The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[Pangurban]

Stop this undemocratic power grab, vote early and vote often, vote No NO No

[Tankie]

Well thats about it, all i can ask is:

Are you really gonna take economic advice from Sinn Fein ahead of the parties that have built our success?

Vote Yes

[Zapatista]

Well thats about it, all i can ask is:

Are you really gonna take economic advice from Sinn Fein ahead of the parties that have built our success?

Vote Yes

If your only reason for supporting the Lisbon treaty (which is a document that will determine the rest of our lives, our children's lives, our grandchildren lives and the lives of billions around the world) is to not take advice economic advice from SF, I really fear for the future.

Are you really going to take advice from the armament industry, unelected bureaucrats and Bertie (the Apprentice) Ahern. Remember, there is No plan B if we vote Yes. There is no turning back if we vote Yes. Will we willingly hand more power to the EU through a document designed to be incomprehensible. We will sign the Irish people (and the European People) up to more Military Capability more Competition and less say in how it is used. Will we create another world super power which can amend the field of work we have allowed it, by itself? Or will we create an unaccountable body of powerful people to act in their own interest and the interest of their partners in control of the movement of people, product and capital?

This is voting day.
The poll will close at 10pm tonight. If you have already cast your vote on the poll it can still be changed.

For those of you who have decided to vote No, I beg you to stick to your decision. A much more educated decision was made before today. Please do not change your mind with a decision made today. Please do not fall victim to the fear that will come at the time of casting your vote. If in doubt vote No. There is no come back on a Yes vote. All that is in the Lisbon treaty will be legal and will be implemented if we vote yes. There will be No second chance. Vote No to lisbon and we can get the wrongs righted. Vote No to Lisbon for your voice to be heard the loudest.

[stevo-08]

Are you really going to take advice from the armament industry, unelected bureaucrats and Bertie (the Apprentice) Ahern. Remember, there is No plan B if we vote Yes. There is no turning back if we vote Yes. Will we willingly hand more power to the EU through a document designed to be incomprehensible. We will sign the Irish people (and the European People) up to more Military Capability more Competition and less say in how it is used. Will we create another world super power which can amend the field of work we have allowed it, by itself? Or will we create an unaccountable body of powerful people to act in their own interest and the interest of their partners in control of the movement of people, product and capital?

That about sums it up for me.

Im voting No and I dont buy the "No Plan B" scaremongering for one second. If we vote No, and everything stays the same, then fine. If we vote No, and they go back and rengotiate, and for some reason a worse deal is put on the table - well guess what, we can vote No again.

[magpie seanie]

If you don't see a compelling argument to change our Constitution (one that has served us fairly well since the foundation of the State) then you really must vote no. Our Constitution is too precious to alter unless you're sure its an improvement. Vote NO.

[Hound]

No turning back if we vote Yes?

The Lisbon treaty sets out the parameters of how a country can leave the EU if they don't think its working for them. So, basically, we can leave at any time.

The treaty as proposed is very fair to Ireland. It does not disadvantage us at all in comparison to other countries. It will help the EU run more effectively and more efficienty. It will not affect our tax status, our neutraility or abortion! The mainsteam political parties are in favour of it, almost all the unions are in favour of it, employers are in favour of it, the extreme left and rigt wing loo-las are against it. Vote yes for Europe.

If we vote no, there will be no substantive change to the treaty, because we already got a fair deal. What will happen is there will be specific clauses put in saying that Ireland has a veto on tax and can keep the 12.5% rate, that Ireland (along with the other neutral EU countries) can remain neutral, and that Ireland cannot be forced to perform abortions in Irish hospitals - just so the lies from the No side will be seen more clearly as lies. And we'll spend a lot more taxpayers money preparing for and holding another referendum.

I have to hand it to the No campaign in how all their lies and scare-mongering have persuaded so many people to vote No. Also have to say how poorly the politicians have done in getting their message across. I saw a debate between a SF treasurer (I think), a Libertas bloke, Gay Mitchell and some woman from a university (in favour), and the person who did the most for the No campaign was the idiot Mitchell.

[Billys Boots]

I'll be voting 'Yes' - we've been in the EU (in its various forms) for 35 years and it has been the best thing that has happened this country; socially and economically.  It has single-handedly dragged 1970s Ireland into the modern world - the 'No' camp have been making the same wrong arguments since then, and nothing has changed on either side.  It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that, administratively, the EU needed to change to allow for its expansion (in terms of member states), and I'm happy to allow that to happen.  I don't want to live in Pangurban's utopia.

[magpie seanie]

I disagree BB's. The EU has been a massive help but it hasn't "single-handedly dragged 1970s Ireland into the modern world". We did a lot of innovative things ourselves to help spawn the Celtic Tiger and that must not be forgotten. We had the scope to pitch oursleves a certain way.

I'm not anti-Europe at all. I just don't see need for any further integration. We joined an economic grouping in the 70's which has served us and its members well, by and large. I don't feel we need further integration with Europe. No-one has convinced me that the EU is about to fall apart under its current structures. If it aint broke....

Hound - I disagree with some of what you're saying. I'm perfectly satisfied over neutrality, abortion and taxation (though some day the pressure will come on again for us to ditch our low CT rates - you can go to the bank with that). I don't think a lot of people believe the looneys and their scaremongering to be honest. I just feel that a lot of people are of the same opinion as myself - Europe is fine the way it is.

