Poll
Question:
Death penalty. Yes or no?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 31
Option 2: No
votes: 91
Option 3: Not sure
votes: 6
With Gregory Campbell calling for a reintroduction of the death penalty and todays relatively grizzly execution in Saudi Arabia- what are your thoughts on the death penalty.
If you could make sure that the crime fit the penalty (eg child abuse, pre meditated murder to name a few), and that it was used in only cases where there was not a shred of doubt as to the guilt of the accused, would you be pro or anti the death penalty?
I think the death penalty offers little. Hypothetically speaking, if it was reintroduced in this part of the world it would only be called in the most extreme circumstances. Someone who is capable of the evil things that happened in the Saudi case is not likely to be deterred by a death penalty. So firstly I dont think it is a deterrent.
Secondly, there have been significant miscarriages of justice in Ireland down the years. It happens rarely but the potential for executing an innocent (or relatively innocent) person is there.
Lastly, this stunt by Campbell is a smokescreen to the real problem crime in this country, the petty theft, drug dealing, robbing the elderly, etc, the stuff a death penalty would not be entertained for
Quote from: whiskeysteve on November 04, 2009, 03:32:29 PM
I think the death penalty offers little. Hypothetically speaking, if it was reintroduced in this part of the world it would only be called in the most extreme circumstances. Someone who is capable of the evil things that happened in the Saudi case is not likely to be deterred by a death penalty. So firstly I dont think it is a deterrent.
Secondly, there have been significant miscarriages of justice in Ireland down the years. It happens rarely but the potential for executing an innocent (or relatively innocent) person is there.
Lastly, this stunt by Campbell is a smokescreen to the real problem crime in this country, the petty theft, drug dealing, robbing the elderly, etc, the stuff a death penalty would not be entertained for
In extreme cases i am all for it, that saudi bastard deserved to die and in a case like that I think it is right to put them to death. Why should we all pay to keep a sc**bag like that alive?
the only problem I have is that from time to time a man will be wrongly convicted and that cant happen so life doing hard labour would be ok with me, if they worked seven days a week for 10 hours a day and locked up the rest of the time i would be ok with feeding them at the taxpayers expense.
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
I disagree we have the right system. Somebody who commits rape or childabuse can get a 8 year term and be out in 5 with good behavior. How is that 'the right system'
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 04:26:27 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
I disagree we have the right system. Somebody who commits rape or childabuse can get a 8 year term and be out in 5 with good behavior. How is that 'the right system'
The subject is 'death penalty, yes or no?' Is it not?
Pedophiles and rapists should not be kept in isolation from the rest of the prison population, dump the f**kers in with everyone else, there should be no special treatment or looking after these evil bastards, they would be killed within a day or 2, no need to reintroduce the death penalty just put them in jail with no protection. Everyone's a winner.
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:34:03 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 04:26:27 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
I disagree we have the right system. Somebody who commits rape or childabuse can get a 8 year term and be out in 5 with good behavior. How is that 'the right system'
The subject is 'death penalty, yes or no?' Is it not?
You were the one who brought up 'the right system'
I was just pointing out that I think you are wrong but I guess the amount of time served is another argument.
Bring it back for all crimes, big or small. Then there'd be no need for people to live in fear anymore...
What was the "grizzly" execution in Saudi Puck?
To be honest i have mixed views on it,
In one way I think yeh definetly kill the bad bastards
but then on another i think killing is too good for them, they should be tortured rather than killed, Paedo's and Rapist's and the likes,
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:34:03 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 04:26:27 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
I disagree we have the right system. Somebody who commits rape or childabuse can get a 8 year term and be out in 5 with good behavior. How is that 'the right system'
The subject is 'death penalty, yes or no?' Is it not?
You were the one who brought up 'the right system'
I was just pointing out that I think you are wrong but I guess the amount of time served is another argument.
'Right system' in regard to death penalty was my opinion only, I would never suggest that 5 yrs for child abuse and or rape would be ok and am offended you interpreted it that way. But I accept your apology ;)
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 05:07:45 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:34:03 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 04:26:27 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
I disagree we have the right system. Somebody who commits rape or childabuse can get a 8 year term and be out in 5 with good behavior. How is that 'the right system'
The subject is 'death penalty, yes or no?' Is it not?
You were the one who brought up 'the right system'
I was just pointing out that I think you are wrong but I guess the amount of time served is another argument.
'Right system' in regard to death penalty was my opinion only, I would never suggest that 5 yrs for child abuse and or rape would be ok and am offended you interpreted it that way. But I accept your apology ;)
Fair enough. As long as you have learned to make yourself more clear in the future my job is done ;) :P
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 05:12:49 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 05:07:45 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:34:03 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 04, 2009, 04:26:27 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
I disagree we have the right system. Somebody who commits rape or childabuse can get a 8 year term and be out in 5 with good behavior. How is that 'the right system'
The subject is 'death penalty, yes or no?' Is it not?
You were the one who brought up 'the right system'
I was just pointing out that I think you are wrong but I guess the amount of time served is another argument.
'Right system' in regard to death penalty was my opinion only, I would never suggest that 5 yrs for child abuse and or rape would be ok and am offended you interpreted it that way. But I accept your apology ;)
Fair enough. As long as you have learned to make yourself more clear in the future my job is done ;) :P
Keep that up and it won't be long until you are walking the mile yourself ;D
Quote from: Master Yoda on November 04, 2009, 04:51:16 PM
Pedophiles and rapists should not be kept in isolation from the rest of the prison population, dump the f**kers in with everyone else, there should be no special treatment or looking after these evil b**tards, they would be killed within a day or 2, no need to reintroduce the death penalty just put them in jail with no protection. Everyone's a winner.
Nah, killing them would be much cheaper on the tax payer
Fine, but if we hang them all (but not before torturing them first, just to make a few people feel better), then for the ones subsequently found to be innocent, the jury, judge, prosecuting counsel and charging officers should be hanged (and feckit, tortured as well). That's only fair, isn't it?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 04, 2009, 05:05:38 PM
Bring it back for all crimes, big or small. Then there'd be no need for people to live in fear anymore...
For fcuk sake where did they get you from ? :o
Then again if you're system was confined to Mayo ........hmmmm :D
QuoteBring it back for all crimes, big or small. Then there'd be no need for people to live in fear anymore...
The death penalty is not an effective deterrant so you'd have the normal fears as well as the fears of being accused of something in the wrong.
The death penalty should not be used for the simple reason that innocents will die.
Always been against it myself for a few reasons. I can never understand how a 'Christian' soul like Gregory Campbell would want to see another human murdered. How does that work exactly? Why stoop to the level of the murderer? The evidence in states like Texas shows that it's not an effective deterent. Was always struck too by the UK's chief executioner Albert Pierrepoint's conclusion that it didn't make a difference to preventing murder. If we're talking punishment, better imo to give murderers longer jail sentences and let them reflect on their deeds during a lifetime behind bars.
I like the Alexander Solzhenitsyn quote:
"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
Didn't Thomas Hamilton give himself the death penalty?... "The Dunblane massacre was a multiple murder-suicide which occurred at Dunblane Primary School in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. Sixteen children and one adult were killed by the attacker,
Thomas Watt Hamilton, before he committed suicide. It remains the deadliest single targeted mass murder of children in the history of the United Kingdom."
