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QuoteSinn Féin Newry & Armagh MP Conor Murphy has challenged the Parades Commission to explain their rationale for allowing a Loyalist band parade, of up to 40 bands, to march through Armagh City centre on St Patrick's evening.

Conor Murphy said:

"This is a disastrous decision and one which must be challenged. The leaders of all parties within Armagh Council agreed a council policy statement on the cross community ethos of St Patrick's Day but some parties have displayed a duplicitous nature in their decision to now support this clearly provocative parade.

"For the PSNI to state that there are 'no local concerns or sensitivities' attached to this march is utter nonsense and begs the question, what planet are they living on? That input by the PSNI raises serious questions about their judgement and their knowledge of nationalist feelings on what is clearly seen as a sectarian march.

"The band promoting this application to parade explicitly supports the UVF on their website and this demonstrates their inherent sectarianism which has no place in Armagh on St Patrick's Day.

"The Parades Commission have made a dreadful decision which has the potential to destroy the St Patrick's Day festivities in Armagh which last year attracted over 16000 visitors to the city and damage community relations in the City."CRíOCH/END

Newry Armagh MLA Cathal Boylan, who led a Sinn Féin delagation to meet the Parades Commission yesterday, added,

'We made a very solid argument to the Commission that this parade, which has been held in Killylea since 2005, would have a significant detrimental impact on business in the city. Also given the day it is taking place on there is a very real possibility of a serious negative impact on community relations in Armagh.

'The Commission have said that they accept the organiser's view that they this exercise is a '... genuine desire to build bridges and to open the celebration of St. Patrick to the Protestant / Unionist / Loyalist side of the community.' This is deeply flawed. If it were genuinely the case one must question why the Loyalist Bands Forum walked out of Armagh Council's St. Patrick's Day organising committee? Why did they not approach the Council's St. Patrick's day organising committee this year to take part in the cross community event if this was their genuine desire? This statement is also disrespectful to the many participants in the cross community parade from the Protestant community who have played an active role the last number of years.

So for years now the people of Armagh has bowed to the wishes of Unionists on Armagh Council and their funding threats for the St. Patricks Day celebration and gradual attempt to de-Irishise the festival.  This is surely an attempt to provoke a reaction and I feel they will get one.  For the police force in this town to say there are 'no local concerns or sensitivities' regarding this march is indicative of how they have policed this town for the past few years.

A disgraceful decision by the Parades commission no matter what angle you look at it, (a protestant mate of mine messaged me on Facebook and couldn't believe this got through) and I just hope no-one gets hurt as a result of this.

When i read that this parade had been applied for i laughed, and thought, cheeky hoors.............

The fact it has been approved is mind blowing. There will be a killing session without a shadow of a doubt. You'd almost think it was some kind of premature april fools joke.

I have a very bad feeling about this...

There is live music in Market Street as Part of the parade/festival which is timed to finish at approx 6.30? This parade has been rubber stamped to commence at 7pm, and pass along the same route? What are they going to do, usher everyone onto buses IMMEDIATELY at 6.30 and have thousands of people off the streets in half an hour??

F**KING RIDICULOUS!!!  :o

This will really test the waters of "how far we've come" and just how 'tolerant of the other folks' we are.

As mad as it seems to give this the go ahead, is trouble really inevitable?

Quote from: thejuice on March 08, 2012, 04:03:31 PM
This will really test the waters of "how far we've come" and just how 'tolerant of the other folks' we are.

As mad as it seems to give this the go ahead, is trouble really inevitable?

I don't think its an issue of how far we've come. The 'ach sure let them march brigade will soon be out' I know that, but were does it stop. This is a clear attempt by a sectarian sect of the loyalist community that openly supports the UVF to disrupt a day celebration that most if not all the nationalist community partake in.

I don't give a shit what people want me to interpret St. Patricks Day as but as I have grown up it's a chance to celebrate my Irishness, maybe thats deviated from the people want it to mean, but if the chief of Staff of the good ole US of A can can stand drape himself in all things Green, White and Gold surely I can.

Orange, the colour that is not Gold and it represents these separated brethren who want to join in the fun. Definitely a crazy decision everyone knows what these KTP bands are like.

Quote from: thejuice on March 08, 2012, 04:03:31 PM
This will really test the waters of "how far we've come" and just how 'tolerant of the other folks' we are.

As mad as it seems to give this the go ahead, is trouble really inevitable?

A test of how tolerant we are?! I wouldn't think people opposing it are being intolerant of Protestant culture, but rather rightfully intolerant of what is a sectarian band organising a sectarian march on as provocative a day as possible. How many people will now want to avoid Armagh's St Patrick's festival events for fear of their own safety as a result of this?

Make no mistake, opposing it isn't a sign of intolerance.

sorry lads that's the reason I put up the " " around those phrases. Its the kind of talk that comes up by the hand-wringers around things like this.

and when I said 'we' I mean both sides.

Quote from: thejuice on March 08, 2012, 04:03:31 PM
This will really test the waters of "how far we've come" and just how 'tolerant of the other folks' we are.

As mad as it seems to give this the go ahead, is trouble really inevitable?

There is basically half an hour to get the streets cleared of everyone celebrating St Patricks day. I'd imagine there will be young children waving tricolours etc in Market street when the live music is taking place. The majority of this crowd will probably head down towards the shambles area to "wine and dine" (literally). The Orange march will be going in the same direction, and with half the bands full of drinks and drugs I cant imagine them tolerating much of the Green Brigade.

I hope I'm wrong, but I just cant see a pretty outcome?

What I can see however is police moving on crowds of young people to "clear the streets" for the oncoming march, this is bound to stir-up some tension.... :-/

A disaster waiting to happen.

Heard this a few weeks ago and I thought it was total madness myself.  It's definately not a helpful thing that the band have done.  The band who are arranging it come from outside Armagh and they have held a parade on St Patrick's Day in a village outside the town for the last number of years.  From what I have heard, they moved it because they thought that they may get more of a crowd in Armagh.  However, I've heard one saying that they're staying away and I don't think the crowd will be as good as they've had in recent years.

That said, I'm sure most of you don't know who is in this band and I don't think it's helpful to term them a 'UVF' band* and that most people will be fecked on drink and drugs.  Also, this parade is not 'Orange' as some of you have implied.

*The band who are hosting it was formed long before the UVF.  And I don't mean the modern thugs, I mean the original one.

Quote from: orchard 8195 on March 08, 2012, 05:19:49 PM
A disaster waiting to happen.

I have no interest in these Band Parades, nor have I ever marched anywhere etc. Indeed I have a great distaste for any such displays which are designed to be exercises in coat-trailing and territory-marking etc, and to wind up others.

But in the end, does anyone really need  to be so provoked that they cannot forebear from reacting? Here is what we're talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO-IiIGBFlY&feature=related

And if they must react, can they not confine it to a peaceful demonstration (placards etc)?

For the Parades Commission has not taken this decision lightly:
http://paradescommission.org/parades/?parade=37666

Nor have they merely said "Fire away, lads", as the conditions imposed in their Determination shows:

The Parades Commission's determination is that the following conditions are placed on the organiser and participants in the parade by Cormeen Rising Sons of William Flute Band in Armagh on Saturday, 17 March 2012.

A.   The parade organiser shall ensure that the parade shall begin no earlier than 7:30 pm, and that it shall disperse promptly no later than 10:30 pm.

B.   All participants and supporters in this parade must behave with due regard for the rights, traditions and feelings of others in the vicinity; refrain from using words or behaviour which could reasonably be perceived as intentionally sectarian, provocative, threatening, abusive, insulting or lewd; obey the lawful directions of parade organisers and stewards at all times, from assembly to dispersal; abide by the conditions of the Code of Conduct; and comply with police directions and in accordance with legislation.

C.   Paramilitary-style clothing must not be worn at any time during the parade; flags, bannerettes and symbols relating to a proscribed organisation must in no circumstances be displayed; and musical instruments must not bear any inscription or mark of a proscribed organisation.

D.   When the parade is in progress there shall be no undue stoppages or delays. Where practicable the parade shall stay close to the near side of the road at all times to minimise disruption and to facilitate the passing of vehicular and other traffic.

E.   The organiser shall arrange for the presence of an adequate number of stewards to ensure that all parade participants act in an orderly manner.

F.   The parade organiser shall bring to the attention of stewards the guidance for parade participants contained in Appendices A and B of the Commission's Code of Conduct.  For ease of reference Appendices A and B are reproduced below.

G.   The parade organiser shall ensure that all stewards and participants obey any direction given by the police in relation to this parade.

H.   The parade organiser shall ensure that these conditions are drawn to the attention of all participants.

Finally, the official St.P's Day Parade is due to finish at 4.30 pm - three hours before this Parade commences. Someone said that there will be music in Market Street which ends at 6.30 pm, but on the basis that the Band Parade will only be leaving the Mall at 7 pm, that will surely allow more than half an hour for people to disperse before the Band Parade arrives?

Evil Genius = ''I don't support these bands/rangers/ windsor hate mob/DUP etc but I will always put up a defense for my fellow brethren''

30-40 bands expected, say

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 08, 2012, 06:04:30 PM
I have no interest in these Band Parades, nor have I ever marched anywhere etc. Indeed I have a great distaste for any such displays which are designed to be exercises in coat-trailing and territory-marking etc, and to wind up others.

EG in criticising those who you have no interest in and trying to come up with an idea of why people parade, you are as bad as those people who went to Windsor in the early 1980s and still call NI fans bigots.

Just because you have no idea/ interest does not give you the right to suppose the reasons for people parading.  You should read 'Blood and Thunder', a book written by a Catholic man from CO Monaghan who followed Castlederg Young Loyalists for a year.  He made the point that if the only reason for parading is to "wind others up" as you said, then why are the biggest and most successful parades in loyalist areas?

Has Willie Frazer got anything to do with this.  I had heard a while back that the Whitecross parade was the first of three, including an orange parade in Armagh on St Paddy's Day and an orange parade to the GPO on O'Connell St on Easter Sunday.

When I first heard this, I laughed at the stupidity of him thinking that he would be allowed to do it, but now the Armagh parade is approved, and I think the Dublin parade has been approved as well !!!

What are the parades commission afraid of?  Why don't they just tell them to pick any other day of the year?

Quote from: Feckitt on March 08, 2012, 06:19:05 PM
Has Willie Frazer got anything to do with this.  I had heard a while back that the Whitecross parade was the first of three, including an orange parade in Armagh on St Paddy's Day and an orange parade to the GPO on O'Connell St on Easter Sunday.

When I first heard this, I laughed at the stupidity of him thinking that he would be allowed to do it, but now the Armagh parade is approved, and I think the Dublin parade has been approved as well !!!

What are the parades commission afraid of?  Why don't they just tell them to pick any other day of the year?

FFS, is Willie Frazer the nationalists' bogeyman?  It's got nothing to do with him!

Has it got anything to do with you?

Quote from: Feckitt on March 08, 2012, 06:26:04 PM
Has it got anything to do with you?

lol... no.  See my original post; I think it's a very daft move.

Quote from: Feckitt on March 08, 2012, 06:19:05 PM
What are the parades commission afraid of?  Why don't they just tell them to pick any other day of the year?

Surely they have enough days by now? How do they not get bored of it.

This is going to be good.

Plenty of people out celebrating St Paddy's, no doubt drinking all day. Take drunk nationalists and have 40 loyalist bands and their supporters, also drunk and let them march through a mainly nationalist town, on St Paddy's of all days.

Good waste of resources spent policing this shite. Well done to all.

Quote from: fitzroyalty on March 08, 2012, 06:31:14 PM
This is going to be good.

Plenty of people out celebrating St Paddy's, no doubt drinking all day. Take drunk nationalists and have 40 loyalist bands and their supporters, also drunk and let them march through a mainly nationalist town, on St Paddy's of all days.

Good waste of resources spent policing this shite. Well done to all.

Not only that, Ireland are playing England that night in the 6 nations!

Or maybe that'll keep the tims in the pub? :o

Quote from: Tonto on March 08, 2012, 06:18:58 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 08, 2012, 06:04:30 PM
I have no interest in these Band Parades, nor have I ever marched anywhere etc. Indeed I have a great distaste for any such displays which are designed to be exercises in coat-trailing and territory-marking etc, and to wind up others.

