McCarthy admits he does not have backing of Cork hurlers

[AZOffaly]

Exactly Are we all in violent agreement here?

I thought there was some notion that the beating yesterday somehow put the tin hat on the Cork lads actions back then.

I'm saying you can't prove or disprove whether they were right or wrong BACK THEN on the basis of a game two years later.

But what we can say is that Cork have not avanced as a result of staging yet another strike in terms of their perforamce against KK in 2008 as compared with 2010 ?. 

I think that's a more valid observation, certainly, but how much of that is miles on the clock, versus a continually refreshed Kilkenny team? The core observation is valid though. Cork 2008 were closer to Kilkenny 2008 than Cork 2010 were to Kilkenny 2010.

Maybe it's Kilkenny that have advanced at a faster rate though? I think it's a little of both. Kilkenny have progressed, Cork have regressed. But that's opinion, not fact

[orangeman]

Because you cannot prove anything about 2 years ago. Cork are 2 years older now, so shipping a beating from a Kilkenny team that played better yesterday than 2 years ago does not prove that the Cork lads were wrong back then.

All it proves is that today, this Kilkenny team is far, far better than this Cork team.

Anything else is hypothesising.

OK lets agree with your argument so. Similar "hypothesising" was reason enough for the shenanigans the Cork players indulged in so what's good for the goose etc...

Absolutely. No arguments there. What I'm saying is that rehashing the one argument on the basis of what happened yesterday is pointless.

And cheap ? 

It's cheap because it is the easy shot to take.

'Ye gave out about Gerald back in 2008 when ye were bate, and now ye were bate by more, so take that ye feckers'.

I think that's an easy dig to give, and is not based on anything other than Karma.

[/b]

Do you really believe that had Cork went out and bate KK yesterday that the papers and the pro stike men would have kept quiet and that the "effect" of the strike would not have got a mention in some newspaper, internet forum or yet another biography produced in time for the Christmas market / January sales ?.

[AZOffaly]

That's more hypothesising

But if they did, I would have said exactly the same to them. In this case A does not imply B, whatever way the final result went.

[orangeman]

That's more hypothesising

But if they did, I would have said exactly the same to them. In this case A does not imply B, whatever way the final result went.

Mmmmmm. I'd say there would have been at least a couple of chapters devoted to it. The diaries weren't kept for nothing back then.

[AZOffaly]

That's more hypothesising

But if they did, I would have said exactly the same to them. In this case A does not imply B, whatever way the final result went.

[dowling]

I would have to disagree with you there AZ. The strike leaders were saying that Ger's approach was holding them back but also that what they were doing was for the good of Cork hurling. Their clear implication was that Cork hurling would improve. If I'd time to trawl I'd probably find a direct quote but I'm happy to stick with the implication. There were excuses made last year for not measuring up but now they have had a clear run. So where is Cork senior hurling now? Better off or in a worse place? Last year pro strike posters were using the 'first year syndrome' to deflect criticism and as Skull pointed out they're trying to deflect criticism now by implying some of us are obsessed, hateful or irrational. So when do we relate the strike and all that went with it to the standing of Cork hurling? Or are people saying the strike isn't relative to Cork hurling even though the strikers made that the premise for their action. Posters can't have it both ways. I've no doubt that had Cork thrashed Kilkenny yesterday the pro crowd would have been on here pointing to the strike as a milestone. Unfortunately it's proved only to be a millstone around the neck of Cork hurling.
No doubt Walsh will get a lot of blame subtly directed at him but I have always felt that he still hadn't taken control from the strike ringleaders and their mark remained in Cork's play and even their lead up to the game. John Gardiner coming out and saying all the pressure is on Kilkenny! I'm sure when Walsh read that he must have thought, 'what the f...!' That seems like something Gardiner and Donal óg came up with.
Two years on players are older, have taken more knocks and picked up more injuries. But have they also prevented younger players coming through because of their control? And on the two year thing, why didn't they realise what was in front of them when they started the strike?
What must Ger McCarthy be thinking now? Or Teddy McCarthy? Was it all worth it.
Wouldn't it be great if just one pro poster could come on and acknowledge the strike achieved nothing for Cork hurling and two years wiser he/she was wrong to support it?

