This is 2009, right? Insanity at Knock!

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).

Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?

For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.

And can anyone explain why some observed phenomenon around the sun = Mary Mother of God?

Sorry but is answering a question with a question not a bit defensive or deflective?

[AFS]

Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).

Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?

For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.

And can anyone explain why some observed phenomenon around the sun = Mary Mother of God?

Sorry but is answering a question with a question not a bit defensive or deflective?

Its hardly deflective, its the crux of the whole matter.

[theskull1]

I dont believe for one second the claims at Knock, not one second, that said I do believe in God and I could not agree less with the skull and gnevin on this thread. The skull did not threaten anyone however he alluded to the fact that a poster would be slapped if they said what they said out on the street, this could have been taken several ways.

As for the skulls assertion that posters were 'a la carte Catholics' ( nice wee phrase that  ) well............... he is talking out of his arse, the problem with non believers sometimes is that they come across as arrogant pricks, sanctimonious arseholes who go out of their way to offend people of faith and this has been done by several poosters on this thread and sadly people bite.

One last thing, just because someone professes to be a Christian does not make them perfect, some of these lads seem to think that if the likes of ardmachaabu write a swear word or say something off colour they are immediately bad Christians or hypocrites, this is wrong, they are fecking people and people are not perfect.

Not that you would do such a thing yourself stew (bad word choice when referring to athiests btw). What is with people like yourself. Is this militant christianity we're dealing with here.

Theres a difference in trying to make what you feel is a valid point and offend someone because your beliefs are at odd with those your having a dialogue with than trying to offend someone whilst making your point.  But shoot from the hip stew knows that fine well.


I struggle with with your opinion on my assertion about alot of posters being al la carte catholics. Care to elaborate or do you just smell fart?

[theskull1]

Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).

Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?

For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.

Answers to the three questions GDA
No
No
No

OK so we'll all keep our minds open to the thought that celestial influences possibly came to play in knock and knock only on that day.

The next thought is why in the hell would heavanly forces decide to visit a tacky commercialised village in the west of ireland and put on a little cryptic sun dance for them in the hope that they would interpret that as a sign that god really does exist. The same question still stands for Lourdes, fatima etc etc etc. What has the man got against prods or muslims for that matter? It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny GDA

Care to tell us how you got your eyes open in Lourdes? Bear in mind now the potential for the trickery of the mind before you tell us.

[Gnevin]

I dont believe for one second the claims at Knock, not one second, that said I do believe in God and I could not agree less with the skull and gnevin on this thread. The skull did not threaten anyone however he alluded to the fact that a poster would be slapped if they said what they said out on the street, this could have been taken several ways.

As for the skulls assertion that posters were 'a la carte Catholics' ( nice wee phrase that  ) well............... he is talking out of his arse, the problem with non believers sometimes is that they come across as arrogant pricks, sanctimonious arseholes who go out of their way to offend people of faith and this has been done by several poosters on this thread and sadly people bite.

One last thing, just because someone professes to be a Christian does not make them perfect, some of these lads seem to think that if the likes of ardmachaabu write a swear word or say something off colour they are immediately bad Christians or hypocrites, this is wrong, they are fecking people and people are not perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI
So you take the bible literally ? You believe everything in the bible? Even the bits that contradict itself?

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?

[J70]

Religion and the whole idea of a god in heaven to alot of people can be a great source of strength to those going through tough times...I get that and I suppose I would not want to shatter or convince people going through those tough times of the absence of god or an afterlife, but that does mean that there is such a thing as a god or a heaven. It is meerly a coping mechanism of the mind at play here and the god in heaven story plays to the mental frialties that I'm sure we all possess and makes understanding of tragedy easier on the mind.

wiki the history of the development of the new testament rossie if your so doubting of my points rather than simply ridiculing

I can tell you that once you have dependants especially that, you do not need a belief in a god to do good things, show good example and possess a strong mental resilience through all the shite this world throws at us. When you realise your children look to you for leadership there is no other way of behaving that I can think of. It's just built into our gene survival instincts. I'm sure for many, religious myths play a part in that whole mechanism but as I've said before that doesn't make the story true.

I would not liken a belief in a diety as showing someone up as stupid or unwell mentally. I would say blinkered would be a better description. Hands over eyes and ears because of the emotional investment paid down as well as the alternative being too difficult to comprehend. If thats where your at then thats where your at. I suggest that you don't read foums where people are able to share their views on such topics in case you read something you don't want to consider.

What the fcuk?

How dare you lecture me on parenting for one and on my (your description) blinkered emotional baggage beliefs?

Who do you think you are? Some kind of fuckin psychiatrist.
I dont need you to tell me how to raise my son or to show him leadership give me a fuckin break.That little person who is waiting at the door every evening for me is the one good thing in my life apart from his mother and i dont need you to tell me how to be fuckin there for him.
Ill manage well enough on that and i dont need the likes of you with your im better than everyone else kinda of shite.

