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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: RedHand88 on March 20, 2021, 02:56:58 PM

Title: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: RedHand88 on March 20, 2021, 02:56:58 PM
Important to get a feel for both jurisdictions as ultimately both have to pass individually as per the GFA.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 20, 2021, 03:17:59 PM
Northern 1 will be skewed as I doubt if there's many Unionists or Alliance people on here?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2021, 03:46:44 PM
I see Angelo has voted  :D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Mario on March 20, 2021, 03:53:46 PM
I don't think the sample population for this poll will tell us anything. A predominantly Ulster based gaa forum favour independence. Same with the GAA fans in the south, probably to a lesser degree.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 20, 2021, 04:08:32 PM
Northern 1 will be skewed as I doubt if there's many Unionists or Alliance people on here?
[/b]
I am in favour of a UI and would hope to vote positively if a referendum poll is held in my lifetime but, as the old saying puts it, the devil is in the detail.
It's quite understandable that Nationalist posters on the board seem to think that a single vote majority north of the border is all that's needed to get the job done and dusted, but I wouldn't be so sure. There's 300+ years of past history to be put aside before there's a realistic chance  of a positive referendum outcome  will become a reality.
I think most citizens of the Republic are in favour okay but are genuinely afraid that sectarian violence will erupt again and will spill over into the south.
I am concerned that a sizeable number of Nationalists/Sinn Feiners seem far too eager to repay with interest all the insults and humiliation  to their cause right back to 1690 and beyond.

There must be a mutual acceptance before the polling booths open, that past history cannot be allowed to determine future policy. That's some ask.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: RedHand88 on March 20, 2021, 04:25:03 PM
Northern 1 will be skewed as I doubt if there's many Unionists or Alliance people on here?

True but it would give a view of the Northern Nationalist population at the very least.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: omochain on March 20, 2021, 04:41:12 PM
Not sure if I am a Northerner or a Southerner. Lived in both before going overseas. Because I was born on the Northern side of the border I voted as a northerner. Truly I have never seen myself as either. But then I was born just south of Keady.😜
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: screenexile on March 20, 2021, 04:44:25 PM
Would be interested in the views of those who voted no North and South?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Kidder81 on March 20, 2021, 04:52:08 PM
Would be interested to know what it would look like, healthcare etc

Nobody knows
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 20, 2021, 04:58:30 PM
Would be interested in how many of the Yes (Northerner) are "with reservations" or would living "free" in a UI trump all reservations about finances, health service etc.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 20, 2021, 05:12:58 PM
Would be interested in how many of the Yes (Northerner) are "with reservations" or would living "free" in a UI trump all reservations about finances, health service etc.

I think you just have to dig in for a few years and things will level out, as they do when it happens.

Germany being one example
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: snoopdog on March 20, 2021, 05:31:34 PM
My view on a border poll is quite simplistic really. If any man or woman who currently calls themselves Irish votes against a united Ireland then are they really Irish?? Not in my book.
 I've lived in the south long enough to know that most southerners dont really care about the north.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 20, 2021, 06:10:25 PM
Be interested to see who voted no Northerner.

Probably just some Dublin7 trolling.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 20, 2021, 06:33:27 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 20, 2021, 06:54:06 PM
Hopefully a few posters here will NOT be involved it trying to persuade people to vote for a UI in the Referendum.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 20, 2021, 07:34:28 PM
Would be interested in how many of the Yes (Northerner) are "with reservations" or would living "free" in a UI trump all reservations about finances, health service etc.
There was an interesting (two-part) article on slugger regarding “planning” apartheid with regards infrastructure in the north. It sets out the obvious disparity between east and west but also details further the disproportionate investment that has been made throughout our wee colony’s history under unionist rule.
https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/03/18/tackling-northern-irelands-infrastructure-apartheid-part-1-the-problem/

Anyway, huge scope for investment once unity happens. Good driver for the economy with all the new and overdue rail links, motorways, dual carriageways and other infrastructure projects.

I also read on Twitter that the tories have sold off another 37 NHS surgeries, something the furhrer Bojo said he wouldn’t do. NHS is slowly being privatised anyway, so the thought of losing it is becoming less worrying.

I also think it would be nice knowing that my taxes don’t go towards nuclear war heads or a shady family of mutli-millionaires...
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: RedHand88 on March 20, 2021, 07:42:12 PM
So at the minute it's 66% for southerners and 91% for northeners.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 20, 2021, 09:01:07 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 20, 2021, 09:13:54 PM
I'm a Yes but realise it comes with issues for the South as the North is massively reliant on cash from London and has a public sector making up about 30% of all employment.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: imtommygunn on March 20, 2021, 09:15:53 PM
Boris will probably screw us out of stuff like that anyway.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 20, 2021, 09:41:02 PM
I'm a Yes but realise it comes with issues for the South as the North is massively reliant on cash from London and has a public sector making up about 30% of all employment.

There needs to hard bargaining to ensure that London cannot just f**k off and leave the place in a mess.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 20, 2021, 09:46:13 PM
Utterly vital in the success of a new state is resources and services that were privatised need to come back under the control of the state.

Utilities
Roads
Health
Housing
Etc
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on March 20, 2021, 10:23:15 PM
I'm a Yes but realise it comes with issues for the South as the North is massively reliant on cash from London and has a public sector making up about 30% of all employment.

There needs to hard bargaining to ensure that London cannot just f**k off and leave the place in a mess.

True, but at least we know they stick to their agreements once made.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2021, 11:41:53 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
That should be the campaign slogan

Maybe throw in "if you don't vote Yes you're a West Brit **** who should be shot" as well

Marketing material like that will be sure to win over the middle ground
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2021, 12:25:04 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
That should be the campaign slogan

Maybe throw in "if you don't vote Yes you're a West Brit **** who should be shot" as well

Marketing material like that will be sure to win over the middle ground

You’re on roll sid, the whiskey must be flowing
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 01:34:58 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
That should be the campaign slogan

Maybe throw in "if you don't vote Yes you're a West Brit **** who should be shot" as well

Marketing material like that will be sure to win over the middle ground
You are on song tonight, sid.
 Maithiú
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 02:10:06 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 02:10:59 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
That should be the campaign slogan

Maybe throw in "if you don't vote Yes you're a West Brit **** who should be shot" as well

Marketing material like that will be sure to win over the middle ground
Good man, Sid.
I agree.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 07:19:00 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2021, 08:13:38 AM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 21, 2021, 08:16:56 AM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.

Rejoining?

This isn't about rejoining.

This is about a new and free United Ireland.

There seems to be this arrogance from free staters that they are letting us in for some reason.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: snoopdog on March 21, 2021, 09:41:09 AM
Any party rushing a referendum is on a road to failure.  I think 20 years is realistic and discussions should begin on a blueprint on what a new ireland would look like. It is always going to hit people in the pocket. But health service is the big one.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tubberman on March 21, 2021, 09:52:12 AM
I think each nordie should have to apply to join individually.
Weed out the trouble makers.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Louther on March 21, 2021, 10:00:32 AM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.

Rejoining?

This isn't about rejoining.

This is about a new and free United Ireland.

There seems to be this arrogance from free staters that they are letting us in for some reason.

I’m sure if you get a platform to speak on the subject like the above it will be a done deal.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: ned on March 21, 2021, 10:39:34 AM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.

Rejoining?

This isn't about rejoining.

This is about a new and free United Ireland.

There seems to be this arrogance from free staters that they are letting us in for some reason.

A new and free UI is all well and good but I'm all for Larne and it's environs remaining a British enclave like Gibraltar.  Otherwise all bets are off.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 21, 2021, 11:07:56 AM
Excellent idea Ned.
Sammy Wilson could be their Chief Minister😃.
As regards "free staters(sic)" letting "Nordies" in....
Of course that will be the case as we have to vote on it too.
The new AI entity won't be a 1 party SF dictatorship as envisaged by some.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: charlieTully on March 21, 2021, 11:10:56 AM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.


Right seafoid that's you banned from county down. 😒
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 21, 2021, 11:18:12 AM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.

Rejoining?

This isn't about rejoining.

This is about a new and free United Ireland.

There seems to be this arrogance from free staters that they are letting us in for some reason.

You seemed to have missed the bit where we have a vote to decide if we actually want ye

If we do

There will have be a holding pen for your ilk on the border followed by a re education camp to introduce you to gainful employment and not the notion of a socialist ie Handout Republic .
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: dublin7 on March 21, 2021, 11:37:21 AM
Excellent idea Ned.
Sammy Wilson could be their Chief Minister😃.
As regards "free staters(sic)" letting "Nordies" in....
Of course that will be the case as we have to vote on it too.
The new AI entity won't be a 1 party SF dictatorship as envisaged by some.

SF are the self proclaimed only party interested in a united Ireland. Once hat's achieved I assume they'll disband.

That's a great reason to vote for a united Ireland on it's own
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 21, 2021, 11:43:37 AM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.

Rejoining?

This isn't about rejoining.

This is about a new and free United Ireland.

There seems to be this arrogance from free staters that they are letting us in for some reason.

You seemed to have missed the bit where we have a vote to decide if we actually want ye

If we do

There will have be a holding pen for your ilk on the border followed by a re education camp to introduce you to gainful employment and not the notion of a socialist ie Handout Republic .

No.

The problem with Free Staters like yourself is that you seem to be under the illusion that ye are going to be housing northerners.

It's about a the cessation of two failed statelets, one denigrated by sectarianism and oppression, the other by political corruption and private business interests.

Your comments say it all, you have utter contempt for nothern nationalists but this is going to happen in spite of how much you resist. The days of a FFG dominated FS are numbered, they have destroyed future generations of young people and they won't vote for those parties any more. Putting the bankers, Larry Goodman, Denis O'Brien and the property developers ahead of the citizen has brought it to this endgame.

It's the DUP/FF/FG who are actually accelerating this inevitability despite the fact none of these parties wanting it.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 21, 2021, 11:44:46 AM
Excellent idea Ned.
Sammy Wilson could be their Chief Minister😃.
As regards "free staters(sic)" letting "Nordies" in....
Of course that will be the case as we have to vote on it too.
The new AI entity won't be a 1 party SF dictatorship as envisaged by some.

SF are the self proclaimed only party interested in a united Ireland. Once hat's achieved I assume they'll disband.

That's a great reason to vote for a united Ireland on it's own

They will have delivered their mandate if they have delivered a United Ireland.

It's important then for the 32 to move to a more leftist society. Not where FFG can service wealthy billionaires at the detriment of its citizens.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Armagh18 on March 21, 2021, 12:24:12 PM
My view on a border poll is quite simplistic really. If any man or woman who currently calls themselves Irish votes against a united Ireland then are they really Irish?? Not in my book.
 I've lived in the south long enough to know that most southerners dont really care about the north.
Nail on head. If you’re voting no you are not Irish.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tubberman on March 21, 2021, 12:39:06 PM
My view on a border poll is quite simplistic really. If any man or woman who currently calls themselves Irish votes against a united Ireland then are they really Irish?? Not in my book.
 I've lived in the south long enough to know that most southerners dont really care about the north.
Nail on head. If you’re voting no you are not Irish.

What are you?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 21, 2021, 12:56:09 PM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.

Rejoining?

This isn't about rejoining.

This is about a new and free United Ireland.

There seems to be this arrogance from free staters that they are letting us in for some reason.

You seemed to have missed the bit where we have a vote to decide if we actually want ye

If we do

There will have be a holding pen for your ilk on the border followed by a re education camp to introduce you to gainful employment and not the notion of a socialist ie Handout Republic .

No.

The problem with Free Staters like yourself is that you seem to be under the illusion that ye are going to be housing northerners.

It's about a the cessation of two failed statelets, one denigrated by sectarianism and oppression, the other by political corruption and private business interests.

Your comments say it all, you have utter contempt for nothern nationalists but this is going to happen in spite of how much you resist. The days of a FFG dominated FS are numbered, they have destroyed future generations of young people and they won't vote for those parties any more. Putting the bankers, Larry Goodman, Denis O'Brien and the property developers ahead of the citizen has brought it to this endgame.

It's the DUP/FF/FG who are actually accelerating this inevitability despite the fact none of these parties wanting it.


Socialism is great till you run out of others peoples money

I’ve contempt for no one on here bar you.

Actually a SF led government in the Republic would soften their cough when they  have to implement the Austerity that’s coming down the tracks 

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 21, 2021, 01:18:40 PM
In any All Ireland set up the State will be run by those elected by the voters.
That will rule out loonylefties being in any kind of power.
If Sinn Féin still exist then they will be a Centrist catch all populist party. They're already heading that way with their 2 abortion positions, not to mention their everything free but cut taxes too.
Calling the 26Cos a "failed statelet(sic)" is the language of the 1950s and is now only used by brainwashed eejits.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 21, 2021, 01:25:20 PM
In any All Ireland set up the State will be run by those elected by the voters.
That will rule out loonylefties being in any kind of power.
If Sinn Féin still exist then they will be a Centrist catch all populist party. They're already heading that way with their 2 abortion positions, not to mention their everything free but cut taxes too.
Calling the 26Cos a "failed statelet(sic)" is the language of the 1950s and is now only used by brainwashed eejits.

Poor Angelo

He has more in common with the likes of Jim Alister.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 01:39:36 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 21, 2021, 01:48:36 PM
How many "nationalist Nordies" will vote NO because of their pockets?
Then there was the genius (forget his handle) on this board who suggested having higher taxes in the 26 to pay for better health care in the 6 ::)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 21, 2021, 01:51:50 PM
The Free Stater partitionists getting very testy about calling out the inherent corruption associated with both parties who have governed over their state since its shady inception.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2021, 01:56:58 PM
It should be done in stages with Fermanagh rejoining first  because Fermanagh had voted allegiance to Dáil Éireann pre 1921.

Throne would be next , then Derry, followed by Armagh
Maybe Down could be digested in stages.

And Antrim, with Larne at the end.


Right seafoid that's you banned from county down. 😒
GRMA Charlie


https://youtu.be/mkTI1L2Ap3s


Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on March 21, 2021, 02:12:08 PM
How many "nationalist Nordies" will vote NO because of their pockets?
Then there was the genius (forget his handle) on this board who suggested having higher taxes in the 26 to pay for better health care in the 6 ::)

almost all of them, a border poll in the north would be thrashed, god knows why unionists are so scared of it  ::)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Substandard on March 21, 2021, 02:47:39 PM
Personally,  I would vote yes, but there is a myriad of issues that would need to be addressed,  and I'd imagine any reunification process would need to be phased in over a number of years and stages. 
I think that the vision any of us have of how a United Ireland would work or look depends on our ages, influences and experience.
I know that while I was in school (a long way from the border, and violence in the North was a regular feature in the news), there would always have been a pretty significant tacit support, but for us nationalist and Republicans were interchangeable.  Up the ra was familiar graffiti and sentiments.  I'm not interested in debating the rights or wrongs of this- Sid and Angelo are both far better equipped to do this than me, but it always struck me as somewhere between odd and sinister the portrayal in the media even from when I was a teen: it was overwhelmingly anti- Sinn Féin and the IRA, but there never seemed to be near as much about the UDA or UFF.  I think that's a fair observation, but I don't have anything to back it up, so maybe I'm wrong.
Again as a teen my Dad started doing business with a few different lads from Tyrone,  Armagh and Belfast for a while.  It was fascinating to hear them describe day to day life, and regular encounters with the RUC and the British army, and on one or two trips with him to that part of the world I saw it for myself- in what world would it be considered normal to be questioned by a soldier with a gun pointing into the car?  It got me thinking at an early age that we were living in a complete bubble by comparison, and not only were we being insulated from all this, we were being conditioned by the media and the other political parties: I always found it baffling how it seemed that the powers that be seemed so eager to condemn anything Sinn Fein or nationalist, and why?  Because we were so dependent on the UK economically, we wouldn't want to be seen or heard to cause offence?  There are so many strands and layers- I haven't the time, or the required knowledge or comprehension to go into so many things here.
I have noticed over the past 20 years that the school environment and attitude towards the North has changed a lot.  Kids growing up now have other things that take up their time and attention.  Up the ra is very rare, either written or said.  So I'd imagine the concept of a United Ireland or vote, and the thought processes for people in their 20s or teens, and for those of us old enough to remember' the Troubles' are different, possibly very different.
The entire concept is big, bigger than a couple of paragraphs on a chat forum.  That's my tuppence worth- I don't post too often, but I read a lot of threads every day.  I try to keep an open mind, and I used to find this forum great because of the variety of views or links that I could read, and sometimes take on board for my own point of view.  I know very little,  and understand less, and I'm slow to make my mind up because there's always the other side of the story to consider.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: grounded on March 21, 2021, 02:58:03 PM
Personally,  I would vote yes, but there is a myriad of issues that would need to be addressed,  and I'd imagine any reunification process would need to be phased in over a number of years and stages. 
I think that the vision any of us have of how a United Ireland would work or look depends on our ages, influences and experience.
I know that while I was in school (a long way from the border, and violence in the North was a regular feature in the news), there would always have been a pretty significant tacit support, but for us nationalist and Republicans were interchangeable.  Up the ra was familiar graffiti and sentiments.  I'm not interested in debating the rights or wrongs of this- Sid and Angelo are both far better equipped to do this than me, but it always struck me as somewhere between odd and sinister the portrayal in the media even from when I was a teen: it was overwhelmingly anti- Sinn Féin and the IRA, but there never seemed to be near as much about the UDA or UFF.  I think that's a fair observation, but I don't have anything to back it up, so maybe I'm wrong.
Again as a teen my Dad started doing business with a few different lads from Tyrone,  Armagh and Belfast for a while.  It was fascinating to hear them describe day to day life, and regular encounters with the RUC and the British army, and on one or two trips with him to that part of the world I saw it for myself- in what world would it be considered normal to be questioned by a soldier with a gun pointing into the car?  It got me thinking at an early age that we were living in a complete bubble by comparison, and not only were we being insulated from all this, we were being conditioned by the media and the other political parties: I always found it baffling how it seemed that the powers that be seemed so eager to condemn anything Sinn Fein or nationalist, and why?  Because we were so dependent on the UK economically, we wouldn't want to be seen or heard to cause offence?  There are so many strands and layers- I haven't the time, or the required knowledge or comprehension to go into so many things here.
I have noticed over the past 20 years that the school environment and attitude towards the North has changed a lot.  Kids growing up now have other things that take up their time and attention.  Up the ra is very rare, either written or said.  So I'd imagine the concept of a United Ireland or vote, and the thought processes for people in their 20s or teens, and for those of us old enough to remember' the Troubles' are different, possibly very different.
The entire concept is big, bigger than a couple of paragraphs on a chat forum.  That's my tuppence worth- I don't post too often, but I read a lot of threads every day.  I try to keep an open mind, and I used to find this forum great because of the variety of views or links that I could read, and sometimes take on board for my own point of view.  I know very little,  and understand less, and I'm slow to make my mind up because there's always the other side of the story to consider.