[AZOffaly]

I would have to disagree with you there AZ. The strike leaders were saying that Ger's approach was holding them back but also that what they were doing was for the good of Cork hurling. Their clear implication was that Cork hurling would improve. If I'd time to trawl I'd probably find a direct quote but I'm happy to stick with the implication. There were excuses made last year for not measuring up but now they have had a clear run. So where is Cork senior hurling now? Better off or in a worse place? Last year pro strike posters were using the 'first year syndrome' to deflect criticism and as Skull pointed out they're trying to deflect criticism now by implying some of us are obsessed, hateful or irrational. So when do we relate the strike and all that went with it to the standing of Cork hurling? Or are people saying the strike isn't relative to Cork hurling even though the strikers made that the premise for their action. Posters can't have it both ways. I've no doubt that had Cork thrashed Kilkenny yesterday the pro crowd would have been on here pointing to the strike as a milestone. Unfortunately it's proved only to be a millstone around the neck of Cork hurling.
No doubt Walsh will get a lot of blame subtly directed at him but I have always felt that he still hadn't taken control from the strike ringleaders and their mark remained in Cork's play and even their lead up to the game. John Gardiner coming out and saying all the pressure is on Kilkenny! I'm sure when Walsh read that he must have thought, 'what the f...!' That seems like something Gardiner and Donal óg came up with.
Two years on players are older, have taken more knocks and picked up more injuries. But have they also prevented younger players coming through because of their control? And on the two year thing, why didn't they realise what was in front of them when they started the strike?
What must Ger McCarthy be thinking now? Or Teddy McCarthy? Was it all worth it.
Wouldn't it be great if just one pro poster could come on and acknowledge the strike achieved nothing for Cork hurling and two years wiser he/she was wrong to support it?

But sure that's a moot point. Again you are tying the result yesterday with the strike, and the reasons for the strike. Look, I'm not particularly pro Cork, nor pro the strikes, but I did think the county board were as much at fault as the players back then. If I were a 'pro' strike poster, as you call them, I'd be thinking that yesterday is immaterial in the big picture.

The strike may have a lasting legacy in breaking the control the county board had over the players, and that would be what it 'achieved' for Cork hurling. We were saying 2 years ago that this Cork team had shot it bolt back then. There's a bigger picture than whether Donal Óg or Gardiner get another Celtic cross.

For what it's worth, I believe that the clubs and players should hang their heads because they had an opportunity to take on the man they all really grumble about. They reneged.

But anyway, I thought I posted here to try and stop this being discussed, now it's about 4 pages longer

[fearglasmor]

The only thing I would want a player to b econcerned with is his performance the next day out.
The GAA management are responsible for the good of the GAA and the Cork county board are responsible for the good of the GAA in Cork. Players only concern should be with the here and now. If the strikers had made such a statement at least that would have had some integrity. Bullshit about the good of Cork GAA is just that.

[AZOffaly]

Are we really going to rehash this whole argument again? Seriously?

And how did I get tagged as the Cork player man? Reillers et al, get your arses in here and do your job

All I will say is the County Board knew what they were dealing with in terms of a stubborn group of players who would stand up to them, and they engineered that strike back then to put manners on them. Then they threw McCarthy to the wolves in a bid to get an exit strategy at the end.

[theskull1]

Are we really going to rehash this whole argument again? Seriously?

Is that a Tony Blair quote AZ 

[AZOffaly]

Jaysus I hope not.

[Zulu]

And how did I get tagged as the Cork player man?  Reillers et al, get your arses in here and do your job

We'll take from here AZ but thanks!

The strike leaders were saying that Ger's approach was holding them back but also that what they were doing was for the good of Cork hurling.

A lie, plain and simple. They were doing for the good of their own (the senior) Cork hurling team.

There were excuses made last year for not measuring up but now they have had a clear run. So where is Cork senior hurling now? Better off or in a worse place?

