Feile an Phobail

[RedHand88]

Will folk get suspended from their jobs if caught singing the Billy Boys? I'm not so sure.

From now on yes I think they would.

[Snapchap]

For me Ooh ah up the Ra and the Billy Boys are on the same level.

Yes because as we all know, Celtic Symphony is a song about an imagined genocide too

[general_lee]

The Billy Boys is seen as perfectly acceptable, and to be honest if they want to sing a sectarian Rangers chant eulogising a fascist gang then let them tear away. They were doing it last weekend on the streets of Derry and they'll be doing at the next band parade no doubt.

I think anyone that posts anything sectarian on social media is fair game, these pile ons aren't new either. Has happened quite a lot between Celtic and Rangers fans. People either need to stop being bigots or else do so privately.

[tonto1888]

Will folk get suspended from their jobs if caught singing the Billy Boys? I'm not so sure.

From now on yes I think they would.

they shouldnt

In this case what was the person actually singing?

[Dire Ear]

It wouldn't be too hard for the Wolf to best to by pass that song when they do gigs up here. I remember Iron Maiden bypassing on the song the trooper for a few years, and at a actual gig having to call out some pricks (in his words using a album cover as their Shankill Mural)

The actual song ain't the problem, it has been performed at many, many venues across the north for the last 33 years with not a word said outside of Feile ... the problem is the faux outrage aided and abetted by the biased northern press led by Stephen Nolan.  What is more shocking is how many from a supposed nationalist background on this board who have been swayed by the reporting of that same press.  So you get rid of Celtic Symphony, then what ... Broad Black Brimmer ... Sean South, Come Out Ye Black 'n Tans ... Boys of the Old Brigade ... then when done with the songs, let's move on to renaming GAA clubs across the north?!  The problem ain't the song when performed to 10,000 people in a park in West Belfast, none of whom in attendance took any offence to it ... the problem is the faux outrage from the usual suspects who were not in attendance, and they are best ignored.  Andree Murphy hit the nail on the head in today's Irish News. 

To those who make comparisons between a song written for Celtic FC's 100th Anniversary and performed across the world without issue, and a song being sung in an OO hall, written to mock the murder of a Catholic bride on honeymoon ... catch a grip.

100%

[Main Street]

That is a decent article, some rationality does exist in mainstream nordie media, we should listen to it instead of bellowing opinions from the pulpit.

[tonto1888]

Good article

[Evil Genius]

It's simple and has nothing to do with WT's or any of their songs... if you want a UI then you'll not get it without the soft unionists. Now if you are happy with the way things are then hell yes blast those tunes out and give them what they are looking for, an excuse to stay in the UK.

I've not read this thread properly, nor do I intend to get into this whole, tired and tiresome "whataboutery" of who sang what and where etc.

But I was struck by that one aspect of your otherwise measured and reasonable post(s).

Namely, Unionists don't "need an excuse" for staying in the UK. Rather we've got plenty of our own reasons for same, whether you appreciate them or not.

Rather, if there is to be a UI, then Nationalists need to offer us reasons to join a UI.

Further, in your appeal to "soft Unionists", you don't seem to appreciate that the minute a Unionist - "soft" or otherwise - agrees to a UI, then that it is it, they are no longer a "Unionist" and have automatically abandoned their British identity.

And this last point is a crucial one, which even moderate Nationalists generally seem unable to comprehend. For when they say - sincerely no doubt - that Unionists will be welcome in any UI, they don't realise that without the Union, there can be no Unionists, whether in the 6 northern counties or in the 32 counties as a whole. (Look to the Irish Free State post-1921 for proof of same)

Which gets us back to the need for Nationalists to provide positive, progressive reasons for Unionists to abandon the identity we've been holding on to for hundreds of years.

P.S. I would suggest to anyone on this board who is struggling with the above concepts, that they ask themselves the question: "What would it take* for me to abandon my Nationalist identity and throw my lot in fully with the UK?"

* - Another 800 years, perhaps? 

[johnnycool]

It's simple and has nothing to do with WT's or any of their songs... if you want a UI then you'll not get it without the soft unionists. Now if you are happy with the way things are then hell yes blast those tunes out and give them what they are looking for, an excuse to stay in the UK.

I've not read this thread properly, nor do I intend to get into this whole, tired and tiresome "whataboutery" of who sang what and where etc.

