http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ira-victims-to-go-to-libya-to-resolve-compensation-58325.html
Is this for real? 2 billion? Surely the new Libyan regime has better things too than meet Willie Frazier. I'm sure this money will be wisely distributed through an office in Markethill somewhere.
Now that the Middle East is set to become democratised, hopefully those from the region living in the West will agree to repatriate and help rebuild their Homeland. We'll concede in letting them keep the money earned in the West.
2 billion reasons to love Libya. That is probaly about a million for each of the IRAs victims. Did Gadaffi fund the whole lot for 40 years.?
Quote from: Capt Pat on August 30, 2011, 11:52:56 AM
2 billion reasons to love Libya. That is probaly about a million for each of the IRAs victims. Did Gadaffi fund the whole lot for 40 years.?
Nope. the Ra are said to be worth more than 200 million in their own right. I would not be surprised.
Quote from: stew on August 30, 2011, 04:03:25 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on August 30, 2011, 11:52:56 AM
2 billion reasons to love Libya. That is probaly about a million for each of the IRAs victims. Did Gadaffi fund the whole lot for 40 years.?
Nope. the Ra are said to be worth more than 200 million in their own right. I would not be surprised.
:D :D wise up and stop reading the Sunday World
Gaddafi is dead - report
Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 12:53 PM
News agency Reuters is reporting that Muammar Gaddafi has died of wounds sustained today.
More on this breaking story as we get it.
Presumably these boys will be in there next?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204485304576640674153125778.html?mod=WSJEUROPE_hpp_sections_world (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204485304576640674153125778.html?mod=WSJEUROPE_hpp_sections_world)
BBC are saying he's been captured by Libyans.
Gaddafi dead??
Guardian has rolling coverage
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/oct/20/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live
Nally Stand and his cohorts will be looking for a minutes silence.
Quote from: Trout on October 20, 2011, 02:24:57 PM
Nally Stand and his cohorts will be looking for a minutes silence.
GOOD ONE!!! :D
::)
Could think of 2 billion reasons why the Libyan people might say no to this ridiculious compensation amount.
Quote from: Trout on October 20, 2011, 02:24:57 PM
Nally Stand and his cohorts will be looking for a minutes silence.
I reckon it's a dead Sirte.
He's dead now.
They say he had stashed approx US$32bn in foreign banks.
Makes Fianna Fail look like grubby little paper bag beggars, by corruption comparisons.
Still thing it hypocritical for someone representing any nation or people when they come out with statements celebrating Gaddafis death. Just seems strange that in an era where everything should seemingly be sorted and handled peacefully or through a legitimate justice system that certain influential people in power voice their happiness at his death - not really the example to be setting. You would love to know what goes on behind the scenes as I doubt he was ever going to live. Would there have been an order to kill him no matter what and how much involvement/say so would the UN, US or UK have had? Easier to kill the man than let him live and reveal dirty secrets.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 20, 2011, 04:38:06 PM
Still thing it hypocritical for someone representing any nation or people when they come out with statements celebrating Gaddafis death. Just seems strange that in an era where everything should seemingly be sorted and handled peacefully or through a legitimate justice system that certain influential people in power voice their happiness at his death - not really the example to be setting. You would love to know what goes on behind the scenes as I doubt he was ever going to live. Would there have been an order to kill him no matter what and how much involvement/say so would the UN, US or UK have had? Easier to kill the man than let him live and reveal dirty secrets.
Hypocrisy indeed from Cameron talking about the Libyan semtex sent to the IRA
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jun/12/uk.hearafrica05 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jun/12/uk.hearafrica05)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373444/Libya-The-dirty-secret-UK-arms-sales-Gaddafi.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373444/Libya-The-dirty-secret-UK-arms-sales-Gaddafi.html)
Can we Fenians sue the Brits and the South Africans for all the weapons supplied from UDR and Apartheid-era scumbags to their loyalist mates?
Quote from: haveaharp on October 20, 2011, 06:07:04 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 20, 2011, 04:38:06 PM
Still thing it hypocritical for someone representing any nation or people when they come out with statements celebrating Gaddafis death. Just seems strange that in an era where everything should seemingly be sorted and handled peacefully or through a legitimate justice system that certain influential people in power voice their happiness at his death - not really the example to be setting. You would love to know what goes on behind the scenes as I doubt he was ever going to live. Would there have been an order to kill him no matter what and how much involvement/say so would the UN, US or UK have had? Easier to kill the man than let him live and reveal dirty secrets.
Hypocrisy indeed from Cameron talking about the Libyan semtex sent to the IRA
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jun/12/uk.hearafrica05 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jun/12/uk.hearafrica05)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373444/Libya-The-dirty-secret-UK-arms-sales-Gaddafi.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373444/Libya-The-dirty-secret-UK-arms-sales-Gaddafi.html)
(http://db3.stb.s-msn.com/i/9F/B0D1A1C173FA5547B2A7F5722C436A.jpg)
(http://db3.stb.s-msn.com/i/A9/5DA22170C142B048B87799667A1B91.jpg)
Looks like he was beaten to death by a mob.
Brutal dictator he may have been, but they're not exactly taking a higher moral ground by beating a 70 year old man to death - if that's what happened....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1)
Quote from: Tubberman on October 20, 2011, 07:44:39 PM
Looks like he was beaten to death by a mob.
Brutal dictator he may have been, but they're not exactly taking a higher moral ground by beating a 70 year old man to death - if that's what happened....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1)
I would say it is one set of animals replacing another.
Quote from: Minder on October 20, 2011, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on October 20, 2011, 07:44:39 PM
Looks like he was beaten to death by a mob.
Brutal dictator he may have been, but they're not exactly taking a higher moral ground by beating a 70 year old man to death - if that's what happened....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1)
I would say it is one set of animals replacing another.
Depressing, but probably true.
QuoteI would say it is one set of animals replacing another.
Very true ... and only a matter of time before the whole of Libya descends into tribe vs tribe and complete anarchy just like Iraq.
And only a matter of time until whoever comes out on top is courted by the UK and US governments, just as Gadaffi was a couple of years ago!
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 08:34:38 PM
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
I haven't been following it as closely as some of our Middle East experts here but i read about the capture and torture, lynching of some pro-Gaddafi forces and according to Amnesty International some were mistakenly tortured and killed as they were not fighting for Gaddafi but the fact they were black sealed it for them.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 08:34:38 PM
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
Thousands of years of history.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 08:34:38 PM
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
It doesn't look like it. Libya seems to be in the same league as China. Full of barbarians with none
of the sophistication and poise of Portadown in mid July.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 08:42:33 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher link=topic=20135.
msg1035349#msg1035349 date=1319139278
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
Thousands of years of history.
Really, first up I doubt you know anything about libyas history over the last 1000's of years and second, I presume,you have read Irish history so how come we are not like Libya?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 08:42:33 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher link=topic=20135.
msg1035349#msg1035349 date=1319139278
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
Thousands of years of history.
Really, first up I doubt you know anything about libyas history over the last 1000's of years and second, I presume,you have read Irish history so how come we are not like Libya?
How come Ireland didn't up governed by gangsters you mean...
