I am prepared to go back to the Irish people

[Gnevin]

What did voting no the last time archive? We where promised the sun ,moon and the stars by no campaigner and all be got was dirty looks from the rest of Europe.

[Tankie]

Well the rest of Europe will be moving with or without us, so are you proposing that we pull out of Europe?

This is the biggest lie of all and seems to be the main plank of the government's campaign again this time. Gobbler Martin seems to get "staying at the heart of Europe" into every fifth sentence.

This is NOT a referendum on  EU membership. This is the people of Ireland being asked to approve proposals on how the EU, of which we are a member and will be staying a member, is run. If we vote no again, this constitution treaty CANNOT be implemented. Europe CANNOT move ahead without us. If they could, don't you think they would already have done so as a result of the last vote?

The government might convince me of the merits of approving this constitution if they tried to persuade me instead of lying to me and trying to bully me.

There are 26 other countries ready to move ahead on this but yes they cannot implement it it without our vote but they can form alliances etc without us. I'm sure if we had of passed this and Malta rejected it we would be looking to move ahead.

Also it is true that the No campaign lied on many many occasions which is not very democratic!

[AZOffaly]

Well the rest of Europe will be moving with or without us, so are you proposing that we pull out of Europe?

This is the biggest lie of all and seems to be the main plank of the government's campaign again this time. Gobbler Martin seems to get "staying at the heart of Europe" into every fifth sentence.

This is NOT a referendum on  EU membership. This is the people of Ireland being asked to approve proposals on how the EU, of which we are a member and will be staying a member, is run. If we vote no again, this constitution treaty CANNOT be implemented. Europe CANNOT move ahead without us. If they could, don't you think they would already have done so as a result of the last vote?

The government might convince me of the merits of approving this constitution if they tried to persuade me instead of lying to me and trying to bully me.

Hardy, just as a matter of interest, what is to stop the EU simply kicking Ireland out of the 'club', especailly if we are seen to be obstructionist? I'm not saying that's a realistic option, but I'm not sure of the arrangements there. For example, if Ireland were to invade Spain, could the EU kick us out then? What are the membership Ts and Cs?

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

What did voting no the last time archive? We where promised the sun ,moon and the stars by no campaigner and all be got was dirty looks from the rest of Europe.

Well you could argue that it achieved the concessions we're discussing on the commissioner, abortion and neutrality.

I have to say I'm uneasy with what's happened as a brand of politics. Its seems the EU are prepared to offer extra assurances to Ireland just to ensure that the treaty isn't derailed. This strikes me as obstructing the general principles of equality of treatment for each nation which should be fundemental to the EU. Why should Ireland get more assurances than any other country? Can't see this going down well in other states, particularly if Ireland is to be treated as the spoilt child of Europe for a lengthy period.

[Donagh]

There are 26 other countries ready to move ahead on this but yes they cannot implement it it without our vote but they can form alliances etc without us. I'm sure if we had of passed this and Malta rejected it we would be looking to move ahead.

Also it is true that the No campaign lied on many many occasions which is not very democratic!

Any countries that have put it to a vote have rejected it. France and the Netherlands in 2005 and Ireland in 2008. Looks like the No campaign have done a favour for democracy.

[Tankie]

There are 26 other countries ready to move ahead on this but yes they cannot implement it it without our vote but they can form alliances etc without us. I'm sure if we had of passed this and Malta rejected it we would be looking to move ahead.

Also it is true that the No campaign lied on many many occasions which is not very democratic!

Any countries that have put it to a vote have rejected it. France and the Netherlands in 2005 and Ireland in 2008. Looks like the No campaign have done a favour for democracy.

No Spain and Luxembourg both passed it. And regardless it is clear that 26 countries are going to pass it now so if we do not why are we in Europe.

This still does not take away from the fact that the No campaign lied through their teeth on alot of issues and will not even tell us where they got their funding from, especially Mr Ganley with his businesses link to the US Military.....

[Hardy]

Well the rest of Europe will be moving with or without us, so are you proposing that we pull out of Europe?

This is the biggest lie of all and seems to be the main plank of the government's campaign again this time. Gobbler Martin seems to get "staying at the heart of Europe" into every fifth sentence.

