A new thread is worthy for this semi final pairing,
Everybody will be expecting Tipperary to produce the goods and beat Limerick in this match and really give Kilkenny a game in the final. I suspect alot of people will want to see tipp win on this basis.
However I believe Limerick will give Tipp one hell of a game, as historically there is very little between these two counties. Been Limerick bias and been brought up a mile from the Tipp border this is a game that I think limerick can win. It could be similiar to 2006 where Limerick were not suppose to beat Waterford.
An added bonus for Limerick is that it looks like both the Moran brother Ollie and Niall will be back and in contention for a place on the team. Which is been named tonight I believe.
Another significant advantage is the management on the line, McCarthy is alot more astute than Sheehy and in a close game this could swing it for Limerick.
Limerick haven't being hurling super all year and have one big performance in them, Scraping over Wexford, Laois and Dublin.
The final thing is Tipp haven't been playing aswell as the previous year and have only been hurling in patches,
All these things I think will help make Limerick more competitive and wont be over run by Tipp as some suspect.
Looking forward to the game.
Quote from: youbetterbelieveit on August 11, 2009, 02:13:07 PM
Limerick having being hurling super all year
Really?
The first game v Waterford was one of the worst games of recent years while Waterford beat them comfortably in the replay. Limerick then scraped past Wexford and Dublin through sheer doggedness. Don't get me wrong Limerick are as honest and game as the day is long and those are admirable traits but they've never been known for their hurling ability. I think they probably will make it tough for Tipp as Limerick are guaranteed to get stuck in and won't stand back admiring them but I think Tipp will just have too much for them overall.
Can't see Limerick causing an upset here, they are a very average side. I watched them in the first game against Waterford and they were brutal, watched them live in shocking conditions against Wexford and I am 100% convinced if the weather had of been good Wexford would have taken them. The only chance they have is if we have bad weather on Sunday and they can turn the game into a dog fight.
I saw Limerick in their second half against Laois and thought they had no hope against Dublin.
I was wrong.
Against Laois, the Laois backs were able to walk out with the ball and if they had any forwards to receive the ball they would have put up a massive score.
Tipperary have these forwards and also their midfield can score from distance. Limerick have no hope. Unless I am wrong again.... ::)
Everything says Tipp but for some reason I won't be writing Limerick off just yet.
Tipp have the better forwards and even if they go to sleep for 20 minutes i'd have doubts about the Limerick forwards ability to make hay in this period, they've hit some awful wides to date.
I like the look of the Limerick defence though and if Foley and Geary can use the brains enough to prevent their lack of pace being exposed then the big scores that Tipp have been putting up early on may be somewhat curtailed. Seamus Hickey will need the game of his life to stop the Tipp midfield getting on top.
Right, Tipp by 4 to 6 points
Can't see Limerick even getting close in this one. Tipp have the bit between their teeth and most commentators reckon that it will be Tipp who topple KK.
Limerick always raise their game for Tipp and will probably do a lot better than people expect.
Remember, this bunch of Limerick players have pretty much held their own with Tipp over the past few years.
However, Tipp have just way too much up front for Limerick. Scoring forwards win games, and Tipp have just too many of these for Limerick.
I expect a close hard fought first 50 minutes with Tipp to push on in last quarter to win by 7 or 8 points.
If tipp don't hurl for the full seventy + minutes, Limerick could pull off an upset. tipp have fallen asleep for periods in their last couple of games. a trait that at this late stage in the championship can be the match lost. I think tipp should just have enough on the day, but as underdogs limerick are going to dublin with nothing to lose, and with another crack at the cats in the final to avenge 2007 limerick should be motivated. could be a cracker.
Paraic Maher at full-back? I don't get that. They should be priming him for center-back. That lad could be the making of Tipp over the coming years but I really don't think hes going to do it from the restrictive environment of full-back. To me this suggests Sheedy hasn't great faith in his defense. And after the Munster final I suppose its not hard to see why.
When are the teams named? Tonight?
