Irish governments turn to answer claims of collusion

[glens abu]

Collusion is collusion boys, there can be no excuses made, no bullshit whataboutery, the lines trotted out like 'a few bad apples' are the same lines Ruc collusion apologists trotted out ad nauseum.

But sorry, collusion isn't collusion here. It's Smithwhick's definition of it. So the 'state' part of this thread title is completely ridiculous, since the 'state' is represented by literally 2 guards. As said, if 'the failure to act' is collusion then we have successive British Cabinets involved in collusion rather than just 'one or two bad apples' (David Ford).

The person who equivocated is the judge himself. It's not whataboutery, it's based on what he himself said.

.
Revenge for Loughgall and someone in Dundalk Garda Station fed the info to the IRA.
It was hardly systematic.
And in the end the IRA recognised Norn Irn anyway.

[/color]

When did the IRA do this.

[lawnseed]

And it was their own fault wandering into South Armagh, what did they expect with their "laissez faire" attitude.

Their attitude was astonishing. It also mean that that least bit of information could lead to their deaths.

they were on a road frequently patrolled by heavily armed volunteers..  and they got shot imagine that!! a road only covered by army helicopters.. emmm? helicopters that the volunteers were actively targeting.. they could have walked to the train its only about a hundred metres from Dundalk garda station

no shit Sherlock something stinks about the whole thing. the behaviour of these two senior officers is not normal it just doesn't add up

[AQMP]

My point is you dont have to equivocate, condemn it for what it is or say nowt, it's not defensible.

No it isn't, and it doesn't reflect well on the guards. Not because they were all in cahoots with the Provos but because of an unwillingness to deal with dodgy elements in their own ranks. It was the same with the McBrearty debacle in Donegal. The upper echelons knew something was wrong but they kept kicking the can down the road in the hope that . . . well, I don't know what they were hoping. Basically that it would all go away.

Note that any objective assessment of the murders of Bob Buchanan and Harry Breen has to incorporate their amazingly cavalier attitude to their own safety. They had a self-image of being ordinary peelers going about their day's work helping old ladies across the street and giving rapscallions a toe up the behind. They would regularly pop into any barracks along the border to talk shop. It was an insane way for two senior RUC officers to behave and the longer it went on the more the chances of something happening to them approached 1.

Careful deiseach, Adams is getting hammered in the Dail and the media for saying the same thing.

[screenexile]

My point is you dont have to equivocate, condemn it for what it is or say nowt, it's not defensible.

No it isn't, and it doesn't reflect well on the guards. Not because they were all in cahoots with the Provos but because of an unwillingness to deal with dodgy elements in their own ranks. It was the same with the McBrearty debacle in Donegal. The upper echelons knew something was wrong but they kept kicking the can down the road in the hope that . . . well, I don't know what they were hoping. Basically that it would all go away.

Note that any objective assessment of the murders of Bob Buchanan and Harry Breen has to incorporate their amazingly cavalier attitude to their own safety. They had a self-image of being ordinary peelers going about their day's work helping old ladies across the street and giving rapscallions a toe up the behind. They would regularly pop into any barracks along the border to talk shop. It was an insane way for two senior RUC officers to behave and the longer it went on the more the chances of something happening to them approached 1.

Careful deiseach, Adams is getting hammered in the Dail and the media for saying the same thing.

That's class!! Almost as good as the rapists defence of "the way she was dressed she deserved it!!!

Cop on lads!

[deiseach]

That's class!! Almost as good as the rapists defence of "the way she was dressed she deserved it!!!

Cop on lads!

Look, Smithwick wasn't asked to investigate the murder of Buchanan and Breen, just the allegations of collusion coming from Dundalk garda station. If someone from the station does come before a court for aiding in their killing the first thing the defence will say ask is what about (yeah, I know) the guards in Carrickmacross and Castleblaney who received visits from one or other of the victims on an almost weekly basis. The Provos only had to be able to read a number plate to work out their movements. The real scandal here is the shoulder-shrugging manner in which the guards handled the allegations of collusion.

[Ulick]

My point is you dont have to equivocate, condemn it for what it is or say nowt, it's not defensible.

No it isn't, and it doesn't reflect well on the guards. Not because they were all in cahoots with the Provos but because of an unwillingness to deal with dodgy elements in their own ranks. It was the same with the McBrearty debacle in Donegal. The upper echelons knew something was wrong but they kept kicking the can down the road in the hope that . . . well, I don't know what they were hoping. Basically that it would all go away.

Note that any objective assessment of the murders of Bob Buchanan and Harry Breen has to incorporate their amazingly cavalier attitude to their own safety. They had a self-image of being ordinary peelers going about their day's work helping old ladies across the street and giving rapscallions a toe up the behind. They would regularly pop into any barracks along the border to talk shop. It was an insane way for two senior RUC officers to behave and the longer it went on the more the chances of something happening to them approached 1.

