The IRISH RUGBY thread

[Dinny Breen]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

[6th sam]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

Great post.
As long as someone is committed to the cause and has an appropriate passport they should be welcome. If you don't qualify for, or won't commit to an Irish passport ( or British, I imagine in the case of most Ulster rugby players) , then what other criteria make it appropriate for you to represent Ireland ? Whereas I see immigration to Ireland as positive , there has to be some evidence of national commitment to qualify for the international team. Hypothetically if ireland got to rugby World Cup final and were beaten by a Welsh side laced with players with NZ passports, would people be ok with that?

[johnnycool]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

Great post.
As long as someone is committed to the cause and has an appropriate passport they should be welcome. If you don't qualify for, or won't commit to an Irish passport ( or British, I imagine in the case of most Ulster rugby players) , then what other criteria make it appropriate for you to represent Ireland ? Whereas I see immigration to Ireland as positive , there has to be some evidence of national commitment to qualify for the international team. Hypothetically if ireland got to rugby World Cup final and were beaten by a Welsh side laced with players with NZ passports, would people be ok with that?

Getting beat by Wales is never OK 

The question you're asking is should the IRFU follow the criteria as set out by the IRB or stick with home born players?

When the IRFU went down the route of project players then I think the cat is already out of the bag. I really don't have issues with James Lowe, Stander of Bundee Aki playing for Ireland but I'm not involved in grass roots rugby and probably if I was I may have a different viewpoint.

The Soccer lads are making much of the home born aspect of the current squad but don't be kidding yourselves as if Michael Keane, Declan Rice or Grealish has continued to play for Ireland from their youth days then they'd be welcomed by open arms.

[dublin7]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

Great post.
As long as someone is committed to the cause and has an appropriate passport they should be welcome. If you don't qualify for, or won't commit to an Irish passport ( or British, I imagine in the case of most Ulster rugby players) , then what other criteria make it appropriate for you to represent Ireland ? Whereas I see immigration to Ireland as positive , there has to be some evidence of national commitment to qualify for the international team. Hypothetically if ireland got to rugby World Cup final and were beaten by a Welsh side laced with players with NZ passports, would people be ok with that?

Getting beat by Wales is never OK 

The question you're asking is should the IRFU follow the criteria as set out by the IRB or stick with home born players?

When the IRFU went down the route of project players then I think the cat is already out of the bag. I really don't have issues with James Lowe, Stander of Bundee Aki playing for Ireland but I'm not involved in grass roots rugby and probably if I was I may have a different viewpoint.

The Soccer lads are making much of the home born aspect of the current squad but don't be kidding yourselves as if Michael Keane, Declan Rice or Grealish has continued to play for Ireland from their youth days then they'd be welcomed by open arms.

It's interesting that James Lowe is in the news at the moment as he made his debut for Ireland at the weekend even though he's a New Zealander and the usual does this guy care about Ireland etc stories appear in the paper.

What none of those journos looked at is the work he does around Dublin for underage and local rugby. All the provincial players have a club side they are affiliated with and when James Lowe arrived he was approached by all the big Dublin clubs like St. Marys, Blackrock etc to represent them but he wasn't interested and told Leinster to pick for a small club for him to work with and he now is affiliated with Clondalkin RFC. He regularly helps out with training the kids, medal presentations etc in the club and is the first Leinster/Irish player to be associated them. He has said in interviews for Leinster that helping out a small club like Clondalkin who wouldn't have the resources of the bigger clubs in the city is an important to him as it's a chance for him to give back to the community

[Baile Brigín 2]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

Great post.
As long as someone is committed to the cause and has an appropriate passport they should be welcome. If you don't qualify for, or won't commit to an Irish passport ( or British, I imagine in the case of most Ulster rugby players) , then what other criteria make it appropriate for you to represent Ireland ? Whereas I see immigration to Ireland as positive , there has to be some evidence of national commitment to qualify for the international team. Hypothetically if ireland got to rugby World Cup final and were beaten by a Welsh side laced with players with NZ passports, would people be ok with that?

Getting beat by Wales is never OK 

The question you're asking is should the IRFU follow the criteria as set out by the IRB or stick with home born players?

When the IRFU went down the route of project players then I think the cat is already out of the bag. I really don't have issues with James Lowe, Stander of Bundee Aki playing for Ireland but I'm not involved in grass roots rugby and probably if I was I may have a different viewpoint.