I'd expect Tipp to give Kilkenny a run for their money in the final if they get past Limerick, and for that reason I'd like to see them win, but without a game in over a month they could be surprised.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 14, 2009, 08:46:53 AM
Paraic Maher at full-back? I don't get that. They should be priming him for center-back. That lad could be the making of Tipp over the coming years but I really don't think hes going to do it from the restrictive environment of full-back. To me this suggests Sheedy hasn't great faith in his defense. And after the Munster final I suppose its not hard to see why.
Maher has played all of his underage hurling at 3 for Tipp, kept Joe Canning in his pocket in the '06 minor All-Ireland and was arguably MOTM in the u21 All-Ireland last year from full-back. He plays 3, 6 and 9 for sars depending on their requirements. Having Conor O'Mahoney approaching full health allowed Sheedy the luxury of putting Padraig Maher back at 3. O'Mahoney and Maher are central players full-stop. Young Maher had the inclination to drift towards the centre in his starts at wing-back for Tipp. They have options there yet with Shane Maher back to fitness, O'Brien and Michael Cahill (one to watch) for corner back, Fanning to full-back. Paul Curran has started every game he can under Sheedy and a confident, sure Paul Curran is a neccessity on a Tipp team with All-Ireland aspirations. He started his career with Tipp at corner back so providing his confidence is right allowing him to play from the front, I would have no fears of him. That said he hasn't been himself this year, so Sunday will tell a lot.
Full-back requires great understanding with your corner men (when to go, when to stay, calls etc). Maybe that confidence wasn't there with O'Brien at corner-back. O'Brien has let a few balls disasterously through him when playing from the front (last year v Waterford, this year v Cork and Waterford).
Hey OB, thats all fair enough - I wasn't doubting that Maher couldn't do a great job at 3. I just reckon he'd have more to offer the team as a whole at 6. To me he could become a very commanding and dominant center-back (from the little I've seen thus far). And we all know how important a player like that is to any team with high ambitions. Thats more where I was coming from. Tipp have struggled to get a center-back in that mold for quite a while. They've had decent enough hurlers there, but not the Seanie McMahon or even the Pat Hayes type player, who'll read the game perfectly and catch ball all day.
not sure about the tipp half forwards. Other than that they are superior than limerick in 10 out of the remaining 12 positions.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 14, 2009, 04:00:44 PM
Hey OB, thats all fair enough - I wasn't doubting that Maher couldn't do a great job at 3. I just reckon he'd have more to offer the team as a whole at 6. To me he could become a very commanding and dominant center-back (from the little I've seen thus far). And we all know how important a player like that is to any team with high ambitions. Thats more where I was coming from. Tipp have struggled to get a center-back in that mold for quite a while. They've had decent enough hurlers there, but not the Seanie McMahon or even the Pat Hayes type player, who'll read the game perfectly and catch ball all day.
Agreed BT, the pivotal position. We've waited nearly 40 years for one and then 2 come along. O'Mahoney in full health, which I believe he is getting close to, is a serious hurler. Incidentally he does great work up front for his club (wearing 14 but playing anywhere inside the opposition half). Padraig Maher is beyond a serious prospect, he has arrived. Best at 6 in future years alright, I reckon.
See you in September.
Limerick team has been annouced and it is good to see Ollie back to lead the forward line.
Limerick (SH v Tipperary): B Murray; D Reale, S Lucey, M O'Riordan; S Hickey, B Geary, M Foley; D O'Grady, G O'Mahony; J Ryan, O Moran, P Browne; D Breen, P McNamara, A O'Shaughnessy.
Tipperary should win this handy if we stay awake for the 70 minutes.
I'm not sure about Curran in the corner, he is not as quick as he used to be.
He'll be fine against Breen of Limerick, but in the final against the Cats, they'll test his legs big time.
We can't allow ourselves to be bullied by Limerick this year. Waterford rattled us from the start last year and it took the team 10 minutes to realise they were in a match.
This last 6 or 7 years, Tipp teams don't seem to play well in the dead atmosphere of Croke Park.
The team seems to respond to electricity of Munster encounters but wilt in Croke Park.
Tipp by 7.
How bad are limerick?
Quote from: Gnevin on August 16, 2009, 06:04:53 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on August 16, 2009, 06:03:16 PM
How bad are limerick?
How bad is Hurling
On the evidence of this year, Kilkenny and Tipperary are well ahead of the chasing pack.