I notice david cameron remembered the IRA victims killed by libyan semtex. That won't do mcguinness any favours :D :D
As someone pointed out earlier, would Geoffery and his cohorts be so obliging and willing to put their weight behind compensation claims for victims who were killed by weapons supplied by the UDR, British Army or South African regimes? I'd imagine not. Sickens my hole listening to dickheads with selective memory. Yes the victims of the IRA who were killed by Gadaffi's semtex deserve compensation but so does all the other victims of state collusion, etc.
Not pleasant to watch, that footage of Gaddafi. I know the man deserves no sympathy given his own record for violence, but I still found it hard to watch.
Is it a breach of the Geneva Convention by broadcasting images of his dead body?
Quote from: Tubberman on October 20, 2011, 07:44:39 PM
Looks like he was beaten to death by a mob.
Brutal dictator he may have been, but they're not exactly taking a higher moral ground by beating a 70 year old man to death - if that's what happened....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1&noredirect=1)
Yeah I agree Tubberman. Thats horrific footage.
Quote from: southdown on October 20, 2011, 10:06:00 PM
Is it a breach of the Geneva Convention by broadcasting images of his dead body?
Read a few different quotes giving accounts of events including one where he had been shot in the head. To me it's not even clear that he is dead in that photo, nor that any beating was delivered
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 09:02:03 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 08:42:33 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher link=topic=20135.
msg1035349#msg1035349 date=1319139278
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
Thousands of years of history.
Really, first up I doubt you know anything about libyas history over the last 1000's of years and second, I presume,you have read Irish history so how come we are not like Libya?
How come Ireland didn't up governed by gangsters you mean...
Quit when your only marginally behind and admit your talking out of your hole...
Minder said - "one set of animals replacing another"
balladmaker said it will descend into "tribe vrs tribe anarchy like Iraq"
You implied you agreed with that which is a bit different than saying we were ruled by gansters.
Minder - I know very little about Libya but I know enough not to make assumption based on a couple of reports on the TV. No doubt some crimes were committed during the conflict but that is the case in every single war - whether it was widespread or not I don't know. What is important now is that the new rulers quickly set up elections which are fair and free and create a democracy. A lot of people on here think that won't happen even though they have absolutely nothing to back that view up with.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 10:53:39 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 09:02:03 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 08:42:33 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher link=topic=20135.
msg1035349#msg1035349 date=1319139278
Based on what lads, do Ye know anything about the country at all?
Thousands of years of history.
Really, first up I doubt you know anything about libyas history over the last 1000's of years and second, I presume,you have read Irish history so how come we are not like Libya?
How come Ireland didn't up governed by gangsters you mean...
Quit when your only marginally behind and admit your talking out of your hole...
Minder said - "one set of animals replacing another"
balladmaker said it will descend into "tribe vrs tribe anarchy like Iraq"
You implied you agreed with that which is a bit different than saying we were ruled by gansters.
Minder - I know very little about Libya but I know enough not to make assumption based on a couple of reports on the TV. No doubt some crimes were committed during the conflict but that is the case in every single war - whether it was widespread or not I don't know. What is important now is that the new rulers quickly set up elections which are fair and free and create a democracy. A lot of people on here think that won't happen even though they have absolutely nothing to back that view up with.
Great advice myles, I doubt anyone in Libya thought of that. The new Libyan PM will be on the phone anytime! :D
I'd say he took a fair trimming to be fair. He didn't end up in that state by falling of his bicycle. Who's to say we won't see similar pictures in the future when the 'good guys' that the US, UK and Nato have installed turn bad. They'd be better of left to their own devices to an extent as the people who ultimately decide who goes into power has no real grasp of the country, traditions and volatile nature of the population.
Quote from: screenmachine on October 20, 2011, 10:59:45 PM
I'd say he took a fair trimming to be fair. He didn't end up in that state by falling of his bicycle. Who's to say we won't see similar pictures in the future when the 'good guys' that the US, UK and Nato have installed turn bad. They'd be better of left to their own devices to an extent as the people who ultimately decide who goes into power has no real grasp of the country, traditions and volatile nature of the population.
He looks like he "fell down the stairs" in Castlereagh Holding Centre.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 11:01:22 PM
Quote from: screenmachine on October 20, 2011, 10:59:45 PM
I'd say he took a fair trimming to be fair. He didn't end up in that state by falling of his bicycle. Who's to say we won't see similar pictures in the future when the 'good guys' that the US, UK and Nato have installed turn bad. They'd be better of left to their own devices to an extent as the people who ultimately decide who goes into power has no real grasp of the country, traditions and volatile nature of the population.
He looks like he "fell down the stairs" in Castlereagh Holding Centre.
If he caught a bullet in the head as some reports say then what do you expect? I didn't see him being struck or beaten in that video, again not to say it didn't happen but think some of ye are jumping to conclusions
When you have nothing to say stick up a smiley, eh tony.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 11:13:18 PM
When you have nothing to say stick up a smiley, eh tony.
Any word from Jibril yet? You sorted Egypt, Tunisia and Syria so you're obviously the "go to" man for this carry-on. Wee bit of work still to do on Israel and Gaza but I have faith in you. Keep fighting the good fight comrade.
QuoteNot pleasant to watch, that footage of Gaddafi. I know the man deserves no sympathy given his own record for violence, but I still found it hard to watch.
Same here, no matter who they are, it is always difficult to watch someone in what you know to be the last minutes of their life.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 11:13:18 PM
When you have nothing to say stick up a smiley, eh tony.
Any word from Jibril yet? You sorted Egypt, Tunisia and Syria so you're obviously the "go to" man for this carry-on. Wee bit of work still to do on Israel and Gaza but I have faith in you. Keep fighting the good fight comrade.
Tony
Have you ever travelled outside Ireland ?
Quote from: seafoid on October 20, 2011, 11:24:50 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 11:13:18 PM
When you have nothing to say stick up a smiley, eh tony.
Any word from Jibril yet? You sorted Egypt, Tunisia and Syria so you're obviously the "go to" man for this carry-on. Wee bit of work still to do on Israel and Gaza but I have faith in you. Keep fighting the good fight comrade.
Tony
Have you ever travelled outside Ireland ?
Look what the cat dragged in. No, I think you're the only person to have ever travelled outside Ireland.
What the f**k has that got to do with anything?!
It's the total hypocrisy of Cameron which gets me ... has he forgotten how the UK courted Gadaffi only 4 short years ago! W**kers the lot of them
Quote from: balladmaker on October 20, 2011, 11:29:27 PM
It's the total hypocrisy of Cameron which gets me ... has he forgotten how the UK courted Gadaffi only 4 short years ago! W**kers the lot of them
Aye they're all the same. Cosy up to all sorts of despots when it's convenient to do so. They'll be rubbing their hands at the thought of oil for arms.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 11:13:18 PM
When you have nothing to say stick up a smiley, eh tony.
Any word from Jibril yet? You sorted Egypt, Tunisia and Syria so you're obviously the "go to" man for this carry-on. Wee bit of work still to do on Israel and Gaza but I have faith in you. Keep fighting the good fight comrade.
The ramblings of a clueless idiot.
Time for bed chaps. Reeling in here for the night but I'll throw a few casts out tomorrow to test for bites *nibble* *nibble*.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
Time for bed chaps. Reeling in here for the night but I'll throw a few casts out tomorrow to test for bites *nibble* *nibble*.
