The same-sex marriage referendum debate

[MoChara]

My mates sister in law is a lesbian but is going out with a pre op transsexual. So you have a girl who likes girls going out with a boy who wants to be a girl (Im pretty sure there is a song there somewhere) , It is mind f**k and i cant get my head around it.

There's a tongue twister (pardon the pun lol) does the Transgender person want to become a lesbian woman as opposed to a hetrosexual male as he is at present?

[deiseach]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I know not everyone is the same. That's not what I'm asking. I don't know any straight men that find masculine looking women attractive, so I'm wondering how a lesbian that is attracted to women can find that look attractive. I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative. I suppose I'm asking a very tough question but it seems a little incongruous.

The human condition maybe.

I'm guessing there's a zoological thing at work. I asked a friend of mine who studied the subject why it was that with some species of animal it was the male who was the looker (e.g. peacocks/hens) while with others it was the female (e.g. humans) and her answer was quite blunt: weakness. Women are hardwired to put on a display because they can't compete using brute strength. With that in mind, there are going to be males of the species who are more, shall we say, flamboyant without necessarily being gay and are drawn to the flamboyance of women.

Everyone feel free to shoot me down over this.

[AZOffaly]

I think, deiseach, you might be making this more complicated than I meant.

Consider Sheila, a lesbian. She is a very feminine lady, dresses, long hair, the works. She likes women, is attracted to them, and is not attracted to men. (i.e. not Bi).

She sees Laura in a bar. Laura is also a lesbian, but feels much more comfortable with a more masculine appearance. She is not Transgender, she likes being a woman, but she likes to look like a man. therefore she is wearing a suit, has close cropped hair, no earrings, short nails.

In my simple view of the world, I can understand how Laura would be attracted to Sheila.

I cannot get to grips with how Sheila would be attracted to Laura.

[deiseach]

I think you are overcomplicating things there. Redheads do not necessarily find other redheads attractive. Why shouldn't a lesbian woman who dresses like every heterosexual male fantasy not find butch women attractive?

[AZOffaly]

Because she looks like a man? If they are not attracted to a man, why are they attracted to a woman that looks like a man?

That's my question

If I said I only liked red heads, why would I be attracted to a red head that wore a blond wig?

By the way, I'm not casting aspersions here or claiming they can't really be lesbian or anything like that!!! I'm just curious from an intellectual point of view of what the trigggers of attraction are? Maybe men are more visual (I've heard that before) and that's why I'm finding this hard to understand.

[deiseach]

Because she looks like a man? If they are not attracted to a man, why are they attracted to a woman that looks like a man?

That's my question

Because she's a woman. Every seen a picture of a drag artist and thought 'she looks hot'?* I bet the attraction faded when you found out the truth.

*This has never happened to me definitely not shut up!

[AZOffaly]

Because she looks like a man? If they are not attracted to a man, why are they attracted to a woman that looks like a man?

That's my question

Because she's a woman. Every seen a picture of a drag artist and thought 'she looks hot'?* I bet the attraction faded when you found out the truth.

*This has never happened to me definitely not shut up!

Exactly, you're saying the same thing as me. If I (a straight man) though a woman was hot, and she turned out to be a man I'd not be interested. So why would a gay man be attracted to a drag artist? What is it about looking like an attractive woman would interest a gay man?

[deiseach]

Exactly, you're saying the same thing as me. If I (a straight man) though a woman was hot, and she turned out to be a man I'd not be interested. So why would a gay man be attracted to a drag artist? What is it about looking like an attractive woman would interest a gay man?

Doesn't that come back to my original point? He's attracted to the peacock.

[screenexile]

Because she looks like a man? If they are not attracted to a man, why are they attracted to a woman that looks like a man?

That's my question

Because she's a woman. Every seen a picture of a drag artist and thought 'she looks hot'?* I bet the attraction faded when you found out the truth.

*This has never happened to me definitely not shut up!

Exactly, you're saying the same thing as me. If I (a straight man) though a woman was hot, and she turned out to be a man I'd not be interested. So why would a gay man be attracted to a drag artist? What is it about looking like an attractive woman would interest a gay man?

Is there not an element of being attracted to the personality in those cases rather than the look. Falling in love with a person as opposed to a man or woman.

Again unless somebody on the board is involved in that kind of relationship I'm not really sure but it would be interesting to get some kind of answer to it.

