Wanted to post this in a seperate thread from the Armagh v Dublin thread.
Many Orchard fans in a knee jerk reaction to Saturday are talking about the All Ireland Minors from last year.
Too small
Too light
Too young
For Gods sake let them play a year or 2 at U21 first.
Look how many of the 92 Minors were at their best in...2002
Give the lads time to mature, and who knows?
Its on TG4 now lads.
Had somebody followed your advice with Ronan Clarke there'd have been no All Ireland in 2002.
The stars from last year's side will all be turning 20 in 2011, if they're good enough and want to be involved I see no reason why they shouldn't be part of the senior squad.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 19, 2010, 08:37:04 PM
Had somebody followed your advice with Ronan Clarke there'd have been no All Ireland in 2002.
The stars from last year's side will all be turning 20 in 2011, if they're good enough and want to be involved I see no reason why they shouldn't be part of the senior squad.
Fair enough, but Clarke was introduced into an exceptional front line.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is dont be heaping pressure on the lads.
Ronan Clarke.
If you're good enough, you're old enough.
Obviously having the physique to play with the big boys is vital.
Some of the minors have been brought onto the panel already which is encouraging. Bring more in i say, let them train with the established lads and see if they can hack it
QuoteArmagh Fans ...give the minors time
reminds me of a Magners ad! :D
If so phew of that minor team were going to be used at senior and even U-21 level this year would it not have been a good idea to have an u-19 or u-20 development squad?
Quote from: David McKeown on July 21, 2010, 10:15:22 AM
If so phew of that minor team were going to be used at senior and even U-21 level this year would it not have been a good idea to have an u-19 or u-20 development squad?
It seems someone has already thought of that.
http://www.armagh-gaa.com/My-Armagh/Teams,-Squads---Coaching.aspx - Post Minor (U20)
Did the consideration of dumping the Minor & u21 chamionship and replacing with one u19 or u20 competition instead ever get as far as congress for consideration?
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 20, 2010, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 19, 2010, 08:37:04 PM
Had somebody followed your advice with Ronan Clarke there'd have been no All Ireland in 2002.
The stars from last year's side will all be turning 20 in 2011, if they're good enough and want to be involved I see no reason why they shouldn't be part of the senior squad.
Fair enough, but Clarke was introduced into an exceptional front line.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is dont be heaping pressure on the lads.
Don't think anybody would be putting pressure on the lads at all. The senior team is crying out for forward talent. The best attacking display I have seen from any Armagh team in 30 odd years of following them was the first half of the AIQF match against Kildare last year. Let's see how those lads would get on with the step up.
Let's see a forward line along the lines of-
Grugan Ronan Clarke/Stevie Swift
J Clarke Ronan Clarke/Stevie Tasker/McVerry
It would help the learning curve of the younger lads to be playing alongside Stevie and Ronan Clarke (if fit). Gavin McParland could be threw in there too, give them a taste of it, see how they get on. I wouldn't be throwing Stefan Forker out of the mix either.
i dont know whether to laugh or cry when people mention Ronan Clarke as proof that all these minors should be blooded.
How many other fresh minors were in that team or even squad?? eh..... NONE!! Marsden, McConville, McEntee, McKeever, McDonnell - all these players were around for a long time before 2002 and without this unit around him who knows what Clarke would have done in 02.
Look at the brilliant Down minors of the past 10-15 years, what have they done?? They won the AI in 2005 and look what a powerhouse of AI football they've become. Underage AI success guarantees nothing. Down 1999 & 2005, Derry 2002 to name 2 sides, what have they acheived with teams that have the same pedigree of underage as us?
Look at the Tyrone underage, they won it in 2001,04 & 08 but the bulk of their key players still come from the 1998 team because they have grown into men - even that great side with McGinley, O'Neill, McGuigan, Mulligan, McConnell etc took 5 years to win Ulster/AI at senior level
Going back to Clarke, he was an exceptional player who had the physical atrributes to make the step up but you're kidding yourself if this means we have another group who can come in and do the same thing. He's been lauded as the best full forward we've ever produced and when fit in the top 2/3 forwards in the country.
