The Official Lisbon Treaty Thread

[muppet]

You completely miss the point. We elected the entire Dáil including Cowan. The Dáil then elected Cowan as its and our leader. None of us had a vote for the EU president. None of us had a vote for the EU comissioners. Under the EU system we would vote for County Councils who would then elect the Dáil with no input from us. 

i dont miss the point, we elect the dail and the dail elect the taoiseah on the nomination of the largest party in government. we elect the european parliment and the european parliment elect a president of the commission on the basis of a nomination of the heads of government. no democratic deficit here imo

Missed again and this time another wide with it.

Firstly, the EU Parliament didn't elect Barosso, the EU Council nominated him President Delegate and he was then endorsed by the European Parliament. The EU Council has no executive powers, the EU parliament has only joint powers in some areas and no legislative powers on its own. The EU Comission, who are not elected have most of the power.

Secondly the Dáil elected Cowan our leader from the Dáil, not an unelected nominee from a non executive body.

Finally why do the Yes camp not accept that if there is a no vote then that is the democratic vote of the poeple? If there really is no Plan B then any responsible Government would have to resign.

If it is a Yes vote then fine, but it should be because the people have spoken not because they were given no choice.

[Tankie]

You completely miss the point. We elected the entire Dáil including Cowan. The Dáil then elected Cowan as its and our leader. None of us had a vote for the EU president. None of us had a vote for the EU comissioners. Under the EU system we would vote for County Councils who would then elect the Dáil with no input from us. 

i dont miss the point, we elect the dail and the dail elect the taoiseah on the nomination of the largest party in government. we elect the european parliment and the european parliment elect a president of the commission on the basis of a nomination of the heads of government. no democratic deficit here imo

Missed again and this time another wide with it.

Firstly, the EU Parliament didn't elect Barosso, the EU Council nominated him President Delegate and he was then endorsed by the European Parliament. The EU Council has no executive powers, the EU parliament has only joint powers in some areas and no legislative powers on its own. The EU Comission, who are not elected have most of the power.

Secondly the Dáil elected Cowan our leader from the Dáil, not an unelected nominee from a non executive body.

Finally why do the Yes camp not accept that if there is a no vote then that is the democratic vote of the poeple? If there really is no Plan B then any responsible Government would have to resign.

If it is a Yes vote then fine, but it should be because the people have spoken not because they were given no choice.

The government that we elected has said that this is the best deal that we can get, i think we should believe them over Sinn Fein.

[stephenite]

http://spailpin.blogspot.com/

[Tankie]

good thing on TV3 now

[magickingdom]

Missed again and this time another wide with it.

Firstly, the EU Parliament didn't elect Barosso, the EU Council nominated him President Delegate and he was then endorsed by the European Parliament. The EU Council has no executive powers, the EU parliament has only joint powers in some areas and no legislative powers on its own. The EU Comission, who are not elected have most of the power.

Secondly the Dáil elected Cowan our leader from the Dáil, not an unelected nominee from a non executive body.

Finally why do the Yes camp not accept that if there is a no vote then that is the democratic vote of the poeple? If there really is no Plan B then any responsible Government would have to resign.

If it is a Yes vote then fine, but it should be because the people have spoken not because they were given no choice.

this is exactly what i said.
"the european parliment elect a president of the commission on the basis of a nomination of the heads of government"
which is the very same as what you said
"the EU Council nominated him President Delegate and he was then endorsed by the European Parliament"

the eu council is the heads of government and by endorsed i presume you mean approve by vote (they can also reject him)

so how did i miss the point? or are you just trying to confuse the issue some more. your point about the eu council having no executive powers is disingenuous - the eu council has better things to do as its the supreme body of the eu

[stephenite]

Thought this was an interesting take on the scenarios of what would happen in either a No or Yes vote

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0610/lisbonscenarios.html

[Hound]

- Is it true that FG and Labour are in favour of CCCTB?

No!

The government that we elected has said that this is the best deal that we can get, i think we should believe them over Sinn Fein.

Not only the government, but the main opposition too.

Does anyone really believe that, say, Eamon Gilmore would publicly announce that FF got a fair deal, when they didnt???

Its laughable to hear Sinn Fein and Libertas saying we should go back and get a better deal. No matter what deal was brokered they would have campaigned for a No vote, as they have done in all previous EU debates.

The RTE link posted by stephenite above is a very good summary.

[Zapatista]

- Is it true that FG and Labour are in favour of CCCTB?

No!

You better tell these guys so.

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=36197

The government that we elected has said that this is the best deal that we can get, i think we should believe them over Sinn Fein.

Not only the government, but the main opposition too.

Does anyone really believe that, say, Eamon Gilmore would publicly announce that FF got a fair deal, when they didnt???

Its laughable to hear Sinn Fein and Libertas saying we should go back and get a better deal. No matter what deal was brokered they would have campaigned for a No vote, as they have done in all previous EU debates.