EG in criticising those who you have no interest in and trying to come up with an idea of why people parade, you are as bad as those people who went to Windsor in the early 1980s and still call NI fans bigots.

You should re-read my post. I said "any such displays which etc" - that is, I did not automatically assume that this Parade is so designed. Indeed, I even posted a You Tube link to show what this band is like (more a crime against Music, than Community Relations imo).

Quote from: Tonto on March 08, 2012, 06:18:58 PMJust because you have no idea/ interest does not give you the right to suppose the reasons for people parading.  You should read 'Blood and Thunder', a book written by a Catholic man from CO Monaghan who followed Castlederg Young Loyalists for a year.  He made the point that if the only reason for parading is to "wind others up" as you said, then why are the biggest and most successful parades in loyalist areas?

I didn't make any such supposition.

Rather I took the trouble to find/cite the Parades Commission's Determination which, if followed, should ensure that no reasonable spectator need be intolerably wound up.

Perhaps I should put it another way. I don't particularly like these Band Parades. But I will not go out of my way to be offended by them, either, and I would suggest to Nationalists that they might do the same.

In other words, there is no need for this Parade to be troublesome unless someone wants it.

The pub will be an even bigger attraction than usual in Armagh this St Paddy's day, because Crossmaglen are playing in the AIF, and then Ireland beat England in Twickenham.  I for one would not bring my children to Armagh this year if a crowd of loyalists are going to arrive in the middle of it.  The St Patricks celebrations end at 6.30, and the parade begins at 7.00.  Do the parades commission think the loyalists are going to arrive at 6.55pm?  They will be there from much earlier in the day.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 08, 2012, 06:37:39 PM
I didn't make any such supposition.

Rather I took the trouble to find/cite the Parades Commission's Determination which, if followed, should ensure that no reasonable spectator need be intolerably wound up.

Fair enough, but I still don't believe that is clear from your post as, I think,  it implied the only reason for loyalist parades was to "coat trail" and "wind people up".

If that's not what you meant, I apologise.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 08, 2012, 06:37:39 PM
Perhaps I should put it another way. I don't particularly like these Band Parades. But I will not go out of my way to be offended by them, either, and I would suggest to Nationalists that they might do the same.

In other words, there is no need for this Parade to be troublesome unless someone wants it.

There is no need, but then again there was no need for it to be moved from where ever it originally was held to Armagh city.

Also you're noble suggestion might have some substance if you didn't ignore what day of the year it was. Can't imagine too many sober souls (on either side) around the city come kick-off time for the loyalist parade. Silly mistake by PC and PSNI who are probably looking some extra overtime if anything.

Quote from: Feckitt on March 08, 2012, 06:38:07 PMThe St Patricks celebrations end at 6.30, and the parade begins at 7.00.  Do the parades commission think the loyalists are going to arrive at 6.55pm?  They will be there from much earlier in the day.

According to the Parades Commission:
"The Commission also heard that this parade would start more than two hours after the Council-supported St Patrick's Day parade had finished at 4:30 pm, as publicly advertised by Armagh City and District Council.".

Besides, if the Commission had prescribed a later start to the Band Parade, then the finish might then have coincided with the Pubs closing...

But hey, that's just more proof of how "brainless" they are...  ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 08, 2012, 06:47:57 PM

Quote from: Feckitt on March 08, 2012, 06:38:07 PMThe St Patricks celebrations end at 6.30, and the parade begins at 7.00.  Do the parades commission think the loyalists are going to arrive at 6.55pm?  They will be there from much earlier in the day.

According to the Parades Commission:
"The Commission also heard that this parade would start more than two hours after the Council-supported St Patrick's Day parade had finished at 4:30 pm, as publicly advertised by Armagh City and District Council.".

Besides, if the Commission had prescribed a later start to the Band Parade, then the finish might then have coincided with the Pubs closing...

But hey, that's just more proof of how "brainless" they are...  ::)

IT'S ON SAINT PATRICK'S DAY.
ARMAGH WILL BE FULL OF  MAINLY NATIONALIST REVELERS......ALL DAY.


"So let's allow 40 loyalist "blood & thunder" bands to parade around" = BRAINLESS

The "traditional route" idea doesn't seem so sacred to them this time around for some reason hmmmm

It's all well and good having time limits on the each parade but if the PC think for one minute that the streets of Armagh will be clear by 7.30 to allow the march to merrily move along then they are in cloud cuckoo land.  By the parades will be over but you will have had a whole pile of lads in and out of the pubs all day watching the rugby and our club final and fully loaded with stout.  the rugby will be finished by just around 7pm so that gives a handy 30 minutes for the pubs to clear out onto the street in time for the parade.  It is mental and prevocative.  Imagine the reaction if the AOH requested a similar march through Ballymena on the 12th?  It would be murder.  By all means if they wanted the march they should have discussed it with the local people on the ground and had a small event first.  Jim Speers was on teh news saying its about celebrating St Patrick, well fair enough, but baby steps not jackboots.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 08, 2012, 06:04:30 PM

Quote from: orchard 8195 on March 08, 2012, 05:19:49 PM
A disaster waiting to happen.

I have no interest in these Band Parades, nor have I ever marched anywhere etc. Indeed I have a great distaste for any such displays which are designed to be exercises in coat-trailing and territory-marking etc, and to wind up others.

Finally, the official St.P's Day Parade is due to finish at 4.30 pm - three hours before this Parade commences. Someone said that there will be music in Market Street which ends at 6.30 pm, but on the basis that the Band Parade will only be leaving the Mall at 7 pm, that will surely allow more than half an hour for people to disperse before the Band Parade arrives?

I've highlighted the part above..... EG are you actually wise in the head?
Have you ever been out by Killylea, where the parade has been held every other year?
Well I have... for about 10years solid, and let me tell you:

The stalls, burger vans, bunting etc will be up from mid-week.... crowds start to gather quite early in the day to get the best spots!! If you think that the streets will be cleared by 7.30pm and that there will be no loyalists there long before the starting time.... u need help!!

What exactly do you think all the band members and their supporters will be doing all day before their event???

Let them at it, last man standing wins.

I'll be in Croke Park.  :P

Unbelievable stupidity (or complicity), and they thought the Holylands in Belfast last year were riotous .

It's goin to be mayhem, a shocking mis judgement by the PC, christ knows how the PSNI's arrived at their conclusion. A lot of people very  annoyed about Armagh.  Dumbfounded, really am.

Its will cost some amount of money to police this, the cheques will be bulging with all the overtime. Alas I fear they will earn it. A silly decision to hold a parade, people who have different views and copious amounts of alcohol is a bad mix.

St Patrick's Day in Armagh was always cross community and a 'neutral flag' day. This stuff is hideous and should not be allowed. The sad thing is that the people that are supporting this are the same people who were up in arms when a Sinn Fein Councillor went on a solo run in Downpatrick last year, much to the chagrin of the party hierarchy, and carried a tricolour at the head of the parade, an action that prompted Jim Wells to turn up to his first ever parade just so that he could then walk out in protest

This will be f**king carnage. Nothing but shit stirring bastards and unbelievable that the Parades Commision is letting this go ahead

Matt Groening warned this would happen.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5fHtC1ScM

Ah, home sweet home!  Inebrieted Taigs and Tartans beating the crap out of each other at the corner of Thomas Street and Scotch Street.  I love Civil War reenactments.  Next week, don't miss the St. Zarathustra Day Sunni-Shiite tug-of-war.

Absolutely incredible decision. 

 This reminds me of a day many years ago when Paisley was at his height. He took over the city of Armagh that day and disrupted people going to their work. I know as I was one of them. the boss I worked for kept the place open all day. No one came in but it was scary sh*t.
The daftest idea in a long time to allow this to happen. The psni and the parades commission have to bear the responsibility of what happens. >:(

Quote from: JUst retired on March 09, 2012, 08:09:22 AM
The daftest idea in a long time to allow this to happen. The psni and the parades commission have to bear the responsibility of what happens. >:(

They alone dont bear the responsibility. They have given the platform for any dickheads to cause trouble however.

I would love to think that this band is genuinely interested in supporting the Feast of Ireland's National Saint. And perhaps if this was the intention they should have joined the official parade "sans" flags and banners. However one can only conclude that the venue and timing of this is to assert their dominance in Armagh and if they can provoke a few green bedecked idiots into causing a riot well then job done. I sincerely hope that those genuinely in the city to watch Loughgiel, Cross and Ireland will stay in the pub or disperse peacefully and leave the pope kickers alone. Any trouble will be trumpeted as Nationalist intolerance, lets not take the bait. Think I'll head to Newry!

Quote from: nifan on March 09, 2012, 08:15:43 AM

Quote from: JUst retired on March 09, 2012, 08:09:22 AM
The daftest idea in a long time to allow this to happen. The psni and the parades commission have to bear the responsibility of what happens. >:(

They alone dont bear the responsibility. They have given the platform for any d**kheads to cause trouble however.

True, you can't resolve these people if (when) it kicks of, from their actions. However you would expect little more from these people if they are looking for trouble. However I would have expected better from the PC. And I think they will have a lot of explaining to do after this and have made a rod for their own back.

Crazy decision.

If these are just a group of musicians wanting a crowd, why don;t they join the main parade? Imagine the positive effect on community relations if they  joined in, instead of stirring shit all the time.

Quote from: armaghniac on March 09, 2012, 11:13:12 AM
If these are just a group of musicians wanting a crowd, why don;t they join the main parade? Imagine the positive effect on community relations if they  joined in, instead of stirring shit all the time.

The first parade isn't exactly designed to be entirely cross-community either, though, is it?  Just look at the route it takes for proof of that.

Something tells me that not too many huns would be made all that welcome on Irish Street or in the Cuchulain Bar (sp?) on Thomas Street.

Seeing as though the 'first' parade is a Catholic Church parade, I'm not sure what you are expecting ???  unless you want them to try and tr**p through an area where they are not wanted, sure no one would advocate that sort of approach would they?..... :o  The 2nd (council backed) parade is the 'wouldn't it be great if it was like this all the time' parade.

So there's three parades?  I was under the impression that the council one (complete with bunting) was setting off from Irish Street, Ogle Street, Thomas Street, English Street, Cathedral Rd?

Quote from: bennydorano on March 09, 2012, 07:20:37 PM
Seeing as though the 'first' parade is a Catholic Church parade, I'm not sure what you are expecting ???  unless you want them to try and tr**p through an area where they are not wanted, sure no one would advocate that sort of approach would they?..... :o  The 2nd (council backed) parade is the 'wouldn't it be great if it was like this all the time' parade.

Themmuns arent interested in it being like this all the time, they'd far rather it was anytime between 1690 and 1994. Drugged and boozed up loyalists roaming the streets when local nationalists are on their way home from a days drinking is the perfect recipe for someone to get killed.

Quote from: Tonto on March 09, 2012, 07:32:32 PM
So there's three parades?  I was under the impression that the council one (complete with bunting) was setting off from Irish Street, Ogle Street, Thomas Street, English Street, Cathedral Rd?

2, Catholic Church & Council one, which usually starts @ Palace

By the three parades, I meant the Protestant one, the Catholic one and the Council one.

Didn't know there was a RC one, but I see on the Parades Commission website it's run by 1st Armagh Scouts... so you learn something new everyday.

But, the point I made about the area the 'cross-community' council parade still stands.  According to the PC website it starts on the Friary Road and then pretty much follows the same route as the Catholic parade.  With such a route, I don't think there'd be too many Protestant bands all that willing to accept any invite to partake in the council parade in the future.

BTW, just to re-iterate, I still think it's madness to allow the loyalist parade in Armagh on St Patrick's night when they had successfully run the parade in Killylea for the last number of years.  Was it Cathal Boylan suggested the council should pay for the lighting needed in Killylea.  Would save money in the long run...

Only a couple of weeks ago, the leader of the DUP was at the McKenna Cup Final in Armagh in a PR exercise to show how we are "Moving On". Plenty of photo's, and good TV. Yet, when it comes to this band parade, his party supports it.

Since Himself and McGuiness milked the shit out of the McKenna Cup, then maybe they could be in Armagh once again together on St Patricks Day and stand together as a St Patricks Day parade moves around the town, and then 40 bands later in the day.

Tell us then how we are "Moving On".....