Tipp gave a Kilkenny a good test in the league final and I hope for hurling's sake they do the same in the All Ireland.
Hurling needs a good quality All Ireland final.
On today's game.
No offence to Limerick, but they had a nice run to the semi final.
Galway or Cork are better hurling teams.
Terrible team from Limerick today. Their backs rained down aimless balls on their forwards, their forwards couldn't catch a cold.
Tipp opened up the Limerick at ease with the sort of pact forward play that may trouble the Cats.
The only laugh of the day was when Marty Morrissey said something like.
"Brendan Cummins playing his 49th consecutive championship game since 1996...Of course he was dropped for two of the games against Limerick in 2007"
A shockingly bad effort by Limerick today which tells us nothing at all about how good or bad Tipp are. I suppose all Tipp could do was beat what was in front of them but dear me it was hard to watch. Fumbling, no tackling, aimles wides, how many points did Kerwick score for Tipp while standing totally unmarked about 50 yds out. Antony Daly must be kicking himself that Dublin lost to Limerick, I genuinly believe the Dubs would have given Tipp a better game ( it could not have been any worse )
Tipp have to be red-hot favourites for the final after that pretty awesome demolition job. Tipp were going at half-pelt, yet still racked up a huge 6-19. Imagine if they had enjoyed a spell of that awesome hurling they showed in patches in earlier championship games.
People will talk up Kilkenny, but lets face it, thats on the back of last year's championship. Tipp are the best team in this year's championship. They have clinically demolished anyone that came before them, while on the other hand Kilkenny have struggled against Galway, Waterford (who Tipp destroyed) and Dublin (who were beaten by that Limerick team). Tipp are the form team. Kilkenny aren't. Kilkenny are a tired, jaded outfit on the decline. The years are taking their toll. The miles have built up and fatigue and apathy have set in.
I repeat, Tipp are red-hot favourites for the all-Ireland. I only hope Kilkenny can give them a bit of a game, for the sake of hurling. Stay with them til half-time at least.
The funny thing about that game is that Tipp really did not play that well, Limerick really were that bad! I still couldn't tell you if Tipp are really good or are lambs to the slaughter against the Cats
Quote from: EddieMerx on August 17, 2009, 09:39:18 AM
The funny thing about that game is that Tipp really did not play that well, Limerick really were that bad! I still couldn't tell you if Tipp are really good or are lambs to the slaughter against the Cats
Agreed didn't thiink tipp scracthed themselves. You wouldn't see some of those goals in an u10 match. Limerick were so bad it wasn't funny. People forget after 10mins tipp still hadn't scored a point.
Terrible match for any hurling lover. The gulf in class at this stage of the championship is worrying. The difference between the teams in actual hurling ability told it's tale. Tipp did very well in the aerial exchanges in particular. It's hard to know if they have up'd that side of their game this year or Limerick just didn't compete aggressively enough under the dropping ball. Their team play also looks to have improved. They will definately give the cats a rattle but I think that KK will be ready and fired up in the final and reckon they will win it by 5-6 points
Quote from: theskull1 on August 17, 2009, 09:53:43 AM
Terrible match for any hurling lover. The gulf in class at this stage of the championship is worrying. The difference between the teams in actual hurling ability told it's tale. Tipp did very well in the aerial exchanges in particular. It's hard to know if they have up'd that side of their game this year or Limerick just didn't compete aggressively enough under the dropping ball. Their team play also looks to have improved. They will definately give the cats a rattle but I think that KK will be ready and fired up in the final and reckon they will win it by 5-6 points
limerick scored 1-14 from placed balls against Dublin. Once the frees didn't go well yesterday it was curtains. The ould blood and thunder give it a lash Jack style of hurling limerick play is over. Their tactics were a disaster yesterday. I doubt seriously Limerick will be back anytime soon.
Really shows how far wexford and dublin have to go if they couldn't beat that limerick side.
A client of ours is a big limerick GAA man- he said the limerick team were on his train yesterday. Thats hardly good preparation in my view? Might explain a few things.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 17, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Tipp have to be red-hot favourites for the final after that pretty awesome demolition job. Tipp were going at half-pelt, yet still racked up a huge 6-19. Imagine if they had enjoyed a spell of that awesome hurling they showed in patches in earlier championship games.
