The Race for the ARAS.....

[ONeill]

That's true. On the other hand, if John Hume had run, there would have been no contest, possibly literally. The same probably applies to Seamus Heaney. And that belies the perception expressed by some of our Northern contributors that there was an anti-Northern bias here during the campaign among the electorate and the media.

This is my opinion Hardy but the lasting impression from this election is that so many our southern brethren have absolutely no understanding of, or empathy with, the political and social timeline in NI over the last 30 years and its impact on us (nationalists/republicans/gaels/deviants/druggies), nor do they want to.

I agree. I'm just surprised that so many of you are surprised. If you mean it as a criticism of people in the twenty-six, I think that's unfair. How could we possibly fully understand something that happened to somebody else or fully empathise with it? We've lived as separate countries, de facto, regardless of aspirations or desires for the best part of a century.

This in turn means they have little knowledge (nor do they want to have) of their own history and are happy with the present. That's their prerogative but I can't help but feel ultimately dismayed at reaction in the media and on here as a sample.

This bit I don't understand. How does it follow from what you said above that they/we have little knowledge of their/our OWN history? I'm not sure what it is exactly that dismays you, but if it's criticism of McGuinness's past, again I'm surprised it's a surprise.

The provos have always been anathema "down here" to an extent that it seems is not at all understood in the North. The extent was, I'd guess, about 95 percent of the population during the troubles. (What's a surprise is that it's so much less now and the speed of SF's electoral rehabilitation in the face of that antipathy). We have endless debates here about whether that's justified but leave that and the reasons for it to another day. It is simply a fact. In turn, what's not understood down here and is a surprise to many is the apparent level of support they have in the North and the readiness of so many who are effectively the same stock as ourselves to forgive their atrocities.

It is true, as was pointed out by someone here recently and by Martin McGuinness that we down here are behind the play in the reconciliation and moving on stakes. You've had ten years of it up there and the "what did you do in the war?"  question has long since been put aside. It was a mutually understood enabling step for the whole peace process.

We probably don't grasp that. Again, that shouldn't really be a surprise. We have had the luxury of not having had to.

This doesn't make us any worse as a people despite what Pangurban baldly stated and others imply. It is simply a fact and the product of our history, just as public attitudes up there are the product of yours.

People's priorities are always ordered for their own and their families' welfare. Political considerations come well down the list for most. To that extent, most people down here are not concerned about the political arrangements in the North. People are not dying any more. Nobody's material or human rights are being infringed. All that is denied is the aspiration to political unity and that only for as long as the majority lasts. So here comes the statement that may be a bigger shock to you. Most people down here are not that pushed about a United Ireland in the post peace-process world of EU partnership and in the absence of perceptible discrimination of any kind up there.

I have tried to debate this here numerous times by asking the what is the case now, in the environment I've described, for a UI? What rights and freedoms currently denied would it confer? Would everybody be better off, materially, socially, culturally? Would anybody?

I have an emotional attachment to the idea myself as do a large majority here, but I can't answer those questions. More to the point, despite many efforts, I've never had them answered in this forum either.

We're both Irishmen and women on the one island yet, now evidently, poles apart at the same time.

We're only poles apart in what we consider important issues in our lives. Political considerations feature more strongly in the Northern psyche for understandable reasons. Apart from that, there's little that divides us and most people down here can unite with Armagh, Down, Antrim, Fermanagh and Derry in hating Tyrone football and all its pomps.

I suppose we could quote all night but I think we understand each other.

Perhaps today made things a little sharper for me.

Earlier I got my hands on a book that chronicled in a seriously detailed manner the deaths and operations of IRA members in Tyrone since 1970, in glorious colour. The effort to produce such a tome was mind-blowing, even at £25. Often the open coffin was pictured. Many were intelligent, educated and the sort of men you'd enjoy a pint with. On occasions you saw McGuinness at the wakes, at the funeral and giving the oration. He wasn't doing that for personal gain. They were the ugly reality of his leadership and he knew it as did the families. I had a close connection to one of those detailed and remember Martin's presence and what it meant to us. It would have been easy to blame the SF figureheads. No one did because it was what we bought in to. It was odd reading back on that; something which seemed so run of the mill at the time but now appears surreal.

