HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[Applesisapples]

Is there any actual possibility of discussion on how a potential new Ireland might look, or is that not possible without a frank honest discussion on the past?

The fantasy of a glorious "new" Ireland is based on the fantastical premise that Unionists will simply fall in and accept it

I dare say some Protestant Unionists had this same fantasy about Irish Catholics in the six counties

Some will accept it

Many will not

And thus the six counties are destined to always be afflicted with division and turmoil

Doesn't matter which jurisdiction they're under, they will always be afflicted because it's a classic territorial dispute where one section of the population believes it is an inherent state of nature for the territory which makes up the six counties to be part of one state

And another section of the population believes it is an inherent state of nature for the territory which makes up the six counties to be part of a different state

You can't square that, somebody has to lose

The only alternative is that people learn to forget about Irish nationalism and British nationalism and think about forging a society that works for all

The majority of voters in the six counties vote for parties for whom that is not a priority

The best thing that could happen to NI is for every union Jack and tricolour in the place to be burned

Your conclusion only leaves one loser though. Us as per standard. It reads of accept your lot northern nationalists, maybe this is not your intention.

When competing nationalisms divide a society everybody loses

What's your solution?

A functioning society is more important than fwegs

Good man. Fwegs? My solution is lay out how an all island health system would look, how education would look, taxation, housing. How are a minority incorporated and given absolute equality. What fwegs and emblems would look like. Giving those whose culture is orangism and parades etc assurances this can continue in a safe manner. East West copereration. What's yours ? The status quo?
.

My solution is that people in NI vote out the extremists on both sides and elect people who will work together to create an equal society

A united Ireland will come when it's ready to come

And it's not remotely ready to come yet

What will happen is that as the sabre rattling about a border poll ramps up, the extremists on both sides will benefit more and more because both sides will retreat more and more into competing nationalisms

Irish nationalists will retreat towards SF, British nationalists will retreat towards the DUP

The centre, whatever is there of it, will not hold

Vote out the DUP and SF and elect SDLP, Alliance, PBP and moderate Unionists

Sorry Sid, I don't know from where you hail but you are posting facile errant nonsense that shows no understanding of the 6 counties or the experience of nationalists in a hostile state. There is a reason why SF are so popular and it has to do with their effective delivery on the ground for people in need. The SDLP had years of a head start but ignored working class communities. Alliance is built on the highly effective foundation of Naomi Long, and a soft unionism that does not like the DUP or the UUP which is now DUP Lite.

Having said all of that and not to totally forget my lived experience I want to see a civilised conversation that does not harp back to the perceived injustices of the past. Nationalists are capable for doing that, our problem is a rump of unionism that sees any change as sellout.

[Snapchap]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

[yellowcard]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

I think if SF hadn't collapsed the assembly when they did, a lot of their voter base would have been asking questions of them. There was a constant denial of rights and obstructionism by the DUP and nationalists were generally just fed up but even at that I still think it would have muddled on but for the RHI scandal. It was the straw that broke the camels back and other party leaders had also called for Arlene Fosters head at the time. In fact it is a miracle how she has managed to ride out the storm and still be in the position of party leader.   

[dublin7]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

[Applesisapples]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

like Sid you display a lack of understanding as to how the NI executive works. In effect both sides can veto. DUP use theirs to block abortion reform, language equal marriage etc... SF have used the veto on far fewer occasions. A border poll can not create any more division than already exists. At the end of the day we in the north have a democratic right to decide our future, you are pedal the same line as FF that only unionist votes matter.

[Armagh18]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

If you think you'll hear any threat of violence from the Republican side you're even more deluded than I thought.

[dublin7]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

If you think you'll hear any threat of violence from the Republican side you're even more deluded than I thought.

