Although not particularly wanting Tyrone to win the AI, I still felt an element of sadness if this is the way the inter county careers of men like Dooher,Gormley, Jordan and O'Neill have ended. Men who many in Armagh would have disliked, envied and admired in different measures.
It is premature to say how many of this team will retire but undoubtedly theTyrone team as we knew them is at an end.As Martin McHugh mentioned yesterday you wouldn't want this Tyrone team to repeat the mistakes of the Kerry team in playing on for too long. 6 of the team who started yesterday started in 2003 final and 2 more came on. There may be an abundance of talent with minor AI medals coming through but talent alone will not replace the drive, determination, the decision making that this group of players had.
If anyone can build a new team Mickey Harte can. If he decided to walk away he will go down as one of the best intercounty managers of all time and this group of players the best Ulster team of all time.We can be proud that we were able to go toe to toe with them for a few years but ultimately Mickey Harte and a better half forward line meant they were that bit ahead of us.
I make a habit of never feeling sorry for players who retire with more than 2 all ireland medals.
I think there tends to be overreaction and media spun exaggeration to defeats like this for a team that has won in the past. I think its the end fo Dooher. Thought Gormley and Jordan did fine yesterday though probably not as good as in their heyday. O'Neill looked electric when he came on. Of the others Cavanagh is playing well and the new lads like Peter Harte & Mark Donnelly are lively. Though Brian McGuigan looked good esterday (why was he taken off?). Tyrone can easily contend next year. The major problem I see is the lack of pace in their defence. The two McMahon's just aren't playing as well as in other years and a lot of the rest are decent but similar. Gormley has slowed and can't handle the oppositions main man any more. So new "shutdown" options need to emerge or a new defensive system is needed.
I've maintained since Canavan retired that O'Neill was simply irreplaceable and he still is.
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 07, 2011, 11:28:20 PM
I've maintained since Canavan retired that O'Neill was simply irreplaceable and he still is.
Thank you.
Oddly, the one All-Ireland Tyrone won without Canavan - O'Neill retired!
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 07, 2011, 11:28:20 PM
I've maintained since Canavan retired that O'Neill was simply irreplaceable and he still is.
A game stands out for me: was the League in Cork against the same (about 2006), and I've never seen such a display of lethal shooting from both feet (the Gooch notwithstanding). Simply unmarkable, where we won a game we'd really no right to win save for his brilliance.
Quote from: ONeill on August 07, 2011, 11:45:02 PM
Oddly, the one All-Ireland Tyrone won without Canavan - O'Neill retired!
Aye, almost the exception that proved the rule. I do remember him setting up a goal in the final though!
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 07, 2011, 11:49:09 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 07, 2011, 11:28:20 PM
I've maintained since Canavan retired that O'Neill was simply irreplaceable and he still is.
A game stands out for me: was the League in Cork against the same (about 2006), and I've never seen such a display of lethal shooting from both feet (the Gooch notwithstanding). Simply unmarkable, where we won a game we'd really no right to win save for his brilliance.
Under floodlights in 2009 against Dublin he gave an exhibition off both feet too
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 07, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 07, 2011, 11:45:02 PM
Oddly, the one All-Ireland Tyrone won without Canavan - O'Neill retired!
Aye, almost the exception that proved the rule. I do remember him setting up a goal in the final though!
True.
Even last night he stuck over a point from the Cusack side which was sublime.
How many of the Tyrone's line up yesterday was actually over 30? lots of mileage yes but I'd say Kerry have more over 30s. Tyrone still have a few of the 08 & last years minors to come through so i'm not sure have they passed the torch yet.
I dont want to be controversial and this may be the wrong thread but is this Tyrone team really one of the true greats ever in Ireland or even in Ulster for that matter? An excellent team yes and the best Ulster team of the last 15 or 16 years but they played in an era where very good teams like they undoubtedly were, were able to look better because of the back door. Would Tyrone have won more or less All Ireland's without the back door? Something we will never know and I suppose it makes comparisons with the great Down and Cavan sides very difficult. Dont get me wrong I am not trying to knock an excellent team but for me Tyrone were the second best team of the last decade and I cant help but feel that as many fine players come to what might be the end of excellent careers, the media and this board have been overstating how good this Tyrone team truly were.
So the question really is where do Tyrone 03-11 or more 03-09 rank in the pantheon of great teams?
Great question.
My take is that every other team had the opportunities Tyrone did during the back door option but they excelled best.
Also, it could be argued that the teams who won AIs before the back door won them easily, compared to now.
Tyrone 98-11 (McGuigan at al) were one helluva bunch.
Quote from: heffo on August 07, 2011, 11:55:57 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 07, 2011, 11:49:09 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 07, 2011, 11:28:20 PM
I've maintained since Canavan retired that O'Neill was simply irreplaceable and he still is.
A game stands out for me: was the League in Cork against the same (about 2006), and I've never seen such a display of lethal shooting from both feet (the Gooch notwithstanding). Simply unmarkable, where we won a game we'd really no right to win save for his brilliance.
Under floodlights in 2009 against Dublin he gave an exhibition off both feet too
True heffo, suppose the earlier game colours the subsequent games a bit for me, but true.
Team of the decade by a running mile..........................kerry could not get within a sniff of them
Quote from: squire_in_navy_slacks on August 08, 2011, 12:14:52 AM
Team of the decade by a running mile..........................kerry could not get within a sniff of them
The dots, the dots!
The only criterion is SAMs, and Kerry beat us on that one - indisputable.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 08, 2011, 12:16:22 AM
Quote from: squire_in_navy_slacks on August 08, 2011, 12:14:52 AM
Team of the decade by a running mile..........................kerry could not get within a sniff of them
The dots, the dots!
The only criterion is SAMs, and Kerry beat us on that one - indisputable.
Not so sure, fair enough the cabinets are stacked and they have been brilliant, but tyrone always snuffed them out, its gotta hurt
Damn sure.
The biggest losers yesterday were Jack and the Gooch. They'll retire unfulfilled.
It is hard to gauge whether the back door makes winning an AI easier or not. Off the top of my head have 6 of the 11 champs since the back door came in been prov champions? I think Armagh would have won at least another AI if there had been no back door but then look at Tyrones run of games in 2005, has any team ever won a harder AI than that?
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
Although a lot of the Tyrone team are in or around 30 there is serious miles on the clock in that the core of the team have been playing at the latter stages of competition from minor through U21 to senior since 1997/1998.
Quote from: ONeill on August 08, 2011, 12:22:54 AM
Damn sure.
The biggest losers yesterday were Jack and the Gooch. They'll retire unfulfilled.
You don't believe that for one minute.
The record books will record SAMs won with no asterisks against any of them.
I know it for a fact.
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
That's an interesting one. To save me the bother of looking it up, can you list them?
Quote from: Hardy on August 08, 2011, 12:58:36 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
That's an interesting one. To save me the bother of looking it up, can you list them?
dublin
meath
kerry
tyrone
down
I'd quibble with Down (four or five of the 60/61 team played in 68 - more a remnant than a nucleus) and Meath (two of the 87/88 team played in 96 - sorry Jinxy).
OK Hardy, you're off the list! ;)
Quote from: ONeill on August 08, 2011, 12:22:54 AM
Damn sure.
The biggest losers yesterday were Jack and the Gooch. They'll retire unfulfilled.
great teams do back 2 back AI...
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 08, 2011, 01:17:51 AM
Quote from: ONeill on August 08, 2011, 12:22:54 AM
Damn sure.
The biggest losers yesterday were Jack and the Gooch. They'll retire unfulfilled.
great teams do back 2 back AI...
Back-to-backs are an absolutely immense achievement in the modern (or any) era, no doubt whatsoever about that. But I don't think that that measure alone can deny a team greatness, you may disagree! ;)
tbh, I dont think this is the time for the Kerry v Tyrone slagging. The time for that is before games, not in the immediate aftermath of defeats.
but..if ye want to go down that road......
Quote from: INDIANA on August 08, 2011, 01:02:29 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 08, 2011, 12:58:36 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
That's an interesting one. To save me the bother of looking it up, can you list them?
dublin
meath
kerry
tyrone
down
I can only take a wild guess that Galway's 3 in a row team is one of them. Not 100% on that though.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 08, 2011, 01:30:58 AM
tbh, I dont think this is the time for the Kerry v Tyrone slagging. The time for that is before games, not in the immediate aftermath of defeats.
but..if ye want to go down that road......