The RTE link posted by stephenite above is a very good summary.

I believe Gilmore would do that. Labour cannot get the support of their members. Labour's leadership are using this as a show of support for FG. Labour are using this to promote their local cllrs for the next local election rather than fight for a Yes on the treaty. Labour, like FF and FG assumed it would be a resounding Yes and have jumped on the bandwagon for reasons other than the treaty too early in campaign. It has back fired on labour and their core support are voting against this treaty.

I don't remember Libertas campaigning for a No vote before.

Are you really comparing SF saying no now to SF in the early 70s saying No? That is just ridiculous. How did they fight the campaign, by banging bin lids on the ground? SF opposed the Nice treaty and the people agreed. They opposed it again and the people disagreed. Sounds fair to me. Consistently saying No to what the EU want is no different than consistently saying Yes.

It is laughable to be presented with a referendum and have no one consider there might be a No vote leaving us without a plan B. It is an act of contempt to Irish democracy even.

There is a Plan B, C, D and even E.

B - Renegotiate another treaty.
C - Hold referendum until there is a Yes vote.
D - Maintain the status-quo
E - Ignore irelands vote and continue on with the treaty in those countries that have ratified it (there are 11 more to do so after Ireland). Give Ireland the option of ratifying the treaty later if they wish.

I don't think any of these sound too bad.

[magpie seanie]

D - Maintain the status-quo

I vote for this!

[Tankie]

D - Maintain the status-quo

I vote for this!

Well that aint gonna happen regardless and it stupid to think it will.

[his holiness nb]

I voted no on this thread at the start. But having read the details and heard the debates, I will be voting yes.
Simple enough, it'll make things run a bit smoother, no big deal.

The scaremongering about our neutrality and abortion and the likes coming out of the no camp have really made me lose respect for them.

The best possible argument to be made so far for voting no is that its difficult to understand. All the other arguments have been rubbish, and proved to be so.

That said, I fear a no vote will win out due to some older, more simple people (not an insult) being scared into voting no.
An elder relation of mine told me yesterday she was voting no as she had been told its a step towards legalising abortion!

the people spreading these lies should be banned from campaigning.

[Rav67]

It coms down to a question of trust in both the government and Europe really, some people obviously fear that despite what it says on the face of it, Ireland's control over its own affairs will diminish by stealth in the future.  From what I've read I'd vote yes if I'd the chance but I understand the scepticism to a degree.

[Zapatista]

I voted no on this thread at the start. But having read the details and heard the debates, I will be voting yes.
Simple enough, it'll make things run a bit smoother, no big deal.

The scaremongering about our neutrality and abortion and the likes coming out of the no camp have really made me lose respect for them.

The best possible argument to be made so far for voting no is that its difficult to understand. All the other arguments have been rubbish, and proved to be so.

That said, I fear a no vote will win out due to some older, more simple people (not an insult) being scared into voting no.
An elder relation of mine told me yesterday she was voting no as she had been told its a step towards legalising abortion!

the people spreading these lies should be banned from campaigning.

Goodman HH. It's refreshing to see someone look at the debate and change their mind.

WHile you are right about abortion I have to disagree about neutrality. I do believe some of the No camp are red faced about the abortion claim but it is true that most of the No side never made that claim. Patricia McKenna (Green), Joe Higgans (SP)  and ML McDonald (SF) have all said abortion is not a threat. I think the Yes side are using the untruth from a small section of the No side to beat them all with.

I believe our Neutrality is under threat. While it does not say in the Treaty that we must fight in EU wars it does say we must improve military capability. It does say we must come to the aid of member states under terrorist attack (like Spain and Basque). It says we must take part in disarmenent missions (like Iraq was). It does create an office for minister for foriegn affairs and common defence (this could be Tony Blair Butcher af Bagdad). The French currently hold the Presidency and are withholding a document on a common defence from us until after the treaty is passed at the wish of our Government. Our troops in Chad are there at the request of a colonial French State responsible for the war in Chad and US troops travel through Shannon on their way to war in Iraq. I believe we are not Neutral and I believe our Government don't want us to be neutral. I do not support Neutrality but I do oppose a common defence with powerful countries who have a very different view of their place in the world than we do. I believe, while this not the nail in the coffin of neutrality it is a very big step towards it. Death by a thousand cuts.

There are more arguements than it being hard to understand.

There are lies on both sides. There is a plan B. If not it would be like offering us an apple and saying "take the one you want".

[Tankie]

But whats is this Plan B? if we go back to the table with a list of demands I'd say the other 26 will do the same and more could have to be given up.

We negotiated this deal and are our parties are happy its the best out there and I think it would be crazy to go back and try renegotiate

[Croí na hÉireann]

The best possible argument to be made so far for voting no is that its difficult to understand. All the other arguments have been rubbish, and proved to be so.

If you don't understand something, don't vote on it...

Still undecided, it'd be much easier to vote no if all the loons weren't running around spreading rumours...