Oh wait, no chance of that happening as they will probably be standing beside Obama, telling the gombeems listening that we are "Moving On" as they wear shamrocks.

Pathetic, the whole fecking thing, and the losers are the genuine people who want to live together and put this nonsense behind us.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 09, 2012, 08:25:04 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on March 09, 2012, 07:20:37 PM
Seeing as though the 'first' parade is a Catholic Church parade, I'm not sure what you are expecting ???  unless you want them to try and tr**p through an area where they are not wanted, sure no one would advocate that sort of approach would they?..... :o  The 2nd (council backed) parade is the 'wouldn't it be great if it was like this all the time' parade.

Themmuns arent interested in it being like this all the time, they'd far rather it was anytime between 1690 and 1994. Drugged and boozed up loyalists roaming the streets when local nationalists are on their way home from a days drinking is the perfect recipe for someone to get killed.

That is about the only thing I can see happening out of all of this. The 6/6.30 news on Monday will have about 20 minutes dedicated to the events which are going to happen in Armagh city on St Patrick's Evening and then 'in other news' show about 30 seconds of clips of parades from other towns celebrating St Pats. Oh aye,  and then a slight mention of Cross winning their 6th All Ireland Club Championship.

Yep, have to agree. Terrible decision and potential to be a real PR disaster as well.

As St Patricks day is on a Saturday this year most of the students will be at home so the Peelers need to get their over-time somewhere.

What next for the Parades Commission, allowing Nationalist bands on the 12'th of July to march through Belfast to celebrate King James II at the battle of the Boyne  ::)

Thats a good idea, why has no one ever thought of it before? :D

MGHU. I have given this some thought,and come up with a plan.
We need someone who will annoy the hell out of themmuns. The answer is BrendanMc ??? from the GRRA ( Garvaghy Rd. residents assoc.)Our answer to Willie.The parade can take place on the morning of the Drumcree parade. We can march to Chapel in the middle of Portadown,and they go to Church at drumcree. If every body march in a clockwise direction it could work. The time difference between the length of the Mass as opposed to the Church service needs to be worked out After services we could follow their route past Carlton St. orange hall and back to garvaghy rd. It should work out or be a hell of a row.Oh sh*t I`ve burnt the toast.
Can anyone else come up with any ideas?
Anyone know the phone no. of the parades commission? ;D

Quote from: give her dixie on March 10, 2012, 02:15:18 AM
Only a couple of weeks ago, the leader of the DUP was at the McKenna Cup Final in Armagh in a PR exercise to show how we are "Moving On". Plenty of photo's, and good TV. Yet, when it comes to this band parade, his party supports it.

Since Himself and McGuiness milked the shit out of the McKenna Cup, then maybe they could be in Armagh once again together on St Patricks Day and stand together as a St Patricks Day parade moves around the town, and then 40 bands later in the day.

Tell us then how we are "Moving On".....

Oh wait, no chance of that happening as they will probably be standing beside Obama, telling the gombeems listening that we are "Moving On" as they wear shamrocks.

Pathetic, the whole fecking thing, and the losers are the genuine people who want to live together and put this nonsense behind us.

Giver er Dixie, ye bring up and intersting point. That annoys the bejesus out of me every year, here SF and SDLP call themselves socialists and working class people and they are standing beside the biggest capitalist and dictator in the world - the US President (with all his cronies). No doubt these trips cost an absolute fortune to the tax payer, I would have more repsect for them if they stood by a young mother who his getting fucked out of her house in Belfast or Derry on the same day.

Quote from: JUst retired on March 11, 2012, 08:21:14 AM
MGHU. I have given this some thought,and come up with a plan.
We need someone who will annoy the hell out of themmuns. The answer is BrendanMc ??? from the GRRA ( Garvaghy Rd. residents assoc.)Our answer to Willie.The parade can take place on the morning of the Drumcree parade. We can march to Chapel in the middle of Portadown,and they go to Church at drumcree. If every body march in a clockwise direction it could work. The time difference between the length of the Mass as opposed to the Church service needs to be worked out After services we could follow their route past Carlton St. orange hall and back to garvaghy rd. It should work out or be a hell of a row.Oh sh*t I`ve burnt the toast.
Can anyone else come up with any ideas?
Anyone know the phone no. of the parades commission? ;D

I don't think this is a fair comparison

Complete madness that will end in tears. Wonder what sort of back hander sorted this one out?

the twelth is in keady this year ::)

Quote from: theticklemister on March 11, 2012, 09:21:23 AM

Quote from: give her dixie on March 10, 2012, 02:15:18 AM
Only a couple of weeks ago, the leader of the DUP was at the McKenna Cup Final in Armagh in a PR exercise to show how we are "Moving On". Plenty of photo's, and good TV. Yet, when it comes to this band parade, his party supports it.

Since Himself and McGuiness milked the shit out of the McKenna Cup, then maybe they could be in Armagh once again together on St Patricks Day and stand together as a St Patricks Day parade moves around the town, and then 40 bands later in the day.

Tell us then how we are "Moving On".....

Oh wait, no chance of that happening as they will probably be standing beside Obama, telling the gombeems listening that we are "Moving On" as they wear shamrocks.

Pathetic, the whole fecking thing, and the losers are the genuine people who want to live together and put this nonsense behind us.

Giver er Dixie, ye bring up and intersting point. That annoys the bejesus out of me every year, here SF and SDLP call themselves socialists and working class people and they are standing beside the biggest capitalist and dictator in the world - the US President (with all his cronies). No doubt these trips cost an absolute fortune to the tax payer, I would have more repsect for them if they stood by a young mother who his getting fucked out of her house in Belfast or Derry on the same day.

Considering the news this weekend where Israel have murdered 19 in Gaza, and a US soldier murders at least 16 in Afghanistan, the sight of any Irish politician standing beside the warlord Obama or that evil twisted sick bitch Clinton will turn my stomach.

They don't give 2 fiddlers for the ordinary person, as it's all a game of power and money for them.

"Newry & Armagh MP Conor Murphy said he was hoping for a positive response from the Parades Commission in their review tomorrow of the decision to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day.
Conor Murphy said:
"When the decision was revealed to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day, Sinn Féin immediately asked for a review of what has to be the one of the most ridiculous determinations ever made in relation to marching in the North.
 "The input from the PSNI on this occasion has been totally disastrous. They have actually influenced the determination by unbelievably claiming there are 'no local concerns or sensitivities' around this march.
 "Don't they know it is going to be St Patrick's Day on Saturday?  Either the PSNI in Armagh have a total lack of understanding of the nationalist feelings in the area or there are other agendas at work.
 "At the same time the Parades Commission cannot wash their hands of this and ultimately the buck stops with them – they made this flawed determination.
"Hopefully common sense will prevail tomorrow at the review and we can put this ridiculous decision behind us and enjoy the St Patrick's Day festivities in Armagh on Saturday."

Quote from: Nally Stand on March 12, 2012, 11:14:40 PM
"Newry & Armagh MP Conor Murphy said he was hoping for a positive response from the Parades Commission in their review tomorrow of the decision to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day.
Conor Murphy said:
"When the decision was revealed to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day, Sinn Féin immediately asked for a review of what has to be the one of the most ridiculous determinations ever made in relation to marching in the North.
"The input from the PSNI on this occasion has been totally disastrous. They have actually influenced the determination by unbelievably claiming there are 'no local concerns or sensitivities' around this march.
"Don't they know it is going to be St Patrick's Day on Saturday?  Either the PSNI in Armagh have a total lack of understanding of the nationalist feelings in the area or there are other agendas at work.
"At the same time the Parades Commission cannot wash their hands of this and ultimately the buck stops with them – they made this flawed determination.
"Hopefully common sense will prevail tomorrow at the review and we can put this ridiculous decision behind us and enjoy the St Patrick's Day festivities in Armagh on Saturday."

+1 Conor.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 12, 2012, 11:23:03 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on March 12, 2012, 11:14:40 PM
"Newry & Armagh MP Conor Murphy said he was hoping for a positive response from the Parades Commission in their review tomorrow of the decision to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day.
Conor Murphy said:
"When the decision was revealed to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day, Sinn Féin immediately asked for a review of what has to be the one of the most ridiculous determinations ever made in relation to marching in the North.
"The input from the PSNI on this occasion has been totally disastrous. They have actually influenced the determination by unbelievably claiming there are 'no local concerns or sensitivities' around this march.
"Don't they know it is going to be St Patrick's Day on Saturday?  Either the PSNI in Armagh have a total lack of understanding of the nationalist feelings in the area or there are other agendas at work.
"At the same time the Parades Commission cannot wash their hands of this and ultimately the buck stops with them – they made this flawed determination.
"Hopefully common sense will prevail tomorrow at the review and we can put this ridiculous decision behind us and enjoy the St Patrick's Day festivities in Armagh on Saturday."

+1 Conor.

The Right Honourable MP for Newry & Armagh needs to realise you can't ride two horses with one arse.

Quote from: All of a Sludden on March 12, 2012, 11:35:29 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 12, 2012, 11:23:03 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on March 12, 2012, 11:14:40 PM
"Newry & Armagh MP Conor Murphy said he was hoping for a positive response from the Parades Commission in their review tomorrow of the decision to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick’s Day.
Conor Murphy said:
“When the decision was revealed to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick’s Day, Sinn Féin immediately asked for a review of what has to be the one of the most ridiculous determinations ever made in relation to marching in the North.
“The input from the PSNI on this occasion has been totally disastrous. They have actually influenced the determination by unbelievably claiming there are ‘no local concerns or sensitivities’ around this march.
“Don’t they know it is going to be St Patrick’s Day on Saturday?  Either the PSNI in Armagh have a total lack of understanding of the nationalist feelings in the area or there are other agendas at work.
“At the same time the Parades Commission cannot wash their hands of this and ultimately the buck stops with them – they made this flawed determination.
“Hopefully common sense will prevail tomorrow at the review and we can put this ridiculous decision behind us and enjoy the St Patrick’s Day festivities in Armagh on Saturday.”

+1 Conor.

The Right Honourable MP for Newry & Armagh needs to realise you can't ride two horses with one arse.

Rubbish, so every MP, TD, whatever has to sit back let an unjust and truely horrific decision go unopposed just because it was by a gov backed authority. Conor hasnt called for a blanket protest here or a return to violence he is just representing the people that voted for him in the right and proper manner.

Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on March 12, 2012, 11:44:16 PM

Quote from: All of a Sludden on March 12, 2012, 11:35:29 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 12, 2012, 11:23:03 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on March 12, 2012, 11:14:40 PM
"Newry & Armagh MP Conor Murphy said he was hoping for a positive response from the Parades Commission in their review tomorrow of the decision to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day.
Conor Murphy said:
"When the decision was revealed to allow 40 loyalist bands to march through Armagh City on the evening of St Patrick's Day, Sinn Féin immediately asked for a review of what has to be the one of the most ridiculous determinations ever made in relation to marching in the North.
"The input from the PSNI on this occasion has been totally disastrous. They have actually influenced the determination by unbelievably claiming there are 'no local concerns or sensitivities' around this march.
"Don't they know it is going to be St Patrick's Day on Saturday?  Either the PSNI in Armagh have a total lack of understanding of the nationalist feelings in the area or there are other agendas at work.
"At the same time the Parades Commission cannot wash their hands of this and ultimately the buck stops with them – they made this flawed determination.
"Hopefully common sense will prevail tomorrow at the review and we can put this ridiculous decision behind us and enjoy the St Patrick's Day festivities in Armagh on Saturday."

+1 Conor.

The Right Honourable MP for Newry & Armagh needs to realise you can't ride two horses with one arse.

Rubbish, so every MP, TD, whatever has to sit back let an unjust and truely horrific decision go unopposed just because it was by a gov backed authority. Conor hasnt called for a blanket protest here or a return to violence he is just representing the people that voted for him in the right and proper manner.

Exactly, sticking to the party line is what fucks countries.

lads, dont be taking that bait ffs

Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Quote from: give her dixie on March 13, 2012, 12:37:21 AM
Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Assuming this parade is a coat trailing exercise an illegal counter protest would just play into their hands and give the parade organisers  the chance to say thmmuns kicked off the trouble.

Quote from: give her dixie on March 13, 2012, 12:37:21 AM
Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Sinn Fein have always been to the forefront when it comes to protesting about contentious parades or any other issue so would imagine they will not be found wanting if they feel this is the way to go.

