With a new school year ready to kick off, I was wondering about the whole issue of integrated secondary schools. Are they more popular now? How successful are they academically, and how well do they dismantle the sectarian biases present in some communities? Have any board members attended one? Is integrated education desirable?
I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on this who have some experience. It seems to work well here on many levels in America and also has some down sides.
I know there are more and more popping up throughout the North of Ireland, albeit smaller schools.
Anyone out there have kids in attendance?
I don't know if they can dismantle sectarian biases in hard core areas. I see these schools in neutral enough zones (could be wrong on that).
Integrated schools are the way forward and from talking to the many people i know who attended such schools, yes, sectarianism is exposed for what it is.
In saying that the integrated secondary schools wouldn't have the best academic results which is definitely a worry, so much so that some relations and neighbours decided to attend other schools.
The integrated secondary in Armagh was a shambles and closed within a couple of years.
The "integrated sector" in NI - "holier-than-thou", "wouldn't Our Wee Country be great if we all got along", middle class types who bought into the myth that religion was the cause of all our ills. The simple fact is that no child is barred from any "state" or CCMS school and if there is a problem with sectarianism it doesn't come from the schools but from the parents and community. The sector now consist of schools populated mostly by children who can't get a place anywhere else or "state" schools who, due to falling numbers, have re-branded themselves as "integrated" in order to get extra support. Integrated education (in the true meaning of the expression) may be the further but "integrated education" is certainly not.
Thumbs up.
Having attended an integrated primary during my formative years I can say that it was some respects as good as if not better than a lot of the small rural primary schools that exist within our part of the world. I think it was enriching to have some experience early on of different religions not just the obvious two still being able to do holy communion, confirmation etc. However in saying that when it came to making the step into secondary the standard of education to be gained at the catholic grammar was far superior. It was interesting to see the Protestant folk go off to a Royal School while the catholics went to the local catholic grammar having been together for many years. The secondary education system based on religion is steeped in history and is of a good standard which is certainly something to be proud of. What doesn't make sense is these tiny rural schools struggling to have enough pupils and a small protestant school up the road with the same problem. Surely putting them in together at an early age is better for many reasons including financially.
Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh? Where were they located? What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?
Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions. Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled). I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school.
Sent both my kids to Integrated primary in Armagh and I thought it was a good school. The truth is though that the kids attitudes come from the parents....in other words kids from bigoted parents were still going to be bigoted.
The Secondary was a disaster from day one with crap appointments as principal, leading to friction with the staff, which led to long term sick leave which in turn was kept from the parents, until a few like myself queried why there was little homework, no feedback on any work, and no reports. A parents meeting was called and when I learnt the truth I immediately removed my son from the school. Best move I ever made.
In reality Armagh was never going to have the numbers to sustain the school.
Quote from: Oraisteach on August 18, 2011, 09:40:45 PM
Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh? Where were they located? What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?
Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions. Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled). I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school.
I didn't meet a woman until I was 16, didn't stop me loving them all the same.
Quote from: Oraisteach on August 18, 2011, 09:40:45 PM
Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh? Where were they located? What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?
Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions. Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled). I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school.
Number of reasons - the locals didn't buy in to the whole concept so it had low numbers some of whom seemed to have been "problem pupils" from other schools. The head was also suspended due to allegations of workplace bullying. The final nail in the coffin was a disastrous inspection http://apps.deni.gov.uk/insp/inspection_reports/2007_06/standard_inspection_armagh_integrated_college.PDF (http://apps.deni.gov.uk/insp/inspection_reports/2007_06/standard_inspection_armagh_integrated_college.PDF)
Quote from: Ulick on August 18, 2011, 08:55:36 PM
The "integrated sector" in NI - "holier-than-thou", "wouldn't Our Wee Country be great if we all got along", middle class types who bought into the myth that religion was the cause of all our ills. The simple fact is that no child is barred from any "state" or CCMS school and if there is a problem with sectarianism it doesn't come from the schools but from the parents and community. The sector now consist of schools populated mostly by children who can't get a place anywhere else or "state" schools who, due to falling numbers, have re-branded themselves as "integrated" in order to get extra support. Integrated education (in the true meaning of the expression) may be the further but "integrated education" is certainly not.
"myth that religion was the cause of all our ills"? I would have thought that it was about segregation of different communities - the religious element is only a detail of that. You say that sectarianism doesn't come from schools but from parents and the communities - that ignores the role that schools have in shaping communities and influencing the next generation of parents. And to say that no child is 'barred' from a specific sector is disingenuous and offers no solution.
