Derry v Kerry AISF Sunday 16th July 4pm

[JoG2]

It's not as if good players we let go, Jack Doherty was very badly handled, and I Think with the right chat with E, bradley, would brought him bck in late to. Dan Higgins, also should be in the panel, he probably left tail end of last tear.

Who would Jack replace for Sunday?

Jack Doherty, on his form for Glen last year, is a better footballer than Niall loughlin, Niall toner or Benny Heron

But it takes more than being a better footballer than someone else these days, county is a different beast

Exactly - and generally you have to be in Ireland.

90% of footballers are the same - robots.

Up and down the field. Keep the ball.  Pass it sideways.

They have no meaningful impact on the game.  That goes for all counties.

There are definitely workmanlike / athletic players on a team who perform certain basics well, but your assertion above is beyond ridiculous

It's true.  Yo've admitted to it. Players who are workmanlike, good basics and recycle the ball sideways and backways.

This is the majority of players on any team now - whether that be county or club.

Modern inter county football is a lifestyle, a total and utter commitment to the cause. This sometimes will leave more skillful players with their clubs due to the commitment involved. Derry has a couple of players, while maybe not the best in the county have the heart and work rate to work well within the current system.
You've said 90% are the same, robots..that (rounded down) is 13 players.
Name me the 13 robots in the Derry and Kerry lineups for Sunday...you won't as you can't. A lazy, tabloid, hurler in the ditch comment as you'll read online

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

Judging by the current media round there's no point in turning up everyone wants a Kerry Dublin final to "save football"

We might as well just stop playing the game altogether and let Kerry and Dublin play every game between themselves!

Some of the utterly uninformed commentary is laughable. I listened to colm Boyle and Darren O'Sullivan on newstalk, Boyle was awful, throwing out line after line of nonsense showing that his only exposure to Derry was cos he got in early for the mayo v Dublin game and watched a few mins.
A lot of commentary has been the same, ultra defensive, play keep ball for minutes on end, slow methodical attacks which can't work (no recognition that those attacks were v cork, Galway and Donegal in games where all 30 players were in the opponent's half), not capable of attacking any other way, very limited panel, no supporting cast up front unlike Kerry (presume this is because seanie has played a little better the last 2 games).

I don't know, but I've seen the majority of Derry games the last few years and most of the shite being written isn't reflective of what we've been watching. Someone was questioning whether Derry can score goals for example - I suspect they're amongst the most clinical and goal minded teams around?

Really looking forward to this one and it will really tell us where we're at, Kerry can be vulnerable we've seen that all year, obviously a very good team, but Clifford aside is there much in it man for man?

They were really up for Tyrone, it might be difficult to get to that same level against a team they're expected to beat comfortably, better to save themselves for the dream final, it could be like that 2015 classic all over again!

I'm taking Glass to give us a masterclass tomorrow, defensively and attacking wise, redeem himself for last year's semi and nail on his footballer of the year credentials. Easy!!

You've a point there that I would agree with totally. And Darran O'Sullivan wouldn't have watched Derry v Cork I'd be fairly sure either. It's typical of the manure that largely passes for "journalism" on Football at the moment. Even the Football pod lads, who are good football men, spoof it a bit at times from abroad having clearly not really watched games.

I know it's behind a paywall but the Irish Examiner is really good on football, way ahead of most. Paul Rouse, Fitzmaurice (boring though he can be), James Horan, Malachy O'Rourke, Paddy Kelly and some other good, genuine football people. Who actually watch and are involved in football.

Cahair O'Kane in the irish news is one that has to be mentioned aswell in fairness. Regular quality output.

Most of the rest I wouldn't get worked up about.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/07/15/derry-scaled-heights-in-1993-when-savvy-boss-eamonn-coleman-made-the-difference/

Derry scaled heights in 1993 when savvy boss Eamonn Coleman made the difference
'We had been rudderless. He was instrumental in getting the team to a point where they had the confidence'
Expand

All-Ireland final 1993: Derry's Enda Gormley celebrates victory over Cork at Croke Park. File photograph: James Meehan/Inpho
Seán Moran
Sat Jul 15 2023 - 05:00
The last time Derry won an All-Ireland semi-final, it wasn't going to plan at half-time. Thirty years ago, having got out of Ulster at a time of plenty for the province, they were in many people's minds the likely latest champions from the North.
In these pages, football analyst John O'Keeffe was clear about the probable outcome. "Derry may take a few minutes to settle but I feel they have the necessary desire and determination at this stage of their development to reach the final."
In Croke Park, however, it was taking longer than a few minutes and they left the pitch at the break trailing by five, 0-4 to 0-9. Dublin had opened impressively and taken their scores. For a Derry pundit on the terrace, there was no doubt what was happening.
"The dressing rooms were in the corner between the Hogan and the Canal End at that time," remembers Enda Gormley, who would finish the day as his team's top scorer. "Our fans were at that end and I remember one so-called supporter shouting, 'typical Derry — shitting the nest again'."