On my blinkered afraid to face the truth baggage i did face the fcukin truth along time ago and im still to this day so i dont you to lecture me on that as well you little p***k.
Ill read this board as many times as i like as well so dont think im going away.
You and J70 give me one shred of reputible evidence that there is no god and ill put my hands up but dont the two of you go around here talking from up on high thrones making a laugh of peoples beliefs with nothong to back it up bar criticisms of meetings that was held thousands of years ago and your lack of understanding of what it takes to have faith.

You mean apart from the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god? Besides, 'tis kind of hard to prove a negative! And the only beliefs I have ridiculed here are the extremes such as people seeing dancing suns or virgin marys in tree stumps or dumb redneck hicks sending all their money to the preacher so he buy a jet to do god's work. I have not ridiculed anyone here for believing in the existence of a god. I have questioned it all right. If you don't like me questioning, that's your business, but don't you've no right to complain about the mere asking of the question.

[J70]

Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.

No it's not as simple as that hugh. From a cultural perspective our society is not ready for humanist style burials. Christians appear to have an irrational fear of athiesm from what I can see and they almost align it to devil worship. If I lived in a society where I knew my decendants we're not going to be ostricised or made subjects of ridicule simply as a result of me holding and standing up for my beliefs in such a public way then I would prefer to be buried somewhere where an large tree could be planted beneath me to enjoy the nutrients (I like the thought that) but I couldn't be sure of the support they would get from people who had strong allegience towards the church. They are the ones who have to live on. So until that day comes I'm happy that they bury me whatever way they want to.....I'll not be arguing come the time.

But it's not about what anyone else wants at a time like this, it's about your final wishes being carried out.I know a friend of my mothers who recently had a humanitarian sevice for her husband.All the friends and neighbours came and took part.I know that their was nothing but support for the family.It's about what you believe in ,not what anyone else thinks.Are you saying that you would go down the church route to keep your family happy?If so, surely your convictions can't be too strong.

I would agree with skull1 and its got nothing to do with convictions. Once I'm dead, that's it for me. I'm just a bit of grub for worms and beetle larvae and bacteria and moulds. If doing the church thing with my remains would help my loved ones through my death, then let them go for it. Anyone who knows me well will be well aware of my beliefs. If they want to donate me to medical or forensic science or for organ harvesting, so much the better, and I would probably encourage them to do something like that.

[J70]

Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).

Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?

For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.

"Slightly implausible"? What happened at Lourdes.

Wasn't at Knock, haven't heard yet that anyone I know was there (my mother's a Mayo woman, so some relatives may well have been) and I obviously cannot say that people didn't at least think they saw something, even if it just the result of looking at the sun or the suggestive power of the herd or the emission of some gas from somewhere with hallucinogenic effects. But, given that there is no evidence that anything like this has ever happened, anywhere, any time, or that there are any celestial beings out there who, if they were so inclined, would decide to pop in for an hour on a Sunday afternoon, appearing to a few and making the sun jump about for others, I think the onus is on those who would make claims that something did happen to prove their case. Until such evidence to the contrary is provided, it is an ironclad assumption to assume that nothing of significance did in fact happen.

[SLIGONIAN]

I think either way its disrespectful for anyone to dismiss an athetists belief system or a believers belief system. Everyone of our beliefs is based on our life experience. Our perceprtions are based on mind conditioning. Ive some things in my life my mind cannot explain. There is definitly something, something I just cant understand but I dont dismiss it, maybe Im not meant to understand. Higher power, energy is invisble but has a force. We cannot and I dont think we are meant to comprend it. For Athetists are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness, usually pain brings you out of that conditioning. Your mind will dismiss my points immediately because it is conditioned that way. Its just the way your meant to be until your experience of your life changes. I believe we are here to awaken to a more concious awareness. I dont believe you get one shot at life. I do believe in God but my faith does get tested, I dont believe everything the Bible says, as I said already i do believe in reincarnation which is Buddhism. I actually take alot from Buddhism. But I would of never have read up on spirtiuality or religions had I not be forced to by my life experience.

You know the Matrix is a very deep film, "Nobody can be told what the Matrix is you have to experience for yourself" I would say the same for Athestists, ye would have to experience a deeper presence to believe in God. Thats why I dont dismiss yer beliefs, because ye obviously havent experienced life to the required concious level yet and maybe arent meant to. i havent lived your life so how can I dismiss it but none of yee have lived mine so ye cant dismiss mine either. Its relative to the person and let everyone have there beliefs as they are important to that person. Very cruel to try and take it away based on ignorance.