People will talk up Kilkenny, but lets face it, thats on the back of last year's championship. Tipp are the best team in this year's championship. They have clinically demolished anyone that came before them, while on the other hand Kilkenny have struggled against Galway, Waterford (who Tipp destroyed) and Dublin (who were beaten by that Limerick team). Tipp are the form team. Kilkenny aren't. Kilkenny are a tired, jaded outfit on the decline. The years are taking their toll. The miles have built up and fatigue and apathy have set in.
I repeat, Tipp are red-hot favourites for the all-Ireland. I only hope Kilkenny can give them a bit of a game, for the sake of hurling. Stay with them til half-time at least.
LOL!!! Great one there BT!!!
Sure why would Kilkenny even bother showing up after all they've won, they indeed must be exhausted from walking up the Hogan Stand stairs each September. Beginning to be a bit of a pain in butt...all that ceremonial crap!
Great stuff!!! Hope all is well and best of luck in the final.
Rumour has it Cody has told the panel not to bother training from here until the final and that the players should enjoy what's left of the summer. I think after seeing Tipp yesterday Cody decided it was pointless even trying to compete and he is praying for a swine flu outbreak in Tipp.
No offence to any hurling people but I fell asleep in the second half. Morrissey wouldn't kep anyone awake either. Fair play to Tipp though, I'd say they will relish taking on the cats.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 17, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Tipp have to be red-hot favourites for the final after that pretty awesome demolition job. Tipp were going at half-pelt, yet still racked up a huge 6-19. Imagine if they had enjoyed a spell of that awesome hurling they showed in patches in earlier championship games.
People will talk up Kilkenny, but lets face it, thats on the back of last year's championship. Tipp are the best team in this year's championship. They have clinically demolished anyone that came before them, while on the other hand Kilkenny have struggled against Galway, Waterford (who Tipp destroyed) and Dublin (who were beaten by that Limerick team). Tipp are the form team. Kilkenny aren't. Kilkenny are a tired, jaded outfit on the decline. The years are taking their toll. The miles have built up and fatigue and apathy have set in.
I repeat, Tipp are red-hot favourites for the all-Ireland. I only hope Kilkenny can give them a bit of a game, for the sake of hurling. Stay with them til half-time at least.
If you feel so strongly about it, I'd take Tipp at 100/30 at Cashmans bt. 1/4 KKK.
Quote from: ormondeboy on August 17, 2009, 11:14:37 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 17, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Tipp have to be red-hot favourites for the final after that pretty awesome demolition job. Tipp were going at half-pelt, yet still racked up a huge 6-19. Imagine if they had enjoyed a spell of that awesome hurling they showed in patches in earlier championship games.
People will talk up Kilkenny, but lets face it, thats on the back of last year's championship. Tipp are the best team in this year's championship. They have clinically demolished anyone that came before them, while on the other hand Kilkenny have struggled against Galway, Waterford (who Tipp destroyed) and Dublin (who were beaten by that Limerick team). Tipp are the form team. Kilkenny aren't. Kilkenny are a tired, jaded outfit on the decline. The years are taking their toll. The miles have built up and fatigue and apathy have set in.
I repeat, Tipp are red-hot favourites for the all-Ireland. I only hope Kilkenny can give them a bit of a game, for the sake of hurling. Stay with them til half-time at least.
If you feel so strongly about it, I'd take Tipp at 100/30 at Cashmans bt. 1/4 KKK.
Eh, typo there. Should of course read 1/4 KK.
Quote from: Kevin on August 17, 2009, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 17, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Tipp have to be red-hot favourites for the final after that pretty awesome demolition job. Tipp were going at half-pelt, yet still racked up a huge 6-19. Imagine if they had enjoyed a spell of that awesome hurling they showed in patches in earlier championship games.
People will talk up Kilkenny, but lets face it, thats on the back of last year's championship. Tipp are the best team in this year's championship. They have clinically demolished anyone that came before them, while on the other hand Kilkenny have struggled against Galway, Waterford (who Tipp destroyed) and Dublin (who were beaten by that Limerick team). Tipp are the form team. Kilkenny aren't. Kilkenny are a tired, jaded outfit on the decline. The years are taking their toll. The miles have built up and fatigue and apathy have set in.
