An Dun v Corcaigh, Saturday 23rd July

[ardtole]

Saturday is do or die and while I dont expect Ambrose to start, I do expect him to feature at some stage. It would be a massive lift for the whole team and supporters to see him enter the fray even if only for the vital last 10 or 20 minutes.

[put-it-up-again]

http://tv.gaa.ie/#/49016/976/round-the-square-episode-4-2011

Good interview with Daniel Goulding here.

[Frank Casey]

Expect changes in the Cork FB line  from team named. Eoin Cotter and Eoin Cadogan rumoured to start instead of Jamie O'Sullivan and Paudi Kissane. Move would see Canty at CB and Miskella on wing.

[Mike Sheehy]

Kerry get provincial medals almost every year for effectively winning a single match, and can plan their summers in the virtual certainty that they will at least be in the last round of the qualifiers and more likely in the last eight. They won an All Ireland as recently as 1997 without having to beat a single county which had lifted Sam in the previous 40 years. They produce outstanding footballers, but it has never been a level playing field.

we have won or reached AI finals through the back door and front door. This constant bleating about the provincials is just the usual bullshit excuse from lads like you. We saw what happened when you played Wicklow and Longford(??) a few years back. This supposed differnce in standards is completely overblown. We have not been caught in the qualifiers because we dont underestimate  any team unlike you Down lads who thought you only had to turn up to beat those Munster "minnows" Clare.

Also, as I have said before, you Ulster bies always moan but I never hear any of ye do anything about it. If the situation is so unjust why havent you done anything about it ? When was the last time a motion went before congress to scrap the provincials..? was the motion proposed by someone from Ulster ?..how did Ulster vote ?

I say bring it on. Scrap the provincials and go with open draw, champions league format..whatever...as long as we dont have to listen to ye're lame excuses.

[BarryBreensBandage]

Kerry get provincial medals almost every year for effectively winning a single match, and can plan their summers in the virtual certainty that they will at least be in the last round of the qualifiers and more likely in the last eight. They won an All Ireland as recently as 1997 without having to beat a single county which had lifted Sam in the previous 40 years. They produce outstanding footballers, but it has never been a level playing field.

we have won or reached AI finals through the back door and front door. This constant bleating about the provincials is just the usual bullshit excuse from lads like you. We saw what happened when you played Wicklow and Longford(??) a few years back. This supposed differnce in standards is completely overblown. We have not been caught in the qualifiers because we dont underestimate  any team unlike you Down lads who thought you only had to turn up to beat those Munster "minnows" Clare.

Also, as I have said before, you Ulster bies always moan but I never hear any of ye do anything about it. If the situation is so unjust why havent you done anything about it ? When was the last time a motion went before congress to scrap the provincials..? was the motion proposed by someone from Ulster ?..how did Ulster vote ?

I say bring it on. Scrap the provincials and go with open draw, champions league format..whatever...as long as we dont have to listen to ye're lame excuses.

Would have to say I agree with Mike Sheehy here. If the provincials were the reason Kerry won so many All-Irelands, why then have Cork not won the same - or in Connacht, why have Galway and Mayo not got the same record as Kerry?

Yes I can understand the frustration of not winning even a provincial medal in Ulster and Leinster -
For me Kerry have always been best at adapting to the 'new' style of play.

They took on the Down style of football after the sixties and returned it better than anyone played it. They took the Tyrone/Armagh style of football and garnered a few All Irelands from it, producing some of the best footballers the game has seen.

They do to football what The Beatles and the Stones did to American Blues music, they took it in and brought it forward.

While I am not a fan of some of their tactics and Jack O'Connor's 'oh woe is me' attitude over the past couple of years, you can't question their pedigree.

[Kerry Mike]

Would have to say I agree with Mike Sheehy here.

Now there's something you dont see every day.

If the provincials were the reason Kerry won so many All-Irelands, why then have Cork not won the same - or in Connacht, why have Galway and Mayo not got the same record as Kerry?

Or Cavan's 39 Ulster titles and 5 All Irelands !

[Kerry Mike]

They won an All Ireland as recently as 1997 without having to beat a single county which had lifted Sam in the previous 40 years.

Yes and it was 11 years for us before that so I dont see the relevance of 1997

[Mourne Rover]

The relevance of 1997 was that Kerry, even after a relatively poor spell, were given the opportunity to win an All Ireland without having to face even one of the other main contenders of the time.

My previous post said that Kerry have won the most All Irelands because they consistently produce outstanding footballers, and that would be the case under any format for the competition. However, if there was an open draw or a Champions League structure, Kerry would almost certainly still be the most successful county but they would not be as completely dominant as they are now.

Connacht is a province with a limited population but it is usually tight there between Mayo, Galway and Roscommon. Sligo beat Mayo and Galway last year but lost to Leitrim this summer, so there is a reasonable standard across the five counties.

In Munster, Cork are a dual county, and hurling is very much the main game for many of their clubs, so there are periods when they find it difficult to compete with Kerry.

