Another GAA-insider's view on the Maze Stadium

[Donagh]

Tom Kelly OBE, is a former vice chair of the SDLP and currently the MD and majority shareholder of 'Stakeholder Communication', a PR and lobbying company. He has constantly come under fire over the past few years for using his Irish News column to promote his clients interests. He has no connections with the GAA as far as I'm aware.

[Deal_Me_In]

Right now the M1 gets gridlocked when there is a serious accident. How much worse will this be for a midweek match kicking off at, say, 7.45 pm, in bad weather at rush hour?

EG
Getting out of Belfast at rush hour (between 4.30 & 6) to the Maze (i.e along the motorway adjacent to the maze) takes apporx 30-40 mins in general (coming from Dee St, out the M3 towards Bangor). Getting to a match for 7.45 would mean not needing to leave til after 6 (earliest) i.e after rush hour when the motorway would be even more capable of holding the traffic.

Assuming a midweek soccer game with attendance 15000 all travelling by car averaging 3 people per car thats 5000 cars. This is not a major increase in traffic at non peak times for a main road artery to deal with. As most of the fans for these mid week games will be travelling from Belfast (or through Belfast, although all Antrim, Ballymens etc people will come via Aldergrove) there is already better Public Transport facilities and also private Bus companies will reduce the number of vehicles attending these midweek games even further. The 7K parking spaces already stated by PWC covers the soccer and rugby crowd so it is only the GAA fans that need to be overly concerned by parking, and as can be seen from this discussion (and previous ones) it can be clearly seen that we are not.

[SammyG]

Assuming a midweek soccer game with attendance 15000 all travelling by car averaging 3 people per car thats 5000 cars.

Excellent strategy, take a crowd size that is unsustainable (football would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) and then use it to back up your argument. And also totally ignore the facts that government policy is to take cars off the road not increase the numbers and the fact that, at least, 10% of the fans at a football match will be away fans who won't be driving.

[Deal_Me_In]

Assuming a midweek soccer game with attendance 15000 all travelling by car averaging 3 people per car thats 5000 cars.

Excellent strategy, take a crowd size that is unsustainable (football would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) and then use it to back up your argument. And also totally ignore the facts that government policy is to take cars off the road not increase the numbers and the fact that, at least, 10% of the fans at a football match will be away fans who won't be driving.

I has taking the figures on slightly more than the attendances of the games currently at windsor, but ok take 30K supporters (which i think is overly optimistic), 10% away fans(minimum by your statement) not travelling by car that leaves 27000, another 15% travel by public transport or private bus leaves 22500 averaging 3 per car still leaves needing 7500 spaces. Im confident that an extra 500 parking spaces could be made available.

Regading the government policy about taking cars off the road then you can increase the number of prople travelling by public transport and private bus and this further reduces the number of car parking spaces required.

[snatter]

Assuming a midweek soccer game with attendance 15000 all travelling by car averaging 3 people per car thats 5000 cars.

Excellent strategy, take a crowd size that is unsustainable (football would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) ........

SammyG,

Have you any proof of your claim that "football(sic) would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) "?

I would be aMAZEd if you had, for the SIB document which you consistently claim to to have read, puts forward two different charging models.
The first is effectively a PAYG, and the second is a minimum base rental level, with pecentage increase above that level (just as the GAA rent out Croekr to soccer and rugby).

And the SIB document doesn't actually mention what the possible charging levels will be, nor which model will operate.
Rather it states that they would have to be agreed by the stadium board and all three sports bodies as part of the operating terms and conditions.

To the best of my knowledge, discussion is still ongoing to finalise these operating t&c's. The recent IRFU statement confirmed this. The same statement also siad that they welcomed a 19k lower tier capacity, as it suited ther crowds. The assumption must be made therefore that 19k is a workable, financially viable figure for the Ulster Branch, so why wouldn't it work for the IFA?

If, uncharacteristically, you actually have clear unambiguous proof to back up your statement, then go ahead and share it with us. I would be most interested to know how you have managed to obtain details of operating and rental costs, when they are allegedly still under discussion.