I repeat, Tipp are red-hot favourites for the all-Ireland. I only hope Kilkenny can give them a bit of a game, for the sake of hurling. Stay with them til half-time at least.
LOL!!! Great one there BT!!!
Sure why would Kilkenny even bother showing up after all they've won, they indeed must be exhausted from walking up the Hogan Stand stairs each September. Beginning to be a bit of a pain in butt...all that ceremonial crap!
Great stuff!!! Hope all is well and best of luck in the final.
Howaya Kevin. Yeah, I heard they were considering whether to turn up or not. I think they have to do or there'll be trouble. But its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation - play the game and sure, you avoid all the boardroom hassles. But play the game and you also have the Tipp hordes traipsing through Urlingford and Johnstown (the ones that don't know about the new motorway), leaving their affluent. And thats not to mention the hammering Kerwick and co will dish out.
who'd be a Kilkenny hurler....
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 17, 2009, 10:20:55 PM
No offence to any hurling people but I fell asleep in the second half. Morrissey wouldn't kep anyone awake either. Fair play to Tipp though, I'd say they will relish taking on the cats.
thats no bother. Football has that affect on me
Quote from: ormondeboy on August 17, 2009, 11:14:37 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 17, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Tipp have to be red-hot favourites for the final after that pretty awesome demolition job. Tipp were going at half-pelt, yet still racked up a huge 6-19. Imagine if they had enjoyed a spell of that awesome hurling they showed in patches in earlier championship games.
People will talk up Kilkenny, but lets face it, thats on the back of last year's championship. Tipp are the best team in this year's championship. They have clinically demolished anyone that came before them, while on the other hand Kilkenny have struggled against Galway, Waterford (who Tipp destroyed) and Dublin (who were beaten by that Limerick team). Tipp are the form team. Kilkenny aren't. Kilkenny are a tired, jaded outfit on the decline. The years are taking their toll. The miles have built up and fatigue and apathy have set in.
I repeat, Tipp are red-hot favourites for the all-Ireland. I only hope Kilkenny can give them a bit of a game, for the sake of hurling. Stay with them til half-time at least.
If you feel so strongly about it, I'd take Tipp at 100/30 at Cashmans bt. 1/4 KKK.
I stand corrected over what I said before about ye're defence. I though O'Mahony had a fine game at 6 and Maher likewise at 3 on sunday. The defense overall looks to have a nice balance to it lining out that way.
And other question marks I had were put to bed - I hadn't really rated Pat Kerwick from what I'd seen of him, but he was busy throughout. And showed he can finish. And both the Borrisoleigh lads at the back look very capable.
The only question mark that remains for me about Tipp is in midfield. I don't think you're particularly strong there. McGrath is good when on song, but hes not had a good year this year. Brendan Cummins should have made way for Darren Gleeson in the league also. Hes too error-prone at this stage of his career. But not so much that he'd ever prove the difference in any given game.
I can't believe how much stock you're putting in a performance against a team that had a complete off day. I mean how many short lists of all-ireland winners were Limerick on?
Answer- it begins with "n" and ends in"e".
Quote from: INDIANA on August 18, 2009, 09:32:41 AM
I can't believe how much stock you're putting in a performance against a team that had a complete off day. I mean how many short lists of all-ireland winners were Limerick on?
Answer- it begins with "n" and ends in"e".
well as and of 2 saturdays ago they'd have been 4th on my list of possible winners.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 18, 2009, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: ormondeboy on August 17, 2009, 11:14:37 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 17, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Tipp have to be red-hot favourites for the final after that pretty awesome demolition job. Tipp were going at half-pelt, yet still racked up a huge 6-19. Imagine if they had enjoyed a spell of that awesome hurling they showed in patches in earlier championship games.
People will talk up Kilkenny, but lets face it, thats on the back of last year's championship. Tipp are the best team in this year's championship. They have clinically demolished anyone that came before them, while on the other hand Kilkenny have struggled against Galway, Waterford (who Tipp destroyed) and Dublin (who were beaten by that Limerick team). Tipp are the form team. Kilkenny aren't. Kilkenny are a tired, jaded outfit on the decline. The years are taking their toll. The miles have built up and fatigue and apathy have set in.