On the point about all the mainstream parties supporting it - Politicians are not neutral in this debate. There's something in it for them - jobs, junkets or whatever. Realisitically, only 5 or 6 at most people decide policy for each of those parties and all the others toe the line. Like the goons who were out marching in support of retaining cancer services in Sligo one week but voted against it in the Dáil the next.

[Tankie]

I'll be voting 'Yes' - we've been in the EU (in its various forms) for 35 years and it has been the best thing that has happened this country; socially and economically.  It has single-handedly dragged 1970s Ireland into the modern world - the 'No' camp have been making the same wrong arguments since then, and nothing has changed on either side.  It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that, administratively, the EU needed to change to allow for its expansion (in terms of member states), and I'm happy to allow that to happen.  I don't want to live in Pangurban's utopia.

I second that BB! well said

[Billys Boots]

We had the scope to pitch oursleves a certain way.

Well I disagree too Seanie, we had the scope to pitch ourselves as a member state of a large trading bloc (with the knock on absence of trade barriers) with a favourable tax regimen, which was clever alright, but wouldn't have been possible as an 'independent' state.  We took advantage of a good position, just like we did in 1973, and just like we need to do again now.

[magpie seanie]

I accept a lot of that BB's but I just don't see the benefits of this current proposal.

I'd be interested in your view. How do you think its going to keep our economy strong and keep jobs in the country? Personally I find it hard to see how we will sustain our success. I cannot see a new niche for our country and it worries me a little about the future. Nothing in this treaty eases those worries from what I can see.

[Tankie]

I accept a lot of that BB's but I just don't see the benefits of this current proposal.

I'd be interested in your view. How do you think its going to keep our economy strong and keep jobs in the country? Personally I find it hard to see how we will sustain our success. I cannot see a new niche for our country and it worries me a little about the future. Nothing in this treaty eases those worries from what I can see.

It involves looking at a bigger picture, too late in the day to get into it again! A stronger EU benifits Ireland

[Billys Boots]

Well, I'm not too optimistic about keeping our economy strong 'independently', because we're too dependent on factors completely outside our control - we all know what they are.  I'd agree that we need to create new niches for ourselves, in the same way as small companies need to do likewise to compete on the same stage as multinationals.  What is 'good' about our position is that we're able to move quickly from being a 'haven' for electronics/pharmachem companies (as in the early 90s) to teleservices/IT/internet companies (as in the boom times) to financial services (more recently).  Maintaining this 'position' (i.e. allowing us to do this) is absolutely dependent on being part of the EU - placing us on the periphery of a trading bloc, with the absence of trade restrictions therein.  My business has won work (in the past two years) in Cyprus, Holland, Denmark and Britain - I don't for one moment imagine that I could get this work if not in an integrated EU.

By the way, I don't think there are any benefits in the Treaty, for anyone - other than a more effectively operated and managed Commission.

[Hardy]

Great debate lads and more illuminating than much of what has polluted the public discourse on this referendum. Sterling stuff from Zapatista in particular.

I would have started out inclined to vote 'Yes', subject to informing myself on the details. My attempt to inform myself has been frustrated by the deliberate policy of the government, the coalition supporting the proposal and the vested interests in the EU itself to cloud the issue, simplify the argument to stultifying "do the right thing because Europe has been good to us" exhortations and lie about the potential consequences of a rejection of the treaty.

This is NOT a referendum about whether we stay in the EU, maintain the benefits of membership, etc. We are being asked to approve a proposal for changing how the EU is governed. We are entitled to say we don't think it's a good proposal without being threatened with expulsion, accused of ingratitude or presumed to be anti-Europe.

With my attempts to inform myself frustrated, I haven't been able to find a good reason to vote 'Yes'. That should leave me in a theoretically neutral position. However, if there's no reason to vote 'Yes' the only reasonable option is to vote 'No', despite my discomfort at the coalition of crusties, malcontents and erstwhile enemies of the state that puts me in communion with.

Zapatista put it best – contrary to the government's proclamations that there is no plan B if we vote no, in fact there is no plan B, no going back, if we vote 'Yes', while the likely aftermath of a 'No' seems straightforward enough – carry on as we are until we get a reasonable proposal for change that we can support. Therefore, I vote to maintain the current system until we are given an honest  and open proposal for improving the workings of the EU that is clear and concise on what we are gaining and what we are giving up.

However, the clinching argument for me was something I found in the Referendum Commission's booklet and that in the whole public debate I have seen mentioned only once, by Magpie Seanie here. It is this (in reference to the proposal to give the European Council the power to amend the treaties by unanimous vote):

"Under the proposed amendment to the Constitution of Ireland the approval of the Dáil and Seanad will be required for Ireland to agree to such proposed changes. Such changes would not require a referendum in Ireland".

To me, that is the most important change to our constitution proposed in this referendum and I find it amazing that it has hardly even surfaced in the debate.

[Death Valley]

Vote No. Europe is now dictating everything from cutting turf to cutting hedgerows. Uniform cooperate tax for all members. Whats mine is mine & what yours is mine attitude from  France & Germany. Germany tried to exterminate half the population of Europe. Those guys should never have been allowed to have political autonomy. As for those ignorant French, the ultimate pig ignorant nation.