BTw, I'm still waiting for you to illustrate your claim of £750kpa rental cost to the GAA.
As I have continually stated, its not contained in the SIB, not do there appear to be any costings, assumptions, calculations which could be used to calculate any such figure.
Again, if you prove otehrwise, then post figures, calculations, etc to substantiate.

And BTW, I'm still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that the GAA receives more govt funding than the GAA.

And BTW, I'm still waiting for you to provide me with a traffic engineers report on accessing the Maze, which you claimed to have some time ago.

Of course it is possible that no proof exists for any of the outlandish statements that you make, but somehow never manage to back up with any proof.

[SammyG]

Excellent strategy, take a crowd size that is unsustainable (football would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) ........

SammyG,

Have you any proof of your claim that "football(sic) would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) "?

I would be aMAZEd if you had, for the SIB document which you consistently claim to to have read, puts forward two different charging models.
The first is effectively a PAYG, and the second is a minimum base rental level, with pecentage increase above that level (just as the GAA rent out Croekr to soccer and rugby).

snatter

For the umpteenth time. The SIB were asked to provide figures to go along with the report. The figures where 750K for GAA, 500K for football and 250K for rugby. These were provided by the SIB at the various Maze roadshows and were also released by the Maze Development Panel under FoI requests. There will be no option for PAYG for the 3 sports, PAYG will only be available for 'one off' uses such as concerts.

As far as your other questions, read back through the dozens of other threads, as I really can't be arsed to keep answering the same questions over and over again, just because you don't like the answers.

[snatter]

Excellent strategy, take a crowd size that is unsustainable (football would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) ........

SammyG,

Have you any proof of your claim that "football(sic) would need to be attracting 25-30K minimum to pay for the Maze) "?

I would be aMAZEd if you had, for the SIB document which you consistently claim to to have read, puts forward two different charging models.
The first is effectively a PAYG, and the second is a minimum base rental level, with pecentage increase above that level (just as the GAA rent out Croekr to soccer and rugby).

snatter

For the umpteenth time. The SIB were asked to provide figures to go along with the report. The figures where 750K for GAA, 500K for football and 250K for rugby. These were provided by the SIB at the various Maze roadshows and were also released by the Maze Development Panel under FoI requests. There will be no option for PAYG for the 3 sports, PAYG will only be available for 'one off' uses such as concerts.

As far as your other questions, read back through the dozens of other threads, as I really can't be arsed to keep answering the same questions over and over again, just because you don't like the answers.

SammyG,

can you see why people might appreciate some proof that somebody at the SIB said something to one of your mates at a meeting. Otherwise, we just have your word to go on that they did.

And in the past, your word actually hasn't actually amounted to much.

Quite simply - you DID NOT provide any proof that the GAA got more govt funding than the IFA. All available figures showed that the IFA got more.
Quite simply - you DID NOT provide any traffic engineers report on the MAze desite claiming that you had one that backed your phoney arguments over M1 capacity.

You have on several ocassions been exposed as a liar and a fantasist.
The most recent example is earlier within this thread when you insisted that SIB costings for refurnishing Casement were based on UEFA standards.

[SammyG]

Fcuk me this is getting tedious.

can you see why people might appreciate some proof that somebody at the SIB said something to one of your mates at a meeting. Otherwise, we just have your word to go on that they did.

Where the fcuk did I say anything about one of my mates in a meeting? It was the Maze roadshow presentations, which were public and held all across the country.

And in the past, your word actually hasn't actually amounted to much.

This from the man who invents magical invisible roads to make his arguments add up. 

Quite simply - you DID NOT provide any proof that the GAA got more govt funding than the IFA. All available figures showed that the IFA got more.

I can't be arsed digging through the figures again but it was something like £3m to the IFA and over £5m to the GAA

Quite simply - you DID NOT provide any traffic engineers report on the MAze desite claiming that you had one that backed your phoney arguments over M1 capacity.

Here you go, for the umpteenth time

Transport

"Roads Service is already spending £30-50million upgrading roads in the area whether the stadium goes ahead or not. It isn't an extra cost"

Tony Whitehead, SIB

The Belfast Metropolitan Transport Plan (BMTP) and The Regional Strategic Transport Network Transport Plan (RSTNTP) set out what will be needed and what is desired for transport in the Greater Belfast area. Both focus on the need for more integrated transport and for the need for people to have more travel options, e.g. walking and cycle routes.