Must be Trevor Hamilton from Sion Mills you are thinking of... he killed the woman coming home from Mass a few years ago.
Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 05, 2009, 12:37:58 AM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
The death penalty could have led to many innocents dying over the years of troubles, the Birmingham 6 for example. Its a hard one to square with yourself though as I would be all for paedos, child killers and the like getting the extreme punishment, but how do you determine which crimes, where do you draw the line? Think we have the right system in the West tbh.
Likes of Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton etc should never see the light of day, on the flipside they should also not be afforded the 'privileges' they seem to get inside, but thats another debate.
Didn't Thomas Hamilton give himself the death penalty?... "The Dunblane massacre was a multiple murder-suicide which occurred at Dunblane Primary School in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. Sixteen children and one adult were killed by the attacker, Thomas Watt Hamilton, before he committed suicide. It remains the deadliest single targeted mass murder of children in the history of the United Kingdom."
Must be Trevor Hamilton from Sion Mills you are thinking of... he killed the woman coming home from Mass a few years ago.
Thats who I meant, the weasily wee cnut.
No objection whatsoever myself to the death penalty for the most horrific crimes, but given the numerous cases of miscarriages of justice over the years, I just do not see how anyone could support it.
There was a very interesting and disturbing article in the New Yorker recently about Cameron Todd Willingham, a man who, it appears, was probably wrongfully convicted and executed for the murder of his children by arson in Texas. Its long, but well worth reading. If too long, wikipedia has a summary of his case.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham)
Quote from: J70 on November 06, 2009, 04:02:57 AM
No objection whatsoever myself to the death penalty for the most horrific crimes, but given the numerous cases of miscarriages of justice over the years, I just do not see how anyone could support it.
There was a very interesting and disturbing article in the New Yorker recently about Cameron Todd Willingham, a man who, it appears, was probably wrongfully convicted and executed for the murder of his children by arson in Texas. Its long, but well worth reading. If too long, wikipedia has a summary of his case.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham)
Wow. That is seriously chilling stuff. A well written article - I started reading it with scepticism, expecting the writer to blur the facts of the case and muddy the waters, but it seems to have been blown out of the water.
On the thread, as someone has said earlier, the death penalty doesnt work as a deterrent. I believe that the use of it is barbaric, and it has no place in a modern, civilised society
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8352735.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8352735.stm)
The yanks show how its done
Strange timing for that executing Doogie, considering its veterans day over here today.
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 11, 2009, 12:34:15 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8352735.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8352735.stm)
The yanks show how its done
I remember his crimes...
Good enough for him.
Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 11, 2009, 12:34:15 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8352735.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8352735.stm)
The yanks show how its done
As terrible as his crimes were, two wrongs don't make a right.
Quote from: Puckoon on November 11, 2009, 04:38:17 PM
Strange timing for that executing Doogie, considering its veterans day over here today.
Didn't know that tbh, yeah it does look a bit 'insensitive' (for want of a better word) given his line of defence then.
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind
I think it should be used within controlled limits.
For the likes of those child abusers and fiddlers etc... well the ultimate punishment for the should be to get their bits whacked off, get neutered like a dog! Same for rapists too!
I know prison is meant to rehabilitate people and all that but if they have no bits they cannot commit/have less desire to commit the crime!
It sounds a tad wicked, we are meant to forgive and all that but there are some evil people on this earth!
Quote from: Declan on November 11, 2009, 04:50:55 PM
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind
Unless there is some sort of eye transplant scheme.....
Gonna agree with the Lady
For ***** like paedos and fiddlers then its the death penalty for sure, the likes of josef fritzell etc should be tortured and then executed
Any time I hear of a case like Jamie Bulger, it makes me think that the death penalty should be called for, especially when you hear how much of a summer camp that "jail" has become .
But at the same time, if I was sitting on a jury and had the choice to either have a man executed or given a life sentence, I know that I couldn't have them executed. There is always that small chance of them being innocent...
Can we bring back flogging?? :P
Why the answer should always be no
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/15/carlos-texas-innocent-man-death
Throw in Cameron Todd Willingham as well, also an example of Texas "justice".
Don't know how anyone can possibly support the use of the death penalty given the flaws in justice systems.
I wonder will the people who are responsible for this man being falsely convicted and put to death be held accountable?
As someone once shouted in the High Court - "Hanging's too good for the like of ye. It's a good kick in the arse ye need."
No
Is it still an SF policy?
People get very excited about paedophiles but white collar crime is grand.
So where would you draw the line? Who lied to Lenihan about the guarantee and sank the country ?
Is that an executable offence?
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2012, 10:47:47 PM
People get very excited about paedophiles but white collar crime is grand.
So where would you draw the line? Who lied to Lenihan about the guarantee and sank the country ?
Is that an executable offence?
What monetary value for white collar crime equates to raping a child? £million? £billion? Who decides?
As my criminology lecturer once said:
Just because we are on the side of the angels, it dosen't mean we should use the methods of the devil.
I would be more in favour of hard manual labour so they repay society back and dont get it easy.
Quote from: Armaghgeddon on May 15, 2012, 11:10:29 PM
As my criminology lecturer once said:
Just because we are on the side of the angels, it dosen't mean we should use the methods of the devil.
I would be more in favour of hard manual labour so they repay society back and dont get it easy.
Aye there is plenty the hoors could be doing. Would have to make sure to respect their human rights though.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 15, 2012, 11:17:33 PM
Quote from: Armaghgeddon on May 15, 2012, 11:10:29 PM
As my criminology lecturer once said:
Just because we are on the side of the angels, it dosen't mean we should use the methods of the devil.
I would be more in favour of hard manual labour so they repay society back and dont get it easy.
Aye there is plenty the hoors could be doing. Would have to make sure to respect their human rights though.
The basic principles of normal society should operate. If you dont work, you dont get money, if you dont get money, you dont eat.
Quote from: Armaghgeddon on May 15, 2012, 11:28:58 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 15, 2012, 11:17:33 PM
Quote from: Armaghgeddon on May 15, 2012, 11:10:29 PM
As my criminology lecturer once said:
Just because we are on the side of the angels, it dosen't mean we should use the methods of the devil.
I would be more in favour of hard manual labour so they repay society back and dont get it easy.
Aye there is plenty the hoors could be doing. Would have to make sure to respect their human rights though.
The basic principles of normal society should operate. If you dont work, you dont get money, if you dont get money, you dont eat.
Again another case of where do you draw the line? What about people with physcial, mental or severe learning disabilities? How about people with addictions which cripple them socially? What about pregnant women? What about single parent families? What about the elderly? What about refugees not yet allowed to work legally?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on May 15, 2012, 11:33:28 PM
Quote from: Armaghgeddon on May 15, 2012, 11:28:58 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 15, 2012, 11:17:33 PM
Quote from: Armaghgeddon on May 15, 2012, 11:10:29 PM
As my criminology lecturer once said:
Just because we are on the side of the angels, it dosen't mean we should use the methods of the devil.
I would be more in favour of hard manual labour so they repay society back and dont get it easy.
Aye there is plenty the hoors could be doing. Would have to make sure to respect their human rights though.
The basic principles of normal society should operate. If you dont work, you dont get money, if you dont get money, you dont eat.
Again another case of where do you draw the line? What about people with physcial, mental or severe learning disabilities? How about people with addictions which cripple them socially? What about pregnant women? What about single parent families? What about the elderly? What about refugees not yet allowed to work legally?
