Tommy Murphy Cup R.I.P.

[cornafean]

So they'll do like Offaly have done this year in football and last year in hurling - bitch and moan until they get the rules changed instead of actually looking within their own counties to find out how they ended up in the position in the first place.

The Offaly footballers were in a certain promotion position in Division 4 this year BEFORE Congress took place.

[Hound]

The notion behind the football qualifiers was to give non-traditional counties a guarantee of more than more championship match per year.

Nope, the notion was to give all counties a guarantee of more than one championship match per year.

[Bord na Mona man]

So they'll do like Offaly have done this year in football and last year in hurling - bitch and moan until they get the rules changed instead of actually looking within their own counties to find out how they ended up in the position in the first place.

Despite the popular myth this was never the case.
You'd do well to find any dispatches from the Offaly county board complaining about getting dumped into the Tommy Murphy, never mind any moves to rectify it. It was Wicklow who brought in the motion after all.

On the Division 2 of the hurling last year. The rule was changed because the CCC realised their proposed new league was not going to free up any weekends because a 9 team division meant 9 weeks of league matches.

The notion that Offaly have the power to "bitch and moan" to get rules changed is laughable.

[Bogball XV]

I think that Armaghniac does in fact make a valid point. Fair enough the gap in hurling from Kilkenny to Armagh is probably bigger than between any two football teams but I would estimate that the ability difference between the average Div 4 football county (e.g. Clare) and the average Div 1 county (Tyrone) is very comparable to the difference between the average top hurling county (Limerick) and the average Christy Ring hurling county (Down) yet its very acceptable for Limerick and Down to play in different competitions.

The Tommy Murphy cup was never really about improving division 4 counties. In reality the majority of division 4 counties are predominantly hurling counties (Clare, Tipp, Waterford, Kilkenny, etc). This is the main hindrance in their footballing development and unless something seismic happens in the future these counties are never going to challenge for national honours. In light of these facts the Tommy Murphy cup provided footballers from these counties with a previously unheard of opportunity to win a national title in Croke Park. But instead, its been decided that an extra hammering in the qualifiers is a more enticing proposition than actually winning something.

IMO the only reason the rule is being changed is because occasionally traditional footballing counties like Offaly and Longford will screw up, finding themselves down in the basement and won't like the reality check that they are a bit shit. So they'll do like Offaly have done this year in football and last year in hurling - bitch and moan until they get the rules changed instead of actually looking within their own counties to find out how they ended up in the position in the first place.

Clare beat Kerry in 1993 (?) to win a Munster football, Tipp have been in several Munster finals over the past decade and would have taken one Munster title but for Franlk Murphy and the subs scandal from 2001(?).  Waterford are on the up, I think they took a Munster U21 football title recently.  Kilkenny are the only football county who genuinely will not or have not troubled any of the big guns in the recent past or the forseeable future.

[armaghniac]

Since I am playing devil's advocate here, is it not the case that all of counties who complain about these arrangements have some division in junior, intermediate and senior championship, even though they may have only 40 odd clubs, not many more than the number of counties. Why not give all clubs an equal chance and have them all play in the senior championship?

[Owenmoresider]

Remember this motion came from the county who actually won the TM last year. Says a lot really.

[INDIANA]

the bottom line is this- do the GAA have the right to impose a mickey mouse competition on counties that don't want to play in it? No they don't. None of the counties want to play in it. Now if they want to be ritually annilaited in the qualifiers that is entirely their pregorrative. So why worry about it. The tommy murphy disrupted club fxtures as wel- so what's the bloody difference. It was a sham of a competition and no-one will miss it because not even the counties that won it saw it as an achievement in its own right.

[Solo Run]

Well said, Indiana. You just said in one paragraph what would have taken me a page or two:
- Agreed, Tommy Murphy Cup disrupts fixtures just as much if not more than an extra qualifier round
- Also, when all the likley participants are playing out of their skins to avoid competing in it says enough; its a failed experiment. No shame on its proponents, just didn't work, thats all

The only way a 'secondary' competition would work if the winner was re-entered into All-Ireland series. Different story then, and a real and genuine attempt to strenghen weaker counties.

My thinking, like many others - Provincial System served us well for 100 years. Time to move forward - 32 teams - champion league format.

[Bogball XV]

I think that Armaghniac does in fact make a valid point. Fair enough the gap in hurling from Kilkenny to Armagh is probably bigger than between any two football teams but I would estimate that the ability difference between the average Div 4 football county (e.g. Clare) and the average Div 1 county (Tyrone) is very comparable to the difference between the average top hurling county (Limerick) and the average Christy Ring hurling county (Down) yet its very acceptable for Limerick and Down to play in different competitions.

The Tommy Murphy cup was never really about improving division 4 counties. In reality the majority of division 4 counties are predominantly hurling counties (Clare, Tipp, Waterford, Kilkenny, etc). This is the main hindrance in their footballing development and unless something seismic happens in the future these counties are never going to challenge for national honours. In light of these facts the Tommy Murphy cup provided footballers from these counties with a previously unheard of opportunity to win a national title in Croke Park. But instead, its been decided that an extra hammering in the qualifiers is a more enticing proposition than actually winning something.