What's transport like to Belfast?

The M1, M2, M3, M5 and major 'A roads' all meet in central Belfast. All rail lines lead to Belfast. More bus routes facilitate Belfast than anywhere else in Northern Ireland. Two airports and the sea port also serve the city. Belfast truly is the transport hub for Northern Ireland.

And to the Maze?

The Maze was a good location for a prison. In a rural location, 3km from the nearest city, it lies beside the M1 but has no junction onto it. With no rail link (and none planned) it will rely on visitors coming by car or coach and the need for a junction to be added.



How much will transport upgrades cost?

Any junction will cost around £20million and is not included in the current Roads Service construction plans.Tony Whitehead also said that a link road was to be constructed, which would enable greater access to the site from the North West. Again, this road is only dependent on private development in the area and "(private) developers will be responsible for funding the scheme either in full or in a very substantial part". This is estimated at £11.8million and the cost will have to be met by the developer.

For a stadium at the Maze then, additional road infrastructure will cost at least another £30million – is this to be added to the £85million that it is costing so far taking the cost beyond £115million? Roads Service is not spending this money already as Mr. Whitehead claimed. Also, these roads costs are only estimates at a 2003 level – the actual cost may be much higher by the time development starts in 2007.

In contrast, proposed locations in Belfast are already well served by road, rail and bus. The City Airport is 1km from the Titanic Quarter; 2km from Maysfield and Ormeau Park; and approximately 4km from the North Foreshore.

The Port of Belfast is even closer as are rail and bus interchanges. Any transport upgrades for Belfast already have budgets allocated, including the widening of the Sydenham Bypass to three lanes in either direction, making that site even more plausible.

How will we get to the Maze?

The Regional Development Strategy states that in 1999, 30% of the population did not have a car – with public transport non-existent to the Maze, how are any of these people supposed to get there?

It is unlikely that public transport will bring people to the Maze without going via Belfast or other neighbouring transport hubs. Will buses depart from the Maze stadium after a midweek match to the furthest corners of the province? If people have to connect via Belfast etc, it may be too late to get home if they live far away.

The Government has highlighted the need for greater access to major facilities for pedestrians and cyclists. These would exist in Belfast but it is very hard to see how pedestrians will access the Maze site without a long journey beforehand.

Even if public transport is arranged to the Maze, it cannot get 40,000 people to a single site outside Belfast. With trains running 2-3km away, scores of buses would be needed to take fans to the stadium site. Add these to the thousands trying to get into the site in cars and mass congestion is sure to follow. Leaving afterwards will be a similar nightmare and visions of mile long queues of cars can evoke the 'tail-gate' culture at out-of-town US stadiums.

Government transport policy actively encourages alternatives to private car use. The new stadium proposal runs contrary to this.

'But it's only the same distance as Trafalgar Square is to Wembley!'

The major difference is that Wembley is not in a rural location with one main road in and one out. It is well served by multiple road, rail and bus routes. London is a large metropolis with a long history of staging major events and handling huge volumes of traffic and people. Few cities in the world can cope with events such as the Olympics, but London's recent successful tender highlights it's preeminence amongst cities globally. To compare a regional city is facetious.

As for Wembley, if the example is being given by Government, why aren't we getting the same level of public transport investment?

To facilitate the journeys of spectators, £70m is being invested to ensure visitors to Wembley can move smoothly and safely to and from the stations. There will be 100 trains moving 37,500 people per hour on event days.

The Government is not planning for this here. The RSNTP allocates £10.1million for inter city bus routes until 2015. This is for all of Northern Ireland yet it is only a fraction of the money being spent to bring 21st Century public transport to the new stadium at Wembley.

You have on several ocassions been exposed as a liar and a fantasist.
The most recent example is earlier within this thread when you insisted that SIB costings for refurnishing Casement were based on UEFA standards.

Are you taking the piss? The figures quoted are to bring it up to the required standard, the required stadard that was being discussed was the UEFA standard, just because you can't read two paragraphs doesn't make me a liar. Casement already complies with existing legislation so if it isn't UEFA regulations then what else would it need to comply with?

