The OFFICIAL Liverpool Supporters thread

[AZOffaly]

Sammy, I'd say that order has slightly been skewed now. Notwithstanding individual club circumstances, i.e. Chelsea and Unilted wanting a CL above all at the moment, I would think that on average, to both fans and teams they would rank

1. League
2. Champions League
3. FA Cup
4. UEFA Cup
5. League Cup

[GalwayBayBoy]

Interesting article by Paul Tomkins on the official site today.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG157443071025-1458.htm


Traditionally stronger from the start of winter onwards, the foundations for a title challenge have been laid, even if the scaffolding is currently a bit wobbly.
 
But there's been a clear reversal of fortunes with the European form. While far from out, and while still capable of winning the necessary games, it's very much an uphill climb.
 
But I really don't understand any criticism of the manager over the European form, given it's an area where Benítez has excelled since his arrival at Anfield. He's a European master, but that doesn't mean he's going to succeed in it every season. Particularly when deprived of three of his best five signings: the spine of Agger, Alonso and Torres.
 
It's been an undeniably poor Champions League campaign so far, but only five months ago the team went to Athens in optimistic mood. I know you can't live off the achievements of last season, but equally you can't say that current form is definitive of the quality of the team or the manager, and ignore the recent past.
 
Arsenal, this weekend's visitors at Anfield, are currently in supreme form, but that won't last unbroken until May. There will be injuries, and there will be disrupting factors, such as the African Nations Cup. And if they're still going well both major competitions in the New Year, something will inevitably have to give. It always does.
 
Even defeat at home to Arsenal on Sunday will not mean Liverpool's season is over, or anything remotely like it.
 
I loathe this kind of thinking about the game. It's the kind of thinking that suggests Liverpool were better off sneaking out of the back door of the Ataturk at half-time when 3-0 down to AC Milan. Success in sport often means overcoming the odds. It's about riding out difficult patches and finding strength to go again. It's what winners do.
 
Nothing is over in the league with three quarters of the season left, unless you're right down the bottom and in dire straits. Perhaps the reason I seem optimistic to some is simply because I don't feel the Reds are going to win every game and stroll through any given season, therefore I don't hit rock bottom every time things don't go our way. I expect a bumpy ride, but to arrive somewhere satisfying come May.
 
You'd think no other teams in the history of the game ever had slumps. I'm not denying that the team are playing below their capacity, but we have to get away from the finality that surrounds the thinking at such times. Man United were woeful at the start of the season. Now they can do no wrong. It happens.
 
I will continue my attempts to move football debate away from sensationalist "all or nothing" rhetoric. All valid criticism and concerns over form –– which are natural –– get lost in a sea of hysterical overstatement. Every defeat is a disaster, signalling the end of the world.
 
You just have to look at Arsenal, to see how big clubs with classy players and a quality manager can find things change dramatically from one season to the next, often unexpectedly so. Two seasons ago Arsenal made the Champions League final. The following season they flunked at the first knock-out stage, to a team Liverpool subsequently dispatched with consummate ease.
 
Are Liverpool now a bad side in Europe? Does Benítez no longer understand continental football? Of course not.
 
Just as, in 2005/06, Liverpool hadn't suddenly become a bad European side when losing to Benfica in both legs without scoring. (Coincidentally, Benfica were managed by Ronald Koeman, the same man who undid Arsenal last season, and on whom Rafa reaped revenge.)
 
Indeed, sandwiched between the less remarkable league seasons of 04/05 and 06/07, it was Liverpool's best league season in terms of points since 1988. I keep harking back to the stat, but to win 66 per cent of league games in a season is proof Benítez knows English football; only Bob Paisley won more league games in a season for the Reds (based on 38 games), and even he did it just once.
 
It shows what can be done. When Liverpool ended with 82 points, just 17 months ago, Arsenal were way back on 67.
 
Maybe it all seems a bit schizophrenic, but Alternate Season Syndrome can be quite common. Few top teams do consistently well in the same competition year after year. As soon as you do well in one competition, you become a more valued scalp. If you did less well in another competition the year before, the pressure is lifted a little.
 