[ludermor]

My mates sister in law is a lesbian but is going out with a pre op transsexual. So you have a girl who likes girls going out with a boy who wants to be a girl (Im pretty sure there is a song there somewhere) , It is mind f**k and i cant get my head around it.

There's a tongue twister (pardon the pun lol) does the Transgender person want to become a lesbian woman as opposed to a hetrosexual male as he is at present?

Yes the transgender person is in the process of become a woman, not sure what category she will fit into though.

[DuffleKing]

Homophobia is not an irrational condition given the nature of this country's history and the culture that prevails. It is not illegal to feel uncomfortable around or outright not want to be around gay or lesbian people either. The moral argument is another question entirely but people are entitled to their beliefs and feelings so long as they don't act on them to interfere with the rights of others.

[AZOffaly]

Because she looks like a man? If they are not attracted to a man, why are they attracted to a woman that looks like a man?

That's my question

Because she's a woman. Every seen a picture of a drag artist and thought 'she looks hot'?* I bet the attraction faded when you found out the truth.

*This has never happened to me definitely not shut up!

Exactly, you're saying the same thing as me. If I (a straight man) though a woman was hot, and she turned out to be a man I'd not be interested. So why would a gay man be attracted to a drag artist? What is it about looking like an attractive woman would interest a gay man?

Is there not an element of being attracted to the personality in those cases rather than the look. Falling in love with a person as opposed to a man or woman.

Again unless somebody on the board is involved in that kind of relationship I'm not really sure but it would be interesting to get some kind of answer to it.

Yeah, I'm talking about attraction here, as opposed to falling in love with the person. Obviously if they are attracted, and get talking or whatever, then that can happen. But I'm talking about the initial attraction. I don't think there's a huge amount of gay men who actively try to look like women, I think that's more a pantomime kind of thing, like Panti Bliss, but there does seem to be an inordinate amount of lesbian couples where one of the partners, at least, actually looks like a man. Obviously at the end of the day it's still a woman, and the partner knows that and is attracted to that, but I wonder about the attraction to the visual stimuli of a masculine looking woman. Why not be attracted to a man. Or are some lesbian women attracted to men, but only on a superficial level, and for intimacy and a real connection, it needs to be a woman for them?


Anyway, maybe I'll just put it down to C'est la vie and move on.

[Zulu]

Because she looks like a man? If they are not attracted to a man, why are they attracted to a woman that looks like a man?

That's my question

If I said I only liked red heads, why would I be attracted to a red head that wore a blond wig?

By the way, I'm not casting aspersions here or claiming they can't really be lesbian or anything like that!!! I'm just curious from an intellectual point of view of what the trigggers of attraction are? Maybe men are more visual (I've heard that before) and that's why I'm finding this hard to understand.

I've wondered about that myself but I think it's all related to their genetic make up. A person attracted to someone of their own sex would be wired that way and a lesbian woman might have a some elements of her genetic make up that are more like a man's than a woman's. That's why she may act and dress more like a man than a woman and like a heterosexual man she is attracted to women. The same concept with feminine gay men. There are plenty of 'normal' looking gay men and women (i.e. what we would consider straight looking) whose genetic make up means they still find their own gender sexually attractive but don't share the masculine/feminine traits of some other gay people.

Not sure I explained my point particularly well but to answer the question of why a lesbian woman might find a butch woman attractive then I'd say it's as simple as - she is a woman. I'm sure most gay people can appreciate an attractive person of the opposite sex but it just doesn't do anything for them sexually.

I've seen a fair few dogs (the four legged kind) that were gorgeous to look at and some girls that weren't but Fido was never in danger of drunken night of amour, some of the girls were!!

[deiseach]

Homophobia is not an irrational condition given the nature of this country's history and the culture that prevails. It is not illegal to feel uncomfortable around or outright not want to be around gay or lesbian people either. The moral argument is another question entirely but people are entitled to their beliefs and feelings so long as they don't act on them to interfere with the rights of others.

Good post. I leave it to others to decide whether I am a homophobe but I know people who voted No and no amount of sly insinuations on the part of others about the need to conform will convince me those people have ever treated homosexuals any way other than the way they would expect to be treated themselves.

[topcuppla]

The gay rights activists on here deiseach won't be happy, if you vote no you need to submit a thesis to LCohen as to why you voted no, let him dissect it and then conclude you are homophobic.