Also, I don't understand your point about those in integrated schools only being there because they can't get get a place elsewhere. I've never heard that before and can't understand where that would be the case. What schools are these children being rejected from and why? You've already said that no child is barred from any school.
All schools should be state schools with 'religious education' at Sunday schools or equivalent.
Integration is the only way forward. We wouldn't accept different schools for black children and white children, so why accept the current scenario?
Quote from: Ulick on August 18, 2011, 10:01:00 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on August 18, 2011, 09:40:45 PM
Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh? Where were they located? What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?
Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions. Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled). I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school.
I didn't meet a woman until I was 16, didn't stop me loving them all the same.
Not even outside of school?
A Big Thumbs Down!
I have no problem with it per se but I don't think I would send my kids there unless they really wanted to go.
I loved the School I went to and would want my kids to have the same experiences I had. Even in a Catholic Grammar we were always told to respect people of other faiths and were often involved in Cross Community events so I don't see how this is an issue really. What kind of school would be promoting sectarianism anyway??
Like I said I would have no problem with it if the School's standards were up to scratch and my kids really wanted to go there. As long as the4 kids are being well educated then I don't really see what the problem is.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
Defo the way to go
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ulick on August 18, 2011, 08:55:36 PM
The "integrated sector" in NI - "holier-than-thou", "wouldn't Our Wee Country be great if we all got along", middle class types who bought into the myth that religion was the cause of all our ills. The simple fact is that no child is barred from any "state" or CCMS school and if there is a problem with sectarianism it doesn't come from the schools but from the parents and community. The sector now consist of schools populated mostly by children who can't get a place anywhere else or "state" schools who, due to falling numbers, have re-branded themselves as "integrated" in order to get extra support. Integrated education (in the true meaning of the expression) may be the further but "integrated education" is certainly not.
"myth that religion was the cause of all our ills"? I would have thought that it was about segregation of different communities - the religious element is only a detail of that. You say that sectarianism doesn't come from schools but from parents and the communities - that ignores the role that schools have in shaping communities and influencing the next generation of parents. And to say that no child is 'barred' from a specific sector is disingenuous and offers no solution.
Also, I don't understand your point about those in integrated schools only being there because they can't get get a place elsewhere. I've never heard that before and can't understand where that would be the case. What schools are these children being rejected from and why? You've already said that no child is barred from any school.
All schools should be state schools with 'religious education' at Sunday schools or equivalent.
Integration is the only way forward. We wouldn't accept different schools for black children and white children, so why accept the current scenario?
Obviously I meant no child is barred on the basis of religion, however most "integrated schools" don't use academic selection, so in a system dominated by academic selection, many will end up there as last resort.
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
Quote from: Ulick on August 18, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ulick on August 18, 2011, 08:55:36 PM
The "integrated sector" in NI - "holier-than-thou", "wouldn't Our Wee Country be great if we all got along", middle class types who bought into the myth that religion was the cause of all our ills. The simple fact is that no child is barred from any "state" or CCMS school and if there is a problem with sectarianism it doesn't come from the schools but from the parents and community. The sector now consist of schools populated mostly by children who can't get a place anywhere else or "state" schools who, due to falling numbers, have re-branded themselves as "integrated" in order to get extra support. Integrated education (in the true meaning of the expression) may be the further but "integrated education" is certainly not.
"myth that religion was the cause of all our ills"? I would have thought that it was about segregation of different communities - the religious element is only a detail of that. You say that sectarianism doesn't come from schools but from parents and the communities - that ignores the role that schools have in shaping communities and influencing the next generation of parents. And to say that no child is 'barred' from a specific sector is disingenuous and offers no solution.
Also, I don't understand your point about those in integrated schools only being there because they can't get get a place elsewhere. I've never heard that before and can't understand where that would be the case. What schools are these children being rejected from and why? You've already said that no child is barred from any school.
All schools should be state schools with 'religious education' at Sunday schools or equivalent.
Integration is the only way forward. We wouldn't accept different schools for black children and white children, so why accept the current scenario?
Obviously I meant no child is barred on the basis of religion, however most "integrated schools" don't use academic selection, so in a system dominated by academic selection, many will end up there as last resort.
Why would it be any more of a last resort than the local (segregated) non-grammar?
And what about the rest of my points?