Severe learning disabilities does not stop someone from doing manual labour.
It is Based on your stance on the use of prisons; is it a place for punishment or a place of rehabilitation so they can be accepted into society again. If you have an addiction help should be (and I think it is) given and then they can work. Pregnant women can work after 9 months can't they? Elderly could do other work that isnt hard manual labour and refugees should be deported.
Is that you Enoch?
Quote from: Alco Pup on November 11, 2009, 05:48:53 PM
Any time I hear of a case like Jamie Bulger, it makes me think that the death penalty should be called for, especially when you hear how much of a summer camp that "jail" has become .
But at the same time, if I was sitting on a jury and had the choice to either have a man executed or given a life sentence, I know that I couldn't have them executed. There is always that small chance of them being innocent...
Can we bring back flogging?? :P
So you would advocate the execution of 12 year olds?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
Is there any level of torture you wouldn't tolerate?
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.
I have always been against the death penalty, due to the fact that so many innocent people have gone to their deaths in a horrible inhumane way. Killing someone to teach them that killing someone is wrong, is just wrong.
When the Birmingham 6 were wrongly convicted, the judge wished the death penalty was still in place as he would have had no bother handing it down to the 6 Irish men.
Quote from: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
Is there any level of torture you wouldn't tolerate?
Just wondering. With a botched up execution would the medics be trying to save the mans life or finish him off?
Quote from: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
Is there any level of torture you wouldn't tolerate?
Is there any level of disgusting behaviour that the Yanks could descend to?
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 12:52:58 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.
So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?
Did you know that in order to Keep Prisons going they need to reach Quotas. In other words prisons in the USA are private for profit companies funded by the state. Prison Quotas have to be met to make profit. So its a case of pack them in they are worth money!
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/03/18/private-prisons-holder-minorities-inmates-column/6580077/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/03/18/private-prisons-holder-minorities-inmates-column/6580077/)
Quote from: From the Bunker on April 30, 2014, 01:01:28 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
Is there any level of torture you wouldn't tolerate?
Just wondering. With a botched up execution would the medics be trying to save the mans life or finish him off?
They went for the kill even though it had gone wrong. Shortly after the 1st injection went wrong, Clayton Lockett started having a siezure. Then, out of the kindness of their heart, they pulled the curtain so the spectators there to witness murder didn't have to witness any more suffering. The authorities then administered the remaining 2 lethal injections.
Warner's lawyer Madeline Cohen had argued against the new injection combination.
She said the "experimental new drug protocol, including a paralytic" would make "it impossible to know whether the executions will comport with the Eighth Amendment's ban on cruel and unusual suffering".
"Despite repeated requests by counsel, the state has refused, again and again, to provide information about the source, purity, testing and efficacy of the drugs to be used.
"It's not even known whether the drugs were purchased legally."
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 12:52:58 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.
So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?
Dixie, whats your irish nationalism mindset got to do with a 19year old innocent female brutally beaten, held captive, raped & buried alive. Her parents released the below statement where they are thankful that the killer rapist has been executed. That's good enough for me.
THE STATEMENT OF SUSIE AND STEVE NEIMAN
God blessed us with our precious daughter, Stephanie for 19 years. Stephanie loved children.
She worked in Vacation Bible School and always helped with our Church nativity scenes. She was the joy of our life. We are thankful this day has finally arrived and justice will finally be served.
Susie and Steve Neiman, 4-29-14
When you get into a debate like this people automatically wheel out the arguments about what if this person or that one had the death penalty applied. Life isn't that black and white and each case is unique and has it's own specific set of circumstances. I wouldn't advocate the death penalty in most cases where it is currently applied however when it comes to crimes like that committed by a sc**bag like Charles Warner I think the death penalty is fully deserved if it's proven beyond any doubt that they committed that crime. What he did to an 11 month old child is utterly sickening. If you can stomach it imagine being that 11 month child for a split second and then ask yourself why should someone who can do that to a child deserve the right to live?
Quote from: Rossfan on April 30, 2014, 01:03:34 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
Is there any level of torture you wouldn't tolerate?
Is there any level of disgusting behaviour that the Yanks could descend to?
Well, 'the Yanks' seem to be showing a lot of scruples about what happened. Which is more than can be said for some of the posters here.
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 01:31:50 PM
When you get into a debate like this people automatically wheel out the arguments about what if this person or that one had the death penalty applied. Life isn't that black and white and each case is unique and has it's own specific set of circumstances. I wouldn't advocate the death penalty in most cases where it is currently applied however when it comes to crimes like that committed by a sc**bag like Charles Warner I think the death penalty is fully deserved if it's proven beyond any doubt that they committed that crime. What he did to an 11 month old child is utterly sickening. If you can stomach it imagine being that 11 month child for a split second and then ask yourself why should someone who can do that to a child deserve the right to live?
Is there any level of
torture punishment you wouldn't tolerate?
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
I read about this in Time magazine and was actually going to post it, but you beat me too it.
For me, the whole affair is another good reason to abolish capital punishment. The alternative should be a mixture of lock-up, community service and perhaps a limited amount of public flogging by the victim's family.
Very hard to have sympathy with this guy, if he is guilty of what he has been convicted of, however my confidence in the US justice system is fairly low, I'd be skeptical of some of the guilty verdicts handed down, and we've all seen, sometimes years later, that inmates have been removed off death row for reasons related to unsafe or downright bad convictions.
Is society willing to execute innocent men and women, in order that guilty ones also get the chop? I'd be uncomfortable with that myself to be honest.
Having said that, whoever did actually kill this girl, buried alive for fucks sake, or the poor 11 month old deserves no sympathy and probably everything they get.
Quote from: Orior on April 30, 2014, 01:42:27 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
I read about this in Time magazine and was actually going to post it, but you beat me too it.
For me, the whole affair is another good reason to abolish capital punishment. The alternative should be a mixture of lock-up, community service and perhaps a limited amount of public flogging by the victim's family.
I can't read that without thinking of Alan Rickman in Die Hard...
This case shouldn't change anyone's mind on the death penalty, at least not on its own. Those against the death penalty have to factor in letting truly evil pieces of filth live when the families of their victims have to endure their own death sentence. Those in favour of the death penalty have to accept that innocent people are going to get it no matter how hard you try to avoid it. However, what this case should do is force proponents of the death penalty to consider what it actually involves. If you truly believe that inflicting appalling levels of pain on someone because they're bad is okay, where do you draw the line? If the state introduces Saw-style executions, would you be okay with that?
If out of a 100 death sentences, 99 of those executed were guilty, it still wouldn't be worth it to me. That 1 innocent person executed makes you (the system behind the death sentence) just as bad as the other 99.
Quote from: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 01:34:00 PM
Is there any level of torture punishment you wouldn't tolerate?
When it comes to a sick & disgusting crime like this against a child and there is absolutely 100% no doubt in any way shape or form about who did it, then no.
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 12:52:58 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.
So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?
Dixie, whats your irish nationalism mindset got to do with a 19year old innocent female brutally beaten, held captive, raped & buried alive. Her parents released the below statement where they are thankful that the killer rapist has been executed. That's good enough for me.
THE STATEMENT OF SUSIE AND STEVE NEIMAN
God blessed us with our precious daughter, Stephanie for 19 years. Stephanie loved children.
