Another GAA-insider's view on the Maze Stadium

[Donagh]

Sammy you're just being silly now. Besides the fact that the M1 is a leap and a bound over the fence away from the perimeter wall of the Blocks there are three other roads surrounding the complex all of a better standard to the tractor paths around Clones (look it up on Google maps if you don't believe me – or even better ask Gerry Kelly). Are you seriously trying to say that building a few links roads and slipways would be a major stumbling block to the stadium development? FFS the Carrickdale Hotel are building their own slipway onto the latest extension of the M1 at the border.

[mikerob]

Your comparison with Twickewnham is total bullshit, since there are literally dozens of trunk routes, dual carriageways and 6 lane Motorways which can get drivers to and from Twickenham. Moreover, there are thousands of car parking spaces available just across the A316* from the Ground. Plus there are any number of bars and refreshment facitlities both within and near the ground itself, to allow fans to stagger their journey times, unlike the Maze. Plus there is a main Railway line, with two stations, which is in easy walking distance of Twickenham. Additionally, the Piccadilly Line Tube runs almost as close to the Stadium as the NIR rail line is to the Maze at its closest point. Plus there is an extensive Bus Service serving that part of SW London seven days a week (augmented on matchdays)

And still it takes hours to get to and from Twickenham on matchdays, which is why they limit the number of events allowed to be staged there.

P.S. Have you ever actually attended a game at Twickenham?


* - The A316, like the (so-called) M1 in NI, is actually a dual carriageway, with the same number of lanes (more in places). It passes within 150 yards of Twickenham.

Pedestrians have got to cross the A316 to get from Twickenham Railway station to the stadium so before and after a game, traffic on this road is at a total standstlll.  It may be a dual carriageway but because the majority of pedestrians leaving the stadium have to cross it, it is useless as a trunk route to get cars away from the stadium to the M3/M4 for some time after a big game.

Events are restricted at Twickenham because the stadium is in a primarily residential area and big events cause a lot of inconvenience to residents - there are controlled parking zones, you can't easily drive in and out of the area, thousands of people walk down your road if you live on a route to the ground, people who've had too much to drink relieving themselves in your driveway, litter from fast food joints all over the place.... Its a wealthy area, the residents are organised and have the local borough's ear if they reckon things are going too far.

The closest comparison in Belfast would be Ravenhill where the local residents are none too thrilled by the large increase in attendances and the number of Ulster Rugby matches over the last 5 years.  That is why there is very little chance of any significant expansion of Ravenhill's capacity.

[snatter]

Your comparison with Twickewnham is total bullshit, since there are literally dozens of trunk routes, dual carriageways and 6 lane Motorways which can get drivers to and from Twickenham. Moreover, there are thousands of car parking spaces available just across the A316* from the Ground. Plus there are any number of bars and refreshment facitlities both within and near the ground itself, to allow fans to stagger their journey times, unlike the Maze. Plus there is a main Railway line, with two stations, which is in easy walking distance of Twickenham. Additionally, the Piccadilly Line Tube runs almost as close to the Stadium as the NIR rail line is to the Maze at its closest point. Plus there is an extensive Bus Service serving that part of SW London seven days a week (augmented on matchdays)

And still it takes hours to get to and from Twickenham on matchdays, which is why they limit the number of events allowed to be staged there.

P.S. Have you ever actually attended a game at Twickenham?


* - The A316, like the (so-called) M1 in NI, is actually a dual carriageway, with the same number of lanes (more in places). It passes within 150 yards of Twickenham.

Pedestrians have got to cross the A316 to get from Twickenham Railway station to the stadium so before and after a game, traffic on this road is at a total standstlll.  It may be a dual carriageway but because the majority of pedestrians leaving the stadium have to cross it, it is useless as a trunk route to get cars away from the stadium to the M3/M4 for some time after a big game.

Events are restricted at Twickenham because the stadium is in a primarily residential area and big events cause a lot of inconvenience to residents - there are controlled parking zones, you can't easily drive in and out of the area, thousands of people walk down your road if you live on a route to the ground, people who've had too much to drink relieving themselves in your driveway, litter from fast food joints all over the place.... Its a wealthy area, the residents are organised and have the local borough's ear if they reckon things are going too far.