A reasonable well thought out honest post. You'll not last long on here!
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 03:14:49 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 21, 2021, 03:27:57 PM
Personally,  I would vote yes, but there is a myriad of issues that would need to be addressed,  and I'd imagine any reunification process would need to be phased in over a number of years and stages. 
I think that the vision any of us have of how a United Ireland would work or look depends on our ages, influences and experience.
I know that while I was in school (a long way from the border, and violence in the North was a regular feature in the news), there would always have been a pretty significant tacit support, but for us nationalist and Republicans were interchangeable.  Up the ra was familiar graffiti and sentiments.  I'm not interested in debating the rights or wrongs of this- Sid and Angelo are both far better equipped to do this than me, but it always struck me as somewhere between odd and sinister the portrayal in the media even from when I was a teen: it was overwhelmingly anti- Sinn Féin and the IRA, but there never seemed to be near as much about the UDA or UFF.  I think that's a fair observation, but I don't have anything to back it up, so maybe I'm wrong.
Again as a teen my Dad started doing business with a few different lads from Tyrone,  Armagh and Belfast for a while.  It was fascinating to hear them describe day to day life, and regular encounters with the RUC and the British army, and on one or two trips with him to that part of the world I saw it for myself- in what world would it be considered normal to be questioned by a soldier with a gun pointing into the car?  It got me thinking at an early age that we were living in a complete bubble by comparison, and not only were we being insulated from all this, we were being conditioned by the media and the other political parties: I always found it baffling how it seemed that the powers that be seemed so eager to condemn anything Sinn Fein or nationalist, and why?  Because we were so dependent on the UK economically, we wouldn't want to be seen or heard to cause offence?  There are so many strands and layers- I haven't the time, or the required knowledge or comprehension to go into so many things here.
I have noticed over the past 20 years that the school environment and attitude towards the North has changed a lot.  Kids growing up now have other things that take up their time and attention.  Up the ra is very rare, either written or said.  So I'd imagine the concept of a United Ireland or vote, and the thought processes for people in their 20s or teens, and for those of us old enough to remember' the Troubles' are different, possibly very different.
The entire concept is big, bigger than a couple of paragraphs on a chat forum.  That's my tuppence worth- I don't post too often, but I read a lot of threads every day.  I try to keep an open mind, and I used to find this forum great because of the variety of views or links that I could read, and sometimes take on board for my own point of view.  I know very little,  and understand less, and I'm slow to make my mind up because there's always the other side of the story to consider.

A very good post.

You can see how brainwashed some free staters are by the contributions on here.

Rossfan and Dublin7 being prime examples of the type of brain donor commentary you expect. All slurs, little substance.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 21, 2021, 03:30:07 PM
I got pilloried on another chat for saying that as a nationalist I need a lot of reassurance before I would commit to yes. This is mainly because of my age and stage in life. If I were younger I would enthusiastically take the chance. I would need to be sure that my health needs and retirement both of which are rushing at me quicker than I'd like , are taken care off. I make no apology for that. Secondly the threat from loyalist crime gangs would need to be addressed. I also would not wish my experience of growing up in a state that denied and denies my right to be Irish visited on those who feel that they are British.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 21, 2021, 03:37:43 PM
The new All Ireland entity will have to have Constitutional arrangements for the 6Co area and for the "Ulster British"( I can't think of a better term) who live there.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: An Watcher on March 21, 2021, 03:45:40 PM
Well if loyalist crime gangs get wind of people not voting for a UI based on threats from them, we all know what is going to happen.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: grounded on March 21, 2021, 03:50:37 PM
What i do find both fascinating and simultaneously utterly depressing, is the differences in conversation between the Nationalists/Republicans/others both North and South(be that political parties, media and even forums like this. Loads of different opinions/arguments both for and against.
          Is there anything like that sort of discourse on the Unionist/Loyalist side?
  All roads lead to Dublin and hell!
           
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: grounded on March 21, 2021, 04:20:40 PM
https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/01/17/unionism-fighting-a-border-poll/

Worth a read. A fermanagh orangeman no less
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 06:49:32 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 21, 2021, 07:26:47 PM
Now Lairín that's you tould. ;D
Only extremist Nordie Nationalists count.
The other 6.3 million of us won't matter in this new Ireland.
Sounds like an Irish version of Polpotism.
Pólpota?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 21, 2021, 07:41:42 PM
The mindset of some free staters is stuck in the 1950s.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 21, 2021, 07:42:40 PM
Rossfan gets very tetchy when a mirror gets held up to the rampant partionism in the south.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2021, 07:50:43 PM
NI productivity is lower than RoI

Plus the Loyalist work culture needs to be reengineered

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: bennydorano on March 21, 2021, 08:07:56 PM
Just came across this on tiktok, there are about 5 or 6 videos. On how NI is better off in the UK, and some economic 'facts'.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeA9gF5D/
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 21, 2021, 08:20:25 PM
Just came across this on tiktok, there are about 5 or 6 videos. On how NI is better off in the UK, and some economic 'facts'.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeA9gF5D/
The UK hasn't been good for NI for at least 2 generations. Thatcherism is London centric and disadvantages the regions including NI
Brexit is the UK shooting itself in the foot . No benefit to NI.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Kidder81 on March 21, 2021, 08:22:12 PM
Just came across this on tiktok, there are about 5 or 6 videos. On how NI is better off in the UK, and some economic 'facts'.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeA9gF5D/
The UK hasn't been good for NI for at least 2 generations. Thatcherism is London centric and disadvantages the regions including NI
Brexit is the UK shooting itself in the foot . No benefit to NI.

When it comes to public spending and austerity, parts of the UK have suffered a lot more gravely than the 6 counties
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 08:41:44 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 08:58:52 PM
I think it might be helpful to consider this link on the cost to the British taxpayer to keep Norn Iron solvent. No wonder the Brits want to offload the whole goddamn lot of ye? :D
Okay the link is somewhat outdated. (Published in 2018 but the figures are substantial by any standards.
Northern Ireland fiscal deficit
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Northern Ireland fiscal deficit from 1999 to 2018
Northern Ireland fiscal deficit (also known as a subvention[1] or subsidy[2]) is the amount by which the public expenditure in Northern Ireland exceeds the tax revenue collected in Northern Ireland. The deficit typically runs at a rate of £10 billion per annum which is more than one third of Northern Ireland's annual fiscal budget. The size of the deficit has been seen by some commentators as a possible impediment to the future reunification of Ireland.

Only possible, sez he?? ;D ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 21, 2021, 09:00:46 PM

There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.

You say you don't want a sectarian statelet and yet you say the following?

How can the prospective unified Irish state you want not be sectarian if you're calling for anybody who votes against unification to be shot for being a "West Brit"?


Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.



If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
That should be the campaign slogan

Maybe throw in "if you don't vote Yes you're a West Brit **** who should be shot" as well

Marketing material like that will be sure to win over the middle ground
Good man, Sid.
I agree.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 09:31:46 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 09:33:52 PM

There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.

You say you don't want a sectarian statelet and yet you say the following?

How can the prospective unified Irish state you want not be sectarian if you're calling for anybody who votes against unification to be shot for being a "West Brit"?


Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.



If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
That should be the campaign slogan

Maybe throw in "if you don't vote Yes you're a West Brit **** who should be shot" as well

Marketing material like that will be sure to win over the middle ground
Good man, Sid.
I agree.
I note your lack of ability to detect sarcasm. I wouldn’t go as far as having them shot, but they’d be a waste of space and a shame to their country.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: dublin7 on March 21, 2021, 09:39:08 PM
If a border poll was passedd has anyone in SF considered what effect out will have on Unionists? Do you care?

They will no longer be a part of the UK so I doubt most will be happy with that. Has any policies been prepared to subsidise the costs of them relocation to the UK for example or are they expected to just accept it and deal with it. That's just a recipe for disaster and reappearance of the paramilitary terrorist organizations
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 21, 2021, 09:46:19 PM

There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.

You say you don't want a sectarian statelet and yet you say the following?

How can the prospective unified Irish state you want not be sectarian if you're calling for anybody who votes against unification to be shot for being a "West Brit"?


Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.



If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
That should be the campaign slogan

Maybe throw in "if you don't vote Yes you're a West Brit **** who should be shot" as well

Marketing material like that will be sure to win over the middle ground
Good man, Sid.
I agree.
I note your lack of ability to detect sarcasm. I wouldn’t go as far as having them shot, but they’d be a waste of space and a shame to their country.
I'm very good at detecting sarcasm and it didn't seem very sarcastic to me - it seemed half in jest, whole in earnest - especially given your other comments that I quote - which strongly imply that your preferred version of a united Ireland would not be based on parity of esteem but on vilification of those who do not subscribe to a stifling, uber-nationalistic official culture as dictated by Sinn Fein
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 21, 2021, 09:47:27 PM
I think it's worth putting this article up again.




The economic debate is seperate but lets call out the bigots who are using unionism as a bogeyman to deflect from this. The same bigots have little to say when unionists discriminate against Irish culture and Catholicism in the O6 are the same ones rolling out unionist fears to avoid talking about it.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2021, 09:50:13 PM
If a border poll was passedd has anyone in SF considered what effect out will have on Unionists? Do you care?

They will no longer be a part of the UK so I doubt most will be happy with that. Has any policies been prepared to subsidise the costs of them relocation to the UK for example or are they expected to just accept it and deal with it. That's just a recipe for disaster and reappearance of the paramilitary terrorist organizations

What’s another 30 years of violence, maybe if we had have stuck to our guns (no pun) back in the 20’s we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 21, 2021, 10:01:29 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 21, 2021, 10:23:28 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 12:04:10 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 22, 2021, 12:36:40 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It’s not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I’ve already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn’t what the north gets.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 01:15:49 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It’s not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I’ve already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn’t what the north gets.
Aw bollix, will you cut it out?  ;D ;D
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist. ;D
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 22, 2021, 01:27:28 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It’s not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I’ve already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn’t what the north gets.
Aw bollix, will you cut it out?  ;D ;D
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist. ;D
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...
It makes perfect sense.
If you’re not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don’t continue the discussion and waste my time any further ;D
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 22, 2021, 05:53:51 AM
Just a point of reference: outside of London, ALL statistical regions of the UK, with the exception of two, carry an annual fiscal deficit. NI has been doing so annually since 1966.

I don’t think any right-minded Republican is proposing unification to take place overnight, but Lar does make a good point that SF need to provide a detailed plan of how exactly it will take place. Not some 30 page summary of economic aspirations. Quite why he has singled SF out though I am not sure - there are other pro-unity parties that surely should have their skates on?

The SNP commissioned a 650 page paper on “Scotland’s Future”, perhaps SF are waiting until they are in government north and south before replicating something similar? Who knows. Perhaps a cross-party initiative could be formed to examine the real possibility of getting the ball rolling? We cant pussyfoot around Unionists forever.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 07:06:32 AM
If a border poll was passedd has anyone in SF considered what effect out will have on Unionists? Do you care?
If a border poll was not passed has anyone in FFG considered what effect it will have on Nationalists? Do you care? If your blueshirted darlings really cared about unionism they would organise in the north instead of just using it for political point scoring. Or at the very least, they could have supported Ian Marshall for a seat in the Seanad. A lot of people in the south use the spectre of loyalist violence as a bogeyman to reject talk of a border poll/reunification. Pity they weren't half, or even a quarter as concerned during the times when loyalists actually were most active in killing Irish people in the north.

They will no longer be a part of the UK so I doubt most will be happy with that. Has any policies been prepared to subsidise the costs of them relocation to the UK for example or are they expected to just accept it and deal with it. That's just a recipe for disaster and reappearance of the paramilitary terrorist organizations
Are you suggesting that the wishes of the majority be ignored incase the minority don't like it? Or are you suggesting that there should be a requirement of a majority greater than 50%+1?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: dublin7 on March 22, 2021, 07:45:48 AM
If a border poll was passedd has anyone in SF considered what effect out will have on Unionists? Do you care?
If a border poll was not passed has anyone in FFG considered what effect it will have on Nationalists? Do you care? If your blueshirted darlings really cared about unionism they would organise in the north instead of just using it for political point scoring. Or at the very least, they could have supported Ian Marshall for a seat in the Seanad. A lot of people in the south use the spectre of loyalist violence as a bogeyman to reject talk of a border poll/reunification. Pity they weren't half, or even a quarter as concerned during the times when loyalists actually were most active in killing Irish people in the north.

They will no longer be a part of the UK so I doubt most will be happy with that. Has any policies been prepared to subsidise the costs of them relocation to the UK for example or are they expected to just accept it and deal with it. That's just a recipe for disaster and reappearance of the paramilitary terrorist organizations
Are you suggesting that the wishes of the majority be ignored incase the minority don't like it? Or are you suggesting that there should be a requirement of a majority greater than 50%+1?

FF/FG have no interest in calling for a border poll and have never claimed to. It's SF who are demanding this so I assumed they have policies to go with this sound it's.

I realise you don't care what happens to Unionists if we end up with a united Ireland, but they are real people with real jobs and real homes. Why should all the public sector employees vote themselves out of a job for a flag?

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 08:00:44 AM
The reality (for me) is convincing all the benefits users that losing or possibility of losing their DLA/PIPs housing welfare and other benefits will not be the case.

Public sector jobs are way to much but a proportion of those jobs will still be required, so for me that’s not an issue.

Be rest assured that there will be ‘republicans’ and ‘nationalist’ looking to preserve there lifestyles and that’s the key area for this poll debate.

In the short term these benefits should be covered by the uk government for a period of transition but that won’t last long.

This poll is too early if done in next 3/4 years. The damage and fall out of brexit needs sorting first.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 08:07:15 AM
FF/FG have no interest in calling for a border poll and have never claimed to. It's SF who are demanding this so I assumed they have policies to go with this sound it's.
FG have no interest in holding one tomorrow. But the point you are at pains to avoid is that neither do SF. But as the self proclaimed 'United Ireland', FG at least like to pretend that they are pro-Irish Unity and such an aspiration cannot happen without a border poll. Demographic trends indicate that such a poll will happen relatively soon. Shouldn't FG attempt to be prepared for that eventuality?

I realise you don't care what happens to Unionists if we end up with a united Ireland, but they are real people with real jobs and real homes. Why should all the public sector employees vote themselves out of a job for a flag?
I realise you don't now, and never have, cared for nationalists in the north, but we are real people with real jobs and real homes. And we understand that partition has caused economic havoc in the north for absolutely everybody. I also realise that you don't actually care aboit unionists either. They are just useful to hold up as an excuse for your opposition to any mention of conatitutional change. You didn't answer my question(s):
Are you suggesting that the wishes of the majority be ignored incase the minority don't like it? Or are you suggesting that there should be a requirement of a majority greater than 50%+1?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 08:28:45 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and using terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 08:32:43 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:00:11 AM
Germany had the Schlieffen plan in World War I

Sinn Fein will have the Schleeveen plan

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 09:01:25 AM
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/sam-mcbride-a-failure-of-unionist-diplomacy-has-left-it-more-isolated-than-for-decades-3172052
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:13:33 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2
You could have a World Series of Border Polls

Best of 7 for the right to rule the wee six

Maybe you could even make it like a World Snooker final and make it best of 35 polls

Politics in NI could just become an endless series of border polls and SF and the DUP could forget all about any real issues

Actually they've already done that - so they might as well do it for the entertainment

Michelle O'Neill could do that triumphant Dennis Taylor finger wag when the united Ireland side wins 18-17 - like in that 1985 final, it could all come down to winning the (people of) colours
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 09:20:00 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2

You might not think it suitable but its what is in the GFA which was overwhelmingly endorsed across Ireland. So you are opposed to the GFA, and advocate a unionist veto? Cos unionist vetos have always been a good thing havent they?  ::)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 22, 2021, 09:26:29 AM
We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?
You’d need to ask Unionists about that.

Oh no wait that’s right, Unionists won’t even talk about the first one never mind another one!
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Louther on March 22, 2021, 09:38:00 AM
I see the DUP pulling the Irish Language Act (again) as protest against the Northern Ireland protocol.

So they look to inflict punishment on their own rather than Boris or anyone across the water cause it’s all they know.

Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:44:58 AM
As part of the new United Ireland treaty, Ulster Scots is made first official language, a bridge to Scotland is built, and the Dublin government pays for Belfast to once again start making ocean going luxury cruise liners

But disaster strikes with the launch of the Titanic 2

She's too tall to fit under the bridge, and knocks the bridge into the sea, before sinking herself

The entire party membership of the DUP is on board and goes down beneath the icy waves off Belfast Lough

Utopia awaits
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 22, 2021, 09:48:29 AM
We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?

Unionism in their arrogance never asked for subsequent border bolls if they lost any of them.

The GFA is majority plus 1.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 09:50:02 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It’s not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I’ve already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn’t what the north gets.
Aw bollix, will you cut it out?  ;D ;D
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist. ;D
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...
It makes perfect sense.
If you’re not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don’t continue the discussion and waste my time any further ;D
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist ;D
<yawn>
Would you please go away...
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 09:50:35 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 22, 2021, 09:54:02 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2

Why would there be a round 2? Once Ireland is united following the 1st border poll then future decisions taken will be a 32 county matter. Unionists would be represented in the Dail and would be a powerful enough block there to get concessions on things important to them. Democracy is 50% + 1. Its funny how when united Ireland gets close we get the experts tell us that this is not sufficient.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:55:09 AM
We still haven't got an answer to the question about whether Unionists should get another go if they lose the first border poll

Nationalists will look for another go if they lose it, so why shouldn't Unionists get one?

Unionism in their arrogance never asked for subsequent border bolls if they lost any of them.