She worked in Vacation Bible School and always helped with our Church nativity scenes. She was the joy of our life. We are thankful this day has finally arrived and justice will finally be served.
Susie and Steve Neiman, 4-29-14
I'm just pointing out that murder is murder, no matter where in the world it is. Horrific murders took place here. Should the culprits here have been given the death penalty?
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 02:08:55 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 01:34:00 PM
Is there any level of torture punishment you wouldn't tolerate?
When it comes to a sick & disgusting crime like this against a child and there is absolutely 100% no doubt in any way shape or form about who did it, then no.
Okay, fair enough.
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 01:31:50 PM
When you get into a debate like this people automatically wheel out the arguments about what if this person or that one had the death penalty applied. Life isn't that black and white and each case is unique and has it's own specific set of circumstances. I wouldn't advocate the death penalty in most cases where it is currently applied however when it comes to crimes like that committed by a sc**bag like Charles Warner I think the death penalty is fully deserved if it's proven beyond any doubt that they committed that crime. What he did to an 11 month old child is utterly sickening. If you can stomach it imagine being that 11 month child for a split second and then ask yourself why should someone who can do that to a child deserve the right to live?
Unfortunately, that is not the case a lot of the time. Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, lab analyses can be botched or corrupt, cops and DAs can be corrupt, lawyers can be incompetent or corrupt, minorities are far more likely to receive a death sentence etc. etc. I saw a headline the other day that stated that as many as 25% of death penalty convictions are now under suspicion. It needs to be abolished.
Edit - 1 in 25 death row inmates innocent - doesn't change my point.
Quote from: J70 on April 30, 2014, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 01:31:50 PM
When you get into a debate like this people automatically wheel out the arguments about what if this person or that one had the death penalty applied. Life isn't that black and white and each case is unique and has it's own specific set of circumstances. I wouldn't advocate the death penalty in most cases where it is currently applied however when it comes to crimes like that committed by a sc**bag like Charles Warner I think the death penalty is fully deserved if it's proven beyond any doubt that they committed that crime. What he did to an 11 month old child is utterly sickening. If you can stomach it imagine being that 11 month child for a split second and then ask yourself why should someone who can do that to a child deserve the right to live?
Unfortunately, that is not the case a lot of the time. Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, lab analyses can be botched or corrupt, cops and DAs can be corrupt, lawyers can be incompetent or corrupt, minorities are far more likely to receive a death sentence etc. etc. I saw a headline the other day that stated that as many as 25% of death penalty convictions are now under suspicion. It needs to be abolished.
http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~bigopp/witness.html (http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~bigopp/witness.html)
HUNDREDS of people watched the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 near Kennedy International Airport in New York on Nov. 12, and in the course of 93 seconds they apparently saw hundreds of different things.
According to the National Transportation Safety Board, which announced this month that it had gathered 349 eyewitness accounts through interviews or written statements, 52 percent said they saw a fire while the plane was in the air. The largest number (22 percent) said the fire was in the fuselage, but a majority cited other locations, including the left engine, the right engine, the left wing, the right wing or an unspecified engine or wing.
Nearly one of five witnesses said they saw the plane make a right turn; an equal number said it was a left turn. Nearly 60 percent said they saw something fall off the plane; of these, 13 percent said it was a wing. (In fact, it was the vertical portion of the tail.)
The investigators say there is no evidence in the wreckage or on the flight recorders of an in-flight fire or explosion. A plane breaking up in flight, as this one did, might in its last moments produce flashes of fire from engines ripping loose, but the idea that the plane caught fire is a trick of memory, they say.
None of this is surprising, said Dr. Charles R. Honts, a professor of psychology at Boise State University and the editor of the Journal of Credibility Assessment and Witness Psychology. "Eyewitness memory is reconstructive," said Dr. Honts, who is not associated with the safety board. "The biggest mistake you can make is to think about a memory like it's a videotape; there's not a permanent record there."
93-DY-SAM: I totally agree. What these guys both did was a vile act and as far as I am concerned these bastards handed in their "civil rights" license when they did that crime. It is karma that he died the way he did, the other sc**bag should've got the same. What is also sickening is the long line of clowns lining up to bemoan the poor creatur and the terrible american system. I wonder if it was their 11 month old child that was raped and murdered or their sister that was raped and buried alive would they be so understanding of the perpetrator. The yanks are right on this one. Who the hell wants to pay to keep these types of people locked up or try to rehabilitate them, there is no way back to civilised society from such acts.
I am not in favour of the death penalty for all murder cases but in vile extreme cases like this then absolutely they deserve to die roaring.
And what if DNA evidence comes up in 5 years time that clears one or both of them? And to clarify If they are guilty I have no sympathy for them at all, but how can ever be 100% sure unless they admit it themselves and the evidence backs up the confession?
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 02:15:09 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 12:52:58 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.
So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?
Dixie, whats your irish nationalism mindset got to do with a 19year old innocent female brutally beaten, held captive, raped & buried alive. Her parents released the below statement where they are thankful that the killer rapist has been executed. That's good enough for me.
THE STATEMENT OF SUSIE AND STEVE NEIMAN
God blessed us with our precious daughter, Stephanie for 19 years. Stephanie loved children.
She worked in Vacation Bible School and always helped with our Church nativity scenes. She was the joy of our life. We are thankful this day has finally arrived and justice will finally be served.
Susie and Steve Neiman, 4-29-14
I'm just pointing out that murder is murder, no matter where in the world it is. Horrific murders took place here. Should the culprits here have been given the death penalty?
What would you do with them Dixie if not put them out of their misery. Rehabilitate them? Leave them in solitary 24/7 for the rest of their lives (surely another form of torture). Tell me what do you do with people as vile and disgusting as these. I'd really love to know what the humane alternative is.
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 30, 2014, 02:27:13 PM
And what if DNA evidence comes up in 5 years time that clears one or both of them? And to clarify If they are guilty I have no sympathy for them at all, but how can ever be 100% sure unless they admit it themselves and the evidence backs up the confession?
If you have eye witness account, forensic, DNA and everything says its this guy then you can be as close to 100% certain as matters. Its not like everyone who murders in the US gets executed is it?
Not everyone who murders in the US gets executed. And not everyone who gets executed has murdered either.
http://www.criminaljusticedegreesguide.com/features/10-infamous-cases-of-wrongful-execution.html
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 02:32:25 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 30, 2014, 02:27:13 PM
And what if DNA evidence comes up in 5 years time that clears one or both of them? And to clarify If they are guilty I have no sympathy for them at all, but how can ever be 100% sure unless they admit it themselves and the evidence backs up the confession?
If you have eye witness account, forensic, DNA and everything says its this guy then you can be as close to 100% certain as matters. Its not like everyone who murders in the US gets executed is it?
And how do you guarantee there isn't some corruption at work in the investigation or prosecution? Its not exactly unprecedented.
I would be of the same mind that I have no objection to the execution of the vilest, cold-blooded murderers, but I have little faith in the honesty and impartiality and competence of the justice system. At least when the person is alive, there is a possibility of reprieve.
I assume the people who support the death penalty with such conviction would not object to making a principled contribution to furthering their cause. I have no doubt they would be willing to go on a panel from whom a victim is chosen to be executed in partial recompense to the family of every innocent wrongly executed. (It would be done humanely, of course - we'll spare them the horrors they so devoutly desire for others.)