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

I think either way its disrespectful for anyone to dismiss an athetists belief system or a believers belief system. Everyone of our beliefs is based on our life experience. Our perceprtions are based on mind conditioning. Ive some things in my life my mind cannot explain. There is definitly something, something I just cant understand but I dont dismiss it, maybe Im not meant to understand. Higher power, energy is invisble but has a force. We cannot and I dont think we are meant to comprend it. For Athetists are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness, usually pain brings you out of that conditioning. Your mind will dismiss my points immediately because it is conditioned that way. Its just the way your meant to be until your experience of your life changes. I believe we are here to awaken to a more concious awareness. I dont believe you get one shot at life. I do believe in God but my faith does get tested, I dont believe everything the Bible says, as I said already i do believe in reincarnation which is Buddhism. I actually take alot from Buddhism. But I would of never have read up on spirtiuality or religions had I not be forced to by my life experience.

You know the Matrix is a very deep film, "Nobody can be told what the Matrix is you have to experience for yourself" I would say the same for Athestists, ye would have to experience a deeper presence to believe in God. Thats why I dont dismiss yer beliefs, because ye obviously havent experienced life to the required concious level yet and maybe arent meant to. i havent lived your life so how can I dismiss it but none of yee have lived mine so ye cant dismiss mine either. Its relative to the person and let everyone have there beliefs as they are important to that person. Very cruel to try and take it away based on ignorance.

So.......................
You believe in God
You don't believe in all of the bible (this suggests you believe in some (which bits?) which suggests you're christian)
All our beliefs are based on experience (how does this tie in with the bible, have you witnessed something linked to the bible)
You believe we will awaken to a more conscious awareness (how does this tie in to the bible, christianity etc)
You believe in parts of Buddhism

Well that's a mixed bag. Could it be you believe in a higher power because of some of your experiences and you're trying to link it to some some of the most popular organised religions?
Could it possibly be in reality that whatever you experienced has a logical explanation that you haven't yet discovered?

[muppet]

14 pages of mudslinging and still no one has suggested how a group of people observing something strange around the sun equates to an appearance by Mary Mother of God.

This question is not a personal attack on anyone's faith, beliefs or their lack of faith.

It is simply asking how one is interpreted as the other.

[ardmhachaabu]

muppet, didn't see you raising this earlier so apologies.  I haven't got much time right now so may have to come back to it but will do my best here.

Apparitions of Our Lady are often associated with strange happenings of the sun, don't ask me why because I certainly don't know - I should point out here that there are photos of the people gathered at Cova da Iria in Fatima where the apparitions happened and at the time the sun did strange things in the sky.  The photographer who took the photos didn't see anything and cameras weren't exactly top spec back in those days so the photos he took of the sun didn't show anything other than brightness... however from the photos he took of people who saw the sun do strange things, it's obvious they were witnessing something spectacular, the likes of which they had never seen before

There is a train of thought that says you have to actually believe before you see anything - it should also be pointed out that not everyone saw the sun do anything - for some people that day in Cova da Iria was just another day and nothing unusual occurred

[J70]

I think either way its disrespectful for anyone to dismiss an athetists belief system or a believers belief system. Everyone of our beliefs is based on our life experience. Our perceprtions are based on mind conditioning. Ive some things in my life my mind cannot explain. There is definitly something, something I just cant understand but I dont dismiss it, maybe Im not meant to understand. Higher power, energy is invisble but has a force. We cannot and I dont think we are meant to comprend it. For Athetists are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness, usually pain brings you out of that conditioning. Your mind will dismiss my points immediately because it is conditioned that way. Its just the way your meant to be until your experience of your life changes. I believe we are here to awaken to a more concious awareness. I dont believe you get one shot at life. I do believe in God but my faith does get tested, I dont believe everything the Bible says, as I said already i do believe in reincarnation which is Buddhism. I actually take alot from Buddhism. But I would of never have read up on spirtiuality or religions had I not be forced to by my life experience.

You know the Matrix is a very deep film, "Nobody can be told what the Matrix is you have to experience for yourself" I would say the same for Athestists, ye would have to experience a deeper presence to believe in God. Thats why I dont dismiss yer beliefs, because ye obviously havent experienced life to the required concious level yet and maybe arent meant to. i havent lived your life so how can I dismiss it but none of yee have lived mine so ye cant dismiss mine either. Its relative to the person and let everyone have there beliefs as they are important to that person. Very cruel to try and take it away based on ignorance.

The "required conscious level"?

I don't have a clue what you are talking about, unless your suggestion that pain will bring you there means that you are talking about anguish or grief, in which case I would suggest, again, that it is simple wishful thinking to fall back on the idea of a higher power just because you want to see that person again or you are afraid of what might come after death or your life is so troubled that you "know" there has just got to be something better waiting for you. If that is not what you mean, please explain.

And again, you cannot "take away" someone's faith without their consent.

[Lar Naparka]

I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?

The official Church teaching is that anyone who has led a life of rectitude according to his or her moral code will be saved. This can be taken to mean that those, even today, who follow their consciences and act accordingly will find favour in the eyes of God even if they chose to practise a different religion.