Poll
Question:
Will you boycott the houshold charge?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 14
Option 2: No
votes: 21
Option 3: Doesn't apply to me
votes: 10
So, who's paying this? And is it irresponsible of TDs to advise the general public not to pay it?
TDs are law makers so even if they oppose a law surely once it's passed they are obliged to not break it or resign their seat?
Or am I being totally naive? ;D
Quote from: Rossfan on December 15, 2011, 07:09:40 PM
TDs are law makers so even if they oppose a law surely once it's passed they are obliged to not break it or resign their seat?
Or am I being totally naive? ;D
I'll let these two lads have the floor and explain, they've far more experience in these matters
(http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/mar2008/burke_and_ahern.jpg)
While you may or may not agree with it the parliament of the state passed this law and therefore all householders have an obligation to pay it where it's due. I thinks it's ham fisted and scatter gun but there ya go. Of course I will pay it, as I pay PAYE, USC, PRSI, VAT, Excise duties, rates and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all.
These 11 TDs should be ran out of the Dáil pronto.
I'll pay it. However, i will do everything I can to get this ball-less cowardly government out of power and see can we get someone in there to make decisions for Ireland.
This shows the total and absolute hypocrisy of Sinn Féin. They are ranting that a property tax is an abomination in Donegal while their councils in Tyrone and Fermanagh are run their affairs based on a property tax. As an alleged 32county party they are a disgrace and as a political party they are a joke.
Quote from: armaghniac on December 15, 2011, 09:41:03 PM
This shows the total and absolute hypocrisy of Sinn Féin. They are ranting that a property tax is an abomination in Donegal while their councils in Tyrone and Fermanagh are run their affairs based on a property tax. As an alleged 32county party they are a disgrace and as a political party they are a joke.
Erm... But this isn't a property tax. I'll think you'll find SF are supportive of a property tax.
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 15, 2011, 09:31:00 PM
I'll pay it. However, i will do everything I can to get this ball-less cowardly government out of power and see can we get someone in there to make decisions for Ireland.
I can't an alternative waiting in the wings though.
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 15, 2011, 09:31:00 PM
I'll pay it. However, i will do everything I can to get this ball-less cowardly government out of power and see can we get someone in there to make decisions for Ireland.
What are you going to do?
Joke :D why don't they set up a few bucket shakers outside the churches, shops, traffic lights up and down the country too!! Dicks
Have they taken the toll on the M50 back yet, or is it still in private hands?
That'd take in a hefty amount per year, no?
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
One in five of them want FF back in power and almost 30% of them wanted to make one of the FF national organisers our President. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Quote from: Nally Stand on December 15, 2011, 10:59:05 PM
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
One in five of them want FF back in power and almost 30% of them wanted to make one of the FF national organisers our President. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Not your President.
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.
Two interesting letters in today's times - This first lad sounds like a character
Sir, – I'm in my 70s, but that's just the natural course of events. I'm epileptic, arthritic and take heart medication; these things too are no one's fault. I get along adequately on my State pension of around €230 a week. I live, alone and content, in a house I built myself – I mean with my own hands – and while it may not be a proper "house" by some people's standards, it suits me very well.
Apart from electricity and the telephone, both of which I pay for, I have no "services" that I don't provide for myself. I am far beyond the reach of dustcarts. I do have a travel pass; but the only public transport available to me is the co-opted school bus (cheers, Paddy, the best bus driver that ever was) to town on Fridays. A while back there was a mountain fire which came close to burning me out but, after some hours, I managed – alone – to steer it away. Then, too late, the fire brigade came; though I myself had not called it. Later, I got a bill for its "services". More recently I had occasion to call – for the first time in my life and late at night (and I the holder of a medical card) – an ambulance. I had fallen, and cracked my head and was unable to stop the bleeding. The ambulance took me 40 miles to Bantry hospital for six stitches, and I got a bill for the journey.
I wish to make it clear that I am not complaining. Such public services as there are purported to be for the likes of people who need them are only a joke in the style of Flann O'Brien, God rest him. We don't take them seriously enough to complain.
They wish to meter my water? They'll have to meter the stream that flows past, or the rain, so.
For what, then, am I now supposed to pay a "household charge"? Well, I will not. I'll go to jail first. The food will be worse than I'm used to, but I suppose the cell will be warm. – Yours, etc,
HENRY VAN RAAT,
Allihies, Beara, Co Cork.
Can't Pay Won't Pay' gathers pace
A chara, – I attended a meeting in the Yard in Falcarragh, Co Donegal, on December 10th. This meeting was called by the Can't Pay Won't pay campaign. It is gathering momentum as people begin to realise there is a very real likelihood that the only thing in their pockets from now on will be the jingle of small change.
If this thought sinks in sooner rather than later, the "no pay" campaign should take on juggernaut proportions.
I saw people there who I would suspect had never been to such an event before. This is because people are fearful of what lies ahead, and are extremely angry as it becomes clear what these taxes (household, septic tank and water) are really about. It is not about upgrading or creating better services, which should be the case. They are about the unnecessary rewarding to the full of very wealthy investors who took chances on quadrupling their money in the booming Irish building bubble and lost.
People are swallowing tablets at an alarming rate (anti-depressants) and are trying to cope with the stress of mounting bills.
Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan, on introducing the household charge, described it as a mere palatable €2 per week. It's very easy for him to count so little on €2 (he's on €160,000-plus a year).