Yet many of the players shared O'Keeffe's confidence in the team. All year, according to Damian Cassidy, wing forward and future county manager, he had believed strongly that Derry would win the All-Ireland.
In the aftermath, future Derry pundit Joe Brolly gave a command performance for the media in the dressing room.
Learn more


Vinny Murphy of Dublin tries to hold off the challenge from Henry Downey of Derry during the All-Ireland semi-final of 1993. File photograph: Inpho
"I had insane confidence out there," he assured them, "even when we were being stuffed I thought we'd win the match. Dublin just seemed to be vulnerable. They had that old thing that they had against Meath, just something vulnerable about them."
The reminiscence of what happened at half-time is brisk. Coach Mickey Moran made a brief speech, challenging the players were they going to be the latest Derry team to go home from Croke Park after one match. But they themselves knew what needed to be done.
"There was probably a two- or three-point breeze," says Gormley. "But we knew we hadn't been good. We hadn't started."
The second half played out with Derry catching Dublin and Johnny McGurk kicking the winning point, 0-15 to 0-14.
There's no consensus that beating Dublin was the major breakthrough that gave Derry the confidence to progress. That team had served a hard apprenticeship in the previous two years, losing in Ulster to Down after a replay and in 1992 to Donegal in the provincial final. Both counties won the All-Ireland.
Cassidy acknowledges that the semi-finals were the stage at which the music generally died for the county.
"A number of teams in the past had come down and got broken at that stage so that aspect had to be tackled — getting over that — but I also think that getting over Donegal was massively important for us. The difference was that in the previous two years we had beaten Down and Donegal. They were All-Ireland champions. Dublin were not.
"The importance of the match was that we were five down at half-time and came out and turned it around in a full Croke Park that Dublin would have been more used to than we were."

Ulster final: Derry vs Donegal in 1993 where Manus Boyle of Donegal is surrounded by opposition players. File photograph: Inpho
The missing ingredient for Derry was the arrival home from London in 1990 of the late Eamonn Coleman, for whom "feisty" was too anaemic a description. His scolding persona was leavened with a twinkle of mischief. After the first 1993 championship match against favourites Down in Newry had ended in a big win for Derry, he deadpanned the reporters.
"Youse boys are no tipsters."
Coleman wasn't just a vaudevillian turn outside dressing rooms. He had walked the walk, bringing a minor All-Ireland back to the county in 1983. In 1992, Derry won the NFL and previously he had piloted University of Ulster at Jordanstown (UUJ) to their first Sigerson Cups in 1986 and 1987.
Gormley was on both of those UUJ teams. He remembers being struck by Coleman's implacable views on what would be good enough for Derry. How had the manager affected the county team?
"Unbelievably. It wouldn't have happened without him. I remember the night before a Sigerson final, we were discussing the Derry team and naming players. I came up with someone and Eamonn said, 'no, he'd never cut the mustard in Croke Park — too slow'. I said sure we have to win Ulster first but his attitude was if a player wasn't good enough to win an All-Ireland, he wasn't good enough. I was struck by that because for me Ulster teams never came into the reckoning for All-Irelands. Eamonn's ambitions were different."
After two years of coming close, Derry needed something different, according to Cassidy, a member of Coleman's All-Ireland winning minors.
"We were still not playing the football that was good enough to win an All-Ireland. After we lost a league quarter-final in '93 to Donegal, there was a team meeting in Ballymaguigan.

Derry manager Eamonn Coleman looks on as his side play Tyrone in the league final of 1992. File photograph: Inpho
"The outcome of that was we decided we needed to develop our game. We had to add a possession-based, running game.
"Before we had used very much a kicking game. That meeting and the subsequent coaching changed the options. I'm not entirely happy with calling it a 'possession game' because of the modern implications. It was more a support game, running off the shoulder."
He concurs with Gormley on the impact of the manager.
"There was no getting away from how important he was. We had been rudderless. Eamonn had a strong relationship with quite a few players on that panel due to his work with minors and under-21s. He was instrumental in getting the team to a point where they had the confidence."
After the Dublin match, Coleman addressed the media. "I don't think I should talk to ye. You've been getting it wrong since Newry. I've been saying for 12 months we're as good a team as any in Ireland. Now we have proved it. We're in an All-Ireland final."
Four weeks later, they beat Cork and no team in Ireland was as good.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/22/dunloy-eye-all-ireland-glory-after-decades-of-slipping-and-climbing/ 

"In the All-Irelands we probably didn't learn from our semi-finals. The final is a completely different game. If there was a lesson learned, that was it. Semi-finals mean f**k-all."

