show it,

Perhaps something to bear in mind when posting?

There are so many contradictions within scripture, theology etc that I think the Church just needs to boil it down to brass tacks. A few simple things like the below are all we should focus on - not telling people you can or can't do this or that. Like - you have free will but you can't do this, that or the other!

1) All people are created equal and are equal in the eyes of God.
2) It is not our job to judge other people - try to help if you think they need it but leave the judging to the big guy.
3) Try to be a good person and use your talents to do good.

Number 2 is a hard one to live by but we should try to.

A very good  general principle is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

QuoteIt is not our job to judge other people - try to help if you think they need it but leave the judging to the big guy.

Is it not also the case that for evil to succeed it is only necessary for good men to do nothing?

Quote from: armaghniac on February 14, 2013, 01:02:36 PM

Is it not also the case that for evil to succeed it is only necessary for good men to do nothing?

Not sure about that one, might need to ask Sean Brady his interpretation of that!

You cant run a religion without smoke and mirrors. It has to be deep, mysterious, verbose, not of this world etc etc for the masses to latch onto. Pulls people out of their own consciousness. Wheres the fun in just trying to live out a purpose driven life? No reason that mindset/philosophy if developed in schools wouldn't make for a suitable replacement to organised religion but it gives people back the ultimate control.

Blinding faith and things like free will seem like a cop out by those in charge. By looking back on a book that has been translated many times I'm sure there are areas that have been, well, greatly exaggerated! The Old testament is daft (but if ye have faith..) and the New testament isn't much better, as there are countless faiths that view it differently, who's right?

Religion was able to thrive years ago because of the hocus pocus that the church used to keep people involved, it served it's purpose in relaying stories of good and bad and giving people morals, I'm all for that and use that on my own kids though I don't read it from a book.

It doesn't really work in modern times and this is seen from the dropping of numbers at Mass, not just here but all over the world. It works better in countries that education and poverty is bad, no great surprise then that these religions do so well there.

I don't know how much of that skull or milltown is necessarily true.

I think the faithful can have a great purpose driven life. To love God and love others. In the eyes of the faithful, nothing else can come close or be as fulfilling. Even the folks who don't believe in God and talk about the Cosmos or the universe, gurus like Bob Proctor or Zig Ziggler all say for ultimate happiness we should live a life in service to others and in gratitude for what we have - surely that is close to the model I described?

I don't need to go to Mass for the readings or the prayers. I go to Mass for the Eucharist. If you are a Roman Catholic then you believe in the teachings on Eucharist, if you don't then you are not. I go to Mass for that. All the instructions and guidance we need are in the catechism and supported by the Bible. If Mass numbers are dropping it isn't because "smoke and mirrors" no longer work, its because people don't believe in the Eucharist, if they did, they would be there.

When we look at the "debate" as a few mentioned, there is one stark difference in both sides. Believers are debating for God to bring more people closer to Him. Non-believers are debating against God for themselves. Hoping that by changing someone's mind they justify their own life and try to fill their emptiness.

The world is changing. Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over. It's happening in front of us all. The only way I can face that, for me and my family, is with God. If you can't see that or don't agree with that then I wish you all the best. I'm really at peace in life and in my faith.

You don't need a church with bullshit rules for any of that.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
If Mass numbers are dropping it isn't because "smoke and mirrors" no longer work, its because people don't believe in the Eucharist, if they did, they would be there.

When we look at the "debate" as a few mentioned, there is one stark difference in both sides. Believers are debating for God to bring more people closer to Him. Non-believers are debating against God for themselves. Hoping that by changing someone's mind they justify their own life and try to fill their emptiness.

The world is changing. Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over. It's happening in front of us all. The only way I can face that, for me and my family, is with God. If you can't see that or don't agree with that then I wish you all the best. I'm really at peace in life and in my faith.

