Take back the Church from the Pope to the People?

[mylestheslasher]

Interesting idea, Sounds like to me like the people will have to save their church themselves (if they want to) as the pope and his bishop only want to look after their own greedy interests.....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tell-bishops-to-get-the-hell-out-of-our-cathedrals-says-writer-2305040.html

Tell bishops to 'get the hell out of our cathedrals', says writer

By Marese McDonagh
Friday August 20 2010

Irish Catholics should establish a home-grown church by demanding that the bishops "get the hell out of your cathedrals", a leading author said yesterday.

Former 'Newsweek' journalist Robert Blair Kaiser also said that a grandmother who is urging women to boycott Mass in protest at the way women are treated in the church has started a revolution

He called on Irish Catholics to fix their "broken church" by making it "more Irish, less Roman" at the opening of the Humbert Summer School in Co Mayo.

Mr Blair Kaiser, who reported on the second Vatican Council for 'Time' magazine, said that the battle for the Irish Catholic church had already been started by 80-year-old Jennifer Sleeman, who has called on women to boycott Sunday mass on September 26 "to let the Vatican and the Irish church know women are tired of being treated as second-class citizens".

The US author said that the Cork grandmother had probably started the revolution.

"I have every reason to believe that you can take back your church -- your church, not the Pope's church, your church -- not the bishops' church", said Mr Blair Kaiser who recommended that Irish Catholics create a "autochthonous" or local and from-the-ground-up church.

In a keynote address 'Church Reform: No More Thrones', the author said he was not attacking the Catholic faith but the "special and corrosive tyranny that popes have been exercising over Catholics everywhere".

He said that in the 1800s, Ireland's first cardinal, Paul Cullen, had built a two-tiered clerical Irish church which marched in total loyalty to Rome and his own over-reaching authority. Later, Dublin Archbishop John Charles McQuaid had "put his own special twists" on Cardinal Cullen's authoritarian model, imposing his iron will on Irish politics and Irish society.

"The cardinal and the archbishop established the clerical culture in Ireland that Judge Yvonne Murphy identified as the root cause of the Irish scandals that have sent your nation reeling," said Blair Kaiser.

Irish Catholics could establish a home-grown church by demanding bishops "get the hell out of your cathedrals" and elect their own bishops who would serve the people as listeners, not lords," he suggested.

Rejected

In a response to the US expert, 'Irish Catholic' deputy editor Michael Kelly rejected the comparison between England's occupation and the "colonising power" of the papacy.

He said that while he shared the keynote speaker's sadness that the church in Ireland had been unwilling and unable to embrace the teachings of the second Vatican Council, he could not accept that the council intended a rupture of the Catholic tradition of the church.

"What I have experienced in Ireland is a Catholicism that has betrayed the best tradition of our church, he added. He said it was more consoling to blame Rome than to search Irish Catholicism for what had gone wrong and he called for an "honest investigation" into the culture of the church here.

The dreadful truth about the "cabal of egomaniacal clerics" who failed Irish Catholics so dreadfully, is that these bishops did not come from Rome or Constantinople -- but from Caherciveen, Tullamore, Cavan, Roscommon and Castlebar.

The school continues today with an examination of the response by the Pope and the Irish hierarchy to the abuse scandals.

- Marese McDonagh

[orangeman]

This man was given till 6pm last Saturday to pack his bags and go and then we are told he has voluntarily stepped down. It's good to see the people of Blackrock have a bit of back bone when they stormed the sacristy and faced down the Bishop. And more importantly, the parishioners vow there'll be no more dues or envelopes paid. This might be the start of it.




A LOCAL priest who has voluntarily stepped down while the Catholic Church investigates a complaint relating to child safeguarding has said he is "absolutely innocent".


Former Haggardstown-Blackrock Parish Priest Fr Oliver Brennan told The Dundalk Democrat that he would like to comment further, however, he is unable to do so due to legal reasons.

Parishioners were left reeling after Bishop Gerard Clifford made the shock announcement after Mass in Blackrock and Haggardstown last weekend.

Bishop Clifford addressed the congregation in Blackrock about a decision made regarding their parish priest after the 6.30pm mass on Saturday, August 14. He addressed the congregation in Haggardstown at 9am mass the following day.

Speaking at Mass Bishop Clifford said: "This week the Archdiocese has been made aware of a complaint relating to child safeguarding against a priest of the diocese.

"The priest has agreed to voluntarily step down to allow the investigation into this matter to be conducted efficiently. The allegation has been reported to the civil authorities, and the Diocese and the priest will fully cooperate with any investigation. Whilst this process is ongoing the priest is entitled to the benefit of a presumption of innocence."

According to church-goers who were present at the Blackrock Mass when Bishop Clifford was reading the statement, "the church was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop".