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
How many Integrated schools have gaelic football, hurling or camogie teams?
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
There'd be a certain amount, but not enough emphasis or importance put on both.
Quote from: Orior on August 18, 2011, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
How many Integrated schools have gaelic football, hurling or camogie teams?
Might be relevant in a word without clubs.
Quote from: Orior on August 18, 2011, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
How many Integrated schools have gaelic football, hurling or camogie teams?
That's with the current system, where there's a half-hearted effort at integration, competing with the two established sectors. If the whole system was integrated then there's be just as many teams, if not more.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 11:13:56 PM
Quote from: Orior on August 18, 2011, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
How many Integrated schools have gaelic football, hurling or camogie teams?
That's with the current system, where there's a half-hearted effort at integration, competing with the two established sectors. If the whole system was integrated then there's be just as many teams, if not more.
Maybe its half-hearted because people can see through this integrated education crap. By any chance, were you educated in the North?
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 11:13:56 PM
Quote from: Orior on August 18, 2011, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
How many Integrated schools have gaelic football, hurling or camogie teams?
That's with the current system, where there's a half-hearted effort at integration, competing with the two established sectors. If the whole system was integrated then there's be just as many teams, if not more.
Maybe its half-hearted because people can see through this integrated education crap. By any chance, were you educated in the North?
What is there to see through? Is there really something wrong with prods and Catholics being educated together?
What is there to see through? Is there really something wrong with prods and Catholics being educated together?
In Primary and Secondary education, yes.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 18, 2011, 11:36:10 PM
How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?
How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?
In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area. This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife.
After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.
How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them? None
How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None
Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?
Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife? No.
Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.
Non-Catholic children are welcome if they sign up to upholding the Catholic ethos I assume?!
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 11:40:09 PM
What is there to see through? Is there really something wrong with prods and Catholics being educated together?
In Primary and Secondary education, yes.
I assume you went to a catholic school so which in itself seems a great advertisement for integration to me.
Definitely, segregation is good. If the world has learned anything in the last few generations, this is it. Look how successful it was in South Africa, the Southern US states, etc. Ghettoisation is the lifeblood of functional communities. Look at Harlem, Tottenham, Soweto. It's definitely the way forward.
It's such a positive life influence to separate kids by some arbitrary determination of what differentiates them that we should really go for it and have separate schools for boys and girls, blacks and whites, ciotogs and normal people, Manchester United supporters and Liverpool supporters and so on. All of that would make some sense, as it would at last be based on different characteristics of the kids themselves rather than on which particular mediaeval mythology their parents subscribe to.
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
(http://pterosauria.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/brontosaurus-drawing.jpg)
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 11:13:56 PM
Quote from: Orior on August 18, 2011, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
You really think that if the education system was properly integrated that there'd be no GAA or Irish?
How many Integrated schools have gaelic football, hurling or camogie teams?
That's with the current system, where there's a half-hearted effort at integration, competing with the two established sectors. If the whole system was integrated then there's be just as many teams, if not more.
Maybe its half-hearted because people can see through this integrated education crap. By any chance, were you educated in the North?
Yes. Why, is that relevant?
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 11:40:09 PM
What is there to see through? Is there really something wrong with prods and Catholics being educated together?
In Primary and Secondary education, yes.
Why stop there? Extend it to third level, to the workplace... why bother mixing at all, eh? Sure it'll only dilute our culture.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 18, 2011, 11:36:10 PM
How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?
How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?
In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area. This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife.
After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.
How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them? None
How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None
Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?
Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife? No.
Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.
The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.
If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?
Is catholic education in the wee 6 as poor as it is down South ?
This is from the irish economy site
1. kevin denny Says:
August 18th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
I would encourage people to look at the LC economics paper & more importantly the marking scheme on the Examinations Commission website. I do this regularly despite the fits of apoplexy it tends to induce.
I find it hard to believe a well trained economist is responsible for the exam papers. Some of the solutions are dubious,
others wrong. The whole tenor of the paper is rather quaint.
1. Aedin Doris Says:
August 18th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
@ Kevin Denny
I agree. I once had a substantial minority of students giving a weird answer to a question on an assignment, and copped it must have come from the LC. When I went looking online for the source, I found it in the previous year's marking scheme. It contained both incorrect and irrelevant stuff. I did write to the Exam Commission and they acknowledged my email but that was it.