Invitations to attend the meeting went out to all the local politicians to give them a chance to explain their stance on these charges. Pearse Doherty was the only TD to attend, along with Independent councillor John Cambell. The members of the austerity parties who were invited didn't reply, never mind attend. But it was well noted by the crowd present.
Michael McDowell, when he was justice minister, paid an astronomical price using taxpayers' money for a prison site. They'd better start building quick, because there won't be enough prison space for all the poor people who cannot pay these indiscriminate and unfair taxes. – Is mise,
J WOODS,
Gort an Choirce,
Dun nGall.
It's interesting alright that sometimes the law of unintended consequences can have - Although it does seem a relatively small amount it just may be the cause that does actually motivate the great unwashed?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 16, 2011, 03:05:30 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.
Maybe you would prefer be called western british then?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 16, 2011, 03:05:30 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.
:D :D You on the eggnog again chap? You should seriously consider the 'off the booze' campaign for Jan. It's genius. You get a sponsor form and ask yer mates to give you money for NOT going on the lash. Truly a revolutionary idea.
Since the crisis began we have seen taxes on workers rise by up to 9%. We have seen a pension levy of 7% put on public workers and we have seen an precedented tax on capital in the form of the 0.6% tax on private pensions. All of this was to pour money into broken banks.
However Joe Higgins and his cronies go to war on a €100 annual charge to pay for local services? If he had gone to war on any of the above measures he might have got some support from those who are actually paying the bills in this country.
IMHO he doesn't want that support. That would be a fight between the people (all of the people) and the proxy EU Government. Higgins seems to want a fight along different lines. His target support are those who pay nothing into the coffers only and this will offend those who do pay into the coffers. He wants a war between receivers and contributors and specifically not between workers and those in power.
Sinn Féin's default position is to join any anti-establishment event so seeing O'Snodaigh involved is no surprise. But it is idiotic for a party pretending to want the responsibility of power. Will O'Snodaigh have the support of Sinn Féin in jail? Will Sinn Féin then support anyone who defaults on any tax they themselves introduce? Either they are a responsible political party or they are not.
Back to Higgins. There is a very sinister element to his strategy. There would be considerable appetite amongst the real taxpayers (workers) for action but Higgins is deliberately mounting his protest against a tax that most workers will see as the least evil, like I said, he doesn't want our support. What he does want is the highest possible profile.
I already pay €200 a year for a "holiday home" and get feck all in return. At least in de Nort you get services in return for your rates.
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Southern Irish?? Any pride?? A contender for patronising post of the year. Well done - keep up the good work.
Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that?
I'd rather not take advice from people like Mick Wallace.
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 09:45:02 AM
Since the crisis began we have seen taxes on workers rise by up to 9%. We have seen a pension levy of 7% put on public workers and we have seen an precedented tax on capital in the form of the 0.6% tax on private pensions. All of this was to pore money into broken banks.
However Joe Higgins and his cronies go to war on a €100 annual charge to pay for local services? If he had gone to war on any of the above measures he might have got some support from those who are actually paying the bills in this country.
IMHO he doesn't want that support. That would be a fight between the people (all of the people) and the proxy EU Government. Higgins seems to want a fight along different lines. His target support are those who pay nothing into the coffers only and this will offend those who do pay into the coffers. He wants a war between receivers and contributors and specifically not between workers and those in power.
Sinn Féin default position is to join any anti-establishment event so seeing O'Snodaigh involved is no surprise. But it is idiotic for a party pretending to want the responsibility of power. Will O'Snodaigh have the support of Sinn Féin in jail? Will Sinn Féin then support anyone who defaults on any tax they themselves introduce? Either they are a responsible political party or they are not.
Back to Higgins. There is a very sinister element to his strategy. There would be considerable appetite amongst the real taxpayers (workers) for action but Higgins is deliberately mounting his protest against a tax that most workers will see as the least evil, like I said, he doesn't want our support. What he does want is the highest possible profile.
Excellent post.
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 09:45:02 AM
Since the crisis began we have seen taxes on workers rise by up to 9%. We have seen a pension levy of 7% put on public workers and we have seen an precedented tax on capital in the form of the 0.6% tax on private pensions. All of this was to pore money into broken banks.
However Joe Higgins and his cronies go to war on a €100 annual charge to pay for local services? If he had gone to war on any of the above measures he might have got some support from those who are actually paying the bills in this country.
IMHO he doesn't want that support. That would be a fight between the people (all of the people) and the proxy EU Government. Higgins seems to want a fight along different lines. His target support are those who pay nothing into the coffers only and this will offend those who do pay into the coffers. He wants a war between receivers and contributors and specifically not between workers and those in power.
Sinn Féin default position is to join any anti-establishment event so seeing O'Snodaigh involved is no surprise. But it is idiotic for a party pretending to want the responsibility of power. Will O'Snodaigh have the support of Sinn Féin in jail? Will Sinn Féin then support anyone who defaults on any tax they themselves introduce? Either they are a responsible political party or they are not.
Back to Higgins. There is a very sinister element to his strategy. There would be considerable appetite amongst the real taxpayers (workers) for action but Higgins is deliberately mounting his protest against a tax that most workers will see as the least evil, like I said, he doesn't want our support. What he does want is the highest possible profile.
Muppet, seriously now, how can you defend a measure which taxes the household on €20,000 and one on €20,000,000 at the same rate? Also, you say it's to pay for "services" - perhaps you would like to outline exactly what these services are? My relations in Wexford put in their own water supply and septic tanks (which they have also recently been charged for). They already pay to have their rubbish taken away. They live miles from the nearest town, have to fix the potholes in the roads themselves as well as cut the hedgerows. What exactly are they going to get for this €100 levy?