This is NOT a referendum on  EU membership. This is the people of Ireland being asked to approve proposals on how the EU, of which we are a member and will be staying a member, is run. If we vote no again, this constitution treaty CANNOT be implemented. Europe CANNOT move ahead without us. If they could, don't you think they would already have done so as a result of the last vote?

The government might convince me of the merits of approving this constitution if they tried to persuade me instead of lying to me and trying to bully me.

Hardy, just as a matter of interest, what is to stop the EU simply kicking Ireland out of the 'club', especailly if we are seen to be obstructionist? I'm not saying that's a realistic option, but I'm not sure of the arrangements there. For example, if Ireland were to invade Spain, could the EU kick us out then? What are the membership Ts and Cs?

I don't think they can do that, AZ. We and they are signatories to an international treaty. Apart, as you suggest, from the fact that it's not politically realistic. And the loss of the huge percentage of EU territorial waters that would result.

I think Hound is right that the commonly perceived reasons for voting 'No', as apparently confirmed by the government's much-touted research, are second order issues and simply convenient labels for a more fundamental unease with the constitution. I use the word 'constitution' to illustrate what I mean. People all over Europe see this as a dilution of national sovereignty. That was much more starkly visible when it was presented as a constitution. States have constitutions. Unions of autonomous, sovereign states don't. It's commonly seen as a step towards a United States of Europe and clearly nobody, except the politicians, wants this. The French and the Dutch turned it down. We were able to see through the almost childish renaming of the constitution as a 'treaty' and turned it down as well.

Nationalism, for good or ill, is a powerful force. People do not give up national sovereignty easily. They need to be presented with very powerful incentives to cede even the tiniest increment of national sovereignty. The signal failure of the politicians, throughout Europe,  has been the failure to convince the people of any benefits to be had from this ceding of sovereignty. It's not surprising. There aren't any.

All they can point to is more efficient administration, which at best is seen as simply making life easier for the bureaucrats – not exactly an inspirational concept to stir people to mass support. At worst, it's seen as an erosion of democracy and an investment of more power in the hands of the unelected bureaucrats. Nobody will vote for that.

[Zapatista]

What did voting no the last time archive? We where promised the sun ,moon and the stars by no campaigner and all be got was dirty looks from the rest of Europe.

Such as?

There are 26 other countries ready to move ahead on this but yes they cannot implement it it without our vote but they can form alliances etc without us. I'm sure if we had of passed this and Malta rejected it we would be looking to move ahead.

Also it is true that the No campaign lied on many many occasions which is not very democratic!

For starters it was all ready rejected three times. If Malta rejected it it would be number four.

How did they lie. Did the Yes campaign lie?

 

[Donagh]

No Spain and Luxembourg both passed it. And regardless it is clear that 26 countries are going to pass it now so if we do not why are we in Europe.

This still does not take away from the fact that the No campaign lied through their teeth on alot of issues and will not even tell us where they got their funding from, especially Mr Ganley with his businesses link to the US Military.....

Ganley is not the No campaign. I met many people from different groups who were out campaigning against the Treaty - all funded from their own pockets (myself included).

[Maguire01]

Absolutely disgusting decision by Cowan especially since it is essentially the same Treaty that was rejected by the Irish people a few months ago. It's a sad time for Irish democracy when the will of the people has been subverted in order to give away more of our sovereignty to foreign powers.

But surely the people will be able to return a No vote again, if it's what they really want? Isn't that democracy? Maybe a re-run will remove a lot of the 'protest vote' (although it might also increase it!) and people will actually vote on the referendum, rather than side issues.

At the same time, if it was a Yes vote first time around, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a re-run now!

[Donagh]

But surely the people will be able to return a No vote again, if it's what they really want? Isn't that democracy? Maybe a re-run will remove a lot of the 'protest vote' (although it might also increase it!) and people will actually vote on the referendum, rather than side issues.

At the same time, if it was a Yes vote first time around, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a re-run now!

I suppose I'd have no problem with that so long as we're allowed another vote if the Yes campaign win this time out.