Teaching first year Micro, I'm always struck by how students who've done the LC are _dying_ to talk about Giffen goods. Seeing as there is no clear evidence of one of these ever having existed, it seems a strange topic to emphasize.
I read somewhere that a revised LC Economics syllabus had been agreed but not implemented. I know that retraining/upskilling teachers is not a zero cost exercise, but it seems like a strange way of economizing to pay teachers to stand at the top of the class saying stuff that's wrong and/or unimportant.
I dont believe that school should have any role in religious identity - that is the job of the church, and if people want religious guidance they should go there.
Therefore i dont see why schools should be segregated by religion, or by "religious ethos" at all. I dont see any educational or social advantage of segregating people.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 07:36:50 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 18, 2011, 11:36:10 PM
How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?
How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?
In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area. This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife.
After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.
How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them? None
How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None
Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?
Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife? No.
Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.
The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.
If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?
There is no such thing as a "segregated sector" there is choice between four setups. If parents and children choose to segregate then that is their choice.
Thumbs down, I've spoken to people who attended integrated schools here in Belfast and they said that there was bullying on religious grounds happening in the school on a regular basis, these schools would all tend to have a large majority from the protestant side and smaller numbers from the catholic side.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on August 19, 2011, 09:57:02 AM
all tend to have a large majority from the protestant side and smaller numbers from the catholic side.
[/quo
The one my son will attend this year, and my daughter attended has a policy of 50% catholic and 50% other. So allowing for other reglions or none, there would be more catholics there. My daughter has more catholic friends than protestants. Means nothing to me what religon her friends are but can you see that being the case without int. schools?
So how would all you supporter of "integrated education" feel about a totally secular school with an Irish cultural ethos - would you also class that as segregationist?
Quote from: dillinger on August 19, 2011, 11:00:00 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on August 19, 2011, 09:57:02 AM
all tend to have a large majority from the protestant side and smaller numbers from the catholic side.
[/quo
The one my son will attend this year, and my daughter attended has a policy of 50% catholic and 50% other. So allowing for other reglions or none, there would be more catholics there. My daughter has more catholic friends than protestants. Means nothing to me what religon her friends are but can you see that being the case without int. schools?
Depends where you live.
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 11:32:39 AMSo how would all you supporter of "integrated education" feel about a totally secular school with an Irish cultural ethos - would you also class that as segregationist?
I'd be all for it.
For one thing, it would ingrain in our children all those essential elements of Irish culture such as Drunkenness, Marching, Demonstrating, Rioting, Terrorism, Bigotry, "Loyal Orders" and Parochial (literally) Small-Mindedness.
And it would be a great way keeping them away from Darkies, Muslims, English Literature, Contraception, Pasta (and other foreign foods) and all the other things which have left this country in the state it's in.
P.S. Would there be any of them Fenian Priests teaching in these schools? For you can say what you like about Buggery and the Stick, but it at least kept manners on the little feckers and I'm sure young Prod's could benefit from a good batin' to hammer the fear of God into them. (That's a Protestant God, obviously - I'm sure the syllabus could be managed to make that clear)
Evil Genius, I follow your posts on the various threads with great interest. You do on many occasions generate good discussion and challenge members to question their own values and attitudes. You would no doubt give this as you reason for posting on, what is a forum for discussion mainly populated by supporters of the GAA.
However occasionally the mask slips and posts like that last one show exactly what type of person you are and the way you think. Don't bother replying to me as I will not respond again. Your history of posting shows that a response is what your trying to provoke. It's a pity you post items like the last one as it undermines a lot of your other arguments.
Integrated schools would be great if there was no prods at them.
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
Whatever about the dance etc the biggest threat to the promotion of GAA in primary schools is the lack of young male primary school teachers. The majority of primary school teachers are women and while you will have some who are GAA orientated it is less likely than if they were men. My 2 youngest ones are at an integrated primary school and it is excellent, in regards to academic levels. It is probably split 65-35 in favour of catholics and they have a very broad and rounded education. They receive all the scarements and have a very christian approach. The GAA were send a coach to the school every week to help out with PE and do some football. I also volunteer once a week to coach football to any kid above P3. I believe that, certainly at primary school level it will continue to expand but I do see that longterm it will be very difficult to break the Grammar school situation, simply due to the success of the Grammar school sector.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on August 19, 2011, 09:57:02 AM
Thumbs down, I've spoken to people who attended integrated schools here in Belfast and they said that there was bullying on religious grounds happening in the school on a regular basis
When I was at school, some children were bullied for having big ears. Should we have a separate system for children with big ears?