Oh dear

BBC News Northern Ireland
13 March 2012 Last updated at 18:34
Armagh band parade will go ahead on 17 March

The Parades Commission has decided not to change its ruling which allows a loyalist band to parade through Armagh on St Patrick's Day.

Cormeen Rising Sons of William have been given permission to hold a procession with 40 other bands and more than 1000 supporters.

The SDLP and Sinn Fein raised concerns about the march taking place on the city's biggest tourism day of the year.

The parties made representations to the Parades Commission on Tuesday.

The UUP's Danny Kennedy MLA and Councillor William Irwin also spoke to the commission, in support of the parade organisers.

The commission said it had reviewed the information, and considered all the representations submitted to it.

However, it added: "The oral and written representations it has received do not, on balance, warrant the imposition of further conditions on the parade.

"It has therefore decided not to amend its original determination of 8 March 2012 in respect of this parade."


   

Dochreidte

I know a couple of guys (Protestants) headin to this on saturday evening and it is not for the O.O parade, they are banking on a riot.

The old bit of overtime at treble time will be most welcome.

Quote from: Hereiam on March 13, 2012, 09:24:17 PMI know a couple of guys (Protestants) headin to this on saturday evening and it is not for the O.O parade, they are banking on a riot.

Well, you got one thing right, anyhow [bold].

(It's not an OO Parade  ::))

Quote from: give her dixie on March 13, 2012, 12:37:21 AM
Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Looks like there's a load of rogue apostrophes on the loose as well.  :P

I must say

I see that goon Danny Kennedy was supporting the right to parade. Asshole.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 13, 2012, 11:40:48 PM
I see that goon Danny Kennedy was supporting the right to parade. Asshole.

What would you expect though(?)

Quote from: Maguire01 on March 13, 2012, 11:41:35 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 13, 2012, 11:40:48 PM
I see that goon Danny Kennedy was supporting the right to parade. Asshole.

What would you expect though(?)

Let the bandsmen fight their own corner with the PC. I remember years ago the cnut fighting for the rights of a LVF band to march in Newry. Says it all.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 14, 2012, 12:02:55 AM

Quote from: Maguire01 on March 13, 2012, 11:41:35 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 13, 2012, 11:40:48 PM
I see that goon Danny Kennedy was supporting the right to parade. Asshole.

What would you expect though(?)

Let the bandsmen fight their own corner with the PC. I remember years ago the cnut fighting for the rights of a LVF band to march in Newry. Says it all.

I'm not disagreeing with you - it was a rhetorical question. It's just that i'm not surprised.

Are they really rogues? ;)

Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 09:41:55 AM

Quote from: give her dixie on March 13, 2012, 12:37:21 AM
Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Sinn Fein have always been to the forefront when it comes to protesting about contentious parades or any other issue so would imagine they will not be found wanting if they feel this is the way to go.

I sincerely hope that they are found wanting and leave thes glipes to their petty coat trailing. some of the protesters SF tend to attract when they arrange protests are as bad as the loyalists they are protesting against. this is provocation and should be ignored.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 14, 2012, 10:48:08 AM

Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 09:41:55 AM

Quote from: give her dixie on March 13, 2012, 12:37:21 AM
Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Sinn Fein have always been to the forefront when it comes to protesting about contentious parades or any other issue so would imagine they will not be found wanting if they feel this is the way to go.

I sincerely hope that they are found wanting and leave thes glipes to their petty coat trailing. some of the protesters SF tend to attract when they arrange protests are as bad as the loyalists they are protesting against. this is provocation and should be ignored.

Balls,and OK if you say so SF will do nothing.

Quote from: glens abu on March 14, 2012, 11:38:01 AM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 14, 2012, 10:48:08 AM

Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 09:41:55 AM

Quote from: give her dixie on March 13, 2012, 12:37:21 AM
Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Sinn Fein have always been to the forefront when it comes to protesting about contentious parades or any other issue so would imagine they will not be found wanting if they feel this is the way to go.

I sincerely hope that they are found wanting and leave thes glipes to their petty coat trailing. some of the protesters SF tend to attract when they arrange protests are as bad as the loyalists they are protesting against. this is provocation and should be ignored.

Balls,and OK if you say so SF will do nothing.

Good I hope they do. It will leave these Paddy loving loyalists with no one to annoy! stay in the pub and enjoy the day. And you know full well that any protest will attract the Celtic top wearing bigots that will turn a peaceful protest into a riot.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 14, 2012, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: glens abu on March 14, 2012, 11:38:01 AM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 14, 2012, 10:48:08 AM

Quote from: glens abu on March 13, 2012, 09:41:55 AM

Quote from: give her dixie on March 13, 2012, 12:37:21 AM
Can we expect to see Conor and his fellow MP's, TD's and MLA's in Armagh this Saturday night in protest at this march?

Sinn Fein have always been to the forefront when it comes to protesting about contentious parades or any other issue so would imagine they will not be found wanting if they feel this is the way to go.

I sincerely hope that they are found wanting and leave thes glipes to their petty coat trailing. some of the protesters SF tend to attract when they arrange protests are as bad as the loyalists they are protesting against. this is provocation and should be ignored.

Balls,and OK if you say so SF will do nothing.

Good I hope they do. It will leave these Paddy loving loyalists with no one to annoy! stay in the pub and enjoy the day. And you know full well that any protest will attract the Celtic top wearing bigots that will turn a peaceful protest into a riot.

Ach sure let them at it. They'll do a great job too.  And the parades Commission will get a pat on the back and they'll be back next year and a traditional route will be born and Armagh will be down thousands of pounds investment.  Bands have even pulled out of the main parade due to the bad publicity, this has been a joke form the outset and a protest is really needed in my opinion.

That is very true, lets the hammerheads in this year and they'll be back every year.  Tell them join the main council parade or f**k off back to Killylea.

Wonder how things will be this time tomorrow night in our ma?

Quote from: EC Unique on March 16, 2012, 08:56:18 PM
Wonder how things will be this time tomorrow night in our ma?

you'd be like a boy who's right and worried about it

Quote from: Abble on March 16, 2012, 09:35:12 PM

Quote from: EC Unique on March 16, 2012, 08:56:18 PM
Wonder how things will be this time tomorrow night in our ma?

you'd be like a boy who's right and worried about it

Be careful up on that big horse. It is way too big for you.. ::)

In Armagh and parade delayed due to a bomb scare.

Parade delayed, and been re routed. We are moving on all right in 2012

Armagh seems to have been a damp squib with not many turning up.

Thankfully there seems not to have been any trouble. But it still makes no sense to have allowed this to proceed.

Still took the PSNI parting in some old RUC tactics of ringing in a bomb scare just to clear the fenians from the city centre

Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on March 17, 2012, 10:22:46 PM
Still took the PSNI parting in some old RUC tactics of ringing in a bomb scare just to clear the fenians from the city centre

Surely not ?.

Quote from: orangeman on March 17, 2012, 10:12:11 PM
Armagh seems to have been a damp squib with not many turning up.

Thankfully there seems not to have been any trouble. But it still makes no sense to have allowed this to proceed.

Was thru the city earlier and the huns were marching in the daek. Hardly a sinner about so must be disappointing for them.

And the nominations for the 2012 Nostradamus Awards are:

bennydorano - "It's goin to be mayhem"

Forever Green - "This will be f**king carnage"

Oraisteach - "Inebrieted Taigs and Tartans beating the crap out of each other at the corner of Thomas Street and Scotch Street"

Tony Baloney - "Drugged and boozed up loyalists roaming the streets when local nationalists are on their way home from a days drinking is the perfect recipe for someone to get killed"

EC Unique - "Complete madness that will end in tears"

Hereiam's Protestant Friends - "... they are banking on a riot"

But the winner, for getting right in there with the first reply on Page 1 is.........




(Drum roll and interminable, 'X' Factor-style delay)




Ardchieftain - "There will be a killing session without a shadow of a doubt".

In the immortal words of Andy Gray "Women don't know the offside rule": "Take a bow, son, take a bow"  ;)

So things passed off peacefully enough. But what did the loyalist parade achieve?
From what I understand the Hotel closed and several businesses, in anticipation of trouble. Lots of people did not come to Armagh and local business, it would appear, lost revenue.....

Was it worth it?

And the big bonus is they are already planning for next year's parade already (today's Irish News).  It really is a no-win situation for Nationalists, wreck the place or leave them to it and then you have to put up with this shit every year, the best chance for it not going ahead is Council / Business pressure, the town lost out financially and as with everything else - money talks.

I always thought that the Marching season ran from Easter to Black Saturday?

Quote from: The Iceman on March 19, 2012, 01:47:12 PM
So things passed off peacefully enough. But what did the loyalist parade achieve?
From what I understand the Hotel closed and several businesses, in anticipation of trouble. Lots of people did not come to Armagh and local business, it would appear, lost revenue.....

Was it worth it?

In the short term, possibly not [bold].

However, if it means that people are finally beginning to learn that they don't have to go out of their way every time to be offended by "themmuns", and just ignore their bloody parades and demonstrations etc, then this particular event might just prove to have been worth it in the long term (for Armagh City, at any rate).

Let's hope so.

Quote from: bennydorano on March 19, 2012, 02:03:46 PM
And the big bonus is they are already planning for next year's parade already (today's Irish News).  It really is a no-win situation for Nationalists, wreck the place or leave them to it and then you have to put up with this shit every year, the best chance for it not going ahead is Council / Business pressure, the town lost out financially and as with everything else - money talks.

Is it really? [bold]

Why cannot we have the "Catholic" Parade and the "Civic" one, in the morning/afternoon, followed by the "Protestant" Parade in the evening, as appears to have happened on Saturday?

I accept that the Loyalist Parade gets up the noses of Nationalist etc and it would be better all round if the paraders made a sincere effort to understand this.

But in truth, for many years Unionists had to put up with eg the ChuckyFest that was Belfast's St.Paddy's Day (Tricolours, Celtic tops and painted faces etc), without feeling the irresistable urge to "wreck the place".

Quote from: bennydorano on March 19, 2012, 02:03:46 PMI always thought that the Marching season ran from Easter to Black Saturday?

I suspect it may be no coincidence that Saturday passed off peacefully because by the time the Band Parade got under way, it was already cold, dark and wet - preedictable enough for mid-March in Armagh!

Therefore if these Loyalists are mad enough to want to walk the streets in those conditions, let them - sensible folk will already be inside somewhere, enjoying traditional winter evening entertainment in Ireland!

QuoteWhy cannot we have the "Catholic" Parade and the "Civic" one, in the morning/afternoon, followed by the "Protestant" Parade in the evening, as appears to have happened on Saturday?

Of course that should be possible - but really why move this to Armagh at all?
For all the bleating about marches and traditional routes we hear, why then move something thats been occuring somewhere regularly, to a location that is always going to be more contested.

If a republican band wanted to march along the route of the 12th in belfast after the oo parade had finished im sure there would be questions asked as well. Theres plenty of flags, face paint and worse at the 12th, but doing something to balance it up would hardly be the best response.

Quote from: nifan on March 19, 2012, 02:53:28 PM

QuoteWhy cannot we have the "Catholic" Parade and the "Civic" one, in the morning/afternoon, followed by the "Protestant" Parade in the evening, as appears to have happened on Saturday?

Of course that should be possible - but really why move this to Armagh at all?
For all the bleating about marches and traditional routes we hear, why then move something thats been occuring somewhere regularly, to a location that is always going to be more contested.

If a republican band wanted to march along the route of the 12th in belfast after the oo parade had finished im sure there would be questions asked as well. Theres plenty of flags, face paint and worse at the 12th, but doing something to balance it up would hardly be the best response.

Fair question [bold], and I agree that it would be better had they kept to Killylea.

But if society is ever going to be "normalised" in the long term, then we cannot continue with the present Balkanisation of life in NI, whereby "themmuns" have "their" areas and "Ussuns" have "ours", conducted in segregated housing estates, behind ever higher Peace Walls [sic].

In the end, there has to be a greater degree of toleration of things we don't like, so that eventually we may realise that we don't actually have to get irresistably "offended" by every sleight or slur in the next street, a couple of hours after we were going home anyhow...