Of course, the old "talk shite, get pulled up on it and then let on you were only getting the rise excuse" I believe you tony, honest. Night night.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 20, 2011, 11:46:02 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 20, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
Time for bed chaps. Reeling in here for the night but I'll throw a few casts out tomorrow to test for bites *nibble* *nibble*.
Of course, the old "talk shite, get pulled up on it and then let on you were only getting the rise excuse" I believe you tony, honest. Night night.
I know when I'm beat. No match for your towering intellect.
Quote from: screenmachine on October 20, 2011, 09:36:07 PM
As someone pointed out earlier, would Geoffery and his cohorts be so obliging and willing to put their weight behind compensation claims for victims who were killed by weapons supplied by the UDR, British Army or South African regimes? I'd imagine not. Sickens my hole listening to d**kheads with selective memory. Yes the victims of the IRA who were killed by Gadaffi's semtex deserve compensation but so does all the other victims of state collusion, etc.
Was thinking the same yesterday. I find it crazy to see images on TV of a mob dragging a mans body around the streets as if it was the norm, and even more crazy is the fact that it doesn't seem to have fazed any journalists/reporters/leaders etc and none are condemning it, unlike the Bin Laden scenario where they seemed shit scared to offend any of his religious peers with how they handled his body which they treated like the holy grail. It seems to be established at this stage that they found the man hiding in a tunnel pleading not to be shot. How he ended up dead in thon state does not take a rocket scientist to figure out.
Anyone else feel uncomfortable looking at the front page pictures of him on all the UK papers this morning? Sense of triumphalism sickened me
Quote from: Declan on October 21, 2011, 09:23:09 AM
Anyone else feel uncomfortable looking at the front page pictures of him on all the UK papers this morning? Sense of triumphalism sickened me
Same as. It just does not seem right.
They are now claiming he was shot in crossfire? That seems unlikely.
Quote from: Declan on October 21, 2011, 09:23:09 AM
Anyone else feel uncomfortable looking at the front page pictures of him on all the UK papers this morning? Sense of triumphalism sickened me
Me too
the Indo was one of the worst , along with the Sun
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/gallery/2011/oct/21/gaddafi-dead-front-pages#/?picture=380756229&index=6
I presume this sort of coverage drives Tony and co
Yeah some reports claim they were driving him away when they came under attack from Gadaffi Loyalists who shot at them and inadvertently shot Gadaffi in the head. If you believe that may I also suggest that Jeffrey Donaldson was on the army council of the IRA before he defected to the DUP.
In the middle of the rabble, the likes of which captured Gadaffi alive yesterday, there would be many who could not resist the lure of laying claim to the title of 'The man who killed Gadaffi'.
Listening to Dodnaldson spouting off on the Nolan show this morning, was sickening beyond belief, does he really think they are going to see a penny?! Some chance.
Quote from: screenmachine on October 21, 2011, 09:36:59 AM
Yeah some reports claim they were driving him away when they came under attack from Gadaffi Loyalists who shot at them and inadvertently shot Gadaffi in the head. If you believe that may I also suggest that Jeffrey Donaldson was on the army council of the IRA before he defected to the DUP.
Gadaffi was being taken away on board Shergar at the time with Lord Lucan in close proximity. ;)
His death, after capture in battle, is a natural conclusion to the life of Gaddafi. It gives some closure to a particularly brutal and corrupt era.
It should be noted that Gaddafi didn't fight to his death as he had ordered and inspired others to do so.
Quote from: Main Street on October 21, 2011, 11:32:04 AM
His death, after capture in battle, is a natural conclusion to the life of Gaddafi. It gives some closure to a particularly brutal and corrupt era.
It should be noted that Gaddafi didn't fight to his death as he had ordered and inspired others to do so.
According to the NTC, British and other media outlets. How can we be sure he didn't go down fighting? I wouldn't listen to much being spouted in the media to be honest and world leaders celebrating the death of anyone really paints a great picture for the position they hold...
Quote from: Main Street on October 21, 2011, 11:32:04 AM
His death, after capture in battle, is a natural conclusion to the life of Gaddafi. It gives some closure to a particularly brutal and corrupt era.
It should be noted that Gaddafi didn't fight to his death as he had ordered and inspired others to do so.
He didn't take up the comfort of some friendly ally in another country. He stayed put.
Thing that gets me on this whole issue and plenty others is how the west has used these leaders when it suited their agenda and then are able to turn on them when it doesnt calling them tyrants and the like. Just look at the list, Bin Laden, Sadam and now Gaddafi, now the west are fit to pontificate about 42 years of a brutal regime, wasnt that brutal that we werent able to buy billions worth of oil off them and keep the money flowing through the regime.
Time for a reality check on this whole situation.
PS any one who buys/ reads the British red tops deserves everything they get in the ways of gutter journalism and jingoism.
In another 10 yrs China will be the ones puttin manners on the western world.
Quote from: NAG1 on October 21, 2011, 11:54:07 AM
Thing that gets me on this whole issue and plenty others is how the west has used these leaders when it suited their agenda and then are able to turn on them when it doesnt calling them tyrants and the like. Just look at the list, Bin Laden, Sadam and now Gaddafi, now the west are fit to pontificate about 42 years of a brutal regime, wasnt that brutal that we werent able to buy billions worth of oil off them and keep the money flowing through the regime.
Time for a reality check on this whole situation.
PS any one who bys/ reads the British red tops deserves everything they get in the ways of gutter journalism and jingoism.
Agree 100%. As I said in my earlier post they cosy up to these lads when it is convenient to do so and when there is something in it for them. When opinion changes and it looks like their oil supply is at risk they back whoever they think is going to be "the winner". They'd sicken your hole but that's the way of the world.
Quote from: seafoid on October 21, 2011, 09:34:29 AM
Quote from: Declan on October 21, 2011, 09:23:09 AM
Anyone else feel uncomfortable looking at the front page pictures of him on all the UK papers this morning? Sense of triumphalism sickened me
Me too
the Indo was one of the worst , along with the Sun
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/gallery/2011/oct/21/gaddafi-dead-front-pages#/?picture=380756229&index=6
I presume this sort of coverage drives Tony and co
At no point did I state any pleasure in seeing his dead body put on public display. In fact I thought it was disgusting, but these things drive the media.
Quote from: Hereiam on October 21, 2011, 11:58:37 AM
In another 10 yrs China will be the ones puttin manners on the western world.
Thats an even scarier thought when you see the compassion that ordinary Chinese people had for the toddler knocked down.
The age of Twitter that we live in means that the pictures were already around the world before the papers had even got hold of them. So therefore they see it as not a big thing to splash them on their front cover.
Gaddafi had too many secrets to tell for him to survive this, there was no way he was getting to be put on trial in the Hague or otherwise.
Quote from: NAG1 on October 21, 2011, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on October 21, 2011, 11:58:37 AM
In another 10 yrs China will be the ones puttin manners on the western world.
Thats an even scarier thought when you see the compassion that ordinary Chinese people had for the toddler knocked down.
The age of Twitter that we live in means that the pictures were already around the world before the papers had even got hold of them. So therefore they see it as not a big thing to splash them on their front cover.