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:03:10 AM
Muppet, seriously now, how can you defend a measure which taxes the household on €20,000 and one on €20,000,000 at the same rate? Also, you say it's to pay for "services" - perhaps you would like to outline exactly what these services are? My relations in Wexford put in their own water supply and septic tanks (which they have also recently been charged for). They already pay to have their rubbish taken away. They live miles from the nearest town, have to fix the potholes in the roads themselves as well as cut the hedgerows. What exactly are they going to get for this €100 levy?
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Quote from: haze on December 16, 2011, 09:54:08 AM
Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that?
Eh, why is a property tax unfair?
A property tax will normally make some discrimination between the value of the property. This tax does not do that and so cannot justifiably be called a property tax.With this, the tax burden is moved from the rich to the poor - there being more poor household than there are rich. Instead of the wealthy paying according to their means or the value of their property they pay vastly proportionally less amount than those on lower incomes i.e. for a household €20000 take home pay this represents .005% of their income where are for a household on €100000 it .001% of their income. The nearest I can compare this to is Thatcher's Poll Tax in the '80s and look how that ended up.
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?
On your political planet maybe.
Some people are calling it unfair as different home values are incomes are being trated identically.
Seems to be the popular view that this is only for the first year or two to get a system up and running and get households registered. Wait then for it to become more like the rates system in the north with massive increases in rates.
Those objecting now at no differentiation will also be objecting then when it does change
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:04 AM
Quote from: haze on December 16, 2011, 09:54:08 AM
Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that?
Eh, why is a property tax unfair?
A property tax will normally make some discrimination between the value of the property. This tax does not do that and so cannot justifiably be called a property tax.With this, the tax burden is moved from the rich to the poor - there being more poor household than there are rich. Instead of the wealthy paying according to their means or the value of their property they pay vastly proportionally less amount than those on lower incomes i.e. for a household €20000 take home pay this represents .005% of their income where are for a household on €100000 it .001% of their income. The nearest I can compare this to is Thatcher's Poll Tax in the '80s and look how that ended up.
I should have clarified that I think the implementation of a property tax in Ireland will be unfair rather than the actual concept. A property tax as I understand its implementation in Ireland, will not give any consideration to a household's ability to pay (ie their income), which is quite similar to your illustration above of how the houselhold charge disproportionately burdens taxpayers.
It will be based on the valuation that is applied by an external valuer. Now given the disparties that exist in property prices throughout the county I cannot envisage a methodology that willl fairly apply this tax. The unemployed couple who live in a big house in the country (or a small house in Dublin) will have a tax levied on them which will potentially be a lot greater than the €100 household charge. I think this is a much greater injustice. The property buble has cause enough undue hardship on hundreds of thousands of Irish people - considering this I don't think the implementation of a property tax is the "fairest" way to widen our tax base.
But my original point still stands, irresponsible of the td's to adapt such a stance. If they dont want to pay it then thats their own business, however in encouraging non payment they potentially have set a dangerous precedent.
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?
On your political planet maybe.
So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? ???
Quote from: haze on December 16, 2011, 10:59:50 AM
A property tax as I understand its implementation in Ireland, will not give any consideration to a household's ability to pay (ie their income), which is quite similar to your illustration above of how the houselhold charge disproportionately burdens taxpayers.
It will be based on the valuation that is applied by an external valuer.
I believe you to be incorrect on both counts there: the valuation is going to be based on a 'self-assessment', apparently, and further it seems that the amount to be taxed will be dependent on income (as least that what the current proposals are, not that a politician would ever say one thing and then do another).
I wonder if a Garda went to one of the 'peoples' champion' 11 TDs and asked their advice on whether he/she should pay the charge what would the advice be?
If a Garda breaks the law (as non payment of this charge will be) he/she could face losing their job.
As far as I know a TD loses their seat if they are convicted of a criminal offence with more than a 6 month prison sentence - a Garda will lose the job for much less.
Jesus - we have a Dáil full of muppets (no offence Muppet)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on December 16, 2011, 11:06:56 AM
Quote from: haze on December 16, 2011, 10:59:50 AM
A property tax as I understand its implementation in Ireland, will not give any consideration to a household's ability to pay (ie their income), which is quite similar to your illustration above of how the houselhold charge disproportionately burdens taxpayers.
It will be based on the valuation that is applied by an external valuer.
I believe you to be incorrect on both counts there: the valuation is going to be based on a 'self-assessment', apparently, and further it seems that the amount to be taxed will be dependent on income (as least that what the current proposals are, not that a politician would ever say one thing and then do another).
Ok. I see Phil Hogan has gone some way yesterday in providing clarification in how the charge will be applied. According to Phil the "key elements for the tax would be:
The value of the property
Household income
Regional differences between property values
Payment of stamp duty by first-time buyers during the property boom"
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on December 16, 2011, 11:22:45 AM
I wonder if a Garda went to one of the 'peoples' champion' 11 TDs and asked their advice on whether he/she should pay the charge what would the advice be?
If a Garda breaks the law (as non payment of this charge will be) he/she could face losing their job.
As far as I know a TD loses their seat if they are convicted of a criminal offence with more than a 6 month prison sentence - a Garda will lose the job for much less.