Wind it in FFS! And don't be sore that we've deprived you once again of ending your 25 year hoodoo against us! :D
I believe that Tyrone have lost a few years rebuilding due to too much loyalty to some of the old guard. I hate being harsh on players- especially the ones that delivered 3 x All Irelands- but I thought that more of them should've stepped aside over the last few seasons.
In fairness the 'but' will be who could've replaced them. Which would be a fair retort, but we would've seen more game time for people like Carlin, Cassidy, Colm Cavanagh pre this season, Mulgrew etc.
There are others who I felt could've been afforded an opportunity at some point e.g. Martin Murray.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 08, 2011, 01:53:47 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 08, 2011, 01:30:58 AM
tbh, I dont think this is the time for the Kerry v Tyrone slagging. The time for that is before games, not in the immediate aftermath of defeats.
but..if ye want to go down that road......
Wind it in FFS! And don't be sore that we've deprived you once again of ending your 25 year hoodoo against us! :D
decent teams do back 2 back semi-finals
Quote from: Norf Tyrone on August 08, 2011, 02:05:50 AM
I believe that Tyrone have lost a few years rebuilding due to too much loyalty to some of the old guard. I hate being harsh on players- especially the ones that delivered 3 x All Irelands- but I thought that more of them should've stepped aside over the last few seasons.
In fairness the 'but' will be who could've replaced them. Which would be a fair retort, but we would've seen more game time for people like Carlin, Cassidy, Colm Cavanagh pre this season, Mulgrew etc.
There are others who I felt could've been afforded an opportunity at some point e.g. Martin Murray.
Dublin could and prob should have beaten tyrone by about 15 points but I'm glad they didnt. Great players like Stepehn O'Neill, Jordan, Gormley and Dooher deserved to bow out in a big game at Croker in which they gave a respectable performance. They did ulster proud for the last decade.
Quote from: lenny on August 08, 2011, 09:10:33 AM
Quote from: Norf Tyrone on August 08, 2011, 02:05:50 AM
I believe that Tyrone have lost a few years rebuilding due to too much loyalty to some of the old guard. I hate being harsh on players- especially the ones that delivered 3 x All Irelands- but I thought that more of them should've stepped aside over the last few seasons.
In fairness the 'but' will be who could've replaced them. Which would be a fair retort, but we would've seen more game time for people like Carlin, Cassidy, Colm Cavanagh pre this season, Mulgrew etc.
There are others who I felt could've been afforded an opportunity at some point e.g. Martin Murray.
Dublin could and prob should have beaten tyrone by about 15 points but I'm glad they didnt. Great players like Stepehn O'Neill, Jordan, Gormley and Dooher deserved to bow out in a big game at Croker in which they gave a respectable performance. They did ulster proud for the last decade.
+1
Is this the end? Not a chance. Tyrone have structures for under age and school's football that are second no no other county. The conveyor will continue to supply quality and Tyrone will continue to be involved in the latter stages of the championship.
We need to have a serious look at what we are doing guys, and the type of footballers we are cultivating through these structures before we keep on spoofing about them. The structures dont allow for late developers and that class of footballer who missed out on the system is out on the cold with Tyrone football often on the call of a minor manager
Quote from: snippets on August 08, 2011, 10:41:57 AM
We need to have a serious look at what we are doing guys, and the type of footballers we are cultivating through these structures before we keep on spoofing about them. The structures dont allow for late developers and that class of footballer who missed out on the system is out on the cold with Tyrone football often on the call of a minor manager
Did Mark Donnelly play much at minor level as I can't really remember him up until this season but you are right. by and large the players who played minor and U21 get the nod ahead of others who improved as they got older.
Was fitness an issue this year?
I would think reports of Tyrone's death are somewhat exaggerated.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2011, 10:36:07 AM
Is this the end? Not a chance. Tyrone have structures for under age and school's football that are second no no other county. The conveyor will continue to supply quality and Tyrone will continue to be involved in the latter stages of the championship.
its not as easy as this just ask galway in hurling, a good underage set-up doesnt equate to all-irelands
Quote from: Norf Tyrone on August 08, 2011, 02:05:50 AM
I believe that Tyrone have lost a few years rebuilding due to too much loyalty to some of the old guard. I hate being harsh on players- especially the ones that delivered 3 x All Irelands- but I thought that more of them should've stepped aside over the last few seasons.
Looked gone in 2009 closing stages .. e.g Kildare should have beaten them but for terrible shooting in the closing stages, while cork beat them handy enough.
Still they had won an AI only 10 months beforehand so it was hard to expect MH to start rebuilding then.
He now seems to have fallen into the understandable trap that Merc O Dwyer fell into in the mid/late 80s when he kept on his old warriors too long.
You'd wonder if M H is the man to re build or is a whole fresh set up needed in Tyrone.
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 07, 2011, 11:28:20 PM
I think there tends to be overreaction and media spun exaggeration to defeats like this for a team that has won in the past. I think its the end fo Dooher. Thought Gormley and Jordan did fine yesterday though probably not as good as in their heyday. O'Neill looked electric when he came on. Of the others Cavanagh is playing well and the new lads like Peter Harte & Mark Donnelly are lively. Though Brian McGuigan looked good esterday (why was he taken off?). Tyrone can easily contend next year. The major problem I see is the lack of pace in their defence. The two McMahon's just aren't playing as well as in other years and a lot of the rest are decent but similar. Gormley has slowed and can't handle the oppositions main man any more. So new "shutdown" options need to emerge or a new defensive system is needed.
I've maintained since Canavan retired that O'Neill was simply irreplaceable and he still is.
As I posted in the other thread I would agree with all of this apart from the bit about Brian McGuigan. I thought Brennan did an excellent job on him and anytime McGuigan got on the ball there was no one available for the pass. I'd expect to see them all reporting for duty next year apart from Dooher and Jordan.
To agree with the posts above, I have seen great lads and footballers who by the call of the county minor manager of the time has missed out on minor selection and any hope of an intercounty career is over. So no matter what size of development squad or indeed how much work we put into lads at an early age - it still comes down to the call of the Tyrone minor manager. If he makes a tight call and not on your side, your chances of a future senior intercounty career is almost zero, and you are only 18. On another note do lads playing for under 21s really believe that they are going to play for Tyrone seniors. The glass ceiling is testament to the success of the senior players, but If I was Tyrone manager this year and thinking to the future Id have been allowing Coney, Mc Kenna, Mc Caul, Mc Nabb and others every chance to establish themselves and would have had had Hughes, Mc Ginley, and Dooher behind them. Unfortunately the cut must run deeper now and like it or not it will be 2014 at the earliest before we can have a team experienced and young enough to win something major. Lets not leave lads on benches going stale like 2 great prospects Raymie Mulgrew and Peter Donnelly.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 08, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on August 08, 2011, 01:02:29 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 08, 2011, 12:58:36 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
That's an interesting one. To save me the bother of looking it up, can you list them?
dublin
meath
kerry
tyrone
down
I can only take a wild guess that Galway's 3 in a row team is one of them. Not 100% on that though.
Galway would be one of them but you couldn't really include Meath as how many from 1988 were there in 1996? 2 or 3?
There was a fair gap between 1961 and 1968 with Down but a fair few of them were still around I think.
On the subject of back to backs did Offaly not win 2 in a row around 1971/1972? Of all teams of the last 50 years they receive no mention at all even the 1982 Offaly team are more heralded nationally , more to the circumstances of their win I suppose.
Quote from: tyronebhoy on August 08, 2011, 11:01:30 AM
Quote from: snippets on August 08, 2011, 10:41:57 AM
We need to have a serious look at what we are doing guys, and the type of footballers we are cultivating through these structures before we keep on spoofing about them. The structures dont allow for late developers and that class of footballer who missed out on the system is out on the cold with Tyrone football often on the call of a minor manager
Did Mark Donnelly play much at minor level as I can't really remember him up until this season but you are right. by and large the players who played minor and U21 get the nod ahead of others who improved as they got older.
Mark Donnelly never played minors but he did play under 21's. Only for sheer determination and attitude he would have been missed like a few others who threw in the county bucket after not making minors.
Correct me if i'm wrong but i think i heard Ricey never played minors or U-21's and bust onto the scene soon after.
Yip but that was before 2003
Didn't they say the same about Swift in commentary - that he didn't play underage for Tyrone?