Gaddafi had too many secrets to tell for him to survive this, there was no way he was getting to be put on trial in the Hague or otherwise.
Some of these secrets I suspect will come out regardless - but you're right, Gadaffi knew too much.
Quote from: screenmachine on October 21, 2011, 11:45:07 AM
Quote from: Main Street on October 21, 2011, 11:32:04 AM
His death, after capture in battle, is a natural conclusion to the life of Gaddafi. It gives some closure to a particularly brutal and corrupt era.
It should be noted that Gaddafi didn't fight to his death as he had ordered and inspired others to do so.
According to the NTC, British and other media outlets. How can we be sure he didn't go down fighting? I wouldn't listen to much being spouted in the media to be honest and world leaders celebrating the death of anyone really paints a great picture for the position they hold...
He was captured alive, wasn't he?
I have no reason to disbelieve the account that he was fleeing the area in a convoy, nor any reason to disbelieve the witness account of the circumstances of his capture.
I have no interest in what world leaders celebrate or not, what matters here is the Libyan people and finally they have rid themselves of this despot, they have the cause to celebrate Gaddafi's death.
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319195381305/New-York-Post-US-018.jpg)
This is a joke I hope?
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2011, 03:16:35 PM
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319195381305/New-York-Post-US-018.jpg)
This is a joke I hope?
It's not.
The point about the papers is that they will be laying on families living room tables or what ever an young children will see these images. The media has no shame.
Quote from: Hereiam on October 21, 2011, 11:58:37 AM
In another 10 yrs China will be the ones puttin manners on the western world.
I don't think so. The West isn't going to give up power like that. The developing countries in the g20 volunteered to put more money into the IMF to rescue the EZ in return for more voting rights and were told to f**k off.
The West will go to war against China before ceding real power to it.
And china has massive social problems coming down the line. The economy is a mess now as well.
Quote from: Minder on October 21, 2011, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2011, 03:16:35 PM
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319195381305/New-York-Post-US-018.jpg)
This is a joke I hope?
It's not.
You mean to say that is a genuine USA newspaper!? WTF.
Quote from: Minder on October 21, 2011, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2011, 03:16:35 PM
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319195381305/New-York-Post-US-018.jpg)
This is a joke I hope?
It's not.
Sure there was a picture of fighters in Dagestan (I think) wearing a Tyrone jersey and plenty of Man. Utd. jersies on African Child soldiers, are these victories for the forces of Érin or the Crown, the Yanks are some feckn eejits.
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2011, 05:41:12 PM
Quote from: Minder on October 21, 2011, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2011, 03:16:35 PM
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319195381305/New-York-Post-US-018.jpg)
This is a joke I hope?
It's not.
You mean to say that is a genuine USA newspaper!? WTF.
To be honest, you could put the Sun on the title and Say "Rule Britannia" if the lad had a Chelsea top, and we wouldn't be one bit surprised.
Right or wrong he was shot with a clear shot to the temple of the head. This was a summary execution, not death as a result of crossfire. This does not bode well for the new Libya, IMO.
Ah lads, that's obviously a pisstake. Look at the tagline. The Post is like the Weekly World News.
Quote from: seafoid on October 21, 2011, 04:44:54 PM
Quote from: Hereiam on October 21, 2011, 11:58:37 AM
In another 10 yrs China will be the ones puttin manners on the western world.
I don't think so. The West isn't going to give up power like that. The developing countries in the g20 volunteered to put more money into the IMF to rescue the EZ in return for more voting rights and were told to f**k off.
The West will go to war against China before ceding real power to it.
And china has massive social problems coming down the line. The economy is a mess now as well.
China, not a hope. The US and Europe along with India, Canada and Australia will all band together. Japan will move, like Germany to a more confident military stance (Japan has a very good airforce). Taiwan has military strenght too. Russia will be bought off with a renewed sphere of influence over the non-European regions of the ex-Soviet Union.
On an economic side Brazil is a renewable energy superpower. Malaysia and Indonesia will also want part of the economic powerbase and Mexico has alot of potential, especially as the U.S. neighbour.
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2011, 03:16:35 PM
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/21/1319195381305/New-York-Post-US-018.jpg)
This is a joke I hope?
Went into the shop this morning to get a paper for the train and i lifted this and couldnt beleive it! It was set back down again pretty fast. What would you expect from one of Murdochs rags anyhow!
Nail on the head ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU)
A letter to the New ork Post - Public Enemy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DMo3uQpd40
Quote from: balladmaker on October 21, 2011, 08:20:58 PM
Nail on the head ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU)
Heard that before, the Americans were shitting themselves that the petro-dollar would be replaced by the petro-euro.
Quote from: Tubberman on October 20, 2011, 09:06:35 PM
I notice david cameron remembered the IRA victims killed by libyan semtex. That won't do mcguinness any favours :D :D
Funnily enough it's a wonder they're not charging McGuinness with Gadaffi's killing as well. ::)
Maybe McGuinness tipped off his mates in MI5 about these traitors.
Quote from: balladmaker on October 21, 2011, 08:20:58 PM
Nail on the head ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU)
" is all about Gaddafi's plan to introduce the gold dinar, a single African currency made from gold, a true sharing of the wealth".Give me a break, Gaddafi - sharing wealth? What a crock of sh*t
This speculation of moving away from the dollar has been made before when nations switched from dollar to euro, was it Venezuela and Iran?
But on its own, it is not enough reason for the US to go to war or to create a reason to go to war.
There is no need to look for reasons under the table to find out why the US was keen to be involved militarily in Libya.
And the same for France and Britain. As well as securing a stable flow of oil there will be contracts for massive reconstruction and other contracts, as well as more oil franchises. The beleaguered Libyan citizens asking for help from the West is akin to going to Tony Soprana to invite him to buy a 50% of your restaurant business. but I don't think it will have as drastic consequences.
The protestors in Iran did not have much choice, they demanded military assistance. Gaddafi would have crushed them limb by limb until there was complete subjection.
Was watching some of the clips on youtube, feck it really is disturbing. yes he obviously did brutal things but do 2 wrongs really make a right?
QuoteWas watching some of the clips on youtube, feck it really is disturbing. yes he obviously did brutal things but do 2 wrongs really make a right?
Is the filming of his killing (without trial) too hard to watch?
Would it have been more acceptable to have been like Bin Laden's killing (without trial) and so far not shown and carried out by "western" military forces
They decapitated one of his bodyguards but they aren't "animals", no siree.
Quote from: Windmill abu on October 22, 2011, 11:00:53 PM
QuoteWas watching some of the clips on youtube, feck it really is disturbing. yes he obviously did brutal things but do 2 wrongs really make a right?
Is the filming of his killing (without trial) too hard to watch?
Would it have been more acceptable to have been like Bin Laden's killing (without trial) and so far not shown and carried out by "western" military forces
The clips full stop are difficult to watch.
Never really thought bout your second point but it wouldn't have mattered who carried it out, maybe it's just me but i find brutality to a defenseless person hard to watch, no matter what their history
Quotei find brutality to a defenseless person hard to watch, no matter what their history
I agree with you, both these people have been killed in the past year without trial. They have been portrayed as demons by the media and accused of ordering attrocities by western governments.