The Soccer lads are making much of the home born aspect of the current squad but don't be kidding yourselves as if Michael Keane, Declan Rice or Grealish has continued to play for Ireland from their youth days then they'd be welcomed by open arms.

It's interesting that James Lowe is in the news at the moment as he made his debut for Ireland at the weekend even though he's a New Zealander and the usual does this guy care about Ireland etc stories appear in the paper.

What none of those journos looked at is the work he does around Dublin for underage and local rugby. All the provincial players have a club side they are affiliated with and when James Lowe arrived he was approached by all the big Dublin clubs like St. Marys, Blackrock etc to represent them but he wasn't interested and told Leinster to pick for a small club for him to work with and he now is affiliated with Clondalkin RFC. He regularly helps out with training the kids, medal presentations etc in the club and is the first Leinster/Irish player to be associated them. He has said in interviews for Leinster that helping out a small club like Clondalkin who wouldn't have the resources of the bigger clubs in the city is an important to him as it's a chance for him to give back to the community

Good for him.

Doesn't make him Irish though.

[dublin7]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

Great post.
As long as someone is committed to the cause and has an appropriate passport they should be welcome. If you don't qualify for, or won't commit to an Irish passport ( or British, I imagine in the case of most Ulster rugby players) , then what other criteria make it appropriate for you to represent Ireland ? Whereas I see immigration to Ireland as positive , there has to be some evidence of national commitment to qualify for the international team. Hypothetically if ireland got to rugby World Cup final and were beaten by a Welsh side laced with players with NZ passports, would people be ok with that?

Getting beat by Wales is never OK 

The question you're asking is should the IRFU follow the criteria as set out by the IRB or stick with home born players?

When the IRFU went down the route of project players then I think the cat is already out of the bag. I really don't have issues with James Lowe, Stander of Bundee Aki playing for Ireland but I'm not involved in grass roots rugby and probably if I was I may have a different viewpoint.

The Soccer lads are making much of the home born aspect of the current squad but don't be kidding yourselves as if Michael Keane, Declan Rice or Grealish has continued to play for Ireland from their youth days then they'd be welcomed by open arms.

It's interesting that James Lowe is in the news at the moment as he made his debut for Ireland at the weekend even though he's a New Zealander and the usual does this guy care about Ireland etc stories appear in the paper.

What none of those journos looked at is the work he does around Dublin for underage and local rugby. All the provincial players have a club side they are affiliated with and when James Lowe arrived he was approached by all the big Dublin clubs like St. Marys, Blackrock etc to represent them but he wasn't interested and told Leinster to pick for a small club for him to work with and he now is affiliated with Clondalkin RFC. He regularly helps out with training the kids, medal presentations etc in the club and is the first Leinster/Irish player to be associated them. He has said in interviews for Leinster that helping out a small club like Clondalkin who wouldn't have the resources of the bigger clubs in the city is an important to him as it's a chance for him to give back to the community

Good for him.

Doesn't make him Irish though.

No, but it does show playing and living in Ireland for him is not just about benefiting his career. Pity I can't say the same about our most of our football imports.

One of the main reasons there are less players playing for Ireland who were born outside of Ireland is because FIFA have tightened the eligibility rules for players who want to go down this route and not because of any moral decisions made by the FAI and/or Irish managers.

I don't have a problem with Ireland doing this by the way. We are a small country with limited playing resources and have no structures in place to bring players through from schoolboy levels to international standard. It's not so long ago we were trying to get Patrick Bamford to declare for Ireland as a solution to Ireland's forward/goal scoring problems

I do find it hypocritcal though for football fans though to question Irish rugby players "Irishness" given they the tenuous link some of them have with this country before suddenly turning up to wear the green jersey.

[6th sam]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

Great post.
As long as someone is committed to the cause and has an appropriate passport they should be welcome. If you don't qualify for, or won't commit to an Irish passport ( or British, I imagine in the case of most Ulster rugby players) , then what other criteria make it appropriate for you to represent Ireland ? Whereas I see immigration to Ireland as positive , there has to be some evidence of national commitment to qualify for the international team. Hypothetically if ireland got to rugby World Cup final and were beaten by a Welsh side laced with players with NZ passports, would people be ok with that?

Getting beat by Wales is never OK 

The question you're asking is should the IRFU follow the criteria as set out by the IRB or stick with home born players?