Jesus - we have a Dáil full of muppets (no offence Muppet)
"Sinn Féin is not advocating a boycott of the charge but said it will support those that choose not to pay it. "We're not telling people what to do," a spokesperson told TheJournal.ie. "
http://www.thejournal.ie/five-sinn-fein-tds-will-boycott-household-charge-305879-Dec2011/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/five-sinn-fein-tds-will-boycott-household-charge-305879-Dec2011/)
"A party spokesperson said this evening: "We support those who choose not to pay it, but we're not advocating non-payment. We're not telling people not to pay, unlike other parties.""
http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-td-and-independents-say-they-wont-pay-household-charge-304786-Dec2011/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-td-and-independents-say-they-wont-pay-household-charge-304786-Dec2011/)
I presume SF's "support" will consist of issuing statements condemning the Govt for fining someone who doesnt pay ?
That will be a great help at the oul' Supermarket check out >:(
On the main issue - why didnt the 9 potential lawbreaking lawmakers get het up about the 2% rise in VAT which will hit everyone , esp low income groups , not just property owners ?
Average cost per family of the VAT rise estimated at 5/600 per year .
They remind me of a statement someone once made about some politician or other ( EG or someone will no doubt verify the names involved :D) - "A shiver looking for a spine to run up"
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 11:05:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?
On your political planet maybe.
So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? ???
Did you even read my post at all before attacking me?
I explained thoroughly why I was attacking Higgins & co. The household tax is incidental, I would rather pay no tax and am not supporting paying more.
If Higgins was taking a moral stand against austerity he would have done it for any of the far more damaging litany of other measures that have already been introduced. Or he would have started his protest when the first €1 was bailed into the banks. He didn't do it for those issues but he is doing it for this issue. Why is that?
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 11:41:29 AM
"Sinn Féin is not advocating a boycott of the charge but said it will support those that choose not to pay it. "We're not telling people what to do," a spokesperson told TheJournal.ie. "
http://www.thejournal.ie/five-sinn-fein-tds-will-boycott-household-charge-305879-Dec2011/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/five-sinn-fein-tds-will-boycott-household-charge-305879-Dec2011/)
"A party spokesperson said this evening: "We support those who choose not to pay it, but we're not advocating non-payment. We're not telling people not to pay, unlike other parties.""
http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-td-and-independents-say-they-wont-pay-household-charge-304786-Dec2011/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-td-and-independents-say-they-wont-pay-household-charge-304786-Dec2011/)
Weasel words.
Quote"Sinn Féin is not advocating a boycott of the charge but said it will support those that choose not to pay it. "We're not telling people what to do," a spokesperson told TheJournal.ie. "
So If I decide not to pay my income tax, SF will support me?
As Pat the Plank pointed out on the radio just now, many people were ranting in the past about Bertie not being tax compliant and should be thrown out of the Dáil Éireann. The same people are now proposing to become not tax compliant, without of course proposing that they be thrown out of the Dáil.
Can I have a list of the taxes/charges/levies/ that Sinn Fein and the Left Alliance think I should pay but they will support me if I don't pay.
Muppet - Did Comrade Joe not protest against the other issues you mentioned ? You're argument re his "need" for an organised protest from the usual suspects is an interesting one and one with which I wouldn't entirely disagree. After all it's in the Trotskyite playbook.
I do think that this maybe the issue that causes people to organise - I could be wrong but this guy thinks so
A tax too far
"Come on folks . . . it's just €2 per week, and it's for public services," keened the great one.
I have to say, that's a great deal, actually, and would be first in the queue to pay, if only. . .
If only I hadn't to pay car tax, again to be raised; if I hadn't to pay for a television licence; if I hadn't to pay for electricity, gas, refuse collection and tolls on the road.
If I didn't have to pay income tax; if I didn't have to pay a plastic bag levy; if I didn't have to pay car and house insurance.
If I didn't have to pay a health levy; if I didn't have to pay for my children's education; if I wasn't screwed with VAT on everything, bar the air I breathe.
If I didn't have to pay for health cover; if I didn't have to pay the levy for the wealthy and the banks who poisoned this nation.
If I didn't have to buy petrol; if I didn't have to feed four children; if I didn't have to pay for Quinn's demise.
You see, the €2, as Enda contemptuously dismissed it, is just the tip of the iceberg.
Oh god, I forgot the wallop that they took for my stamp duty. Where was I?
Oh yes. Sorry -- but I won't be paying.
On a wet November's morning, two years ago, Phil Hogan refused point blank to take a voluntary cut from his wages, citing personal circumstances.
Mine are outlined above. I won't pay. I worked 30 years in the prison service and have not the slightest fear of entering one of its prisons rather than pay money on my house to facilitate a €35,000 rise for an adviser of the Taoiseach, who was already on an eye-watering salary.
It's time for the Government to get up off its arse and take off the gloves.
Go after the hidden and thieved wealth, and stop screwing the ordinary Joe who thought they elected something different, rather than Fianna Fail lite.
John Cuffe
Dunboyne, Co Meath
SS - Is the logical end of your argument about elected reps always upholding the law not a dangerous path? Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of this particular issue surely it's incumbent on TDs in particular to make a stand if they believe it to be fundamentally wrong?
I'm all for parliamentary responsibility but if the Troika told us to kill our youngest and oldest relatives to lower the burden on the health service I'm getting the impression that our government would consider it. ;)
Declan, Joe Higgins opposes almost everything, but AFAIK he has only organized protests against the Bin Tax in 2003 and the Household tax now.
This is very simply an ideological refusal to pay for services. It has nothing to with austerity or the bank crisis or the TROIKA. It is simple populism promising to get serves for free for his urban constituency.