[thejuice]

"People should not be scared of their governments, governments should be scared of their people." Alan Moore

Why exactly is it that we need a Euro government? Why exactly do we need any level of central control? Does it still have to be held as true that if we weren't fiscally connected we might just all decide to start killing each other for resources? Is that how far we have come?

Is there is no need for a European state for there to be free movement between states or freedom of enterprise and trade?
It is a surge for more and more power over the people plain and simple. There is nothing of benefit in the EU that could not have been agreed between member states without the addition of any central control.

There was an old poster I saw in Collins' Barracks museum showing Ireland as a lady as a country in its own right standing tall and dignified and then later as a subject to UK as a lady in rags and tatters. Well this is almost similar situation replacing the UK with the EU Fine we may not fall to ruin but we will only be subjects and our national sovereignty will no longer exist. We are voting on an EU constitution.

f**k Sarkozy and Barroso and Brown and Merkel and Cowen.

and f**k Ganley too!

[Maguire01]

But surely the people will be able to return a No vote again, if it's what they really want? Isn't that democracy? Maybe a re-run will remove a lot of the 'protest vote' (although it might also increase it!) and people will actually vote on the referendum, rather than side issues.

At the same time, if it was a Yes vote first time around, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a re-run now!

I suppose I'd have no problem with that so long as we're allowed another vote if the Yes campaign win this time out.

Quick scenario then:
There's a referendum for a united Ireland. It is marginally defeated. Would you not be in favour of another vote to try and push it through?

And by the same score, if the Yes vote won (first or second time around), would you want it challenged as well?

[Zapatista]

Maybe a re-run will remove a lot of the 'protest vote' (although it might also increase it!) and people will actually vote on the referendum, rather than side issues.

This is another myth. Are you suggesting that those who voted yes did so on the actual content of the treaty rather than that they were recommended to by their chosen party?

Many FG and Labour voters voted No. This is the opposition. What were they protesting against? Many of the Green partys support voted No. What were they protesting against? The No voters seemed to be the most informed of the treaty. Most FF support voted Yes. FF have said they did not campaign properly and didn't have enough people on the doors to explain their message. FF did not inform their supporters yet they still voted Yes. There is more evidence that the side issue you talk about raised the Yes vote rather than the No vote.

[Declan]

Is this the latest No campaign tactic??? 

Roche caught up in armed raid at Wicklow hotel
15/12/2008 - 11:55:27

Six people, including a Government minister and his official driver were today held hostage at gunpoint during a robbery at a hotel and golf resort, the Gardaí confirmed.

Minister for European Affairs Dick Roche was among the group held by three gunmen at the Marriott Hotel at the Druids Glen complex in Co Wicklow.

No shots were fired and nobody was injured during the course of the incident, which happened at around 9.30am.

Mr Roche was approached by the gunman in the main lobby of the Marriott Hotel and the raiders may not have recognised him, his spokesman said.

Father-of-four Mr Roche then had a gun held to his back at the Co Wicklow hotel complex.

The 61-year-old was with his official driver at the time and both were shaken by the incident.

"Mr Roche was returning from a daily swim at the hotel's pool when he was approached from behind and had a gun shoved into his back," said a Garda spokesman.

"He was forced into a room with his driver and other staff members.

"Obviously he is shaken by the incident but is currently helping gardaí with their inquiries."



The raiders escaped with an undisclosed sum of money in a dark-coloured car, gardaí said.

One of the men was armed with a sawn-off shotgun.

"They made their getaway in a darkly coloured car - possibly a Volvo," the spokesman said.

Several thousand euro is understood to have been taken in the robbery.

Mr Roche had been leaving for an engagement in the European Commission offices in Dublin city centre to debate Ireland's future in Europe following last week's summit of EU leaders in Brussels.

After last year's general election, Mr Roche was dropped from the Cabinet and appointed Minister for European Affairs with responsibility of promoting the Lisbon Treaty.

The Druids Glen Golf Resort is located just 30 minutes south of Dublin.

Known as the Augusta of Europe, the resort is home to one of Ireland's leading golf clubs and hosted the Irish Open in the late 1990s.