This is 2009, right? Insanity at Knock!

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?

The official Church teaching is that anyone who has led a life of rectitude according to his or her moral code will be saved. This can be taken to mean that those, even today, who follow their consciences and act accordingly will find favour in the eyes of God even if they chose to practise a different religion.   

Nice and wishy washy then.

[mylestheslasher]

14 pages of mudslinging and still no one has suggested how a group of people observing something strange around the sun equates to an appearance by Mary Mother of God.

This question is not a personal attack on anyone's faith, beliefs or their lack of faith.

It is simply asking how one is interpreted as the other.

More importantly, if you were to see the figure of a woman, a vision or whatever you want to call it - how would you know it was the virgin mary? Personally, for me, the one thing that proves that visions of the virgin mary are all in peoples heads is the fact that all descriptions of the virgin are as per the pictures in houses throughout the world. Like the pictures of christ himself these likenesses most likely came about in the middle ages and are almost certainly not the accurate portraits of either Mary or Jesus (for a start milky white skin in the middle east most certainly is not correct). So when someone "sees" Mary how come she looks like the unrealistic paintings?

[theskull1]

Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie

Athiest are usually very  unconciousness people with little or no awareness?


If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.

But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.?  Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

14 pages of mudslinging and still no one has suggested how a group of people observing something strange around the sun equates to an appearance by Mary Mother of God.

This question is not a personal attack on anyone's faith, beliefs or their lack of faith.

It is simply asking how one is interpreted as the other.

More importantly, if you were to see the figure of a woman, a vision or whatever you want to call it - how would you know it was the virgin mary? Personally, for me, the one thing that proves that visions of the virgin mary are all in peoples heads is the fact that all descriptions of the virgin are as per the pictures in houses throughout the world. Like the pictures of christ himself these likenesses most likely came about in the middle ages and are almost certainly not the accurate portraits of either Mary or Jesus (for a start milky white skin in the middle east most certainly is not correct). So when someone "sees" Mary how come she looks like the unrealistic paintings?

Brilliant, so obvious yet..........

[SLIGONIAN]

Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie

Athiest are usually very  unconciousness people with little or no awareness?


If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.

But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.?  Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?

With Athetists and non believers, its my own experience of faith Im referring to. When im in my most unconcious state I would lean towards losing faith in God, My faith is constantly evolving, and I challenge it alot. But in the end when I become concious I have total faith. So if I were concious the whole time I have faith the whole time.

For me Unconcious means, totally reactive like a robot where someone says something to you and go into autopilot, this happens me alot if someone slags off Sligo football for example. And its where the saying it really pushes my button comes from. But really what happens is your mind is conditioned from your past and you react accordingly, now most people are unconcious for long spells, thinking of past and future but never really living in the Now. That is where conciousness exists and where reality exists. This involves you controlling your mind enough to not be so reactive. This is very hard to explain but I have enough awareness to know when Im unconcious but sometimes the conditioning is so strong I havent the strength to snap out of it and react accordingly.

Just for example, when Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" when our insanity was on show when the Jews let Barrabas go and to crucify Jesus. What he meant to that was they were so unconcious they were just in auto pilot and that was there reaction but wasnt there true concious selves. There minds were conditioned that way so they werent aware of insanity, just like murderer, the adulterer isnt either . To break habits of human behauvior you have to develop your conciousness.  That is the purpose of suffering. In suffering God gives you the opportunity to awaken. Thats why we are here not to make money. Only for the suffering in my life I wouldnt be near as concious as am, and im still on the journey.  As I said i believe in reincarnation, so therefore if I dont awaken fully in this life I'll be sent back into another human form with differnent parameters to ensure Im given the opportunity to awaken in the next and so on. You the Bible was written in Hebrew, and interpretated by people yrs ago, maybe some of was interpretated wrongly, because I really belive we dont get one shot at life, I would love to know where that was said in Bible for most people to think that.

On the open minded part you mention with regards athesists, that is just mind conditioning that made you that way but I wouldnt question where you are at in terms of conciousness, you are where you are meant to be, IMO im being forced by outside forces to become more concious even though I struggle against it, I guess im being dragged into the kingdom of Heavan kicking and screaming. Im no dali lama but Ive explained it as best I can.