Eye-witnesses said that there was "war in the sacristy" after Bishop Clifford had finished the announcement. A number of parishioners verbally challenged the Bishop in the sacristy who told them he was unable to make any additional comment.

A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Armagh told The Dundalk Democrat that he could not comment on where and when the alleged offence was supposed to have occurred.

However, a source claims that the alleged offence is said to have been reported by an anonymous caller, and is said to have occurred over 30 years ago.

Fr Brennan, who originally comes from Edmondstown, Ardee was based in Haggardstown-Blackrock for just over 10 years and is hugely popular with his parishioners, young and old alike.

Parishioners in Blackrock and Haggardstown have voiced their support for Fr Brennan who was told by the Church two weeks ago that he would be moved to a different parish in early September.

Angered by the Church's decision, the parishioners went on strike refusing to collect dues or pay over €1 million in debt owed for the refurbishment of their church if the popular priest was removed.

"I know the procedures have to be in place but I don't believe it. He was such a dedicated man. I can't put words on it. It's so awful for him as a person and as a priest," said Blackrock parishioner Vivienne Lamont.

Fidelma Lavelle from Dunmahon said she is "utterly disgusted" by Fr Brennan's removal from the parish.

"The man is distraught. The whole parish is distraught.

[Orior]

Does Robert Blair Kaiser want to be the next Reverand Ian Kyle Paisley and form his own church?

I wont be joining you Reverand Robert.

[whatsinaname]

Orior beat me to, this style of church and religion already existds in Ireland, protestantism in all its forms and guises.

[johnneycool]

Orior beat me to, this style of church and religion already existds in Ireland, protestantism in all its forms and guises.

so are you saying that the only difference between Catholicism and the varying forms of Protestantism is purely structural and organisational and no differences in faith?

[whatsinaname]

Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations.  What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic.  Thats all.

[LeoMc]

This man was given till 6pm last Saturday to pack his bags and go and then we are told he has voluntarily stepped down. It's good to see the people of Blackrock have a bit of back bone when they stormed the sacristy and faced down the Bishop. And more importantly, the parishioners vow there'll be no more dues or envelopes paid. This might be the start of it.




A LOCAL priest who has voluntarily stepped down while the Catholic Church investigates a complaint relating to child safeguarding has said he is "absolutely innocent".


Former Haggardstown-Blackrock Parish Priest Fr Oliver Brennan told The Dundalk Democrat that he would like to comment further, however, he is unable to do so due to legal reasons.

Parishioners were left reeling after Bishop Gerard Clifford made the shock announcement after Mass in Blackrock and Haggardstown last weekend.

Bishop Clifford addressed the congregation in Blackrock about a decision made regarding their parish priest after the 6.30pm mass on Saturday, August 14. He addressed the congregation in Haggardstown at 9am mass the following day.

Speaking at Mass Bishop Clifford said: "This week the Archdiocese has been made aware of a complaint relating to child safeguarding against a priest of the diocese.

"The priest has agreed to voluntarily step down to allow the investigation into this matter to be conducted efficiently. The allegation has been reported to the civil authorities, and the Diocese and the priest will fully cooperate with any investigation. Whilst this process is ongoing the priest is entitled to the benefit of a presumption of innocence."

According to church-goers who were present at the Blackrock Mass when Bishop Clifford was reading the statement, "the church was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop".

Eye-witnesses said that there was "war in the sacristy" after Bishop Clifford had finished the announcement. A number of parishioners verbally challenged the Bishop in the sacristy who told them he was unable to make any additional comment.

A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Armagh told The Dundalk Democrat that he could not comment on where and when the alleged offence was supposed to have occurred.

However, a source claims that the alleged offence is said to have been reported by an anonymous caller, and is said to have occurred over 30 years ago.

Fr Brennan, who originally comes from Edmondstown, Ardee was based in Haggardstown-Blackrock for just over 10 years and is hugely popular with his parishioners, young and old alike.

Parishioners in Blackrock and Haggardstown have voiced their support for Fr Brennan who was told by the Church two weeks ago that he would be moved to a different parish in early September.

Angered by the Church's decision, the parishioners went on strike refusing to collect dues or pay over €1 million in debt owed for the refurbishment of their church if the popular priest was removed.

"I know the procedures have to be in place but I don't believe it. He was such a dedicated man. I can't put words on it. It's so awful for him as a person and as a priest," said Blackrock parishioner Vivienne Lamont.

Fidelma Lavelle from Dunmahon said she is "utterly disgusted" by Fr Brennan's removal from the parish.

"The man is distraught. The whole parish is distraught.

Orageman, I am not sure of your take on this. Your comments make it see mlike the congregation have refused to pay Dues and stormed the Sacristy to get the priest out.

My reading of it is they stormed the sacristy to get more details from the Bishop and were refusing to pay becasue the Bishop was going to transfer a popular and well liked Priest?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations.  What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic.  Thats all.