But I was struck by that one aspect of your otherwise measured and reasonable post(s).

Namely, Unionists don't "need an excuse" for staying in the UK. Rather we've got plenty of our own reasons for same, whether you appreciate them or not.

Rather, if there is to be a UI, then Nationalists need to offer us reasons to join a UI.

Further, in your appeal to "soft Unionists", you don't seem to appreciate that the minute a Unionist - "soft" or otherwise - agrees to a UI, then that it is it, they are no longer a "Unionist" and have automatically abandoned their British identity.

And this last point is a crucial one, which even moderate Nationalists generally seem unable to comprehend. For when they say - sincerely no doubt - that Unionists will be welcome in any UI, they don't realise that without the Union, there can be no Unionists, whether in the 6 northern counties or in the 32 counties as a whole. (Look to the Irish Free State post-1921 for proof of same)

Which gets us back to the need for Nationalists to provide positive, progressive reasons for Unionists to abandon the identity we've been holding on to for hundreds of years.

P.S. I would suggest to anyone on this board who is struggling with the above concepts, that they ask themselves the question: "What would it take* for me to abandon my Nationalist identity and throw my lot in fully with the UK?"

* - Another 800 years, perhaps? 

As we're going to find out shortly there is neither a majority of unionists or nationalists, soft or otherwise in NI/6 counties with that trend only going in the one direction based on the age profiles of said groupings.

Unionist's hugging the east coast are oblivious to the growth in the Nationalist population around them.

[screenexile]

Most of EG's post is pretty fair and we're probably mislabelling what will be called "former Unionists".

It is true that there will be a swathe of Unionists who if presented with the right case for a UI may well abandon their Unionist principles but as jc has pointed out the game is to convince the apathetic middle ground who have dropped the orange and green nonsense that a United Ireland is worth it.

Former Unionists need to be accommodated in a New Ireland absolutely and we can't make the mistakes made by Unionists of treating Catholics/Nationalists as second class citizens and less than. It has to start form the position of being a truly inclusive society and in time I think it will release the potential that's been here all along!

[Milltown Row2]

Most of EG's post is pretty fair and we're probably mislabelling what will be called "former Unionists".

It is true that there will be a swathe of Unionists who if presented with the right case for a UI may well abandon their Unionist principles but as jc has pointed out the game is to convince the apathetic middle ground who have dropped the orange and green nonsense that a United Ireland is worth it.

Former Unionists need to be accommodated in a New Ireland absolutely and we can't make the mistakes made by Unionists of treating Catholics/Nationalists as second class citizens and less than. It has to start form the position of being a truly inclusive society and in time I think it will release the potential that's been here all along!

Yes soft unionists is probably wrong, a protestant voter who wouldn't vote for UUP/DUP/TUV is probably best.. I'm a Nationalist which means I want to be in a UI .. how that comes about for me is through the ballot box, that sea of change, regardless johnny of this census will not be brought about by ignoring their views or how the numbers will add up, not all 'nationalists' catholics will vote to lose their current status

[Franko]

Most of EG's post is pretty fair and we're probably mislabelling what will be called "former Unionists".

It is true that there will be a swathe of Unionists who if presented with the right case for a UI may well abandon their Unionist principles but as jc has pointed out the game is to convince the apathetic middle ground who have dropped the orange and green nonsense that a United Ireland is worth it.

Former Unionists need to be accommodated in a New Ireland absolutely and we can't make the mistakes made by Unionists of treating Catholics/Nationalists as second class citizens and less than. It has to start form the position of being a truly inclusive society and in time I think it will release the potential that's been here all along!

He's overselling it.  And by more than a little.

Firstly, the unionists that we'd be talking about are more than likely the Alliance voting type, whose unionist identity, whilst definitely relevant, is well down the pecking order in terms of things they hold dear.

Secondly, to say they'd have to "abandon" their British identity in a UI is nonsense.  There are many nationalists currently living in the UK who have not abandoned anything.  If anything, confidence in their identity has only grown in the past couple of decades.  I'd suggest that any unionist who feels the need to abandon their identity in a hypothetical UI, wasn't that bothered about their identity to start with

And finally, with regard to his assertion that nationalists need to offer "reasons to join a UI" – there is some truth in this.  But with the current behaviour of the DUP over here and the British govt pumping turds into rivers and displaying ever more fascist, inward-looking and corrupt behaviours, the reasons offered to get the fcuk out of this mess don't need to be particularly compelling

[johnnycool]

Most of EG's post is pretty fair and we're probably mislabelling what will be called "former Unionists".