The closest comparison in Belfast would be Ravenhill where the local residents are none too thrilled by the large increase in attendances and the number of Ulster Rugby matches over the last 5 years.  That is why there is very little chance of any significant expansion of Ravenhill's capacity.

Ormeau Park wouldn't be too far away as a comparison either.

The point i was making to EG was that if the fans of both northern RL teams had exited along a purpose built slipway to a stadium at Luton, then both the fans and the residents of west london would have been spared the appalling congestion.

The same argument applies for 42k fans driving into belfast - it would be far better for everybody if they drove to the maze instead.

[Evil Genius]

The point i was making to EG was that if the fans of both northern RL teams had exited along a purpose built slipway to a stadium at Luton, then both the fans and the residents of west london would have been spared the appalling congestion.

The same argument applies for 42k fans driving into belfast - it would be far better for everybody if they drove to the maze instead.

Twickenham wasn't suddenly plonked down in the middle of SW London all of a sudden, it was actually there as a rugby field before the area became heavily built up, and taffic management and access etc was developed as the stadium was developed. Moreover, even if there was never a stadium there, the area would still need (and in fact has) a transport infrastructure (both public and private) to allow commerce and commuting etc to, through and from Twickenham and South West London.
More importantly, virtuslly all big matches take place during the day on Saturdays and Sundays, when traffic is lightest and conditions (weather and daylight) is most favourable. When they do have a rare midweek game which draws a big crowd (e.g. the Varsity match), it has to have an early afternoon kick-off.
Consequently, even if Twickenham were remotely otherwise comparable to the Maze (which it isn't, imo), they don't have to cope with even matches in midweek, like soccer and rugby here in NI.

And even if the Maze can surmount these problems, there still remains the problem of where to park up to 16,800 cars (your figure), when C&L can only come up with 7k spaces. The other 7k spaces referred to simply will not be built, since at no stage in the 2 years since this Report has anyone, either in the Consultants, the Government, the politicians or Translink itself has even suggested that this Park & Ride scheme will happen, or that anyone has the means or will to fund it.

[Evil Genius]

Another opinion piece on the Stadium, this time from Tom Kelly in yesterday's Irish News (abridged to exclude non-Stadium comment):

"Nevertheless while the silliness may have gone out of the marching season it certainly hasn't gone from the political one. In the last week before the end of term, the saga of the stadium that dare not speak its name continues. The beleaguered minister for fun can't be enjoying the job too much at the moment as, in the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby, he 'bravely' battles on for his beloved Maze/Long Kesh project. The wisdom of appointing someone who sat on the Maze consultation panel as minister with responsibility for deciding on the fate of the project was as much of a folly as the decision to have the stadium at the Maze in the first place.

Those who oppose the Maze project are described as rejecting a gift horse in the mouth. But in reality the lack of strategic thought that has gone into this project, combined with the bullying tactics of the Northern Ireland Office ministers and their so-called strategic advisers, has resulted in people being wary of Greeks bearing gifts.

The toadying behaviour of the three main sporting bodies is unbelievable. The position of the GAA's Ulster Council is at total odds with the democratic nature of the organisation. No grass-roots consultation has taken place on this issue and it is time for a bit more transparency and openness from its spokespeople as listening to the so-called clarifications was embarrassing.

The position of the IFA is even more ridiculous. The vast majority of those who support the Northern Ireland team support a stadium in Belfast. Who could imagine Ikea deciding to locate its new premises in Cookstown just because it looks like a central place on a map of Northern Ireland? Ulster Rugby sees itself more and more as the Alliance Party of sport and wants to please all comers especially the government.

It is time to put this whole sorry project out of its misery. Minister Edwin Poots has enough on his plate – his main business struggles for funds and some believe that the recent 'cap in hand' Smithsonian tour was as much about passing the hat around some American philanthropists as it was about promoting Northern Ireland. The Maze is no longer the elephant in the executive room that people can ignore. Besides, I would like to think that we have better spending priorities over the next five years than a controversial stadium – especially one where the feasibility and business plan followed the decision to go ahead"


I agree entirely with his comment on the ridiculous stance taken by the IFA. Do GAA fans concur with his opinion over the GAA's stance?

[snatter]

The point i was making to EG was that if the fans of both northern RL teams had exited along a purpose built slipway to a stadium at Luton, then both the fans and the residents of west london would have been spared the appalling congestion.

The same argument applies for 42k fans driving into belfast - it would be far better for everybody if they drove to the maze instead.