If you believe in 'an eye for an eye', you can hardly object to an equally reasonable principle. I wouldn't expect that people who assume the right to decide on the disposal of the lives of others will believe it unfair that others should have the right to decide the disposal of theirs.
We judge people in Court based on 'human' evidence. By that I mean everything, be it DNA, forensics, eye witnesses etc. all have a 'human' element. There can always be errors, there can always be the risk of bias/corruption. People who commit horrible crimes should be punished but we are supposed to be 'enlightened' so what gives us the right to act as the final judges on their lives. The death penalty is wrong, full stop. There are too many variables that can impact on a guilty verdict.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 02:25:37 PM
93-DY-SAM: I totally agree. What these guys both did was a vile act and as far as I am concerned these b**tards handed in their "civil rights" license when they did that crime. It is karma that he died the way he did, the other sc**bag should've got the same. What is also sickening is the long line of clowns lining up to bemoan the poor creatur and the terrible american system. I wonder if it was their 11 month old child that was raped and murdered or their sister that was raped and buried alive would they be so understanding of the perpetrator. The yanks are right on this one. Who the hell wants to pay to keep these types of people locked up or try to rehabilitate them, there is no way back to civilised society from such acts.
I am not in favour of the death penalty for all murder cases but in vile extreme cases like this then absolutely they deserve to die roaring.
Spot on.
Quote from: EC Unique on April 30, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 02:25:37 PM
93-DY-SAM: I totally agree. What these guys both did was a vile act and as far as I am concerned these b**tards handed in their "civil rights" license when they did that crime. It is karma that he died the way he did, the other sc**bag should've got the same. What is also sickening is the long line of clowns lining up to bemoan the poor creatur and the terrible american system. I wonder if it was their 11 month old child that was raped and murdered or their sister that was raped and buried alive would they be so understanding of the perpetrator. The yanks are right on this one. Who the hell wants to pay to keep these types of people locked up or try to rehabilitate them, there is no way back to civilised society from such acts.
I am not in favour of the death penalty for all murder cases but in vile extreme cases like this then absolutely they deserve to die roaring.
Spot on.
How much roaring would you like to hear lads? We need to know what your limits are. Would you like to be instrumental in producing the roaring, or would it suffice just to be there to hear it? Any suggestions for the most inventive ways to make them roar?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 02:29:24 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 02:15:09 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 12:52:58 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.
So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?
Dixie, whats your irish nationalism mindset got to do with a 19year old innocent female brutally beaten, held captive, raped & buried alive. Her parents released the below statement where they are thankful that the killer rapist has been executed. That's good enough for me.
THE STATEMENT OF SUSIE AND STEVE NEIMAN
God blessed us with our precious daughter, Stephanie for 19 years. Stephanie loved children.
She worked in Vacation Bible School and always helped with our Church nativity scenes. She was the joy of our life. We are thankful this day has finally arrived and justice will finally be served.
Susie and Steve Neiman, 4-29-14
I'm just pointing out that murder is murder, no matter where in the world it is. Horrific murders took place here. Should the culprits here have been given the death penalty?
What would you do with them Dixie if not put them out of their misery. Rehabilitate them? Leave them in solitary 24/7 for the rest of their lives (surely another form of torture). Tell me what do you do with people as vile and disgusting as these. I'd really love to know what the humane alternative is.
As far as i'm concerned, lock them up. To me, no single person walking this earth has the right to decide if a person is to be executed. As I said earlier, killing someone to teach them that killing is wrong, is wrong.
What I find really sad in this discussion is how people are appalled at the brutal murders that took place, and at the same time, are happy with this brutal inhumane execution in front of a crowd.
This man died a horrible death over 43 minutes, and if people think thats fine and justice was served, then what does it say about their moral compass? Have we become so accustomed to murder that we can pick and chose which is a bad murder and which one is good?
For those of you who think this murder was a good murder, would you have sat in that audience and after witnessing his inhumane death, would you have walked away and said he deserved it?
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 02:29:24 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 02:15:09 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: God14 on April 30, 2014, 12:52:58 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0430/613896-oklahoma-execution/
Just curious if anyone has any sympathy for him? The only shame to me is that the other sick b*****d didn't meet the same or a worse fate.
No sympathy at all. Poetic justice.
So, using that logic, you would have had no problem with hundreds of Irish men been executed for their convictions of murder down the years? Would that have been poetic justice?
Dixie, whats your irish nationalism mindset got to do with a 19year old innocent female brutally beaten, held captive, raped & buried alive. Her parents released the below statement where they are thankful that the killer rapist has been executed. That's good enough for me.
THE STATEMENT OF SUSIE AND STEVE NEIMAN
God blessed us with our precious daughter, Stephanie for 19 years. Stephanie loved children.
She worked in Vacation Bible School and always helped with our Church nativity scenes. She was the joy of our life. We are thankful this day has finally arrived and justice will finally be served.
Susie and Steve Neiman, 4-29-14
I'm just pointing out that murder is murder, no matter where in the world it is. Horrific murders took place here. Should the culprits here have been given the death penalty?
What would you do with them Dixie if not put them out of their misery. Rehabilitate them? Leave them in solitary 24/7 for the rest of their lives (surely another form of torture). Tell me what do you do with people as vile and disgusting as these. I'd really love to know what the humane alternative is.
As far as i'm concerned, lock them up. To me, no single person walking this earth has the right to decide if a person is to be executed. As I said earlier, killing someone to teach them that killing is wrong, is wrong.
What I find really sad in this discussion is how people are appalled at the brutal murders that took place, and at the same time, are happy with this brutal inhumane execution in front of a crowd.
This man died a horrible death over 43 minutes, and if people think thats fine and justice was served, then what does it say about their moral compass? Have we become so accustomed to murder that we can pick and chose which is a bad murder and which one is good?
For those of you who think this murder was a good murder, would you have sat in that audience and after witnessing his inhumane death, would you have walked away and said he deserved it?
Spot on
What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 03:07:05 PM
What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?
As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.
So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?
To answer your question, my conviction is as stated by give her dixie - to kill as a demonstration that killing is wrong is self-evidently not only barbaric, but ridiculous as well. The only reasonable penalty a civilised society can impose is deprivation of liberty and some level of recompense, say in the form of forced work for those able to perform it as well as confiscation of material and financial assets.
In Iran where hundreds of people every year die due to the death penalty, this story emerged nearly 2 weeks ago. This is an incredible example of forgiveness and an act of humanity.
Iranian killer's execution halted at last minute by victim's parents
Convict had noose around his neck when victim's mother approached, slapped him in the face and spared his life. Balal's mother hugged the grieving mother of the man her son had killed. The two women sobbed in each other's arms – one because she had lost her son, the other because hers had been saved.
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/4/16/1397670869717/Balal-hanging-009.jpg)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/iran-parents-halt-killer-execution
Quote from: give her dixie on April 30, 2014, 03:32:16 PM
In Iran where hundreds of people every year die due to the death penalty, this story emerged nearly 2 weeks ago. This is an incredible example of forgiveness and an act of humanity.
Iranian killer's execution halted at last minute by victim's parents
Convict had noose around his neck when victim's mother approached, slapped him in the face and spared his life. Balal's mother hugged the grieving mother of the man her son had killed. The two women sobbed in each other's arms – one because she had lost her son, the other because hers had been saved.