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 08, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on August 08, 2011, 01:02:29 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 08, 2011, 12:58:36 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
That's an interesting one. To save me the bother of looking it up, can you list them?
dublin
meath
kerry
tyrone
down
I can only take a wild guess that Galway's 3 in a row team is one of them. Not 100% on that though.
Galway would be one of them but you couldn't really include Meath as how many from 1988 were there in 1996? 2 or 3?
There was a fair gap between 1961 and 1968 with Down but a fair few of them were still around I think.
On the subject of back to backs did Offaly not win 2 in a row around 1971/1972? Of all teams of the last 50 years they receive no mention at all even the 1982 Offaly team are more heralded nationally , more to the circumstances of their win I suppose.
Correct - 71 and 72 and lost the semi final in 1973
Correct, neither Swift nor Ricey played minor or u21 for the county. Mark Donnelly didn't make the minors in 2000 but was a panelist on the team that got to the u21 final in 03. Conor Gormley didn't make the minor panel in 1998 and Phillip Jordan was a sub that got very little football on the 98 AI winning team however both played in the 2001 under 21 winning side.
It's slightly understandable if not ideal that those players who won minor and U21 All-Irelands get first pick at Senior level due to them being around the squads for long periods and having proved at underage that they are good footballers.
Perhaps if Tyrone's minors and U21s weren't as successful, others who didn't get a look in at underage might have had a better chance of making the senior panel.
A good point. Without Mickey at minor level and under 21 level less has come through. There are people here calling for Hartes head - incredible. I would actually make him a director of football overseeing management through under 16 to senior level within Tyrone ensuring our players know why they are in these squads, and how they can progress to senior.
Quote from: snippets on August 08, 2011, 01:51:22 PM
A good point. Without Mickey at minor level and under 21 level less has come through. There are people here calling for Hartes head - incredible. I would actually make him a director of football overseeing management through under 16 to senior level within Tyrone ensuring our players know why they are in these squads, and how they can progress to senior.
I would say when Mickey does give up the senior team management, there will be a job for him at Garvaghey overseeing some sort of youth development. That is if he wants it.
Quote from: turk on August 08, 2011, 12:59:22 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 08, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on August 08, 2011, 01:02:29 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 08, 2011, 12:58:36 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
That's an interesting one. To save me the bother of looking it up, can you list them?
dublin
meath
kerry
tyrone
down
I can only take a wild guess that Galway's 3 in a row team is one of them. Not 100% on that though.
Galway would be one of them but you couldn't really include Meath as how many from 1988 were there in 1996? 2 or 3?
There was a fair gap between 1961 and 1968 with Down but a fair few of them were still around I think.
On the subject of back to backs did Offaly not win 2 in a row around 1971/1972? Of all teams of the last 50 years they receive no mention at all even the 1982 Offaly team are more heralded nationally , more to the circumstances of their win I suppose.
Correct - 71 and 72 and lost the semi final in 1973
And Seanie Lowry and Seamus Darby bridged the gap to 1982 as well.
Harte to give it another year
08 August 2011
Mickey Harte has said that he intends to stay on as Tyrone manager next season.
Speculation has mounted that the three-time All-Ireland winning boss could step down after his side's quarter-final defeat to Dublin at the weekend, but he has confirmed that he wants to stay in charge of the Red Hands for a 10th season in 2012.
"I'm there until next year anyway," Harte stated. "There's no contract or anything else, but I agreed to go on for another year, not this year, but a few years ago.
"I don't see any reason why that would change."
However, Harte does admit that he expects to be minus the services of a few of his veterans next year but does not believe that there will be wholesale changes from the team which started against the Dubs last Saturday night.
"There's always change in every squad every year," he said. "I think people are thinking a wee bit narrowly to say this is a team that's going to disappear all in one go.
"That's not the case. There are players that will be near the end of their careers and they'll make the decision that's right for them. But there'll be no wholesale turnover as you look through the team that started, there's not that many elder statesmen. Leave everybody to make their own decisions in their own time.
"But it is inevitable that people who have been playing at the top level for 10, 11 or 12 years, they may have to consider what they're doing. This is not the time to do that and I would certainly respect them enough to make their own minds up on things like that."
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=153050
Delighted to hear that.
In my opinion this absolutely is the end of the road for this great Tyrone side. In my opinion this is absolutely not the end of the road for Tyrone as a powerful football county.
Dooher, Mulligan, O'Neill, Hughes and possibly Gormley are now no longer able to be relied on at the highest level. They are however more than capable of contributing to teams that are built around other players and shouldn't be written off just yet. But although I think too much is made of under-age success in the county, Tyrone have a current sustained production of young talent. This year alone Harry Og produced superb displays for St pats.
The first primary task in front of Tyrone is to get out of Division 2. In doing so they need to also start with several young players and allow them to play virtually every game. I don't agree it will help their cause to bring in players sporadically and for varying cameo performances. That just tells the players that they are only considered as back up to the established players. I think they need to start at least 4-5 new players, start them in every game, and make it clear that they are the players that now must take responsibility. Okay the established players could be brought on to help out and close out games, but the responsibility must now be given to and taken by the younger players.
From what I see, a cohesive organised team is more important than individual talent. If Tyrone put together a team of their young talent and can get then used to playing with each other week in week out, then a couple of championship victories would allow them the confidence to challenge at the top level. Gaelic is not like soccer, confidence and belief is so much more important. In any year a team as fit and organised as Tyrone could always threaten.
Look at Donegal who have this season suddenly found confidence, belief in the system, and a settled formation. The result is that they have gone from average to potential contenders.
Quote from: INDIANA on August 08, 2011, 01:02:29 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 08, 2011, 12:58:36 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 08, 2011, 12:25:33 AM
In the last 50 years only 5 teams have won 3 AIs with the same nucleus of a team so for that alone Tyrone should be remembered.
That's an interesting one. To save me the bother of looking it up, can you list them?
dublin
meath
kerry
tyrone
down
Kerry '62'69'70
Kerry '75'78'79'80'81
Kerry '84'85'86
Kerry '97'00'04
Kerry '06'07'09
Quote from: PAULD123 on August 08, 2011, 03:34:25 PM
In my opinion this absolutely is the end of the road for this great Tyrone side. In my opinion this is absolutely not the end of the road for Tyrone as a powerful football county.
Dooher, Mulligan, O'Neill, Hughes and possibly Gormley are now no longer able to be relied on at the highest level. They are however more than capable of contributing to teams that are built around other players and shouldn't be written off just yet. But although I think too much is made of under-age success in the county, Tyrone have a current sustained production of young talent. This year alone Harry Og produced superb displays for St pats.
The first primary task in front of Tyrone is to get out of Division 2. In doing so they need to also start with several young players and allow them to play virtually every game. I don't agree it will help their cause to bring in players sporadically and for varying cameo performances. That just tells the players that they are only considered as back up to the established players. I think they need to start at least 4-5 new players, start them in every game, and make it clear that they are the players that now must take responsibility. Okay the established players could be brought on to help out and close out games, but the responsibility must now be given to and taken by the younger players.
From what I see, a cohesive organised team is more important than individual talent. If Tyrone put together a team of their young talent and can get then used to playing with each other week in week out, then a couple of championship victories would allow them the confidence to challenge at the top level. Gaelic is not like soccer, confidence and belief is so much more important. In any year a team as fit and organised as Tyrone could always threaten.
Look at Donegal who have this season suddenly found confidence, belief in the system, and a settled formation. The result is that they have gone from average to potential contenders.
Regarding your Donegal example, I agree entirely. People are deluded if they think it will take Tyrone a long time to challenge again. Look at Dublin, it was only 2009 that they were tanked by Kerry and look how they have turned it around by freshening things up. Thats what needs to happen in Tyrone. Tyrone have as good as if not better talent in the county as both Donegal and Dublin. Whether its time for Mickey Harte to really go to town and hold trials to identify players that might not previously have been on the radar for whatever reason (late bloomer, not on any Minor/Schools teams before, from unfashionable area). It might even be a case that Tyrone need to start increasing the frequency of their training sessions, or go twice a day for a period of time. In recent years Tyrone have placed less focus on the League and also on seriously hard fitness training as it was becoming harder to maintain the freshness in the legs of players who had been doing this for years. But look back at the 2003 team and the fitness levels and intensity the players had then. Its only natural that a player cannot keep at that level for 10 years. Is it any coincidence that Tyrone started to become successful off the back of the League success, qhere a lot of young players were thrown into League football together and over a couple of years the team was allowed to develop.
