Call for a United Iberia

[Evil Genius]

These "outraged Portugese compatriots" wouldn't be Protestants, by any chance? 

And do any Irish observers who support the idea of Portugal being absorbed into Iberia also deny the right of e.g. Catalonia or the Basque Country not to be included in the new entity (or Spain, for that matter)?


http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2776124.ece
Writer calls for Portugal to be province of Spain
By Elizabeth Nash in Madrid
Published: 17 July 2007
The Portuguese writer and Nobel Laureate José Saramago has outraged his compatriots by urging Spain and Portugal to unite in a single country that he proposes to call "Iberia".

Portugal would not lose its identity as part of Spain, Saramago says, but would become an additional autonomous region in a country that already enjoys greatly devolved powers.

"I believe we'll end up as one integrated country ... in which Portugal will be another province of Spain. We would continue to speak Portuguese, and write, think and feel in our own language," the writer predicts in an interview in the Lisbon daily Diario de Noticias. Spain consists of various nationalities and languages that coexist, he says, and Portugal's position in Spain would be comparable to that of Catalonia or Galicia.

"Catalonia has its own culture, and is at the same time part of Spain, as is the Basque country and Galicia, so we wouldn't have to become Spaniards," said Saramago, 85, the first writer to receive the Nobel Prize for Literature for work written in Portuguese.

Saramago's proposal flies in the face of the prevailing view that, rather than absorbing new territory, Spain risks splitting apart. He dismissed that view, saying: "The only region in Spain that seeks independence is the Basque country, and no one really believes it."

His prophecy aggravates a longstanding rivalry between the neighbours, who share a frontier but "turn their backs on each other", as the saying goes. Portugal predates Spain by several centuries and dominated a trading empire, while Spain was a mere patchwork of warring kingdoms; but it still feels overshadowed. Spain, meanwhile, tends to mostly ignore Portugal.

"It's very easy to hate Portugal from abroad, and more difficult to defend it from abroad, which Mr Saramago is manifestly incapable of doing," railed Antonio Martins de Cruz, a former foreign minister and ambassador to Madrid. "Mr Saramago's vision is of the 19th, rather than the 21st, century," the diplomat said.

The Portuguese have not forgiven their only Nobel Laureate - an anti-establishment figure and Communist Party member - for abandoning his homeland. Saramago quit Portugal after Lisbon banned his 1991 novel, The Gospel according to Jesus Christ, claiming it was offensive to Catholics. He moved to Lanzarote, in the Spanish Canary Islands, with his Spanish wife.

Saramago's fiction is an intricate combination of comic fantasy and astute political observation. The novel The Stone Raft, published in 1996 - two years before he received his Nobel award - tells how the Iberian peninsula breaks away from Europe and floats into the Atlantic towards South America seeking cultural identity, and bumping into the Azores en route.

But he has thought out his one-nation proposal in some detail: "We wouldn't be ruled by Spaniards: there would be MPs from both countries in a single parliament representing all the political forces of Iberia. And just as in Spain, where each autonomous region has its own regional parliament, we would have ours, too."

[armaghniac]

I don't approve of countries absorbing their neighbours unless there is a genuine widespread democratic wish for this to happen. I am sure that evil genius will agree and agree that England should disabsorb  Ireland.

[Evil Genius]

I don't approve of countries absorbing their neighbours unless there is a genuine widespread democratic wish for this to happen. I am sure that evil genius will agree and agree that England should disabsorb  Ireland.

I don't approve of countries absorbing, or even aspiring to absorb, their neighbours in the absence of consent, either, which is why I was pleased that as part of the Good Friday Agreement which underwrote Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland removed its offensive, illegal and irredentist claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

As for the notion that "England should disabsorb Ireland" [sic], I'm not sure quite what you mean. Is this a reference to the England Cricket Team selecting Ireland cricketer Ed Joyce perhaps? 

[Mentalman]

Don't know much about the Portugezzers, but were they brought to the Iberian peninsula from a nearby neighbour, and granted the confiscated lands previously occupied by local clans of another nationality, culture and religion? I thought the state was established by some sort of internecine feud?

[deiseach]

I don't approve of countries absorbing, or even aspiring to absorb, their neighbours in the absence of consent, either, which is why I was pleased that as part of the Good Friday Agreement which underwrote Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland removed its offensive, illegal and irredentist claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

As always in these cases, I ask why the position of 'Northern Ireland' is cast in stone? Any true democrat would actively support (for example) West Belfast's routinely expressed desire to secede from the Union.

[Fishead_Sam]

Has Conor Cruise O'Brein adopted a Latin sudoname and started writing in a Madrid rag?

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

I don't approve of countries absorbing, or even aspiring to absorb, their neighbours in the absence of consent, either, which is why I was pleased that as part of the Good Friday Agreement which underwrote Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland removed its offensive, illegal and irredentist claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

I wouldn't suppose your opinions are directed at what some might call the British Empire's "offensive and illegal" expansionist policies during its 'glorious' 200+ year reign, and, of course, since they've had a presence in Ireland since 1169, that might, in your eyes, deem that  particular occupation acceptable?

Do you think the British presence in India/Palestine/southern Africa/northern America was a good thing?