When the IRFU went down the route of project players then I think the cat is already out of the bag. I really don't have issues with James Lowe, Stander of Bundee Aki playing for Ireland but I'm not involved in grass roots rugby and probably if I was I may have a different viewpoint.

The Soccer lads are making much of the home born aspect of the current squad but don't be kidding yourselves as if Michael Keane, Declan Rice or Grealish has continued to play for Ireland from their youth days then they'd be welcomed by open arms.

It's interesting that James Lowe is in the news at the moment as he made his debut for Ireland at the weekend even though he's a New Zealander and the usual does this guy care about Ireland etc stories appear in the paper.

What none of those journos looked at is the work he does around Dublin for underage and local rugby. All the provincial players have a club side they are affiliated with and when James Lowe arrived he was approached by all the big Dublin clubs like St. Marys, Blackrock etc to represent them but he wasn't interested and told Leinster to pick for a small club for him to work with and he now is affiliated with Clondalkin RFC. He regularly helps out with training the kids, medal presentations etc in the club and is the first Leinster/Irish player to be associated them. He has said in interviews for Leinster that helping out a small club like Clondalkin who wouldn't have the resources of the bigger clubs in the city is an important to him as it's a chance for him to give back to the community

Good for him.

Doesn't make him Irish though.

No, but it does show playing and living in Ireland for him is not just about benefiting his career. Pity I can't say the same about our most of our football imports.

One of the main reasons there are less players playing for Ireland who were born outside of Ireland is because FIFA have tightened the eligibility rules for players who want to go down this route and not because of any moral decisions made by the FAI and/or Irish managers.

I don't have a problem with Ireland doing this by the way. We are a small country with limited playing resources and have no structures in place to bring players through from schoolboy levels to international standard. It's not so long ago we were trying to get Patrick Bamford to declare for Ireland as a solution to Ireland's forward/goal scoring problems

I do find it hypocritcal though for football fans though to question Irish rugby players "Irishness" given they the tenuous link some of them have with this country before suddenly turning up to wear the green jersey.

I don't know James Lowe and I'm sure he's a great lad. Given that this club association is part of his contract , it doesn't warrant the same respect as say Peter Canavan  voluntarily helping Errigal u10s. Did he choose Clondalkin for an easier ride , ? Less members, lower expectations ? who knows?
I would welcome him coming here to play club rugby, but surely World Rugby needs to legislate for evidence of national affinity for international teams. They already recognise it's an issue by extending eligible residency to 5 years. Btw I'm no cheerleader for Irish soccer, but as a GAA member I see the benefit of affinity and the problems when it's watered down.

[Dinny Breen]

It's not part of his contract.

If a player becomes an International his "club" though get allocated extra tickets, hence senior clubs in Dublin try to sign up players to their club. Lowe picked Clondalkin as he had requests from fans who were members on the club. He got on well with them in short and is now essentially an ambassador from them. He's a good egg.

[ardtole]

I don't see it as an issue for the irfu, more a problem more a world rugby problem. To me its an absolutely ridiculous rule, I lived in New York for 4 years, I never felt American, I lived in England and never felt English.

Down the line for example, how would grassroots rugby supporters feel if the next Brian O'Driscoll and Paul O'connor were recruited by Northampton at 17 years of age and represented England at 23/24  whatever the rule is.

Only a matter of time before enough money is thrown at an individual down the line. In my opinion that is what Ireland are doing recruiting the likes of Lowe, Stander etc, its a definite policy to Identity future international players via the provinces, into the national team.

I've no problem with the players individually, fantastic players but I don't think they should be representing Ireland.

[6th sam]

It's not part of his contract.

If a player becomes an International his "club" though get allocated extra tickets, hence senior clubs in Dublin try to sign up players to their club. Lowe picked Clondalkin as he had requests from fans who were members on the club. He got on well with them in short and is now essentially an ambassador from them. He's a good egg.

I don't doubt he's a good lad, but doesn't make him Irish. Why do players choose particular clubs ? If he is getting paid I've no problem, it's a professional sport

[Baile Brigín 2]

Interesting discussion. Modern Ireland is a different place than 1980s Ireland.

What is Irish identity and nationalism in sport?

Is it 23 players who live and work in the country, integrated into their communities? Is it 23 players who represent 32 counties? Is it 23 players who reflect Ireland's policies of immigration and integration as demonstrated in the offices of working Ireland? Is it 23 players who upon retiring will give back to the game in Ireland and eventually integrate themselves back into working Ireland?