In order

If Mass numbers are dropping  it isn't because "smoke and mirrors" no longer work, its because people don't believe in the Eucharist , if they did, they would be there. 

You dont see the comical irony here IM?  :o 
So you reckon Brendan Smyth was dishing out the body of christ whilst he was dishing out abuse to kids? And god was OK with that?

Non-believers are debating against God for themselves. Hoping that by changing someone's mind they justify their own life and try to fill their emptiness.
This is the bit youre missing. There is no emptiness to fill. The searching for something which isnt there stops. The most liberating of experiences from my perspective.

Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over. It's happening in front of us all.
I'd contend that is absolutely horsesh1t. Its just youve more media coverage than you ever had. And no one instills fear and control into society better than the US media.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
The world is changing. Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over.

http://www.insidescience.org/content/mystery-new-yorks-falling-crime-rate-remains-unsolved/937

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 14, 2013, 04:15:05 PM
You don't need a church with bullshit rules for any of that.

You need a Church and priests for the Eucharist. There cannot be an argument on that one. No priests - no Eucharist.

So you'd be better receiving the eucharist from Brendan Smyth than receiving none at all?

Just wondering how many posters on here didn't get married in a Church?

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 04:40:27 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 14, 2013, 04:15:05 PM
You don't need a church with bullshit rules for any of that.

You need a Church and priests for the Eucharist. There cannot be an argument on that one. No priests - no Eucharist.

Yeah but leave the makey up rules at the door. Just celebrate the Eucharist and help people to be good and use their talents to realise their potential. Let people live their lives, don't try to control them. Show them a good path but they must choose themselves, not be scared or threatened into it.

It's all about money and control really isn't it?

Quote from: Hardy on February 14, 2013, 04:34:07 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
The world is changing. Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over.

http://www.insidescience.org/content/mystery-new-yorks-falling-crime-rate-remains-unsolved/937

That's very interesting indeed.

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 14, 2013, 04:49:37 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 04:40:27 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 14, 2013, 04:15:05 PM
You don't need a church with bullshit rules for any of that.

You need a Church and priests for the Eucharist. There cannot be an argument on that one. No priests - no Eucharist.

Yeah but leave the makey up rules at the door. Just celebrate the Eucharist and help people to be good and use their talents to realise their potential. Let people live their lives, don't try to control them. Show them a good path but they must choose themselves, not be scared or threatened into it.

It's all about money and control really isn't it?

How is it about control? I haven't been scared or threatened into anything. Thats pre-Vatican II stuff (didn't realise you were that old ;) )
What 'makey up rules' are you talking about?

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 14, 2013, 04:49:37 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 04:40:27 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 14, 2013, 04:15:05 PM
You don't need a church with bullshit rules for any of that.

You need a Church and priests for the Eucharist. There cannot be an argument on that one. No priests - no Eucharist.

Yeah but leave the makey up rules at the door. Just celebrate the Eucharist and help people to be good and use their talents to realise their potential. Let people live their lives, don't try to control them. Show them a good path but they must choose themselves, not be scared or threatened into it.

It's all about money and control really isn't it?

Sadly that appears to be the case. The sex scandals have really demonstrated this, the mantra seems to be protect what the Church has at all costs, forget the children.

Added to the sex scandals is the fact that in the internet age and after a couple of generations of good education, people just don't blindly accept some of the nonsensical stuff any more.

Quote from: Billys Boots on February 14, 2013, 04:52:05 PM

Quote from: Hardy on February 14, 2013, 04:34:07 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
The world is changing. Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over.

http://www.insidescience.org/content/mystery-new-yorks-falling-crime-rate-remains-unsolved/937

That's very interesting indeed.

I have read two different books that bring up the subject and claim to have the answer:
the Tipping Point
Freakenomics.

Can't remember which was which but one book says abortion is to thank for the crime rate as a lot of the would be criminals from low income broken families are aborted before they have a chance to be bad. Most criminals come from borken homes and low income families the book says.