One of my Presbyterian friends from Dublin would strongly disagree with you, she considers herself a Catholic too, but just not R.C.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Pity we couldn't end all religion everywhere, that would be great.

A world without religion probably would result in the better values that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. etc. etc. claim to aspire too becoming a reality as Atheists tend to be the most moral people around from my experience.

[muppet]

Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations.  What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic.  Thats all.

Is that worse than what we will have shortly, a morally bankrupt administration in charge of the Catholic church?

Funny how they ignore the law of the land when it suits (citing loyalty to Canon Law) and then hide behind it when it suits often stating they can't comment for legal reasons.

[Rav67]

Pity we couldn't end all religion everywhere, that would be great.

A world without religion probably would result in the better values that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. etc. etc. claim to aspire too becoming a reality as Atheists tend to be the most moral people around from my experience.

Well the reality is that human values completely guide religion anyway as they evolve rather than the other way around.

The Old Testament God- vengeful, engages in collective punishment, racist.  Over time we realise those aren't very nice things so Christianity tries to ignore them.  We're supposed to live by the Ten Commandments but Christians happily ignore the stuff Moses said about wiping out another people apart from the young virgin females to have for his own wicked way.

Religion's largely a harmless enough thing for most people though so if people want to suspend all rational thought and believe in fairytales then good luck to them!

[ardmhachaabu]

myles, I am not surprised you would be in favour of this but I wouldn't be.  Without going into it, I am sure you know why 

[armaghniac]

If all the RCs joined the COI then we'd be free. It might feck up Drumcree sunday though.

[ardmhachaabu]

armaghniac, you should put Nicky Rackard cup 2010 winners in your signature as well

[orangeman]

This man was given till 6pm last Saturday to pack his bags and go and then we are told he has voluntarily stepped down. It's good to see the people of Blackrock have a bit of back bone when they stormed the sacristy and faced down the Bishop. And more importantly, the parishioners vow there'll be no more dues or envelopes paid. This might be the start of it.




A LOCAL priest who has voluntarily stepped down while the Catholic Church investigates a complaint relating to child safeguarding has said he is "absolutely innocent".


Former Haggardstown-Blackrock Parish Priest Fr Oliver Brennan told The Dundalk Democrat that he would like to comment further, however, he is unable to do so due to legal reasons.

Parishioners were left reeling after Bishop Gerard Clifford made the shock announcement after Mass in Blackrock and Haggardstown last weekend.

Bishop Clifford addressed the congregation in Blackrock about a decision made regarding their parish priest after the 6.30pm mass on Saturday, August 14. He addressed the congregation in Haggardstown at 9am mass the following day.

Speaking at Mass Bishop Clifford said: "This week the Archdiocese has been made aware of a complaint relating to child safeguarding against a priest of the diocese.

"The priest has agreed to voluntarily step down to allow the investigation into this matter to be conducted efficiently. The allegation has been reported to the civil authorities, and the Diocese and the priest will fully cooperate with any investigation. Whilst this process is ongoing the priest is entitled to the benefit of a presumption of innocence."

According to church-goers who were present at the Blackrock Mass when Bishop Clifford was reading the statement, "the church was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop".

Eye-witnesses said that there was "war in the sacristy" after Bishop Clifford had finished the announcement. A number of parishioners verbally challenged the Bishop in the sacristy who told them he was unable to make any additional comment.

A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Armagh told The Dundalk Democrat that he could not comment on where and when the alleged offence was supposed to have occurred.

However, a source claims that the alleged offence is said to have been reported by an anonymous caller, and is said to have occurred over 30 years ago.

Fr Brennan, who originally comes from Edmondstown, Ardee was based in Haggardstown-Blackrock for just over 10 years and is hugely popular with his parishioners, young and old alike.

Parishioners in Blackrock and Haggardstown have voiced their support for Fr Brennan who was told by the Church two weeks ago that he would be moved to a different parish in early September.

Angered by the Church's decision, the parishioners went on strike refusing to collect dues or pay over €1 million in debt owed for the refurbishment of their church if the popular priest was removed.

"I know the procedures have to be in place but I don't believe it. He was such a dedicated man. I can't put words on it. It's so awful for him as a person and as a priest," said Blackrock parishioner Vivienne Lamont.

Fidelma Lavelle from Dunmahon said she is "utterly disgusted" by Fr Brennan's removal from the parish.

"The man is distraught. The whole parish is distraught.

Orageman, I am not sure of your take on this. Your comments make it see mlike the congregation have refused to pay Dues and stormed the Sacristy to get the priest out.

My reading of it is they stormed the sacristy to get more details from the Bishop and were refusing to pay becasue the Bishop was going to transfer a popular and well liked Priest?

No transfer - just told to go. But you're right.