(Spoilers)Making a Murderer - for those who have watched all 10

[macdanger2]

Genuine question stew - before the trial started, had you already made up your mind about Avery?

The reason I ask is that it seems like these things are played out on TV before it ever gets to court - I'm thinking specifically about the police press conference where they went through Dassey's confession - so it's difficult to get anyone in the locality who hasn't already made up their mind and therefore almost impossible to get a fair trial (generally in high profile cases rather than just this one)

[stew]

Genuine question stew - before the trial started, had you already made up your mind about Avery?

The reason I ask is that it seems like these things are played out on TV before it ever gets to court - I'm thinking specifically about the police press conference where they went through Dassey's confession - so it's difficult to get anyone in the locality who hasn't already made up their mind and therefore almost impossible to get a fair trial (generally in high profile cases rather than just this one)

No is the simple answer, I watched the coverage and read the Green Bay Press Gazette, Milwaukee Journal as well as the Appleton Times, I listened to the details on the radio on my travels daily around the state.

I am not without sympathy for Avery, these bastards that were on this case are the same ones in some cases that put him away for many years for a crime that DNA proved he was not involved in, that cannot have helped his mental health.

I cannot mind how long it took for me to believe in Averys guilt, probably months, I do remember being very concerned at DNA setting him free, it spoke to police incompetence and possible bias in the face of pending litigation.

[stew]

I spoke to a friend of mine the other day who was born in Manitowoc, his brother was a cop for two years in the Manitowoc PD and he hated it, he spoke of the level of hatred the cops had for the Averys, he did not say Steven, the family unit, he also said that he was always convinced of Averys guilt but is unsure about Dassey and would prefer he be released.

The overwhelming majority of people in Manitowoc thinks Avery is guilty according to my mate David, he knows them all and like everyone else in the State of Wisconsin followed the trial religiously.

[Minder]

I spoke to a friend of mine the other day who was born in Manitowoc, his brother was a cop for two years in the Manitowoc PD and he hated it, he spoke of the level of hatred the cops had for the Averys, he did not say Steven, the family unit, he also said that he was always convinced of Averys guilt but is unsure about Dassey and would prefer he be released.

The overwhelming majority of people in Manitowoc thinks Avery is guilty according to my mate David, he knows them all and like everyone else in the State of Wisconsin followed the trial religiously.

It's not what people think of him Stew, it's the evidence the jury have to decide on.

Innocent until proven guilty.

[muppet]

I spoke to a friend of mine the other day who was born in Manitowoc, his brother was a cop for two years in the Manitowoc PD and he hated it, he spoke of the level of hatred the cops had for the Averys, he did not say Steven, the family unit, he also said that he was always convinced of Averys guilt but is unsure about Dassey and would prefer he be released.

The overwhelming majority of people in Manitowoc thinks Avery is guilty according to my mate David, he knows them all and like everyone else in the State of Wisconsin followed the trial religiously.

It's not what people think of him Stew, it's the evidence the jury have to decide on.

Innocent until proven guilty.

They were all convinced of Avery's guilt the first time as well. They never even looked at an alternative. Even when evidence showed up suggesting someone else did it, they ignored it until finally DNA proved Avery was innocent.

The local media coverage of the trial was atrocious even by US standards. Only towards the end did they begin to ask difficult questions of the prosecutor.

[Main Street]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

[stew]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!

You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.

[muppet]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!

You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.

The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.

But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.

Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.

They used Dassey's 'confession'  claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.

I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.

[stew]

Since I know what question is coming, here is why i think Avery did it.

He was obsessed with TH, he called her numerous times at work and on several occasions specifically asked for her to come to the compound.

I remember her being afraid of him after he came out to the door almost naked, after that she wanted nothing to do with him so he would use his sisters cellphone to her her with a made up name to get her out there, sadly, it worked.

They found a tooth belonging to TH in his fire pit, not only that they found a part of her Jeans in the same pit, the jeans she was wearing the day she died! How did they get there fellers!

Her PDA was found in the fire pit along with her phone and other items, camera maybe? Strangely enough when I watched the documentary I must have missed the part were they introduced this part of the evidence!

Avery called TH I think 4 times on the day she died, he punched in *67 to hide who was calling in the first calls but at half fout, quarter to five on the last call, he simply dials the number without blocking the number, strange that, was that reported on the documentary, I cannot recall if it was or was not to be honest.

Averys DNA was found on her car, a car he claimed never to have touched, they found this DNA either on the engine or the Bonnet or both, how did that get there?

He spoke to inmates about his desire to build a torture chamber on the compound and told them about the time he poured gasoline on his cat and set it on fire, he stated that fire gets rid of DNA evidence, to me the poor cat suffered as he was teaching himself how to take pleasure in the pain of others and how to hide the evidence!

Kayla's testimony was pretty damning, after pressure from family members she changed her story, I believe her initial story, what possible motive could she have to lie to those that could put her Uncle away?

Finally, there was a bullet found fired from Averys rifle, the one that hung above his bed, this bullet was in an evidence room since some time the first week in November, the whole planting the bullet thing does not stand up to scrutiny as the timeframe is out by roughly 5 months.

There is more but these are some of the main reasons why I believed in his guilt, and that is not even including Dasseys role in the whole affair!

[stew]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!

You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.

The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.

But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.

Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.

They used Dassey's 'confession'  claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.