Their guilt has been decided by the media and they have been given no chance of a "fair" trial
we should all be made to watch these executions on video if they are carried out in our name by the governments we elect.
Quote from: Minder on October 22, 2011, 11:02:28 PM
They decapitated one of his bodyguards but they aren't "animals", no siree.
Who are "they", Minder? did you hear that from somebody in a pub or did you actually read a witness statement? Or just surmised that "they" did it?
Not a nice end to a despot's life, unfortunately he had done away with all rights for the accused, he had instutionalised torture and summary executions, the chickens come home to roost.
Mussolini didn't fare much better
(http://derosaworld.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c7c7d53ef0133f18597c6970b-450wi)
Looks like the families are getting their compo after all.
Libya to give IRA victims £450m - Sunday Times 23/10/11
(http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/multimedia/dynamic/00216/harrods-explosion_216027k.jpg)
Among attacks carried out were the Harrods bombing in 1983, which killed six people
Victims of the IRA's Semtex bombing campaign are finally about to receive compensation of £450m.
Their lawyer said this weekend that the death of Colonel Muammar Gadaffi last week and the country's formal liberation had triggered an agreement from the national transitional council to pay the victims and their families compensation for IRA terrorism carried out with explosives supplied by Gadaffi during the Troubles. The move follows a private commitment by David Cameron to the victims earlier this month that he would make the settlement a priority.
The deal, revealed on the exaronews.com website, will see families of IRA victims killed by Libyan Semtex receive $10m (£6.3m) each, while those who were injured will get about $3m (£1.9m). A total of 156 victims or families of victims will receive the payouts.
Among attacks carried out with the imported plastic explosive were the Harrods bombing in 1983, which killed six among Christmas shopping crowds, and the Enniskillen tragedy of 1987 that left 11 dead during a Remembrance Day service. That IRA bomb exploded without warning.
Jason McCue, the lawyer who has been acting for the relatives, said Gadaffi's death meant the deal could finally go ahead. His comments follow a meeting at the Foreign Office last week attended by victims' families, civil servants and lawyers.
He said: "When I met the [council] during the revolution they agreed to pay parity, in line with Lockerbie, compensation for the IRA Semtex claimants in the legal action. It's fair to say there is light at last for our international victims after the darkness of the Gadaffi era."
One of those who attended last weeks Foreign Office meeting was Willie Frazer, the director of Families Acting for Innocent Relatives. He said he expected an announcement on the deal imminently, although this could not be conformed.
Excellent news for the families involved. Fair play to the Libyans.
Quote from: Trout on October 23, 2011, 07:50:39 PM
Excellent news for the families involved. Fair play to the Libyans.
It is good news for the families. What odds that these payments were part of deals made for British planes to bomb certain targets, provide rebels (now government) with weaponry and special forces/army in training rebels (now government). I wonder did Gadaffi fund any Basque or Corsican terrorist attacks, if so, expect similar payments to France.
As much as I am disgusted with the weapons and money sent to the IRA in their murder campaign. I am equally disgusted at the fact that the British armed forces sold weapons to the very same dictator. Maybe the U.K. should offer similar compensation to his victims.
Maybe the British could pay a couple of million each to the people murdered by Gadaffi when they were paying him billions for his oil and they and their friends from the west were lining up to shake his hand.
Gaddafi loyalists found in mass grave
Monday, October 24, 2011 - 11:52 AM
Dozens of bodies, apparently of Gaddafi loyalists, some of whom may have been executed by revolutionary forces, have been discovered in the Libyan town of Sirte.
Human Rights Watch said that the discovery of 57 corpses in Gaddafi's hometown "seems part of a trend of killings, looting and other abuses committed by anti-Gaddafi fighters who consider themselves above the law."
The group urged Libyan authorities to rein in armed groups.
The latest discovery came as Libya's new leaders declared the country liberated, following a brutal eight-month civil war. The declaration was overshadowed by continued questions about whether Gaddafi was executed after capture last week.
The US and Britain have called for an investigation
Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/world/gaddafi-loyalists-found-in-mass-grave-525607.html#ixzz1bhVJ3vE9
They will be finding bodies buried in Libya for quite a while longer.
Liberation day in Benghazi on Sunday
(http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2011/10/23/15/30/723-14k9UJ.SlMa.55.jpg)
(http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2011/10/24/09/14/999-14kmdE.SlMa.55.jpg)
(http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2011/10/23/15/29/833-6thCZ.SlMa.55.jpg)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 23, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
Maybe the British could pay a couple of million each to the people murdered by Gadaffi when they were paying him billions for his oil and they and their friends from the west were lining up to shake his hand.
Methinks Gadaffi will sprout the Mother of all Whataboutery.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15428360 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15428360)
53 executed. Seems a great way to christen the new start. Reminiscent of this:
http://jacobinmag.com/blog/?p=1520 (http://jacobinmag.com/blog/?p=1520)
Despite the number of summary executions presided over by Guevara, the most notorious incident of the time occurred in Santiago de Cuba, at the hands of Raul Castro. Soon after occupying the city, Raul presided over the mass execution of 70 captured soldiers by "bulldozing a trench, standing the condemned men in front of it, and mowing them down with machine guns." (Anderson, 1997)
Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2011, 07:46:36 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 23, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
Maybe the British could pay a couple of million each to the people murdered by Gadaffi when they were paying him billions for his oil and they and their friends from the west were lining up to shake his hand.
Methinks Gadaffi will sprout the Mother of all Whataboutery.
This term "whataboutery" is now becoming some sort of slam down to anyone who points out another side to the story. While I have no problem with victims of semtex getting compensation there seems to be a hierarchy of victim and of perpetrator. Who sold the guns to gadaffi, who manufactured the semtex and how did that get to gadaffi. Is Willie chasing the countries that sold guns to loyalists. The guy who moulded plastic bullets, when's he paying up? Where does this end?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 24, 2011, 08:28:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2011, 07:46:36 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 23, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
Maybe the British could pay a couple of million each to the people murdered by Gadaffi when they were paying him billions for his oil and they and their friends from the west were lining up to shake his hand.
Methinks Gadaffi will sprout the Mother of all Whataboutery.
This term "whataboutery" is now becoming some sort of slam down to anyone who points out another side to the story. While I have no problem with victims of semtex getting compensation there seems to be a hierarchy of victim and of perpetrator. Who sold the guns to gadaffi, who manufactured the semtex and how did that get to gadaffi. Is Willie chasing the countries that sold guns to loyalists. The guy who moulded plastic bullets, when's he paying up? Where does this end?
Whataboutery is where you completely ignore the obvious problems on one side of the argument and point out same on the other.
Football supporters are trained from an early age in this dark art. e.g. a United supporter accuses Stevie Gerrard of diving, minutes after cheering Wayne Rooney winning gold in the 5m springboard. This is done with the straightest of faces and in the face of the most obvious equivalent retort.
Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2011, 08:42:37 PM
Whataboutery is where you completely ignore the obvious problems on one side of the argument and point out same on the other.
Myles
might be is a cavan hoor, but you are incorrectly assuming he ignores the obvious problems on one side of the argument.
He is merely putting another perspective to an opinion already expressed. I would have to concede that the point he raises is illuminating.