Ive read a few books on Spirituality, even read parts of the God delusion. The power of Now by Eckhart Tolle being the best Spirituality one. Id challenge any athetists to read it. Ive read 3 times now and I get it more and more as I read it. Didnt make much sense the first time but I love reading books about sages, Buddha etc...

Just for the record during that moment of the Vision people individual awareness comes into play on what they see. Some are ready to see others are not. I would include myself in the latter. There is more to this world than meets the eye, that is an absolute truth. I wouldnt believe every vision though.

I have my doubts about this one at Knock on the basis of no one bringing a camera even though they were going to see something as spectacular as they say. I know I would of.

[Lar Naparka]

I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?

The official Church teaching is that anyone who has led a life of rectitude according to his or her moral code will be saved. This can be taken to mean that those, even today, who follow their consciences and act accordingly will find favour in the eyes of God even if they chose to practise a different religion.   

Nice and wishy washy then.

I'm not saying nuthin'

[theskull1]

When I questioned the doctrines of my faith and got a perspective on the the history and how it developed I totally lost my faith. It was a control mechanism over the ages by the rulers of the day to keep their minions in check. A king, queen, lord, duke, bishop, priest was nearer to god than thee, so disrespect them and you were gaurenteeing yourself to an eternal life in hell. Every war had god on their side...i.e minions told to fight in the king and gods name...never mind the fact that the other side were saying similar things to their demographic.


The fact that there are many inspirational people in the church who paint pretty pictures that construct wonderful frameworks for many peoples spiritual beliefs does not however make it truth
You can speak all you want about spirituality sligo..it's a lovely thought...but it's not grounded in the reality of the point of these religion at the controlling level. Read the catholic doctrine from 40-50 years ago to get an understanding of the way the church uses god to define to the everyday classes, what the hierarchy of who is nearer to god than you is, therefore you must respect them totally to find your way to heaven.

For example. The master of the house was seen as being nearer to god than house servants. The house servants only by showing full obeyance to the master of the house could have a relationship with god? Same thing with Doctors, Priests, Bishops etc etc

Now if that isn't mind control I do not know what is? And we all, in our own generation know what the church (and the master of houses) did with that absolute power. Now if the leaders of our churches truely believed in a god, what the fcuk were they doing moving paedophiles round like chess pieces? These men study and ponder theology for years yet (never mind the abusers) they sit on their hands and let known to them paedohiles run roit through communities without lifting a hand.

Once you see the hypocrisy there is no way back. The humanist perspective is a far more grounded approach to living out a fulfilling existence while your here IMO.

That to me is concious thought

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie

Athiest are usually very  unconciousness people with little or no awareness?


If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.

But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.?  Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?

With Athetists and non believers, its my own experience of faith Im referring to. When im in my most unconcious state I would lean towards losing faith in God, My faith is constantly evolving, and I challenge it alot. But in the end when I become concious I have total faith. So if I were concious the whole time I have faith the whole time.

For me Unconcious means, totally reactive like a robot where someone says something to you and go into autopilot, this happens me alot if someone slags off Sligo football for example. And its where the saying it really pushes my button comes from. But really what happens is your mind is conditioned from your past and you react accordingly, now most people are unconcious for long spells, thinking of past and future but never really living in the Now. That is where conciousness exists and where reality exists. This involves you controlling your mind enough to not be so reactive. This is very hard to explain but I have enough awareness to know when Im unconcious but sometimes the conditioning is so strong I havent the strength to snap out of it and react accordingly.

Just for example, when Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" when our insanity was on show when the Jews let Barrabas go and to crucify Jesus. What he meant to that was they were so unconcious they were just in auto pilot and that was there reaction but wasnt there true concious selves. There minds were conditioned that way so they werent aware of insanity, just like murderer, the adulterer isnt either . To break habits of human behauvior you have to develop your conciousness.  That is the purpose of suffering. In suffering God gives you the opportunity to awaken. Thats why we are here not to make money. Only for the suffering in my life I wouldnt be near as concious as am, and im still on the journey.  As I said i believe in reincarnation, so therefore if I dont awaken fully in this life I'll be sent back into another human form with differnent parameters to ensure Im given the opportunity to awaken in the next and so on. You the Bible was written in Hebrew, and interpretated by people yrs ago, maybe some of was interpretated wrongly, because I really belive we dont get one shot at life, I would love to know where that was said in Bible for most people to think that.