And once you do well in one competition, everyone suddenly says you should be concentrating on another.
 
You only need to look at Benitez's past for evidence of Alternate Season Syndrome, starting with his first season at Valencia. The pattern reads: league title, league disappointment (5th), league title, league disappointment (5th), league "success" (Liverpool's highest domestic points tally for 18 years), league disappointment (3rd, but fairly off the pace). So far this season, the pattern is very much in place.
 
Confidence is a strange thing, as at times it can attach itself to one competition and not another, depending on how things are going. Teams in the relegation zone can go on a good cup run, and teams doing well in the league can balls it up in the cup.
 
I felt Liverpool had turned a corner in terms of overall confidence after beating Everton, and there were some signs of that against Besiktas; for the second game running there was a first half where the opposition's only shot on target was an unfortunate Sami Hyypia own goal.
 
Whereas in the league the Reds just refuse to be beaten, rescuing last-minute points, in Europe the belief isn't as strong this time around.
 
While we are digging out results of one kind or another in the league –– apparently the sign of a good team when not playing well –– the fact that Liverpool aren't at their best means the chain can break at its weakest point, and after the defeat at home to Marseilles, the weakest point this season seems to have become the Champions League.
 
The same thing happened in those two legs against Benfica –– it coincided with a dodgy spell for the club in the Premiership, but whereas a paucity of goals in the league didn't stop the Reds picking up a few key 1-0 wins here and there to keep towards the top of the table, in Europe it proved costly.
 
You can see a similar thing with both of this year's French opponents. Toulouse are actually doing much better than Marseilles in the French league, but the floor was well and truly wiped with Toulouse at Anfield in August. Marseilles' confidence, meanwhile, is totally in Europe.
 
Getting back to the Premiership, last year Arsenal looked a pretty unremarkable team. Now, with the addition of virtually no-one of any note, and the departure of a world-class striker, they suddenly look pretty remarkable. The very same thing can be said of Manchester United a year earlier, when they signed only one player and sold van Nistelrooy.
 
Arsenal's away form in the Premiership last season was poor. As was Liverpool's. This year, the two have the best away records in the division. So things can change –– sometimes frequently within a season, other times from campaign to campaign.
 
I'm actually more certain than ever things are moving in the right direction at Liverpool, in that the players Benítez added this summer are capable of taking the team to a new level, but it's not quite gelling at the moment. There are signs, flashes, and there have been games when it's come together perfectly, but there are a lot of quality additions in need of bedding in to form a cohesive unit.
 
In rotating, Benítez has actually been giving each of the new players a steady taste of the action. He could have stuck three or four of them into the team at once at the start of the season, and persisted with the same side, and maybe they would all be in top form now. Who knows?
 
But if they'd struggled in those initial games, as can easily happen with any new signings, Liverpool might not have even made the Champions League, while points could have been dropped earlier in the league that, as equally-big-spending Tottenham have found, makes clawing them back incredibly difficult. Then everyone would have been even more hysterical.
 
Man United added a few expensive players, but as champions they only really needed Tevez immediately. Arsenal added no major players, and you can see the continuity there. Benítez had no such luxury. He is still trying to unify his most significant summer's rebuilding work. The fact that he's had to introduce new players while losing key spine players to injury going back to the start of the season has made life more difficult.
 
One new boy, Ryan Babel, showed some real touches of class in Istanbul –– he uses his body brilliantly, and has amazing control and balance, not to mention a real turn of pace; I doubt John Barnes was much different, or indeed any better, at just 20. Babel's got a lot of developing still to do to bring his game together, to learn when to pass and when to go it alone, but his talent is clear to see.
 
Benayoun is such a clever player who can open teams up with his movement and vision. Voronin is a versatile attacker who has already managed four important goals. Lucas already looks a quality all-round midfield general at just 20. And of course, Torres is the kind of world-class striker who can make a difference for a long time to come. So the quality is there, it's just a question of bringing it together, and bringing out the confidence.
 