So will it be ok for an Ancient Order of Hibernians Band to march through Kilkeel on 12 July

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on March 19, 2012, 03:08:40 PM
So will it be ok for an Ancient Order of Hibernians Band to march through Kilkeel on 12 July

Hate to say this but I don't think that's exactly what EG is saying. He's simply saying that we need to strive to reach a point were such things are accepted; or have no impact, by all communities In Ireland, or else we all continue to live in glass houses

Yeah but wouldnt it be a whole lot easier to not allow sectarian band parades in the first place.

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on March 19, 2012, 03:08:40 PM
So will it be ok for an Ancient Order of Hibernians Band to march through Kilkeel on 12 July

So long as they received the approval of the PSNI and Parades Commission in advance, and complied with any conditions imposed etc, then in principle they should be allowed to. And in such circumstances, the people of Kilkeel should be expected to "suck it up", without recourse to riot or disorder.

Btw, yours is an interesting, even revealing, analogy. For it implies that just as the victory at the Boyne is self-evidently a "Loyalist" Day, then St. Patrick's Day must be a "Nationalist" Day. Or is it the location which is significant? You know, Kilkeel is undoubtedly a "Protestant" town, so Armagh belongs to the "Taigs", eh?   ::)

P.S. What would the AOH be commemorating on the Twelfth? The ignominious defeat of Seamus a' Caca?  ;)

QuoteBBut in truth, for many years Unionists had to put up with eg the ChuckyFest that was Belfast's St.Paddy's Day (Tricolours, Celtic tops and painted faces etc), without feeling the irresistable urge to "wreck the place".

The usual shit stirring attempt to equate St Patrick's day with the 12th of July just as there is a continual attempt to equate the OO with the GAA. People go about with painted faces and the like in New York, Berlin, Moscow, Toronto, Melbourne etc on St Patrick's day, there is nothing divisive about it.

The Orange parade was an attempt to stir up trouble by a sectarian organisation. There is no symmetry here.

Quote from: ardal on March 19, 2012, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on March 19, 2012, 03:08:40 PM
So will it be ok for an Ancient Order of Hibernians Band to march through Kilkeel on 12 July

Hate to say this but I don't think that's exactly what EG is saying. He's simply saying that we need to strive to reach a point were such things are accepted; or have no impact, by all communities In Ireland, or else we all continue to live in glass houses

Exactly.

Quote from: armaghniac on March 19, 2012, 03:30:42 PM

QuoteBBut in truth, for many years Unionists had to put up with eg the ChuckyFest that was Belfast's St.Paddy's Day (Tricolours, Celtic tops and painted faces etc), without feeling the irresistable urge to "wreck the place".

The usual shit stirring attempt to equate St Patrick's day with the 12th of July...

Except that I didn't mention the Twelfth (that was Dougal Maguire, btw)

Quote from: armaghniac on March 19, 2012, 03:30:42 PM... just as there is a continual attempt to equate the OO with the GAA. People go about with painted faces and the like in New York, Berlin, Moscow, Toronto, Melbourne etc on St Patrick's day, there is nothing divisive about it.

And nope, I didn't mention the GAA, either...

Quote from: armaghniac on March 19, 2012, 03:30:42 PMThe Orange parade was an attempt to stir up trouble by a sectarian organisation. There is no symmetry here.

And the Parade in Armagh wan't an OO parade, either...

Which makes 0/3 - you really are on form today, aren't you?  ::)

QuoteWhich makes 0/3 - you really are on form today, aren't you?  ::)

It has been a busy weekend.

Whatever the detail of what I said and what you said and what everyone else said my point is still clear. Do not draw spurious comparisons between St Patrick's day or the GAA or other things that are not intrinsically objectionable and between intrinsically divisive sectarian gatherings.  Such comparisons are not valid even if the former occasionally have fringe aspects that someone might object to or that the latter also have fringe involvement by relatively inoffensive people. 

Quote from: armaghniac on March 19, 2012, 03:54:02 PM

QuoteWhich makes 0/3 - you really are on form today, aren't you?  ::)

It has been a busy weekend.

Do not draw spurious comparisons between St Patrick's day or the GAA or other things that are not intrinsically objectionable and between intrinsically divisive sectarian gatherings.  Such comparisons are not valid even if the former occasionally have fringe aspects that someone might object to or that the latter also have fringe involvement by relatively inoffensive people.

I did NOT make a comparison - spurious or otherwise - between St. P's Day/GAA and other "intrinsically divisive sectarian gatherings".  Nor did I even mention the GAA at any point in this thread.

Rather, in replying to the offence taken by Nationalists at politicisation by Unionists of St.P's Day in Armagh, I pointed out that it was no different from offence taken by Unionists at the politicisation by Nationalists of St. P's Day in Belfast.

Quote from: armaghniac on March 19, 2012, 03:54:02 PMWhatever the detail of what I said and what you said and what everyone else said my point is still clear.

Cop out.

In order to avoid looking like a Mope who is determined to feel sleighted and aggrieved at every turn, you might be advised to study what I do  actually post, rather than responding to what I don't...  ::)

OO / loyalist parades are a regular feature in armagh city throughout the 'marching season', i dont think its unreasonable to tell these clowns to remain in Killylea on paddys day, it was undoubtedly a shit stirring exercise, an attempt to reclaim a bit of padraig for loyalists. The equivalent wouldn't be an AOH march, it would be Republicans looking to march up Armagh town on the 12th of July claiming they were celebrating / embracing loyalist culture.

QuoteI did NOT make a comparison - spurious or otherwise - between St. P's Day/GAA and other "intrinsically divisive sectarian gatherings".  Nor did I even mention the GAA at any point in this thread.

Rather, in replying to the offence taken by Nationalists at politicisation by Unionists of St.P's Day in Armagh, I pointed out that it was no different from offence taken by Unionists at the politicisation by Nationalists of St. P's Day in Belfast.

Lets leave the GAA out of it for the moment. You say that you did not NOT make a comparison between St. P's Day and other "intrinsically divisive sectarian gatherings", but in the next sentence you go on to make such a comparison. If an intrinsically divisive sectarian gathering is not equivalent to a St Patrick's day parade then there is no use in comparing "offence" taken by people in relation to these very different events. If you claim that the taking of offence is comparable, then you are also implying that the events are comparable.

The parade organisers must be seething that the nationalists in Armagh didn't take the bait.

See they are planning it for 16th Mar next year.

Well done to anyone in Armagh who never let it bother them. The only reason these arseholes wanted to parade

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 19, 2012, 03:28:52 PM

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on March 19, 2012, 03:08:40 PM
So will it be ok for an Ancient Order of Hibernians Band to march through Kilkeel on 12 July

So long as they received the approval of the PSNI and Parades Commission in advance, and complied with any conditions imposed etc, then in principle they should be allowed to. And in such circumstances, the people of Kilkeel should be expected to "suck it up", without recourse to riot or disorder.

Btw, yours is an interesting, even revealing, analogy. For it implies that just as the victory at the Boyne is self-evidently a "Loyalist" Day, then St. Patrick's Day must be a "Nationalist" Day. Or is it the location which is significant? You know, Kilkeel is undoubtedly a "Protestant" town, so Armagh belongs to the "Taigs", eh?   ::)

P.S. What would the AOH be commemorating on the Twelfth? The ignominious defeat of Seamus a' Caca?  ;)

No, I'm not saying that at all. Just look at how St Patrick's Day was celebrated by everyone, neutral event where everyone could feel welcome. Streets full of people enjoying themselves. Compare this to Armagh Saturday night, Union Jacks everywhere and streets deserted. It all boils down to the same thing, the We are the People mentality

QuotePeople go about with painted faces and the like in New York, Berlin, Moscow, Toronto, Melbourne etc on St Patrick's day, there is nothing divisive about it.

Hope this doesn't cause a precedent.  Paul Calfe is right.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/fanshawe-college-president-to-address-rioting-in-london-ont-at-news-conference-143293056.html

LONDON, Ont. - A St. Patrick's Day riot fuelled by drunken college students and punctuated by explosions into the night sky has resulted in eight students suspended while facing criminal charges and a push to identify more culprits through social media, officials said Monday.

Quote from: armaghniac on March 19, 2012, 07:22:30 PM

QuoteI did NOT make a comparison - spurious or otherwise - between St. P's Day/GAA and other "intrinsically divisive sectarian gatherings".  Nor did I even mention the GAA at any point in this thread.

Rather, in replying to the offence taken by Nationalists at politicisation by Unionists of St.P's Day in Armagh, I pointed out that it was no different from offence taken by Unionists at the politicisation by Nationalists of St. P's Day in Belfast.

Lets leave the GAA out of it for the moment. You say that you did not NOT make a comparison between St. P's Day and other "intrinsically divisive sectarian gatherings", but in the next sentence you go on to make such a comparison. If an intrinsically divisive sectarian gathering is not equivalent to a St Patrick's day parade then there is no use in comparing "offence" taken by people in relation to these very different events. If you claim that the taking of offence is comparable, then you are also implying that the events are comparable.

For the 3rd (and last) time, I compared Paddy's Day in Armagh with Paddy's Day in Belfast.

You know, the more you insist on rebutting an argument that no-one is making, the more you expose your complete inability to rebut the argument which is being made.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 20, 2012, 07:52:14 PM
For the 3rd (and last) time, I compared Paddy's Day in Armagh with Paddy's Day in Belfast.

You know, the more you insist on rebutting an argument that no-one is making, the more you expose your complete inability to rebut the argument which is being made.

It's St Patrick's Day. Its not "Paddy's Day" or "St P's Day".

Can you not recognise the name of Ireland's (North and South) National saint, properly?

Quote from: Forever Green on March 19, 2012, 08:01:22 PMWell done to anyone in Armagh who never let it bother them.

It's good that you can be so magnanimous to people who made you look just a little bit stupid:

Quote from: Forever Green on March 08, 2012, 10:34:46 PM
This will be f**king carnage.

Quote from: Forever Green on March 19, 2012, 08:01:22 PMThe only reason these arseholes wanted to parade

Fwiw, here is the Press Release by the organising band, issued a week before the Parade:

CORMEEN RISING SONS OF WILLIAM – PRESS RELEASE

Cormeen Rising Sons of William Band Procession,
Armagh City, St Patrick's Day 2012


Event background

Cormeen Rising Sons of William Flute want to make it very clear that their 2012 St Patrick's Day procession isn't being hosted in Armagh on a whim or to annoy anyone. It has been the goal of the band to host the event in the city since they first started commemorating the occasion in 2005. The event is a St Patrick's Day celebration. As such Armagh City, the home of Patrick, is the most logical location.

The band and its membership have a connection with the City that outweighs any other Village or Town. Several members were born and grew up in the City with most educated in the City. For most the commercial and social aspects of the city are fundamental parts of their daily lives.

Armagh City and District Council area has the highest number of Ulster marching bands as ratio to population in Northern Ireland with over 50 in operation. A majority of the participants within the event will be bands from this catchment area, many of which hold the same affinity with the town as Cormeen.

Preparations for the 2012 event

It has been publicly acknowledged that community relations in Armagh City are at their best stage in modern times. Armagh City has not had any political or religious motivated public disorder for over a decade; local politicians of all hues are working together with minimal friction In Council chambers, community groups from different backgrounds are engaging in various projects; the commercial centre is reasonably successful in current terms with no regard to denomination of business ownership; central social venues like the cinema and Theatre are acknowledged as being neutral; and all educational establishments are regularly working together in various initiatives.

A detailed commercial and community impact assessment was commissioned, with in addition the programme of events in relation to St Patrick's celebrations in the City in 2012 examined in depth. The band procession is deliberately scheduled as to not interfere with other events.

The parade route does not impinge on any premises hosting events, with traffic disruption minimal as confirmed by the PSNI. Armagh City has a well established band procession route that has no historical issues of contention. Commercial impact is negated by the factual reality that Armagh has a minimal history of late night shopping plus most businesses are closed for the holiday.

For the handful of businesses opening, marshals will ensure that pedestrian and vehicular traffic is unimpeded. Several businesses have informed Cormeen they are opening just for the procession.

In terms of infrastructure, Armagh is infinitely better equipped than any other nearby local hamlet, village or town to hold events of almost any nature or scale. Full risk assessment, health and safety action plan, marshalling plan and first aid points have been prepared, and the band have fully liaised and cooperated with the PSNI.