And do you believe all this North-South co-operation on tourism, roads, health services and commerce in general is a "SFIRA" smoke and mirrors policy towards a united Ireland and that the idea of working together for the mutual benefit of all people on this little island is totally repugnant to you?

[his holiness nb]

as part of the Good Friday Agreement which underwrote Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland removed its offensive, illegal and irredentist claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

Would you ever just f**k the f**k off EG.
Its not annoying any more, its boring 

[magickingdom]

as part of the Good Friday Agreement which underwrote Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland removed its offensive, illegal and irredentist claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

Would you ever just f**k the f**k off EG.
Its not annoying any more, its boring 

and the brits agreed that when the majority in ni wanted a ui it would happen. ha as british as finchely my arse.. 

[Evil Genius]

Don't know much about the Portugezzers, but were they brought to the Iberian peninsula from a nearby neighbour, and granted the confiscated lands previously occupied by local clans of another nationality, culture and religion? I thought the state was established by some sort of internecine feud?

No, I don't think modern day Portugese did arrive there in the manner you describe. Though it is just possible that any of their ancestors who were Iberian Celts will have travelled to an island to the North West, seized control of the land from the previous occupants and assimilated them into their own "nationality", culture and religion...

Imperialist Bastards those Celts, eh? 

[Evil Genius]

As always in these cases, I ask why the position of 'Northern Ireland' is cast in stone? Any true democrat would actively support (for example) West Belfast's routinely expressed desire to secede from the Union.

I wouldn't say it is "cast in stone", merely that it is universally recognised in international law, including by the United Nations, United States, European Union and just about every other nation state, including NI's nearest neighbour, the Irish Republic.

As for West Belfast's secession, would that perforce include e.g. the Shankill Road? Perhaps it might, but in the event of East Belfast seceding from any future United Ireland, I wonder what the occupants of the Short Strand might think...

[his holiness nb]

Its universally recognised in International Law because we have f**k all choice otherwise 

Yet most people in the Republic vote for the good friday agreement as a stepping stone to a United Ireland which will happen when there is a nationalist majority.

But I suppose you disagree and think we all vote for it so we can keep the North British?

[Evil Genius]

I don't approve of countries absorbing, or even aspiring to absorb, their neighbours in the absence of consent, either, which is why I was pleased that as part of the Good Friday Agreement which underwrote Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland removed its offensive, illegal and irredentist claim to sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

I wouldn't suppose your opinions are directed at what some might call the British Empire's "offensive and illegal" expansionist policies during its 'glorious' 200+ year reign, and, of course, since they've had a presence in Ireland since 1169, that might, in your eyes, deem that  particular occupation acceptable?

Do you think the British presence in India/Palestine/southern Africa/northern America was a good thing?

And do you believe all this North-South co-operation on tourism, roads, health services and commerce in general is a "SFIRA" smoke and mirrors policy towards a united Ireland and that the idea of working together for the mutual benefit of all people on this little island is totally repugnant to you?

Whilst I have a view on India, Palestine, South Africa etc (and one which might surprise you, at that), I fail to see how or why we should order how we run our present day affairs by reference to events which occurred decades or even centuries before any of us was even born.

On which subject, I have no problem with two neighbours cooperating freely on matters of mutual benefit, indeed, I welcome it.

Further, I have no problem if particular parties see such coperation advancing whatever aspirations they might have for merger between the neighbours, so long as it is not part of some undisclosed process designed to lead to such a merger, outwith the democratically expressed wishes of a majority of the respective populations.

Of course, for political reasons, SF will try their hardest to persuade their supporters that the process is designed to do just that. However, I don't have too much of a problem with that, since I'd always much rather they lie to themselves than lie to me.

[Evil Genius]

and the brits agreed that when the majority in ni wanted a ui it would happen. ha as british as finchely my arse.. 

It was always the case that if a majority in NI so willed it, NI could leave the Union. The same applies to Scotland and Wales (and England, for that matter).

All that has changed recently, is that since the GFA, the rest of the world (including the Irish Republic and Sinn Fein!) have accepted that NI will never leave the UK unless a majority agrees.

Simple, really. 

[Mentalman]

Don't know much about the Portugezzers, but were they brought to the Iberian peninsula from a nearby neighbour, and granted the confiscated lands previously occupied by local clans of another nationality, culture and religion? I thought the state was established by some sort of internecine feud?

No, I don't think modern day Portugese did arrive there in the manner you describe. Though it is just possible that any of their ancestors who were Iberian Celts will have travelled to an island to the North West, seized control of the land from the previous occupants and assimilated them into their own "nationality", culture and religion...

Imperialist Bastards those Celts, eh? 

Maybe the assimilation thing is the problem then? Rather than subjugation?

In any event, we're in the age of concensus here. Would there be concensus on this on the Iberian peninsula, or even a desire for it among even a sizeable minority of the population? Does anyone want it, except for Mr. Saramago? It's really apples and oranges comparing it to our own situation. In any event he uses the Basque, Catalonian and Galicians as examples to back his arguement, which is just BS, as all have sizeable minorities, in some cases majorities, who feel a lot on antipithy to the Castillion Madrid based government. Actually I would of thought a further fracture of Iberia more likely than a "reunification" no-one wants. The article might just as well have been titled "Disillusioned Crank Seeks Somnething Nobody Wants" and "Needs to regenerate his flagging career" as the sub heading.