Also water charges in the mid 90s which was successful I think.
Declan
I take your point. But as far as I am concerned TDs have the right and the obligation to protest, in a lawful manner against any perceived unjust law. But until such time as a majority of the Dáil vote to scrap said law then they are under a public duty, as legislators, to uphold the law.
Where do you draw the line? What about Ming's crusade to legislate for cannabis usage. He believed that was fundementally wrong. I know he has dropped this stance now but had he the right to break the law in his fondness for the auld grass?
Quote from: Denn Forever on December 16, 2011, 12:17:49 PM
Also water charges in the mid 90s which was successful I think.
Indeed.
Did Joe Higgins ever accept remuneration from any of the these Councils and Corporations?
QuoteI have to say, that's a great deal, actually, and would be first in the queue to pay, if only. . .
If only I hadn't to pay car tax, again to be raised; if I hadn't to pay for a television licence; if I hadn't to pay for electricity, gas, refuse collection and tolls on the road.
If I didn't have to pay income tax; if I didn't have to pay a plastic bag levy; if I didn't have to pay car and house insurance.
If I didn't have to pay a health levy; if I didn't have to pay for my children's education; if I wasn't screwed with VAT on everything, bar the air I breathe.
If I didn't have to pay for health cover; if I didn't have to pay the levy for the wealthy and the banks who poisoned this nation.
If I didn't have to buy petrol; if I didn't have to feed four children; if I didn't have to pay for Quinn's demise.
You see, the €2, as Enda contemptuously dismissed it, is just the tip of the iceberg.
This kind of thing appears all the time and not only in letters to the newspapers. The point is that taxation only acounts for about two thirds of government expenditure and whatever amount of tax you are paying you have not already paid for everything.
Quote
I worked 30 years in the prison service and have not the slightest fear of entering one of its prisons rather than pay money on my house to facilitate a €35,000 rise for an adviser of the Taoiseach, who was already on an eye-watering salary.
This guy writing to the paper was from the prison service, probably the single most overpaid section of the public service. The gap between Irish salaries and general European ones is highest for this category. Even within the public service the average salary in the prison service was similar to that in third level education, although the latter literally does have brain surgeons and rocket scientists and well educated people generally.
Oh god, I forgot the wallop that they took for my stamp duty. Where was I?
Oh yes. Sorry -- but I won't be paying.
On a wet November's morning, two years ago, Phil Hogan refused point blank to take a voluntary cut from his wages, citing personal circumstances.
Mine are outlined above. I won't pay. I worked 30 years in the prison service and have not the slightest fear of entering one of its prisons rather than pay money on my house to facilitate a €35,000 rise for an adviser of the Taoiseach, who was already on an eye-watering salary.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2011, 11:49:12 AM
I presume SF's "support" will consist of issuing statements condemning the Govt for fining someone who doesnt pay ?
That will be a great help at the oul' Supermarket check out >:(
On the main issue - why didnt the 9 potential lawbreaking lawmakers get het up about the 2% rise in VAT which will hit everyone , esp low income groups , not just property owners ?
Average cost per family of the VAT rise estimated at 5/600 per year .
They remind me of a statement someone once made about some politician or other ( EG or someone will no doubt verify the names involved :D) - "A shiver looking for a spine to run up"
Presumably because they can't make a choice on whether to pay the extra VAT?
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 11:50:42 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 11:05:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?
On your political planet maybe.
So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? ???
Did you even read my post at all before attacking me?
I explained thoroughly why I was attacking Higgins & co. The household tax is incidental, I would rather pay no tax and am not supporting paying more.
If Higgins was taking a moral stand against austerity he would have done it for any of the far more damaging litany of other measures that have already been introduced. Or he would have started his protest when the first €1 was bailed into the banks. He didn't do it for those issues but he is doing it for this issue. Why is that?
I didn't attack you, I asked you a question regarding local "services" provision, though I accept that on your political planet that may amount to the same thing.
QuoteI take your point. But as far as I am concerned TDs have the right and the obligation to protest, in a lawful manner against any perceived unjust law. But until such time as a majority of the Dáil vote to scrap said law then they are under a public duty, as legislators, to uphold the law.
Where do you draw the line? What about Ming's crusade to legislate for cannabis usage. He believed that was fundementally wrong. I know he has dropped this stance now but had he the right to break the law in his fondness for the auld grass?
Yep I know but history is littered with people taking stands against unjust legislation. As you said where do you draw the line? In the bould Ming's case if he felt that strongly about it I'd have backed his decision to keep smoking it myself. I know you can't directly compare it to say the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s but to me the principle is the same.
Muppet - That's the issue with Joe I think - I don't actually think it's an ideological decision not to pay for services I think it's an ideological/political decision to keep his "constituency" happy. If that means they don't have to pay it so be it but I don't think that's the reasoning behind it - Subtle difference maybe
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 01:27:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 11:50:42 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 11:05:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?
On your political planet maybe.
So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? ???
Did you even read my post at all before attacking me?
I explained thoroughly why I was attacking Higgins & co. The household tax is incidental, I would rather pay no tax and am not supporting paying more.
If Higgins was taking a moral stand against austerity he would have done it for any of the far more damaging litany of other measures that have already been introduced. Or he would have started his protest when the first €1 was bailed into the banks. He didn't do it for those issues but he is doing it for this issue. Why is that?
I didn't attack you, I asked you a question regarding local "services" provision, though I accept that on your political planet that may amount to the same thing.