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/4/16/1397670869717/Balal-hanging-009.jpg)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/iran-parents-halt-killer-execution
This is a common enough thing to happen in these cases in Iran, the victims family have the final choice in most cases as to whether the execution is carried out or they can chose to pardon the prisoner.
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 03:07:05 PM
What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?
As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.
Exactly that for me - it is impossible to be "100% sure" about a murder. As such, I find it hard to believe that anyone would be in favour of the death penalty.
On these cases in particular, does anybody on here actually know anything of the details of the cases? Or just that two terrible crimes were committed and these two guys were convicted?
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:15:39 PM
As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.
So going on that are you saying that there is the possibly of doubt in every single criminal conviction for child rape/murder ever handed down and we can't say with 100% certainty that any one person committed the crime?
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:15:39 PM
So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?
None what so ever. How many way's do you want me to phrase it - I believe it's acceptable only where there is no doubt in any way shape or form.
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:15:39 PM
To answer your question, my conviction is as stated by give her dixie - to kill as a demonstration that killing is wrong is self-evidently not only barbaric, but ridiculous as well. The only reasonable penalty a civilised society can impose is deprivation of liberty and some level of recompense, say in the form of forced work for those able to perform it as well as confiscation of material and financial assets.
I can understand your convictions but no one has suggested what is a suitable level of punishment for these most violent and vile crimes.
Fair play to that mother in Iran but if it was a child of yours could you walk up to the likes of a Charles Warner and said I forgive you? I know I couldn't. If that makes me a bad person or someone who is as bad as him in your book then that's the way it is.
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 03:07:05 PM
What punishment for child/baby rapists and killers (again I emphasise where there is absolutely no doubt in any way shape of form who did it) would those that oppose the death penalty (Edit: in those circumstances) like to see replace it?
As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.
So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?
To answer your question, my conviction is as stated by give her dixie - to kill as a demonstration that killing is wrong is self-evidently not only barbaric, but ridiculous as well. The only reasonable penalty a civilised society can impose is deprivation of liberty and some level of recompense, say in the form of forced work for those able to perform it as well as confiscation of material and financial assets.
An 11 month old baby girl raped and murdered...... That is barbaric.
Putting the man to death years later when he has had ample chance to prove his innocence and or appeal his sentence is not wrong or ridiculous. (In my opinion of course).
I watched a few documentaries lately about the American death row. Currently running on BBC. There were some of the inmates that admitted their horrible crimes and agreed that they deserved to die. What about them?
I can definitely see a case for and against the death penalty but in cases like these I have no sympathy what so ever for these c***ts. I think they should bring back hanging though. Over in a second and more humane than these unreliable injections.
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 04:03:24 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:15:39 PM
As far as I know, there's no legal concept of "absolutely no doubt". The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". By definition, that accommodates some proportion of cases where there is doubt and therefore some proportion of cases where the executed person is innocent of the crime.
So going on that are you saying that there is the possibly of doubt in every single criminal conviction for child rape/murder ever handed down and we can't say with 100% certainty that any one person committed the crime?
There is the possibility of doubt in every single criminal conviction, but that's not the relevant point. There is the probability of doubt in some percentage of cases, therefore some percentage of people executed are innocent. What percentage of wrongful executions is acceptable in order to ensure that all the actually guilty get executed?
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 04:03:24 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:15:39 PM
So, to turn your question around, what level of wrongful execution is acceptable to ensure that all child/baby rapists and killers get executed?
None what so ever. How many way's do you want me to phrase it - I believe it's acceptable only where there is no doubt in any way shape or form.
But haven't we established that the law does not establish guilt with "no doubt in any way shape or form"? The standard it applies is "beyond reasonable doubt". Is this a high enough standard to ensure no innocent people are executed? Clearly not. Does that matter?
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on April 30, 2014, 04:03:24 PM
How many way's do you want me to phrase it - I believe it's acceptable only where there is no doubt in any way shape or form.
If you read those 10 cases of dubious executions posted recently on the thread, you will see that in most of them there was no doubt at the time they were guilty due to witness statements and/or forensic evidence.
But since then either because it turns out the witnesses were lying or just mistaken and/or the foresnic evidence turned out to be not as reliable as thought at the time due to advances in technology, there is now considerable doubt around all those cases.
I dont believe its acceptable regardless of guilt.
Its wrong to kill, so if you kill anyone, we'll kill you. How does that work?
And the whole 'arguments' of 'What if it was your child?' etc are plain stupid. Whats the point of a societal justice system if its based on how'd you'd feel if you were personally involved? Thats not justice, its revenge.
I presume it's not meant to be an eye for an eye, or any of that sort of stuff, in Western Society at least. I believe it is supposed to be a deterrent to others, but I'm not so sure that's been a roaring success either, given murder rates in the US. Actually I must look up the murder rate per capita in states where Capital Punishment is allowed, versus where it is banned.
I don't think it's trying to show the offender that killing is wrong by killing them. That would be sort of self defeating I think :)
Is it ok to put people in jail for the rest of their life, put them on 24/7 lockdown and possibly solitary, brand them a murderer and tell the victims family that the right man is in jail when we in fact it appears we cannot be 100% certain that he is guilty. Is that ok on the moral compass?? For me there is not a lot of difference between executing someone and doing the above to them. In fact the main difference is that I have to pay to keep child rapists and murderers in prison in this country at a cost of 10's of thousands a year. That money should be used to support victims and their families.
If the guy admits he has done the crime is it still immoral to execute him given that it rules out the chance he is innocent?
What punishment fits the cases of these two particular individuals?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 04:48:43 PM
Is it ok to put people in jail for the rest of their life, put them on 24/7 lockdown and possibly solitary, brand them a murderer and tell the victims family that the right man is in jail when we in fact it appears we cannot be 100% certain that he is guilty. Is that ok on the moral compass?? For me there is not a lot of difference between executing someone and doing the above to them. In fact the main difference is that I have to pay to keep child rapists and murderers in prison in this country at a cost of 10's of thousands a year. That money should be used to support victims and their families.
If the guy admits he has done the crime is it still immoral to execute him given that it rules out the chance he is innocent?
One main difference myles, is that if you find out a miscarriage of justice has occurred you can at least apologise, compensate and let the lad out. Hard to do that when you've fried him on chair or injected him with window cleaner.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 04:48:43 PM
Is it ok to put people in jail for the rest of their life, put them on 24/7 lockdown and possibly solitary, brand them a murderer and tell the victims family that the right man is in jail when we in fact it appears we cannot be 100% certain that he is guilty. Is that ok on the moral compass?? For me there is not a lot of difference between executing someone and doing the above to them. In fact the main difference is that I have to pay to keep child rapists and murderers in prison in this country at a cost of 10's of thousands a year. That money should be used to support victims and their families.
If the guy admits he has done the crime is it still immoral to execute him given that it rules out the chance he is innocent?
Are you serious?
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 05:09:13 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 04:48:43 PM
Is it ok to put people in jail for the rest of their life, put them on 24/7 lockdown and possibly solitary, brand them a murderer and tell the victims family that the right man is in jail when we in fact it appears we cannot be 100% certain that he is guilty. Is that ok on the moral compass?? For me there is not a lot of difference between executing someone and doing the above to them. In fact the main difference is that I have to pay to keep child rapists and murderers in prison in this country at a cost of 10's of thousands a year. That money should be used to support victims and their families.
