Donegal (2011-2014) v Tyrone (2003-2008) v Armagh (1999-2006)

[Mike Sheehy]

Interesting debate going on in another thread which I think merits a discussion of its own....

However if Donegal win the All-Ireland they will more than likely not get back to near the same levels as 2012 or 2014 next year given that the phenomenal physical and mental demands required to make their system work at the highest level. As no other team can currently do what Donegal do, it's likely that Dublin will once again win the All-Ireland in 2015 if they are on anything like the same form.

Tyrone's defensive system regularly bamboozled Kerry in the 2000s but Tyrone could never sustain that over successive years, and they were a more talented team than Donegal. Kerry's outrageous pure talent always allowed them back in for more All-Irelands. It's very likely that'll be the case with Dublin (although Kerry also had more pure talent than this Dublin team) as they are comfortably the most talented group of players around now.

It was not just hungry and injuries that prevented Tyrone winning back to back titles. There were many other reasons. Such as the  tragedies the panel had to deal with, Armargh being at a similar standard, not be able to build up slowly and only peak for the provincial final to enter the last 8, unlike other counties could do.

It wasn't hungry or injuries that prevent Dublin winning a back to back this year, it was a mixture of not taking goal chances when it mattered, complacency, and no plan b. That is no guarantee that they would have beat Donegal and Kerry if  they had addressed these issues.

Armagh weren't a factor in Tyrone not being the same force in 2004, 2006, 2007 or 2009, as Tyrone didn't play them in 2004, 2006 or 2007, and Tyrone beat them in 2009 when Armagh were in serious decline. Injuries and other things aside, Tyrone were way off the pace of the their All-Ireland wins in each of those years, and none of the teams that beat them went on to win the All-Ireland.

Donegal clearly have the best manager of the three teams mentioned. Tyrone introduced the blanket defence and Armagh brought the physical aspect to a new level.

Who are/were the best overall ? I think Donegal edge it because they have evolved from the primitive Ulster tactic of simply stopping the other team playing and are now a more positive team than the other two. They also have the best player in Michael Murphy and a better midfield (Tyrone didn't have a midfield in the conventional sense..or in any sense)

I'm struggling to think of any Armagh or Tyrone players that would make the current Donegal team ? Maybe the goalkeeping position is up for debate ? What do ye think ?

[orange]

Seriously?! If you take Murphy & Lacey out of the donegal team you are left with an average group. None of the rest would have got on tyrone teams esp 05 & 08. A few others ie mcglynn, eamon mcgee, mchugh would get on armaghs 02 - 05 teams! Mcguinness is getting the very best out of what he has, if not overachieving!!

[Mike Sheehy]

Seriously?! If you take Murphy & Lacey out of the donegal team you are left with an average group. None of the rest would have got on tyrone teams esp 05 & 08. A few others ie mcglynn, eamon mcgee, mchugh would get on armaghs 02 - 05 teams! Mcguinness is getting the very best out of what he has, if not overachieving!!

I'm dead serious.

Look, I know you are quite new to the board and I respect your opinion but how you think that the likes of Ryan McHugh or Colm McFadden would not get on that Tyrone team is beyond me.

I agree with you that mcglynn, eamon mcgee, McHugh would walk onto the Armagh team but I think McFadden is also a better player than Clarke or MConville...would you not agree ?

[theticklemister]

Mayo 2012-2014

[StephenC]

I love it Mike. You're on a rampage! Don't burn yourself out though. There's the guts of 3 weeks left, so make sure you have some other "put-the-focus-on-Donegal-rather-than-Kerry" stuff to wheel out. I recommend ....
- Donegal 2014 vs Donegal 1992?
- Are the McHugh's one of the "great" GAA families?
- Could Jim manage Celtic and Donegal at the same time?

Thrown in a bit of a Kerry injury crisis about a week out, and then a big row in the Kerry camp on the Thursday before. And then bob's your uncle ... another Sam for Kerry. Simples!

[From the Bunker]

Derry

Mayo 2012-2014

Are you trying to claim Mayo as an Ulster team now?