To see McGuinness on the RTE platforms debating banal matters for a relatively powerless position was almost alien. Yet at the same time it felt right - pontificating all-Ireland issues (to an extent). You can understand when some of us get pissed off when his IRA membership or the use of the word 'murder' became a sticking point in any debate. McGuinness is a product of his political and social times. It surprises me that the media don't or maybe will not acknowledge that.

[trasna man]

mc guins faced the fury of the southern media about his past but it needed to be done i was a very proud derry and irish man listening to him at the press conference for michael d election (great man by the way) think he has advanced the movement for irish freedom to a new level and the return of the fourth green field

[Nally Stand]

Earlier I got my hands on a book that chronicled in a seriously detailed manner the deaths and operations of IRA members in Tyrone since 1970, in glorious colour. The effort to produce such a tome was mind-blowing, even at £25. Often the open coffin was pictured. Many were intelligent, educated and the sort of men you'd enjoy a pint with.

Incredible book, all 700+ pages

[Pangurban]

Excellent post Hardy, which goes straight to the hub of the matter. What you omit to address, is how the different perspectives you speak off were developed, and how they contributed to the recent troubles. Following partition the Grandparents of todays Nationalists in the North were left in a state in which they felt alien, but were encouraged by southern politicians to believe was only temporary. Hence they refused to co-operate with or give recognition too the northern state. This resulted in massive discrimination against them, as they were rightly viewed by the Unionist community as being an enemy within. We need not rehearse the history of the pogroms against the Nationalist community during the twenties  and thirties, you will be well aware of them. Although no attempt was made by any southern government to address the problem of partition and its effect on Northern Nationalists,other than empty rhetoric, the Parents of present day Nationalists continued to look south for assistance, and were encouraged and sustained in this view by the 1937 Constitution which claimed jurisdiction over the whole island. Improvements in education and the increased entry to grammar schools and universities produced the better educated generation of todays nationalist community. Unlike their Grandparents and Parents they were not prepared to suffer indignities of discrimination or wait patiently and forlornly for the southern government to make representations on their behalf. Thus arose the civil rights movement which was met with massive state violence. Throughout this whole period the government of the south remained silent and looked the other way. It was this sense of abandonment and the realisation they were on their own, which led many young Men to join armed groups to resist and defend their communities. This led to the horror of the thirty year war., and the many atrocities by all sides. Many nationalists believe that if the south had spoken out more strongly, had been prepared to use the influence of their Embassies throughout the world, to pressurise the British into addressing the problem politically rather than militarily, all the suffering could have been avoided. Instead what we got was Irish Governments swallowing hook,line and sinker the British perspective, and co-operating with them against the interests of Northern Nationalists to prevent the trouble spilling over into their jurisdiction and they having to get more involved. Not since Caeser has there been such a public washing off Hands. Sixty years of empty rhetoric and false promises by southern governments of all hues, but particularly FF, contributed enormously to the tragedy which befell the North. That is why Northern Nationalists off all Parties are now very angered by the smug comdemnations and moralising of Southeners. Never again will any Northener listen too or trust the word of a southern politician. We have learned the bitter lesson that our destiny is in our own Hands. While we work it out, dont presume to condemn us, until you are willing too accept your share of responsibility

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Nobody's material or human rights are being infringed. All that is denied is the aspiration to political unity and that only for as long as the majority lasts. So here comes the statement that may be a bigger shock to you. Most people down here are not that pushed about a United Ireland in the post peace-process world of EU partnership and in the absence of perceptible discrimination of any kind up there.

Being colonised is not acceptable, although a less onerous regime is of course welcome. Just as being kidnapped is not acceptable, even if you are confined in a 5 star hotel.

O f**k the hell off, most of us are decended from Gaelic, Norse/Viking/Gallo-Gael, Frisians, Norman/Welsh/Old-English/Breton/Cornish/French/Flemish colonists anyways.