If the loyalist paramiliatires end the ceasefire you're saying the IRA won't? Strange how you think I'm deluded. I'll be less insulting and call you naive

[Angelo]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

like Sid you display a lack of understanding as to how the NI executive works. In effect both sides can veto. DUP use theirs to block abortion reform, language equal marriage etc... SF have used the veto on far fewer occasions. A border poll can not create any more division than already exists. At the end of the day we in the north have a democratic right to decide our future, you are pedal the same line as FF that only unionist votes matter.

Free Staters love to pontificate but don't seem to have the intelligence to get informed before commenting.

It's typical Dublin7, make ignorant comments and be corrected before changing course to make more ignorance comment sand be corrected again.

This is the type of idiot you get down south who return FFG into office.

Oddly enough that's the same FFG government who refused to discuss going into govt down south with SF while pontificating at them to do business with the DUP up north.

[Taylor]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

If you think you'll hear any threat of violence from the Republican side you're even more deluded than I thought.

If the loyalist paramiliatires end the ceasefire you're saying the IRA won't? Strange how you think I'm deluded. I'll be less insulting and call you naive

This is the point I made on another thread.

If Loyalists start to attack and God forbid injure/kill catholics do people think there will be no retaliation?

[Angelo]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

If you think you'll hear any threat of violence from the Republican side you're even more deluded than I thought.

If the loyalist paramiliatires end the ceasefire you're saying the IRA won't? Strange how you think I'm deluded. I'll be less insulting and call you naive

This is the point I made on another thread.

If Loyalists start to attack and God forbid injure/kill catholics do people think there will be no retaliation?

Do you genuinely think loyalism cares enough about the union to kill without immunity to do so?

They don't have an RUC bungling investigations for them anymore.

[Snapchap]

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass?

What did they do to get the assembly back up and running? Are you a bit slow? They made a deal in Feb 18. The DUP reneged on it because they brought it to the Orange Order and UDA, who told them to scrap it. I'm still waiting on your to acknowledge that, and explain how it was as much SF's fault at the DUPs.
What would you suggest SF should have done, since you hold them equally to blame? Bow to the will of the UDA and give up on a Language Act?

Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

Arlene is still there because an inquiry didn't recommend her stepping down. SF provided her with the opportunity to temporarily step aside pending said inquiry. Most rational people saw that as SF trying desperately to avoid an assembly collapse. Not you though, apparently.
And as for the Irish Language Act, maybe you haven't been aware, but only last week, Arlene Foster gave an update in the Assembly that the legislation in on track for implementation by next May. And didn't she even say 'Sin é' at then end.
Besides, if you thought that the DUP were still dragging their feet on commitments made such as a language act, RHI etc, then why on earth would you be holding SF as equally culpable for calling the DUP out on it.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them.

I gave you a comprehensive list of commitments that the DUP failed to live up to/actions they took/refused to take before the collapse. Since it clearly went straight over your head, I'll jog your memory:
- They reneged on Language Act commitments promised as preconditions to power sharing, back at St Andrews
- They reneged on the enactment of a Bill of Rights as was agreed in 1998 in the GFA
- They blocked same sex marriage, despite the majority of MLAs being in support of it
- They took £500m of tax payers money and burned it in wood pellet boilers and then refused to see their leader step aside temporarily pending an investigation
- They blocked funding for legacy inquests
Since you have come to the simpleton's conclusion that both sides were as bad as each other, then maybe you can furnish us with a list of commitments made that SF also refused to live up to while in government? Or if you cannot, are you arguing that SF, and by extension, northern nationalism, should have just stayed in government and accepted the above list of behaviour (and whatever more that would have come) from the DUP?

In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities.

A border poll will only be called when the British Sec of State feels it is likely to result in constitutional change. Do you think he's going to call one unless the result is a fairly certain yes? And demographic, economic and political trends all point to that as the inevitable result at some point in the future.

Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

Or maybe people just want the GFA to be respected, and to not have the goalposts moved by people who are starting to worry that a reunification vote might actually happen. I'll ask you again: if a border poll passes by 50.1%, should it be deemed invalid?