I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.

How do you know the early media coverage was appalling? Source please!

[muppet]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!

You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.

The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.

But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.

Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.

They used Dassey's 'confession'  claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.

I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.

How do you know the early media coverage was appalling? Source please!

We watched footage of it on the Making a murderer show.

As for the above.

The show did address the evidence found at the pit near Avery's trailer. It also found evidence that she had been burned somewhere else and they had testimony to show that 'someone' moved some of her burnt remains. This wasn't disputed by either side. What was disputed was where the burning took place. An expert testified that normally after the burning of a body, if the remains are moved, the majority end up in the new position, while small fragments remain at the original. The police argued the opposite, oddly (i.e. that whoever moved the remains only wanted to move a tiny part of them).

The DNA evidence was blood. The defence proved that someone had illegally taken some of Avery's blood from a police lab. They even showed the hole the needle had made in the sample that was being held. Who would steal DNA from a police lab and why?

[Main Street]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!

You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.

I have not seen the documentary I have no opinions on guilt or innocence, I just observed what you wrote what you believed to be solid evidence that damned Dassey,
What you believed was hearsay, later recanted, if what you wrote here was a mistake, then apologies.


"Bassey told his neice Kayla he helped dispose of the body and that uncle Avery did the deed, he said he was pressured into it and that he was afraid for his own life, all of this was told to a social worker and got passed on to the police.

Since he told her within hours of the murder I and many people that live in the area believe the early version of events., what he told the police was a load of balls.

The evidence was there to convict him obviously as he stands convicted.

I believe he is guilty of helping Avery destroy the remains, I think he did it under duress and I think he should be freed based on the fact that the police screwed him over, well that and the fact he did not kill her, when you add in a 70 IQ the man needs let out and compensated by MPD"

[doodaa]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!

You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.

Unless you sat in the jury box or viewed the whole thing live in the courtroom then you know as much about this case as the rest of us. Local papers/ TV/ online are about as much good as the documentary was in forming an opinion on this case.

[stew]

The problem Stew is that in court the niece admitted that she made it all up.

I know she recanted Muppet!

That does not mean it is not true however, the problem is that they are incapable of the truth.

Anyhow, Dassey needs to be freed, he has suffered enough.

Basically Stew you are saying that your evidenced based belief in Dassey's guilt is primarily based on a bit of hearsay, the weakest of evidence which ranks alongside tittle tattle and gossip. And even that tenuos hearsay was denied later by it's advocate.

No it is not, do not put words in my mouth!

You lot know nothing about this case other than that fanned documentary, I heard the evidence daily in the papers, on tv and online, not a one of you had ever heard of the case prior to hearing about the documentary, but of a difference in fairness.

The early TV and media coverage was appalling. They were simply a vehicle for the local police to publicly blame Avery. In fairness to them, they did start to turn their attention towards the investigation at the end.

But the most shocking part was the behaviour of Lenk and the local PD. Lenk searched Avery's trailer 5 times and his bedroom in particular 3 times, before he personally found the key to Halbach's car. Lenk shouldn't even have been there. Manitowoc County PD had claimed they had recused themselves due to their previous error in assuming he was guilty and jailing him for 18 years. And yet Lenk was all over the case.

Lenk lied about the timing of his arrival at the Avery property after the crime was reported. Then there was the radio call asking if they had arrested Avery yet, long before anyone knew any details of the crime.

They used Dassey's 'confession'  claiming that they (Avery & Dassey) had stabbed her to death in the bedroom, to convict Dassey, despite using evidence in Avery's trial that Avery had shot her somewhere else. The two stories are completely incompatible, but they convicted them both anyway.

I am not sure that Avery is 100% innocent. I am convinced Dassey is innocent. But I am also convinced that the Police skewed the investigation to get the result they wanted. Thus the 'investigative bias' completely undermines the convictions in my view.

How do you know the early media coverage was appalling? Source please!

We watched footage of it on the Making a murderer show.

As for the above.

The show did address the evidence found at the pit near Avery's trailer. It also found evidence that she had been burned somewhere else and they had testimony to show that 'someone' moved some of her burnt remains. This wasn't disputed by either side. What was disputed was where the burning took place. An expert testified that normally after the burning of a body, if the remains are moved, the majority end up in the new position, while small fragments remain at the original. The police argued the opposite, oddly (i.e. that whoever moved the remains only wanted to move a tiny part of them).

The DNA evidence was blood. The defence proved that someone had illegally taken some of Avery's blood from a police lab. They even showed the hole the needle had made in the sample that was being held. Who would steal DNA from a police lab and why?

So everything you know Muppet is from the tainted documentary, any chance they fed you the snippets that would get you to think the coverage was biased?

The coverage was fine, a lot of people initially were suspicious of the motives of the cops at the time, me included, his behaviour, actions, words, DNA etc convinced many people, especially those in Manitowoc, Two Rivers, Chilton, New Holstein and Green Bay.

It amazes there are so many people out there that think this animal is innocent, knock my knowledge on the subject matter even though I was there and lived through the thing and all any one of you have to go on is that fecking biase documentary!

Do yourselves a favour, youtube the reporting at the time of the trial, WBAY channel two and Fox 11 are the top two stations that covered the trial, check them out, educate yourselves and then give your opinion!

[muppet]

Stew, instead of ranting, how about you argue the evidence?