Add in the Border Scots, Border English, Gallowglass warriors, Palatine Germans, French Hugenots, French Napoleonic troops, Spanish Armada Sailors, British-Dutch-Danish soldiers, we are an even more mixed race. Now we have West African, Portugese, Polish, Romanian, Russians, Brazilians, Chinese, Indians and Australins wanting to join the Irish melting pot.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

mc guins faced the fury of the southern media about his past but it needed to be done i was a very proud derry and irish man listening to him at the press conference for michael d election (great man by the way) think he has advanced the movement for irish freedom to a new level and the return of the fourth green field

Think he took it back 6 steps, stop sending villans down to us. You really need to realise insulting Unionist north of the border an offending your fellow Nationalist south of the border only holds back our day of enivtable and glorious unity back.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Nobody's material or human rights are being infringed. All that is denied is the aspiration to political unity and that only for as long as the majority lasts. So here comes the statement that may be a bigger shock to you. Most people down here are not that pushed about a United Ireland in the post peace-process world of EU partnership and in the absence of perceptible discrimination of any kind up there.

Being colonised is not acceptable, although a less onerous regime is of course welcome. Just as being kidnapped is not acceptable, even if you are confined in a 5 star hotel.

never heard it explained better armaghniac. possibly the best post on this thread

Were the Gaels/Norse/Gallo-Gaels/Norman/Welsh/Old-English/Frisians/Flemish/Cornish/Bretons/French not colonist too  Maybe not because because that is the Catholic genepool.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Excellent post Hardy, which goes straight to the hub of the matter. What you omit to address, is how the different perspectives you speak off were developed, and how they contributed to the recent troubles. Following partition the Grandparents of todays Nationalists in the North were left in a state in which they felt alien, but were encouraged by southern politicians to believe was only temporary. Hence they refused to co-operate with or give recognition too the northern state. This resulted in massive discrimination against them, as they were rightly viewed by the Unionist community as being an enemy within. We need not rehearse the history of the pogroms against the Nationalist community during the twenties  and thirties, you will be well aware of them. Although no attempt was made by any southern government to address the problem of partition and its effect on Northern Nationalists,other than empty rhetoric, the Parents of present day Nationalists continued to look south for assistance, and were encouraged and sustained in this view by the 1937 Constitution which claimed jurisdiction over the whole island. Improvements in education and the increased entry to grammar schools and universities produced the better educated generation of todays nationalist community. Unlike their Grandparents and Parents they were not prepared to suffer indignities of discrimination or wait patiently and forlornly for the southern government to make representations on their behalf. Thus arose the civil rights movement which was met with massive state violence. Throughout this whole period the government of the south remained silent and looked the other way. It was this sense of abandonment and the realisation they were on their own, which led many young Men to join armed groups to resist and defend their communities. This led to the horror of the thirty year war., and the many atrocities by all sides. Many nationalists believe that if the south had spoken out more strongly, had been prepared to use the influence of their Embassies throughout the world, to pressurise the British into addressing the problem politically rather than militarily, all the suffering could have been avoided. Instead what we got was Irish Governments swallowing hook,line and sinker the British perspective, and co-operating with them against the interests of Northern Nationalists to prevent the trouble spilling over into their jurisdiction and they having to get more involved. Not since Caeser has there been such a public washing off Hands. Sixty years of empty rhetoric and false promises by southern governments of all hues, but particularly FF, contributed enormously to the tragedy which befell the North. That is why Northern Nationalists off all Parties are now very angered by the smug comdemnations and moralising of Southeners. Never again will any Northener listen too or trust the word of a southern politician. We have learned the bitter lesson that our destiny is in our own Hands. While we work it out, dont presume to condemn us, until you are willing too accept your share of responsibility

Blood southerners, good job I am a Westerner. Unlike most of the rantings from the north this was cohernt and actually made a degree of sense. While I disagree, well Done Pagurban.

[Nally Stand]

mc guins faced the fury of the southern media about his past but it needed to be done i was a very proud derry and irish man listening to him at the press conference for michael d election (great man by the way) think he has advanced the movement for irish freedom to a new level and the return of the fourth green field

Think he took it back 6 steps, stop sending villans down to us....

Odd choice of phrase for someone who says he is not partitionist.