I think you may be deluded if you think it's an easy thing to achieve (restructuring, rebuilding and competing for AI's - not for Leagues or Ulsters). Mickey Harte has achieved something incredible with Tyrone, that doesn't necessarily make him the best man to take on the new challenge that lies ahead. As much respect as I have for the man I get the feeling that a new man would be a better option for the job that lies ahead.
Tyrone have been in finals in the last three decades, so they have rebuilt before.
It is not the end but rather, it has to be a fresh beginning. The bar has been raised since as recent as 2008 and truth be told, we have fallen short in 2009 against Cork and in 2010 and 2011 against Dublin. Kildare 2009 was the moment when the writing was on the wall. We see now with Dublin, Donegal, Cork and Kildare the level of physicality, tactics, systems, gameplans, fitness, strength and conditioning required. Are we forerunners in any of these fields any more? Probably/definitely not.
What do we need to do? I certainly think some serious thought needs to be given to the fitness/conditioning aspect. Does it need freshening up? All the best coaches/physical trainers are Tyrone men and they are serving other counties. It would be difficult to impose Dublin's/Donegal's physical training regime on established players/veterans, but certainly the younger players now know what level of devotion is required. Are Kyle Coney, Niall McKenna and Peter Harte better players than Mark McHugh? Yes. Are they in a position where they can go straight in and survive in Croke Park in an All Ireland Quarter Final like Mark McHugh? If not, then why not?
In terms of the changing of the guard, there will be some changes and probably this is needed. Gormley and Jordan need to remain. Gormley most likely will but the worry is that Jordan won't. Both carried the fight to Dublin throughout. I thought if anything, Jordan looked too fired up for it at the start of the game. Jordan should be offered the captaincy and told to report back in April next year. Gormley looked revitalised this year and back to his 2007 form. We should now look at developing one or two specialist man markers in an attempt to rid Gormley of the burden of having to plug holes and mark dangermen, a role which is probably not his forte anymore. We have a nucleus of defenders like PJ Quinn, McCaul, McCarron, Carlin and Swift. Each of these need to be tried and hopefully we can establish two corner backs. Carlin proved in the second half that he merited more game time. His only weakness is his tendency to carry the ball into the tackle.
Cassiy and McKenna now need to be given their head at midfield, along with Colm Cavanagh. Hub was shown up to lack the mobility to cover ground. Bastick and MD MacCauley are manufactured footballers but that is the way the game has now gone. Sean's best football is now to be played in the forward line. With the tactic of subtlely fouling a dangerman, teams can simply foul him around centre field and then rotate the fouler.
the forward line requires the most work. Mattie Donnelly, Coney and Ronan O'Neill need to be given their head now. Mark Donnelly has been a bonus and a bright spark. Peter Harte will only continue to develop. Tyrone are still potentially a top 8 side with some tweaking and development but the big challeneg is to make that next step again
think its time for change on sideline,no harm to mickey he's been a great servant to the o'neill county but he s set in his ways
bringing on mc ginley was enough for me i was just waiting on him bringing on davy as well
its a young mans game with plenty on the bench mckenna,coney,mcnabb to name but a few
Is it time for someone outside the county?
Quote from: twenty one yard free on August 09, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
think its time for change on sideline,no harm to mickey he's been a great servant to the o'neill county but he s set in his ways
bringing on mc ginley was enough for me i was just waiting on him bringing on davy as well
its a young mans game with plenty on the bench mckenna,coney,mcnabb to name but a few
Is it time for someone outside the county?
No
Quote from: twenty one yard free on August 09, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
think its time for change on sideline,no harm to mickey he's been a great servant to the o'neill county but he s set in his ways
bringing on mc ginley was enough for me i was just waiting on him bringing on davy as well
its a young mans game with plenty on the bench mckenna,coney,mcnabb to name but a few
Is it time for someone outside the county?
Paddy O Rourke
Quote from: twenty one yard free on August 09, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
think its time for change on sideline,no harm to mickey he's been a great servant to the o'neill county but he s set in his ways
bringing on mc ginley was enough for me i was just waiting on him bringing on davy as well
its a young mans game with plenty on the bench mckenna,coney,mcnabb to name but a few
Is it time for someone outside the county?
Mickey has stated that he is staying on. He deserves the chance now to rebuild. A number of the older players will retire now and Mickey will have to start using the new younger players on a regular basis. There is no better man inside or indeed outside the county to bring in a new and sucessfull team. I would love to see him commit for 4-5 years.
I thought McGinley was class when he came in.
As was Stephen O'Neill
I'm going to make a bold statement. Tyrone could very well win next years all-Ireland. Yes, they might get beat but it wouldn't be by the same manner of defeat as happened in the Dublin game. You have to remember that Dublin themselves suffered heavy defeats to Kerry and Tyrone in the recent past, yet didn't fade away and die. They came back regrouped reorganized and are now only seventy minutes from contesting an all-Ireland. Fair play to them they have showed a lot of character.
IF Tyrone want to give themselves every chance posable there is no time like the present. The first approach would be to call a special meeting with all the players on the panel and the County board. A structured plan should be drawn up and put in place for the new season. What I would like to see is the work load at the top being divided out more. Older players on the panel have a huge roll still to play and could be assigned to go scouting through the various divisions to look for "hidden" talent. Every club should be emailed to see for example if they want to suggest some of their own members to go to trials. Something like the underdogs. So no one can say they weren't given a chance.
The league this year should be taken very seriously. Its imperative Tyrone get back into division one. To win division two with several new players would establish a renewed confidance and would be a great plat form to start the championship campaign. A lot of Counties look upon Tyrone with envy. To win five minor all-Irelands in eleven years in todays game shows great commitment. However the work must commence right now at senior level. Roll the sleves up and get the show on the road, it could be a tough hard slog but the reward is more than worth it.
Quote from: Íseal agus crua isteach a on August 09, 2011, 05:59:43 PM
I'm going to make a bold statement. Tyrone could very well win next years all-Ireland. Yes, they might get beat but it wouldn't be by the same manner of defeat as happened in the Dublin game. You have to remember that Dublin themselves suffered heavy defeats to Kerry and Tyrone in the recent past, yet didn't fade away and die. They came back regrouped reorganized and are now only seventy minutes from contesting an all-Ireland.
A lot of Counties look upon Tyrone with envy. To win five minor all-Irelands in eleven years in todays game shows great commitment.
On paper minor success promises senior glory down the line. There is a lot of hope in Armagh for the minors from the last 3 years.
However this is no guarantee of success Galway, Down and Laois have had successful underage teams without bearing the expected fruit. Kerry haven't won a minor AI since 1994 and it hasn't done them any harm.
U21 although an afterthought to the GAA authorities the way it is squeezed into the calender, should be a better gauge and Tyrone haven't really delivered at U21 in the last 3 years or so.
Very interesting article by Darragh O Se in today's Irish Times. He sees life in the old dogs yet!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0810/1224302182064.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0810/1224302182064.html)
Good article!!!
I'd be wary of throwing MH out.
For all the conveyor belt of talent that the red arses had from the 80's onwards in underage they couldnt put the pieces together when it came to senior level until MH arrived.
The very good 'Ball' (Paddy was it - dont think it was Sean) was expected to bring them to AI glory, but he just coudlnt get that last 10%.
Harte has.
MH needs to change himself up a gear or two also. He and his tactics etc need to evolve a wee bit if he is to remain a success.
I think he can do that.
Then again I am a huge MH fan.
Quote from: Orangemac on August 07, 2011, 10:55:21 PM
Tyrone - Is this the end?
It's not the end, it's not even the beginning of the end, but it is perhaps, the end of the beginning.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 10, 2011, 02:03:27 PM
I'd be wary of throwing MH out.
For all the conveyor belt of talent that the red arses had from the 80's onwards in underage they couldnt put the pieces together when it came to senior level until MH arrived.
The very good 'Ball' (Paddy was it - dont think it was Sean) was expected to bring them to AI glory, but he just coudlnt get that last 10%.
Harte has.
MH needs to change himself up a gear or two also. He and his tactics etc need to evolve a wee bit if he is to remain a success.
I think he can do that.
Then again I am a huge MH fan.
Danny. Spot on with what you are saying.
Mickey Harte should stay as long as he fecking well pleases, he is a tremendous Manager, the best in the Country who just happens to have had a game as bad as big Joe did in pulling Geezer off in the AISF.