[Mike Sheehy]

I love it Mike. You're on a rampage! Don't burn yourself out though. There's the guts of 3 weeks left, so make sure you have some other "put-the-focus-on-Donegal-rather-than-Kerry" stuff to wheel out. I recommend ....
- Donegal 2014 vs Donegal 1992?
- Are the McHugh's one of the "great" GAA families?
- Could Jim manage Celtic and Donegal at the same time?

Thrown in a bit of a Kerry injury crisis about a week out, and then a big row in the Kerry camp on the Thursday before. And then bob's your uncle ... another Sam for Kerry. Simples!

I'm genuinely hurt by your insinuations.

I am merely trying to establish this Donegal teams place on the Ulster Pantheon. If you think they cannot stack up against Tyrone or Armagh just say so 

[StephenC]

I love it Mike. You're on a rampage! Don't burn yourself out though. There's the guts of 3 weeks left, so make sure you have some other "put-the-focus-on-Donegal-rather-than-Kerry" stuff to wheel out. I recommend ....
- Donegal 2014 vs Donegal 1992?
- Are the McHugh's one of the "great" GAA families?
- Could Jim manage Celtic and Donegal at the same time?

Thrown in a bit of a Kerry injury crisis about a week out, and then a big row in the Kerry camp on the Thursday before. And then bob's your uncle ... another Sam for Kerry. Simples!

I'm genuinely hurt by your insinuations.

I am merely trying to establish this Donegal teams place on the Ulster Pantheon. If you think they cannot stack up against Tyrone or Armagh just say so 

Oh and don't forget the Gooch. You'll get some good mileage out of Kerry being so desperate that they are considering starting him. You can buy me a consolation pint after the game for all this good material.

[BennyHarp]

I love it Mike. You're on a rampage! Don't burn yourself out though. There's the guts of 3 weeks left, so make sure you have some other "put-the-focus-on-Donegal-rather-than-Kerry" stuff to wheel out. I recommend ....
- Donegal 2014 vs Donegal 1992?
- Are the McHugh's one of the "great" GAA families?
- Could Jim manage Celtic and Donegal at the same time?

Thrown in a bit of a Kerry injury crisis about a week out, and then a big row in the Kerry camp on the Thursday before. And then bob's your uncle ... another Sam for Kerry. Simples!

I'm genuinely hurt by your insinuations.

I am merely trying to establish this Donegal teams place on the Ulster Pantheon. If you think they cannot stack up against Tyrone or Armagh just say so 

Do you think the current Dublin team is better than the Kerry team of 2003 - 2009? I think a lot of the praise heaped on Donegal is based on them beating this Dublin team (and rightly so!). But remember, they haven't won their second all Ireland - yet! Tyrone consistently beat that great Kerry team, possibly stopping them winning six, even seven in a row. So do you think Donegal beating Dublin in a one off game makes them a better team than Tyrone who beat the great Kerry team 3 times. So the question really is - how do you rate that Kerry team against the current Dublin team?

[Mike Sheehy]

I love it Mike. You're on a rampage! Don't burn yourself out though. There's the guts of 3 weeks left, so make sure you have some other "put-the-focus-on-Donegal-rather-than-Kerry" stuff to wheel out. I recommend ....
- Donegal 2014 vs Donegal 1992?
- Are the McHugh's one of the "great" GAA families?
- Could Jim manage Celtic and Donegal at the same time?

Thrown in a bit of a Kerry injury crisis about a week out, and then a big row in the Kerry camp on the Thursday before. And then bob's your uncle ... another Sam for Kerry. Simples!

I'm genuinely hurt by your insinuations.

I am merely trying to establish this Donegal teams place on the Ulster Pantheon. If you think they cannot stack up against Tyrone or Armagh just say so 

Do you think the current Dublin team is better than the Kerry team of 2003 - 2009? I think a lot of the praise heaped on Donegal is based on them beating this Dublin team (and rightly so!). But remember, they haven't won their second all Ireland - yet! Tyrone consistently beat that great Kerry team, possibly stopping them winning six, even seven in a row. So do you think Donegal beating Dublin in a one off game makes them a better team than Tyrone who beat the great Kerry team 3 times. So the question really is - how do you rate that Kerry team against the current Dublin team?