[seafoid]

Judging by the current media round there's no point in turning up everyone wants a Kerry Dublin final to "save football"

We might as well just stop playing the game altogether and let Kerry and Dublin play every game between themselves!

Some of the utterly uninformed commentary is laughable. I listened to colm Boyle and Darren O'Sullivan on newstalk, Boyle was awful, throwing out line after line of nonsense showing that his only exposure to Derry was cos he got in early for the mayo v Dublin game and watched a few mins.
A lot of commentary has been the same, ultra defensive, play keep ball for minutes on end, slow methodical attacks which can't work (no recognition that those attacks were v cork, Galway and Donegal in games where all 30 players were in the opponent's half), not capable of attacking any other way, very limited panel, no supporting cast up front unlike Kerry (presume this is because seanie has played a little better the last 2 games).

I don't know, but I've seen the majority of Derry games the last few years and most of the shite being written isn't reflective of what we've been watching. Someone was questioning whether Derry can score goals for example - I suspect they're amongst the most clinical and goal minded teams around?

Really looking forward to this one and it will really tell us where we're at, Kerry can be vulnerable we've seen that all year, obviously a very good team, but Clifford aside is there much in it man for man?

They were really up for Tyrone, it might be difficult to get to that same level against a team they're expected to beat comfortably, better to save themselves for the dream final, it could be like that 2015 classic all over again!

I'm taking Glass to give us a masterclass tomorrow, defensively and attacking wise, redeem himself for last year's semi and nail on his footballer of the year credentials. Easy!!

You've a point there that I would agree with totally. And Darran O'Sullivan wouldn't have watched Derry v Cork I'd be fairly sure either. It's typical of the manure that largely passes for "journalism" on Football at the moment. Even the Football pod lads, who are good football men, spoof it a bit at times from abroad having clearly not really watched games.

I know it's behind a paywall but the Irish Examiner is really good on football, way ahead of most. Paul Rouse, Fitzmaurice (boring though he can be), James Horan, Malachy O'Rourke, Paddy Kelly and some other good, genuine football people. Who actually watch and are involved in football.

Cahair O'Kane in the irish news is one that has to be mentioned aswell in fairness. Regular quality output.

Most of the rest I wouldn't get worked up about.

The Football pod is generally good as is Anthony Moyles. Football coverage on OTB is good. In Ulster Declan Bogue is excellent.
Maurice Brosnan is good too.

[Silver hill]

A county player used to really stand out in club football primarily because of his skill level.that's no longer the case. Skill levels can be moderate to good but the absolute necessity now is athleticism and fitness. Most of the teams at the top level are at the same general level of fitness and conditioning (Derry possibly slightly ahead in recent years due to the amount of training they did during covid).
We have 5 or 6 game changers maximum - clucky, Mckindless, glass, Rodgers Mcguigan and possibly Cassidy) mcfaul too but not on this years form so far.
The rest are domestics, workers.
Kerry and Dublin simply have more game changers laced throughout their team and squad.
That's essentially the difference I think. We're just a wee bit short on quantity when it comes to last 4.

[JoG2]

A county player used to really stand out in club football primarily because of his skill level.that's no longer the case. Skill levels can be moderate to good but the absolute necessity now is athleticism and fitness. Most of the teams at the top level are at the same general level of fitness and conditioning (Derry possibly slightly ahead in recent years due to the amount of training they did during covid).
We have 5 or 6 game changers maximum - clucky, Mckindless, glass, Rodgers Mcguigan and possibly Cassidy) mcfaul too but not on this years form so far.
The rest are domestics, workers.
Kerry and Dublin simply have more game changers laced throughout their team and squad.
That's essentially the difference I think. We're just a wee bit short on quantity when it comes to last 4.

  .. When did the Covid lockdown finish and what kind of strength & conditioning people do other counties have that they can't catch up with the 7 day a week Covid Lockdown breakers??!
You can add Ethan into the game changers and how many counties would have a better back 6? Add in a healthy spread of scorers across our half back / half forward lines, I think we're doing rightly.

[LC]

A county player used to really stand out in club football primarily because of his skill level.that's no longer the case. Skill levels can be moderate to good but the absolute necessity now is athleticism and fitness. Most of the teams at the top level are at the same general level of fitness and conditioning (Derry possibly slightly ahead in recent years due to the amount of training they did during covid).
We have 5 or 6 game changers maximum - clucky, Mckindless, glass, Rodgers Mcguigan and possibly Cassidy) mcfaul too but not on this years form so far.
The rest are domestics, workers.
Kerry and Dublin simply have more game changers laced throughout their team and squad.
That's essentially the difference I think. We're just a wee bit short on quantity when it comes to last 4.

Against Mayo Dublin were able to bring Jack McCaffrey and Ciaran Kilkenny off the bench who are absolute game changers....