Even the great one's have a bad day at the office but I cant believe people think it might be time for him to go. Tyrone have tremendous talent coming through the ranks and they will be back for another crack at Sam before to long.
Quote from: To whom it may concern on August 09, 2011, 10:43:26 AM
It is not the end but rather, it has to be a fresh beginning. The bar has been raised since as recent as 2008 and truth be told, we have fallen short in 2009 against Cork and in 2010 and 2011 against Dublin. Kildare 2009 was the moment when the writing was on the wall. We see now with Dublin, Donegal, Cork and Kildare the level of physicality, tactics, systems, gameplans, fitness, strength and conditioning required. Are we forerunners in any of these fields any more? Probably/definitely not.
What do we need to do? I certainly think some serious thought needs to be given to the fitness/conditioning aspect. Does it need freshening up? All the best coaches/physical trainers are Tyrone men and they are serving other counties. It would be difficult to impose Dublin's/Donegal's physical training regime on established players/veterans, but certainly the younger players now know what level of devotion is required. Are Kyle Coney, Niall McKenna and Peter Harte better players than Mark McHugh? Yes. Are they in a position where they can go straight in and survive in Croke Park in an All Ireland Quarter Final like Mark McHugh? If not, then why not?
In terms of the changing of the guard, there will be some changes and probably this is needed. Gormley and Jordan need to remain. Gormley most likely will but the worry is that Jordan won't. Both carried the fight to Dublin throughout. I thought if anything, Jordan looked too fired up for it at the start of the game. Jordan should be offered the captaincy and told to report back in April next year. Gormley looked revitalised this year and back to his 2007 form. We should now look at developing one or two specialist man markers in an attempt to rid Gormley of the burden of having to plug holes and mark dangermen, a role which is probably not his forte anymore. We have a nucleus of defenders like PJ Quinn, McCaul, McCarron, Carlin and Swift. Each of these need to be tried and hopefully we can establish two corner backs. Carlin proved in the second half that he merited more game time. His only weakness is his tendency to carry the ball into the tackle.
Cassiy and McKenna now need to be given their head at midfield, along with Colm Cavanagh. Hub was shown up to lack the mobility to cover ground. Bastick and MD MacCauley are manufactured footballers but that is the way the game has now gone. Sean's best football is now to be played in the forward line. With the tactic of subtlely fouling a dangerman, teams can simply foul him around centre field and then rotate the fouler.
the forward line requires the most work. Mattie Donnelly, Coney and Ronan O'Neill need to be given their head now. Mark Donnelly has been a bonus and a bright spark. Peter Harte will only continue to develop. Tyrone are still potentially a top 8 side with some tweaking and development but the big challeneg is to make that next step again
Good bloody post, yes we have players, but they haven't been given enough game time to get used to playing at this level. We will be there abouts next year. To many good footballers in this county not to be strong.
Excellent piece in the Sunday Times today - a discussion between Jordan, Ricey, McGinley, O'Neill, McConnell and Canavan in the aftermath of the Dublin game. Well worth the purchase. O'Neill's raring to go next year.
Anyone able to post this article? Thanks a lot!
yey id love to get a look at this zrticle if possible too
As a gesture of goodwill towards the Tyrone savages on this board
Sunday Times 14/8/2011
End of an era
(http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/multimedia/dynamic/00195/end-of-an-era-page-_195788k.jpg)
They sat in the dressing room last Saturday night unstrapping bandages and unlacing their boots, red-eyed and broken. Some of the players looked around at others sitting nearby. They had grown up together since they were kids. They had carried the coffins of friends and teammates, and brought Cups to their graves. They had shared these dressing rooms with trophies and sorrow before, but this felt different.
Tyrone had trailed Dublin by five points at half time. They promised each other better in the second half, but lost by two more. No matter how hard Tyrone tried, Dublin made them look tired.
The younger players sat among their heroes. Had they measured up? The night told each of them something different but left them all with the same fear. Maybe Tyrone weren't Tyrone anymore. They all knew the questions that would come. None of them knew the answers yet. Mickey Harte left to face the media, looking as worn and grey as anyone could remember.
Then, they were left to their own thoughts.
Enda McGinley: It was very emotional. The sense was the core of this group won't be together again. We had played together for most of our lives, which added a greater rawness to everything. Plus the fact our once-strong team was so off the pace on a big day was tough to take. It was one of the most emotional dressing rooms I've ever been in.
Ryan McMenamin: After the game it felt devastating. I was just sitting there wondering what went wrong. We had expected a tight game, but we hadn't expected to be chasing the game.
Philip Jordan: We lost to Dublin this time last year with lots of regrets. This time we never got a foothold in the game. Not even for five or 10 minutes. That was the first time we've ever been in that position.
E McG: Last year it was very hard to watch Dublin go on when we felt we'd had the measure of them. We felt we owed Cork a certain amount too. It felt like an All-Ireland had gotten away. That hurt quite a bit. This year there was none of that. We were well beaten and have to realise how off the pace we were and take stock.
PJ: We had an extra reason to win the All-Ireland. It never needed to be said. We'd love to have given him the opportunity to dedicate an All-Ireland to Michaela.
E McG: It was left unspoken all year, but you don't forget something like that either. The senior boys were very aware of Mickey and what they're going through.
Stephen O'Neill: It would've been nice but things don't work out like that. But we've been in this position before. We just have to bounce back.
R McM: As Mickey himself said on Saturday night, it wasn't in God's plan. We'd set out before on campaigns wanting to win things for those reasons, but we didn't. He thanked us, said he knew what we were trying to do.
E McG: Leaving the hotel I definitely felt we're going to do the business. Training was good. The team felt fresh. The meetings had been good. The warm-up was very sharp. It felt like any time before when we'd achieved big things.
R McM: We felt we'd left the game behind against Donegal (in the Ulster championship). When we went a man down, I felt Donegal were more worried. They already had a sweeper and put the spare man back as well. There was only one team going to go and win that game, but we got caught with a sucker punch. Donegal took a lot of strength from beating us.
Pascal McConnell: There was plenty of confidence there in the older guys. The younger lads could feel that. We weren't singing from the rooftops but we felt we were getting a run together.
PJ: Dublin were quiet. It was a role-reversal from 2008. Dublin came in with nobody talking about them. In 2008 our performances weren't as good as this time. You could see the progress we were making. Now we had to beat Dublin.
R McM: Maybe that was our downfall. We thought history would repeat itself. For Dublin, it wasn't going to be like 2008.
E McG: We wanted to go at their defence at speed, but their power and their discipline made it very hard to get through. Then, two or three of their forwards hit top form.
P McC: We felt we could cut through their middle and exploit the space in Croke Park. Maybe we were too narrow in our play. We ran into too many tackles. Next thing, we were getting swarmed.
R McM: During the qualifiers a few new boys came in and there was a good push on at training, but a few worrying signs against Roscommon went unheeded. We let them down the middle too much. We left them in the game too long and probably needed longer than a week to sort it out.
SO'N: We weren't wild impressive against Roscommon. We knew we were a bit off the finished article. It proved that way [against Dublin].
PJ: We didn't play with a sweeper because we wanted to push Dublin back. When they broke, me and Conor [Gormley] were to tuck in and get back in front of our full-back line, but their half-back line was winning out, and we just couldn't get back.
R McM: Their half-backs seemed happy to let our half-forwards have the ball. They just dropped back straightaway. Then their half-forwards were dropping into midfield and we were getting turned over too quick. That left a lot of space for the two Brogan boys and Diarmuid Connolly. The ball going in was quality ball, too. Nobody could defend against it.
E McG: We were labelled with the blanket defence before, but it was more that wherever the ball was, we attacked it with men. That famous moment against Kerry in 2003 happened on their 45m line. Now teams are immediately falling back and allowing the opposition to come onto them.
PJ: We just couldn't get our hands on possession. Stephen Cluxton is incredible. He can hit a ball 60 yards with a three-yard run-up. We knew where he liked to put the ball, but we couldn't get near it. Some of the passes they hit were exceptional. Maybe that was from a lack of pressure out the field.
P McC: It boils down to work rate. Tyrone in the past wouldn't have allowed Dublin that space or allowed Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard and Alan Brogan the room to thrive. The games against Dublin in 2005 and 2008 back that up. We have to collectively take the blame for not performing.
PJ: At half-time there was some choice words said to show some pride in ourselves. Then we conceded 0-3 very quickly and that completely knocked the stuffing out of us.