..................More importantly, virtuslly all big matches take place during the day on Saturdays and Sundays, when traffic is lightest and conditions (weather and daylight) is most favourable...................

...Consequently, even if Twickenham were remotely otherwise comparable to the Maze (which it isn't, imo), they don't have to cope with even matches in midweek, like soccer and rugby here in NI.

And even if the Maze can surmount these problems, there still remains the problem of where to park up to 16,800 cars (your figure).................

Evil,

your genious is letting you down here.

My illustration of crowds DRIVING to an urban stadium deliberatley used the example of 50k rugby league fans coming down to watch the Challenge Cup last year.

This was the closest parallel I could think of to 42k GAA fans DRIVING to an intra Belfast stadium.

Most of the RL fans came by road, presumable because there weren' fast / cheap enough trains from Barnsley or Wigan, or wherever it was. Again, a parallel to GAA fans having to drive into Belfast, all from the same direction.

There was complete gridlock across the whole of North and South West London.
I should know - I was there at the time, trying to travel northbound from Richmond to Hendon. Southbound RL fans were just as gridlocked as I was. It was crap for both ordinary and match traffic, with gridlock extending for many miles back on the M1 itself.
And this was a Saturday from what I remember.

The point i have been repeatedly making, but you fail (or are unable) to acknowledge is that it would have been to everyones benefit that day if the match was taking place at some other stadium, located just off the M1, to the north of London.
Both west London commuters, and RL fans would have been spared the congestion.

To address your subsidiary points:

On the basis of soccer attendances, I don't think you'd have to worry too much about getting 42k for a midweek match.
But on the rare occassion that you would, taking 16000 country bound cars off the M1 would be no different from taking 16000 GAA cars coming from the other direction.

As already stated in my most recent posts within this thread, there's no problem getting any extra land required for a few thousnad more parking spaces - the current site only takes up 20% of the available land.
A lot of the public transport stuff with any of these developemnts is very often only PR, pseudo environmentally friendly window dressing that gets kicked into touch very quickly, once everyone agrees that most people in NI will always be forced to travel by car. I remember they talked a fair deal about putting a train station at teh back of the Canal End, but of course it never happened once PP was obtained.
My own personal opinion is that they'll drop the P&R, and that space will simply become more parking.

[snatter]

Another opinion piece on the Stadium, this time from Tom Kelly in yesterday's Irish News (abridged to exclude non-Stadium comment):

"Nevertheless while the silliness may have gone out of the marching season it certainly hasn't gone from the political one. In the last week before the end of term, the saga of the stadium that dare not speak its name continues. The beleaguered minister for fun can't be enjoying the job too much at the moment as, in the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby, he 'bravely' battles on for his beloved Maze/Long Kesh project. The wisdom of appointing someone who sat on the Maze consultation panel as minister with responsibility for deciding on the fate of the project was as much of a folly as the decision to have the stadium at the Maze in the first place.

Those who oppose the Maze project are described as rejecting a gift horse in the mouth. But in reality the lack of strategic thought that has gone into this project, combined with the bullying tactics of the Northern Ireland Office ministers and their so-called strategic advisers, has resulted in people being wary of Greeks bearing gifts.

The toadying behaviour of the three main sporting bodies is unbelievable. The position of the GAA's Ulster Council is at total odds with the democratic nature of the organisation. No grass-roots consultation has taken place on this issue and it is time for a bit more transparency and openness from its spokespeople as listening to the so-called clarifications was embarrassing.

The position of the IFA is even more ridiculous. The vast majority of those who support the Northern Ireland team support a stadium in Belfast. Who could imagine Ikea deciding to locate its new premises in Cookstown just because it looks like a central place on a map of Northern Ireland? Ulster Rugby sees itself more and more as the Alliance Party of sport and wants to please all comers especially the government.

It is time to put this whole sorry project out of its misery. Minister Edwin Poots has enough on his plate – his main business struggles for funds and some believe that the recent 'cap in hand' Smithsonian tour was as much about passing the hat around some American philanthropists as it was about promoting Northern Ireland. The Maze is no longer the elephant in the executive room that people can ignore. Besides, I would like to think that we have better spending priorities over the next five years than a controversial stadium – especially one where the feasibility and business plan followed the decision to go ahead"


I agree entirely with his comment on the ridiculous stance taken by the IFA. Do GAA fans concur with his opinion over the GAA's stance?