[Silver hill]

A county player used to really stand out in club football primarily because of his skill level.that's no longer the case. Skill levels can be moderate to good but the absolute necessity now is athleticism and fitness. Most of the teams at the top level are at the same general level of fitness and conditioning (Derry possibly slightly ahead in recent years due to the amount of training they did during covid).
We have 5 or 6 game changers maximum - clucky, Mckindless, glass, Rodgers Mcguigan and possibly Cassidy) mcfaul too but not on this years form so far.
The rest are domestics, workers.
Kerry and Dublin simply have more game changers laced throughout their team and squad.
That's essentially the difference I think. We're just a wee bit short on quantity when it comes to last 4.

  .. When did the Covid lockdown finish and what kind of strength & conditioning people do other counties have that they can't catch up with the 7 day a week Covid Lockdown breakers??!
You can add Ethan into the game changers and how many counties would have a better back 6? Add in a healthy spread of scorers across our half back / half forward lines, I think we're doing rightly.

Derry definitely stole a march on everyone else during lockdown and then for first year after that when they did a manic amount of fitness work (sometimes twice a day on a Saturday or Sunday). That has calmed this year but there's probably not a fitter team out there at the minute.
Agree re Ethan but he's yet to really catch fire this year. Hopefully tomorrow!

[HiMucker]

Judging by the current media round there's no point in turning up everyone wants a Kerry Dublin final to "save football"

We might as well just stop playing the game altogether and let Kerry and Dublin play every game between themselves!

Some of the utterly uninformed commentary is laughable. I listened to colm Boyle and Darren O'Sullivan on newstalk, Boyle was awful, throwing out line after line of nonsense showing that his only exposure to Derry was cos he got in early for the mayo v Dublin game and watched a few mins.
A lot of commentary has been the same, ultra defensive, play keep ball for minutes on end, slow methodical attacks which can't work (no recognition that those attacks were v cork, Galway and Donegal in games where all 30 players were in the opponent's half), not capable of attacking any other way, very limited panel, no supporting cast up front unlike Kerry (presume this is because seanie has played a little better the last 2 games).

I don't know, but I've seen the majority of Derry games the last few years and most of the shite being written isn't reflective of what we've been watching. Someone was questioning whether Derry can score goals for example - I suspect they're amongst the most clinical and goal minded teams around?

Really looking forward to this one and it will really tell us where we're at, Kerry can be vulnerable we've seen that all year, obviously a very good team, but Clifford aside is there much in it man for man?

They were really up for Tyrone, it might be difficult to get to that same level against a team they're expected to beat comfortably, better to save themselves for the dream final, it could be like that 2015 classic all over again!

I'm taking Glass to give us a masterclass tomorrow, defensively and attacking wise, redeem himself for last year's semi and nail on his footballer of the year credentials. Easy!!

this +1

[clarshack]

The Kerry midfield duo were cleaned out by the Steelstown midfield not that long ago. Conor Glass should be dominating tomorrow.

[Wildweasel74]

Weren't cleaned out, Steelstown had the sense to play round them

[HiMucker]

Both our midfielders got the better of Barry and oconnor on the kick outs.
Midfield is definitely somewhere we have an advantage on for tomorrow. Half back line as well, but need to contain paudie Clifford. I think our hf line should win that battle as well. If we dominate that middle 8 it will go a long way to nullifying the Kerry forward threat.

[restorepride]

A county player used to really stand out in club football primarily because of his skill level.that's no longer the case. Skill levels can be moderate to good but the absolute necessity now is athleticism and fitness. Most of the teams at the top level are at the same general level of fitness and conditioning (Derry possibly slightly ahead in recent years due to the amount of training they did during covid).
We have 5 or 6 game changers maximum - clucky, Mckindless, glass, Rodgers Mcguigan and possibly Cassidy) mcfaul too but not on this years form so far.
The rest are domestics, workers.
Kerry and Dublin simply have more game changers laced throughout their team and squad.
That's essentially the difference I think. We're just a wee bit short on quantity when it comes to last 4.

  .. When did the Covid lockdown finish and what kind of strength & conditioning people do other counties have that they can't catch up with the 7 day a week Covid Lockdown breakers??!
You can add Ethan into the game changers and how many counties would have a better back 6? Add in a healthy spread of scorers across our half back / half forward lines, I think we're doing rightly.

Derry definitely stole a march on everyone else during lockdown and then for first year after that when they did a manic amount of fitness work (sometimes twice a day on a Saturday or Sunday). That has calmed this year but there's probably not a fitter team out there at the minute.
Agree re Ethan but he's yet to really catch fire this year. Hopefully tomorrow!

Could do with a big game from Ethan tomorrow.  Back to where we want to be and hopefully will give an improved performance.  Will need a couple of goals for a win with a clean sheet at the other end.  Doire abú!!

[Walter Cronc]

Any idea of expected attendance? 40-50k?