Whataboutery does not apply.
Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2011, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 24, 2011, 08:28:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2011, 07:46:36 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 23, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
Maybe the British could pay a couple of million each to the people murdered by Gadaffi when they were paying him billions for his oil and they and their friends from the west were lining up to shake his hand.
.
Methinks Gadaffi will sprout the Mother of all Whataboutery.
This term "whataboutery" is now becoming some sort of slam down to anyone who points out another side to the story. While I have no problem with victims of semtex getting compensation there seems to be a hierarchy of victim and of perpetrator. Who sold the guns to gadaffi, who manufactured the semtex and how did that get to gadaffi. Is Willie chasing the countries that sold guns to loyalists. The guy who moulded plastic bullets, when's he paying up? Where does this end?
Whataboutery is where you completely ignore the obvious problems on one side of the argument and point out same on the other.
Football supporters are trained from an early age in this dark art. e.g. a United supporter accuses Stevie Gerrard of diving, minutes after cheering Wayne Rooney winning gold in the 5m springboard. This is done with the straightest of faces and in the face of the most obvious equivalent retort.
Who is ignoring a side of the debate. When I make a comment must I balance it by stating the obvious about the other side of the coin. You are good at definitions so you will know what hypocrisy is. When a British government approaches Libya lookin for compensation for victims killed by semtex supplied by gadaffi while they knowingly had financial dealings and warm hand shakes with him long after the semtex was supplied. That is hypocrisy.
Libya to pay GBP 450m. What a joke ! . How much does the UK owe Basra for 5 years of occupation ? And Afghanistan ?
And Libya paid the Pan am relatives GBP 2.5 bn even though Libya had nothing to do with Lockerbie.
When you are born you get a ticket to the freak show...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ac0_1306559005
Quote from: trileacman on October 24, 2011, 07:55:33 PM
53 executed. Seems a great way to christen the new start.
I don't agree with your celebration of that horrific event.
I would rather acknowledge that the focus of celebration lay with the millions of Libyans, citizens and soldiers alike, celebrating their liberation without the least concern for revenge.
Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2011, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 24, 2011, 08:28:12 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2011, 07:46:36 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 23, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
Maybe the British could pay a couple of million each to the people murdered by Gadaffi when they were paying him billions for his oil and they and their friends from the west were lining up to shake his hand.
Methinks Gadaffi will sprout the Mother of all Whataboutery.
This term "whataboutery" is now becoming some sort of slam down to anyone who points out another side to the story. While I have no problem with victims of semtex getting compensation there seems to be a hierarchy of victim and of perpetrator. Who sold the guns to gadaffi, who manufactured the semtex and how did that get to gadaffi. Is Willie chasing the countries that sold guns to loyalists. The guy who moulded plastic bullets, when's he paying up? Where does this end?
Whataboutery is where you completely ignore the obvious problems on one side of the argument and point out same on the other.
Football supporters are trained from an early age in this dark art. e.g. a United supporter accuses Stevie Gerrard of diving, minutes after cheering Wayne Rooney winning gold in the 5m springboard. This is done with the straightest of faces and in the face of the most obvious equivalent retort.
Me thinks you would be happy if nobody ever mentioned the other side of the story. Whataboutery my hole.
Colin Parry hopeful of settlement after Gadaffis death
The father of a child killed by the Warrington bomb has said he hopes Col Muammar Gaddafi's death will lead to a "speedy settlement" of legal claims by IRA victims.
Colin Parry's 13-year-old son Tim died in the 1993 attack. Semtex provided by Col Gaddafi's regime was used to make the IRA bomb.
Mr Parry is involved in a class action against the Libyan authorities.
He said Col Gaddafi's death does not absolve Libya of responsibility.
"I hope we are closer to a conclusion. It has been a long campaign," he added.
"The temporary government has been helped considerably by the British and the French in overcoming Col Gaddafi's regime. And in a sense the new the emerging nation of Libya owes a debt to this country.
"So I would hope that factor, allied to the natural justice of our claim, would lead to a speedy settlement."
'Done deal'
DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson said that he believed compensation for the 150 victims' families involved in the legal action could be fixed within months.
He added that "significant progress" had been made at a Foreign Office meeting this week.
Tim Parry was 13 when he was killed by the IRA
On Thursday fighters loyal to Libya's National Transitional Council said they found the country's former dictator hiding in a hole in his hometown of Sirte.
They shot him when he tried to escape.
Mr Parry said he blamed the IRA "entirely" for his son's death. He died alongside three-year-old Jonathan Ball in the explosion in Warrington town centre.
However, Mr Parry added that Col Gaddafi had contributed to the IRA's "effectiveness" and said that without his help the group would not have been able to claim as many lives.
"I personally wished he had been apprehend and put on trial. That would have been a better outcome.
"But the fact is he is dead. That's a done deal."
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/680000/images/_683087_tim_parry150.jpg)
From the WTF department
MI6 role in Libyan rebels' rendition 'helped to strengthen al-Qaida'
Secret documents reveal British intelligence concerns and raise damaging questions about UK's targeting of Gaddafi opponents
• Ian Birrell
• guardian.co.uk, Monday 24 October 2011 20.28 BST
• Article history
Britain already faces legal action over its involvement in the plot to seize Abdul Hakim Belhaj, who is now the military commander in Tripoli. Photograph: Francois Mori/AP
British intelligence believes the capture and rendition of two top Libyan rebel commanders, carried out with the involvement of MI6, strengthened al-Qaida and helped groups attacking British forces in Iraq, secret documents reveal.
The papers, discovered in the British ambassador's abandoned residence in Tripoli, raise new and damaging questions over Britain's role in the seizure and torture of key opponents of Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
Britain is already facing legal actions over its involvement in the plot to seize Abdul Hakim Belhaj, leader of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) who is now the military commander in Tripoli, and his deputy, Sami al-Saadi. Both men say they were tortured and jailed after being handed over to Gaddafi.
The documents reveal that British intelligence believe the pair's rendition boosted al-Qaida by removing more moderate elements from the insurgency's leadership. This allowed extremists to push "a relatively close-knit group" focused on overthrowing Gaddafi into joining the pan-Islamist terror network.
One document, headed "UK/Libya eyes only - Secret", showed the security services had monitored LIFG members since their arrival in Britain following a failed attempt to kill Gaddafi in 1996, and understood their aim was the replacement of his regime with an Islamic state.
The briefing paper, prepared by the security service for a four-day MI5 visit in February 2005, said that following the seizure of its two key leaders the year before the group had been cast into a state of disarray.
"The extremists are now in the ascendancy," the paper said, and they were "pushing the group towards a more pan-Islamic agenda inspired by AQ [al-Qaida]".
Their "broadened" goals, it continued, were now also the destabilisation of Arab governments that were not following sharia law and the liberation of Muslim territories occupied by the west.
The 58-page document, which included names, photographs and detailed biographies of a dozen alleged LIFG members in the UK, went on to highlight "conclusions of concern" in the light of these changes.