[nifan]

There is a PAYG involved, with minimum yearly amounts.
The figures sammy has said is what was said at the time GAA 750K, IFA 500K, UR 250K.

If takings go above a threshold then a percentage will come into play.

These figures may not be 100% correct but this was the definate model that whitehead said will be used for the stadium.

[snatter]

There is a PAYG involved, with minimum yearly amounts.
The figures sammy has said is what was said at the time GAA 750K, IFA 500K, UR 250K.

If takings go above a threshold then a percentage will come into play.

These figures may not be 100% correct but this was the definate model that whitehead said will be used for the stadium.

They may well be correct, but I want to see proof.

There has been so much scaremongering fiction thrown around by Sammy et al, that we need to see proof.

I've googled and can't find anything that mentions the GAA paying  750k, or even any allusion or hint to it.

At first glance £750k seems like a lot - currently, the GAA would typically pay 10% to the home ground.
On a crowd of 32k at Clones, I'm guessing that would probably amount to somewhere aroung 40k per match.

If, however, Ulster GAA were to finance a new 40k+ stadium, two thirds seated and covered as per is strategic target, I guess that it would have to take a loan of at least £40/50Million.
Interst alone would be itro £3Million a year, never mind repayming it.

In that context, 750k seems a bit of a bargain.

[Main Street]

The Stadium plan is dependant on the 3 sports bodies participating. The Maze is the only plan that fulfills that.
The Belfast alternative presented in the final days of some deadline does not mention the GAA and Rugby participation or viewpoints, nor does it have any costings or income figures.

From the PWC report
As far as I can make out there is a finance issue of the link road and Junction. I understand that if the 3 sports bodies put pen to paper then the Gov are obliged to build the stadium and the infrastructure at the same time.
The infrastructure costs are big.
The figure of £20m for a Junctiont  and £11m for a link rd are not from the PWC report

In the PWC report
approx  £5m for a car park  (will generate income @ £2 - £3 parking fee)
approx £53 m for  all other infrastructure.
If that is accurate then Infrastructure is about 50% of the stadium const. costs.
Total cost for a 42k seats is £167m
I don´t know whats involved with this  £53m
If the motorway was being built now and the stadium was already in place, then a Junction and Link road would be constructed without anyone batting an eyelid.

[Evil Genius]

The Stadium plan is dependant on the 3 sports bodies participating. The Maze is the only plan that fulfills that.

It is dependant only because the last Admiinistration said it must be - there is no Natural Law which says it should be so.

Now we have a new Government/PM, plus a restored devolved administration at Stormont.

Moreover, it is becoming ever more evident that none of the three sports is actually very keen on the Maze Stadium, but for various reasons, cannot or will not say so.

On top of which, as the evidence mounts that a single "shared" stadium at the Maze is not financially justifiable or even viable, opposition from all quarters is continuing to mount.

As the years go by without a single brick being laid, I personally am ever more optimistic that someone in authority (the Exchequer? Gordon Brown's Office? Even Peter Robinson?) will finally see sense and pull the plug on this whole misguided, wasteful White Elephant.

[snatter]

The Stadium plan is dependant on the 3 sports bodies participating. The Maze is the only plan that fulfills that.

It is dependant only because the last Admiinistration said it must be - there is no Natural Law which says it should be so.

Now we have a new Government/PM, plus a restored devolved administration at Stormont.

Moreover, it is becoming ever more evident that none of the three sports is actually very keen on the Maze Stadium, but for various reasons, cannot or will not say so.

On top of which, as the evidence mounts that a single "shared" stadium at the Maze is not financially justifiable or even viable, opposition from all quarters is continuing to mount.

As the years go by without a single brick being laid, I personally am ever more optimistic that someone in authority (the Exchequer? Gordon Brown's Office? Even Peter Robinson?) will finally see sense and pull the plug on this whole misguided, wasteful White Elephant.

EG,

can you provide any proof for your assertion that

it is becoming ever more evident that

none of the three sports the GAA is no longer

very keen on the Maze Stadium, but for various reasons, cannot or will not say so.

The most recent statements from the GAA's Ulster Secretary don't give any indication of a position shift.