Seriously though, bullying in schools? It can only be down to mixing with 'themmuns'.
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 08:59:43 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 07:36:50 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 18, 2011, 11:36:10 PM
How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?
How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?
In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area. This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife.
After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.
How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them? None
How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None
Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?
Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife? No.
Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.
The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.
If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?
There is no such thing as a "segregated sector" there is choice between four setups. If parents and children choose to segregate then that is their choice.
That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated. Would it also be the choice of parents and children if they chose to segregate along race lines?
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 05:49:31 PM
That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated.
Correct. Even Peter Robinson alluded to the fact that the state sector might "in theory" be open to all, in practice they have become protestant schools and need to have their ethos adjusted to become more attractive to catholics, while the catholic sector shouldn't get so much state support. I'm with Peadar on that one.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 19, 2011, 05:56:50 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 19, 2011, 04:58:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
I'm sure Take Your Points could tell you about the introduction of the likes of rugby and soccer into his school to give his students a wide as sporting outlet as possible especially for those who are simply not interested in the GAA.
While we don't have the dancing as required by BennyCake, as well as the rugby and soccer we have included boxing and last June we won u-14 inter-school tennis B competition beating some of the larger schools in Belfast. We intend to have a greater push on soccer and athletics in the coming year. Sport can be the great integrator.
We played Gaelic football at our taig school, although they never taught us hurling no matter how much I nagged them to do so. We also did soccer, basketball, athletics, table tennis, hockey, gymnastics and plenty more. My only complaint was there being too much emphasis on soccer which I hated with a passion. Still, I never felt like my racial purity was being compromised by it.
My experience of Catholic Education is it has produced a Generation of Resentful Kids who end up hating ALL Regions as a result.
This isn't exclusive to Ireland, many of those American Celebrities with an agenda against Christianity all went to Catholic Schools (or had a Catholic upbringing).
After all that has happened with the Paedophile Priests, we can't afford to mass produce Resentful Generations one after another. Life is too short to hold such grudges.
I have now decided that I'd take any kids I may have to an Integrated Secondary. Sperrin Integrated in Magherafelt has a GAA Program (with a few players receiving Vocational All-Stars).
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 08:59:43 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 07:36:50 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 18, 2011, 11:36:10 PM
How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?
How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?
In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area. This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife.
After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.
How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them? None
How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None
Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?
Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife? No.
Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.
The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.
If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?
There is no such thing as a "segregated sector" there is choice between four setups. If parents and children choose to segregate then that is their choice.
That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated. Would it also be the choice of parents and children if they chose to segregate along race lines?
Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
Even if their ethos ends up being the same as today's integrated schools?
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
I've just realised something. You say that CCMS schools are open to all, so are you saying that there's no reason why a non catholic would not want to go there?
Well the state sector is "open to all" too, so surely there's nothing stopping a non prod from going there.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2011, 07:20:36 PM
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
Even if their ethos ends up being the same as today's integrated schools?
Especially if their ethos ends up being the same as the majority today's "integrated" schools.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2011, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
I've just realised something. You say that CCMS schools are open to all, so are you saying that there's no reason why a non catholic would not want to go there?
Well the state sector is "open to all" too, so surely there's nothing stopping a non prod from going there.
I couldn't care less where a Catholic or Protestant send their children. Religious instruction should come from the home not schools. Now if you are carelessly using catholic and prod as a euphemism for Irish and British, then that's another matter. If so, I can understand why unionists may not want to send their children to CCMS, likewise I wouldn't have mine anywhere near "state" or "integrated".
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 08:59:43 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 07:36:50 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 18, 2011, 11:36:10 PM
How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?
How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?
In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area. This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife.
After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.
How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them? None
How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None
Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?
Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife? No.
Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.
The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.
If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?
There is no such thing as a "segregated sector" there is choice between four setups. If parents and children choose to segregate then that is their choice.
That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated. Would it also be the choice of parents and children if they chose to segregate along race lines?
Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
That's because you don't like Prods. Why waste your time trying to justify your position on integrated education.
I don't particularly like Catholics either so how does that figure into 'analysis' of my position "integrated education"? I'm a big supporter of integrated education though.