Overview

St Patrick's Day has been one that the Unionist community has been nervous of celebrating over the past decades, primarily due to the overt Irish Nationalist and Republican trappings. Cormeen however believe that Patrick and his legacy is very relevant to Protestantism and Unionism and belongs to all of the people of Northern Ireland, and are giving those who are intimidated by other events a chance to express that view.

While the event is of course a traditional Ulster band parade, and obviously participation will therefore be limited to bands from within that sector, all are welcome to watch and enjoy the music and colour of the procession regardless of creed or colour. As such the event falls within the remit of the Council policy on St Patricks events in the City.

The band has made it very clear they will talk to anyone with concerns, however despite notifying the procession to the Parades Commission over 6 months ago they have only heard of concerns within the last 14 days and even then only via third party sources. Offers of meetings within the last week to parties with concerns have as yet not been taken up upon.

Cormeen Flute have fully cooperated with all statutory regulations regarding hosting their annual event, will abide fully with the Parades Commission determination and would urge others to do so.


In other words, they gave their reasons for wanting to Parade, they were told that they could do so subject to complying with certain conditions, they did so, and the parade passed off peacefully, as anticipated by the PSNI.

Which, if you think about it, is hardly surprising, since come 7 or 8 o'clock in a dark, wet and cold March evening in Armagh*, when the shops were all shut, anyone who had earlier been in the city for the other celebrations etc, would by now either be in the pub, or would have gone home (unless they were there for the Parade itself, obviously).


* - I mean, it's not exactly Carnival in Rio, Gay Pride in Sydney, or Mardi Gras in New Orleans, is it?  ;)

Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2012, 08:09:58 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 20, 2012, 07:52:14 PM
For the 3rd (and last) time, I compared Paddy's Day in Armagh with Paddy's Day in Belfast.

You know, the more you insist on rebutting an argument that no-one is making, the more you expose your complete inability to rebut the argument which is being made.

It's St Patrick's Day. Its not "Paddy's Day" or "St P's Day".

Can you not recognise the name of Ireland's (North and South) National saint, properly?

Is using abbreviation on an internet forum a mortal sin or a venial one?

Ach dammit, I suppose it doesn't matter, since I'm bound for Hell anyway...  ::)

Quote from: BennyCake on March 20, 2012, 08:09:58 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 20, 2012, 07:52:14 PM
For the 3rd (and last) time, I compared Paddy's Day in Armagh with Paddy's Day in Belfast.

You know, the more you insist on rebutting an argument that no-one is making, the more you expose your complete inability to rebut the argument which is being made.

It's St Patrick's Day. Its not "Paddy's Day" or "St P's Day".

Can you not recognise the name of Ireland's (North and South) National saint, properly?

Tell me you're joking. Please. I think I might boke otherwise.

Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2012, 04:28:52 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

Patrick was not created Saint by "the RC church" [sic], he was created Saint by the Christian Church.

And the present-day Protestant Churches recognise these (pre-Reformation) Saints just as much as the present-day Roman Catholic Church.

Or why do you imagine eg the centre of Anglicanism in Ireland is  (ahem) St. Patrick's Cathedral, Armagh?
http://www.stpatricks-cathedral.org/

P.S. I've just checked, and it seems Patrick is also a Saint of the Eastern Orthodox Church:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Eastern_Orthodox_saints

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:41:38 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2012, 04:28:52 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:03:35 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:41:38 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2012, 04:28:52 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 05:29:40 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:03:35 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:41:38 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2012, 04:28:52 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome.

Go on, then, which Bishop of Rome was it canonised him, and when?

"And if. You know. Your History. It's enough to make your heart go Woahhhhhhhhhh"  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 19, 2012, 02:39:39 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on March 19, 2012, 02:03:46 PM
And the big bonus is they are already planning for next year's parade already (today's Irish News).  It really is a no-win situation for Nationalists, wreck the place or leave them to it and then you have to put up with this shit every year, the best chance for it not going ahead is Council / Business pressure, the town lost out financially and as with everything else - money talks.

Is it really? [bold]

Why cannot we have the "Catholic" Parade and the "Civic" one, in the morning/afternoon, followed by the "Protestant" Parade in the evening, as appears to have happened on Saturday?

I accept that the Loyalist Parade gets up the noses of Nationalist etc and it would be better all round if the paraders made a sincere effort to understand this.

But in truth, for many years Unionists had to put up with eg the ChuckyFest that was Belfast's St.Paddy's Day (Tricolours, Celtic tops and painted faces etc), without feeling the irresistable urge to "wreck the place".

Quote from: bennydorano on March 19, 2012, 02:03:46 PMI always thought that the Marching season ran from Easter to Black Saturday?

I suspect it may be no coincidence that Saturday passed off peacefully because by the time the Band Parade got under way, it was already cold, dark and wet - preedictable enough for mid-March in Armagh!

Therefore if these Loyalists are mad enough to want to walk the streets in those conditions, let them - sensible folk will already be inside somewhere, enjoying traditional winter evening entertainment in Ireland!

I think you've shown your true colours there. So what you're saying is that its payback time. It doesn't matter that things have moved on and Belfast/Armagh/Downpatrick/Newry have taken massive strides to make their St Patrick's Day events all inclusive, the fact is that they didn't use to be and that therefore appears to be your justification for supporting a loyalist march with all the loyalist paraphernalia through Armagh.

QuoteWhile the event is of course a traditional Ulster band parade, and obviously participation will therefore be limited to bands from within that sector

So f**k off to inclusive events then. But the croppies can watch, if they wish.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:44:46 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 05:29:40 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:03:35 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:41:38 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2012, 04:28:52 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome.

Go on, then, which Bishop of Rome was it canonised him, and when?

"And if. You know. Your History. It's enough to make your heart go Woahhhhhhhhhh"  ;)

Ok so you want to be pedantic he has never been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church.  But when the Roman Catholic Church established its first list of Saints , Patrick was on it. Therefore he was created and accepted as as Saint by the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

Quote from: hardstation on March 22, 2012, 12:40:06 PM
There was more than one St. Patrick.

Anyway, rival St. Patricks' day parades have been part and parcel of Irish culture for years. Who could forget the rivalry of A.O.H Luganderry and The Sons of St. Patrick between 1912 and 1917.

who indeed

Quote from: hardstation on March 22, 2012, 12:50:54 PM
2 bands in Ros Cuain in Donegal. Fierce row up there which started over a drum and then it all kicked off.
Still talked about to this day.

Some beatin' I heard

Quote from: el_cuervo_fc on March 22, 2012, 12:56:24 PM

Quote from: hardstation on March 22, 2012, 12:50:54 PM
2 bands in Ros Cuain in Donegal. Fierce row up there which started over a drum and then it all kicked off.
Still talked about to this day.

Some beatin' I heard

Ba dum tish.

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on March 21, 2012, 06:55:28 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 19, 2012, 02:39:39 PM

But in truth, for many years Unionists had to put up with eg the ChuckyFest that was Belfast's St.Paddy's Day (Tricolours, Celtic tops and painted faces etc), without feeling the irresistable urge to "wreck the place".

I think you've shown your true colours there. So what you're saying is that its payback time. It doesn't matter that things have moved on and Belfast/Armagh/Downpatrick/Newry have taken massive strides to make their St Patrick's Day events all inclusive, the fact is that they didn't use to be and that therefore appears to be your justification for supporting a loyalist march with all the loyalist paraphernalia through Armagh.

Not what I said at all.

Bennydorano claimed that the only alternative to putting up with this Loyalist parade would be to "wreck the place". Never mind the other possibilities (eg appealing the PC decision, or protesting peacefully), I consider that "wrecking the place" is not an acceptable alternative at all.

And to illustrate this principle, I pointed out that when Unionists were faced with the same* provocation eg in Belfast, they desisted from "wrecking the place" - and quite right, too.

Therefore what you characterise as "payback", or some sort of "justification" (and you ignore my post where I said it would have been better all round if they'd stuck with Killylea, btw), was actually just an illustration of how "turning the other cheek" is often the least unacceptable response.


* - Arguably the provocation in Belfast was worse, since that involved hi-jacking the main BCC event, which is meant to be open to all. Whereas the Cormeen Band Parade was required to wait until after the two main Parades in Armagh were well over, and anyone who didn't like it would be either in the pub, or at home. And it was also in compliance with strict conditions re route, marshalling, emblems and traffic control etc.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 12:30:26 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:44:46 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 05:29:40 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:03:35 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:41:38 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2012, 04:28:52 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome.

Go on, then, which Bishop of Rome was it canonised him, and when?

"And if. You know. Your History. It's enough to make your heart go Woahhhhhhhhhh"  ;)

Ok so you want to be pedantic he has never been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church.

It's nothing to do with "pedantry", it's a matter of straightforward historical fact. That is, when you claimed that Patrick was "created a saint by the Bishop of Rome", you were quite simply wrong:

Q: Is it true that the Catholic Church never officially canonized St. Patrick?

A: St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993.

For most of Christianity's first 1,000 years, canonizations were done on the diocesan or regional level. Relatively soon after very holy people died, the local Church affirmed that they could be liturgically celebrated as saints.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2001/Wiseman.asp#F4

Note the word "local", then look at a local map of Italy...

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 12:30:26 PM
But when the Roman Catholic Church established its first list of Saints , Patrick was on it.

When all the other denominations, sects and churches etc established their lists of Saints, Patrick was generally on them, too.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 12:30:26 PMTherefore he was created and accepted as as Saint by the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

No, he was NOT "created as a Saint by the One Holy etc". He was created a Saint by popular acclaim of the early Celtic Church, locally to where he preached.

You know, as well as being very ignorant, your attempt to establish some sort of proprietary right over Patrick on behalf of the Church of Rome is also very childish... ::)

Quote from: hardstation on March 22, 2012, 12:40:06 PMAnyway, rival St. Patricks' day parades have been part and parcel of Irish culture for years. Who could forget the rivalry of A.O.H Luganderry and The Sons of St. Patrick between 1912 and 1917.

During the last century, there was (often fierce) fighting between two local factions in South Fermanagh, centred around two Flute Bands (AOH and Foresters?).

Anyhow, one of the tactics employed was to try to destroy the other band's instruments. Eventually one year, coming up to the 'Fenian Twelfth' (15th August), a member of one band approached my grandfather, a farmer, to ask whether he'd hide the band's drums in one of his sheds until the big day. Since my granda was an Orangeman and Unionist Councillor, the rival band would surely never think to look on his property (He also was trusted locally to keep his mouth shut about such matters, since he was sometimes also asked eg to sign postal vote applications, or witness legal documents etc, on behalf of his Catholic neighbours who wanted to keep their intentions confidential.)

Anyhow, Granda was happy to oblige a friend, but he struggled not to laugh when approached a couple of days later by someone from the other band, asking "a wee favour"...  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 22, 2012, 01:32:41 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 12:30:26 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:44:46 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 05:29:40 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 21, 2012, 05:03:35 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:41:38 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on March 21, 2012, 04:28:52 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 21, 2012, 02:40:20 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 21, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Celebrating the feast day of a Roman Catholic Irish Saint by holding a loyalist band parade to underline your British culture and identity? Even though he may have been of Romano/Franco/Welsh extraction seems a bit bizarre.

No more / less bizarre than your post.

St Patrick a fenian?

Is that you Shane?

Not a fenian but a Saint created by the RC church, to my knowledge the Protestant churches don't create Saints they use all the old pre reformation ones.

I remember seeing Ian Paisley Senior interviewed on the telly, in the late 90s. He said that St. Patrick was as much a saint to Protestants as he was to RCs.

He was still an RC Bishop.

If you must insist on ascribing a denomination towards Patrick, then you you would be better placed in choosing the only appropriate one for a 5th Century Welshman who ministered in Ireland, i.e. a bishop of the Celtic Christian church, later recognised by all the other denominations of the Christian Church.

Created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome.

Go on, then, which Bishop of Rome was it canonised him, and when?

"And if. You know. Your History. It's enough to make your heart go Woahhhhhhhhhh"  ;)

Ok so you want to be pedantic he has never been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church.

It's nothing to do with "pedantry", it's a matter of straightforward historical fact. That is, when you claimed that Patrick was "created a saint by the Bishop of Rome", you were quite simply wrong:

Q: Is it true that the Catholic Church never officially canonized St. Patrick?