The other book says the change in the police force - numbers, zero tolerance and visual presence. If you look at crime in Chicago today they might be on to something.

I think there is a lot of factors at play. But yes very interesting.

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
The world is changing. Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over. It's happening in front of us all.

I know you say it's happening in front of us all but where exactly?

When I was growing up, there was plenty of religion (but maybe not so much God) and Ireland really wasn't a nice place.  Kids were beaten in schools, raped in orphanages, "fallen" women packed off.  Being a bit odd was enough to trumped off to a mental homes.  Many things that don't happen today...

Sure there are wars going on in the world but past conflicts were probably a lot worse in many ways.

I see evil, but by what measure to you say it s more apparent than before?  How is it taking over?

/Jim.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on February 14, 2013, 05:03:03 PM

Quote from: The Iceman on February 14, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
The world is changing. Evil is more apparent now than ever before. God is slowly being pushed out and evil takes over. It's happening in front of us all.

I know you say it's happening in front of us all but where exactly?

When I was growing up, there was plenty of religion (but maybe not so much God) and Ireland really wasn't a nice place.  Kids were beaten in schools, raped in orphanages, "fallen" women packed off.  Being a bit odd was enough to trumped off to a mental homes.  Many things that don't happen today...

Sure there are wars going on in the world but past conflicts were probably a lot worse in many ways.

I see evil, but by what measure to you say it s more apparent than before?  How is it taking over?

/Jim.

Good line that.

Secret Vatican Report


http://news.yahoo.com/did-secret-vatican-report-gay-sex-blackmail-bring-160458902.html

Quote from: DrinkingHarp on February 23, 2013, 02:20:17 PM
Secret Vatican Report


http://news.yahoo.com/did-secret-vatican-report-gay-sex-blackmail-bring-160458902.html

Anyone know what sort of paper La Repubblica is? Credible or not?

From wiki

The newspaper is regarded as on the moderate left wing of the political spectrum, although it has never failed to criticise politicians or parties with similar views. This includes, among other things, the so-called "moral problem" of Italian politics (first mentioned by Italian politician Enrico Berlinguer) and the fragmentation of left-wing political forces.
The newspaper has always had a quite critical line towards Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, especially criticizing his conflict of interest as both entrepreneur and politician. In August 2009, Berlusconi sued the newspaper [9] after it published ten questions addressed to him (and which he refused to answer, most of these questions involved his "escort scandal".
La Repubblica is also known for its stand against the Catholic Church, often criticizing it, especially on ethical topics and its interference in these issues, which were vehemently denounced by Scalfari.
On the 20 November 2007, the newspaper exclusively revealed some wiretapping transcripts between certain RAI and Mediaset directors, aimed at modifying some parts of the TV scheduling of 2005 (regarding the death of the Pope and the regional elections of 2005).

(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/kiliman1/pope-expulsion-from-paradise_zpsbe3b6ae0.jpg)

Interesting.


Why did Pope Benedict XVI resign?

By Mark Dowd

BBC Radio 4


Benedict XVI shocked the world in February when he became the first pope to resign in almost 600 years. But attention shifted quickly to the succession, and the election of the new Pope, Francis. Amid the drama, one question was never fully answered - why did Benedict quit?

Pope Benedict's official resignation statement offered his waning physical and mental powers as the explanation, but it's long been suspected there was more to it. And my inquiries have confirmed that.

I went to visit the Nigerian Cardinal, Francis Arinze at his apartment overlooking St Peter's. He's one of the most senior figures in the church and knows the Vatican like the back of his hand. He was even, for a short time in March of this year, mooted as a possible successor to Pope Benedict. And he was one of the select handful of senior church officials who were in the Pope's Apostolic Palace when he broke the news to them personally.

I raised the subject of the scandals that had preceded the Pope's bombshell decision and, in particular the Vatileaks affair in which the Pope's butler, Paolo Gabriele, had leaked confidential documents exposing Vatican power struggles. Could that have been a factor in his resignation? His answer was unexpected.