IMO the only reason the rule is being changed is because occasionally traditional footballing counties like Offaly and Longford will screw up, finding themselves down in the basement and won't like the reality check that they are a bit shit. So they'll do like Offaly have done this year in football and last year in hurling - bitch and moan until they get the rules changed instead of actually looking within their own counties to find out how they ended up in the position in the first place.

Clare beat Kerry in 1993 (?) to win a Munster football, Tipp have been in several Munster finals over the past decade and would have taken one Munster title but for Franlk Murphy and the subs scandal from 2001(?).  Waterford are on the up, I think they took a Munster U21 football title recently.  Kilkenny are the only football county who genuinely will not or have not troubled any of the big guns in the recent past or the forseeable future.

Are you joking? Everyone knows Clare were a once off almost 2 decades ago (it was 92 not 93), Tipp only got to Munster finals when Kerry and Cork were on the same side of the draw, and since when did beating 2 or 3 of the worst division 4 counties constitute being 'on the way up'. These counties had one opportunity to win a national title and they decided that they didn't want it.

The arrogance of these new football superpowers is amazing - it's not so long ago that Armagh were in the nether regions of the leagues.  As I also pointed out earlier, Derry in 2004 would have been Div 4, they got to the All Ireland semi via the back door all the same.  This year two from Limerick, Sligo, Leitrim and Longford are going down, Limerick have handed out several hammerings to Cork in recent years and again should have taken a munster, Sligo are connaught champions, Leitrim have put up many creditable qualifier performances and Longford of course have done likewise.
Regardless of who tipp beat en-route to their munster final, they still managed a draw with cork when they got there.  I just don't see why you would deny these players the same opportunities that everyone else gets, there's feck all saving in terms of 'club' weekends, so what's the problem?

[armaghniac]

Neither Armagh or Derry have been in a real basement of football for a long time. For obvious reasons, almost any Ulster county is well ahead of those counties where hurling is the main GAA sport. Comments about being in Div 4 one year might reflect that it is inappropriate to use one years league performance as the basis of a teams classification. The point is BogBall is that the extra game doesn't only come on the Div 4 county it comes on every other county in the qualifiers,  so if Derry are to reach the AI SF it will be a long road. Ulster teams are very likely to have such a long road, for example Donegal v Derry this year is going to dump a top 10 team in to the qualifiers. With a seeded Munster draw Kerry won't have to worry about these extra rounds. That said if Armagh had an extra round game before playing Derry last year we might have beaten you!

[Bogball XV]

I know what yous are saying lads, but the point remains that for the likes of Longford or Leitrim, taking a big scalp is as much as they know they can achieve, but the feeling that they and their county will get from that would far outweigh the benefits any run in the Tommy Murphy could ever have.  We've got to give them their chance too, that, or introduce a transfer system.

[SLIGONIAN]

Leitriim are hard to beat in CSFC and if they had a bit more composure they would of taken Galway last yr and who knows what would have happened. They wont be far away again this yr in Connaght. A provincial is a realistic prospect for them. The TM cup was more about getting teams a game in croker that wouldnt usually get the chance ie leitrim 2 yrs I think were the last of the 32 to get a game in the new croker. So now thats done and dusted they are dead right to scrap it.

The football championship is tight, most teams can win a provincial if they get there act together. Like take us for example we seem to underperform in the league every year and that could get us in to the mess that TM cup brings this summer. League and championship should of never been related. Although even after poor league we could still beat Mayo in CSFC and avoid it even if we dont pull off the great escape. I wouldnt put it past us.

The qualifier system is the best solution so far and is bridging the gap slowly. We benefited from it hugely.

[believebelive]

According to the person who proposed the Wicklow motion at congress the motion was driven by the inter county players from Wicklow. I accept that when teams get to the Tommy Murphy Cup final they do put in an effort to win the game but if you look at the majority of teams preparation for the competition in recent years it is clear that there is little enthusiasm for the competition among county players.
If the players do not want it then why should it remain? I find it a little arrogant of posters from stronger counties to purport to know what is better for weaker counties. If the players in those weaker counties think that it belittles them further then the competition is pointless.

[cornafean]

I was amazed last night to read this, from Monday's Independent report from Congress

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/tommy-murphy-cup-dead-in-the-water-says-gaa-boss-1346829.html

GAA Director-General, Paraic Duffy, warned that allowing those teams back into the championship would have a negative impact on the local club scene as it would use up an extra weekend and add to already hectic schedules.

Duffy also said that it would be naive to expect that a Division Four team would start winning championship games and questioned why change was being proposed so soon.

Did Paraic Duffy really say this? Did he mean it? Does he really, really believe that it is "naive" to expect, for example, Offaly, Antrim or Wicklow to make any impact whatsoever in this year's Championship? Did any of the representatives from the Division 4 counties respond to his comments?

[AZOffaly]

The last time Offaly won a Leinster Championship (in 1997 when Meath, Kildare and Dublin were all competitive) they finished the league with promotion from Division 4.