If anything - to a rational mind - Clarke is not only the exception to the rule, he's the exception that PROVES the rule.
I'm not saying dont start to bring them in in dribs and drabs, and get them experience (which has been happening this season with a few coming on the panel) but some people expect them to come in and be world beaters straight away! This will not happen I'm afraid so we're just going to have to be patient!
Quite apart from his direct contribution, keeping Stevie on board provides invaluable experience. You could have himself and Ronan, very experienced, Swift and J Clarke, now somewhat experienced, and then a newcomer or two.
My concern would be that the team style of play will not be influenced by a young newcomer and it has seemed invulnerable to change. It is like one of those groupthink experiments where they gradually change the personnel, but the pattern remains after all of the original people who established it had gone! So it is not just a question of bringing in a player or two.
well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think bringing minors in en masse is crazy, the entire history of successful GAA teams would appear to side with me.
Quotewell, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
eireogatron, if it is me that you are disagreeing with, I don't think we do disagree. When I say that it is not just a question of bringing in a player or two, I don't mean bring in a shed load of minors, I mean develop new tactics, coach existing players as well as bringing in a couple of minors.
QuoteI mean develop new tactics, coach existing players as well as bringing in a couple of minors.
I'll bet not too many managers have thought of that one. ;)
Quote from: armaghniac on July 21, 2010, 01:11:18 PM
Quotewell, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
eireogatron, if it is me that you are disagreeing with, I don't think we do disagree. When I say that it is not just a question of bringing in a player or two, I don't mean bring in a shed load of minors, I mean develop new tactics, coach existing players as well as bringing in a couple of minors.
apologies matey- thats is what I think!! Although I'm not sure if the players are there, to a national pedigree to challenge for the next few years.
I don't see the harm in bringing in a few of those minors next year and giving them actual game time in the McKenna cup and league and not just having them warm the bench all year. In fact i'd say there would be a great opportunity lost if we didn't have the likes of Grugan, McParland, Tasker, McVerry, Murnin in there. If they're good enough why hold them back? No they shouldn't be brought in to the team en masse and left to sink or swim, but they have to start their intercounty career at some point so why not let them start gettting that experience from 19/20. It's not that young. County sides up and down the country have lads that age playing. Tyrone didn't win the AI until 2003 but they had the 98 minor side personnel getting senior championship experience in 2000.
Stefan Campbell is ready for senior, he's 6'1" and is broadening out at the shoulders. A few months of the weights and he's sorted although he is quite strong but for inter county you just need that we bit extra
Quote from: Armamike on July 21, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
I don't see the harm in bringing in a few of those minors next year and giving them actual game time in the McKenna cup and league and not just having them warm the bench all year. In fact i'd say there would be a great opportunity lost if we didn't have the likes of Grugan, McParland, Tasker, McVerry, Murnin in there. If they're good enough why hold them back? No they shouldn't be brought in to the team en masse and left to sink or swim, but they have to start their intercounty career at some point so why not let them start gettting that experience from 19/20. It's not that young. County sides up and down the country have lads that age playing. Tyrone didn't win the AI until 2003 but they had the 98 minor side personnel getting senior championship experience in 2000.
i agree totally. Some people though, think that throwing all the minors in next year will win us the All ireland. It wont. As you say, experience is key but not all will be good enough or ready at that stage. Some will, some wont - its the nature of the beast. And even when they are ready it will take a while before "intercounty" standard becomes "all ireland" standard, if at all. No offence to any of them because they're all better players than I, but can you imagine them forming a half forward line and challenging the likes of O'Se, O'Mahony, Jordan, Harte, Gormley, McMahon, animals like O'Leary, Canty & even Freeman, McQuaid et al?
however, whatever way it is approached these young fellas wont be winning a senior AI medal for a few years - we dont have the players at the minute and my argument is with the boys who think we do. Playing for the county at 19 is one thing challenging for major honours against seasoned stars is another.