The GFA is majority plus 1.
It would be covered by a future treaty

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 09:56:34 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2

Why would there be a round 2? Once Ireland is united following the 1st border poll then future decisions taken will be a 32 county matter. Unionists would be represented in the Dail and would be a powerful enough block there to get concessions on things important to them. Democracy is 50% + 1. Its funny how when united Ireland gets close we get the experts tell us that this is not sufficient.
There's nothing to say a united Ireland is close

It's highly unlikely anybody here will live to see one

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 22, 2021, 09:57:06 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

Within 5 years I'd say when the realities of Brexit start to kick home and the 6 counties are the odd ones out.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Louther on March 22, 2021, 10:00:35 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 10:04:54 AM
The Shinners here need to get on message

Some of them are going on about planning

Yet others are talking about "50% +1 is a united Ireland - end of" - or words to this effect

If the latter is true, then there's no planning needed, all that's needed is a referendum, which doesn't take any planning at all to hold, NI is well used to holding elections





Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 10:10:41 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 10:16:11 AM
You can't say a vote of 50% +1 = united Ireland - end of - and simultaneously talk about planning

The two are contradictory

"Planning" would effectively mean you would have to have a defined treaty spelling out the exact terms of a united Ireland ready to go in the event of a Yes vote - and that's against the Good Friday Agreement

Isn't it?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2021, 10:21:53 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2
Notwithstanding my reservations stated elsewhere, a 50+1% will not happen, certainly not in the way you portray. In all likelihood a postive vote will only start a process if it is that close. I would hope that there is a sizeable majority apparent before the vote.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2021, 10:24:05 AM
The Shinners here need to get on message

Some of them are going on about planning

Yet others are talking about "50% +1 is a united Ireland - end of" - or words to this effect

If the latter is true, then there's no planning needed, all that's needed is a referendum, which doesn't take any planning at all to hold, NI is well used to holding elections
To be fair these are personal opinions. SF position as a party seems to be about preparation. I don't take seriously their calls for a vote and see it as a tactic.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Louther on March 22, 2021, 10:27:17 AM
There absolutely needs to be a plan/roadmap. It’s a must and a given for all sides, 6 and 26, to consider. If anything is learned from Brexit, it’s that a vote without a roadmap, only leads to disaster.

What you are saying is fine and on paper and in normal world would make perfect logic and sense. But apply that to NI where an Irish Language Act brings down the local administration for 2 years and it doesn’t even affect the day to day life of vast majority of residents.

In my eyes anything done without strong cross community participation won’t be worth the paper it written on and will be thrown out without a thought.

That may be wrong in many eyes but those in power in one side will only see it this way. Do we have any strong leaders who will make that move to start the discussion? I can’t see it at present.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 22, 2021, 10:29:30 AM
You can't say a vote of 50% +1 = united Ireland - end of - and simultaneously talk about planning

The two are contradictory

"Planning" would effectively mean you would have to have a defined treaty spelling out the exact terms of a united Ireland ready to go in the event of a Yes vote - and that's against the Good Friday Agreement

Isn't it?

What?

To learn the lessons from Brexit, it's not that it won by a simple majority was the issue. It was the people had differing opinions on what post Brexit UK would look like and ultimately people voted for a ideal rather than a reality.

Before a UI referendum should happen the planning phase needs to happen as to what form that UI would take. How would health, education, elections, governance be impacted and what is the future state. So on and so forth

It isn't rocket science nor contradictory.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: imtommygunn on March 22, 2021, 10:34:28 AM
The lessons that need to be learned are probably more from the failings on the scottish independence voted. They failed on logistical issues like currency etc and that finer grained stuff needs detailed. They also failed due to some empty promises and lies from the tories so that lesson needs to be learned from too but perhaps more from the electorate than the parties.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 10:38:40 AM
Just a point of reference: outside of London, ALL statistical regions of the UK, with the exception of two, carry an annual fiscal deficit. NI has been doing so annually since 1966.

I don’t think any right-minded Republican is proposing unification to take place overnight, but Lar does make a good point that SF need to provide a detailed plan of how exactly it will take place. Not some 30 page summary of economic aspirations. Quite why he has singled SF out though I am not sure - there are other pro-unity parties that surely should have their skates on?

The SNP commissioned a 650 page paper on “Scotland’s Future”, perhaps SF are waiting until they are in government north and south before replicating something similar? Who knows. Perhaps a cross-party initiative could be formed to examine the real possibility of getting the ball rolling? We cant pussyfoot around Unionists forever.
I realise that every part of the UK, London excepted, needs a financial bail out to stay solvent but that’s not an issue  in the present context. In the event of a unity referendum being carried, the 6 counties will leave the Union and the British taxpayer will no longer boe obliged to bail them (it?) out year after year.
My esteemed opponent claims that Norn Iron only get £5 bn of this bailout but it’s what it costs the British taxpayer that’s at  issue here. My gripe is that SF are conspicuously silent on this matter. As you say, the SNP in similar circumstances commissioned a lengthy report to cover this and every other issue that would arise if the Scottish referendum was carried.
Yer man claims that there is plenty of evidence “out there” and tells me to look for it myself as it’s no concern of his.
I have looked for it  and have found out that it isn’t there.
I’d have no problem voting for unity if I know in advance what I am voting for-- and agree with it. SF won’t commit itself to anything or at least haven’t done so to date.
Why did I single out SF ?
Because, as far as I know, SF is the only party pressing for a referendum.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 10:46:04 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.
I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
 is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 10:47:10 AM
There absolutely needs to be a plan/roadmap. It’s a must and a given for all sides, 6 and 26, to consider. If anything is learned from Brexit, it’s that a vote without a roadmap, only leads to disaster.
100%

What you are saying is fine and on paper and in normal world would make perfect logic and sense. But apply that to NI where an Irish Language Act brings down the local administration for 2 years and it doesn’t even affect the day to day life of vast majority of residents.

In my eyes anything done without strong cross community participation won’t be worth the paper it written on and will be thrown out without a thought.

That may be wrong in many eyes but those in power in one side will only see it this way. Do we have any strong leaders who will make that move to start the discussion? I can’t see it at present.
But suggesting that a plan can't be suitable, or even made, unless it had cross-community support is just absolute Narnia stuff which only serves to hold the idea of a democratic choice to ransom. Unionism is never going to sit down an help devise a plan to bring them out of the uk and to suggest we can't start planning until they do is either totally naive or else a deliberate excuse to avoid ever, ever planning for unity.

A border poll is going to happen regardless, so if you are waiting to start the planning until unionism wants to get involved in making it, then that just won't happen, and you'll be facing into a Brexit style poll where people don't know what they are voting for. That can't happen. Demographics dictate that the poll will happen relatively soon regardless, so the planning has to start now regardless, and anyone and everyone who wants to be involved should get involved.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Armagh18 on March 22, 2021, 10:48:15 AM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 22, 2021, 10:53:50 AM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 22, 2021, 10:58:00 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It’s not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I’ve already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn’t what the north gets.
Aw bollix, will you cut it out?  ;D ;D
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist. ;D
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...
It makes perfect sense.
If you’re not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don’t continue the discussion and waste my time any further ;D
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist ;D
<yawn>
Would you please go away...
Aye. Typical free state mindset for all to see.
To hell with the north eh
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 11:00:37 AM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 11:00:55 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.
I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
 is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

SF's greater push is not for a referendum, but for planning to start for when a referendum is called. Which will carry more weight in swaying the middle ground in the north: a SF plan for a united Ireland, or an cross-party plan for a United Ireland? A plan written by SF alone would be disregarded by the middle ground and used for political bickering by other parties. It would be a total waste of time and effort and would run contrary to what the aim of a plan would be: an template agreed by all who want to see unification happen.

As I keep repeating, we now have the beginnings of an economic united Ireland. That will undoubtedly lead to closer political alignment, and then you look at the rapidly changing demographic situation, then you can be sure a poll will happen in the relatively near future. The Irish government is abdicating it's responsibility by not being prepared.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 11:08:34 AM
There needs to be a plan, or better still a cross-party and cross-community agreement, of what the United Ireland would look like - how it would work in terms of elections, subventions, amalgamating public service, flags, anthems, citizenship etc
There seems to be an attitude from the most fortright people here that we just have a vote, and if the result is 50%+1 then that's everything decided and we wake up the next day in the new Ireland. That's deluded thinking.
SF and it's supporters are the ones shouting about this and ysing terms like "west brit" and "not a real irishman" for anyone who asks the inevitable questions and doesn't give an unequivocal yes.
These people would want to grow up and come out of their bubble - SF won't and can't deliver a UI on their own.

Of course we need a plan. That's what SF have been pressing the government to get the finger out on for quite some time.

As for the 50%+1 bit. You might not like it, but if a border poll is called and the result is 50.1% in favoir of unity, then it WILL be unity. That isn't delusion. It's what's written in the GFA. Just because you would like to see a bigger majority doesnt mean a bigger majority is required. Are you suggesting a greater majority should be required? And if so, how much greater?
50  plus 1% is not suitable for constitutional issues given the fluid nature of public opinion.  Just look.at Brexit.

Northern Ireland is hopelessly polarised and 50 plus 1% would be really f**king stupid. The Unionists could organise a posse of Alliance voters to win 50 plus 1% round 2
You could have a World Series of Border Polls

Best of 7 for the right to rule the wee six

Maybe you could even make it like a World Snooker final and make it best of 35 polls

Politics in NI could just become an endless series of border polls and SF and the DUP could forget all about any real issues

Actually they've already done that - so they might as well do it for the entertainment

Michelle O'Neill could do that triumphant Dennis Taylor finger wag when the united Ireland side wins 18-17 - like in that 1985 final, it could all come down to winning the (people of) colours

The rules would have to be clear

Best of 5
Live on Sky
2 losses in a row gets Mid antrim
No refunds

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: dublin7 on March 22, 2021, 11:14:35 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.
I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
 is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

SF's greater push is not for a referendum, but for planning to start for when a referendum is called. Which will carry more weight in swaying the middle ground in the north: a SF plan for a united Ireland, or an cross-party plan for a United Ireland? A plan written by SF alone would be disregarded by the middle ground and used for political bickering by other parties. It would be a total waste of time and effort and would run contrary to what the aim of a plan would be: an template agreed by all who want to see unification happen.

As I keep repeating, we now have the beginnings of an economic united Ireland. That will undoubtedly lead to closer political alignment, and then you look at the rapidly changing demographic situation, then you can be sure a poll will happen in the relatively near future. The Irish government is abdicating it's responsibility by not being prepared.

Political parties in the south can only plan for a united Ireland if all the political parties both north and south work together to come to an agreement. At the moment the two main political parties in the north won't work together and they shut down the assembly for over a year rather than come to an agreement.

I don't think a border boll is even a remote possibility at the moment and it's just political grandstanding by SF calling for one
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 22, 2021, 11:15:11 AM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

Then forget about a UI for another generation. It's not a god given right either BTW.

Loyalists/Unionists by the fact that its their MO won't want a UI but they're in a minority in NI now so if those of us that want a UI don't win over these people by listening, understand and addressing their fears then we won't get one.

It's that simple.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 22, 2021, 11:26:20 AM
The 3 or 4 extremists on this Board are doing a great job of alienating "freestaters"(sic) with their insults, hectoring, and general bad mouthing.
They want a"Border poll now" but then want the Irish Government to make arrangements for it first. The Irish Government have no role in the matter of course.
Then they say if its 50%+1 in favour in the North a United Ireland is then established.
They must be going to re write the GFA so that 4 million voters in the 26 Counties don't get to vote on the matter.
Sinn Féin are the main proponents of a "Border poll" so let's see a realistic practical paper on what they propose a United Ireland looks like.
And please leave out nonsense like a "32 County Socialist Republic".
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 11:27:22 AM
You can't say a vote of 50% +1 = united Ireland - end of - and simultaneously talk about planning

The two are contradictory

"Planning" would effectively mean you would have to have a defined treaty spelling out the exact terms of a united Ireland ready to go in the event of a Yes vote - and that's against the Good Friday Agreement

Isn't it?

What?

To learn the lessons from Brexit, it's not that it won by a simple majority was the issue. It was the people had differing opinions on what post Brexit UK would look like and ultimately people voted for a ideal rather than a reality.

Before a UI referendum should happen the planning phase needs to happen as to what form that UI would take. How would health, education, elections, governance be impacted and what is the future state. So on and so forth

It isn't rocket science nor contradictory.
But surely that's against the Good Friday Agreement

How can you negotiate a treaty about a state that doesn't exist

There were and could be no negotiations over Brexit until Brexit had been voted for

Because Brexit didn't exist until it was voted for

Also, if any united Ireland being voted on would be defined in small print before a vote, it would be rejected

And you're never going to get a pre-vote agreement anyway on what a united Ireland would mean in practice, too many people disagree

The only way a united Ireland would be voted for is if it's voted on blind, like Brexit - with the negotiations on what exactly it is to follow afterwards

The only planning you can do is to get the UK government to set out the exact criteria for when a border poll would be called - and the criteria could only be determined by designating a certain threshold for pro-united Ireland sentiment in approved opinion polling


Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 11:41:07 AM
Political parties in the south can only plan for a united Ireland if all the political parties both north and south work together to come to an agreement. At the moment the two main political parties in the north won't work together and they shut down the assembly for over a year rather than come to an agreement.
That's just, yet again, ignoring the reality. Are you seriously suggesting that unionists are going to sit down to plan for how to bring about the political change they are most opposed to? Of course they wont. No more than SF supporters are ever going to sit down with the British Government and help draw up a plan for never getting a united Ireland. Pie in the sky waffle. Turkeys won't vote for Christmas and it's insulting to them to expect them to. A border poll will be swung by the middle ground. That middle ground will only back it if they believe it constitutes a big enough effort to include those who will lose out in the referendum.

I don't think a border boll is even a remote possibility at the moment and it's just political grandstanding by SF calling for one
Of course it's not a possibility at the moment, but if a week is a long time in politics, then what's a decade? It's not long ago that I and others like me had to make sure we added about an hour onto any car journey we went on because of the likelihood of armed police and/or soldiers harassing us on the sides of the roads. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, compare that to today where we essentially have an economic united Ireland which can only lead to increased political convergence, and where we are witnessing demographic changes that show a Catholic/nationalist population which is younger and growing much more rapidly than the Protestant/unionist population. You can willfully ignore that reality all you like, but it remains the reality. A border poll will happen relatively soon.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 11:42:20 AM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It’s not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I’ve already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn’t what the north gets.
Aw bollix, will you cut it out?  ;D ;D
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist. ;D
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...
It makes perfect sense.
If you’re not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don’t continue the discussion and waste my time any further ;D
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist ;D
<yawn>
Would you please go away...
Aye. Typical free state mindset for all to see.
To hell with the north eh
Where did I say that??? ;D ;D
No.To hell with you.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Armagh18 on March 22, 2021, 11:43:17 AM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.
I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
 is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.
And every other party is a disgrace for not doing so!
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2021, 11:48:41 AM
The 3 or 4 extremists on this Board are doing a great job of alienating "freestaters"(sic) with their insults, hectoring, and general bad mouthing.
They want a"Border poll now" but then want the Irish Government to make arrangements for it first. The Irish Government have no role in the matter of course.
Then they say if its 50%+1 in favour in the North a United Ireland is then established.
They must be going to re write the GFA so that 4 million voters in the 26 Counties don't get to vote on the matter.
Sinn Féin are the main proponents of a "Border poll" so let's see a realistic practical paper on what they propose a United Ireland looks like.
And please leave out nonsense like a "32 County Socialist Republic".
You've made some good points, but I resent you calling me a Nordie.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 11:49:13 AM
The 3 or 4 extremists on this Board are doing a great job of alienating "freestaters"(sic) with their insults, hectoring, and general bad mouthing.
They want a"Border poll now" but then want the Irish Government to make arrangements for it first. The Irish Government have no role in the matter of course.
Who has said there should be a "border poll now" on the board?

Then they say if its 50%+1 in favour in the North a United Ireland is then established.
They must be going to re write the GFA so that 4 million voters in the 26 Counties don't get to vote on the matter.
Of course those in the south get a vote. Funny you don't regard as "extremist" those who are arguing that 50%+1 in the north should not be a sufficient majority - a position which runs contrary to the GFA.

Sinn Féin are the main proponents of a "Border poll" so let's see a realistic practical paper on what they propose a United Ireland looks like.
And please leave out nonsense like a "32 County Socialist Republic".
As I said above, what's the point in SF alone producing a paper? Do you think other parties would engage constructively with it, or use it for political point scoring? Which do you think the middle ground would take heed of: a plan produced with the involvement of the Irish Government and the SDLP, or one just produced by SF? If FFG have the courage of their convictions, then let them act constructively. A border poll is inevitable in the relatively short terms future. For the government parties of the south to refuse to prepare for it is an abdication of duty.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
I favour a UI, but with conditions as I've outlined. It serves no purpose to denigrate people in the ROI who look north and think we don't want any of that. If you want a UI then you need to ensure that as many concerns of the various parties can be addressed as possible. It is most certainly the case that a 32 county socialist republic will not happen. Initial iterations of Unity will likely be federal and still have a big British link. Insulting unionists and citizens south of the border is not helpful.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 22, 2021, 11:59:17 AM
SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.
I never said ignore 50%+1, I was making the point us folks "down here" have to vote too.
Mind you I'd be happier with 55 or 60%.
As I said before the duty of the Government Parties in the "South" is to govern the State.
The Supreme Court decided many years ago (McGimpsey case) that the Government was under no obligation to work fir a UI under the old Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Those articles are now (rightly) watered down so there's no imperative.

Edit - very sensible post by Apples.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2021, 12:02:31 PM
SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.
I never said ignore 50%+1, I was making the point us folks "down here" have to vote too.
Mind you I'd be happier with 55 or 60%.
As I said before the duty of the Government Parties in the "South" is to govern the State.
The Supreme Court decided many years ago (McGimpsey case) that the Government was under no obligation to work fir a UI under the old Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Those articles are now (rightly) watered down so there's no imperative.

Edit - very sensible post by Apples.
Imperatives wouldn't work, I sense that most of those I know south of the border would accept an orderly transition to a UI that held out the hope of prosperity for all.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 12:14:49 PM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.
I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
 is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

SF's greater push is not for a referendum, but for planning to start for when a referendum is called. Which will carry more weight in swaying the middle ground in the north: a SF plan for a united Ireland, or an cross-party plan for a United Ireland? A plan written by SF alone would be disregarded by the middle ground and used for political bickering by other parties. It would be a total waste of time and effort and would run contrary to what the aim of a plan would be: an template agreed by all who want to see unification happen.

As I keep repeating, we now have the beginnings of an economic united Ireland. That will undoubtedly lead to closer political alignment, and then you look at the rapidly changing demographic situation, then you can be sure a poll will happen in the relatively near future. The Irish government is abdicating it's responsibility by not being prepared.
IT seems to me that they are clearly calling for a referendum asap. I can't recall them inviting any other party to enter into discussions with them- on anything really. I don't expect any other party to produce a roadmap to anywhere if they have no interest in a referendum.
THe jibes that any Irish person is a West Brit if they won't vote for UI is ludicrous, stuff ypu'd get on a school playground.
It's like asking people to buy a pig in a poke. I mean who' commit himself to anything if he doesn't know what he is voting for?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 12:16:00 PM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

Then forget about a UI for another generation. It's not a god given right either BTW.