'I have had to recognise my incapacity'
After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry... In today's world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the barque of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognise my incapacity to adequately fulfil the ministry entrusted to me.

Resignation statement, 11 February 2013

"It is legitimate for a person to speculate and say 'Maybe,' because some of his documents were taken secretly. It could be one of the reasons," he told me.

"Maybe he was so pained that his own butler leaked out so many letters that a journalist was able to write a book. It can be one of the reasons. I don't expect him to be enjoying that event."

In the Vatican, young ambitious members of the church are advised to "hear a lot, see everything and say nothing". That such a senior figure should essentially countenance a departure from the official line is significant.

Essentially, Pope Benedict was a teaching Pope, a theologian and intellectual. "His idea of hell would be to be sent on a one-week management training seminar," one insider told me. His misfortune was to accede to the papacy at a time that there was a power vacuum, in which a number of middle-ranking members of the Roman curia, the Church's civil service, had turned into "little Borgias" as another clerical official put it.

Don't take my word for it, this assessment comes from the highest source - the current leader of the Church. And Pope Francis does not mince his words. "The court is the leprosy of the papacy," he has said. He has described the curia as "narcissistic" and "self-referential". This is what Joseph Ratzinger had to deal with.

Over a period of time dating back to final years of Pope John Paul II, the heart of the HQ of the Roman Church had become dominated by infighting cliques. This was what the Pope's butler, Paolo Gabriele said he wanted to expose by photocopying and leaking all those documents.

Benedict XVI pardoned his former butler Paolo Gabriele (centre) But Gabriele said his relationship with Pope Benedict was like "father and son". So why did he act in a way that was sure to embarrass a man he was clearly close to?


What is the Roman Curia?

Means "royal court" in Latin
Administrative body of the Holy See - the universal government of the Catholic Church
Pope delegates members of the Curia to oversee certain aspects of Catholic life and doctrine
Composed of many offices based in the Vatican City, including Secretariat of State - which looks after foreign and diplomatic relations - and a number of congregations and tribunals
Roman Catholic Church: Rites and doctrine

"He said he had seen many ugly things inside the Vatican. At a certain point he couldn't take it any more," says his lawyer Cristiana Arru, clutching her rosary beads, in only her second ever public interview. "And so he looked for a way out. He says he saw lies being told. He thought that the Pope was being kept in the dark regarding key events."

Gabriele was found guilty of "aggravated theft" and spent three months in custody before being pardoned by the Pope. But that was not the end of it. The Church's leader set up an inquiry into the whole affair.

Three Cardinals produced a 300-page report. It was meant to be kept under lock and key, but a leading Italian daily claimed it had been briefed on its contents. The result? More embarrassing leaks, this time with claims of a network of gay priests exerting "inappropriate influence" inside the Vatican.

The headaches continued to mount for the German Pope. In many journalistic endeavours, "follow the money" is good advice for getting to grips with what is really going on, and it applies to the Vatican too. One of the most eyebrow-raising stories we encountered involved an annual Nativity scene in St Peter's Square.

Benedict XVI in front of the nativity scene in St Peter's Square in 2009
For years, deals were struck in which the Vatican paid several times the market rate. When a whistleblower tried to reform the system, officials in the papal court persuaded a hapless Pope Benedict to promote him to a role 4,000 miles from Rome.

Ten things about a Pope's retirement

Benedict XVI: A reluctant leader?

What's it like to be a prisoner of the Vatican?

Similar antics occurred at the Vatican Bank, for years a source of unwelcome headlines for the Catholic Church. It was set up to help religious orders and foundations transfer much-needed money to far-flung parts of the world. But when a sizeable proportion of the transactions are in cash and are being sent to politically unstable parts of the planet, it does not take a genius to see what might go wrong.