As for the other four counties, these are their provincial records, Clare - one title in 94 years; Tipperary  - none in 76 years; Waterford - none in 103 years; and Limerick - none in 105 years .

With seven of the nine Ulster counties winning provincial titles in less than a quarter of a century, and the other two, Antrim and Fermanagh, losing finals in the last three years, it is difficult to see a level playing field even before considering that five Ulster teams have won the All Ireland in the last 20 years.

The current mix of provincial championships and the open draw would be the fairest option if the weaker Munster counties could be encouraged to push on. Clare should certainly have beaten Down in the first round qualifier, so nothing is impossible.

[bcarrier]

Having got a kick in the arse from Kerry Cork will be a very dangerous animal on Saturday. At the same time if Ambrose was back and properly match fit I would fancy Down to do a job on them ...Through my red and black tinted glasses the single best display of last years championship was  Down's vs Kerry  and Ambrose was central to that. Down never reached those heights again and lost the All Ireland final by a point. In Ambrose'  continued absence and with one of our other key men Danny / Benny  carrying injuries it will be hard to imagine that Down can reverse form from last September.

The changes in personnel in the Down defence may marginally improve it but last years excellent half back line are struggling to find form . Down midfield and own kickout strategy have disimproved . If James starts Anton McArdle there it will be a real gamble on youth. Up front we might have blooded a few more options than last year . Laverty if he gets protection from the referee could cause problems. Mooney if introduced will ask similar questions from his defender. Marty though hasnt been able to impose himself on games in the same way this season - John pulling out and this Australia business has to be a distraction - and we really can only hope that  Croke Park will bring the best out of him .

No matter what kind of performance Down put up , Brolly and his ilk will keep writing of last years run as some kind of lucky run/fluke if they dont win.  Down need to win .

   



 

[bcarrier]

http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=2818

Down set to renew rivalry with Cork in football qualifiers
By Noel Horgan Saturday July 23rd, 2011

BY NOEL HORGAN



DOWN were the surprise packets in last year's championship and not everyone was convinced they would be capable of making a major bid for All-Ireland glory in 2011.

An indifferent league campaign did nothing to dispel the doubts surrounding Down's ability to build on their meteoric rise to prominence last season, and the notion that they were destined to make an early exit from the Sam Maguire race gathered momentum after they went under by five points to Armagh in their opening test in Ulster.

They almost came a cropper in the first round of the qualifiers when the intervention of corner forward Conor Laverty, who cleared a goal-bound shot off the line in stoppage time, denied Clare a famous victory in Ennis.

Bearing in mind that Clare had shipped a 14-point thrashing from Cork in Munster, the game raised massive questions about Down's current well-being, and it suggests they are unlikely to avenge last year's All-Ireland final defeat when rivalry is renewed with the Rebels at Croke Park next Saturday evening.

But it should be noted that Down didn't exactly set the world on fire in the early rounds of the qualifiers last year, coming through with four points to spare over Longford, and finishing just two to the good against Offaly after that.

They romped home in the fourth round against a Sligo side that was playing a third championship game in successive weeks and that had endured a morale-shattering defeat at the hands of Roscommon in the Connacht final.



Not enough

It wasn't enough to convince the pundits that the Mourne men were equipped to put it up to Kerry in the All-Ireland quarter final, but they rose to the occasion in great style, fashioning a comfortable six-point victory to extend the county's 100% record in championship encounters with the Kingdom to five games since 1960.

Buoyed up by that win over the reigning All-Ireland champions, Down edged out Kildare in the semi final, and they came within an ace of bridging a 16-year gap in the showpiece.

Whether Down can reproduce the heroics which enabled them to emerge from the doldrums last year remains to be seen, but they showed signs that they are building up a bit of steam again when accounting for Leitrim and Antrim over the past two weekends.

Still, beating Leitrim and Antrim was nothing to write home about and, while they won both games convincingly enough, the form they displayed left a bit to be desired, and the consensus is that their rate of improvement since the start of the championship needs to be speeded up significantly if they hope to topple Cork.

Down boss James McCartan acknowledged as much after the win over Antrim, stating that he would have preferred to be facing Cork later on in the season.



Innate swagger

For all that, Down, as was evidenced last year, almost invariably carry an innate swagger once they get to Croke Park, and they will relish the opportunity to turn the tables on the Rebels and achieve the distinction of dethroning the All-Ireland champions for the second season on the trot.

And if they start as well as they did in last year's final, they might well have learned enough from the traumatic experience endured at the business end of their previous championship showdown with Cork to be able to protect a sizeable lead this time.

There is no denying that taking so long to settle into games is a serious worry for Cork at this stage.

They managed to dig themselves out of a deep hole in last year's All-Ireland semi final against Dublin, in the final against Down, and in this season's league decider against the Dubs, but they learned the hard way in the recent Munster final against Kerry that a second half resurgence won't always be enough to compensate for a lethargic first-half performance.

What's going to make it harder to stage a recovery in the event of a tardy start on Saturday is that Cork won't be able to call on the services of injured Nicholas Murphy, who repeatedly produced the goods when sprung from the bench over the course of last year's championship, not least in the final against Down.