Loyalists/Unionists by the fact that its their MO won't want a UI but they're in a minority in NI now so if those of us that want a UI don't win over these people by listening, understand and addressing their fears then we won't get one.

It's that simple.

Why?

You don't need to win FFG voters over primarily. I think the vote will pass fairly comfortably down south, the changing demographics will prove that.

Addressing loyalist fears is fine but this is not genuine when it comes to FFG and the Free State mainstream media. They are not for changing, they are entrenched and do not want it to happen. They are merely using Unionist fears as a bogeyman, the real reason is a United Ireland dilutes the grip they have the Irish establishment. The last thing they want to countenance is reform of their state and losing control. We've seen how insidious it is recently with them when it comes to judicial appointment.

I don't think the free staters on here on a general level are reflective of the free state itself, the demographics are changing and they are the kind of dinosaurs who can't read the music of the room. The Independent/Irish Times/RTE have been running a vociferous campaign against SF for over a decade now and they keep on growing despite their best efforts. I think the majority of people under 50 want real reform down south too.

The north will be the real battleground and the conversation needs to start.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 12:16:29 PM
SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.
Utter nonsense. And what would the rest do if SF did what you suggest? They would attack SF's plan and universally deride them as being trying to be divisive and provocative for even talking about United Ireland. Oh and misrepresent their plan as some sort of a demand for an immediate border poll.

I never said ignore 50%+1, I was making the point us folks "down here" have to vote too.
I didn't claim you said to ignore 50%+1. I said there are others here who seem to be advocating that, and yet you don't regard their utterly anti-GFA position as "extremist".

Mind you I'd be happier with 55 or 60%.
I'd like to see a poll WON by at least that, but to suggest that a poll for unity of 50.1% should be honoured would be anti-democratic, ant-GFA, and an endosement of a unionist veto - any anyone who know anything about the six counties should know that unionist vetoes are never, ever a good idea.

As I said before the duty of the Government Parties in the "South" is to govern the State.
The Supreme Court decided many years ago (McGimpsey case) that the Government was under no obligation to work fir a UI under the old Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Those articles are now (rightly) watered down so there's no imperative.
All governments have contingency plans for possible future major events. The Irish Government are no different. Just bacause you believe there is no legal imperative to include something ti such a plan doesn't mean it should not be included on the grounds of responsible governance. The Irish Government drew up contingency plan in the event of Britain voting for Brexit. To suggest that they should not have some sort of a plan in place for what is an inevitable border poll, is just downright stupid. The government only a few years ago drew up an 'Ireland 2040' strategy to plan for the next few decades. To draw up such a plan and ignore, as it did, the potential for a border poll, is an total abdication of responsibility.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 22, 2021, 12:18:57 PM
Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.
I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.
No “hard bargaining” needs to be done.
We’re not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you’re gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.
To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.
To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
“I’ll only vote for a UI if it doesn’t cost me any money”. Plastic paddies. They’d be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.
G’man, you’re in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I’m afraid that there’s a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won’t vote for UI if it’s going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it’s not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don’t understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF’s proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That’s delusion on a grand scale.
I’d have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.
Of course I’m serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you’ll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be “importing” us, get off your high partitionist horse. It’s funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn’t have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we’re trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it’s not about SF.
I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won’t cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your “failed statelet” ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be “importing” you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I’m afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you’d better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You’re entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don’t share yours. C’est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can’t take your call for a UI seriously if you can’t be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?
Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let’s be clear that I didn’t say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you’re putting across, I wouldn’t be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you’re losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don’t want a United ireland then I take it.
Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded?  ;D
If I was a preacher man, I’d use the proverb, “there's none so blind as those who will not see,” as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don’t see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I’ll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.
 
“Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s about 1/5 of that.” Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won’t be accepted.
You still haven’t told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don’t expect an honest answer now, to be honest.
I know what you wrote. You’re letting on that we’re “problematic” and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on ;D
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.
It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the “equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that’s his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don’t you point out a few of them. I know I’d find a needle in a haystack before I’d find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I’m still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for “British annual subvention to Northern Ireland” and you’ll find out what I mean.
I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It’s not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I’ve already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn’t what the north gets.
Aw bollix, will you cut it out?  ;D ;D
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist. ;D
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...
It makes perfect sense.
If you’re not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don’t continue the discussion and waste my time any further ;D
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist ;D
<yawn>
Would you please go away...
Aye. Typical free state mindset for all to see.
To hell with the north eh
Where did I say that??? ;D ;D
No.To hell with you.
You value (what you think will be) an extra few euro in your pocket over the unification of Ireland. Have some shame.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 12:27:31 PM
I'd be prepared to accept a united Ireland if it meant 32 quid less in my pocket every week

But I'd draw the line at 33 quid less


Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 12:29:00 PM
Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it’s a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it’s one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.
I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
 is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.
And every other party is a disgrace for not doing so!
But why do you say that?
It's daft to think other parties haven't discussed the possibility of a border poll and haven't  a position prepared if the referendum is passed. BUt as long as there's no possibility of a poll, at present, would should any sane person choose to debate something they feel isn't going to happen?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 12:29:48 PM
IT seems to me that they are clearly calling for a referendum asap.
They have repeatedly called for one to happen in 5 years. It was part of their manifesto at the last election. All their utterances since have been calls for planning to begin.

I can't recall them inviting any other party to enter into discussions with them- on anything really. I don't expect any other party to produce a roadmap to anywhere if they have no interest in a referendum.
They've been consistently calling for an All-Ireland forum to be put in place. There's no point in them talking to themselves. And as I keep saying, it doesn't matter if FFG have "no interest" in a referendum or not. A referendum is still going to happen despite them. So to refuse to pan ahead for it is shockingly irresponsible. The had a contingency plan in place for Britain leaving the EU, but steadfastly refuse to put on in place for the 6 counties leaving the UK. A dereliction of duty, given the absolute inevitability of a poll.

THe jibes that any Irish person is a West Brit if they won't vote for UI is ludicrous, stuff ypu'd get on a school playground.
It's like asking people to buy a pig in a poke. I mean who' commit himself to anything if he doesn't know what he is voting for?
And yet you defend those who refuse to engage in a discussion about what they might be voting for. Besides, I could get into a rant about why many in the north feel disgusted about anyone in the south even having to think about whether they want the reunification and independence of their own country; particularly against the backdrop of how many in the south treated the norh post-partition, and the feeling that there was a dishonorable wrong there that ought to be righted, but I'll leave that to another day.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 22, 2021, 12:36:27 PM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

75% of "freestaters" Have voted on this poll for unification. And please, I was born in Cavan and live in the west of the country now. I do not like to be referred to as a "freestater".
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 12:42:40 PM
There's a lot of political entrenchment to the border poll down south.

I'd put the following categories

Strongly in favour: SF
Moderately in favour: SDLP, People Before Profit
On the fence: Greens, Social Democrats, Alliance
Strongly Opposed: FF, FG, Labour, DUP, UUP, TUV

I think the demographics will have a big issue. The north has a growing Catholic/Nationalist population but there's also the disillusionment of the younger generation - particularly down south with how rapid SF's growth was, a protest vote for change - something other than the FFG policies that has seen a housing crisis and dysfunctional health service. The FFG core vote will continue to fall and SF will be in government in the 26 after the next election. I'd be fairly expectant of that, when they do get in power they will then advance the conversation about the border poll.

I do see it happening in the next decade at some point and I do think that those who shout the loudest against it happening on both sides of the border are part of a dinosaur breed who are dying out.

Let's look at the political landscape of politics both sides of the border in the past decade or 15 years.

In the 2007 FS general election - FFGLAB held 148 seats of 166 (89%)
In the 2020 FS general election - FFG held 78 of 160 seats (49%)

In the 2007 Assembly Elections - DUP/UUP/TUV/PUP won 55/108 seats (51%)
In the 2017 Assembly elections - DUP/UUP/TUV/PUP won 39/90 seats (43%)

Now the Assembly elections are still pretty much a green/orange divide, the shift more represents the changing of demographics with relation to the Catholic/Protestant population.

Down south is different, it's a result of the u50 generation being foisted with the consequences of incompetence and normalising corrupt political practices from FFG governments and the people are voting for change.

Here is the exit poll from the last general election down south, FFG are utterly reliant on the vote of the over 65s

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/exit-poll-by-numbers-who-voted-what-way-and-where-1.4166978
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 12:45:16 PM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

75% of "freestaters" Have voted on this poll for unification. And please, I was born in Cavan and live in the west of the country now. I do not like to be referred to as a "freestater".

Yes but 25% haven't.

The Free State is what I refer to it as, the island is partitioned into two states. If you are a republican then I'm sure you resent the free state as much as I do and what to bring about the cessation of two failed states on this island to one which is a more fairer and equitable society.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: five points on March 22, 2021, 12:51:17 PM

The Free State is what I refer to it as, the island is partitioned into two states. If you are a republican then I'm sure you resent the free state as much as I do and what to bring about the cessation of two failed states on this island to one which is a more fairer and equitable society.

Are you sure you can make a silk purse from a sow's ear? Or more exactly two sows' ears?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 12:53:25 PM
Angelo has consistently asked: what's in it for people under 40 to get a Covid vaccine?

Given that stance, it seems fair to ask of him: what's in it for the people who he so dismissively refers to as "free staters" to vote for Ireland to take in the North?

Why would we? Why should we?

I'm not of that "I'm alright Jack" view on a united Ireland myself, but neither am I an "I'm alright Jack" merchant as regards the Covid vaccine, whereas Angelo is

There's a deep hypocrisy there on Angelo's part

He dismisses societal solidarity as regards the Covid vaccine, yet demands that people in the Republic show solidarity with Northern nationalists in their desire for a united Ireland

That's hypocrisy
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 12:57:30 PM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

75% of "freestaters" Have voted on this poll for unification. And please, I was born in Cavan and live in the west of the country now. I do not like to be referred to as a "freestater".

Yes but 25% haven't.

The Free State is what I refer to it as, the island is partitioned into two states. If you are a republican then I'm sure you resent the free state as much as I do and what to bring about the cessation of two failed states on this island to one which is a more fairer and equitable society.
Far from being a failed state, the Republic of Ireland is one of the most successful states in the world and one of the best in the world to live in
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:00:54 PM
The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life

Some "failed state", eh  ;D

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-un-human-development-index-2019-5303638-Dec2020/#:~:text=Switzerland%2C%20Hong%20Kong%2C%20Iceland%2C,the%20highest%20in%20the%20world.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 01:01:46 PM
Angelo has consistently asked: what's in it for people under 40 to get a Covid vaccine?

Given that stance, it seems fair to ask of him: what's in it for the people who he so dismissively refers to as "free staters" to vote for Ireland to take in the North?

Why would we? Why should we?

I'm not of that "I'm alright Jack" view on a united Ireland myself, but neither am I an "I'm alright Jack" merchant as regards the Covid vaccine, whereas Angelo is

There's a deep hypocrisy there on Angelo's part

He dismisses societal solidarity as regards the Covid vaccine, yet demands that people in the Republic show solidarity with Northern nationalists in their desire for a united Ireland

That's hypocrisy

I don't demand anything.

The FFGLab century long control of the Free is coming to an end and when that happens the momentum behind a United Ireland grows.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 01:02:33 PM
The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life

Some "failed state", eh  ;D

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-un-human-development-index-2019-5303638-Dec2020/#:~:text=Switzerland%2C%20Hong%20Kong%2C%20Iceland%2C,the%20highest%20in%20the%20world.

Maybe you should canvas your constituency next time around to see what people think of the state.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:04:15 PM
Angelo has consistently asked: what's in it for people under 40 to get a Covid vaccine?

Given that stance, it seems fair to ask of him: what's in it for the people who he so dismissively refers to as "free staters" to vote for Ireland to take in the North?

Why would we? Why should we?

I'm not of that "I'm alright Jack" view on a united Ireland myself, but neither am I an "I'm alright Jack" merchant as regards the Covid vaccine, whereas Angelo is

There's a deep hypocrisy there on Angelo's part

He dismisses societal solidarity as regards the Covid vaccine, yet demands that people in the Republic show solidarity with Northern nationalists in their desire for a united Ireland

That's hypocrisy

I don't demand anything.

The FFGLab century long control of the Free is coming to an end and when that happens the momentum behind a United Ireland grows.
You didn't address the point
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 01:06:03 PM
Angelo has consistently asked: what's in it for people under 40 to get a Covid vaccine?

Given that stance, it seems fair to ask of him: what's in it for the people who he so dismissively refers to as "free staters" to vote for Ireland to take in the North?

Why would we? Why should we?

I'm not of that "I'm alright Jack" view on a united Ireland myself, but neither am I an "I'm alright Jack" merchant as regards the Covid vaccine, whereas Angelo is

There's a deep hypocrisy there on Angelo's part

He dismisses societal solidarity as regards the Covid vaccine, yet demands that people in the Republic show solidarity with Northern nationalists in their desire for a united Ireland

That's hypocrisy

I don't demand anything.

The FFGLab century long control of the Free is coming to an end and when that happens the momentum behind a United Ireland grows.
You didn't address the point

I did.

You said I demanded something.

I do not demand anything.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:07:11 PM
The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life

Some "failed state", eh  ;D

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-un-human-development-index-2019-5303638-Dec2020/#:~:text=Switzerland%2C%20Hong%20Kong%2C%20Iceland%2C,the%20highest%20in%20the%20world.

Maybe you should canvas your constituency next time around to see what people think of the state.
You didn't address the point

You claim Ireland is a "failed state"

Yet the UN ranks it second in the world for quality of life

If Ireland was a failed state, don't you think the UN would rank it a lot lower?

If Ireland was a failed state, you'd expect it to rank, ooh, maybe 102nd, or 202nd, rather than 2nd?

Wouldn't you?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: five points on March 22, 2021, 01:11:05 PM
The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life

Some "failed state", eh  ;D

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-un-human-development-index-2019-5303638-Dec2020/#:~:text=Switzerland%2C%20Hong%20Kong%2C%20Iceland%2C,the%20highest%20in%20the%20world.

That index was heavily skewed by gross national income per capita, which is grossly inflated by the multinationals' leprechaun economics.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:11:34 PM
Angelo has consistently asked: what's in it for people under 40 to get a Covid vaccine?

Given that stance, it seems fair to ask of him: what's in it for the people who he so dismissively refers to as "free staters" to vote for Ireland to take in the North?

Why would we? Why should we?

I'm not of that "I'm alright Jack" view on a united Ireland myself, but neither am I an "I'm alright Jack" merchant as regards the Covid vaccine, whereas Angelo is

There's a deep hypocrisy there on Angelo's part

He dismisses societal solidarity as regards the Covid vaccine, yet demands that people in the Republic show solidarity with Northern nationalists in their desire for a united Ireland

That's hypocrisy

I don't demand anything.

The FFGLab century long control of the Free is coming to an end and when that happens the momentum behind a United Ireland grows.
You didn't address the point

I did.

You said I demanded something.

I do not demand anything.
Ooh, semantics when confronted with a point you can't answer

OK, let's change the wording to satisfy your semantics

Let's say you're encouraging or respectfully advocating that people in the Republic show solidarity with Northern nationalists by voting for a united Ireland in a border poll

That's still hypocrisy compared to your stance on the Covid vaccine

On one issue, you're advocating solidarity - and on the other, you're an I'm alright Jacker

That's deep hypocrisy

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:14:03 PM
The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life

Some "failed state", eh  ;D

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-un-human-development-index-2019-5303638-Dec2020/#:~:text=Switzerland%2C%20Hong%20Kong%2C%20Iceland%2C,the%20highest%20in%20the%20world.

That index was heavily skewed by gross national income per capita, which is grossly inflated by the multinationals' leprechaun economics.
It's a quality of life index - the clue is in the name - "Human Development"

It takes into account the whole population and their quality of life and their ability to have quality of life

Are you claiming Ireland is a failed state?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 01:17:10 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: five points on March 22, 2021, 01:24:44 PM
It's a quality of life index - the clue is in the name - "Human Development"

It takes into account the whole population and their quality of life and their ability to have quality of life

Next time, try reading beyond the headline.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/human-development-index-hdi

Quote
The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita. The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean. Refer to Technical notes for more details.

The HDI simplifies and captures only part of what human development entails. It does not reflect on inequalities, poverty, human security, empowerment, etc. The HDRO offers the other composite indices as broader proxy on some of the key issues of human development, inequality, gender disparity and poverty.


Quote

Are you claiming Ireland is a failed state?
I didn't make that claim. But it is certainly an underperfomer, lacking a lot of what most other Western European countries take for granted. Most especially the ability to withstand periodic economic downturns without significant social and economic harm.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
If you weren't advocating solidarity you wouldn't be calling people you think are not sufficiently pro-united Ireland for your liking "pathetic"

Actually, maybe you're right, maybe you're not advocating solidarity at all

Maybe you're actually a DUP plant who is anti-united Ireland and all your bluster here is fiendishly designed to turn people off the idea

That's just a joke by the way, mate

But that's sort of how it comes across because the way you go on there's absolutely no way you'd persuade anybody to vote for a united Ireland and chances are you'd turn quite a few people off the idea

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 22, 2021, 01:25:54 PM
SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.
Utter nonsense. And what would the rest do if SF did what you suggest? They would attack SF's plan and universally deride them as being trying to be divisive and provocative for even talking about United Ireland. Oh and misrepresent their plan as some sort of a demand for an immediate border
We can't do up a paper because the nasties might give out to us!!
"Nordie" Paranoia gone mad with you..

Let them deride and pick holes etc. Challenge them to come up with a better plan.

I've been giving ye the blueprint here for 10 or maybe 15 years at this stage.

PS sadly the thread is now filled with "You are ignorings...."
Hopefully the sensible posters will continue to engage with each other despite this.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 01:26:58 PM
https://www.nisra.gov.uk/statistics/labour-market-and-social-welfare/annual-survey-hours-and-earnings
"The key points from the Northern Ireland ASHE 2020 show that:

Median gross weekly earnings for full-time employees in April 2020 decreased by 1% from £535 in 2019 to £529 in 2020; the first annual decrease in weekly earnings since 2014 and the largest decrease on record."

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/earningsandlabourcosts/

Q3 20 Average weekly earnings EUR 844

That's a big gap.
Shinners who think that the Southern political class is useless don't know much about economics.

One of the biggest challenges would be how to improve productivity in the 6 counties.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 01:31:28 PM
IT seems to me that they are clearly calling for a referendum asap.
They have repeatedly called for one to happen in 5 years. It was part of their manifesto at the last election. All their utterances since have been calls for planning to begin.