It is true that there will be a swathe of Unionists who if presented with the right case for a UI may well abandon their Unionist principles but as jc has pointed out the game is to convince the apathetic middle ground who have dropped the orange and green nonsense that a United Ireland is worth it.

Former Unionists need to be accommodated in a New Ireland absolutely and we can't make the mistakes made by Unionists of treating Catholics/Nationalists as second class citizens and less than. It has to start form the position of being a truly inclusive society and in time I think it will release the potential that's been here all along!

Yes soft unionists is probably wrong, a protestant voter who wouldn't vote for UUP/DUP/TUV is probably best.. I'm a Nationalist which means I want to be in a UI .. how that comes about for me is through the ballot box, that sea of change, regardless johnny of this census will not be brought about by ignoring their views or how the numbers will add up, not all 'nationalists' catholics will vote to lose their current status

Who mentioned anything about ignoring anyone?

I repeatedly said that a UI will come about by persuading that middle ground that a UI was in their best interests and I've always stated that SF are not the party to do that.

[Milltown Row2]

Just mentioning the census Johnny won't be the bit that'll get us over the line, I'm not say you are ignoring them but people feel this census is or will bring on a UI...

We could get there a lot sooner if there was a decent 'voice' that was able to bring a decent majority to the table..

Realistically it's taken nearly 60 years from the start of the troubles to now, could be another 60 to get over the line

[Evil Genius]

As we're going to find out shortly there is neither a majority of unionists or nationalists, soft or otherwise in NI/6 counties with that trend only going in the one direction based on the age profiles of said groupings.

Unionist's hugging the east coast are oblivious to the growth in the Nationalist population around them.

Ah, I see, you're another of those Nationalists who are now into their second "Century of Wishful Thinking"!

Lets get down to basics. It doesnt matter how you count the two tribes in a census - Prods, Unioniosts, Loyalists etc or RCs, Nats, Republicans etc.

Rather its about two things, how and whether they would vote in a Referendum.

And for the former ("how"), it's not about designation, policies, economics, personalities and tactical voting etc, i.e. the usual things which influence voters in a regular election. Rather, as eg the Scottish or Brexit referenda demonstrated, it's all about Identity.

On which point, whether "Unionists" vote TUV, DUP, UUP or Alliance etc, or (increasingly) don't vote at all normally, all the evidence suggests thay they will turn out solidly in any referendum to preserve their British identity, if only from "clinging to Nurse, for fear of something worse". For remember, Unionists have only to lose once, for it to be forever. So I have no doubt that there will be a big turnout of the 1m-odd "Unionists" in any referendum, and I am equally confident that very few, if any, would consider voting for a UI.

As for the latter ("whether" they vote ), while I'm confident of the Unionist turnout, I'm not nearly so worried about the Nationalist turnout. Now don't get me wrong, when it comes to the secrecy of the voting booth, those Nationalists who do turn out will so0lidly vote for a UI, rather than remain.

But I genuinely believe that a proportion of Nationalists sufficient to lose the vote for a UI simply will not bother to turn out, since the status quo means Nationalists can continue to have their "NI cake" while also eating their "UI cake". That is, if staying in NI, they get to keep their more affordable housing, NHS, government jobs/pensions etc. While thanks to the GFA, they would still have their Irish (and EU) identity etc. (Think eg Ciara Mageean, or any number of "Nationalist" boxers competing in both the Commonwealth Games for NI, and in the Europeans for Ireland)

Which explains why when polled, so many "Nationalists", especially the younger ones, now tend to identify themselves as "Northern Irish", rather than "Irish". (Think eg Rory McIlroy, Michael ONeill or any number of young "Nationalist" soccer players who are quite happy to turn out for NI teams.).

Meaning that even if the new census indicates a "Nationalist" majority, I genuinely don't consider that this poses any real threat to the Union in a referendum and why I would actually call SF's bluff, in their regular, but embarrassingly half-hearted, calls for a border poll.

Of course I don't expect many (any?) on this board to agree with my reasoning - some won't even acknowledge it - but if it were within my gift to call a referendum, I'd say: "Bring it on!"