SO'N: We were hoping it'd pick up in the second half but they got the start we wanted, which made it a massive task.
P McC: I remember looking at a picture of us from 2008 swarming around a Dublin player. A picture from last Saturday night was the reverse of that — four or five Dublin lads around a Tyrone player. That was what we wanted to do.
Peter Canavan: As I was commentating, I felt if Tyrone got a spell they could get on a roll, but it was the first game Dublin didn't allow that happen. Tyrone never got a hint of dominance. I'd attribute that more to a maturing Dublin team.
R McM: Everything was going right for them. They were kicking points they'll never kick again. Their gameplan was executed to perfection. Ours didn't work out as well.
PJ: At least we didn't give up. If we had, it could've been 13 or 14 points of a beating.
P McC: We can't take anything away from Dublin. They were awesome.
PC: The quality of their football was as high as I've ever seen from Dublin.
E McG: We felt the intensity was there but we were outmatched by Dublin's. That makes losing harder, and forces the hard questions. If it's true the older boys aren't up to it, we should just clear off. But it's usually not that black and white. It's easy to go for the big clear-out, but we'll take time and make our decisions.
SO'N: I'm happy to go back if selected. I'll be looking forward to it. I'm sure other boys need time to sum things up, but I'm ready. It didn't really show against Dublin but there's still a lot of football in some of these boys. The fitness is as good as it's ever been. We were just a wee bit flat on the night.
PJ: When I made the call to walk away, you realise how much you want to be there. This was also a special year for Tyrone. If you're not there you feel you're missing out on something.
PC: People weren't crying or complaining about Tyrone being over the hill when they beat Longford or Armagh. If Conor Gormley was playing for Dublin, no one would say he should go.
If Enda McGinley was with Kerry, no one would say he's gone. There's a crop together since they were minors, but it doesn't mean they're an old team. Only two or three are over 31. There's a lot of football left in the rest.
E McG: We can't avoid the feeling there's work to be done. The game has moved on. The bar was raised. We were doing that before. Now it's other teams. The players are still there. Maybe it'll take a slightly different approach. It's one of Mickey's mottos: embrace the challenge. I'm sure he is already.
SO'N: I'd say we're still with the top five or six teams. Any of them can beat each other on a given day. The players are there. They just need the confidence and belief that they're good enough.
R McM: We have to try and get the consistency into Tyrone again. Before we'd usually win maybe five out of seven games in the league. This year we won three. We need to get out of Division Two and get back that winning mentality.
PJ: Its very premature to write guys off, not because of their age but because they're there so long. You have to look for better players, and we don't want to hold younger players back. The question for them is: can they step up to the mark?
People say Tyrone won't be back for a while. I'd disagree. We've set the standard that reaching an All-Ireland quarter-final isn't good enough. Ten years ago, people would've been reasonably happy with that. That shows how things have changed.
PC: It's no different to when I was that age. We had taken a few heavy defeats and you were wondering where the change might come? It came through the energy and enthusiasm of the younger players brought in. It's up to them to take the initiative and push hard.
E McG: We started playing together when we were 16. A lot of things change personally between 16 and 30, but these boys have been the steady presence. If that's the end, it's crap, but it has to come. There are bigger things, and bigger tragedies, in life.
Time to bring in the new crop of talented players.
Snout, Dooher, Jordan and Gormley no longer have the legs to withstand Inter-County Football. Stevie O'Neil is kinda in the same situation Michael Owen is at Man Utd; greatest scorer of his Generation but frigged due in injuries; whilst Joe McMahon has bitten off more than he could chew with his Markers (last Year against Ardboe he used 'School Bully' tactics on 16 Year-Old Conan Campbell).
Perhaps Mickey Harte would need to find another Sweeper in the mould of Horse. Dublin and Donegal are now adopting the Sweeper and 'Blanket Defence' and are reaping the rewards. Lacey proved too much for Snout. I would say; being biased towards Ardboe; Gavin Teague, but I think he needs to build himself up big time (it CAN be done, if he works at it).
Kyle could do well at Tyrone, but he needs to show more consistency. Ditto Peter Harte.
Keith Duggan had a fabulous piece about Donegal the day of the Kildare match.
Armagh and Tyrone controlled Ulster for long enough. Hard to believe this year was the first Ulster title for Donegal since 1992.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0730/1224301619976.html
Brendan Devenney gave one of his best Donegal performances that evening, enjoying a riveting duel with Kildare corner back Brian Lacey. "Know why that was?" Devenney said wryly this week. "It's because it was the first round of the qualifiers and not an Ulster match in bloody Clones. That was a beautiful evening in Kildare and I was burning up grass and both teams were playing man-for-man open football.
"That was all I ever wanted but playing in Ulster against Armagh and Tyrone, you never got one-on-one. Ever. That was the main problem for us: we ran into the Armagh machine. And you look back now at that Armagh team and what they achieved and you have to say that they were awesome."
Devenney is one of a number of Donegal players who experienced long careers with the county that glittered with mostly unrealised potential. Players like Barry Monaghan and Brian Roper – both of whom represented Donegal over 100 times – Adrian Sweeney, John Gildea, Shane Carr and McGuinness himself were at the heart of a quixotic attempt to win Ulster in the years since the landmark win in 1992.
Several of that gang played in the Ulster final defeats of 1998, 2002, 2004 and 2006. A measure of the interest in those games is the last two finals were moved to Croke Park: 67,000 showed up for the 2004 final. But equally, they had this parallel career outside of Ulster which brimmed with potential. In 2003, they were dismal in the first round against Fermanagh but then kept on winning until the All-Ireland semi-final – against Armagh. They took a fancied Dublin side to a replay in the All-Ireland quarter-final of 2002.
Quote from: Minder on August 15, 2011, 06:34:39 PM
As a gesture of goodwill towards the Tyrone savages on this board
Sunday Times 14/8/2011
End of an era
Enda McGinley: It was very emotional. The sense was the core of this group won't be together again. We had played together for most of our lives, which added a greater rawness to everything. Plus the fact our once-strong team was so off the pace on a big day was tough to take. It was one of the most emotional dressing rooms I've ever been in.
E McG: Last year it was very hard to watch Dublin go on when we felt we'd had the measure of them. We felt we owed Cork a certain amount too. It felt like an All-Ireland had gotten away. That hurt quite a bit. This year there was none of that. We were well beaten and have to realise how off the pace we were and take stock.
E McG: It was left unspoken all year, but you don't forget something like that either. The senior boys were very aware of Mickey and what they're going through.
E McG: Leaving the hotel I definitely felt we're going to do the business. Training was good. The team felt fresh. The meetings had been good. The warm-up was very sharp. It felt like any time before when we'd achieved big things.
E McG: We wanted to go at their defence at speed, but their power and their discipline made it very hard to get through. Then, two or three of their forwards hit top form.
SO'N: We weren't wild impressive against Roscommon. We knew we were a bit off the finished article. It proved that way [against Dublin].
E McG: We were labelled with the blanket defence before, but it was more that wherever the ball was, we attacked it with men. That famous moment against Kerry in 2003 happened on their 45m line. Now teams are immediately falling back and allowing the opposition to come onto them.
E McG: We felt the intensity was there but we were outmatched by Dublin's. That makes losing harder, and forces the hard questions. If it's true the older boys aren't up to it, we should just clear off. But it's usually not that black and white. It's easy to go for the big clear-out, but we'll take time and make our decisions.
E McG: We can't avoid the feeling there's work to be done. The game has moved on. The bar was raised. We were doing that before. Now it's other teams. The players are still there. Maybe it'll take a slightly different approach. It's one of Mickey's mottos: embrace the challenge. I'm sure he is already.
R McM: We have to try and get the consistency into Tyrone again. Before we'd usually win maybe five out of seven games in the league. This year we won three. We need to get out of Division Two and get back that winning mentality.
E McG: We started playing together when we were 16. A lot of things change personally between 16 and 30, but these boys have been the steady presence. If that's the end, it's crap, but it has to come. There are bigger things, and bigger tragedies, in life.
Cut it down to the best parts.
Enda McGinleys a smart hoor, that is some of the best, most honest analysis i've heard in a while. Ricey isn't far behind. The league is huge for us.
Not sure why so many are writing off Block. Still a top defender in my book and if used correctly can be about for another couple of years.
Good article, it's good to see candour like that.
I wouldn't be writing too many of those lads off, I'd hope most of them stay on.