A: St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993.

For most of Christianity's first 1,000 years, canonizations were done on the diocesan or regional level. Relatively soon after very holy people died, the local Church affirmed that they could be liturgically celebrated as saints.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2001/Wiseman.asp#F4

Note the word "local", then look at a local map of Italy...

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 12:30:26 PM
But when the Roman Catholic Church established its first list of Saints , Patrick was on it.

When all the other denominations, sects and churches etc established their lists of Saints, Patrick was generally on them, too.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 12:30:26 PMTherefore he was created and accepted as as Saint by the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.

No, he was NOT "created as a Saint by the One Holy etc". He was created a Saint by popular acclaim of the early Celtic Church, locally to where he preached.

You know, as well as being very ignorant, your attempt to establish some sort of proprietary right over Patrick on behalf of the Church of Rome is also very childish... ::)

Nothing to do with childishness it is historical fact that Patrick was created a Saint by the pre reformation Church which was Catholic (the other churches being break aways) and this was confirmed by the list which you have mentioned. It is good that all Churches can accept and acknowledge Patrick as the Patron of our Country Ireland. And to my knowledge Protestant Churches do not create Saints, or do they? To get back to my original point I find it ironic that this band chooses to do so in the manner it does. When although as we all know, but you won't admit the real reason was to annoy the locals. It is funny that Unionist politicians want to take the Irish flag out of St Patricks Day celebrations, yet this band wouldn't drop their Union Flags and Loyalist Banners in order that they could jointly celebrate St Patrick with the rest of us.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PM
Nothing to do with childishness it is historical fact that Patrick was created a Saint by the pre reformation Church which was Catholic (the other churches being break aways) and this was confirmed by the list which you have mentioned.

Never mind the propaganda about apostolic succession etc, you claimed that Patrick was created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome, which is just plain wrong.

That you persist in trying to deny your error is beyond ignorance, beyond even childishness, it's becoming pathetic.

The next stage is embarrassment*.

* - For the rest of us, if not you...

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMIt is good that all Churches can accept and acknowledge Patrick as the Patron of our Country Ireland.

Of course they do. They're Christians, just like Patrick was.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMAnd to my knowledge Protestant Churches do not create Saints, or do they?

Irrelevant as to the "ownership" of St. Patrick (or false claims to same).

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMTo get back to my original point I find it ironic that this band chooses to do so in the manner it does.

No more "ironic" than eg people who hardly darken the door of their local church from one year to the next deciding to dress up in leprechaun outfits, get p1ssed on Guinness and boak in peoples gardens etc, in honour of the Feast of St. Patrick.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMWhen although as we all know, but you won't admit the real reason was to annoy the locals.

I don't have to "admit" anything. In my opinion, the chief purpose of switching this Parade from Killylea to Armagh was to raise more funds and publicity etc.
Now granted, some/many of these bandsmen might not care if they annoy others etc, but they will also have known that by switching to Armagh the PC would impose strict conditions in order to confine nuisance, disruption and annoyance etc to an acceptable minimum. And they (PC) did, which is why no-one actually was annoyed (other than a couple of idiots who seemingly went out of their way to get arrested).

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMIt is funny that Unionist politicians want to take the Irish flag out of St Patricks Day celebrations

Incorrect. Unionist politicians want to take partisan flags out of Council-funded events which are supposed to be for all of the ratepayers.
No Unionist (or Protestant) objected in any way to the imagery and symbolism etc of the RC Parade in Armagh (nor should they), which was held by and primarily for the RC population of the city.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PM... yet this band wouldn't drop their Union Flags and Loyalist Banners in order that they could jointly celebrate St Patrick with the rest of us.

Whether they wanted to clebrate jointly with everyone else is beside the point, since they weren't permitted by the PC to do so. Rather, they were instructed that they must hold their parade on a prescribed route, in a prescribed manner and at a prescribed time, precisely so as NOT to interfere with the other two parades. Which they didn't.

Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.


* - They won't, I'm sure.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 22, 2012, 03:59:25 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PM
Nothing to do with childishness it is historical fact that Patrick was created a Saint by the pre reformation Church which was Catholic (the other churches being break aways) and this was confirmed by the list which you have mentioned.

Never mind the propaganda about apostolic succession etc, you claimed that Patrick was created a Saint by the Bishop of Rome, which is just plain wrong.

That you persist in trying to deny your error is beyond ignorance, beyond even childishness, it's becoming pathetic.

The next stage is embarrassment*.

* - For the rest of us, if not you...

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMIt is good that all Churches can accept and acknowledge Patrick as the Patron of our Country Ireland.

Of course they do. They're Christians, just like Patrick was.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMAnd to my knowledge Protestant Churches do not create Saints, or do they?

Irrelevant as to the "ownership" of St. Patrick (or false claims to same).

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMTo get back to my original point I find it ironic that this band chooses to do so in the manner it does.

No more "ironic" than eg people who hardly darken the door of their local church from one year to the next deciding to dress up in leprechaun outfits, get p1ssed on Guinness and boak in peoples gardens etc, in honour of the Feast of St. Patrick.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMWhen although as we all know, but you won't admit the real reason was to annoy the locals.

I don't have to "admit" anything. In my opinion, the chief purpose of switching this Parade from Killylea to Armagh was to raise more funds and publicity etc.
Now granted, some/many of these bandsmen might not care if they annoy others etc, but they will also have known that by switching to Armagh the PC would impose strict conditions in order to confine nuisance, disruption and annoyance etc to an acceptable minimum. And they (PC) did, which is why no-one actually was annoyed (other than a couple of idiots who seemingly went out of their way to get arrested).

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PMIt is funny that Unionist politicians want to take the Irish flag out of St Patricks Day celebrations

Incorrect. Unionist politicians want to take partisan flags out of Council-funded events which are supposed to be for all of the ratepayers.
No Unionist (or Protestant) objected in any way to the imagery and symbolism etc of the RC Parade in Armagh (nor should they), which was held by and primarily for the RC population of the city.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 02:17:17 PM... yet this band wouldn't drop their Union Flags and Loyalist Banners in order that they could jointly celebrate St Patrick with the rest of us.

Whether they wanted to clebrate jointly with everyone else is beside the point, since they weren't permitted by the PC to do so. Rather, they were instructed that they must hold their parade on a prescribed route, in a prescribed manner and at a prescribed time, precisely so as NOT to interfere with the other two parades. Which they didn't.

Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.


* - They won't, I'm sure.

Keep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them. There is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh? Not sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are. However the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMKeep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMThere is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence...  ::)

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PM... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMNot sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMHowever the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 22, 2012, 01:51:57 PM

Quote from: hardstation on March 22, 2012, 12:40:06 PMAnyway, rival St. Patricks' day parades have been part and parcel of Irish culture for years. Who could forget the rivalry of A.O.H Luganderry and The Sons of St. Patrick between 1912 and 1917.

During the last century, there was (often fierce) fighting between two local factions in South Fermanagh, centred around two Flute Bands (AOH and Foresters?).

Anyhow, one of the tactics employed was to try to destroy the other band's instruments. Eventually one year, coming up to the 'Fenian Twelfth' (15th August), a member of one band approached my grandfather, a farmer, to ask whether he'd hide the band's drums in one of his sheds until the big day. Since my granda was an Orangeman and Unionist Councillor, the rival band would surely never think to look on his property (He also was trusted locally to keep his mouth shut about such matters, since he was sometimes also asked eg to sign postal vote applications, or witness legal documents etc, on behalf of his Catholic neighbours who wanted to keep their intentions confidential.)

Anyhow, Granda was happy to oblige a friend, but he struggled not to laugh when approached a couple of days later by someone from the other band, asking "a wee favour"...  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0h0Y-gVzFQ   (19 minutes 58 seconds in)

The basic thrust of unionists generally is to prevent St Patrick's day being celebrated in the same way with everyone involved as it is everywhere else in the world.

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 22, 2012, 05:19:58 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMKeep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMThere is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence...  ::)

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PM... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMNot sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMHowever the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

But sure your whole raison d'etre for being on this board is whataboutery or are you genuinely interested in Gaelic Games and Irish cultural organisations?

Quote from: armaghniac on March 22, 2012, 10:58:45 PM
The basic thrust of unionists generally is to prevent St Patrick's day being celebrated in the same way with everyone involved as it is everywhere else in the world.

Exactly!

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 23, 2012, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 22, 2012, 05:19:58 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMKeep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMThere is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence...  ::)

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PM... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMNot sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMHowever the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

But sure your whole raison d'etre for being on this board is whataboutery or are you genuinely interested in Gaelic Games and Irish cultural organisations?

It's a general discussion, they constant politics threads would be a waste of time if you all had the same opinion.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 23, 2012, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on March 22, 2012, 05:19:58 PM

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMKeep rewriting history EG, the Protestant Churches broke away from the Church of Rome fact. Next you'll be claiming the Borgias, oh wait you can have them.

Arguing with a claim that I never actually made? Yep, that's Embarrassment all right.

Whatever next?

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMThere is absolutely no issue or problem with all Christians celebrating Patrick and your picking up on that part of my post which was meant to be tongue in cheek detracts from the facts...

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't being serious" defence...  ::)

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PM... about the motives of Loyalist flute bands and the hypocracy of Unionists who couldn't even agree to a bit of Irish on the Downpatrick Council Flag, so much for sharing the future eh?

Er, we're talking about Armagh here, not Downpatrick.
Still, I might have guessed you'd resort to "whataboutery" sooner or later.

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMNot sure where the beer and leprechaun's come into it, distasteful as they are.

Now that's ironic!

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 22, 2012, 04:34:19 PMHowever the leader of this esteemed cultural grouping stated on Radio Uladh that the had been invited to join the official parade but declined because they would have had to drop their loyalist emblems.

Which was precisely the point [bold] I made when I posted:

"Moreover, if they insisted* at a future date in being allowed to join in the Council event, I have no doubt they would be instructed to drop the Loyalist paraphenalia, and quite properly, too.

* - They won't, I'm sure."

Do try to keep up.

But sure your whole raison d'etre for being on this board is whataboutery or are you genuinely interested in Gaelic Games and Irish cultural organisations?

And finally, when all attempts to play the ball prove fruitless, you resort to playing the man.

Well done - you've now completed the full set... ::)

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 23, 2012, 10:32:46 AM

Quote from: armaghniac on March 22, 2012, 10:58:45 PM
The basic thrust of unionists generally is to prevent St Patrick's day being celebrated in the same way with everyone involved as it is everywhere else in the world.

Exactly!

Really?

St. Patrick's Day - Aldershot:
(http://www.graziadaily.co.uk/pub/21publish/f/fashion/Kate_Middleton_Duchess_Cambridge_St_Patricks_Day_main_1.jpg.jpg)

(http://www.graziadaily.co.uk/pub/21publish/f/fashion/Kate_Middleton_Duchess_Cambridge_St_Patricks_Day_main_2.jpg)

St. Patrick's Day - Helmand:
(http://ukforcesafghanistan.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/1ririshstpatricksday243.jpg?w=600&h=450)

St. Patrick's Day - Belfast:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Politics/Pix/pictures/2009/3/20/1237540367382/Students-clash-with-polic-001.jpg)

St. Patrick's Day - Ontario:
(http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01386/web__London_rio_1386239cl-8.jpg)

(http://scrapetv.com/News/newsbrief/international/images-1/riot-london.jpg)

St. Patrick's Day - Bangalore
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/columnists/2011/3/2/1299110078059/England-Ireland-World-Cup-007.jpg)

St. Patrick's Day - On a street near you...
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/529354_327799833946020_211145305611474_983646_2107348703_n.jpg)

QuoteAnd finally, when all attempts to play the ball prove fruitless, you resort to playing the man.

Well done - you've now completed the full set...

To be fair, the bit you bolded was not from Apples..

It's wasted, EG, completely wasted, that talent of yours.  It was meant for much grander things, not to be squandered on a rabble of deaf, dumb and blind kids who just don't get it, as you, prim as a Portora schoolmaster drilling Latin conjugations, scold them for being so obtuse,  with your peevish "Do try to keep up."

No, where were you when Tony Hayward was making a horse's elbow of himself explaining the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, when you could have spun it so expertly? 