On the open minded part you mention with regards athesists, that is just mind conditioning that made you that way but I wouldnt question where you are at in terms of conciousness, you are where you are meant to be, IMO im being forced by outside forces to become more concious even though I struggle against it, I guess im being dragged into the kingdom of Heavan kicking and screaming. Im no dali lama but Ive explained it as best I can.

Ive read a few books on Spirituality, even read parts of the God delusion. The power of Now by Eckhart Tolle being the best Spirituality one. Id challenge any athetists to read it. Ive read 3 times now and I get it more and more as I read it. Didnt make much sense the first time but I love reading books about sages, Buddha etc...

Just for the record during that moment of the Vision people individual awareness comes into play on what they see. Some are ready to see others are not. I would include myself in the latter. There is more to this world than meets the eye, that is an absolute truth. I wouldnt believe every vision though.

I have my doubts about this one at Knock on the basis of no one bringing a camera even though they were going to see something as spectacular as they say. I know I would of.

Why do you perceive things in such a way? I'm not knocking it, in fact I've never even thought of this outlook but where did you get it from? It seemed interesting and then God entered the equation which seemed unnecessary for want of  better word.
And also where do you get your beliefs on people being where they're supposed to be (with regards to consciousness) and being ready to see something?

[SLIGONIAN]

Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie

Athiest are usually very  unconciousness people with little or no awareness?


If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.

But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.?  Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?

With Athetists and non believers, its my own experience of faith Im referring to. When im in my most unconcious state I would lean towards losing faith in God, My faith is constantly evolving, and I challenge it alot. But in the end when I become concious I have total faith. So if I were concious the whole time I have faith the whole time.

For me Unconcious means, totally reactive like a robot where someone says something to you and go into autopilot, this happens me alot if someone slags off Sligo football for example. And its where the saying it really pushes my button comes from. But really what happens is your mind is conditioned from your past and you react accordingly, now most people are unconcious for long spells, thinking of past and future but never really living in the Now. That is where conciousness exists and where reality exists. This involves you controlling your mind enough to not be so reactive. This is very hard to explain but I have enough awareness to know when Im unconcious but sometimes the conditioning is so strong I havent the strength to snap out of it and react accordingly.

Just for example, when Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" when our insanity was on show when the Jews let Barrabas go and to crucify Jesus. What he meant to that was they were so unconcious they were just in auto pilot and that was there reaction but wasnt there true concious selves. There minds were conditioned that way so they werent aware of insanity, just like murderer, the adulterer isnt either . To break habits of human behauvior you have to develop your conciousness.  That is the purpose of suffering. In suffering God gives you the opportunity to awaken. Thats why we are here not to make money. Only for the suffering in my life I wouldnt be near as concious as am, and im still on the journey.  As I said i believe in reincarnation, so therefore if I dont awaken fully in this life I'll be sent back into another human form with differnent parameters to ensure Im given the opportunity to awaken in the next and so on. You the Bible was written in Hebrew, and interpretated by people yrs ago, maybe some of was interpretated wrongly, because I really belive we dont get one shot at life, I would love to know where that was said in Bible for most people to think that.

On the open minded part you mention with regards athesists, that is just mind conditioning that made you that way but I wouldnt question where you are at in terms of conciousness, you are where you are meant to be, IMO im being forced by outside forces to become more concious even though I struggle against it, I guess im being dragged into the kingdom of Heavan kicking and screaming. Im no dali lama but Ive explained it as best I can.

Ive read a few books on Spirituality, even read parts of the God delusion. The power of Now by Eckhart Tolle being the best Spirituality one. Id challenge any athetists to read it. Ive read 3 times now and I get it more and more as I read it. Didnt make much sense the first time but I love reading books about sages, Buddha etc...

Just for the record during that moment of the Vision people individual awareness comes into play on what they see. Some are ready to see others are not. I would include myself in the latter. There is more to this world than meets the eye, that is an absolute truth. I wouldnt believe every vision though.

I have my doubts about this one at Knock on the basis of no one bringing a camera even though they were going to see something as spectacular as they say. I know I would of.

Why do you perceive things in such a way? I'm not knocking it, in fact I've never even thought of this outlook but where did you get it from? It seemed interesting and then God entered the equation which seemed unnecessary for want of  better word.
And also where do you get your beliefs on people being where they're supposed to be (with regards to consciousness) and being ready to see something?