I can't recall them inviting any other party to enter into discussions with them- on anything really. I don't expect any other party to produce a roadmap to anywhere if they have no interest in a referendum.
They've been consistently calling for an All-Ireland forum to be put in place. There's no point in them talking to themselves. And as I keep saying, it doesn't matter if FFG have "no interest" in a referendum or not. A referendum is still going to happen despite them. So to refuse to pan ahead for it is shockingly irresponsible. The had a contingency plan in place for Britain leaving the EU, but steadfastly refuse to put on in place for the 6 counties leaving the UK. A dereliction of duty, given the absolute inevitability of a poll.

THe jibes that any Irish person is a West Brit if they won't vote for UI is ludicrous, stuff ypu'd get on a school playground.
It's like asking people to buy a pig in a poke. I mean who' commit himself to anything if he doesn't know what he is voting for?
And yet you defend those who refuse to engage in a discussion about what they might be voting for. Besides, I could get into a rant about why many in the north feel disgusted about anyone in the south even having to think about whether they want the reunification and independence of their own country; particularly against the backdrop of how many in the south treated the norh post-partition, and the feeling that there was a dishonorable wrong there that ought to be righted, but I'll leave that to another day.
You misuynderstand me completely.
In fact, I am calling for the exact pposite.
I do not think any sane person would back SF's call for a referendum- without question. IU have no doubt that people in the South would vote Yes in overwhelming numbers if the felt they were voting for a UI that stood a reasonable chance of success.
I'd lke a full and frank discussion of the pro and cons of wehat I would be voting for and I expect most people would feel the same way, north or south.
SF are the only party actually canvassing for a referendumso SF are the only party that has to put its cards on the table and declare what they want people to vot for.
Other parties, north and south, have made it clear that they have on interest in a border polll at the moment so why shoulld any of themdeclare their positioon on something they have no interest in and they feel is not likely to happen?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:32:33 PM
It's a quality of life index - the clue is in the name - "Human Development"

It takes into account the whole population and their quality of life and their ability to have quality of life

Next time, try reading beyond the headline.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/human-development-index-hdi

Quote
The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita. The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean. Refer to Technical notes for more details.

The HDI simplifies and captures only part of what human development entails. It does not reflect on inequalities, poverty, human security, empowerment, etc. The HDRO offers the other composite indices as broader proxy on some of the key issues of human development, inequality, gender disparity and poverty.


Quote

Are you claiming Ireland is a failed state?

I didn't make that claim. But it is certainly an underperfomer, lacking a lot of what most other Western European countries take for granted. Most especially the ability to withstand periodic economic downturns without significant social and economic harm.

Oh I did read beyond the headline

Literally nobody says Ireland is remotely near being perfect or anything like it but we are demonstrably a very successful state and one of the best places in the world to live

If Ireland is ranking second in the UN HDI, even the most miserable, cynical curmudgeon would have to admit we're doing something right

Actually, they probably wouldn't

Quote
The HDI was created to emphasize that people and their capabilities should be the ultimate criteria for assessing the development of a country, not economic growth alone. The HDI can also be used to question national policy choices, asking how two countries with the same level of GNI per capita can end up with different human development outcomes. These contrasts can stimulate debate about government policy priorities.
The Human Development Index (HDI) is a summary measure of average achievement in key dimensions of human development: a long and healthy life, being knowledgeable and have a decent standard of living. The HDI is the geometric mean of normalized indices for each of the three dimensions.

The health dimension is assessed by life expectancy at birth, the education dimension is measured by mean of years of schooling for adults aged 25 years and more and expected years of schooling for children of school entering age. The standard of living dimension is measured by gross national income per capita. The HDI uses the logarithm of income, to reflect the diminishing importance of income with increasing GNI. The scores for the three HDI dimension indices are then aggregated into a composite index using geometric mean.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: five points on March 22, 2021, 01:37:21 PM

Oh I did read beyond the headline

Literally nobody says Ireland is remotely near being perfect or anything like it but we are demonstrably a very successful state and one of the best places in the world to live


You claimed that "The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life" based on a very limited and flawed study.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2021, 01:37:47 PM
SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.
Utter nonsense. And what would the rest do if SF did what you suggest? They would attack SF's plan and universally deride them as being trying to be divisive and provocative for even talking about United Ireland. Oh and misrepresent their plan as some sort of a demand for an immediate border
We can't do up a paper because the nasties might give out to us!!
"Nordie" Paranoia gone mad with you..

Let them deride and pick holes etc. Challenge them to come up with a better plan.

I've been giving ye the blueprint here for 10 or maybe 15 years at this stage.

PS sadly the thread is now filled with "You are ignorings...."
Hopefully the sensible posters will continue to engage with each other despite this.
You are as bad as Angelo, Nordie/freestater 2 sides, same coin.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 22, 2021, 01:39:01 PM
Reading some of the posts on here, I wouldn't want to share the 6 Co's with some of you never mind a UI.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 01:39:47 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
If you weren't advocating solidarity you wouldn't be calling people you think are not sufficiently pro-united Ireland for your liking "pathetic"

Actually, maybe you're right, maybe you're not advocating solidarity at all

Maybe you're actually a DUP plant who is anti-united Ireland and all your bluster here is fiendishly designed to turn people off the idea

That's just a joke by the way, mate

But that's sort of how it comes across because the way you go on there's absolutely no way you'd persuade anybody to vote for a united Ireland and chances are you'd turn quite a few people off the idea

You're misrepresenting me again.

I'm calling them pathetic as they are pathetic. I'm not asking them to do anything, I will comment on what I perceive their actions to be and in this case they are pathetic.

The thing about it is they have blocked talks on this for decades, FFG have abandoned and villanised northern nationalists for decades. They should be ashamed of that but the times are now changing, The Border Poll will be a reality, whether they like it or not.

FFG are irrelevant to me as they intransigent to any sort of positive societal impact that threatens their own vested interests.

Tiocfaidh ar la is getting closer.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:47:52 PM

Oh I did read beyond the headline

Literally nobody says Ireland is remotely near being perfect or anything like it but we are demonstrably a very successful state and one of the best places in the world to live


You claimed that "The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life" based on a very limited and flawed study.
Ireland did rank second in the UN Human Development Index

But that doesn't satisfy you because apparently you're the expert in how to run a world Human Development Index

Forget the UN one, yours is the real one to trust, even if it's written in the back of a stamp
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 01:51:18 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
If you weren't advocating solidarity you wouldn't be calling people you think are not sufficiently pro-united Ireland for your liking "pathetic"

Actually, maybe you're right, maybe you're not advocating solidarity at all

Maybe you're actually a DUP plant who is anti-united Ireland and all your bluster here is fiendishly designed to turn people off the idea

That's just a joke by the way, mate

But that's sort of how it comes across because the way you go on there's absolutely no way you'd persuade anybody to vote for a united Ireland and chances are you'd turn quite a few people off the idea

You're misrepresenting me again.

I'm calling them pathetic as they are pathetic. I'm not asking them to do anything, I will comment on what I perceive their actions to be and in this case they are pathetic.

The thing about it is they have blocked talks on this for decades, FFG have abandoned and villanised northern nationalists for decades. They should be ashamed of that but the times are now changing, The Border Poll will be a reality, whether they like it or not.

FFG are irrelevant to me as they intransigent to any sort of positive societal impact that threatens their own vested interests.

Tiocfaidh ar la is getting closer.
You claim FG and FF are irrelevant to you yet you spend most of your time posting about them

Nobody has to misrepresent you, and anyway your entire worldview is based on mispresenting others, truth means literally nothing to you

Keep it up if you want though, the more you post the more you turn people off a united Ireland
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 02:00:12 PM
We can't do up a paper because the nasties might give out to us!!
"Nordie" Paranoia gone mad with you..

Let them deride and pick holes etc. Challenge them to come up with a better plan.
::) Unless you are utterly stupid, you'll have understood that when I say that:
Quote
They would attack SF's plan and universally deride them as being trying to be divisive and provocative for even talking about United Ireland. Oh and misrepresent their plan as some sort of a demand for an immediate border poll.
that I'm making the point that the entire endeavor on SF's behalf would be en exercise in futility, rather than a mere complaint that "the nasties might give out to us". I'm going to be kind and give you the benefit of the doubt as say you aren't stupid, but merely are trying to deliberately misrepresent me.

FFG have been challenged to engage in any form of planning for a few years now. Perhaps consider my question again. Which do you think the middle ground (those who will decide the result of the poll) would take more heed of: a plan produced with the involvement of the Irish Government, SF, the SDLP, and all other parties who say they want this same thing, or one just produced by SF?
And, given that a border poll is an inevitability, wouldn't you expect any Irish government to at least be prepared? and aside from that, wouldn't you think parties that call themselves "The Republican Party" and "the United Ireland Party" wouldn't need to be coxed and cajoled into planning for a united Ireland?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Louther on March 22, 2021, 02:09:53 PM
Reading some of the posts on here, I wouldn't want to share the 6 Co's with some of you never mind a UI.

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 02:11:30 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
If you weren't advocating solidarity you wouldn't be calling people you think are not sufficiently pro-united Ireland for your liking "pathetic"

Actually, maybe you're right, maybe you're not advocating solidarity at all

Maybe you're actually a DUP plant who is anti-united Ireland and all your bluster here is fiendishly designed to turn people off the idea

That's just a joke by the way, mate

But that's sort of how it comes across because the way you go on there's absolutely no way you'd persuade anybody to vote for a united Ireland and chances are you'd turn quite a few people off the idea

You're misrepresenting me again.

I'm calling them pathetic as they are pathetic. I'm not asking them to do anything, I will comment on what I perceive their actions to be and in this case they are pathetic.

The thing about it is they have blocked talks on this for decades, FFG have abandoned and villanised northern nationalists for decades. They should be ashamed of that but the times are now changing, The Border Poll will be a reality, whether they like it or not.

FFG are irrelevant to me as they intransigent to any sort of positive societal impact that threatens their own vested interests.

Tiocfaidh ar la is getting closer.
You claim FG and FF are irrelevant to you yet you spend most of your time posting about them

Nobody has to misrepresent you, and anyway your entire worldview is based on mispresenting others, truth means literally nothing to you

Keep it up if you want though, the more you post the more you turn people off a united Ireland

No I don't.

I said their intransigence to a border poll does not matter. It's going to happen with or without them down the line. Nobody is calling for a border poll tomorrow. SF are actively talking about opening the dialogue for this to happen in the coming years. FFG and the establishment media are utterly against it. There is nothing FFG can do to stop this happening down the line, they won't have the numbers to do so.

Policies and decisions they choose to implement at government level do have an impact and are relevant and it's why people under the age of 50 have completely jumped ship. It's an inevitability that SF will head up the government in the next election down south.

Might be more worth your while trying to make a coherent argument than the amount of time and effort you are making to construct false equivalences.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 03:07:31 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
If you weren't advocating solidarity you wouldn't be calling people you think are not sufficiently pro-united Ireland for your liking "pathetic"

Actually, maybe you're right, maybe you're not advocating solidarity at all

Maybe you're actually a DUP plant who is anti-united Ireland and all your bluster here is fiendishly designed to turn people off the idea

That's just a joke by the way, mate

But that's sort of how it comes across because the way you go on there's absolutely no way you'd persuade anybody to vote for a united Ireland and chances are you'd turn quite a few people off the idea

You're misrepresenting me again.

I'm calling them pathetic as they are pathetic. I'm not asking them to do anything, I will comment on what I perceive their actions to be and in this case they are pathetic.

The thing about it is they have blocked talks on this for decades, FFG have abandoned and villanised northern nationalists for decades. They should be ashamed of that but the times are now changing, The Border Poll will be a reality, whether they like it or not.

FFG are irrelevant to me as they intransigent to any sort of positive societal impact that threatens their own vested interests.

Tiocfaidh ar la is getting closer.
There is no point in a border poll if people aren't ready for a United Ireland. People are going to want answers as to how NI would be integrated.
The abortion referendum is the reference for such an important vote . A citizens assembly of 100 people taken from all walks of life debated and assessed all of the issues that were expected to come up during the referendum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland)#Eighth_Amendment
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: five points on March 22, 2021, 03:10:50 PM

Oh I did read beyond the headline

Literally nobody says Ireland is remotely near being perfect or anything like it but we are demonstrably a very successful state and one of the best places in the world to live


You claimed that "The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life" based on a very limited and flawed study.
Ireland did rank second in the UN Human Development Index

But that doesn't satisfy you because apparently you're the expert in how to run a world Human Development Index

Forget the UN one, yours is the real one to trust, even if it's written in the back of a stamp

Oops looks like I hit a nerve. For all our supposed sophistication, a surprising number of our people get ratty when our "best little country in the world" myth gets punctured. If they got half as ratty about our almost-once-a-decade average of serious recessions, or our poor infrastructure and social services, we'd have a much better country.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: dublin7 on March 22, 2021, 03:12:03 PM
We can't do up a paper because the nasties might give out to us!!
"Nordie" Paranoia gone mad with you..

Let them deride and pick holes etc. Challenge them to come up with a better plan.
::) Unless you are utterly stupid, you'll have understood that when I say that:
Quote
They would attack SF's plan and universally deride them as being trying to be divisive and provocative for even talking about United Ireland. Oh and misrepresent their plan as some sort of a demand for an immediate border poll.
that I'm making the point that the entire endeavor on SF's behalf would be en exercise in futility, rather than a mere complaint that "the nasties might give out to us". I'm going to be kind and give you the benefit of the doubt as say you aren't stupid, but merely are trying to deliberately misrepresent me.

FFG have been challenged to engage in any form of planning for a few years now. Perhaps consider my question again. Which do you think the middle ground (those who will decide the result of the poll) would take more heed of: a plan produced with the involvement of the Irish Government, SF, the SDLP, and all other parties who say they want this same thing, or one just produced by SF?
And, given that a border poll is an inevitability, wouldn't you expect any Irish government to at least be prepared? and aside from that, wouldn't you think parties that call themselves "The Republican Party" and "the United Ireland Party" wouldn't need to be coxed and cajoled into planning for a united Ireland?

The border poll is inevitable, but it won't be in the lifetime of this government so they're not going to waste any time and energy on it and as has been pointed out previously there's no demand from the electorate in the south for them to do anything differently.

SF have been given no indication from either the British or UK government that they intend to call a border poll in the short to medium term so that also accounts for the lack of any planning for a united Ireland

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 22, 2021, 03:30:53 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
If you weren't advocating solidarity you wouldn't be calling people you think are not sufficiently pro-united Ireland for your liking "pathetic"

Actually, maybe you're right, maybe you're not advocating solidarity at all

Maybe you're actually a DUP plant who is anti-united Ireland and all your bluster here is fiendishly designed to turn people off the idea

That's just a joke by the way, mate

But that's sort of how it comes across because the way you go on there's absolutely no way you'd persuade anybody to vote for a united Ireland and chances are you'd turn quite a few people off the idea

You're misrepresenting me again.

I'm calling them pathetic as they are pathetic. I'm not asking them to do anything, I will comment on what I perceive their actions to be and in this case they are pathetic.

The thing about it is they have blocked talks on this for decades, FFG have abandoned and villanised northern nationalists for decades. They should be ashamed of that but the times are now changing, The Border Poll will be a reality, whether they like it or not.

FFG are irrelevant to me as they intransigent to any sort of positive societal impact that threatens their own vested interests.

Tiocfaidh ar la is getting closer.
There is no point in a border poll if people aren't ready for a United Ireland. People are going to want answers as to how NI would be integrated.
The abortion referendum is the reference for such an important vote . A citizens assembly of 100 people taken from all walks of life debated and assessed all of the issues that were expected to come up during the referendum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland)#Eighth_Amendment

This is the nub of it all though. Would the wee 6 just be integrated into a Dail/Dublin driven UI or do we seriously need to look at a New Ireland and I'd agree that the best way to do that would be a citizens forum or similar to eek that out.

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 22, 2021, 03:37:04 PM
I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

75% of "freestaters" Have voted on this poll for unification. And please, I was born in Cavan and live in the west of the country now. I do not like to be referred to as a "freestater".

Yes but 25% haven't.

The Free State is what I refer to it as, the island is partitioned into two states. If you are a republican then I'm sure you resent the free state as much as I do and what to bring about the cessation of two failed states on this island to one which is a more fairer and equitable society.

I am a republican however I do not "resent" the Republic of Ireland. I see it as a stepping stone for the full 32 county republic. We have a lot to be proud of against all the odds of making the Republic a successful nation. There are things that happened in it that I resent such as the power the Catholic Church were allowed to hold and the lack of action during the troubles and the downright ignoring of the troubles by many. But a strong Republic of Ireland makes unification much more likely as it will entice people from all backgrounds to want to join.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 03:48:28 PM
I'm not advocating solidarity on one hand. People should be conscionable to do what they want but I think FFG are being extremely disingenuous here in their pathetic excuses to not engage in dialogue on the United Ireland debate.

A border poll is going to happen despite the intransigence of FFGLab and DUP/UUP, it's those parties who are trying to fight against the tide. It's to do with the changing of demographics on both sides of the border and both due to the failings of the states on both sides of the border.

You should spend more time on articulating your own views than misrepresenting others.
If you weren't advocating solidarity you wouldn't be calling people you think are not sufficiently pro-united Ireland for your liking "pathetic"

Actually, maybe you're right, maybe you're not advocating solidarity at all

Maybe you're actually a DUP plant who is anti-united Ireland and all your bluster here is fiendishly designed to turn people off the idea

That's just a joke by the way, mate

But that's sort of how it comes across because the way you go on there's absolutely no way you'd persuade anybody to vote for a united Ireland and chances are you'd turn quite a few people off the idea

You're misrepresenting me again.

I'm calling them pathetic as they are pathetic. I'm not asking them to do anything, I will comment on what I perceive their actions to be and in this case they are pathetic.

The thing about it is they have blocked talks on this for decades, FFG have abandoned and villanised northern nationalists for decades. They should be ashamed of that but the times are now changing, The Border Poll will be a reality, whether they like it or not.

FFG are irrelevant to me as they intransigent to any sort of positive societal impact that threatens their own vested interests.