[Nally Stand]

Excellent post Hardy, which goes straight to the hub of the matter. What you omit to address, is how the different perspectives you speak off were developed, and how they contributed to the recent troubles. Following partition the Grandparents of todays Nationalists in the North were left in a state in which they felt alien, but were encouraged by southern politicians to believe was only temporary. Hence they refused to co-operate with or give recognition too the northern state. This resulted in massive discrimination against them, as they were rightly viewed by the Unionist community as being an enemy within. We need not rehearse the history of the pogroms against the Nationalist community during the twenties  and thirties, you will be well aware of them. Although no attempt was made by any southern government to address the problem of partition and its effect on Northern Nationalists,other than empty rhetoric, the Parents of present day Nationalists continued to look south for assistance, and were encouraged and sustained in this view by the 1937 Constitution which claimed jurisdiction over the whole island. Improvements in education and the increased entry to grammar schools and universities produced the better educated generation of todays nationalist community. Unlike their Grandparents and Parents they were not prepared to suffer indignities of discrimination or wait patiently and forlornly for the southern government to make representations on their behalf. Thus arose the civil rights movement which was met with massive state violence. Throughout this whole period the government of the south remained silent and looked the other way. It was this sense of abandonment and the realisation they were on their own, which led many young Men to join armed groups to resist and defend their communities. This led to the horror of the thirty year war., and the many atrocities by all sides. Many nationalists believe that if the south had spoken out more strongly, had been prepared to use the influence of their Embassies throughout the world, to pressurise the British into addressing the problem politically rather than militarily, all the suffering could have been avoided. Instead what we got was Irish Governments swallowing hook,line and sinker the British perspective, and co-operating with them against the interests of Northern Nationalists to prevent the trouble spilling over into their jurisdiction and they having to get more involved. Not since Caeser has there been such a public washing off Hands. Sixty years of empty rhetoric and false promises by southern governments of all hues, but particularly FF, contributed enormously to the tragedy which befell the North. That is why Northern Nationalists off all Parties are now very angered by the smug comdemnations and moralising of Southeners. Never again will any Northener listen too or trust the word of a southern politician. We have learned the bitter lesson that our destiny is in our own Hands. While we work it out, dont presume to condemn us, until you are willing too accept your share of responsibility

Blood southerners, good job I am a Westerner. Unlike most of the rantings from the north this was cohernt and actually made a degree of sense. While I disagree, well Done Pagurban.

If you disagree, could I ask you for your explanation as to why many six county nationalists feel so let down by the 26 counties over the years?

[Maguire01]

mc guins faced the fury of the southern media about his past but it needed to be done i was a very proud derry and irish man listening to him at the press conference for michael d election (great man by the way) think he has advanced the movement for irish freedom to a new level and the return of the fourth green field

I don't see how.

[trueblue1234]

mc guins faced the fury of the southern media about his past but it needed to be done i was a very proud derry and irish man listening to him at the press conference for michael d election (great man by the way) think he has advanced the movement for irish freedom to a new level and the return of the fourth green field

Think he took it back 6 steps, stop sending villans down to us. You really need to realise insulting Unionist north of the border an offending your fellow Nationalist south of the border only holds back our day of enivtable and glorious unity back.

You sir, are a bollix.

Read Nallys post at the top of the page and realise what a hyprocritical clown you are!

[Main Street]

Why do people keep replying to that clown,
just ignore him  ---  totally.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

mc guins faced the fury of the southern media about his past but it needed to be done i was a very proud derry and irish man listening to him at the press conference for michael d election (great man by the way) think he has advanced the movement for irish freedom to a new level and the return of the fourth green field

Think he took it back 6 steps, stop sending villans down to us. You really need to realise insulting Unionist north of the border an offending your fellow Nationalist south of the border only holds back our day of enivtable and glorious unity back.

You sir, are a bollix.

Read Nallys post at the top of the page and realise what a hyprocritical clown you are!

You lads get fierce upset when we don't fawn you the glorious leader and worship the SF cult. You do realise we have the right not to like them..

[Arthur_Friend]

mc guins faced the fury of the southern media about his past but it needed to be done i was a very proud derry and irish man listening to him at the press conference for michael d election (great man by the way) think he has advanced the movement for irish freedom to a new level and the return of the fourth green field

Think he took it back 6 steps, stop sending villans down to us. You really need to realise insulting Unionist north of the border an offending your fellow Nationalist south of the border only holds back our day of enivtable and glorious unity back.

You sir, are a bollix.

Read Nallys post at the top of the page and realise what a hyprocritical clown you are!

You lads get fierce upset when we don't fawn you the glorious leader and worship the SF cult. You do realise we have the right not to like them..

You aren't that much different with your FG worship. Pot, Kettle, Black.