Might I add, I am not belittling the acheivements or talent of these boys but just calling for some levity in our standing in todays game and the likelihood off a mass influx of teenagers, however talented, raising us to top 5 standing in the next year or 2.
Quote from: eireogatron on July 21, 2010, 05:31:50 PM
Quote from: Armamike on July 21, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
I don't see the harm in bringing in a few of those minors next year and giving them actual game time in the McKenna cup and league and not just having them warm the bench all year. In fact i'd say there would be a great opportunity lost if we didn't have the likes of Grugan, McParland, Tasker, McVerry, Murnin in there. If they're good enough why hold them back? No they shouldn't be brought in to the team en masse and left to sink or swim, but they have to start their intercounty career at some point so why not let them start gettting that experience from 19/20. It's not that young. County sides up and down the country have lads that age playing. Tyrone didn't win the AI until 2003 but they had the 98 minor side personnel getting senior championship experience in 2000.
i agree totally. Some people though, think that throwing all the minors in next year will win us the All ireland. It wont. As you say, experience is key but not all will be good enough or ready at that stage. Some will, some wont - its the nature of the beast. And even when they are ready it will take a while before "intercounty" standard becomes "all ireland" standard, if at all. No offence to any of them because they're all better players than I, but can you imagine them forming a half forward line and challenging the likes of O'Se, O'Mahony, Jordan, Harte, Gormley, McMahon, animals like O'Leary, Canty & even Freeman, McQuaid et al?
however, whatever way it is approached these young fellas wont be winning a senior AI medal for a few years - we dont have the players at the minute and my argument is with the boys who think we do. Playing for the county at 19 is one thing challenging for major honours against seasoned stars is another.
Might I add, I am not belittling the acheivements or talent of these boys but just calling for some levity in our standing in todays game and the likelihood off a mass influx of teenagers, however talented, raising us to top 5 standing in the next year or 2.
We have the player.
They are not coached. They spend all of their time on conditioning and skill drills.
We have no game plan worth talking about and only a tiny percentage of training time is spent work, adapting, implementing it.
Quote from: DuffleKing on July 21, 2010, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 21, 2010, 05:31:50 PM
Quote from: Armamike on July 21, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
I don't see the harm in bringing in a few of those minors next year and giving them actual game time in the McKenna cup and league and not just having them warm the bench all year. In fact i'd say there would be a great opportunity lost if we didn't have the likes of Grugan, McParland, Tasker, McVerry, Murnin in there. If they're good enough why hold them back? No they shouldn't be brought in to the team en masse and left to sink or swim, but they have to start their intercounty career at some point so why not let them start gettting that experience from 19/20. It's not that young. County sides up and down the country have lads that age playing. Tyrone didn't win the AI until 2003 but they had the 98 minor side personnel getting senior championship experience in 2000.
i agree totally. Some people though, think that throwing all the minors in next year will win us the All ireland. It wont. As you say, experience is key but not all will be good enough or ready at that stage. Some will, some wont - its the nature of the beast. And even when they are ready it will take a while before "intercounty" standard becomes "all ireland" standard, if at all. No offence to any of them because they're all better players than I, but can you imagine them forming a half forward line and challenging the likes of O'Se, O'Mahony, Jordan, Harte, Gormley, McMahon, animals like O'Leary, Canty & even Freeman, McQuaid et al?
however, whatever way it is approached these young fellas wont be winning a senior AI medal for a few years - we dont have the players at the minute and my argument is with the boys who think we do. Playing for the county at 19 is one thing challenging for major honours against seasoned stars is another.
Might I add, I am not belittling the acheivements or talent of these boys but just calling for some levity in our standing in todays game and the likelihood off a mass influx of teenagers, however talented, raising us to top 5 standing in the next year or 2.
We have the player.
They are not coached. They spend all of their time on conditioning and skill drills.