I repeat, Tipp are red-hot favourites for the all-Ireland. I only hope Kilkenny can give them a bit of a game, for the sake of hurling. Stay with them til half-time at least.
If you feel so strongly about it, I'd take Tipp at 100/30 at Cashmans bt. 1/4 KKK.
I stand corrected over what I said before about ye're defence. I though O'Mahony had a fine game at 6 and Maher likewise at 3 on sunday. The defense overall looks to have a nice balance to it lining out that way.
And other question marks I had were put to bed - I hadn't really rated Pat Kerwick from what I'd seen of him, but he was busy throughout. And showed he can finish. And both the Borrisoleigh lads at the back look very capable.
The only question mark that remains for me about Tipp is in midfield. I don't think you're particularly strong there. McGrath is good when on song, but hes not had a good year this year. Brendan Cummins should have made way for Darren Gleeson in the league also. Hes too error-prone at this stage of his career. But not so much that he'd ever prove the difference in any given game.
I'd be happy enough with the hurlin' and aggression in the back 6 as of now. As you said midfield is a serious concern. Shane McGrath has not fired properly this year since his illness and Sheedy has not really groomed another to confidently replace him. Gearóid Ryan has not done enough. Benny Dunne is best suited to coming on when the game is looosened up (and not in the crucible) as he'll read the game well and use the ball reasonably ok. He'll not swing a midfield for 70 minutes I fear. Tomás Stapleton must be injured? Hugh Maloney should have been tried there earlier. Sheedy seems intent on using him as a half-forward which is crazy. He was not even considered for midfield on Sunday with both midfielders replaced? I admire Woodlock's workrate and phyicallity, but I don't think he has the savy or ability to process ball efficiently between half-back to half-forward lines. His distribution can be loose.
Our half-forward line is more problematic. Kerwick will work hard all day long and can take a score. Not as refined as John O'Brien or Callinan but what you see is what you get. John O'Brien is having a fine season foraging back around midfield and delivering good ball inside. He'll have to be on-top of his game for the final picking up Tommy Walsh. Consistency has been John's problem up to this point, but this has been his best intercounty season since 2001. His work-rate has been admirable and will be needed again and more against the hardest working team in the game. Callinan is Callinan, maybe he'll mature into a more rounded player but I'd be worried how honest he'll keep Tennyson/Hogan. If John O'B doesn't break even and Callinan does not do the basics (like stand under his man for long-ball/puck-outs) we'll be beaten well as the KK attack will benefit from the surplus of service that our inside line
should be receiving.
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 18, 2009, 10:05:59 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on August 18, 2009, 09:32:41 AM
I can't believe how much stock you're putting in a performance against a team that had a complete off day. I mean how many short lists of all-ireland winners were Limerick on?
Answer- it begins with "n" and ends in"e".
well as and of 2 saturdays ago they'd have been 4th on my list of possible winners.
Can you honestly see how the tipp half forward will break even with the kilkenny half line because I can't.
Quote from: INDIANA on August 18, 2009, 01:03:45 PM
Quote from: bottlethrower7 on August 18, 2009, 10:05:59 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on August 18, 2009, 09:32:41 AM
I can't believe how much stock you're putting in a performance against a team that had a complete off day. I mean how many short lists of all-ireland winners were Limerick on?
Answer- it begins with "n" and ends in"e".
well as and of 2 saturdays ago they'd have been 4th on my list of possible winners.
Can you honestly see how the tipp half forward will break even with the kilkenny half line because I can't.
2/3s of them shouldn't and the other third shouldn't most of the time. But Callinan is lightening quick - and could pose Brian Hogan problems if gets the chance to run at him. I'd expect Hogan to outsmart him in the air though, so supply could be limited.
To be honest I haven't even thought about the game. My point, badly made, was to highlight the folly of how the favourites tag gets attributed to a team in hurling. And its more a dig at the print and telly media than anything else. To me it shows how unobjective the media are when it comes to hurling. Everything is based on preconceptions - what someone or some team has done in the past - often in the distant past.