Cork played all the other AI semi finalists this year and they beat one, drew with the other (seconds away from a win and a Munster title) and lost to the other. IMO Cork are not as good as any of those 3 teams so that record is quite impressive. Considering that they are still backboned by the same players that were winning AI's 8-10 years ago that is quite an achievement. So I'd certainly say they are no worse off.

I also find it ironic that the defenders of the CCB are ignoring the fact that Kilkenny have been very successful at underage over the past 10 years while Cork haven't won a minor or U21 in that time, but in fairness that's Donal Og's fault too I suppose.

Last year pro strike posters were using the 'first year syndrome' to deflect criticism and as Skull pointed out they're trying to deflect criticism now by implying some of us are obsessed, hateful or irrational.

I wouldn't label any of the others as that but you are and no, we didn't use first year syndrome as an excuse. There is always a bedding in process but we wouldn't have to point that out if you didn't blame every Cork defeat, league or championship on the strike.

I could go on but here are some facts.

1. Cork played Tipp, Waterford, Antrim and Kilkenny - won 2, drew 2 (losing in ET) and lost 1. Considering their opponents it isn't a bad record.

2. Reached their first Munster final since before Gerlad's reign.

3. Wouldn't have even been in the semi final if Gerlad had still be manager because most of teh players that played yesterday wouldn't have been there.

While I can accept any man might find players striking as distasteful, how anyone could try and suggest that Cork would be better off if they had faced down the players is beyond me. Have ye not seen how Limerick has panned out?

[orangeman]

Are we really going to rehash this whole argument again? Seriously?

And how did I get tagged as the Cork player man? Reillers et al, get your arses in here and do your job

All I will say is the County Board knew what they were dealing with in terms of a stubborn group of players who would stand up to them, and they engineered that strike back then to put manners on them. Then they threw McCarthy to the wolves in a bid to get an exit strategy at the end.

[/b]

Correct.

But sure Frank is still sitting on the bench beig his usual efficient self. And he will be, even after the protaganists have departed the stage.

[Zulu]

But sure Frank is still sitting on the bench beig his usual efficient self. And he will be, even after the protaganists have departed the stage.

Which I presume you think is a good thing? 

[A Quinn Martin Production]

And how did I get tagged as the Cork player man?  Reillers et al, get your arses in here and do your job

We'll take from here AZ but thanks!

The strike leaders were saying that Ger's approach was holding them back but also that what they were doing was for the good of Cork hurling.

A lie, plain and simple. They were doing for the good of their own (the senior) Cork hurling team.

There were excuses made last year for not measuring up but now they have had a clear run. So where is Cork senior hurling now? Better off or in a worse place?

Cork played all the other AI semi finalists this year and they beat one, drew with the other (seconds away from a win and a Munster title) and lost to the other. IMO Cork are not as good as any of those 3 teams so that record is quite impressive. Considering that they are still backboned by the same players that were winning AI's 8-10 years ago that is quite an achievement. So I'd certainly say they are no worse off.

I also find it ironic that the defenders of the CCB are ignoring the fact that Kilkenny have been very successful at underage over the past 10 years while Cork haven't won a minor or U21 in that time, but in fairness that's Donal Og's fault too I suppose.

Last year pro strike posters were using the 'first year syndrome' to deflect criticism and as Skull pointed out they're trying to deflect criticism now by implying some of us are obsessed, hateful or irrational.

I wouldn't label any of the others as that but you are and no, we didn't use first year syndrome as an excuse. There is always a bedding in process but we wouldn't have to point that out if you didn't blame every Cork defeat, league or championship on the strike.

I could go on but here are some facts.

1. Cork played Tipp, Waterford, Antrim and Kilkenny - won 2, drew 2 (losing in ET) and lost 1. Considering their opponents it isn't a bad record.

2. Reached their first Munster final since before Gerlad's reign.

3. Wouldn't have even been in the semi final if Gerlad had still be manager because most of teh players that played yesterday wouldn't have been there.

While I can accept any man might find players striking as distasteful, how anyone could try and suggest that Cork would be better off if they had faced down the players is beyond me. Have ye not seen how Limerick has panned out?

Cheers Zulu!!