We have no game plan worth talking about and only a tiny percentage of training time is spent work, adapting, implementing it.
That's my views exactly too DuffleKing based on what I've heard.
I also agree fully - Armagh have the players, I don't think the right ones are being picked in the right places however ...
QuoteWe have the playesr.
They are not coached.
I agree completely. The likes of Vernon has obvious talent and with a bit of fine tuning and a proper team plan can make a greater contribution.
Quote from: DuffleKing on July 21, 2010, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 21, 2010, 05:31:50 PM
Quote from: Armamike on July 21, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
I don't see the harm in bringing in a few of those minors next year and giving them actual game time in the McKenna cup and league and not just having them warm the bench all year. In fact i'd say there would be a great opportunity lost if we didn't have the likes of Grugan, McParland, Tasker, McVerry, Murnin in there. If they're good enough why hold them back? No they shouldn't be brought in to the team en masse and left to sink or swim, but they have to start their intercounty career at some point so why not let them start gettting that experience from 19/20. It's not that young. County sides up and down the country have lads that age playing. Tyrone didn't win the AI until 2003 but they had the 98 minor side personnel getting senior championship experience in 2000.
i agree totally. Some people though, think that throwing all the minors in next year will win us the All ireland. It wont. As you say, experience is key but not all will be good enough or ready at that stage. Some will, some wont - its the nature of the beast. And even when they are ready it will take a while before "intercounty" standard becomes "all ireland" standard, if at all. No offence to any of them because they're all better players than I, but can you imagine them forming a half forward line and challenging the likes of O'Se, O'Mahony, Jordan, Harte, Gormley, McMahon, animals like O'Leary, Canty & even Freeman, McQuaid et al?
however, whatever way it is approached these young fellas wont be winning a senior AI medal for a few years - we dont have the players at the minute and my argument is with the boys who think we do. Playing for the county at 19 is one thing challenging for major honours against seasoned stars is another.
Might I add, I am not belittling the acheivements or talent of these boys but just calling for some levity in our standing in todays game and the likelihood off a mass influx of teenagers, however talented, raising us to top 5 standing in the next year or 2.
We have the player.
They are not coached. They spend all of their time on conditioning and skill drills.
We have no game plan worth talking about and only a tiny percentage of training time is spent work, adapting, implementing it.
Similiar to Spillaine's complaint a few years ago about the Armagh boys spending too much time in the gym and not enough on putting the ball over the bar.
Anyways, lets look forward to next season with some excitement. I know I am.
Would Clarke not be a good reason not to bring them on??
Clarke is what 26 or so? The fella seems to have been hanging together this last few years. I dunno if that fella will be back right at all.
Don't get me wrong - I hope he gets back to his best soon. It just seems like he is constantly injured.
Also McDonnell won't have too much left in him. If, and that is if, he plays another year I'd say it'll be his last.
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 21, 2010, 08:46:56 PM
Would Clarke not be a good reason not to bring them on??
Clarke is what 26 or so? The fella seems to have been hanging together this last few years. I dunno if that fella will be back right at all.
Don't get me wrong - I hope he gets back to his best soon. It just seems like he is constantly injured.
Perhaps, but there were several other members of the 2002 team that progressed to the seniors before the age of twenty and it didn't seem to do them much harm. Indeed, for every Clarke with his injury problems you can point to a Colm Cooper or Sean Cavanagh, who've also been playing senior intercounty since they were 19 and, as far as I can remember, haven't suffered many major problems.
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 21, 2010, 08:46:56 PM
Also McDonnell won't have too much left in him. If, and that is if, he plays another year I'd say it'll be his last.
There's no if about it, he has confirmed he'll be back next year. Also, the way he was name checking the minors gave me the impression that he was intent on sticking around until those lads came through. I'd say he'll be there til the end of the O'Rourke reign anyway, whether that's next summer or two or three years down the line.