These included the sending of money and false documents to a contact in Iran to help smuggle fighters into Iraq, where British and US forces were coming under fierce attack. "UK members have long enjoyed a reputation as the best suppliers of false documents in the worldwide extremist community," said the report. It added that British LIFG members were becoming "increasingly ambitious" at fundraising through fast-food restaurants, fraud, property and car dealing, and raised nearly all the money for the group outside of Libya.British security also asked Gaddafi's security forces for access to detainees and their debriefs.
Asked about the document, a Foreign Office spokesman said: "It is the government's longstanding policy not to comment on intelligence matters."
The LIFG eventually merged with al-Qaida in 2007. However, a second document, a secret update on Libyan extremist networks in the UK from August 2008, says the response of British members was "subdued and mixed".
It concluded that those already supporting the wider aims of al-Qaida continued to do so, but "those with reservations retain their focus on Libya". It added, however, that some money raised by members in Manchester may have gone to "assist operational activity".
The cache of confidential documents - which included private letters to Gaddafi from Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and key Downing Street aides - was abandoned when the three-story residence was attacked by Gaddafi loyalists in April. .
There was also a dossier prepared by British intelligence with suggested questions for the captured men. The 39-page document, entitled Briefs for Detainees and labelled "UK Secret" on each page, was written in three sections in March, June and October 2004.
The first section is dated the month of Belhaj's arrest, and sought answers on everything from his private life to his military training, activities in Afghanistan and links to al-Qaida. There were also personalised questions for Saadi.
The LIFG, founded by veterans of the mujahideen's war against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, was for many years the most serious internal threat to Gaddafi, coming close to blowing up the dictator with a car bomb in his home town of Sirte in 1996. The government denied claims by David Shayler, the renegade British spy, that this assassination attempt was funded by British intelligence.
After Gaddafi's clampdown on the group, dozens of dissidents were allowed to settle in Britain. London only designated the LIFG a terrorist organisation after Libya said it was abandoning its weapons of mass destruction programme in 2003. The move is understood to have been agreed as part of the negotiations with Gaddafi's regime that paved the way to the controversial Blair deal.
Belhaj, now a key figure in liberated Libya, is preparing to sue Britain after other documents discovered in the wake of Gaddafi's fall indicated that MI6 assisted in his rendition to torture and brutal treatment from the CIA and Gaddafi's regime.
MI6 informed the CIA of his whereabouts after his associates told British diplomats in Malaysia he wanted to claim asylum in Britain.
He was allowed to board a flight to London, then abducted when his aircraft landed at Bangkok.
Belhaj claims he was suspended from a ceiling and tortured at Bangkok airport before spending six years in solitary confinement at Tripoli's notorious Abu Selim jail. He also alleges that he was questioned by three British agents, one a woman, who ignored his complaints about mistreatment, and that his pregnant wife was also beaten.
Belhaj has claimed repeatedly that his sole motivation was the overthrow of the Gaddafi regime and that he had no interest in the goals or activities of al-Qaida.
David Mepham, UK director of Human Rights Watch, said: "It is extraordinary and shameful that Britain should have supported the rendition of individuals back to Libya, given that human rights abuses under Gaddafi were so egregious, widespread and well-documented."
Anybody see Channel 4 news? Reported that one of the videos of Gadaffi's capture shows him being sexually assaulted "with what looks to be a metal pipe" :o They showed the first seconds of the video and froze it to identify the person who did it but could not show any more as it was "too graphic".
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 25, 2011, 07:24:13 PM
Anybody see Channel 4 news? Reported that one of the videos of Gadaffi's capture shows him being sexually assaulted "with what looks to be a metal pipe" :o They showed the first seconds of the video and froze it to identify the person who did it but could not show any more as it was "too graphic".
As I said the other day, one set of animals replacing another.
One of the first rules/ laws the new regime brought in was to abolish the one man one wife policy, to go for the multi wives islamic traditional model. Good to see they have their priorities straight. Beggars belief in this day and age. ???
Ok right.
Assuming you could afford it, have a house big enough and it was legal etc.
Would you prefer to have 7 wives or 1?
Quote from: muppet on October 26, 2011, 06:47:12 PM
Ok right.
Assuming you could afford it, have a house big enough and it was legal etc.
Would you prefer to have 7 wives or 1?
As long as the house was big enough to keep them in a separate wing.
Quote from: muppet on October 26, 2011, 06:47:12 PM
Ok right.
Assuming you could afford it, have a house big enough and it was legal etc.
Would you prefer to have 7 wives or 1?
Your obviously not married muppet! :D
Quote from: NAG1 on October 27, 2011, 04:05:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 26, 2011, 06:47:12 PM
Ok right.
Assuming you could afford it, have a house big enough and it was legal etc.
Would you prefer to have 7 wives or 1?
Your obviously not married muppet! :D
+1
Jaysus you're head would be melted if you had more then one ! :D
Aaaaaarrrrgggh
Quote from: Minder on October 25, 2011, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 25, 2011, 07:24:13 PM
Anybody see Channel 4 news? Reported that one of the videos of Gadaffi's capture shows him being sexually assaulted "with what looks to be a metal pipe" :o They showed the first seconds of the video and froze it to identify the person who did it but could not show any more as it was "too graphic".
As I said the other day, one set of animals replacing another.
Yes Minder, no doubt the result of exhaustive analysis based on the day by day facts of the uprising against Gaddafi and knowledge of how the Libyans intend to move on from this post-Gaddafi position, you conclude from this capture and brutal treatment of a captured despot that all Libyans who ready to assume leadership responsibility, are a set of animals.
Quote from: NAG1 on October 27, 2011, 04:05:30 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 26, 2011, 06:47:12 PM
Ok right.
Assuming you could afford it, have a house big enough and it was legal etc.
Would you prefer to have 7 wives or 1?
Your obviously not married muppet! :D
I sure am.
There is no point in Philip Hammond blaming the Libyans for the death of Gaddafi (Report, 24 October). The Gaddafi convoy was hit by a US drone. But for the drone, the Gaddafi convoy would have left Sirte unscathed. The convoy was leaving the scene and was not engaged in hostilities, so the attack was contrary to the Geneva convention. It is little surprise that the Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov has called for a UN inquiry. It is illegal under US law for the US to be involved in the killing of a foreign head of state. Obama should be held responsible.
Terri Jackson
Bangor, County Down
Quote from: seafoid on October 28, 2011, 11:25:09 AM
There is no point in Philip Hammond blaming the Libyans for the death of Gaddafi (Report, 24 October). The Gaddafi convoy was hit by a US drone. But for the drone, the Gaddafi convoy would have left Sirte unscathed. The convoy was leaving the scene and was not engaged in hostilities, so the attack was contrary to the Geneva convention. It is little surprise that the Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov has called for a UN inquiry. It is illegal under US law for the US to be involved in the killing of a foreign head of state. Obama should be held responsible.
Terri Jackson
Bangor, County Down
Naive in the extreme.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/free-libya-shamed-by-new-torture-claims-6295394.html
"Free" Libya shamed by new torture claims
The moral authority of Libya's new government was called into question by two international aid groups yesterday as confidence begins to falter that the National Transitional Council, backed by Western governments in last year's civil war, can deliver on its promises to deliver freedom and democracy.
Médecins sans Frontières (MSF) brought an abrupt halt to its operations in the Libyan town of Misrata after being asked by officials to treat torture victims, in some cases to allow members of the country's new leadership to abuse the prisoners again.