Interesting stuff, be curious to know if they met as a group for the piece as very open and honest in their analysis. Thanks v much for posting it btw!
I think it's a refreshing article and typical of the high standards of the Sunday Times when it comes to GAA.
McGinley comes across preceptive - he's a fellow you rarely hear from. I think they realise that the excuses of the 17 wides against Dublin masked what became obvious this year - tactics, fitness and application have been elevated to a new level and Tyrone need to be prepared to reach that standard if they're to compete. A bit of an onus put on the young hands too to rise to the challenge.
Good article. The influence of the manager is obvious in the honest and concise analysis of the game and where things went wrong.
It is one thing knowing where things went wrong and another fixing them though.
Tyrones problem might not be that too many of the older players will retire but that not enough will. The desire and will to win is still obvious even from this snippet but players should not be in the panel based on former glories.
Mickey Harte will have a difficult job as he has been through everything with a lot of these players but loyalty will have to give way to pragmatism if Tyrone are to get back to the top table.
Would agree with SON though that they are still in the top 6 teams in the country.
QuoteI think it's a refreshing article and typical of the high standards of the Sunday Times when it comes to GAA.
Maybe a reflection on the players rather than the paper. Would they be as open and honest with some of our local reporters if they knew their candour was for the readers of the Tyrone Times, Dungannon Observor or Ulster Herald? I doubt it.
It is undoubtedly though a very interesting, intelligent article.
Quote from: ONeill on August 15, 2011, 11:37:39 PM
I think it's a refreshing article and typical of the high standards of the Sunday Times when it comes to GAA.
McGinley comes across preceptive - he's a fellow you rarely hear from. I think they realise that the excuses of the 17 wides against Dublin masked what became obvious this year - tactics, fitness and application have been elevated to a new level and Tyrone need to be prepared to reach that standard if they're to compete. A bit of an onus put on the young hands too to rise to the challenge.
Holidays are nearly over, you must be getting edgy.
pre·cep·tive (pr-sptv)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or expressing a rule or principle that prescribes a particular course of action or conduct.
2. Instructive; didactic.
pre·ceptive·ly adv.
I see Sean Cavanagh got a serious shoulder while bench pressing last week. (no jokes). He needs to go under the knife and will struggle to make the start of the league 2011.
http://irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/battered-tyrone-need-to-be-rebuilt-declares-mcguigan-165311.html
Quote from: Rossfan on August 25, 2011, 10:16:30 AM
http://irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/battered-tyrone-need-to-be-rebuilt-declares-mcguigan-165311.html
You can always rely on our Frank for a sensible, balanced and objective assessment!
He won't be too popular down round Rossie land though ;)
No one under 40 in Ros will know who he is ... other than maybe as Brian and Tommy's oul lad.
A bit of a shoot from the hip man it appears. :)
Quote from: ONeill on August 16, 2011, 02:18:28 PM
pre·cep·tive (pr-sptv)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or expressing a rule or principle that prescribes a particular course of action or conduct.
2. Instructive; didactic.
pre·ceptive·ly adv.
I've never heard him barking orders, though he is percipient! ;)
Quote from: Rossfan on August 25, 2011, 10:16:30 AM
http://irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/battered-tyrone-need-to-be-rebuilt-declares-mcguigan-165311.html
What a shocking shocking interview!! ???
No harm, he was a great player, but some of the stuff below is out of order, and practically all of it makes him sound bitter. (My bold)
Battered Tyrone need to be rebuilt, declares McGuigan
by Paul Keane
Thursday, August 25, 2011
FORMER All Star Frank McGuigan claims he foresaw Tyrone's hammering by Dublin, insisting the once mighty Red Hands need a major overhaul.
The Tyrone great typically pulled no punches in his assessment of the current team's fortunes, saying "Mother Nature has crept up" on them.
What's most worrying is McGuigan's admission that his two sons, Tyrone forwards Brian and Tommy, may retire with a host of other veterans over the winter.
He said Brian, 32 in January, is the more likely to leave and hit out at boss Mickey Harte for substituting him against Dublin.
Even if Brian had stayed on the field, however, it is likely he would have been powerless to prevent Dublin steamrolling the 2003, 05 and 08 All-Ireland champions.
"I knew that Tyrone were coming to the end of their tether," claimed McGuigan. "You can't go on forever and that Tyrone team have been together for a long time. I noticed that the defence was slowing up a lot and I dreaded the day that they would get a hammering. It came against Dublin. It made Dublin look a lot better than they are.
"You're always hoping against hope that the opposition won't be good enough and maybe they'd get away with it. But the defence is a bit slow and we lost the midfield battle too."
Tyrone did run up a big score on Roscommon to set up the clash with Dublin, though McGuigan was dismissive of this.
"Roscommon — what have they done?" he asked.
"It's just one of those things. Mother Nature has crept up on Tyrone. It's time for a rebuilding process."
But McGuigan doesn't see much talent coming through.
"The way I look at it, we need a lot of young players and I don't know where they are," he continued.
"I don't see them in Tyrone to be honest with you."
McGuigan fancies Donegal to beat an over-hyped Dublin team this weekend but argues the Ulster champions shouldn't be in the semi-final at all. "Donegal shouldn't be there," he maintained, referencing Tomás Connor's quarter-final goal for Kildare which was ruled out for a heavily debated square ball infringement.
"Kildare beat them in my eyes. How these umpires and referees — I have been preaching it for years — how do they get it wrong on a day like that? These Kildare players put in a massive effort. They got a perfectly good goal and it's disallowed — that's not on the cards at all."
Asked if it ever happened to McGuigan as a player, he replied: "No, it didn't. And if it did the referee or the umpire wouldn't have been going home!"
Read more: http://irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/battered-tyrone-need-to-be-rebuilt-declares-mcguigan-165311.html#ixzz1W2yfT996
achh lads, calm down. It's just Frank being Frank. There should be more of this kinda thing. Way too much sanitised nonsense doing the rounds these days.
The King always says what he thinks,not everyone's cup of tea but as Sheamy points out it makes a change from all the usual nonsense spouted from pundits.
Except that were Spillane to say any of that in relation to Derry or Tyrone, ye'd be jumping on him like a rat up a drainpipe.
Would I?
Sorry, the collective 'ye'. But no matter who he is, comments like that make him look very bitter in my view.
This is the way people talk...in Derry, Kerry, Tyrone and everywhere else. I really don't see the problem. People in Tyrone love Spillane. They just call him a bollox but he'd pull 1000 people at a chat night all the same.
The only difference is Frank says it in the papers and fair play to him. As John Brennan said recently if they are silly enough to publish everything I say, then I can be even more silly.
He's not wrong about much either. If a good goal had been given Donegal were 6 down v Kildare and game over. Roscommon haven't won much and that would be most people's view. Pub talk if you like. It's lazy analysis though as they have an AI minor, provincial title etc but in the main they're not in the top 4-5 teams yet. So be it.
Those in the know however, know that Roscommon are an excellent up and coming county with excellent youth structures and physical development plans. I really don't think that's gonna bother too many Rossies.
As for killing or making sure the ref/umpire didn't get home....christ lad, give me a break...
It doesn't sound bitter to me, just a bit o'craic. Bitter maybe towards Mickey Harte for taking Brian off! but that's about it.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 25, 2011, 03:04:36 PM
Sorry, the collective 'ye'. But no matter who he is, comments like that make him look very bitter in my view.
Nobody that I know in Tyrone take him seriously so would not get too hung up on what he says.
Edit Mod 3. Completely out of order Trout.
Quote from: Trout on August 25, 2011, 03:18:48 PM
Edit Mod 3. Completely out of order Trout.
FFS..you may not agree with McGuigan's comments but thats as low a comment as I've read on this board...ridiculous
Quote from: J OGorman on August 25, 2011, 03:21:20 PM
Quote from: Trout on August 25, 2011, 03:18:48 PM
Edit Mod 3. Completely out of order Trout.
FFS..you may not agree with McGuigan's comments but thats as low a comment as I've read on this board...ridiculous
Common knowledge he sold his All Star trophy and has been mentioned several times on this board. Didn't know it was now out of bounds.
What did Trout say that was so bad?
Quote from: Trout on August 25, 2011, 03:26:00 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on August 25, 2011, 03:21:20 PM
Quote from: Trout on August 25, 2011, 03:18:48 PM
Edit Mod 3. Completely out of order Trout.