Jesus Christ...even ye're questions are like a packed defence....I don't think I can find away through that maze of inquiry.

Anyway, to answer your question(I think) , yes Donegal are better because they are playing in an era where teams like Dublin and Kerry are more prepared for the "system" , thereby it is a more equal contest in the sense that the relative talents of the two teams can be pitted against each other on a more equal basis. Its not a fair fight if you, essentially, mug your opponent.

For that reason I would consider Donegal to be a superior team to Tyrone and Armagh because they be beat both Kerry (2012) and Dublin (2013)when both sides knew what to expect and had sufficient time to adapt. You have to tip your hat to them for that.

[thewobbler]

It would easy to get dragged into all sorts on a thread like this.


For what it's worth, the following players would make the core of the team. Everyone else is available for selection.

1. Durcan
2.
3.
4. Lacey
5.
6. McGeeney
7. Gormley
8. McGrane
9. Cavanagh
10. Dooher
11. McGuigan
12. McConville
13. Canavan
14. Murphy
15. McDonnell

Which means no place for Stevie O'Neill, let alone McFadden.

I'd think Jordan, McMenamin, Enda McNulty, McGlynn and Aaron Kernan would be in contention for the missing places. There's no natural fullback among them though apart from Bellew and McGee, so McGee might get in.

[Mike Sheehy]

I don't think Cavanagh and McGrane would have competed against the Donegal midfield the last day.For a start there was a lot of conventional midfield work to be done and Cavanagh is not a fielder of the ball by any means. McGrane was also very suspect against anybody that matched him physically as was evidenced by Dara O'Se swatting him aside in the quarter final game.

[Syferus]

Micky Harte or Jimmy? Probably matters more than the team picked.

[BennyHarp]

I love it Mike. You're on a rampage! Don't burn yourself out though. There's the guts of 3 weeks left, so make sure you have some other "put-the-focus-on-Donegal-rather-than-Kerry" stuff to wheel out. I recommend ....
- Donegal 2014 vs Donegal 1992?
- Are the McHugh's one of the "great" GAA families?
- Could Jim manage Celtic and Donegal at the same time?

Thrown in a bit of a Kerry injury crisis about a week out, and then a big row in the Kerry camp on the Thursday before. And then bob's your uncle ... another Sam for Kerry. Simples!

I'm genuinely hurt by your insinuations.

I am merely trying to establish this Donegal teams place on the Ulster Pantheon. If you think they cannot stack up against Tyrone or Armagh just say so 

Do you think the current Dublin team is better than the Kerry team of 2003 - 2009? I think a lot of the praise heaped on Donegal is based on them beating this Dublin team (and rightly so!). But remember, they haven't won their second all Ireland - yet! Tyrone consistently beat that great Kerry team, possibly stopping them winning six, even seven in a row. So do you think Donegal beating Dublin in a one off game makes them a better team than Tyrone who beat the great Kerry team 3 times. So the question really is - how do you rate that Kerry team against the current Dublin team?

Jesus Christ...even ye're questions are like a packed defence....I don't think I can find away through that maze of inquiry.

Anyway, to answer your question(I think) , yes Donegal are better because they are playing in an era where teams like Dublin and Kerry are more prepared for the "system" , thereby it is a more equal contest in the sense that the relative talents of the two teams can be pitted against each other on a more equal basis. Its not a fair fight if you, essentially, mug your opponent.

For that reason I would consider Donegal to be a superior team to Tyrone and Armagh because they be beat both Kerry (2012) and Dublin (2013)when both sides knew what to expect and had sufficient time to adapt. You have to tip your hat to them for that.

Actually, I agree, reading back through my last few lines is a bit too much like hard work but I think you got my point. However, I find it hard to believe that by 2008, Kerry still felt they were mugged by Tyrone 5 years after they were first mugged in 2003. Had they still not worked it out by then? Even by your own standards Mike, that is a most pathetic argument.

I also asked the question, is this current Dublin team better than the Kerry team of 2003-2009? Donegal seem to be getting a lot of praise for beating Dublin, yet Tyrone's achievements in beating Kerry are placed below this in your reckoning.

[Farrandeelin]

We all know Armagh never lost to Mayo during those years...