Take the Dublin-Kerry football game that happened there not too long ago. As far as I can see, Kerry were in the Kilkenny position going into that match. They were a team made up of players that we all know to be hugely talented. They hadn't come close to their potential at all this year, and people were quick to write them off as a result. Dublin were red-hot favourites based on their performances and their results to that point in the championship. Then look what happened.
The outcome of that game is irrelevant. Its the attitudes that were taken pre the game. They were logical. They were based on recent fact.
I see the hurling final pairing as a parallel to that case. Kilkenny are a team are made up of players that we all know to be hugely talented. They haven't come close to their potential at all this year. Tipp on the other hand have destroyed every team in their path - acknowledged they haven't been able to sustain the high levels they've played at in certain period of certain games - but then again, we can probably attribute that largely to the heart shown by their opponents in the closing stages of those games. Now, coming up to the final no one gives Tipp an asses roar of a chance.
Do I think Kilkenny will win? No, not really. I don't think they won't win. I haven't sat down to figure out what I think. It might be pointless to do so. Nobody really knows how good Tipp are or how bad Kilkenny are. Chances are we'll see a side of both teams not seen before. Chances are we won't. We won't know until the day. How can one predict how the Tipp defense will hold up the Kilkenny forward line, given we can't know how that Kilkenny forward line will perform. Likewise Tipp. Their full-forward line has potential to do a lot of damage, but will their supposed shortcomings out the field mean a limited supply for the inside line?
And what of hunger? Can Kilkenny possibly match Tipp's hunger given they're the new kids on the block (so to speak)? Or Tipps nerves in their first final in 8 years?
Who knows?
QuoteTipp on the other hand have destroyed every team in their path
Eh? They far from destroyed either Clare or Waterford, sure they needed a good save from Cummins to prevent Clare getting a draw. I agree they were the better team in both games and maybe the final scoreline flattered the losers but destroyed they weren't. I also think it's a bit fanciful to describe Kilkenny's performances as poor this year, they beat Waterford as comfortably as Tipp did, yet you think one team destroyed Waterford and the other were poor in winning, your logic escapes me I'm afraid.
As for ignoring the past, well you can't do that in sport, if a team has shown the ability to reach certain heights in the very recent past then it's fair to say they are probably capable of reaching them in the near future too. Kilkenny's favouritism is at least as logical as Dublin's was against Kerry.
Quote from: Zulu on August 19, 2009, 12:41:36 PM
QuoteTipp on the other hand have destroyed every team in their path
Eh? They far from destroyed either Clare or Waterford, sure they needed a good save from Cummins to prevent Clare getting a draw. I agree they were the better team in both games and maybe the final scoreline flattered the losers but destroyed they weren't. I also think it's a bit fanciful to describe Kilkenny's performances as poor this year, they beat Waterford as comfortably as Tipp did, yet you think one team destroyed Waterford and the other were poor in winning, your logic escapes me I'm afraid.
As for ignoring the past, well you can't do that in sport, if a team has shown the ability to reach certain heights in the very recent past then it's fair to say they are probably capable of reaching them in the near future too. Kilkenny's favouritism is at least as logical as Dublin's was against Kerry.
during their periods of dominance they did fairly destroy everyone they played. No one had an answer for them. Can they repeat that for a sustained enough time in the final? If not, will it be enough. Another question to be pondered.
I agree that the past shouldn't be ignored. In fact that was the point I was trying to make, but also that the more recent past should be given more credence than what happened 6 months or a year ago. Its just not consistent.
Kilkenny never dominated Waterford the way Tipp did in the first half of the munster final. Yes, maybe Kilkenny were just doing enough to win, but we can't say that with any surety.
And as regards it being as logical that Dublin were favourites as Kilkenny were, thank you. That kind of furthers my point - the way the media applies the favourites tag to teams is based on little more than someone's opinion. I'm sure plenty had Kerry as favourites. The inconsistency is in the fact that a specific set of criteria was used for that game, while that same criteria is being ignored for the hurling final.