Cork will be weakened as well by the absence of cruciate ligament victim Ciaran Sheehan.

Indeed, had Murphy been available against Kerry, and had not Sheehan been forced to exit the fray six minutes into the second half, the outcome of the Munster final might have been different.

With Colm O'Neill also out for the season, Cork's strength-in-depth, which was a key factor in enabling them to reach the summit in 2010, has been severely diminished, and, no doubt, Down will draw a certain amount of encouragement from that, given that they finished just a point adrift of the Rebels last year.



More compelling

But the Munster final defeat will hardly be viewed as a major setback for Cork, and the reality is that they possess far more compelling credentials than Down.

As well as lifting the All-Ireland last year, they retained the National League title this season, clocking up a decisive 3-17 to 0-15 win over Down at Pairc Ui Rinn along the way.

And in 23 championship outings since Conor Counihan took the helm in 2008, they have suffered just four defeats, all of which were incurred at Kerry's hands. Based on developments so far this year, they would appear to be in much better shape than Down at the moment

All things considered, Cork would have to be fancied to get back to winning ways against Down, and, if they can hit the ground running this time, the likelihood is that they will enjoy a much smoother passage than was the case in their previous collision with the Northerners at Croker.

[bcarrier]

The independent.ie preview of Down V Cork 

The other game in Croke Park between Down and Cork will go along the lines of last year's All-Ireland final. I expect Noel O'Leary to be deployed to shadow Martin Clarke again and despite their injuries, the Rebels can pull through against James McCartan's stuttering side.

[PAULD123]

We are being written off which is good, teams prefer to be the underdogs it takes pressure off. But I have to say the critics are not being unfair. On current form Cork deserve to be favourites and there are really no compelling reasons to justify faith in a Down victory. Cork have quality all over the field, and one of the few defences that have the ability to contain our forward line, while possessing in Goulding and O'Connor forwards who can score from anywhere. There are no obvious weaknesses in the Cork team.

So it is all down to the fact that as long as a team competes, works hard and can keep close, anything can happen. Kildare are performing with an average set of players but their attitude and application has lifted them up a level. If Down show a similar approach then it will be possible to beat Cork. Laverty & Mooney are probably faster than anything Cork have. Danny and Benny are genuine All-stars. Marty needs to be on form but if he is then he can pass a ball anywhere he likes.

The defence need to work together and harder than they have done since any day last September. But the weather is good, the ball and field will be dry. We have a good chance. Fingers crossed that we can do it, which would be a surprise but certainly not a shock

[snoopdog]

To be honest we havent done anything to dispell the begrdgers of Brolley et all. and a substantial beating tomorrow night will right off any good done last year as a flash in the pan.
Cork are raging hot favourites for this and we need to take our chances. Goals are required. we idnt get any in last years final when on top and that killed us.
There was too much fannying about in front of the posts in the firast half against Leirtrim and Antrim, this wont do against Cork.
McVeigh needs to alternate his kickouts and all need to all be at the top of their game if down are to have any chance tomorrow evening.

[blanketattack]

In Munster, Cork are a dual county, and hurling is very much the main game for many of their clubs, so there are periods when they find it difficult to compete with Kerry.

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Cork have far more than double the no. of Gaelic Football clubs as Kerry and double the no. of Gaelic Football players even when dual players are discounted, so when do they ever have an excuse no to be able to compete with Kerry?
Cork have more than 80 Junior Football clubs alone compared to just 16 in Kerry.
There might be more All-Ireland winning counties in Ulster but Cork have more All-Irelands than Tyrone, Derry, Donegal and Armagh put together.
We often hear how Kerry (including their 70s team) wouldn't have as many All-Irelands if they were in Ulster, well look at Kerry's results v Ulster teams in the c'ship in the 70s and early 80s:
1970 Kerry 0-23 Derry 0-10
1976 Kerry 5-14 Derry 1-10
1979 Kerry 5-14 Monaghan 0-7
1982 Kerry 3-15 Armagh 1-11
This is what Kerry were doing to the best team in Ulster, do you really think the weaker teams in Ulster would have fared any better?
Kerry would probably have more All-Irelands if they were in Ulster -  they would have probably won Ulster in '83 and would have been well able to handle Dublin in the final as proved in '84 and '85.
As for '97, this is being questioned because Clare, Cavan and Mayo hadn't won All-Irelands in the previous 40 years? So if teams weaker than those e.g. Cork, Down and Offaly had somehow fluked their way through and Kerry had beaten these lesser teams who each had won All-Irelands in the previous 40 years it would be considered a much greater achievement?

[Canalman]

The argument would have more merit imo if Kerry weren't regularly winning the NFL, but they are. In all fairness, the provincial/all ireland win ratio is the best indicator. Kerry's quiet good, teams like Monaghan, Mayo, Cavan, Galway, Armagh (sorry lads!) etc not the best.

Then again, Cork's ratio is poor also.