If the guy admits he has done the crime is it still immoral to execute him given that it rules out the chance he is innocent?
Are you serious?
Given a choice of being locked up for life in solitary or executed I think I'd opt for the later.
On the No camp there appears to be two arguments.
1- You can never be 100% sure you have the right person - miscarriage of justice etc.
2 - Its just wrong to take a life.
I'd have some sympathy on No 1 but there are cases where there is no doubt and there ought to be a stipulation in law that recognises that. For example those two loonies that chopped up that british soldier in broad daylight in England were caught on numerous videos and even went onto Youtube. There is no doubt they murdered that guy, reasonable doubt is not required.
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
State execution is neither of those things.
I listened to the radio yesterday and heard how this man who was being executed but where it went wrong and died of a heart attack had committed aggravated murder which qualifies the perpetrator for the death penalty.
The commentators told how he had taken a young girl and buried her alive in a shallow grave where she then died a horrible death.
This man eventually died a horrible death.
I couldn't help but think that he got what he deserved but I was probably wrong in thinking that ?.
Quote from: orangeman on May 01, 2014, 10:41:42 AM
I listened to the radio yesterday and heard how this man who was being executed but where it went wrong and died of a heart attack had committed aggravated murder which qualifies the perpetrator for the death penalty.
The commentators told how he had taken a young girl and buried her alive in a shallow grave where she then died a horrible death.
This man eventually died a horrible death.
I couldn't help but think that he got what he deserved but I was probably wrong in thinking that ?.
it's very easy to think like that, the poor girl must have been in terrible suffering. Yet I feel it's wrong to take a life regardless of what they've done. Let them serve their punishment for the rest of their days in this world
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 01, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
State execution is neither of those things.
I wasnt saying it was. I was making the case that people who say in a black and white way "its wrong to kill another person no matter what" are full of shit. In certain circumstances it is necessary and I just gave a couple of examples. If you can accept there are some times that it is necessary then perhaps you can begin to accept that a man who rapes and murders an 11 month old baby is a danger to society, a financial drain on society, will never be rehabilitated and will never contribute to society. Execution is perfectly reasonable in this case.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
I see what you mean Myles but those cases are "kill or be killed" whereas execution is done in the cold light of day.
I wonder what most genuinely guilty offenders feel about it - would they rather spend 50 odd years in jail with no hope of release? Or to just get it over and done with? If the latter, then the death penalty actually gives them an easy way out.
No, I wouldn't be in favour of the death penalty at all, because of the risks to innocent people convicted wrongly. Having a death penalty at all leaves you open to that happening.
In the London lad's case, I wouldn't be sorry for him no matter what happened him, but I'd think hard labour, and imprisonment for the rest of his life would be a fitting punishment. Make him contribute to society as best he can from behind bars, and never let him out.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
Death is an easy way out for him.
Quote from: muppet on May 01, 2014, 11:51:25 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
Death is an easy way out for him.
He wants to be a martyr so don't make it easy for him.
As for the death penalty its hard to say that some don't deserve it and are just plain evil with no redeeming qualities, but as can be seen from the American legal system, if you can't afford a good lawyer you could be getting some innocent people sitting in electric chairs due to the fact that they couldn't afford decent legal representation and that's wrong too.
Is that a risk we take, I'm not so sure.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 01, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
State execution is neither of those things.
I wasnt saying it was. I was making the case that people who say in a black and white way "its wrong to kill another person no matter what" are full of shit. In certain circumstances it is necessary and I just gave a couple of examples. If you can accept there are some times that it is necessary then perhaps you can begin to accept that a man who rapes and murders an 11 month old baby is a danger to society, a financial drain on society, will never be rehabilitated and will never contribute to society. Execution is perfectly reasonable in this case.
You should look into it more. It costs much more to execute a prisoner than life in prison.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
What about the guy in London sending in the jets and killing innocent 'collateral damage' afghans?
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 01, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
State execution is neither of those things.
I wasnt saying it was. I was making the case that people who say in a black and white way "its wrong to kill another person no matter what" are full of shit. In certain circumstances it is necessary and I just gave a couple of examples. If you can accept there are some times that it is necessary then perhaps you can begin to accept that a man who rapes and murders an 11 month old baby is a danger to society, a financial drain on society, will never be rehabilitated and will never contribute to society. Execution is perfectly reasonable in this case.
You should look into it more. It costs much more to execute a prisoner than life in prison.
Do you really believe it costs more to execute someone than pay for their keep for 30 years. Think about it! The only possible reason for any such statistic is the fact that people are kept on death row for years on appeals and further appeals - i.e. an inefficient system for carrying out the execution.
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
What about the guy in London sending in the jets and killing innocent 'collateral damage' afghans?
What about, what about, what about........
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
What about the guy in London sending in the jets and killing innocent 'collateral damage' afghans?
What about, what about, what about........
Em...
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 04:30:29 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
What about the guy in London sending in the jets and killing innocent 'collateral damage' afghans?
What about, what about, what about........
Em...
;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 04:28:23 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 01, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
State execution is neither of those things.
I wasnt saying it was. I was making the case that people who say in a black and white way "its wrong to kill another person no matter what" are full of shit. In certain circumstances it is necessary and I just gave a couple of examples. If you can accept there are some times that it is necessary then perhaps you can begin to accept that a man who rapes and murders an 11 month old baby is a danger to society, a financial drain on society, will never be rehabilitated and will never contribute to society. Execution is perfectly reasonable in this case.
You should look into it more. It costs much more to execute a prisoner than life in prison.
Do you really believe it costs more to execute someone than pay for their keep for 30 years. Think about it! The only possible reason for any such statistic is the fact that people are kept on death row for years on appeals and further appeals - i.e. an inefficient system for carrying out the execution.
:D So you'd deny them the appeals? Its reassuring that we're on opposite sides of this argument.
Quote from: muppet on May 01, 2014, 04:31:21 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 04:30:29 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
What about the guy in London sending in the jets and killing innocent 'collateral damage' afghans?
What about, what about, what about........
Em...
;D ;D ;D ;D
The guy in London is an example of how you can be 100% sure a person committed a crime. Bringing Tony Blair into it is a whole other story, I'm sure there is a thread somewhere with 100 pages on it.
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 04:58:57 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 04:28:23 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 01, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
State execution is neither of those things.
I wasnt saying it was. I was making the case that people who say in a black and white way "its wrong to kill another person no matter what" are full of shit. In certain circumstances it is necessary and I just gave a couple of examples. If you can accept there are some times that it is necessary then perhaps you can begin to accept that a man who rapes and murders an 11 month old baby is a danger to society, a financial drain on society, will never be rehabilitated and will never contribute to society. Execution is perfectly reasonable in this case.
You should look into it more. It costs much more to execute a prisoner than life in prison.
Do you really believe it costs more to execute someone than pay for their keep for 30 years. Think about it! The only possible reason for any such statistic is the fact that people are kept on death row for years on appeals and further appeals - i.e. an inefficient system for carrying out the execution.
:D So you'd deny them the appeals? Its reassuring that we're on opposite sides of this argument.
No, but appeals would be heard quickly and not straggle on and on until an election comes up like what happens in the US. So you accept that it is not more expensive then?
I'm confused. Does the proximity of an election speed up or slow down the appeals process in the US?