In my own opinion, the only way to view the final is on a man-for-man, assessing player for player as we know and believe them to be. Then compare that to their immediate opponents. And even that could prove hollow - again, how do you account for form when form could prove irrelevant (as it did in the Dublin-Kerry game). How do you predict conditions?
Don't mind me - this media-bashing come final time is almost an annual pastime for me at this stage.
You won't come across worse journalism than this!
The Day Hurling died
Written by Donn O'Sullivan
Thursday, 20 August 2009 08:24
The humiliating scoreline of the 2009 All Ireland hurling semi final between two great hurling traditionalists. Limerick are out of the championship and Liam Mc Carthy-less for the 36th year in a row. It's time to face the facts. Limerick is no longer a hurling county.
There may have been shame and humiliation on the pitch of Croke Park last Sunday, but the margin of defeat is not all the players fault. Nor is it the fault entirely of the management team.
Nor the County board for that matter. The main blame on this occasion lies with the GAA as a whole. Too long the GAA blazers have sat back, munched on the free triangle shaped sandwiches and supped tea. The organistation is crumbling beneath them. The values of what the GAA has been built on have been cast aside. Forgotten. The gap in excellence on the field last weekend was down to the GAA giving too much to the bigger fish and forgetting the smaller fries.
It would be easy for me this week to run a piece about how this fella was poor and that fella should have been taken off. What's done is done. Limerick's loss last weekend was as bad as it gets for Limerick fans. There is no point in me pouring salt in the wounds. We all know that the level of effort put in was not good enough. The skills one display were not there. The passion and pride, which Limerick hurling is so famous for, deserted the team and we had nothing. We have to look at the bigger picture to really see where the problems lie.
The fact that Tipperary are going for their 26th All Ireland title and Kilkenny are going for their 32nd, with a potential four in a row, just goes to show how hurling is becoming extinct. Cork have 30 titles and the nearest to them is Limerick with seven. The game has become top heavy. The superpowers are murdering the life of the game.
What benefit is it to players in Galway, Limerick, Wexford, Clare, Waterford and Antrim, to name a few, to have these sides winning every year. The real issue is this. When counties like Longford, Leitrim and Wicklow stopped hurling, the GAA did nothing. Now, Offaly, Limerick and Wexford are joining those sides in the barren lands that is championship defeats. I know people can argue that Kilkenny cannot support a football team nor can Longford make up 15 for a hurling team, but that is just the point. The GAA has not put the structures in place to promote the games which are essentially dead in some counties. Kerry no longer has a hurling team in the Munster championship, yet the GAA are okay with them having a dominant football side.
There are so many factors at work against the smaller counties. Take Limerick for example. Granted the under age structures are now being amended with the lifting of the treaty plan, but the fact that the hurlers are not coming through in the numbers needed goes down to bad planning on the county board level. There was a month this summer where not one county championship game was played. The inter county hurler got rusty and the club hurler got bored and disinterested. The rule of one win and you are safe allows teams to train for one big match and then forget about it. The same old teams are winning the county titles too. Am I repeating myself?
There is more competition for the GAA now than ever. When Munster are winning all the time and Torres and Rooney are on the screens all the time, why would a child pick up a hurley? Years ago fathers, mothers and primary school teachers were the ones that the GAA lived off of. Those men and women are now not as interested, even if they are at all, in the GAA. The time has come for radical change.
A 24 point loss in a semi final. In a tournament that has only eight teams that can win it each year. Three of whom are dominant. Seems to me that if hurling isn't dead, last weekend was the last rights.
A long, long time ago...
I can still remember
How hurling used to make
me smile.
And I knew if Limerick had their chance
They could make those
people dance
And, maybe, we'd be happy
for a while.
But February made me shiver
When every league match
failed to deliver
Bad news on the doorstep;
I couldn't take one more step.
I can't remember if I cried
When Corbett jumped,
three times with pride,
But something touched me
deep inside
The day Hurling died.
http://www.limerickpost.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=997:the-day-hurling-died&catid=23:sport&Itemid=34 (http://www.limerickpost.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=997:the-day-hurling-died&catid=23:sport&Itemid=34)
Quote from: Premier Emperor on August 28, 2009, 08:27:14 AM
You won't come across worse journalism than this!
Have you ever read John Allen?