Your question (it all its repetitious guises) has been answered many many many times here before.

1. Generally, we're not exactly worked up about the whole thing like you shower of soon-to-be-homeless desperadoes.

2. If the stadium is to be a runner, we had better be a part of it. Our status as the best attended sport here demands it.

3. It needs to be big enough to hold the crowds that we attract.

4. We would definately make good use of it - our stadia are pretty poor, and we will soon have ot decide where to build a 40k plus, two thirds seated & covered stadium.

5. We would prefer the Maze location over Belfast becasue it is closer to where our fanbase reside. And would probably minimise congestion (see previous post).

and btw, Tom Kelly conveniently ommits to mention that this is non transferable UK Treasury funding.
Its not for any NI minister to reallocate to anything else.
Imho, Gordon would probably redirect it to more grateful Scots.

[Evil Genius]

Evil,

your genious is letting you down here.

My illustration of crowds DRIVING to an urban stadium deliberatley used the example of 50k rugby league fans coming down to watch the Challenge Cup last year.

This was the closest parallel I could think of to 42k GAA fans DRIVING to an intra Belfast stadium.

Most of the RL fans came by road, presumable because there weren' fast / cheap enough trains from Barnsley or Wigan, or wherever it was. Again, a parallel to GAA fans having to drive into Belfast, all from the same direction.

There was complete gridlock across the whole of North and South West London.
I should know - I was there at the time, trying to travel northbound from Richmond to Hendon. Southbound RL fans were just as gridlocked as I was. It was crap for both ordinary and match traffic, with gridlock extending for many miles back on the M1 itself.
And this was a Saturday from what I remember.

The point i have been repeatedly making, but you fail (or are unable) to acknowledge is that it would have been to everyones benefit that day if the match was taking place at some other stadium, located just off the M1, to the north of London.
Both west London commuters, and RL fans would have been spared the congestion.

To address your subsidiary points:

On the basis of soccer attendances, I don't think you'd have to worry too much about getting 42k for a midweek match.
But on the rare occassion that you would, taking 16000 country bound cars off the M1 would be no different from taking 16000 GAA cars coming from the other direction.

As already stated in my most recent posts within this thread, there's no problem getting any extra land required for a few thousnad more parking spaces - the current site only takes up 20% of the available land.
A lot of the public transport stuff with any of these developemnts is very often only PR, pseudo environmentally friendly window dressing that gets kicked into touch very quickly, once everyone agrees that most people in NI will always be forced to travel by car. I remember they talked a fair deal about putting a train station at teh back of the Canal End, but of course it never happened once PP was obtained.
My own personal opinion is that they'll drop the P&R, and that space will simply become more parking.

You misunderstand my point entirely re Twickenham, which was that if a large rugby crowd (mostly, but not all, travelling by car) can cause gridlock in West London when there are so many road and public transport alternatives in and around the stadium (plus amenities to cause them to stagger their arrival and departure), then how much congestion will there be for a big crowd all converging by car via one, single Motorway spur to the Maze?
It's called a bottleneck.
Right now the M1 gets gridlocked when there is a serious accident. How much worse will this be for a midweek match kicking off at, say, 7.45 pm, in bad weather at rush hour?

As for your subsidiary points, low crowds following congestion become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And it is not a case of anyone "dropping the P&R", since there has never been any plan, budget or intention for anything of the sort. And that being so, the vacant space will not magically "become more parking" - by C&L's 2005 figures, it costs £1k per space to provide parking space at the Maze, so anyone building will have to come up with another £7m for that alone (before inflation).

[Evil Genius]

Your question (it all its repetitious guises) has been answered many many many times here before.

It is observers like Kelly, who are not within the GAA's Head Office, who are beginning to become repetitious i.e. they are increasingly questioning the wisdom of the whole project. And I'm pleased (impressed) to say that the Irish News has been a rare exception within NI media in taking a questioning editorial position, rather than slavishly rehashing NIO Press Releases ad nauseum (BBC NI and B.Telegraph being the worst offenders)

[snatter]

EG,

you misunderstand my point entirely re Twickenham,

Er, sorry, but you're still refusing to acknowledge my specific example of how Twickenham match day traffic snarled up a whole urban area this day last year. That's why we're talking about Twickenham. That's the only point I was making - how much better it would have been for me and tens of thousnands of other poor souls if the match day traffic had never entered an already congested urban area.
Start answering that.