You asked me why I had attacked those who opposed the household charge. That was after asking me why I defended the household charge. Both questions completely missed the point of my post. But you were trying to steer my argument somewhere that suited you.
I oppose the boycott. Lambasting those organising the boycott is not supporting the tax and no it is not the same thing, except on your planet. See?
More TDs pledge to boycott household charge
Friday, December 16, 2011 - 02:44 PM
The number of TDs boycotting the new household charge has risen to 18 today.
The Government announced in the Budget that a new household charge of €100 would come into effect in January.
Those who fail to pay it by March face a fine of up to €2,500.
Nine TDs, including Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Luke 'Ming' Flanagan launched a campaign yesterday, calling on the public to refuse to pay the tax - and any fines incurred.
Now today, seven Sinn Féin TDs have joined in on the campaign and say they too will not pay the charge.
"It is a bid decision, I don't genuinely believe that there will be jail time," said Donegal TD Pearse Doherty.
"The Government are going to introduce new legislation next year which will deduct fines at sources, but there is serious penalties and serious fines.
"I'm not asking people to follow my lead here in this, this is a personal decision, and anybody who decides not to pay the charge needs to be fully aware of the consequences.
Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/more-tds-pledge-to-boycott-household-charge-532530.html#ixzz1giU30f2d
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 02:02:34 PM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 01:27:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 11:50:42 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 11:05:14 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
Ulick, where did I defend the charge?
Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?
On your political planet maybe.
So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? ???
Did you even read my post at all before attacking me?
I explained thoroughly why I was attacking Higgins & co. The household tax is incidental, I would rather pay no tax and am not supporting paying more.
If Higgins was taking a moral stand against austerity he would have done it for any of the far more damaging litany of other measures that have already been introduced. Or he would have started his protest when the first €1 was bailed into the banks. He didn't do it for those issues but he is doing it for this issue. Why is that?
I didn't attack you, I asked you a question regarding local "services" provision, though I accept that on your political planet that may amount to the same thing.
You asked me why I had attacked those who opposed the household charge. That was after asking me why I defended the household charge. Both questions completely missed the point of my post. But you were trying to steer my argument somewhere that suited you.
I oppose the boycott. Lambasting those organising the boycott is not supporting the tax and no it is not the same thing, except on your planet. See?
I asked you in my first post to outline the local services you were talking about - perhaps you didn't read it? I'm also at a loss to figure out where I attacked you. Are you going to let the rest of us in on planet Muppets rule book so we can play nice in future?
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
I asked you in my first post to outline the local services you were talking about - perhaps you didn't read it? I'm also at a loss to figure out where I attacked you. Are you going to let the rest of us in on planet Muppets rule book so we can play nice in future?
I'm sure you can google the activities of any local council yourself.
But I'll mention one service. They each have an assembly of remunerated local representatives. I would suggest all councillors associated with those boycotters have their remuneration stopped immediately.
Quote from: Declan on December 16, 2011, 04:39:16 PM
More TDs pledge to boycott household charge
Friday, December 16, 2011 - 02:44 PM
The number of TDs boycotting the new household charge has risen to 18 today.
The Government announced in the Budget that a new household charge of €100 would come into effect in January.
Those who fail to pay it by March face a fine of up to €2,500.
Nine TDs, including Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Luke 'Ming' Flanagan launched a campaign yesterday, calling on the public to refuse to pay the tax - and any fines incurred.
Now today, seven Sinn Féin TDs have joined in on the campaign and say they too will not pay the charge.
"It is a bid decision, I don't genuinely believe that there will be jail time," said Donegal TD Pearse Doherty.
"The Government are going to introduce new legislation next year which will deduct fines at sources, but there is serious penalties and serious fines.
"I'm not asking people to follow my lead here in this, this is a personal decision, and anybody who decides not to pay the charge needs to be fully aware of the consequences.
Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/more-tds-pledge-to-boycott-household-charge-532530.html#ixzz1giU30f2d
So when can we expect them to resign their seats in the Dáil so they can be just private citizens breaking a law ?
Hypocrites the lot of the cnuts ( incl Ming who is hopping around looking for causes to jump on) .
I expect the Socialists must be the laughing stock of their comrades across Europe getting all het up about a tax on Private property.
Quote from: Nally Stand on December 16, 2011, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 16, 2011, 03:05:30 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.
Maybe you would prefer be called western british then?
I think what MGHU is trying to point out is.. it can't be called "southern Irish" when Armagh is more south than Donegal.
Quote from: Ulick on December 16, 2011, 10:17:04 AM
Quote from: haze on December 16, 2011, 09:54:08 AM
Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that?
Eh, why is a property tax unfair?
A property tax will normally make some discrimination between the value of the property. This tax does not do that and so cannot justifiably be called a property tax.With this, the tax burden is moved from the rich to the poor - there being more poor household than there are rich. Instead of the wealthy paying according to their means or the value of their property they pay vastly proportionally less amount than those on lower incomes i.e. for a household €20000 take home pay this represents .005% of their income where are for a household on €100000 it .001% of their income. The nearest I can compare this to is Thatcher's Poll Tax in the '80s and look how that ended up.
There are inherent flaws in tying a property tax to the value of a property as well, as is the case in the north. You have people who are 'asset rich / cash poor' who get hammered with the rates bill.
As well as that, in the north, people in a £500k house will generally get the same services for their rates as someone in a £100k house; in some cases, the people in the £100k house may get more/better services, depending on their location. Is it fair for the people in the £500k house to pay five times as much in their property tax?