I hope he stays round. If those boys could get a year or two playing with him and Clarke they could learn a lot. Throw in Jamie Clarke and plenty for them to learn of. I just hope some of them are good half forwards!
Clarke may or may not be victim of starting too young. Kerry / Tyrone wouldn't have the same pump iron strategy armagh had which could be a factor. Or he could just be injury prone - I guess we'll never know.
QuoteThere's no if about it, he has confirmed he'll be back next year. Also, the way he was name checking the minors gave me the impression that he was intent on sticking around until those lads came through.
This is very welcome news. Padraig Joyce showed how well a "mature" player can do, although like Stevie many of the younger fellows around him have neither the skill nor the drive that he has. I'd rest Stevie to some extent, and put out some of the younger prospects, although Div 1 makes this hard.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 21, 2010, 07:31:52 PM
QuoteWe have the playesr.
They are not coached.
I agree completely. The likes of Vernon has obvious talent and with a bit of fine tuning and a proper team plan can make a greater contribution.
you think we have the players to win an AI next year?? HA!
Quote from: eireogatron on July 21, 2010, 12:51:33 PM
well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think bringing minors in en masse is crazy, the entire history of successful GAA teams would appear to side with me.
There's nobody suggesting that we bring minors in en masse. I think all posters agree that ALL the minors mentioned get a go at some stage through the league at various times but not at the same time. That would be crazy. The forward line I listed earlier only had two of them, one on each line, hardly en masse.
Quote from: mackers on July 22, 2010, 10:30:22 AM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 21, 2010, 12:51:33 PM
well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think bringing minors in en masse is crazy, the entire history of successful GAA teams would appear to side with me.
There's nobody suggesting that we bring minors in en masse. I think all posters agree that ALL the minors mentioned get a go at some stage through the league at various times but not at the same time. That would be crazy. The forward line I listed earlier only had two of them, one on each line, hardly en masse.
some people on this site and others are actually suggesting that and seem to think AI minor medals give us a devine right to AI senior success, which is not the case IMO. I didnt mention you or your selection, and have already addressed this post earlier in the thread
Quote from: eireogatron on July 22, 2010, 11:07:33 AM
Quote from: mackers on July 22, 2010, 10:30:22 AM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 21, 2010, 12:51:33 PM
well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think bringing minors in en masse is crazy, the entire history of successful GAA teams would appear to side with me.
There's nobody suggesting that we bring minors in en masse. I think all posters agree that ALL the minors mentioned get a go at some stage through the league at various times but not at the same time. That would be crazy. The forward line I listed earlier only had two of them, one on each line, hardly en masse.
some people on this site and others are actually suggesting that and seem to think AI minor medals give us a devine right to AI senior success, which is not the case IMO. I didnt mention you or your selection, and have already addressed this post earlier in the thread
Who suggested that?
Quote from: eireogatron on July 22, 2010, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 21, 2010, 07:31:52 PM
QuoteWe have the playesr.
They are not coached.
I agree completely. The likes of Vernon has obvious talent and with a bit of fine tuning and a proper team plan can make a greater contribution.
you think we have the players to win an AI next year?? HA!
I do as it happens
Quote from: DuffleKing on July 22, 2010, 11:18:43 AM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 22, 2010, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 21, 2010, 07:31:52 PM
QuoteWe have the playesr.
They are not coached.
I agree completely. The likes of Vernon has obvious talent and with a bit of fine tuning and a proper team plan can make a greater contribution.
you think we have the players to win an AI next year?? HA!
I do as it happens
i dont think we have any chance for at least another 4 years.
however, if you are right (and I honestly hope you are) I'll be a very happy man indeed!
Quote from: DuffleKing on July 22, 2010, 11:18:43 AM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 22, 2010, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 21, 2010, 07:31:52 PM
QuoteWe have the playesr.
They are not coached.
I agree completely. The likes of Vernon has obvious talent and with a bit of fine tuning and a proper team plan can make a greater contribution.
you think we have the players to win an AI next year?? HA!
I do as it happens
Always good to be positive!