----------------------

To the best of my knowledge, Tom Kelly is a newspaper editor and doesn't take much to do with the GAA decision making process.
He hasn't even started to address the issue of how the GAA should develop stadia within Ulster, whether we should pay for a new 40k+ stadium ourselves, or get one for no capital outlay. No mention of our substandard, bare uncovered concrete bowls.
If he'd got wet a few times this year watching some matches, he might form an opinion on the quality of our grounds soon enough.

He could also enhance the debate by digging out the IN's 1984 archive - I distinctly recall a front page headline protesting about NI soccer getting a brand new stadium while the GAA got nothing, despite our larger crowds standing on unsafe wet grass banks.

As said before, no mention either that this is one-off legacy funding from UK treasury - use it or lose it.

------------------

low crowds following congestion become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You're having a laugh - what self-fulfilling prophecy do you blame for your current low crowds? On your current figures, its certainly not congestion anyway.

--------------

Re car parking, ancillary costs, etc - its either the Maze or nothing as far as I can see.
In three years, your mob have failed to come up with any neutral affordable Belfast site acceptable to all three governing bodies.
I'd love to see how much it would cost to buy a site in Belfast that could hold the 16k parking spaces that we need.

[Main Street]

From the article  by Tom Kelly
"The position of the GAA's Ulster Council is at total odds with the democratic nature of the organisation. No grass-roots consultation has taken place on this issue and it is time for a bit more transparency and openness from its spokespeople as listening to the so-called clarifications was embarrassing."

Do GAA fans concur with his opinion over the GAA's stance?

I don't know what clarifications Kelly is referring to.

It could well be that the Ulster GAA council is acting executivly.
I find on this board there is a general agreement with the Ulster Council's position.
The overall tone of the article is mildly mocking at everyone involved.
His alternative is to forget it. My opinion is that this article has nothing to offer to the debate.

Already the unbuilt new Landsdowne rd capacity is too small at 55,000. Could easily have done with 65,000 - 75,000. How much usage?  6 rugby and 6 soccer internationals.
Leinster rugby can use 20-25,000 now and again. And only 2 or 3 concerts p/a are allowed.

Location of the Maze is not perfect for soccer. Honestly, the IFA are in a weak position.
After a few trips abroad fans might be in a more positive frame of mind about a 10 mile trip.






 

[GweylTah]

So would this Tom Kelly fella in the Irish News be a GAA insider or a clueless Outsider?

[snatter]

So would this Tom Kelly fella in the Irish News be a GAA insider or a clueless Outsider?

"this Tom Kelly fella" is the editor of the Irish News.
I'm not aware that he has taken any active involvement in the GAA, or is even a member.
His profile beyond the Irish News tends to be as a commentator on political affairs - I can't recall him ever commenting on the GAA.
Maybe somebody out there can enlighten us.

On that basis, I probably wouldn't describe him as a GAA insider.
I would imagine he would have some knowledge of the GAA and its workings, so he wouldn't be completely clueless either.

Regardless, as Main Street says, in his opinion piece he has offered no analysis of either the GAA's (or for that matter soccer/rugby's ) needs, nor has he some up with any alternative proposition.
He may fall into the "why should we spend any of this money on sport when there's better things to spend it on" camp. Again other people might have an idea.

[GweylTah]

The Editor of the Irish News is Noel Doran.

Are you an Irish News insider or Outsider, Snatter?

[snatter]

The Editor of the Irish News is Noel Doran.

Are you an Irish News insider or Outsider, Snatter?

Yep, now you mention Noel Doran, I realise its my mistake.
I just googled Kelly - he's listed in the Irish News site as being editorial staff, is (an ex?) communications director for the SDLP, and received an OBE (even tho' it was agaisnt SDLP policy).

No mention of any GAA involvement, or any online evidence of any interest in GAA affairs.
So on that basis, and back to the original question, i'd say he was more of an outsider.

I'd reiterate -  in his opinion piece he has offered no analysis of either the GAA's (or for that matter soccer/rugby's ) needs, nor has he some up with any alternative proposition.
He may fall into the "why should we spend any of this money on sport when there's better things to spend it on" camp. Again other people might have an idea.