Believe me, I do not defend Benítez for the sake of it, or because it's expected of me. I defend him because I'd defend any Liverpool manager who I feel has what it takes. I'd like to think I'd have done the same for Shankly and Paisley during their difficult periods, particularly early in their tenures, and especially with Shankly during his seven trophy-free years from 1966 to 1973.
 
And if Benítez's Alternate Season Syndrome continues, then there should still be a lot of interest come May, and plenty more to write about.

[The Real Laoislad]

Excuse my language but who gives a f**k about the FA Cup.

I do.Always loved FA Cup Final day and especially when Liverpool are in it..Will always remember the two Merseyside finals in the late 80's

[dec]

Excuse my language but who gives a f**k about the FA Cup.

I'm going to take a guess that you're under 30 and have been brought up in the 'football began with the Premiership era', otherwise you wouldn't be making that statement.

As far as football in Engerlund the order of importance is
League
FA Cup
Europe
League Cup

Always has been and always will be.

So from 77 to 84 you would have swapped the 4 Europen Cups for 4 FA Cups ?

[Balboa]

Regarding Paul Tomkins artcicle, i have read his stuff quite few times and the glass is always half full for him and the red tinted glasses are always on, which i suppose they have to be as he is contributing to the official website. If he asked searching questions of the team/manager he would be out of a job sharpish.

As for importance of trophies -

League
Champions League (Swap those round for Chelsea & United)
FA Cup
League Cup

[Over the Bar]

League
Champions League (Swap those round for Chelsea & United)

The CL can never take precedence over the league but rather is the icing on the cake having won the league.  A team can't claim to be the best in Europe if they aren't even the best in their own country.   

[J70]

Regarding Paul Tomkins artcicle, i have read his stuff quite few times and the glass is always half full for him and the red tinted glasses are always on, which i suppose they have to be as he is contributing to the official website. If he asked searching questions of the team/manager he would be out of a job sharpish.

As for importance of trophies -

League
Champions League (Swap those round for Chelsea & United)
FA Cup
League Cup

I think Tompkins is spot on regarding the knee-jerk reactions of the media and fans though, whether to the recent bad form or the rotation. Is it Benitez' fault that the likes of Gerrard, Sissoko, Carragher and so on are in relatively poor form, or that Alonso and Agger have been injured for the past six weeks? And even Ferguson and Wenger have been through the "have they reached the end of the line?" bullshit over the past five years. Let the man do his job. He's proven he's a winner in the past, there's no reason why he can't do it again.

[nifan]

Id take CL over FA cup as well, but the FA cup is still a very important competition.

[The Real Laoislad]

Bad news about Pennant,Wasn't his biggest fan last year but i thought he had started this season quite well
Any word on Torres?

[DirtyDozen12]

Pennant is out for 10 week's

Liverpool have been rocked by the news that Jermaine Pennant requires surgery on a stress fracture of his right tibia and faces 10 weeks on the sidelines.

The winger limped out of the Red's Champions League defeat at Besiktas on Wednesday night and the club tonight confirmed he had been carrying a problem for almost the whole of this season.

He will go under the knife this weekend.

Club spokesman Ian Cotton said on the Reds' official website, www.liverpoolfc.tv: "For the last eight weeks Jermaine has undergone intensive treatment at Melwood between matches for the injury.

"But following an acute exacerbation of the problem during the game against Besiktas, it has now been decided he requires surgery.

"We anticipate Jermaine will be out for approximately 10 weeks."

Makes that smart mouth Ray Houghton eat his words now.  He said that players always develop a 'limp' when they are substituted, implying that there was nothing wrong with Pennant.  Bad news about Pennant, though he was playing well this year, looked a lot more dangerous than Babbel the against Besiktas.

[corn02]

I am under 30 Sammy but I have a sound knowledge and appreciate the value of the FA Cup historically. I love the competition but my statement was in regards to Liverpools situation not the competition as a whole. Rafa will be judged on the league this year and winning the FA Cup will do nothing to help him in my view if he performs poorly in the league. It is third on the agenda for the Big Four so therefore of no significance this year.

