I am prepared to go back to the Irish people

[Zapatista]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1212/eulisbon.html

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has said he will hold a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after receiving assurances at an EU summit in Brussels that it would not threaten Irish domestic policy.

Mr Cowen said: 'On the basis of today's agreement ... I am prepared to go back to the Irish people next year.'

The Taoiseach added that the Government would only decide on a date for a second referendum when certain conditions were finalised to their satisfaction.

EU leaders earlier agreed on assurances to pave the way for a second referendum.

[Rossfan]

Hopefully this time enough people will see sense and vote for it.
Let's give our answer to the 4wd drivers,the lunatic fringe and Ganley and his CIA/Neo Cons - most of whose little empires are now disappearing as reality bites even their virtual worlds.

[Mayo4Sam]

It'll be interesting to see if the No campaigners change their mind, now that we have a commissioner.

I would have been a strong yes man, and given out yards about No people, esp the IFA who were using it as leverage but have to say it looks like the squeaky wheel gets the grease

[Donagh]

Absolutely disgusting decision by Cowan especially since it is essentially the same Treaty that was rejected by the Irish people a few months ago. It's a sad time for Irish democracy when the will of the people has been subverted in order to give away more of our sovereignty to foreign powers.

Hopefully this time enough people will see sense and vote for it.
Let's give our answer to the 4wd drivers,the lunatic fringe and Ganley and his CIA/Neo Cons - most of whose little empires are now disappearing as reality bites even their virtual worlds.

I suppose this is just the start of the campaign we'll see which will attempt to vilify those who voted No in last time out? Well I've no time for Ganley, US Neo Cons or 4wd drivers for that matter, but I've the utmost respect for the good decent people from all walks of life I encountered in rural Wexford, who having missed out on the "Celtic Tiger" boom, still cared enough about this country to be tramping the roads from morning to night in all kinds of weather, because they believe passionately in this country's ability to do better without undue foreign interference. If Cowan and the rest of the  Fianna Fáil Mafiosi had the same courage of conviction they would have put same effort into persuading the Irish people why Lisbon was right for Ireland instead of trying to blackmail them into voting for the Treaty.

[his holiness nb]

Absolutely disgusting decision by Cowan especially since it is essentially the same Treaty that was rejected by the Irish people a few months ago.

But its not the same Donagh, if we keep our commissioner, and get assurances regarding tax and neutrality, that basically takes away the main arguments the no campaign had for voting no last time around.

[Donagh]

As far as I know not one word of the Treaty will be changed. What we get are a series of declarations from other EU states that they'll respect Irish decisions on certain matters. As far as I'm concerned any such promises are have been rendered worthless by the respect our EU 'partners' gave to the decision the Irish people made on theTreaty. For flips sake, we don't even get to pick our own commissioner, but it'll be chosen by the other members. There's got to be a Constitutional challenge in this farce somewhere.

[AFS]

What does a commissioner actually do?

How important is it to have one?

[J70]

What does a commissioner actually do?

How important is it to have one?

Obviously highly important to many people, whatever it is they do!

How much subdividing of portfolios and responsibilities are they doing to fit it all these commissioners as the EU expands?

[Tankie]

As far as I know not one word of the Treaty will be changed. What we get are a series of declarations from other EU states that they'll respect Irish decisions on certain matters. As far as I'm concerned any such promises are have been rendered worthless by the respect our EU 'partners' gave to the decision the Irish people made on theTreaty. For flips sake, we don't even get to pick our own commissioner, but it'll be chosen by the other members. There's got to be a Constitutional challenge in this farce somewhere.

Well the rest of Europe will be moving with or without us, so are you proposing that we pull out of Europe?

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

What does a commissioner actually do?

How important is it to have one?

Obviously highly important to many people, whatever it is they do!

How much subdividing of portfolios and responsibilities are they doing to fit it all these commissioners as the EU expands?

Well sure if ya can split what the 6 county government does into 10 ministers, I'm sure you can get 25 commissioners out of the EU.

[Zapatista]

Absolutely disgusting decision by Cowan especially since it is essentially the same Treaty that was rejected by the Irish people a few months ago.

But its not the same Donagh, if we keep our commissioner, and get assurances regarding tax and neutrality, that basically takes away the main arguments the no campaign had for voting no last time around.