Or is it 14 players who live overseas? Is it the 14 players who represent 26 counties? Is it the 14 players who will retire millionaire's and vast majority will remain overseas giving little back to the game or the communities in Ireland?

I was born and bred on a council estate, I find myself working for an American Corporation in Ireland, managing a team of diverse employees. They are from Egypt, El Salvador, Poland, USA, India, Brazil, Lithuania, Spain. If I am looking for a team to represent modern Ireland and someone I can identify with there is only one winner.

Great post.
As long as someone is committed to the cause and has an appropriate passport they should be welcome. If you don't qualify for, or won't commit to an Irish passport ( or British, I imagine in the case of most Ulster rugby players) , then what other criteria make it appropriate for you to represent Ireland ? Whereas I see immigration to Ireland as positive , there has to be some evidence of national commitment to qualify for the international team. Hypothetically if ireland got to rugby World Cup final and were beaten by a Welsh side laced with players with NZ passports, would people be ok with that?

Getting beat by Wales is never OK 

The question you're asking is should the IRFU follow the criteria as set out by the IRB or stick with home born players?

When the IRFU went down the route of project players then I think the cat is already out of the bag. I really don't have issues with James Lowe, Stander of Bundee Aki playing for Ireland but I'm not involved in grass roots rugby and probably if I was I may have a different viewpoint.

The Soccer lads are making much of the home born aspect of the current squad but don't be kidding yourselves as if Michael Keane, Declan Rice or Grealish has continued to play for Ireland from their youth days then they'd be welcomed by open arms.

It's interesting that James Lowe is in the news at the moment as he made his debut for Ireland at the weekend even though he's a New Zealander and the usual does this guy care about Ireland etc stories appear in the paper.

What none of those journos looked at is the work he does around Dublin for underage and local rugby. All the provincial players have a club side they are affiliated with and when James Lowe arrived he was approached by all the big Dublin clubs like St. Marys, Blackrock etc to represent them but he wasn't interested and told Leinster to pick for a small club for him to work with and he now is affiliated with Clondalkin RFC. He regularly helps out with training the kids, medal presentations etc in the club and is the first Leinster/Irish player to be associated them. He has said in interviews for Leinster that helping out a small club like Clondalkin who wouldn't have the resources of the bigger clubs in the city is an important to him as it's a chance for him to give back to the community

Good for him.

Doesn't make him Irish though.

No, but it does show playing and living in Ireland for him is not just about benefiting his career. Pity I can't say the same about our most of our football imports.

One of the main reasons there are less players playing for Ireland who were born outside of Ireland is because FIFA have tightened the eligibility rules for players who want to go down this route and not because of any moral decisions made by the FAI and/or Irish managers.

I don't have a problem with Ireland doing this by the way. We are a small country with limited playing resources and have no structures in place to bring players through from schoolboy levels to international standard. It's not so long ago we were trying to get Patrick Bamford to declare for Ireland as a solution to Ireland's forward/goal scoring problems

I do find it hypocritcal though for football fans though to question Irish rugby players "Irishness" given they the tenuous link some of them have with this country before suddenly turning up to wear the green jersey.

Of course its to benefit his career. He isn't here for the food.

Absolute nonsense re tightening of rules. The rules were changed to the granny rule. You are literally making things up.

The 'tenious link' is a passport.

[dublin7]

Shame on James Lowe for wanting bro give something back to Ireland alright. He is nothing like that Irish football patriots Clinton Morrison, Declan Rice and Jack Grealish.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Shame on James Lowe for wanting bro give something back to Ireland alright. He is nothing like that Irish football patriots Clinton Morrison, Declan Rice and Jack Grealish.

You do understand he has to be aligned to a club?

You do understand Morrison would not happen under Kenny?

[johnnycool]

Shame on James Lowe for wanting bro give something back to Ireland alright. He is nothing like that Irish football patriots Clinton Morrison, Declan Rice and Jack Grealish.

You do understand he has to be aligned to a club?

You do understand Morrison would not happen under Kenny?

That's Patrick Bamford bolloxed then. He will be gutted.

[dublin7]

Shame on James Lowe for wanting bro give something back to Ireland alright. He is nothing like that Irish football patriots Clinton Morrison, Declan Rice and Jack Grealish.

You do understand he has to be aligned to a club?

You do understand Morrison would not happen under Kenny?

If a premier league player announced tomorrow he was declaring for Ireland he'd be accepted with open arms. Your profoundly wrong if you think anything else