Careful deiseach, Adams is getting hammered in the Dail and the media for saying the same thing.

That's class!! Almost as good as the rapists defence of "the way she was dressed she deserved it!!!

Cop on lads!

No they deserved it for the 80+ sectarian Glenanne Gang murders to which Breen supplied the weapons and the 'take no prisoners' Loughgall ambush in which he helped organise. That the driver Bob Buchanan believed God would protect him despite being so cavalier about their personal safety just made it easier.

[Applesisapples]

Ah there you have it, bleat on about lack of evidence on collusion, but blow two guys away with out the benefit of due process.

[Applesisapples]

Along the lines of it gave closure to victims, he's all for victims and whist it happened here relationships between the PSNI/Gardai are a lot better now. None of the utterly predictable bollocks the Elliott was spouting. Elliott is to the right of the TUV.

[Applesisapples]

I've just heard Adams remarks...FFS he is completely out of touch. I'd say the comments have lost the Shinners some votes. Whatever happened to "whatever you say, say nothing". Adams is well past his use by date.

[Nally Stand]

I've just heard Adams remarks...FFS he is completely out of touch.

Which remarks have you just heard? The one's you earlier (around 7 hours ago) said you were listening to on the radio this morning?...

Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame.

Adams is well past his use by date.

The same Gerry Adams who brought SF to be the largest party in the six counties and tripled their representation in the Dáil since the last election? That Gerry Adams? The man whom Fr Alec Reid, in his last public interview, described as "probably the most capable politician we have...probably one of the most capable politicians in Europe". Him?

[Applesisapples]

I've just heard Adams remarks...FFS he is completely out of touch.

Which remarks have you just heard? The one's you earlier said you were listening to on the radio this morning?...

Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame.

Adams is well past his use by date.

The same Gerry Adams who brought SF to be the largest party in the six counties and tripled their representation in the Dáil since the last election? That Gerry Adams?

Past history. His comments in this instance are ill judged both in timing and in assessing the mood of voters.

[Nally Stand]

I've just heard Adams remarks...FFS he is completely out of touch.

Which remarks have you just heard? The one's you earlier said you were listening to on the radio this morning?...

Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame.

Adams is well past his use by date.

The same Gerry Adams who brought SF to be the largest party in the six counties and tripled their representation in the Dáil since the last election? That Gerry Adams?

Past history. His comments in this instance are ill judged both in timing and in assessing the mood of voters.

Past history? So the longest surviving political party leader in Ireland, and who, as I mentioned above, was described in Fr Alec Reid's last public interview as "probably the most capable politician we have...probably one of the most capable politicians in Europe", has been deemed by applesisapples as being "past his sell by date" as of the last election (an election in which the party under his leadership tripled it's representation)?

[Myles Na G.]

Sad that one or two individuals were prepared to betray their colleagues and their country by conspiring with the enemies of the Irish state. One thing that surprises me is why the tribunal accepted a statement from the IRA. If the conclusions of the judge are correct - and everyone seems to have accepted them - then it follows that the IRA lied in their statement, since they denied that they'd received information from the guards. That surprises me not one jot, since it has been demonstrated over a very long period that the IRA lies, lies and lies again, until such time the lies are exposed at which point it changes tack and issues a different version of events. Gerry Adams personifies this approach - the man lies virtually every time he opens his mouth. Like I said, I'm not surprised at the fact they've lied again, just surprised they were allowed the opportunity to disrespect a state sponsored enquiry.

[Ulick]

I've just heard Adams remarks...FFS he is completely out of touch.

Which remarks have you just heard? The one's you earlier said you were listening to on the radio this morning?...

Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame.

Adams is well past his use by date.

The same Gerry Adams who brought SF to be the largest party in the six counties and tripled their representation in the Dáil since the last election? That Gerry Adams?

Past history. His comments in this instance are ill judged both in timing and in assessing the mood of voters.

GTF Apples, you're always scraping around for an excuse to attack him and it's particularly reprehensible you're mimicking unionists and Free State gombeens (Martin & Shatter) who use death for cheap personal attacks. In this case Adams comments reflect the substance of Smithwick's report and for you and other to suggest different takes us all for idiots.

[red hander]

I wonder if Nally Stand is as upset with this collusion.

Rest assured, Nally Stand won't lose any sleep over an ambush on two senior RUC men; one of whom was named by John Weir in a sworn affidavit as belonging to a loyalist paramilitary group in County Down who were closely tied to the UVF. I am also fairly content to know that any collusion was, as evidenced in today's report, due to "someone", in one garda station who passed on information to the IRA, and was not a functioning, long running state policy, as was the case with british state collusion.

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