My life experience i suppose made me percieve things differently, I looked into myself and the workings of my mind, read a few books, went deeper into myself. Look the whole idea is realise your are not your mind, and that you can control your mind and not other way around.

God enters the equation as a higher power, a energy so to speak. For me God isnt catholic, muslim or whatever, its a statement of the next dimension of our eternal journey. See God the word was invented by humans. God is a symbol to me. Totally out of anyones understanding. I see myself of having a one to one relationship with this symbol of next part of my journey.

I would say there is free will but is there, if a person is like a robot like I explained is there free will, free will only exists if your concious, we are not concious all of the time like the Jews did when they crucified Jesus. There is lots of religious terminalogoy I disagree with it. Like forgiveness, but we were conditioned to do it, Judas had no choice, he was unconcious and thats why it was predicted. Like me on the Bellaghy argument the mayo lads can predict how I react, because im conditioned that way, dont have the strength to become concious on it because it hurts me. But for me to be at peace about it I have to be concious of the habit and mind conditioning before I react. I have to stay in the moment and Ive done it a few times and my awareness fluctuates but it is so peaceful but your mind is conditioned to feed on pain so its a constant battle. On people being where they are meant to be, I believe in reincarnation, so if your a young soul you may have a few earth journeys to go through whereas old souls are at the end, when you become fully awaken here you dont come back. Buddhism is based on this. I do believe all the kids who die early and handicapped souls etc... anyone who born into seriously bad circumstances, I belive they are the teacher souls who choose there human form to bring up the levels of conciousness of the people affected. On being able to see something like a vision, well I can feel my energy flow through me and yoga gets me there very easily and meditation, you can feel whereas I never felt my energy up until a few yrs ago, I was completely unconcious, only cared for material things but now I value things alot differently. Sometimes I can see vibrations around people, sometimes not. But I know im not ready to see a vision, seeing jesus or whatever would shock me too much, maybe thats why the vision was the Sun jumping up and down. I dunno wasnt the original knock apparititon of the Virgin Mary just shadows on a wall?

[theskull1]

Are you sure that LSD you took in your twenties didn't help you along the path of understanding Sligonian    Far out man 

Seriously...it's a nice philosphy and I would like to live in that world myself. I can see why others have influenced societies to see our existence and tragedy especially in those terms. For generations thinking this way may have been a great comfort to many many people. But at the end of the day it is still only a mental coping mechanism with no evidence what so ever that there is a spiritual god figure making that belief system true. The fact that a god is the corner stone of that belief systems means that someone like yourself who has invested so much time in such beliefs, it is obviously very difficult for you to consider. But how do you dismiss the fact that there is no evidence (other than your mind telling you and we all know how flawed it can be) that this corner stone is for real?

[SLIGONIAN]

When I questioned the doctrines of my faith and got a perspective on the the history and how it developed I totally lost my faith. It was a control mechanism over the ages by the rulers of the day to keep their minions in check. A king, queen, lord, duke, bishop, priest was nearer to god than thee, so disrespect them and you were gaurenteeing yourself to an eternal life in hell. Every war had god on their side...i.e minions told to fight in the king and gods name...never mind the fact that the other side were saying similar things to their demographic.


The fact that there are many inspirational people in the church who paint pretty pictures that construct wonderful frameworks for many peoples spiritual beliefs does not however make it truth
You can speak all you want about spirituality sligo..it's a lovely thought...but it's not grounded in the reality of the point of these religion at the controlling level. Read the catholic doctrine from 40-50 years ago to get an understanding of the way the church uses god to define to the everyday classes, what the hierarchy of who is nearer to god than you is, therefore you must respect them totally to find your way to heaven.

For example. The master of the house was seen as being nearer to god than house servants. The house servants only by showing full obeyance to the master of the house could have a relationship with god? Same thing with Doctors, Priests, Bishops etc etc

Now if that isn't mind control I do not know what is? And we all, in our own generation know what the church (and the master of houses) did with that absolute power. Now if the leaders of our churches truely believed in a god, what the fcuk were they doing moving paedophiles round like chess pieces? These men study and ponder theology for years yet (never mind the abusers) they sit on their hands and let known to them paedohiles run roit through communities without lifting a hand.