If we get to keep our commissioner it will be for the duration of the next/current Commission only. After that they can do away with it if they want. Any declaration can be changed by the EU court or Parliament. The Lisbon Treaty is a constitution and anything in it's text is constitutional. Anything outside it's text be it declarations or add ons or guarantees can be changed without asking us. Unless it is within the text of the treaty it is at the whim of the EU.

[Hardy]

Well the rest of Europe will be moving with or without us, so are you proposing that we pull out of Europe?

This is the biggest lie of all and seems to be the main plank of the government's campaign again this time. Gobbler Martin seems to get "staying at the heart of Europe" into every fifth sentence.

This is NOT a referendum on  EU membership. This is the people of Ireland being asked to approve proposals on how the EU, of which we are a member and will be staying a member, is run. If we vote no again, this constitution treaty CANNOT be implemented. Europe CANNOT move ahead without us. If they could, don't you think they would already have done so as a result of the last vote?

The government might convince me of the merits of approving this constitution if they tried to persuade me instead of lying to me and trying to bully me.

[Zapatista]

I don't know what "staying at the heart of Europe" means. Can someone explain it? How are we currently at the heart of Europe? If we are at the heart of Europe one would assume we are in a good position for other EU countries to accept our decision on Lisbon. Would the Germans and the French not be thinking - well Ireland is at the heart of Europe and so they should should be listened to re Lisbon. Europeans need to follow their heart aqnd therefore follow Ireland. It seems to be more important to be at the heart of Europe rather than the head of Europe.

[Hound]

The No campaign will be interesting now. Quite clearly the none of the main campaigners are changing their mind despite most or even all of the things being complained about being clarified or rectified.

Neutrality, abortion, conscription, tax all clarified as being in our own hands.

"We're losing our commissioner" cannot be used as a mantra. Of course I don't believe how anybody with any political knowledge could have thought that the revolving commissioner proposals were anything but a good thing. Well done to the No campaign for giving even more opportunties for individuals to create empires for themselves and their cronies, but no matter that debate is done.

Not that any of it matters anyway. The above were all just excuses for voting no, not the reason. The vast majority didnt think any of the above were issues. In my opinion, the No vote was a vote against the government and more importantly a vote against politicians. 

And little has changed in that regard. The likes of Sinn Fein and Libertas will still refuse to give out the real reason as to why they want a No vote, but they will come up with more and different excuses to vote No. Zaptista's line of "on the face of it it looks alright now but beware of what they might do in the future" is one we'll see a lot of I'm sure - not easy to disprove something you might do in the future, regardless of whether its pure fiction or not. The politicians have a huge task ahead of them to persuade the people to Vote Yes. And I doubt very much they are up to it, so we'll get a similar result.

[Zapatista]

The No campaign will be interesting now. Quite clearly the none of the main campaigners are changing their mind despite most or even all of the things being complained about being clarified or rectified.

Neutrality, abortion, conscription, tax all clarified as being in our own hands.

"We're losing our commissioner" cannot be used as a mantra. Of course I don't believe how anybody with any political knowledge could have thought that the revolving commissioner proposals were anything but a good thing. Well done to the No campaign for giving even more opportunties for individuals to create empires for themselves and their cronies, but no matter that debate is done.

Not that any of it matters anyway. The above were all just excuses for voting no, not the reason. The vast majority didnt think any of the above were issues. In my opinion, the No vote was a vote against the government and more importantly a vote against politicians. 

And little has changed in that regard. The likes of Sinn Fein and Libertas will still refuse to give out the real reason as to why they want a No vote, but they will come up with more and different excuses to vote No. Zaptista's line of "on the face of it it looks alright now but beware of what they might do in the future" is one we'll see a lot of I'm sure - not easy to disprove something you might do in the future, regardless of whether its pure fiction or not. The politicians have a huge task ahead of them to persuade the people to Vote Yes. And I doubt very much they are up to it, so we'll get a similar result.

The fact that none of the promises given are included in the treaty means the Eu are not constitutionally bound to uphold them. That is a fact. These declarations will be added on and voted for but they can be overturned in the Dail, the Euro Court or Parliment. If you wish to trust them then that is your choice.

What do you think the real reason Sf and Libertas are calling for a No vote? You make it sound like they have no valid reason.

The main problem is not with the removal of Commissioners. The No side all believe the EU commission is an undemocratic body and the change is merely making it more undemocratic. An entire restructure of the Commission is needed but this was not in the Lisbon treaty. The No side attacked what was in the treaty regarding the commission rather than something which was not in the treaty.

It is not easy to prove something that might happen in the future but it is easy to look at the past and make an educated prediction.