Also, not sure why a property tax should be tied to income. We tax people on their income via income tax. People who earn more, pay more.
And what's the deal with a TD, Dessie Ellis, being exempt because he lives in a council house?! A man on €100k living in a council house - how does that work?
http://www.thejournal.ie/opposition-tds-to-outline-plans-for-household-charge-boycott-304912-Dec2011/
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1217/breaking1.html
Looks like no one will be going to jail over this.
The household charge (which is rates by another name), the measure above relating to paying off fines rather than jail time, bankruptcy law changes, taking on the vested interests in medical and legal professions, these are all at the behest of the IMF and are the kind of correct governance that would not be introduced by any of the parties in government on their own.
The €100 will invariably rise but you will just have to suck it up. Regardless of bondholders there is a deficit to be closed although the cost of local councils should be reduced by axing the no of councillors and merging councils.
If FG had any sense they should have exempted anyone who bought between 2003 and 2008 for a few years and paid high stamp duty, rather than the extra mortgage interest relief. Divide and conquer as they say.
I am still waiting for Sinn Fein to call for the removal of domestic rates charges in the North.
Quote from: sheamy on December 16, 2011, 09:22:47 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 16, 2011, 03:05:30 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.
:D :D You on the eggnog again chap? You should seriously consider the 'off the booze' campaign for Jan. It's genius. You get a sponsor form and ask yer mates to give you money for NOT going on the lash. Truly a revolutionary idea.
No lad, don't let the time of my post fool you, I only sleep about 3-4 hours max a day, sometimes less. Haven't touched a drop in a month, so thats that theory out the window.
Quote from: Nally Stand on December 16, 2011, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 16, 2011, 03:05:30 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.
Maybe you would prefer be called western british then?
You talking about yourself there, nally!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1219/1224309256797.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1219/1224309256797.html)
Personally I would have changed the service charge to €100 for every one of the following in each house:
- television bigger than 28"
- PC
- Xbox, Playstation, etc.
Means I'd be paying €300, but there'd be a lot of people who are currently lying about not being able to afford it paying as much or more.
I don't think some people have actually cottoned on to what this means as of yet. This is a tax on your home, it is not a service charge. I have already paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home so I could own it outright. What this is saying is,I don't own it. It is not like tax on your car, where once you've paid vat or registration tax, the car is yours to do what you like with, any further tax you pay is for access to a public service. This is feudalism by another name. I'm opposed to the fact that the Government wants to be given a stake in my home, which I have bought and paid for.
The roof over my head is a basic necessity, not a luxory.
I've paid the mortgage on it. With this so called 'household charge', I never going to own it, this basic necessity, In years to come as the charge increases, I be paying the equivalent of the mortgage I just paid, if this charge is established and not resisted, it will never be reversed.
A house is a product, not a service, just as are the clothes in your wardrobe or the food in your fridge. You don't continue to pay tax on clothes while you're wearing them, or milk while you're drinking it, or bread while you're eating it.
Under no circumstances will I pay,Having the read the legistration, if you register, they can seek any Information they wish about your property, its not just records of owners as some people may think, I for one won,t be registering, my house is my own private property, and the goverment has no business seeking any Information about my private property end of story
.
Quotehttp://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1217/breaking1.html
Looks like no one will be going to jail over this.
To address the rumours of taking from welfare/wages, At the moment its only talk,some points Il make on that, one under present law they can,t do it,two ifs doubtful they can change the law to do it both legally and constitionly, thirdly for arguments sake lets say they could do under present law it would still require a court order,and with signifigant amount of people refusing to pay the courts would be very clogged up,fourth the can,t pay/won,t pay campaign has a legal team ready to challenge such stuff in court and to defend all non payers.
The realisation that people were willing to go to jail in opposition to this regressive tax led the government to attempt to change tactics.
CAHWT members discussed the possibility of this strategy being used by the establishment as long as eighteen months ago and how it could be counteracted. For every tactic the government adopts, the CAHWT has a range of ways of dealing with them.
The implementation of this tactic will still lead to a major problem for the government trying to impose it through the courts and that does not take into account other measures of opposition that the CAHWT will launch.
QuoteBut my original point still stands, irresponsible of the td's to adapt such a stance. If they dont want to pay it then thats their own business, however in encouraging non payment they potentially have set a dangerous precedent.
There will always be comformists like you who will accept any status quo, there are others who will not and I praise them, for those who say breaking the law, if you re saying its Illegal to boycott and refuse to pay the household charge, you re saying its Illegal to own your own private property, like the poll tax, laws that do not serve the Interests of the vast Majority will be broken whether you like it or not.
But since you have tha view the status quo should always be upheld, do you think Rossa Parks was wrong when she broke the law by refusing to give up her seat? do you think those who broke the law by refusing to pay the poll tax were wrong? What about the protesters in Cairo do you they wrong to break the law, when they refused to leave the square?
What about The masses who take the streets in Libya, Syria or currently in Russia all broke the law – are you suggesting they should be all imprisoned? South Africa, the former Soviet Union, civil rights movements in the US, N.Ireland.
Grow up – if you want to pay the charge off you go leave the rest of us to fight being.
QuoteHowever Joe Higgins and his cronies go to war on a €100 annual charge
I still laugh when people say its only €100.