It appears that bank officials took key decisions without always informing the Pope. When the board ousted its reforming president, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi (conveniently, on the day that the news of the Gabriele's arrest was getting saturation news coverage), the Pope did not find out until it was too late. He was "very surprised" in the later words of his private secretary. Gotti Tedeschi was an Opus Dei member and thought to be close to the Pope, but in the end this did not protect him.

Did all this prove too much for the ageing Pope Benedict?



Federico Lombardi
Examine the precise words of the papal press spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi: "The Church needed someone with more physical and spiritual energy who would be able to overcome the problems and challenges of governing the church in this ever-changing modern world." Maybe that is as near as you are ever going to get from a senior official that the church had become ungovernable and needed someone else at the helm to stop the rot.

This is a church that now has a huge opportunity to move on and face up to the challenges of the 21st Century. Often seen as remote, its leadership is now canvassing the views of ordinary Catholics on hot-button issues such as contraception and gay marriage. Reform has come on the back of scandal. This is a development that has not gone unnoticed by Cardinal Arinze.

"What you have to remember," he says, "is that God often writes straight on crooked lines."

Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2013, 01:24:04 PM
Why did Pope Benedict XVI resign?By Mark Dowd

BBC Radio 4


Continue reading the main story
In today's MagazineThe Enfield Thunderbolt
Why do public figures choose not to reveal their illness?
How common were Maoist groups in 1970s Britain?
Caption Challenge: Turkey crosses road

Benedict XVI shocked the world in February when he became the first pope to resign in almost 600 years. But attention shifted quickly to the succession, and the election of the new Pope, Francis. Amid the drama, one question was never fully answered - why did Benedict quit?

Pope Benedict's official resignation statement offered his waning physical and mental powers as the explanation, but it's long been suspected there was more to it. And my inquiries have confirmed that.

I went to visit the Nigerian Cardinal, Francis Arinze at his apartment overlooking St Peter's. He's one of the most senior figures in the church and knows the Vatican like the back of his hand. He was even, for a short time in March of this year, mooted as a possible successor to Pope Benedict. And he was one of the select handful of senior church officials who were in the Pope's Apostolic Palace when he broke the news to them personally.

I raised the subject of the scandals that had preceded the Pope's bombshell decision and, in particular the Vatileaks affair in which the Pope's butler, Paolo Gabriele, had leaked confidential documents exposing Vatican power struggles. Could that have been a factor in his resignation? His answer was unexpected.

Continue reading the main story
'I have had to recognise my incapacity'
After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry... In today's world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the barque of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognise my incapacity to adequately fulfil the ministry entrusted to me.

Resignation statement, 11 February 2013

"It is legitimate for a person to speculate and say 'Maybe,' because some of his documents were taken secretly. It could be one of the reasons," he told me.

"Maybe he was so pained that his own butler leaked out so many letters that a journalist was able to write a book. It can be one of the reasons. I don't expect him to be enjoying that event."

In the Vatican, young ambitious members of the church are advised to "hear a lot, see everything and say nothing". That such a senior figure should essentially countenance a departure from the official line is significant.

Essentially, Pope Benedict was a teaching Pope, a theologian and intellectual. "His idea of hell would be to be sent on a one-week management training seminar," one insider told me. His misfortune was to accede to the papacy at a time that there was a power vacuum, in which a number of middle-ranking members of the Roman curia, the Church's civil service, had turned into "little Borgias" as another clerical official put it.

Continue reading the main story
Find out more
Mark Dowd presents The Report on BBC Radio 4 on Thursday 28 November at 20:00 GMT

Listen via the website
Download the programme
The Best of The Report

Don't take my word for it, this assessment comes from the highest source - the current leader of the Church. And Pope Francis does not mince his words. "The court is the leprosy of the papacy," he has said. He has described the curia as "narcissistic" and "self-referential". This is what Joseph Ratzinger had to deal with.