[J70]

1-1 probably a fair enough result in the end, given that, for all their obvious technical superiority, Arsenal didn't create that many chances.
They still looked very impressive though, and assuming they don't suffer a serious run of injuries, they should be well in with a chance for the title.

Liverpool didn't create much either, and with Alonso and Torres probably out again for another while, you'd have to be worried with games like Blackburn away coming up next. They mind grind out draws in those sort of games, but the rest will be disappearing off into the distance if Liverpool don't snap out of this slump soon. Mascherano was superb (is there a better ball-winner around?), but some of the other players such as Riise look to be struggling. Crouch should've done enough to earn a starting position next time out, but that isn't guaranteed. I'd be more inclined to leave Voronin in there instead of Kuyt, as he seems to have a good eye for a through pass, but his first touch lets him down a bit, which isn't good when you need someone to hold up the ball (which is something Kuyt is excellent at)!

Hard to know whether Liverpool can mount a challenge. They're still there, but the gap is growing by a point or two each week.

[The Real Laoislad]

Was a great atmosphere in Anfield yesterday and a cracking match to be at,Was disappointed we didn't get the win but relieved we weren't beat my 3 or 4 which we easily could have been.
Thought they played far better in the second half compared to the first and Crouch made a big difference when he came on.
Would have been nice to get the 3 points but lucky really to get the 1.
Arsenal are some team to watch live in the flesh,the movement off the ball and the passing they do is just mesmerising

[GalwayBayBoy]

Was a great atmosphere in Anfield yesterday and a cracking match to be at,Was disappointed we didn't get the win but relieved we weren't beat my 3 or 4 which we easily could have been.
Thought they played far better in the second half compared to the first and Crouch made a big difference when he came on.
Would have been nice to get the 3 points but lucky really to get the 1.
Arsenal are some team to watch live in the flesh,the movement off the ball and the passing they do is just mesmerising

In fairness even though Arsenal hit the post twice Liverpool had plenty of chances too and Almunia had to pull off a few good saves (once from Gerrard and twice from Crouch). Arsenal had a lot of possession but Liverpool had the better chances until the last 10 minutes. I thought a draw was a fair result. Didn't help us that were virtually playing the game with 9 and a half men (Torres never looked fit to play and Alonso was only a bit better). Then Mascherano played the final 15 minutes on one leg he was limping so bad.

Terrible news that Torres and Alonso have reinjured themselves again. Neither of them looked right yesterday. Torres gone for 3 weeks and Alonso for a month. Mascherano just has bad bruising thankfully. Injuries are killing us this season. Carra missed a few weeks earlier on and now Agger, Alonso, Torres and Pennant all have significant injuries. I guess it's some consolation that we're still unbeaten in the league given the run we've had but we haven't been able to build up any kind of momentum at all. Our home form in particular is dodgy.

Thought Crouch did really well when he came on and wasn't sulking. Unlucky not to score. He always seems to give Arsenal problems and I'd have him in the team ahead of Voronin and Kuyt anyday if he could keep up that level of performance. Gerrard too seems to be getting back to some good form.

Just have to try and stay in touch with the leaders now while we get over this run of injuries and hope that we don't lose too much ground. Away to Blackburn next weekend so that'll be another tough one.

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Pack 'er up for the season folks

Liverpool have been dealt a blow with the news that Fernando Torres has been ruled out of action for three weeks with an adductor injury.
A Liverpool spokesman said: "A scan this morning has shown a tear to a different adductor muscle to his original injury and we expect Fernando to be out for about three weeks.

"As for Xabi Alonso, an x-ray showed a fracture to the fourth metatarsal in his left foot. Xabi will be seen by a consultant tomorrow after which we will have a much better idea of the timescales involved.
"With regards to Javier Mascherano, he had an x-ray which has showed no bone injury, but he will receive intensive treatment on extensive bruising in his foot."