Most people are well aware if it were to succeed, it would be €1000 combined with water charges, and most people just cannot afford that,a signifigant amount of people around other parts of the country who have signed up for non payment have already said we are not signing up out of principle, we are signing up simply because we won,t and don,t have that kinda money the goverment will be looking for in relation to a full property tax, the goverment cannot get a blood out of a stone, and in their own words succesfully tax us out of a recession
Meal chi - is this the only charge you feel strongly on. What about income tax, car tax, car insurance, esb line rental, bin charges, water meters etc etc. Many of these are very high in comparison to other countries. Should everyone just refuse to pay them too?
If there are protests it should be around our continued allegiance to this broken euro.
QuoteI've heard a lot from people with the same mindset as Meal chi who seem to be ignoring that most developed countries - and plenty of developing ones - levy some sort of tax or charge on land-based property,
I paid my property tax aka stamp duty already, I am not paying again,the argument its in other countries don,t wash with me, what other countries do and don,t mean it has to be copied, also you fail to mention the other part of how property tax works in the states, if someone loses their job and can,t afford to pay the property tax, their house/property gets seized. is this what you re in favour of happening here?
QuoteIf you buy a real estate property,
the ultimate guarantor of your ownership is the state and relevant local authorities
I get it, what you re really saying is despite the fact people spent years and years paying off their mortgage and all debts on their property, its never finally theirs,the real owner based on condition of a property tax is the goverment,trust me I sure get it and a lot of other people do too.
Quoteit can have a moral justification to put a tax or levy on the owners of such property or land
How can you defend an Uninvited third party extorting money in the form of rent from property owners to pay rent to the goverment? are you a member of Fine Gael by any chance? by the looks of your post you re promoting the party line about the household charge?
Quote
where the state recognises your claim and be its guarantor
Aka protection money, pay your money, everything will be fine,but if you don,t get there shall be Implications, I get that also and a lot of other people do too, Judging from your entire post its very clear you re in favour of a modern Feudalism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q81-DruVvk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q81-DruVvk)
QuoteMeal chi - is this the only charge you feel strongly on. What about income tax, car tax, car insurance, esb line rental, bin charges, water meters
Income tax pays and has paid for services for years no problem with that,motor tax pays for roads upkeep and building new roads again no problem with that,bin charges no problem with that either,water charges Im opposed to central taxation already covers water, problem with double taxation, household charge I do have a problem with,
I do however have an issue the household charge.property tax, the vast amount of people have already paid stamp duty/ tax on their homes already, and now being asked to pay a recurring yearly tax just to live in their own homes, double taxation,I view that as form of theft or I should say extortion, to tax someone for living in their home to bailout a third party, ie the banks.
Most people know the difference difference between a property tax and rent.If I rent an apartment, I have to pay a tax – which is called rent – to stay in that apartment.
Likewise, if I live on my own land, in my own house, I am now also being asked to pay rent – which is called a tax – a property tax – to stay on that land and in that house.
So is there any difference between rent and property tax?
If I cease to pay my rent to my landlord for his apartment, the consequences of that action are for the landlord to evict me, of course. This I understand, for it is not my property for which I am living.
But what about my own land and home I have already purchased?
The home that Im supposed to own outright, having paid all debt owed for that land and home? What if I cease to pay my rent (in the form of property taxes) to my landlord (who is the government)? What will happen?
I guess by now most of you are aware of the threats of fines the goverment has promised.
A
Quote from: Meal Chi on December 30, 2011, 02:35:54 AM
I do however have an issue the household charge.property tax, the vast amount of people have already paid stamp duty/ tax on their homes already, and now being asked to pay a recurring yearly tax just to live in their own homes, double taxation,I view that as form of theft or I should say extortion, to tax someone for living in their home to bailout a third party, ie the banks.
Property tax is paid in most countries. Ireland is an exception, rather than the rule. It is a tax in many countries that aren't bailing out any third party. And home owners in the north pay stamp duty (albeit nowhere near as much) and still pay rates.
Quote from: Meal Chi on December 30, 2011, 02:35:54 AM
I guess by now most of you are aware of the threats of fines the goverment has promised.
They're hardly going to introduce a tax and have no consequence for non-payment, are they?
Quote from: ross4life on December 16, 2011, 05:51:01 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on December 16, 2011, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 16, 2011, 03:05:30 AM
Quote from: Ulick on December 15, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: haze on December 15, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.
FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.
Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.
Maybe you would prefer be called western british then?
I think what MGHU is trying to point out is.. it can't be called "southern Irish" when Armagh is more south than Donegal.
Exactly, all of Donegal, most of Monaghan, most of Leitrim, most of Sligo, half of Cavan, tiny parts of Roscommon and Louth are North of parts of Northern Ireland. Even the Northern third of Mayo is further North than South Armagh, South Fermanagh and South Down.
Draw a line from Galway City to Dublin City, north of that line can hardly be considered Southern Irish. I think Southern Irish play hurling and Northern Irish play football (Antrim and Kerry being the exceptions to the rule) ;)
QuoteIf you buy a real estate property, the ultimate guarantor of your ownership is the state and relevant local
That argument debunked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiSYxaomjhU&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiSYxaomjhU&feature=player_embedded)
I think we should all do a Mael Chi on it and pay for nothing.
That will soon show Frankfurt :o ::)
Meanwhile bollocks Economist property market Nama Bacon says the Government ( i.e the taxpayer ) should guarantee that anyone who buys a house will have any loss of value made good by the Government ( taxpayer).
Jasus you couldn't make it up.
It was the fcukin propertry marketeers and their associated FFrs,Developers,Speculators,Builders,Estate agents, Bankers who got us into the mess.
Now that sector wants us to pay money to get them all going again.