[yellowcard]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

Thankfully this type of attitude didn't exist in the mid 1990's or I doubt we'd have had ever seen the GFA.

You seem to have a 'sit on our hands and do nothing' policy cos it's not our problem. It does nothing to dispel the sort of stereotypical 'I'm alright Jack' accusation thrown at southerners when it comes to the Border Poll issue and the rights of nationalists in the north.

[sid waddell]

A border poll can not create any more division than already exists.

If you believe that, I have some magic beans to sell you

[seafoid]

The Brits may want to dump NI. This is one thing that keeps Unionists awake at night. Brexit is English nationalism,  not Unionism. The DUP didn't understand that. The Tories shafted them.

[dublin7]

3 years this stalemate went on, not a few weeks or months, but 3 years.

We can count in the six counties too. The fact that it went on for three years doesn't alter my point, which is that it is simplistic, ill-informed nonsense to suggest that SF and the DUP were equally responsible for the collapse.

If hadn't been for the Irish and British governments getting involved and forcing the main parties in the north to compromise there'd be no assembly today. Do the DUP and SF agree on anything except that they disagree on everything?

And again, I remind you that the parties had an agreement made ONE year after the collapse and had a draft text of the deal produced, only for the DUP to renege on it solely because they had to run it past the Orange Order and the UDA, who promptly told them to tear it up. Of course, that's something you don't seem to want to talk about, presumably because it puts a big huge dent in your "both as bad as eachother" horses**t.

Both parties view each with hostility that will only grow if a border poll is called. Your naively think if a united Ireland is voted for the DUP should suck it up and say nothing as that's democracy. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. If that's the campaign strategy it's doomed for failure

The consent principle was in the agreement because it was a demand of unionism and agreed to as a concession/compromise from nationalism. Do you think nationalists would have agreed to it if they believed it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because government/parties would act in bad faith and attempt to re-write it down the line? If there is no consent principle, there is no GFA. Nobody is suggesting that the DUP will suck it up, but again, the consent principle was a demand from unionism as part of an agreement that they then signed up to, and as such have committed to accepting the result of any poll. Just as nationalism will. Are you trying to suggest that a border poll passing by 50.1% should be deemed invalid?

Fine SF are blameless and it's all the DUPs fault.

Sarcasm? Apologies. I thought I was having a discussion with an adult.

Would I be correct in saying that Martin McGuinness provided Arlene Foster the opportunity to stand aside pending investigation, so as to avoid the Assembly's collapse? Maybe you could tell us all how SF were as much to blame as the DUP for the collapse then? Not to mention for the failure to get the deal across the line in Feb 2018?

For 3 years what exacty did SF AND the DUP do to solve the impass? Major issues were Arlene & the Irish language act and as far as I can tell Arlene is still there and the Irish language is still not sorted. It achieved nothing.

It amazes me how you believe its all the DUPs fault and nothing to do with SF. The gas thing is die hard DUP supporters will say it's all SF fault and nothing to do with them. In terms of the border poll itself I see it failing in north and all it will achieve is create ever more division between the two communities. Maybe that's what some individuals on both sides want? Unionist threats recently show they're willing to play that card so how long before you start hearing similar noises from the other side?

Thankfully this type of attitude didn't exist in the mid 1990's or I doubt we'd have had ever seen the GFA.

You seem to have a 'sit on our hands and do nothing' policy cos it's not our problem. It does nothing to dispel the sort of stereotypical 'I'm alright Jack' accusation thrown at southerners when it comes to the Border Poll issue and the rights of nationalists in the north.

I think for a peaceful united Ireland both SF and the DUP need to compromise and come to some sort of agreement before calling a border poll, but that's not something the DUP seem willing to do and based on the comments for some SF supporters on here that's not something they're willing to do either. I don't see how anyone in the south can help with that.