In fry 'em states like Texas or Florida an upcoming election for state governor can see a spate of executions. I'm tough on crime y'all.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 06:06:29 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 04:58:57 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 04:28:23 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 01, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 30, 2014, 05:35:13 PM
No 2 is just waffle. Someone breaks into your house to kill your family is it wrong to kill them in self defense. Is it wrong to kill the aggressor that invades your country. There are times that it is neccessary to take a life and I believe that any one of us would do it if put in particular circumstances.
State execution is neither of those things.
I wasnt saying it was. I was making the case that people who say in a black and white way "its wrong to kill another person no matter what" are full of shit. In certain circumstances it is necessary and I just gave a couple of examples. If you can accept there are some times that it is necessary then perhaps you can begin to accept that a man who rapes and murders an 11 month old baby is a danger to society, a financial drain on society, will never be rehabilitated and will never contribute to society. Execution is perfectly reasonable in this case.
You should look into it more. It costs much more to execute a prisoner than life in prison.
Do you really believe it costs more to execute someone than pay for their keep for 30 years. Think about it! The only possible reason for any such statistic is the fact that people are kept on death row for years on appeals and further appeals - i.e. an inefficient system for carrying out the execution.
:D So you'd deny them the appeals? Its reassuring that we're on opposite sides of this argument.
No, but appeals would be heard quickly and not straggle on and on until an election comes up like what happens in the US. So you accept that it is not more expensive then?
What? Can you read? And subsequently process what you have read? If so, could you explain that leap for me?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 06:05:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 01, 2014, 04:31:21 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 04:30:29 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 01, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 01, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 01, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
As I said, I have no sympathy for this fella if he committed the crime. But having no sympathy for him is not the same as advocating a penalty which may be inhumane, and is certainly responsible for innocent people being executed.
What about the guy in London with the cleaver hacking of a guys head on the street in the name of some God. There is no doubt in that case that he is guilty, would you be against the death penalty for him?
What about the guy in London sending in the jets and killing innocent 'collateral damage' afghans?
What about, what about, what about........
Em...
;D ;D ;D ;D
The guy in London is an example of how you can be 100% sure a person committed a crime. Bringing Tony Blair into it is a whole other story, I'm sure there is a thread somewhere with 100 pages on it.
Try to think for yourself for a minute. I'm being serious here - just try to forget about what the papers say, what governments say, etc. Forget about law even (these are all things that are set by people with an agenda, we have to realise that sometimes that agenda may not be that honourable), and try to think in terms of justice, and what seems fair.
You chose this e.g., so I'll comment on it. Why is that one soldiers life in England worth more than one life in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or wherever else?
Its a complicated subject, and there are no quick and easy answers; but I know I'd be a lot less comfortable if we were executing people according to an agenda which is morally very dubious.
Two hours to die.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28444667
Florence is an eerie place. I drove past it a few times over there, and you know it's death row in there. Spooky.
As regards this, there are those who suggest that the initial sedative/paralysis drug actually impedes the prisoner from demonstrating pain, so Jan Brewer's comments are potentially facetious.
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 25, 2014, 10:38:04 AM
Two hours to die.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28444667
Some would say not long enough!
I have done a one eighty on this issue, since you cannot ever be certain with 100 percent accuracy that every convicted prisoner is guilty as charged you cannot justify making one single mistake. Tax dollars are not worth the life of a innocent person!
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
I have done a one eighty on this issue, since you cannot ever be certain with 100 percent accuracy that every convicted prisoner is guilty as charged you cannot justify making one single mistake. Tax dollars are not worth the life of a innocent person!
Stew, I got to hand it to you. You are not afraid to look at opinion and facts and re evaluate your position on things.
Fair play.
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 10:33:45 AM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
I have done a one eighty on this issue, since you cannot ever be certain with 100 percent accuracy that every convicted prisoner is guilty as charged you cannot justify making one single mistake. Tax dollars are not worth the life of a innocent person!
Stew, I got to hand it to you. You are not afraid to look at opinion and facts and re evaluate your position on things.
Fair play.
Indeed. It's rare and refreshing.
Quote from: Hardy on July 26, 2014, 11:08:02 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on July 26, 2014, 10:33:45 AM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
I have done a one eighty on this issue, since you cannot ever be certain with 100 percent accuracy that every convicted prisoner is guilty as charged you cannot justify making one single mistake. Tax dollars are not worth the life of a innocent person!
Stew, I got to hand it to you. You are not afraid to look at opinion and facts and re evaluate your position on things.
Fair play.
Indeed. It's rare and refreshing.
I would even go as far to say unprecedented rather than rare!!!
too big a chance of someone possible not guilty but convicted getting the chop, in recent history, cases like the guildford 4 could have ended very badly. but i am for hard time not the Holiday camp johnny Adair and co had in their time in jail
Good man, Stew. All you need now is to switch to the Ogs, though you'd probably see that as a death penalty, but since you now oppose death penalties, maybe now you'd be game for it.
Quote from: Oraisteach on July 26, 2014, 08:10:21 PM
Good man, Stew. All you need now is to switch to the Ogs, though you'd probably see that as a death penalty, but since you now oppose death penalties, maybe now you'd be game for it.
I would stick the needle in Me own arm orais, before I would join the ogs! Made me laugh that.
This guy ended the life of his girlfriend and her father by shooting them dead in broad daylight and then turned his gun on police who shot him but obviously not fatally. Seems to me this could be karma at work, maybe 4 hours of pain would have been more suitable.
It's just as wrong to take the life of those who have murdered as those who are innocent. Objecting to the death penalty because of the possibility of a "miscarriage" is a cop-out.
Capital punishment is on its way out in America.
http://www.forasach.ie/2014/07/25/end-in-sight-for-death-penalty/ (http://www.forasach.ie/2014/07/25/end-in-sight-for-death-penalty/)
Quote from: Ulick on July 27, 2014, 02:25:48 AM
It's just as wrong to take the life of those who have murdered as those who are innocent. Objecting to the death penalty because of the possibility of a "miscarriage" is a cop-out.
Disagree. I have no problem with the state taking the lives of people for the most heinous crimes.
But I object to the use of the death penalty on account of the imperfection and unfairness of the justice system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kye2oX-b39E
As good a take on the subject as I have ever seen, from the mighty John Oliver.
An eye for an eye and we'd all be blind!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0903/641082-brothers-freed-prison/
30 years behind bars and innocent.
Quote from: orangeman on September 04, 2014, 12:05:39 AM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0903/641082-brothers-freed-prison/
30 years behind bars and innocent.
Unreal to read stuff like that
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 04, 2014, 12:11:30 AM
Quote from: orangeman on September 04, 2014, 12:05:39 AM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0903/641082-brothers-freed-prison/
30 years behind bars and innocent.
Unreal to read stuff like that
A bit more info here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/us/2-convicted-in-1983-north-carolina-murder-freed-after-dna-tests.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/us/2-convicted-in-1983-north-carolina-murder-freed-after-dna-tests.html)
These guys were literally being used as poster boys when arguing for the Death penalty
QuoteFor death penalty supporters, the horrifying facts of the girl's rape and murder only emphasized the justice of applying the ultimate penalty. As recently as 2010, the North Carolina Republican Party put Mr. McCollum's booking photograph on campaign fliers that accused a Democratic candidate of being soft on crime, according to The News & Observer of Raleigh, N.C.