Tiocfaidh ar la is getting closer.
There is no point in a border poll if people aren't ready for a United Ireland. People are going to want answers as to how NI would be integrated.
The abortion referendum is the reference for such an important vote . A citizens assembly of 100 people taken from all walks of life debated and assessed all of the issues that were expected to come up during the referendum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland)#Eighth_Amendment

This is the nub of it all though. Would the wee 6 just be integrated into a Dail/Dublin driven UI or do we seriously need to look at a New Ireland and I'd agree that the best way to do that would be a citizens forum or similar to eek that out.
Of course..
There's is little point in asking one to vote for a UI and then being unwilling to let them know what sort of UI you have in mind.
I refuse to commit myself to anything until I know what I am voting for.
SF is calling for UI and want interparty discussions to begin.
So far so good...
But (all?) other parties on the island are reluctant to have such  referendum now as they collectively feel that it would have little chance of success and then there cannot be another referendum for seven years.
I think it's not rocket to suggests that SF need to declare their hand...tell the people what they propose discussing with other parties.  They seem very reluctant to do this and I won't back their call unless I know what I am voting for.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 22, 2021, 03:51:31 PM
Last sentence is spot on Itchy.
A modern outward looking 21st Century relatively prosperous State would be more attractive to join with than a "failed State "
Uniting the latter with a failed "Statelet" would give us a Western version of Albania.

Now how do we get a work ethic into them lazy 6 Cos crowd? ;)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Louther on March 22, 2021, 03:55:14 PM
Clare Byrne the place to be tonight.

Topic - United Ireland.

MM, Leo, Mary Lou, Ian Jnr.

Plus Brolly, Andrew Trimble.

Be some shouting match  ;D ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 22, 2021, 03:55:58 PM
Just a point of reference: outside of London, ALL statistical regions of the UK, with the exception of two, carry an annual fiscal deficit. NI has been doing so annually since 1966.

I don’t think any right-minded Republican is proposing unification to take place overnight, but Lar does make a good point that SF need to provide a detailed plan of how exactly it will take place. Not some 30 page summary of economic aspirations. Quite why he has singled SF out though I am not sure - there are other pro-unity parties that surely should have their skates on?

The SNP commissioned a 650 page paper on “Scotland’s Future”, perhaps SF are waiting until they are in government north and south before replicating something similar? Who knows. Perhaps a cross-party initiative could be formed to examine the real possibility of getting the ball rolling? We cant pussyfoot around Unionists forever.
I realise that every part of the UK, London excepted, needs a financial bail out to stay solvent but that’s not an issue  in the present context. In the event of a unity referendum being carried, the 6 counties will leave the Union and the British taxpayer will no longer boe obliged to bail them (it?) out year after year.
My esteemed opponent claims that Norn Iron only get £5 bn of this bailout but it’s what it costs the British taxpayer that’s at  issue here. My gripe is that SF are conspicuously silent on this matter. As you say, the SNP in similar circumstances commissioned a lengthy report to cover this and every other issue that would arise if the Scottish referendum was carried.
Yer man claims that there is plenty of evidence “out there” and tells me to look for it myself as it’s no concern of his.
I have looked for it  and have found out that it isn’t there.
I’d have no problem voting for unity if I know in advance what I am voting for-- and agree with it. SF won’t commit itself to anything or at least haven’t done so to date.
Why did I single out SF ?
Because, as far as I know, SF is the only party pressing for a referendum.
If we can accept that most of GB is running at a deficit then it stands to reason, NI, a periphery region of the UK was always going to naturally be slightly worse off. So even if the Troubles never happened, the North would have been a fiscal burden to GB regardless. So in a post-conflict NI, where many people want NI to “work”, it is patently clear that this objective is unachievable. While NI has quite low unemployment, it has a highly unskilled workforce, less job security, is paid less than rest of UK and has a massive 20% of the workforce not earning a basic living wage.

In terms of the subvention, it really depends who you listen to. Unionists are in the bizarre position of having to argue the cost of the Union. SF are not silent on this, in fact they point to military/defence spending, servicing British debt, overseas spending and pensions which will all come off the reunification bill. The exact cost is impossible to say of course but I’d imagine even the most economic illiterate among us can see that estimates will be nowhere near the higher end of the scale (£15bn??)

I agree/disagree with your singling out of SF - yes they should be getting the finger out but so should plenty of other parties. Especially self-styled Republican ones.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
The border poll is inevitable, but it won't be in the lifetime of this government so they're not going to waste any time and energy on it and as has been pointed out previously there's no demand from the electorate in the south for them to do anything differently.

SF have been given no indication from either the British or UK government that they intend to call a border poll in the short to medium term so that also accounts for the lack of any planning for a united Ireland

The Irish Government in 2017, produced an 'Ireland 2040' strategy, which was about making contingency plans for the medium term future. It didn't even reference the fact that a border poll in that time frame is a strong probability. Are you seriously suggesting that:
(i) A government is wrong to draw up contingency plans for the well-being of a state if those plans extend beyond the it's term in office?
(ii) That it was sensible/responsible to omit to include any forward planning for a border poll in the 'Ireland 2040' project, given the probability of a border poll within that time frame?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 22, 2021, 04:00:49 PM
SF is calling for UI and want interparty discussions to begin.
So far so good...
But (all?) other parties on the island are reluctant to have such  referendum now as they collectively feel that it would have little chance of success and then there cannot be another referendum for seven years.
You are again persisting with the misrepresentation that SF are demanding a poll to happen now. They have repeatedly said they would like to see on in 5 years. Not now.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 04:32:41 PM

Oh I did read beyond the headline

Literally nobody says Ireland is remotely near being perfect or anything like it but we are demonstrably a very successful state and one of the best places in the world to live


You claimed that "The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life" based on a very limited and flawed study.
Ireland did rank second in the UN Human Development Index

But that doesn't satisfy you because apparently you're the expert in how to run a world Human Development Index

Forget the UN one, yours is the real one to trust, even if it's written in the back of a stamp

Oops looks like I hit a nerve. For all our supposed sophistication, a surprising number of our people get ratty when our "best little country in the world" myth gets punctured. If they got half as ratty about our almost-once-a-decade average of serious recessions, or our poor infrastructure and social services, we'd have a much better country.
The only nerve you hit is your own when you decided to deny that Ireland ranked second in the UN Human Development Index, which is a pretty good indicator that we're a good country to live in

Who said we're the best country in the world, nobody I know or have heard of, there's loads wrong with this country, as there is with every country

But the fact we're demonstrably one of the better ones, near enough the top in the world actually, seems to really rankle with some terminally miserable people

Some people even try to claim we're a failed state and those people are head the balls





Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 04:38:42 PM
Last sentence is spot on Itchy.
A modern outward looking 21st Century relatively prosperous State would be more attractive to join with than a "failed State "
Uniting the latter with a failed "Statelet" would give us a Western version of Albania.

Now how do we get a work ethic into them lazy 6 Cos crowd? ;)
NI had an industrial base
from which non Prods were excluded
Non Prods wer poor
Then the industrial base collapsed
Non Prods got educated
Working class Prods typically  did not.

I think NI has a lot of margin.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 04:43:02 PM
Clare Byrne the place to be tonight.

Topic - United Ireland.

MM, Leo, Mary Lou, Ian Jnr.

Plus Brolly, Andrew Trimble.

Be some shouting match  ;D ;D

Nicely set up for the usual SF bashing RTE show.

Laughable that Naomi Long and Andrew Trimble will probably more for a United Ireland than Martin (who ridiculously claims to be republican when he is staunchly partitionist) would be.

I think of that panel only MLMD and Brolly will advocate for a United Ireland.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
In terms of the subvention, it really depends who you listen to. Unionists are in the bizarre position of having to argue the cost of the Union. SF are not silent on this, in fact they point to military/defence spending, servicing British debt, overseas spending and pensions which will all come off the reunification bill. The exact cost is impossible to say of course but I’d imagine even the most economic illiterate among us can see that estimates will be nowhere near the higher end of the scale

The point is that when two states separate the norm is for debt and pensions to be split accordingly and this is what is envisaged for Scotland. Now I can think of many reasons why this should not be case for NI leaving the UK, but what model exactly do SF propose?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Taylor on March 22, 2021, 05:40:40 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56457295#:~:text=Finland%20has%20been%20named%20the%20happiest%20place%20in%20the%20world,Switzerland%2C%20Iceland%20and%20the%20Netherlands.

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: dublin7 on March 22, 2021, 05:42:07 PM
The border poll is inevitable, but it won't be in the lifetime of this government so they're not going to waste any time and energy on it and as has been pointed out previously there's no demand from the electorate in the south for them to do anything differently.

SF have been given no indication from either the British or UK government that they intend to call a border poll in the short to medium term so that also accounts for the lack of any planning for a united Ireland

The Irish Government in 2017, produced an 'Ireland 2040' strategy, which was about making contingency plans for the medium term future. It didn't even reference the fact that a border poll in that time frame is a strong probability. Are you seriously suggesting that:
(i) A government is wrong to draw up contingency plans for the well-being of a state if those plans extend beyond the it's term in office?
(ii) That it was sensible/responsible to omit to include any forward planning for a border poll in the 'Ireland 2040' project, given the probability of a border poll within that time frame?

2040 is two decades away. That's when we can start a proper discussion on a border poll that might have a chance of passing.

Pointless holding one in the next few years as it won't pass and it'll be at least 7 years before they can hold another one. I imagine this is why no one is pushing or preparing for a poll at the moment. Again no point planning for something so far away and unguaranteed
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 06:07:01 PM
SF is calling for UI and want interparty discussions to begin.
So far so good...
But (all?) other parties on the island are reluctant to have such  referendum now as they collectively feel that it would have little chance of success and then there cannot be another referendum for seven years.
You are again persisting with the misrepresentation that SF are demanding a poll to happen now. They have repeatedly said they would like to see on in 5 years. Not now.
SF want to set a timeline for a poll and want discussions to begin now. That okay with you?
Whether you want it now or in ten years, if you set a definite time limit and you go about discussing the holding of such an election, you are canvassing for the election you want to be held. You are in active election mode.
More moderate parties feel preparing for a poll at present is not advisable and feel it will prove particularly divisive and hasn't a hope of success.  It also means that the chances of a successful result will be delayed by at least seven  more years, according to GFA protocols.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 22, 2021, 06:15:44 PM
The border poll is inevitable, but it won't be in the lifetime of this government so they're not going to waste any time and energy on it and as has been pointed out previously there's no demand from the electorate in the south for them to do anything differently.

SF have been given no indication from either the British or UK government that they intend to call a border poll in the short to medium term so that also accounts for the lack of any planning for a united Ireland

The Irish Government in 2017, produced an 'Ireland 2040' strategy, which was about making contingency plans for the medium term future. It didn't even reference the fact that a border poll in that time frame is a strong probability. Are you seriously suggesting that:
(i) A government is wrong to draw up contingency plans for the well-being of a state if those plans extend beyond the it's term in office?
(ii) That it was sensible/responsible to omit to include any forward planning for a border poll in the 'Ireland 2040' project, given the probability of a border poll within that time frame?

2040 is two decades away. That's when we can start a proper discussion on a border poll that might have a chance of passing.

Pointless holding one in the next few years as it won't pass and it'll be at least 7 years before they can hold another one. I imagine this is why no one is pushing or preparing for a poll at the moment. Again no point planning for something so far away and unguaranteed

With Brexit and a likely Scottish break away, the next 5-7 years is exactly the right time.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 06:20:05 PM
Just a point of reference: outside of London, ALL statistical regions of the UK, with the exception of two, carry an annual fiscal deficit. NI has been doing so annually since 1966.

I don’t think any right-minded Republican is proposing unification to take place overnight, but Lar does make a good point that SF need to provide a detailed plan of how exactly it will take place. Not some 30 page summary of economic aspirations. Quite why he has singled SF out though I am not sure - there are other pro-unity parties that surely should have their skates on?

The SNP commissioned a 650 page paper on “Scotland’s Future”, perhaps SF are waiting until they are in government north and south before replicating something similar? Who knows. Perhaps a cross-party initiative could be formed to examine the real possibility of getting the ball rolling? We cant pussyfoot around Unionists forever.
I realise that every part of the UK, London excepted, needs a financial bail out to stay solvent but that’s not an issue  in the present context. In the event of a unity referendum being carried, the 6 counties will leave the Union and the British taxpayer will no longer boe obliged to bail them (it?) out year after year.
My esteemed opponent claims that Norn Iron only get £5 bn of this bailout but it’s what it costs the British taxpayer that’s at  issue here. My gripe is that SF are conspicuously silent on this matter. As you say, the SNP in similar circumstances commissioned a lengthy report to cover this and every other issue that would arise if the Scottish referendum was carried.
Yer man claims that there is plenty of evidence “out there” and tells me to look for it myself as it’s no concern of his.
I have looked for it  and have found out that it isn’t there.
I’d have no problem voting for unity if I know in advance what I am voting for-- and agree with it. SF won’t commit itself to anything or at least haven’t done so to date.
Why did I single out SF ?
Because, as far as I know, SF is the only party pressing for a referendum.
If we can accept that most of GB is running at a deficit then it stands to reason, NI, a periphery region of the UK was always going to naturally be slightly worse off. So even if the Troubles never happened, the North would have been a fiscal burden to GB regardless. So in a post-conflict NI, where many people want NI to “work”, it is patently clear that this objective is unachievable. While NI has quite low unemployment, it has a highly unskilled workforce, less job security, is paid less than rest of UK and has a massive 20% of the workforce not earning a basic living wage.

In terms of the subvention, it really depends who you listen to. Unionists are in the bizarre position of having to argue the cost of the Union. SF are not silent on this, in fact they point to military/defence spending, servicing British debt, overseas spending and pensions which will all come off the reunification bill. The exact cost is impossible to say of course but I’d imagine even the most economic illiterate among us can see that estimates will be nowhere near the higher end of the scale (£15bn??)

I agree/disagree with your singling out of SF - yes they should be getting the finger out but so should plenty of other parties. Especially self-styled Republican ones.
Again, that's an eminently sensible post. However, no matter who you listen to, the North needs  massive injection of cash every year to stay solvent. If you google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland," you will find estimates varying between 8 and 15 billion. Whatever the true figure may be the North will need billions of outside help to survive.
That's the first issue that crosses most peoples' minds when the subject of a border poll crops up.
PS All nationalist parties claim they want to see a united Ireland but don't think that now is a good time to start agitating for one.  In other words, mess this one up and cause sectarian rows and tension that will last for years. Also, an election referendum can only be held if there's a gap of seven years between referenda.
IMO, calling for an election now is inadvisable.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 06:59:31 PM
If it's going to be 2040 before a border poll has a realistic chance of passing, that's just enough time for the Unionists to set about reversing the outbreeding trend

They'd have to embrace Catholic Church teachings on sex for that, it wasn't that uncommon back in the day for Catholic women in the Republic to have 20 plus kids

Nationalists say "f**k the Union", Unionists could say "f**k for the Union"

The "Breed Like Rabbits" (in the headlights) campaign could catch on, especially given that a lot of Unionists don't seem to have much to do these days except sit around wishing it was 1690
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 07:06:42 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 07:18:58 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 07:32:15 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?

I think there is enough groundswell of support both sides of the border for a poll to be called and the demographics are only trending more in support of it.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Kidder81 on March 22, 2021, 08:04:44 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?

I think there is enough groundswell of support both sides of the border for a poll to be called and the demographics are only trending more in support of it.

Nope
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 08:15:48 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?

I think there is enough groundswell of support both sides of the border for a poll to be called and the demographics are only trending more in support of it.

I’m struggling with that part, I’d thinking both sides would be up here rather than down there.

I’d be happier if liberal prods could see the benefits first before asking a poll
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 22, 2021, 08:25:18 PM
Again, that's an eminently sensible post. However, no matter who you listen to, the North needs  massive injection of cash every year to stay solvent. If you google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland," you will find estimates varying between 8 and 15 billion. Whatever the true figure may be the North will need billions of outside help to survive.
That's the first issue that crosses most peoples' minds when the subject of a border poll crops up.
PS All nationalist parties claim they want to see a united Ireland but don't think that now is a good time to start agitating for one.  In other words, mess this one up and cause sectarian rows and tension that will last for years. Also, an election referendum can only be held if there's a gap of seven years between referenda.
IMO, calling for an election now is inadvisable.
That is entirely correct, we in the north live in a basketcase. However I disagree, now is the time to turn the screw. With Scotland posed for an election in 45 days and a likely return of a majority of pro-independence MSPs (and thus a pledge for indyref2) it would be expedient of SF and whoever else to agitate for a border poll. I will admit at this juncture that Unionist concerns, at least the more belligerent ones, are far down my list of concerns.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 22, 2021, 08:43:45 PM
I think that when the peace process got going the Brits made a tactical decision to reduce the risk of a return to violence by throwing money at the 6 counties. It would have been cheaper to invest in skills and productivity but they didn't.

https://youtu.be/PlGmYetiCjA
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 08:59:58 PM
Again, that's an eminently sensible post. However, no matter who you listen to, the North needs  massive injection of cash every year to stay solvent. If you google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland," you will find estimates varying between 8 and 15 billion. Whatever the true figure may be the North will need billions of outside help to survive.
That's the first issue that crosses most peoples' minds when the subject of a border poll crops up.
PS All nationalist parties claim they want to see a united Ireland but don't think that now is a good time to start agitating for one.  In other words, mess this one up and cause sectarian rows and tension that will last for years. Also, an election referendum can only be held if there's a gap of seven years between referenda.
IMO, calling for an election now is inadvisable.
That is entirely correct, we in the north live in a basketcase. However I disagree, now is the time to turn the screw. With Scotland posed for an election in 45 days and a likely return of a majority of pro-independence MSPs (and thus a pledge for indyref2) it would be expedient of SF and whoever else to agitate for a border poll. I will admit at this juncture that Unionist concerns, at least the more belligerent ones, are far down my list of concerns.
Again, I don't disagree with any of that. However, loyalist tensions are rising over the issue of having a border of any sort between the 6 cos and the PSNI say they are closely monitoring the situation  Inflaming sectarian feeling right now wouldn't be advisable.
Also, you can't half turn on a light or give someone a half kick up the backside. In the same manner,, you can't half call an election. If SF had sent out feelers in the conventional way politicians communicate with each other, they might get somewhere. They know this full well and they know what the response was going to be.
Back in the Celtic Tiger days I was on pretty good terms with Bertie Ahern.  Bertie wasn't a regular in the Yacht in Clontarf but he's drop in for a pint or two from time to time.
Just by pure coincidence, of course, he'd bump into Ruairi Quinn of the Labour Party. They's stop to have a quick chat and no outsider wouldn't be any the wiser. But those chance meetings were carefully choreographed. After all, they were supposed to be deadly enemies and they were but only on a political level. It was in both parties' interests to keep communication lines open.
No matter which Miceal and Mary Lou personally think of the other, it's inconceivable that there is no communication between their parties just as the White House and the Kremlin have their own protected hotline between the leaders. I'm saying that if the Shinners really wanted yo open discussions with any of the other parties they need not use the media to issue invitations to anyone.
I mean it wouldn't do Miceal or Leo's public image if they have spent their careers  hopping fucks of Mary Lou's hide and then turn around and say, "Incidentally, we are have unification talks with Sinn Fein.
IMO, Sinn Fein are playing double entendre here. THey know damn well that challenging FFG or any other politician to openly discuss any sensitive issue that might go anywhere won't get a positive response from any side.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 09:14:19 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?