I just love your spin on the Rising Sons of William.  You spring like a mantis to disavow any misguided Pape of the ridiculous misconception that they're an OO outfit.  Of course they're not.  Just as if a Rangers supporter whipped off his blue jersey and donned a Linfield one.  He wouldn't be a Rangers supporter any more, would he?  No, on St. Patrick's Day, just as there are 40 shades of green, there are 1,690 shades of orange, and I'm going to bet that four months from now those same larriers and their 40 other cohorts will be Enniskillen-and-the-Boyne-ing it with their brethren.

I love too that you describe them as a traditional Ulster band parade, as though they were an artifact borrowed from the Ulster Folk Museum or an Ulster fry and that you write, "I have no interest in these Band Parades, nor have I ever marched anywhere etc. Indeed I have a great distaste for any such displays which are designed to be exercises in coat-trailing and territory-marking etc, and to wind up others."  And then you scamper to clarify that they are not one of those aforementioned "coat-trailing" and "territory-marking" antagonists.

You'll perhaps understand a Papish reservation of judgment on that note since much of the summer is filled with like bands festooned in the very same Loyalist insignia not paying honor to St. Patrick but asserting dominion over craven Croppies.  I love too that you distinguish three parades: a Catholic one, a Civic one, and a Protestant one.  Do you really believe that the so-called Catholic one and Protestant one are of like kind.  The former, if I recall clearly from my youth, is a boy scout parade up to the cathedral to receive shamrocks from the cardinal, a dignified act of genuine respect for our patron saint.  The latter, well . . . I don't quite see its Patrician element.

And by the way, thanks so much for the Nostradamus award.  Believe me, in situations like this I delight in being wrong.  And thanks too for the generous words of praise that you shower on the Nationalists of Armagh for their unbelievable restraint in not reacting angrily to a procession designed to hijack a day dear to them, one in which genuine ecumenical bonds are woven, not scissored by sectatarianism.

Well, Spiderman, a belated happy St. Patrick's Day, and I'll leave you alone to spin some more.

Is it wrong to be turned on by that last photo of EG's?

Nice post  Oraisteach.

Quote from: bennydorano on March 23, 2012, 07:13:09 PM
Is it wrong to be turned on by that last photo of EG's?

Nice post  Oraisteach.

+ 1

PS ref last photo, yes it's wrong, is she a glentoran (?) supporter, can't see any shamrock to suppose it's St Patrick´s day

It's worth noting that as usual with these band parades the real losers were the small businesses in Armagh who in times of recession rely on days like St Patrick's Day to keep them afloat.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PM
It's wasted, EG, completely wasted, that talent of yours.  It was meant for much grander things, not to be squandered on a rabble of deaf, dumb and blind kids who just don't get it, as you, prim as a Portora schoolmaster drilling Latin conjugations, scold them for being so obtuse,  with your peevish "Do try to keep up."

Thank you, though the "Do keep up" line was, I thought, more condescending than peevish.

(Condescending means to talk down to, btw).

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMNo, where were you when Tony Hayward was making a horse's elbow of himself explaining the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, when you could have spun it so expertly? 

Don't you mean "Where were BP?" - all they had to do was pay me my usual rate ...

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMI just love your spin on the Rising Sons of William.  You spring like a mantis to disavow any misguided Pape of the ridiculous misconception that they're an OO outfit.  Of course they're not.  Just as if a Rangers supporter whipped off his blue jersey and donned a Linfield one.  He wouldn't be a Rangers supporter any more, would he?  No, on St. Patrick's Day, just as there are 40 shades of green, there are 1,690 shades of orange, and I'm going to bet that four months from now those same larriers and their 40 other cohorts will be Enniskillen-and-the-Boyne-ing it with their brethren.

In their rush to condemn, some posters described this Parade as an OO event. It wasn't.
Of course in one sense, the distinction may not matter (to you, at least).
However I pointed this out to demonstrate that the knee-jerk response of many posters was based on ignorance - for example, posters banging on about "Willie Frazer", or "UVF bands", or "Drugged and boozed up loyalists roaming the streets when local nationalists are on their way home from a days drinking" or (ahem) "Inebrieted Taigs and Tartans beating the crap out of each other at the corner of Thomas Street and Scotch Street" - all of which was complete garbage.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMI love too that you describe them as a traditional Ulster band parade, as though they were an artifact borrowed from the Ulster Folk Museum or an Ulster fry...

Did I? Which post was that, then?

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PM... and you write, "I have no interest in these Band Parades, nor have I ever marched anywhere etc. Indeed I have a great distaste for any such displays which are designed to be exercises in coat-trailing and territory-marking etc, and to wind up others."  And then you scamper to clarify that they are not one of those aforementioned "coat-trailing" and "territory-marking" antagonists.

Once more, where was that? [bold]

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMYou'll perhaps understand a Papish reservation of judgment on that note since much of the summer is filled with like bands festooned in the very same Loyalist insignia not paying honor to St. Patrick but asserting dominion over craven Croppies.

I think I understand precisely why these parades get up the noses of Nationalists etc, which is why there must be strict regulation to ensure that provocation etc is kept to an acceptable minimum.
But that is what the PC (and PSNI) exist for and in this case, the restrictions which they imposed were both reasonable and effective in ensuring that the bands be entitled to exercise their right to parade, whilst at the same time keeping them separate from people who would be offended by same.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMI love too that you distinguish three parades: a Catholic one, a Civic one, and a Protestant one.  Do you really believe that the so-called Catholic one and Protestant one are of like kind.  The former, if I recall clearly from my youth, is a boy scout parade up to the cathedral to receive shamrocks from the cardinal, a dignified act of genuine respect for our patron saint.  The latter, well . . . I don't quite see its Patrician element.

I didn't "distinguish" [sic] anything. There were three parades in Armagh on St. Patrick's Day.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMDo you really believe that the so-called Catholic one and Protestant one are of like kind.  The former, if I recall clearly from my youth, is a boy scout parade up to the cathedral to receive shamrocks from the cardinal, a dignified act of genuine respect for our patron saint.  The latter, well . . . I don't quite see its Patrician element.

No I don't. Nor did I state (or imply) that they were qualitatively the same.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMAnd by the way, thanks so much for the Nostradamus award.  Believe me, in situations like this I delight in being wrong.

Except you didn't win it...  ::)

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMAnd thanks too for the generous words of praise that you shower on the Nationalists of Armagh for their unbelievable restraint in not reacting angrily to a procession designed to hijack a day dear to them, one in which genuine ecumenical bonds are woven, not scissored by sectatarianism.

I do not consider an unwillingness to go out of the way to be offended to be the same as "unbelievable restraint".

The fact is, the PC and PSNI anticipated that if (a ) the Loyalist parade was restricted as to route, banners and emblems etc, and (b ) was delayed until 7.30, by which time all the other celebrants of the day would either be in the pub or have returned home etc, then there would no good reason for anyone to be inordinately put out by this parade.

And as events turned out, rather than being "brainless" [sic], they were absolutely correct - unlike the "usual suspects" who rushed to condemn on this thread...

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 23, 2012, 05:23:42 PMWell, Spiderman, a belated happy St. Patrick's Day, and I'll leave you alone to spin some more.

I predicted that so long as the PC restrictions were complied with etc, this Parade need not lead to trouble on the streets of Armagh, whereas you predicted it would.

Therefore in your attempt to cover up your own error by trying to shift the focus onto me, it is actually you who is spinning - and damned unsuccessfully, at that!

Aldershot on St Patrick's day, what do the Royals get up to?

(http://files.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/544411244.jpg)

Aw, EG, it must be a frustrating burden for you to march around battering that fat Lambeg drum of an ego of yours for an audience that neither hears nor grasps its nuances.

By the way, thank you for schooling me in the meaning of "condescending." Actually, despite my education at a Catholic, thus substandard, school, I did manage to acquire at least an adequate vocabulary, so when I used the word "peevish" I actually meant that word, denoting annoyance or irritation, a quality you often reveal in your posts on this board.

But perhaps the word "condescending" is a propos in the broader context under discussion.

First, let me commend you on your remarkable self-awareness in recognizing that your "do keep up" line is in fact condescending, characteristic of how you treat many on here.  Your openly admitting your disdain offers no pretense of dissembling.  Good man.  True and blue.

But condescension also actually applies to the Loyalist parade that is the focus of this thread.  Since condescension suggests a patronizing superiority, a look-down-your-noseness, an I'm-better-than-you, so screw you attitude, it really encapsulates the essence of the Rising Sons of William contemptuous peacock strut.

On a day long revered by Catholics, one now properly embraced by Protestants as theirs too, this sectarian shower, Loyalist emblems and insignia flapping for all to see, are in effect saying "know your place" and "how dare you" with an arrogance that is at the heart of condescension.

But then this condescension has a meaning beyond the contemporary since it lies at the heart of the very unionist state itself, an entity founded and fed by this same condescension—an institution that proclaimed that it is proper to deny you people rudimentary rights because you feckless Fenians are lesser than we are,  less human and less trustworthy.

So, EG, feel proud that this thread of condescension runs from you, through the Cormeen contingent all the way back to Carson himself.   

And with regret, I am also disheartened to report that St. Patrick failed to purge all the snakes from this land.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 25, 2012, 05:54:03 PM
Aw, EG, it must be a frustrating burden for you to march around battering that fat Lambeg drum of an ego of yours for an audience that neither hears nor grasps its nuances.

By the way, thank you for schooling me in the meaning of "condescending." Actually, despite my education at a Catholic, thus substandard, school, I did manage to acquire at least an adequate vocabulary, so when I used the word "peevish" I actually meant that word, denoting annoyance or irritation, a quality you often reveal in your posts on this board.

But perhaps the word "condescending" is a propos in the broader context under discussion.

For a simple throwaway gag pinched from (I think) Blackadder, the "condescending" remark seems to have left you rather more peeved than I am...

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 25, 2012, 05:54:03 PMFirst, let me commend you on your remarkable self-awareness in recognizing that your "do keep up" line is in fact condescending, characteristic of how you treat many on here.  Your openly admitting your disdain offers no pretense of dissembling.  Good man.  True and blue.

Anyhow, this thread is not about me...

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 25, 2012, 05:54:03 PMBut condescension also actually applies to the Loyalist parade that is the focus of this thread.  Since condescension suggests a patronizing superiority, a look-down-your-noseness, an I'm-better-than-you, so screw you attitude, it really encapsulates the essence of the Rising Sons of William contemptuous peacock strut.

On a day long revered by Catholics, one now properly embraced by Protestants as theirs too, this sectarian shower, Loyalist emblems and insignia flapping for all to see, are in effect saying "know your place" and "how dare you" with an arrogance that is at the heart of condescension.

But then this condescension has a meaning beyond the contemporary since it lies at the heart of the very unionist state itself, an entity founded and fed by this same condescension—an institution that proclaimed that it is proper to deny you people rudimentary rights because you feckless Fenians are lesser than we are,  less human and less trustworthy.

Nor is it actually about the Cormeen band, either, still less about the position of "Fenians" in the "Unionist state" etc.

Rather it is about the decision of the "brainless" [sic] Parades Commission and PSNI to permit this Band Parade through Armagh on St.Patrick's Day.

And as is invariably the case, no sooner had "the usual suspects" on this Board seen the term "Loyalist", than they began foaming at the mouth and predicting murder, mayhem and anarchy etc.

Whereas a simple, objective review of the Parade Organiser's Submission, and the PC's Conditions, would have indicated that it was perfectly possible to stage this Band Parade in Armagh without unreasonably offending, obstructing or inconveniencing anyone - as proved to be the case.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 25, 2012, 05:54:03 PMSo, EG, feel proud that this thread of condescension runs from you, through the Cormeen contingent all the way back to Carson himself.   

It is not for me to feel "proud" at the outcome of this matter, rather that must be for the PC, the PSNI and the good people of Armagh, Unionist and Nationalist, for showing good sense and reason.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 25, 2012, 05:54:03 PMAnd with regret, I am also disheartened to report that St. Patrick failed to purge all the snakes from this land.

"Snakes" is it?

Well let's see how you slither away from your earlier prediction that this (brainless) decision would lead to "Inebrieted Taigs and Tartans beating the crap out of each other at the corner of Thomas Street and Scotch Street"  ::)