Integrated education is the only way to go insofar that in the not too distant future the word 'integrated' will have little value. A fairly high percentage of the present younger generations don't give a fiddlers about religion. It's only kept alive by the 12th season, certain geographical boundaries and Old Firm games. Their children will place even less emphasis on it.
There are many Catholic schools who are that only in name or supposed ethos. Scrape gently at it and you'll see it barely exists with any value.
If there is to be any normalisation of society in the North then integrated education will have to become more widespread than the 10% quoted.
A lot of people agree with it in theory but you would have to see what it would offer in terms of dealing with religion, history and culture etc. I never had any dealings with the other side until I went to the tech when I surprisingly found a lot of Protestants were actually all right.
Children share buses with each other going to primary school and have no problems. It is only when they get older that differences become an issue.
The system of National Schools was ahead of its time back in the 1830s. Each county in Ireland was to have at least one of them. Intake was multi-denominational, there was strict separation between when religious and non religious education was taking place, and a sign had to be hung up signifying when religious instruction was taking place. All religious objects had to be removed from sight when religious instruction was over. Governance was shared between Catholics, CoI and Presbyterians, two members of each denomination.
The mixed nature of it was undermined by religious interests who wanted absolute control, and they got their way eventually for shame.
[quote author=Orangemac link=topic=20069.msg1006019#msg1006019 dI surprisingly found a lot of Protestants were actually all right.
Most are like everyone ok, some people need to move on, it's a brave new world out there.
As with sport, music and art, education should be alienated from any religious influence in terms of institutional ethos.
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
Open to all in theory maybe, but that's generally where it end.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 19, 2011, 11:20:37 PM
Quote from: Ulick on August 19, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.
Open to all in theory maybe, but that's generally where it end.
So what would you propose - do you think the unionists are really up to putting Irish citizenship and identity on a par with Britishness in their wee schools? Do you propose to force an NI identity on those who choose an Irish identity and citizenship in their own country? Let's not propagate the myth here, this has f**k all to do with religion, if it did as Eammon points out there, it would all have been settled long ago.
Integrated schooling should start in primary schools, must schools in rural areas are already
How can it be afforded to have two schools in small parishes?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 19, 2011, 11:54:55 PM
How can it be afforded to have two schools in small parishes?
alot of rural parishes are predominently one religion
Partition and 'segregation' (oh golly gosh how did that happen - let's pretend we don't know why) come hand in hand.
No big deal.
Get rid of partition.
Or play wee verbal/internet thought games with each other.
Carry on as you are.
Eejits.
Quote from: customsandrevenue on August 20, 2011, 01:25:33 AM
Partition and 'segregation' (oh golly gosh how did that happen - let's pretend we don't know why) come hand in hand.
No big deal.
Get rid of partition.
Or play wee verbal/internet thought games with each other.
Carry on as you are.
Eejits.
Until you learn to string a couple of sentences together that make sense, perhaps you should refrain from calling others Eejits!
Quote from: customsandrevenue on August 20, 2011, 01:25:33 AM
Partition and 'segregation' (oh golly gosh how did that happen - let's pretend we don't know why) come hand in hand.
No big deal.
Get rid of partition.
Or play wee verbal/internet thought games with each other.
Carry on as you are.
Eejits.
Who's pretending they don't know why there's segregation?
And in what way would an end to partition solve segregated education?
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning German instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
What a shame it would be if children actually learned a subject such as German that may actually benefit them in the real world instead of getting an A star in Irish. If their not feeling "Irish" enough after going to mass on a Sunday, making Holy Communion, playing Gaelic games and doing a bit of Irish dancing once a week they could always "choose" to learn the language or how to play some trad in their spare time. How many would actually so it though?
QuoteHow many would actually so it though?
Those who were not hopelessly Anglicised but who still had some pride in their own country, perhaps.
Quote from: long grass on August 20, 2011, 06:16:19 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 18, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
A Big Thumbs Down!
Any reasons why?
Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance. There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school. Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning German instead of Irish. A big NO for me!
What a shame it would be if children actually learned a subject such as German that may actually benefit them in the real world instead of getting an A star in Irish. If their not feeling "Irish" enough after going to mass on a Sunday, making Holy Communion, playing Gaelic games and doing a bit of Irish dancing once a week they could always "choose" to learn the language or how to play some trad in their spare time. How many would actually so it though?
Er, thon's a Question. It should end with '?', not '.'
Irony is that the best proponents of the English Language in Ireland are Gaelgori. Padraig Pearse himself Graduated in English.