I think there is enough groundswell of support both sides of the border for a poll to be called and the demographics are only trending more in support of it.

I’m struggling with that part, I’d thinking both sides would be up here rather than down there.

I’d be happier if liberal prods could see the benefits first before asking a poll

All 10 of them?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 09:24:19 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?

I think there is enough groundswell of support both sides of the border for a poll to be called and the demographics are only trending more in support of it.

I’m struggling with that part, I’d thinking both sides would be up here rather than down there.

I’d be happier if liberal prods could see the benefits first before asking a poll

All 10 of them?

Well good luck with your attitude
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 22, 2021, 09:31:13 PM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?

I think there is enough groundswell of support both sides of the border for a poll to be called and the demographics are only trending more in support of it.

I’m struggling with that part, I’d thinking both sides would be up here rather than down there.

I’d be happier if liberal prods could see the benefits first before asking a poll

All 10 of them?

Seek Help Son
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rois on March 22, 2021, 09:51:59 PM
Discussion on this topic on CB Live at the minute
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:03:56 PM
Gregory Campbell exemplifying the entrenched intransigence of unionism. It's going to happen regardless of the tantrum they throw. They are not for turning, they don't want to be engaged.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: RedHand88 on March 22, 2021, 10:05:37 PM
Gregory Campbell exemplifying the entrenched intransigence of unionism. It's going to happen regardless of the tantrum they throw. They are not for turning, they don't want to be engaged.

There is no point trying to bring people like Gregory into the conversation. He offers nothing outside of no no never.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:06:39 PM
Gregory Campbell exemplifying the entrenched intransigence of unionism. It's going to happen regardless of the tantrum they throw. They are not for turning, they don't want to be engaged.

There is no point trying to bring people like Gregory into the conversation. He offers nothing outside of no no never.

Yes and that's the largest representation of unionism and loyalism.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 10:08:33 PM
I think that when the peace process got going the Brits made a tactical decision to reduce the risk of a return to violence by throwing money at the 6 counties. It would have been cheaper to invest in skills and productivity but they didn't.

https://youtu.be/PlGmYetiCjA
You are on the button here! Except it wasn't only Britain who offered the sweetner.
It may have seemed  strange back then that a number of different countries at the same time offered to chip in to help keep the Peace Process going but it wasn't  pure coincidence.
Canada, The US, France, Germany and Japan all seemed full of good will around the same time.
I found this out years later.
Seems John de Chastelain, the principal peace broker had persuaded a number of reputable countries to offer to put up all the money needed to allow the people of Ulster to end their economic dependence on the UK. A united Ireland just might be on but this was only hinted at --nothing explicit. Well the Prods didn't bite; they wanted the money sure enough but were afraid to take the first step. They were less distrustful of the Fenian bastards they were dealing with than they were of their own followers, waiting for them to make a slip.
I believe one of their negotiators (David Ervine, I think) said he was more afraid of being stabbed in the back than in the belly.)
(Reputable means ones that the Prods might trust.)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 10:18:26 PM
Look at that Andrew Trimble on the telly. Being reasonable, honest and balanced. But f**k him, he's a prod eh, no point talking to him.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:23:03 PM
Look at that Andrew Trimble on the telly. Being reasonable, honest and balanced. But f**k him, he's a prod eh, no point talking to him.

Bizarre attitude.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 10:24:21 PM
Look at that Andrew Trimble on the telly. Being reasonable, honest and balanced. But f**k him, he's a prod eh, no point talking to him.

Bizarre attitude.

Maybe he’s one of those 10 you were talking about
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Armagh18 on March 22, 2021, 10:24:37 PM
Look at that Andrew Trimble on the telly. Being reasonable, honest and balanced. But f**k him, he's a prod eh, no point talking to him.
What?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:26:56 PM
Look at that Andrew Trimble on the telly. Being reasonable, honest and balanced. But f**k him, he's a prod eh, no point talking to him.

Bizarre attitude.

Maybe he’s one of those 10 you were talking about

Yet it's the Gregory Campbells/Poots/Steve Aikens who are the elected voices of unionism
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: RedHand88 on March 22, 2021, 10:31:22 PM
Joe brolly is a national treasure.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: bannside on March 22, 2021, 10:31:59 PM
You beat me to it Milltown. Some people need to get out more.

I know many hundreds of very decent Protestant people. You know....the kind in the middle ground that can actually be won over to the idea of a UI......as long as they can feel safe and valued in that new arrangement.

I've not an ounce of time for anyone here who has any other kind of view.

Catholic Protestant and Dissenter.

Remember William Orr.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 10:32:24 PM
Standing ovation for Claire Byrne for cutting off that absolute gobshite! She humiliated him :D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:35:18 PM
Last week RTE gave Leo Varadkar a platform yo make sectarian comments against SF unchallenged.

Tonight Claire Byrne cuts off Brolly for making accurate comments on Gregory Campbell.


The names bias is beyond the pale.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:36:02 PM
Standing ovation for Claire Byrne for cutting off that absolute gobshite! She humiliated him :D

She humiliated herself.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trailer on March 22, 2021, 10:36:50 PM
Standing ovation for Claire Byrne for cutting off that absolute gobshite! She humiliated him :D

He just made a **** of himself..... again...
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: bannside on March 22, 2021, 10:37:26 PM
Thought Leo spoke very well, at least the one minute clip on CB Twitter feed.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 10:39:18 PM
Look at that Andrew Trimble on the telly. Being reasonable, honest and balanced. But f**k him, he's a prod eh, no point talking to him.

Bizarre attitude.

Maybe he’s one of those 10 you were talking about

Yet it's the Gregory Campbells/Poots/Steve Aikens who are the elected voices of unionism

By definition unionist voters will vote to stay in the union, it’s like like saying SF voters will not vote for a UI, I mentioned the mild prod voters on the left. But carry on making a dick of yourself
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:41:30 PM
Look at that Andrew Trimble on the telly. Being reasonable, honest and balanced. But f**k him, he's a prod eh, no point talking to him.

Bizarre attitude.

Maybe he’s one of those 10 you were talking about

Yet it's the Gregory Campbells/Poots/Steve Aikens who are the elected voices of unionism

By definition unionist voters will vote to stay in the union, it’s like like saying SF voters will not vote for a UI, I mentioned the mild prod voters on the left. But carry on making a dick of yourself

And Gregory Campbell is the elected voice of unionism and his views are widely shared. Who is the progressive voice of elected unionism?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 10:45:19 PM
You are either daft stupid or ignorant. I’ve not mentioned unionists, but carry on
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 10:45:41 PM
Standing ovation for Claire Byrne for cutting off that absolute gobshite! She humiliated him :D
Yeah, that little gobshite is beyond reprehensible.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 10:47:06 PM
You are either daft stupid or ignorant. I’ve not mentioned unionists, but carry on

I have. Intransigent unionists cannot be engaged, they don't want to be. They are not for turning. They will be left behind.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: An Watcher on March 22, 2021, 10:49:00 PM
Loyalists cannot be allowed to hold everyone to ransom. If there's a UI we'll bring out the gun. Seriously!!
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 22, 2021, 10:57:51 PM
So to summarize

Angelo hates people from the Republic and Protestants

Good luck in getting your socialist utopia
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 22, 2021, 11:01:31 PM
Jesus Martin is just a Terrible Taoiseach. He's supposes to be leading the republican party
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 11:02:06 PM
So to summarize

Angelo hates people from the Republic and Protestants

Good luck in getting your socialist utopia

He’s a fuckwit who’s grown up in some backward republican enclave who’s yet to meet anyone outside of his bedroom
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 11:02:22 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tubberman on March 22, 2021, 11:04:29 PM
Jesus Martin is just a Terrible Taoiseach. He's supposes to be leading the republican party

He's very poor. His shared island unit is all he wants to talk about, and nobody else is interested in it.
A poor communicator,  very uninspiring.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 11:09:58 PM
The Free State establishment are shaking in their boots.


Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 22, 2021, 11:17:11 PM
So to summarize

Angelo hates people from the Republic and Protestants

Good luck in getting your socialist utopia

I don't hate protestants. You might see the world in a polarising manner but I'm more enlightened and tolerant than you.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Armagh18 on March 22, 2021, 11:20:03 PM
Standing ovation for Claire Byrne for cutting off that absolute gobshite! She humiliated him :D
She really didn’t. What were you watching?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GJL on March 22, 2021, 11:21:38 PM
It is a good job Bruton is a thing of the past.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 11:21:56 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
Sid, I have enough demons of my own to tangle with so I don't want to enter the Angelo vs the rest of humanity controversy but I will say he's no fuckwit; he knows exactly what he is doing and is a top class debater when he chooses to be serious.
Brolly, on the other hand is totally serious all the time.  A very decent individual in some ways as when he offered to donate a kidney to someone with chronic kidney disease and an absolute bollix like the time he was commentating on am Ulster and he spent his time lampooning Tommy Freeman  who had put a Hilti nail though his hand and opted to play with his hand heavily bandaged.
I'd take Angelo any day before that narcissist. If people think they'll win a debate with Angelo or think they will get him to admit defeat at any time, they deserve a dunce's hat.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 22, 2021, 11:36:10 PM
So if we don’t admit to being wrong then you’re Angelo?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 11:46:12 PM
I never realised how much Bwyson looks like TinTin

His head also looks like an egg - more than Stephen Donnelly does

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Substandard on March 22, 2021, 11:48:52 PM
For a few reasons, I only saw bits of it- missed the whole Joe Brolly segment, although I gather it wasn't that long.

Mary Lou spoke well, I thought- carefully constructed, focused on being inclusive: buoyant and positive, and effective without getting snagged on what will undoubtedly be major thorny issues,  I thought.

I don't like Leo, full stop.  I think a lot of what comes from Fine Gael and Fianna Fail the last few years regarding Sinn Fein always seems to be snide and defensive.  It always seems so contrived that it becomes tiresome, and legitimate challenges therefore get diminished in the overall rhetoric. 

Micheal Martin reminds me so much of Enda Kenny, just less crude and more prissy.  I would class neither of them as a leader, let alone a statesman.  Maybe I just have an idealistic view of what I'd want politicians and cabinet members to be, but I try to imagine what a history book in 50 or 100 years time might read as defining or distinguishing features about them, and I can't see anything in them.  Bertie,  as despicable as he might be, will always have the Good Friday Agreement to his name.

I'm sorry I missed Trimble and the unionist take, although hearing Bryson and Campbell referenced shows the kind of span of a bridge that would be required.

So my conclusions from tonight, albeit on a limited basis,  would be the Irish government position is to sit on their hands and do nothing.  Yes, a huge amount of groundwork is required and all of this would take time, and yes it would be imperative to bring along the unionist population, including the most entrenched, but I didn't see any sign of impetus or desire from either Martin or Varadkar.

I get the feeling this will be a long, long thread before there is a poll, and then the aftermath.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 22, 2021, 11:49:01 PM
Niamh McElduff sounds like she's auditioning for the Rose of Tralee

She has a signed St. Kilda jersey in the background

No loaf of Kingsmills
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Brick Tamlin on March 22, 2021, 11:53:12 PM
Typical Tyrone dose.
Bring back the mucksavage thread
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 22, 2021, 11:56:03 PM
So if we don’t admit to being wrong then you’re Angelo?
Well, I won't disagree with you, yet  I can't agree with you. Because, either way, I don't understand you.  ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:07:17 AM
Mary Lou and Leo both very measured and cordial, thought there might have been a bit more bite with them to be honest. Both spoke well and even though I’m no fan of Leo he does deserve credit.

Brolly obviously getting dogs abuse for his cameo, no surprise there. Gregory Campbell with his usual sneering attitude added nothing to the programme and when Brolly called him on it he got  cut off. Nothing he said was untrue. That really annoyed me to be honest and I alluded to “pussyfooting” around Unionists before in this thread. Disappointing from RTÉ but no surprise at all.

Andrew Trimble and Naomi Long but spoke more diplomatically and sincerely and although they represent a small minority within the broader Unionism family they are the ones who will be pivotal in any future referendum.

Micheal Martin and John Bruton between them have about as much charisma as a bucket of shite.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Dougal Maguire on March 23, 2021, 01:13:08 AM
I would to have seen Bruton asked ‘Would you like to see a United Ireland?’ Personally I think he wouldn’t.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Never beat the deeler on March 23, 2021, 02:15:59 AM
I never realised how much Bwyson looks like TinTin

His head also looks like an egg - more than Stephen Donnelly does

https://uncyclopedia.ca/wiki/Jamie_Bryson (https://uncyclopedia.ca/wiki/Jamie_Bryson)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Armagh18 on March 23, 2021, 06:51:01 AM
Mary Lou and Leo both very measured and cordial, thought there might have been a bit more bite with them to be honest. Both spoke well and even though I’m no fan of Leo he does deserve credit.

Brolly obviously getting dogs abuse for his cameo, no surprise there. Gregory Campbell with his usual sneering attitude added nothing to the programme and when Brolly called him on it he got  cut off. Nothing he said was untrue. That really annoyed me to be honest and I alluded to “pussyfooting” around Unionists before in this thread. Disappointing from RTÉ but no surprise at all.

Andrew Trimble and Naomi Long but spoke more diplomatically and sincerely and although they represent a small minority within the broader Unionism family they are the ones who will be pivotal in any future referendum.

Micheal Martin and John Bruton between them have about as much charisma as a bucket of shite.
Yeah I’d agree with most of that.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 23, 2021, 08:22:13 AM
Its quite amusing to see the abuse here for Brolly. His crime? Calling out Gregory Campbell as rascist and homophobic. Well sorry folks thats exactly what he and his party are. I think Joe left out sectarian but maybe he was cut off too early. Very little ire for Gregory though, says a lot about some contributors.

However, I will say that Joe would have been better to make his point for a united Ireland instead of going the route he went but that doesn't make what he said untrue.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 23, 2021, 08:22:23 AM
I never realised how much Bwyson looks like TinTin

His head also looks like an egg - more than Stephen Donnelly does

Wonder if the Kinihan drug cartel had a "spokesperson" would they get as much airtime as wee Jamie on RTE?

Gregory being Gregory but needs to be asked how democratic he actually is when a majority decide on a UI. He's so used to the unionist veto on everything that its almost expected that they can do what they want when they want up North. 
Their centenary stone pish is emblematic of their attitude and those uppity croppys now putting a stop to it.

MaryLou and Vardakar talked sense with maybe varying timelines but thats to be expected. The 2040 nonsense spouted on here is ridiculous, 2028 is the date we should be preparing for.

Didn't get to see Joe but he's a soapbox and was always going to use it. Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island. He's dire.

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 08:27:29 AM
Its quite amusing to see the abuse here for Brolly. His crime? Calling out Gregory Campbell as rascist and homophobic. Well sorry folks thats exactly what he and his party are. I think Joe left out sectarian but maybe he was cut off too early. Very little ire for Gregory though, says a lot about some contributors.

However, I will say that Joe would have been better to make his point for a united Ireland instead of going the route he went but that doesn't make what he said untrue.
You've grudgingly pointed out what the problem with Joe's contribution was in your second paragraph

He wasn't constructive, he just descended into mudslinging
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 23, 2021, 08:35:46 AM
Its quite amusing to see the abuse here for Brolly. His crime? Calling out Gregory Campbell as rascist and homophobic. Well sorry folks thats exactly what he and his party are. I think Joe left out sectarian but maybe he was cut off too early. Very little ire for Gregory though, says a lot about some contributors.

However, I will say that Joe would have been better to make his point for a united Ireland instead of going the route he went but that doesn't make what he said untrue.
You've grudgingly pointed out what the problem with Joe's contribution was in your second paragraph

He wasn't constructive, he just descended into mudslinging

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2021, 08:38:42 AM
The partitionists can keep angling against it but it will happen in this decade despite all their efforts to prevent it.

What will happen in this decade? A poll, a referendum, a plan for a poll or a plan for a referendum?

I think there is enough groundswell of support both sides of the border for a poll to be called and the demographics are only trending more in support of it.

The demographics include a lot of nationalist kids who don't have a vote. Nothing will happen this decade.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 08:43:27 AM
I would to have seen Bruton asked ‘Would you like to see a United Ireland?’ Personally I think he wouldn’t.
Let's just say for hypotheticals Bruton had been asked that question and said no

What do you think the reaction would have been?

In my view, what likely would have happened is that he would have been subjected to a torrent of vicious abuse on social media and would likely have received death threats

Why? Because it's seen as taboo for a Catholic from the Republic to not want a united Ireland, or not care about whether a united Ireland happens

And that is not a healthy situation at all, it's a very unhealthy situation

It should not be seen as taboo for a southern Catholic to be against a united Ireland - that view should be afforded the same respect as any other

Presumably given you wanted Bruton to be put on the spot in a hectoring "YES/NO" manner, you'd like to have seen Trimble put on the spot in the same manner

"Andrew, are you in favour of a United Ireland - YES or NO"

"Well I'd prefer to talk about things we all have in common across the island and how we can work to work to build a better island based on mutual respect"

"No, Andrew, ANSWER THE QUESTION - are you in favour of a united Ireland or not?!"

Don't think think that would have been a good line of questioning

Interestingly, it hasn't been noted that Brolly said it wasn't a concern to him whether a united Ireland happened or not

Which I thought was the most interesting and considered part of his contribution



Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Mario on March 23, 2021, 08:48:29 AM
The FF/FG line is we aren't ready yet, we need to learn from the mistakes of Brexit etc. I think they will say this for all eternity. How much can you really resolve before hand, reach an agreement on the health service, education etc etc these things would take years even decades to sort out if there is no referendum, plus there will be no appetite from FG/FF/DUP to discuss them unless there is a vote for a UI that is successful. Is there a precedent for this type of thing. What happened with east and west Germany, didn't the whole process take about 18 months? And here we are discussing 2028 or 20never.

Have the vote soon and have longer transitional periods than Brexit (if it is successful) is my view or it will never happen.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 08:49:57 AM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 23, 2021, 09:11:06 AM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet

Happy to be proved wrong when you show me an instance when he showed leadership or backbone!
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Louther on March 23, 2021, 09:17:49 AM
Good debate and you got mainly what you expected from all parties.

The Unionist view - using the 2 as extreme ends was important to have. We know exactly their views and their intentions but if you leave them out you give them oxygen to fuel their exclusion in addition to their views. Including them gives the middle ground the chance to make up their own mind and take onboard all sides of the debate.