The move came as Amnesty International said it has collected evidence that Gaddafi supporters had been tortured to death in makeshift detention centres.
The claims by MSF in Libya's third largest town – a centre of resistance against the Gaddafi regime last year – come amid growing concern for the security situation and evidence of human rights violations. Earlier this week, fighters loyal to the former dictator raised the old Libyan green standard above the key oil town of Bani Walid after fighting that led to at least four deaths.
Human rights groups have repeatedly raised concerns that local authorities have routinely used torture against suspected opponents. In particular, they warned that sub-Saharan Africans, who were accused of being mercenaries during the nine-month conflict, are being targeted. MSF has been working in Misrata since last August and the group says it has been increasingly confronted with patients who have injuries caused by torture during interrogation sessions outside official detention centres and jails.
MSF has treated 115 people with torture-related wounds and reported all the cases to authorities in Misrata. Since January, several of the patients who were returned to interrogation centres have been tortured again, MSF said in a statement. "Some officials have sought to exploit and obstruct MSF's medical work," said the charity's general director, Christopher Stokes. "Patients were brought to us for medical care between interrogation sessions, so that they would be fit for further interrogation. This is unacceptable.
"Our role is to provide medical care to war casualties and sick detainees, not to repeatedly treat the same patients between torture sessions."
Other humanitarian groups have raised fears. Amnesty International revealed that several prisoners accused of being Gaddafi loyalists died as a result of torture while being held in makeshift detention centres. Delegates from the group had found visible evidence of torture on detainees during visits to prisons.
The United Nations envoy to Libya, Ian Martin, said the NTC was failing to rein in militia groups: "The former regime may have been toppled, but the harsh reality is that the Libyan people continue to have to live with its deep-rooted legacy."
The allegations come almost a year after the start of the uprising against Gaddafi's 40-year rule. After initially being brutally suppressed, the rebel movement blossomed with assistance from a Nato bombing campaign.
Speaking in August last year, David Cameron said: "There will undoubtedly be difficult days ahead. No transition is ever smooth or easy.
"But today the Arab Spring is a step further away from oppression and dictatorship and a step closer to freedom and democracy. And the Libyan people are closer to their dream of a better future."
Last night, the Foreign Office urged the NTC to investigate the charities' reports. "The MSF report is shocking and the Libyan authorities should thoroughly investigate the claims. We condemn all human rights abuses and have repeatedly made clear that the transitional government must live up to the standards that it has set for itself and make a clean break with the past," a spokesman said.
In its report, Amnesty said it had found that detainees had been suspended in contorted positions, beaten for hours with whips, cables, plastic hoses, metal chains and bars and wooden sticks, and given electric shocks with live wires and Taser-like electro-shock weapons.
"After all the promises to get detention centres under control, it is horrifying to find that there has been no progress to stop the use of torture," said Donatella Rovera, of Amnesty.
Last July, Human Rights Watch reported widespread looting and arson by the Nato-backed rebels.
What has gone wrong, and what needs to be done?
The growing anti-government protest movement
The country is run by the National Transitional Council (NTC), whose popularity has waned since the revolution. Critics say it lacks transparency, has been slow to restore basic public services and that too many of it members are tainted by their previous roles in Gaddafi's regime. Since October, there have been protests in Benghazi, where the revolution first began in February last year. These reached a head on 21 January, when armed protesters stormed the NTC's headquarters there, hurling grenades and homemade bombs while the council's chairman, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was inside. The NTC has promised to disband once elections are held for an interim government. Voting is scheduled to take place in six months, but there are fears they could be postponed.
The lawless militias
The ragtag rebel army, that surprised the world when it successfully marched on Tripoli last year, is being slowly disbanded. But it's not soon enough for many Libyans. In recent months, there have been several fatalities as militias from rival cities clash. This week, four were killed in fighting in Bani Walid. A plan to reintegrate the fighters by enrolling them in the armed forces has had limited uptake. In Wednesday's UN report, Libya envoy Ian Martin warned that the NTC had failed to bring the armed militias under control and that these clashes could escalate.
The defeated Gaddafi loyalists
Many of Gaddafi's most high profile supporters have fled the country. His family members are either dead, exiled or imprisoned. But it's another story for the lower-level supporters and the thousands who fought the late dictator's army. The UN report said delegates from the International Committee of the Red Cross reported viewing over 8,000 detainees in 60 makeshift detention centres around the country. Some form of justice will eventually have to be meted out to these inmates, but so far there has been little discussion of what form this might take. Some of those who "lost" in the civil uprising have experienced vigilante justice at the hands of the NTC's fighters, who have been responsible for looting, arson and extra-judicial killings in pro-Gaddafi towns such as Sirte and Tawargha. Preventing revenge attacks and healing the wounds of the conflict must be one of the NTC's priorities.
The fate of Saif al-Islam
Gaddafi's most prominent son, below, and one-time heir apparent is being held in the small mountain town of Zintan, an hour's drive south of Tripoli. He's been there since he was captured in November. The International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for him in June last year – but the militia fighters who captured hold him say they want to try him in the country, where if convicted, he would face the death penalty.
Getting business going again
Economic grievances were at the heart of the Arab Spring – and the revolt in oil-rich Libya. But three months on from the death of Gaddafi, banks are still not fully operational and there is a cap on cash withdrawals which means businesses relying on regular cash flow are struggling. There is also uncertainty over whether – as an unelected government – the NTC can authorise the deals needed to unlock the country's potential.
Missing people
Thousand of people are still missing. Some were killed in fighting, while others kidnapped by Gaddafi's forces. Many disappeared in prisons under the former regime or are in makeshift detention centres. A database of all the people still missing is being compiled, and DNA samples are being taken from mass graves being excavated. But it will be some time before the thousands can be identified.
Border security
Libya's southern border with Chad, Niger and Mali, is notoriously difficult to police. The area has long been a conduit for weapons and migrants from sub-Saharan African coming into southern Europe. This flow of weapons has long worried Libya's neighbours and the international community, which are fearful they could fall into the hands of terrorist groups active in the region.
Quote from: Minder on January 27, 2012, 10:56:48 PM
The fate of Saif al-Islam
Gaddafi's most prominent son, below, and one-time heir apparent is being held in the small mountain town of Zintan, an hour's drive south of Tripoli. He's been there since he was captured in November. The International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for him in June last year – but the militia fighters who captured hold him say they want to try him in the country, where if convicted, he would face the death penalty one million dollars for him.
Fixed
Quote from: Ulick on January 27, 2012, 11:40:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on January 27, 2012, 10:56:48 PM
The fate of Saif al-Islam
Gaddafi's most prominent son, below, and one-time heir apparent is being held in the small mountain town of Zintan, an hour's drive south of Tripoli. He's been there since he was captured in November. The International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for him in June last year – but the militia fighters who captured hold him say they want to try him in the country, where if convicted, he would face the death penalty one million dollars for him.
Fixed
Read today he is away showing them where a pile of loot is stashed. He won't be near a court, he will probably "escape".
Or "shot while escaping".
Quote from: Ulick on January 27, 2012, 11:50:15 PM
Or "shot while escaping".
Yeah more likely in fairness.