Once you see the hypocrisy there is no way back. The humanist perspective is a far more grounded approach to living out a fulfilling existence while your here IMO.

That to me is concious thought

You need to seperate religion from God which seems logical to me, I tryed to explain it in last post. The Mass on a Sunday is the most unconcious place on the planet, aload of robots rhyming of stuff with no meaning to them, well in Ireland thats the case. And as you said its designed for power etc,,. and the man fogiving you maybe a criminal, but leave the judgement out  of it and go on your own journey. I dont class myself affiliated to any religion. I was born into it, didnt get a choice, but I do believe in Jesus and God but why affiliate Jesus to anything? He was a prophet in my book that could do extroadinary things, he was symbol of God in his human form simple as that. Religion is it just labelled to suit an agenda IMO as you said.

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

When I questioned the doctrines of my faith and got a perspective on the the history and how it developed I totally lost my faith. It was a control mechanism over the ages by the rulers of the day to keep their minions in check. A king, queen, lord, duke, bishop, priest was nearer to god than thee, so disrespect them and you were gaurenteeing yourself to an eternal life in hell. Every war had god on their side...i.e minions told to fight in the king and gods name...never mind the fact that the other side were saying similar things to their demographic.


The fact that there are many inspirational people in the church who paint pretty pictures that construct wonderful frameworks for many peoples spiritual beliefs does not however make it truth
You can speak all you want about spirituality sligo..it's a lovely thought...but it's not grounded in the reality of the point of these religion at the controlling level. Read the catholic doctrine from 40-50 years ago to get an understanding of the way the church uses god to define to the everyday classes, what the hierarchy of who is nearer to god than you is, therefore you must respect them totally to find your way to heaven.

For example. The master of the house was seen as being nearer to god than house servants. The house servants only by showing full obeyance to the master of the house could have a relationship with god? Same thing with Doctors, Priests, Bishops etc etc

Now if that isn't mind control I do not know what is? And we all, in our own generation know what the church (and the master of houses) did with that absolute power. Now if the leaders of our churches truely believed in a god, what the fcuk were they doing moving paedophiles round like chess pieces? These men study and ponder theology for years yet (never mind the abusers) they sit on their hands and let known to them paedohiles run roit through communities without lifting a hand.

Once you see the hypocrisy there is no way back. The humanist perspective is a far more grounded approach to living out a fulfilling existence while your here IMO.

That to me is concious thought

You need to seperate religion from God which seems logical to me, I tryed to explain it in last post. The Mass on a Sunday is the most unconcious place on the planet, aload of robots rhyming of stuff with no meaning to them, well in Ireland thats the case. And as you said its designed for power etc,,. and the man fogiving you maybe a criminal, but leave the judgement out  of it and go on your own journey. I dont class myself affiliated to any religion. I was born into it, didnt get a choice, but I do believe in Jesus and God but why affiliate Jesus to anything? He was a prophet in my book that could do extroadinary things, he was symbol of God in his human form simple as that. Religion is it just labelled to suit an agenda IMO as you said.

First of all, well done on actually explaining yourself. I won't knock one thing you say as you seem to justify everything you say very well.............except one...............when you say you believe in Jesus what exactly do you mean as you say you are not affiliated to any religion? What I mean is didn't jesus preach what is now christianity? And you see him as a prophet? Do you see him as the son of god?

[theskull1]

Historically..yes Jesus did exist. But the writings about jesus's life have to be seen as very dubious when it comes to the accuracy of actual events told in the bible. We all know how stories get embelished as the years go on and within 10-20 years it becomes something it is not. Most of the new testament was not written until 70 years or more after he died. AND it was written in a different part of the world in a different language (so there is also lost (or embelished) in translation factors to consider) so I seriously doubt the accuracy of these documents and the ability of the man that they write about although he obviously had an great influence in his day. The writings in the bible are not even close to the word of god. If god had wanted us to get the message of jesus he would have used a better form of communication than that surely.

[johnneycool]

If god had wanted us to get the message of jesus he would have used a better form of communication than that surely.

But he did, in the form of apparitions. 

[mylestheslasher]

I hear she is expected back at knock this weekend. The guy who predicted her appearance last time has made this prediction. Is anyone going to go and report the truth back to us?