Over a period of time dating back to final years of Pope John Paul II, the heart of the HQ of the Roman Church had become dominated by infighting cliques. This was what the Pope's butler, Paolo Gabriele said he wanted to expose by photocopying and leaking all those documents.

Benedict XVI pardoned his former butler Paolo Gabriele (centre) But Gabriele said his relationship with Pope Benedict was like "father and son". So why did he act in a way that was sure to embarrass a man he was clearly close to?

Continue reading the main story
What is the Roman Curia?

Means "royal court" in Latin
Administrative body of the Holy See - the universal government of the Catholic Church
Pope delegates members of the Curia to oversee certain aspects of Catholic life and doctrine
Composed of many offices based in the Vatican City, including Secretariat of State - which looks after foreign and diplomatic relations - and a number of congregations and tribunals
Roman Catholic Church: Rites and doctrine

"He said he had seen many ugly things inside the Vatican. At a certain point he couldn't take it any more," says his lawyer Cristiana Arru, clutching her rosary beads, in only her second ever public interview. "And so he looked for a way out. He says he saw lies being told. He thought that the Pope was being kept in the dark regarding key events."

Gabriele was found guilty of "aggravated theft" and spent three months in custody before being pardoned by the Pope. But that was not the end of it. The Church's leader set up an inquiry into the whole affair.

Three Cardinals produced a 300-page report. It was meant to be kept under lock and key, but a leading Italian daily claimed it had been briefed on its contents. The result? More embarrassing leaks, this time with claims of a network of gay priests exerting "inappropriate influence" inside the Vatican.

The headaches continued to mount for the German Pope. In many journalistic endeavours, "follow the money" is good advice for getting to grips with what is really going on, and it applies to the Vatican too. One of the most eyebrow-raising stories we encountered involved an annual Nativity scene in St Peter's Square.

Benedict XVI in front of the nativity scene in St Peter's Square in 2009
For years, deals were struck in which the Vatican paid several times the market rate. When a whistleblower tried to reform the system, officials in the papal court persuaded a hapless Pope Benedict to promote him to a role 4,000 miles from Rome.

Continue reading the main story
More from the Magazine
Ten things about a Pope's retirement

Benedict XVI: A reluctant leader?

What's it like to be a prisoner of the Vatican?

Similar antics occurred at the Vatican Bank, for years a source of unwelcome headlines for the Catholic Church. It was set up to help religious orders and foundations transfer much-needed money to far-flung parts of the world. But when a sizeable proportion of the transactions are in cash and are being sent to politically unstable parts of the planet, it does not take a genius to see what might go wrong.

It appears that bank officials took key decisions without always informing the Pope. When the board ousted its reforming president, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi (conveniently, on the day that the news of the Gabriele's arrest was getting saturation news coverage), the Pope did not find out until it was too late. He was "very surprised" in the later words of his private secretary. Gotti Tedeschi was an Opus Dei member and thought to be close to the Pope, but in the end this did not protect him.

Did all this prove too much for the ageing Pope Benedict?

Continue reading the main story
"
Start Quote
The Church needed someone with more physical and spiritual energy"
End Quote
Federico Lombardi
Examine the precise words of the papal press spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi: "The Church needed someone with more physical and spiritual energy who would be able to overcome the problems and challenges of governing the church in this ever-changing modern world." Maybe that is as near as you are ever going to get from a senior official that the church had become ungovernable and needed someone else at the helm to stop the rot.

This is a church that now has a huge opportunity to move on and face up to the challenges of the 21st Century. Often seen as remote, its leadership is now canvassing the views of ordinary Catholics on hot-button issues such as contraception and gay marriage. Reform has come on the back of scandal. This is a development that has not gone unnoticed by Cardinal Arinze.

"What you have to remember," he says, "is that God often writes straight on crooked lines."

ahaaa.. so the new fellas name is francis.. thanks Orangeman I hadn't a clue