FFS..you may not agree with McGuigan's comments but thats as low a comment as I've read on this board...ridiculous
Common knowledge he sold his All Star trophy and has been mentioned several times on this board. Didn't know it was now out of bounds.
just read through some of your previous posts..if I'd known you were a hate filled racist bigot hiding behind a keyboard I wouldnt have bothered my hole giving you the time of day...we live and learn
Quote from: Rossfan on August 25, 2011, 12:45:19 PM
No one under 40 in Ros will know who he is ... other than maybe as Brian and Tommy's oul lad.
A bit of a shoot from the hip man it appears. :)
""Roscommon — what have they done?" he asked" Same question could have been asked of Tyrone not so long ago but i doubt former Roscommon All-stars would have been as disrespectful as Mr McGuigan.
Sure it will be good motivation for Roscommon next time you play us.
Quote from: ross4life on August 25, 2011, 03:48:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 25, 2011, 12:45:19 PM
No one under 40 in Ros will know who he is ... other than maybe as Brian and Tommy's oul lad.
A bit of a shoot from the hip man it appears. :)
""Roscommon — what have they done?" he asked" Same question could have been asked of Tyrone not so long ago but i doubt former Roscommon All-stars would have been as disrespectful as Mr McGuigan.
gonna ask Jigger tomorrow @ the gym for the craic, then hide
I played football in San Diego years ago, and there was a lad from Roscommon training the team. He had a little terrier called Jigger :D
Say what you like about Frank McGuigan, but he was some footballer.
No question about that.
As brash as ever from the King but when you strip it all back there is plenty of merit in a lot of what he is saying.
He doesn't agree with the perceived conveyor belt of county footballers anyway. Despite the minor wins, the Dubs wins in 2010 & 11 could be the end of Tyrone for a while.
I hope not, but lack of U-21 success is a bum after the minors doing it 3-years previous.
I know you're not meant to say certain things now in case you offend the sensitive, but there's a lot of merit in what he said. He didn't mean any disrespect to Roscommon - he was just saying some people got carried away after that game and beating Roscommon doesn't make you an All-Ireland contender. Beating Tyrone now doesn't make you an All-Ireland contender either.
The Tyrone talent - Tyrone seemed to be producing players (good footballers with excellent basic skills) who knew how to play a system from U16. But there didn't seem to be any outstanding talents along the lines of a Stephen O'Neill or Brian McGuigan - players who can win you All-Irelands.
Tyrone were due a beating I agree and also the point about Donegal is also true.
Put it this way O'Neill, I'm old enough to remember Tyrones first ever Senior All Ireland final appearance in 1986, back then you could count on one hand the amount of Ulster titles you had won if we had played & beat Tyrone around then i wouldn't like to read somebody like Harry Keegan disrespecting a proud footballing county like yours & yes it was disrespecting whatever way you like to paint it.
As for his point on Donegal, who's to say what might have happened if the Kildare goal had stood? he just comes across as bitter in those comments & really should be offering his support to his Ulster neighbours.
That last paragraph is nonsense. Offer his support to his neighbours? How do you who he's supporting? Where did he say he wasn't hoping Donegal win? Why can he not give his opinion on decisions?
You're missing the point re Roscommon. He's saying Tyrone fans had unrealistic expectations this year and some thought beating Roscommon was a sign they were All Ireland material again all of a sudden. Don't be so sensitive.
Reading between the lines it will be hard for him to get over his bitterness. Not missing the point "what have they done?" maybe he should have used the word recently! if something like that was said by a poster here or elsewhere i would totally ignore it but it was said by a former All-Star that played in that era when Roscommon were fairly decent & BTW Tyrone fans had unrealistic expectations before they played Roscommon.
Coney, mc kenna harte are 3 outstanding talents
To be fair though, what the f**k have roscommon won??
;)
they won a minor final a few years back. They are still celebrating it, god love them.
The bar for "sucesss" is very low in Roscommon.
Any time we think of celebrating that Minor win ... the sight of Kerrymen crying always comes back to make us feel guilty.
As for Trileac... i'd say they're fairly loaded down with honours up your way alright ;)
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 26, 2011, 08:46:35 PM
they won a minor final a few years back. They are still celebrating it, god love them.
The bar for "sucesss" is very low in Roscommon.
'Tis a sad sad day when Sheehy fishes for victims from another county on a Tyrone thread. Have we slipped that far Mike?
Quote from: ONeill on August 25, 2011, 11:47:16 PM
I know you're not meant to say certain things now in case you offend the sensitive, but there's a lot of merit in what he said. He didn't mean any disrespect to Roscommon - he was just saying some people got carried away after that game and beating Roscommon doesn't make you an All-Ireland contender. Beating Tyrone now doesn't make you an All-Ireland contender either.
The Tyrone talent - Tyrone seemed to be producing players (good footballers with excellent basic skills) who knew how to play a system from U16. But there didn't seem to be any outstanding talents along the lines of a Stephen O'Neill or Brian McGuigan - players who can win you All-Irelands.
Tyrone were due a beating I agree and also the point about Donegal is also true.
I wouldnt take offence to the comment about Roscommon. I think its clear he meant in recent times and not referring to the Earley/McManus/Keegan etc years. Tyrone have won 3 AI seniors and multiple underage titles in the last decade in a half so compared to that we've won nothing.
That being said McGuigan senior often comes across as a bitter old windbag. I clearly remember him as a truly exceptional player. That Ulster final performance was probably the best individual one ever. He is similar to Spillane in that vein. Another legend of the game who's legacy will now to be remembered as a cranky ould man.
Pity they couldnt have the class when retired to be like a Jack O'Se or Dermot Earley (RIP) or even Peter Canavan who when they do have something to say its either positive or if its criticism its constructive and intelligent.
Yeah Mike Sheehy. Our bar isnt as high as yours. Who's is? But our day will come.
Hope it stays fine for ya. Probably wont for much longer though.
Seeing as we are on a Tyrone thread unfortunately your bar for success is a little tarnished choking against them 3 times though isnt it? In either puke football or class football when they were at their peak and ye at ye'ers ye couldnt match them. You really should set your bar higher Mike.
Quote from: ross matt on August 26, 2011, 09:24:36 PM
Seeing as we are on a Tyrone thread unfortunately your bar for success is a little tarnished choking against them 3 times though isnt it? .
Wouldnt mind if we choked 3 times against somone and won the All Irl each year after Matt. :)
Still tá ár lá ag teacht le cúnamh Dé. 8)
Quote from: Rossfan on August 26, 2011, 10:29:44 PM
Quote from: ross matt on August 26, 2011, 09:24:36 PM
Seeing as we are on a Tyrone thread unfortunately your bar for success is a little tarnished choking against them 3 times though isnt it? .
Wouldnt mind if we choked 3 times against somone and won the All Irl each year after Matt. :)
Still tá ár lá ag teacht le cúnamh Dé. 8)
They only won it coz we let them Rossie. ;D ;D
Hard to know about talent making it through to Senior level. Coney seems to be on the right track. Will hopefully stay injury free and be given a regular spot next year. We need someone who can shoot from distance.
Ronan O'Neill seems like an outstanding prospect. Have not seen much of him in club football so don't know if he is near getting a senior county run.
Mattie Donnelly certainly has the size now and a considerable amount of skill nwoild expect him to feature in 2012.
What about Grugan and Harry Og? Will they skip u21 in 2012 and go straight to senior?
I think Tyrone had a big part to play in the debacle of a game that unfolded today. Is this type of football the true legacy that they leave behind ?
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 29, 2011, 12:41:02 AM
I think Tyrone had a big part to play in the debacle of a game that unfolded today. Is this type of football the true legacy that they leave behind ?
That's more like it!
Good man Mike.
Like myself, yer getting back to yourself.
Just listened to 3 auxillary ladies here in the hospital nattering about the match. Class stuff
Giving out stink about Donegal and their dirty tactics all day. Then yer man diving as if he was punched in the face. Its hilarious listening to "older" ladies discussing the ins and outs of GAA football
The auld birds know their football
One ended up saying
<In strong Dub accent>
Well Maaaary I won't be going back to Bundoran next year after dat
Sure ye could get raped or anyting. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 29, 2011, 07:39:17 AM
The auld birds know their football
Yea, apparently Spillane's granny was class.
That was his mother. Played for Armagh. His granny couldn't kick snow off a rope.
(http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/wishawpress/may2010/6/2/a-image-3-280744152.jpg)
Ma Spillane and Pat (1969)