Trimble was interesting and he’d have the like of Rory McIlory in the same category - liked or not. Their is a large sway of people who are creating their own identity as Northern Irish from both sides and they will be key to whatever happens.

Brolly was Brolly and wanted to have his own debate. While his views on DUP are grounded, this wasn’t the debate for that. Thought he started well but went where no else was going. He milking it on twitter to prove the point he was making was right, without recognising that no one needed that point made.

MM was his usual self, glittery and unconfident. Doesn’t present well.

The teacher from Tyrone - think she was trying to interview for a house share in the holy lands.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 23, 2021, 09:28:26 AM
It was a much better debate than I had anticipated beforehand. I had feared that it had the capacity to descend into bitter acrimony. But then Ian Og pulled out and Joe got cut off.

As others have stated Mary Lou and Leo whilst both holding different political views, do appear to have a sort of grudging mutual respect, certainly more than with Micheal Martin. Joe as usual came onto the programme with a pre ordained agenda of mud slinging at the DUP. Whilst he didn't say anything that wasn't true, it probably wasn't the forum to go off on a tangent. It is a tricky one though since I often fell that RTE does often pander to northern unionism, quite often at the expense of nationalism. They do need to have their say but they also need to be called out on certain topics. After all, if the country is reunified they will be in a smaller proportion of the overall population than those who are deemed foreign nationals.   
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Taylor on March 23, 2021, 09:36:58 AM
Mary Lou & Leo had a reasoned debate - was actually refreshing to see that for a change and shows how things could be.

Poor Niamh from Carrickmore - she had a sheet in front of her and was clearly just trying to get everything in that was on the sheet. Had no intention of answering any question or having an informed debate.

Trimble is the type of person that will hold all of the aces in the UI debate - there are many more like him in the North and understanding and accepting their beliefs are vital.

Wee Seamie spoke surprisingly well for a change however his stance will never change. Gregory the same.

Joe wanted to run the show on his terms - was never going to happen in this format when he isnt in the studio but Claire Byrne was too quick to cut him off - she had obviously been warned. RTE bosses will be delighted to have got a cut at him.

Good show overall
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trailer on March 23, 2021, 09:37:58 AM
Good debate and you got mainly what you expected from all parties.

The Unionist view - using the 2 as extreme ends was important to have. We know exactly their views and their intentions but if you leave them out you give them oxygen to fuel their exclusion in addition to their views. Including them gives the middle ground the chance to make up their own mind and take onboard all sides of the debate.

Trimble was interesting and he’d have the like of Rory McIlory in the same category - liked or not. Their is a large sway of people who are creating their own identity as Northern Irish from both sides and they will be key to whatever happens.

Brolly was Brolly and wanted to have his own debate. While his views on DUP are grounded, this wasn’t the debate for that. Thought he started well but went where no else was going. He milking it on twitter to prove the point he was making was right, without recognising that no one needed that point made.

MM was his usual self, glittery and unconfident. Doesn’t present well.

The teacher from Tyrone - think she was trying to interview for a house share in the holy lands.

I agree with all of this. Brolly might be right but if you want Unionists to come along you have to try and not attack them at every turnaround. He offered nothing regardless if he was right.
Trimble is the real interesting character in all of this. In our bubbles we might view this as a binary Y/N choice. In reality there is a big cohort of people who don't identify with the politics of the DUP or SF.
Thought Mary Lou was a bit disingenuous. The idea that Stormont is beacon of political light is fanciful. In reality not a day goes by that the DUP and SF aren't working against one another. Stormont needs to work firstly. If it doesn't Unionists will never even think about a possible UI settlement. The DUP are as much to blame as SF in this regard.
McElduff was a weird one. For some reason wanted to prove her Ultra Irish credentials. Strange.
Bryson in his first communion suit was a highlight in what was a very serious debate.

There's a huge job of work to do.

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on March 23, 2021, 09:52:51 AM
Good debate and you got mainly what you expected from all parties.

The Unionist view - using the 2 as extreme ends was important to have. We know exactly their views and their intentions but if you leave them out you give them oxygen to fuel their exclusion in addition to their views. Including them gives the middle ground the chance to make up their own mind and take onboard all sides of the debate.

Trimble was interesting and he’d have the like of Rory McIlory in the same category - liked or not. Their is a large sway of people who are creating their own identity as Northern Irish from both sides and they will be key to whatever happens.

Brolly was Brolly and wanted to have his own debate. While his views on DUP are grounded, this wasn’t the debate for that. Thought he started well but went where no else was going. He milking it on twitter to prove the point he was making was right, without recognising that no one needed that point made.

MM was his usual self, glittery and unconfident. Doesn’t present well.

The teacher from Tyrone - think she was trying to interview for a house share in the holy lands.

I agree with all of this. Brolly might be right but if you want Unionists to come along you have to try and not attack them at every turnaround. He offered nothing regardless if he was right.
Trimble is the real interesting character in all of this. In our bubbles we might view this as a binary Y/N choice. In reality there is a big cohort of people who don't identify with the politics of the DUP or SF.
Thought Mary Lou was a bit disingenuous. The idea that Stormont is beacon of political light is fanciful. In reality not a day goes by that the DUP and SF aren't working against one another. Stormont needs to work firstly. If it doesn't Unionists will never even think about a possible UI settlement. The DUP are as much to blame as SF in this regard.
McElduff was a weird one. For some reason wanted to prove her Ultra Irish credentials. Strange.
Bryson in his first communion suit was a highlight in what was a very serious debate.

There's a huge job of work to do.

At least the discussion has started.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 23, 2021, 10:01:16 AM
Good debate and you got mainly what you expected from all parties.

The Unionist view - using the 2 as extreme ends was important to have. We know exactly their views and their intentions but if you leave them out you give them oxygen to fuel their exclusion in addition to their views. Including them gives the middle ground the chance to make up their own mind and take onboard all sides of the debate.

Trimble was interesting and he’d have the like of Rory McIlory in the same category - liked or not. Their is a large sway of people who are creating their own identity as Northern Irish from both sides and they will be key to whatever happens.

Brolly was Brolly and wanted to have his own debate. While his views on DUP are grounded, this wasn’t the debate for that. Thought he started well but went where no else was going. He milking it on twitter to prove the point he was making was right, without recognising that no one needed that point made.

MM was his usual self, glittery and unconfident. Doesn’t present well.

The teacher from Tyrone - think she was trying to interview for a house share in the holy lands.

I agree with all of this. Brolly might be right but if you want Unionists to come along you have to try and not attack them at every turnaround. He offered nothing regardless if he was right.
Trimble is the real interesting character in all of this. In our bubbles we might view this as a binary Y/N choice. In reality there is a big cohort of people who don't identify with the politics of the DUP or SF.
Thought Mary Lou was a bit disingenuous. The idea that Stormont is beacon of political light is fanciful. In reality not a day goes by that the DUP and SF aren't working against one another. Stormont needs to work firstly. If it doesn't Unionists will never even think about a possible UI settlement. The DUP are as much to blame as SF in this regard.
McElduff was a weird one. For some reason wanted to prove her Ultra Irish credentials. Strange.
Bryson in his first communion suit was a highlight in what was a very serious debate.

There's a huge job of work to do.

I think that is correct but moreso with the softer unionist types like Trimble/McIlroy/Best. Those types need to be respected, welcomed and heard and I honestly think that they will. Those are the type of people who will be crucial to the result of any future border poll.

However there is a large mixture of loyalists, religious fundamentalists, suprermacists and sectarian types who would eat grass before they could be reasoned with. They will simply never consider or vote for a UI under any circumstances. They will feel threatened but that does not mean they should not be called out on their views simply to appease them. There is a significant younger generation of softer Unionists (probably a lot of Alliance voters) who are equally abhorred by the DUP and the Jim Allister types. I think it was too early in the debate for Joe Brolly to be bringng it up last night though.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2021, 10:07:18 AM
Would people accept a smaller NI enclave if it meant the rest of the 6 counties became part of the South ?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: imtommygunn on March 23, 2021, 10:10:56 AM
A thing that grates on me is the use of the term "PUL" and I think the likes of the DUP are as guilty as anyone on creating this one. There are many different views in the "PUL". The extreme we hate everything Irish is not to be respected but I find it hard to believe the majority of people are like that. It's good to see that some of these shows have a more middle of the road person like Trimble on to represent these views.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 23, 2021, 10:11:14 AM
Would people accept a smaller NI enclave if it meant the rest of the 6 counties became part of the South ?

I honestly couldn't think of a worse idea. The repartitioning of partition? Look how it worked first time, surely we have learned the lessons from that.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 23, 2021, 10:26:57 AM
Would people accept a smaller NI enclave if it meant the rest of the 6 counties became part of the South ?

??

that's a big fat no from me. Jamie Bryson only lives 15 miles from me FFS.  ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 23, 2021, 10:28:56 AM
Duty called so I didn't see it.
Seems to have been decent enough so must try the player thingy.
I expected it would be a shouting match so didn't bother to record it.
The Referendum when or if it comes will be decided by the Alliance/"Northern Irish"/ soft unionist/middle ground people.

There was a survey in the Examiner back round November where 52% of young people said they were neither Nationalist nor Unionist.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: imtommygunn on March 23, 2021, 10:34:58 AM
Would people accept a smaller NI enclave if it meant the rest of the 6 counties became part of the South ?

??

that's a big fat no from me. Jamie Bryson only lives 15 miles from me FFS.  ;D

It doesn't make any sense to me either seafoid...

Middle of the road protestants (not unionists) and middle of the road catholics(not necessarily nationalists) are the areas need convinced like you say RF.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2021, 10:37:08 AM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet

Happy to be proved wrong when you show me an instance when he showed leadership or backbone!
As bad as Brookeborough or Arlene ?
Did Martin ever put the future of the unit he is charge of in jeopardy ? Arlene did
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 10:54:02 AM
I thought Sarah Creighton was interesting

She's a Unionist

But she also seems very liberal and sensible in her views on bread and butter political issues, she came across like she'd be in Labour or the Social Democrats if she was in the Republic

This is a section of Northern society we hear very little from - progressive women who are Unionists or from Unionist backgrounds

Sophie Long is one of the few others with any platform I can think of, maybe Linda Ervine is another one, I suppose Sylvia Hermon was too

But they are very marginalised in public debate and seem to have nowhere to go politically, which is a pity because they have a great deal to contribute, I think they're the most interesting demographic in NI







Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 23, 2021, 10:58:00 AM
Would people accept a smaller NI enclave if it meant the rest of the 6 counties became part of the South ?

Should we abandon a section of Irish citizens in a sectarian gerrymandered state designed to ensure they are in a minority?

Cos it worked so well the first time?

Christ Almighty.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 11:08:31 AM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet

Happy to be proved wrong when you show me an instance when he showed leadership or backbone!
I thought he showed excellent leadership in the marriage and abortion referendums even though much of his party was clearly not supportive in private

He led on the smoking ban and plastic bag tax

I wouldn't vote for him but I think he's a decent man, honest and a good listener, he isn't charismatic but I think that's a much overrated quality

In bare electoral terms he has been a success given where Fianna Fail were when he took over and I think whoever eventually takes over from him will lead the party to oblivion, their support is literally dying out

Fintan O'Toole wrote an article last summer which was quite praiseworthy of his time in politics

I don't think Fianna Fail had a decent man as leader before him since Jack Lynch, they were all sleveens and hucksters, Reynolds was the best leader they had in that time but he was still a huckster
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: pbat on March 23, 2021, 11:34:45 AM
Economics are going to win this argument, people like Bryson who wrap themselves in the flag are not worth wasting time talking to and Gregory will have his house on the market within days of a referendum and relocate to Surrey or somewhere. Its the Andrew Trimble's of this world, educated with young families from both sides need convincing.

I'm working in Dublin with a lad from Portadown who comes from a very loyalist family, would be aware of their history. He was working in London Monday - Friday but wanted to come home for his kids. He was offered a role with the two leading contractors in the North both offering him 50k. He took a role with us in Dublin on 80K euro, I was keeping him going about coming down to Dublin to take Irish money, his answer was "as Neil Diamond said Money Talks ".

I would also notice this boom in the south there is a lot more protestant lads coming down to work Monday to Friday than the Boom of 03-08, we have 3 crews on site one from Bangor, one from Ballymena and one from Enniskillen, wouldn't have seen them before. They are seeing the prosperity and want a bit of the action.

Another big thing coming down the tracks which will have a major impact is as soon as the Pandemic is over the Tories are going to privatise/sell of the NHS, American health providers are already circling. Free Health Care is about the only argument Ian Og or Jim Allister can role out. 

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 23, 2021, 12:00:05 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
To be fair Brolly was pointing out the anti abortion homophobia of the DUP and should have been asked to provide examples, which he did today on twitter.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 23, 2021, 12:00:15 PM
Economics are going to win this argument, people like Bryson who wrap themselves in the flag are not worth wasting time talking to and Gregory will have his house on the market within days of a referendum and relocate to Surrey or somewhere. Its the Andrew Trimble's of this world, educated with young families from both sides need convincing.

I'm working in Dublin with a lad from Portadown who comes from a very loyalist family, would be aware of their history. He was working in London Monday - Friday but wanted to come home for his kids. He was offered a role with the two leading contractors in the North both offering him 50k. He took a role with us in Dublin on 80K euro, I was keeping him going about coming down to Dublin to take Irish money, his answer was "as Neil Diamond said Money Talks ".

I would also notice this boom in the south there is a lot more protestant lads coming down to work Monday to Friday than the Boom of 03-08, we have 3 crews on site one from Bangor, one from Ballymena and one from Enniskillen, wouldn't have seen them before. They are seeing the prosperity and want a bit of the action.

Another big thing coming down the tracks which will have a major impact is as soon as the Pandemic is over the Tories are going to privatise/sell of the NHS, American health providers are already circling. Free Health Care is about the only argument Ian Og or Jim Allister can role out.

I think that is precisely it.

Before a border poll is called which will likely be in 5+ years there will need to be a body of work done in preparing the economic argument. Given that the poll can only be triggered by a British SOS it is likely that it will have a reasonable level of success when it does takes place. Therefore the middle 20% will be the deciding factor and that is where the economics come into play. Alliance politicians and their voter base will hold the key and this will not be based on identity but rather a pragmatic choice based on economics, health, education, rights, housing etc.

There will be foreign nationals voting in that poll as well and nobody knows how that would translate into a border poll but political unionism is so inward looking and entrenched that I can't imagine it holding much broad appeal particularly to a younger generation who can be swayed either way.

Unfortunately those with a voice in the media representing unionism tend to be the Allisters, Paisleys, Wilsons, Campbells of this world. A lot of younger unionists must despair at the calibre of politician they are producing.   

   
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 23, 2021, 12:04:41 PM
Would people accept a smaller NI enclave if it meant the rest of the 6 counties became part of the South ?

Should we abandon a section of Irish citizens in a sectarian gerrymandered state designed to ensure they are in a minority?

Cos it worked so well the first time?

Christ Almighty.
That was obviously a wind up post! Who da f**k wants another partition? f**king hell!
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 23, 2021, 12:04:53 PM
Sarah Creighton and Andrew Trimble represent a swathe of soft unionism which could be persuaded to accept some form of unity that reflects all identities. Calling an early poll will not help. I still believe that SF don't necessarily want an early poll but it is part of their strategy to keep debate going. Martin is out of his depth on all fronts not just on the unity debate.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:08:08 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

I don't think anyone denys that this will improve production in the North. However, consumption in the North is supported by a bung from Westminster every year, and therein lies the debate.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 23, 2021, 12:08:16 PM
The disappointing thing for me in last nights show was the failure of all the nationalist participants to point out that for all the talk from unionism for equality in the NI state, not on symbol from the nationalism is reflected in the official representation of the state. A lot of talk though on unionist symbols in a new Ireland.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 23, 2021, 12:09:27 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

I don't think anyone denys that this will improve production in the North. However, consumption in the North is supported by a bung from Westminster every year, and therein lies the debate.
If an agreed Ireland can be achieved the costs associated will be resolved. Britain would pay to be rid of us.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 23, 2021, 12:10:01 PM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet

Happy to be proved wrong when you show me an instance when he showed leadership or backbone!
I thought he showed excellent leadership in the marriage and abortion referendums even though much of his party was clearly not supportive in private

He led on the smoking ban and plastic bag tax

I wouldn't vote for him but I think he's a decent man, honest and a good listener, he isn't charismatic but I think that's a much overrated quality

In bare electoral terms he has been a success given where Fianna Fail were when he took over and I think whoever eventually takes over from him will lead the party to oblivion, their support is literally dying out

Fintan O'Toole wrote an article last summer which was quite praiseworthy of his time in politics

I don't think Fianna Fail had a decent man as leader before him since Jack Lynch, they were all sleveens and hucksters, Reynolds was the best leader they had in that time but he was still a huckster

You really are a parody of Eoghan Harris at this stage.







Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Hereiam on March 23, 2021, 12:10:33 PM
One thing people forget is that Westminster will want to saddle the north with a portion of the debt which the UK currently has built up. This will happen with Scotland as well if they do vote to leave, do not think for one minute that Westminster will just say "ok chaps off you go"
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:16:26 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

I don't think anyone denys that this will improve production in the North. However, consumption in the North is supported by a bung from Westminster every year, and therein lies the debate.
If an agreed Ireland can be achieved the costs associated will be resolved. Britain would pay to be rid of us.

I agree that Britain will be glad to get rid of us and should chip in accordingly. However, there is a confounding factor in that they do not want rid of Scotland and a careful formula is needed if NI is to get a lot of money after leaving and Scotland is not.

One thing people forget is that Westminster will want to saddle the north with a portion of the debt which the UK currently has built up. This will happen with Scotland as well if they do vote to leave, do not think for one minute that Westminster will just say "ok chaps off you go"

As I said if NI was alone I suspect the British would be open to negotiation on these matters, as NI contributes nothing to the ability to pay the debt at present,  but Scotland confuses things.

Perhaps the debt could be taken on by anyone wanting to remain British in the 6 counties, that should cause some thought among some.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 23, 2021, 12:19:23 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

I don't think anyone denys that this will improve production in the North. However, consumption in the North is supported by a bung from Westminster every year, and therein lies the debate.
If an agreed Ireland can be achieved the costs associated will be resolved. Britain would pay to be rid of us.

I agree that Britain will be glad to get rid of us and should chip in accordingly. However, there is a confounding factor in that they do not want rid of Scotland and a careful formula is needed if NI is to get a lot of money after leaving and Scotland is not.

One thing people forget is that Westminster will want to saddle the north with a portion of the debt which the UK currently has built up. This will happen with Scotland as well if they do vote to leave, do not think for one minute that Westminster will just say "ok chaps off you go"

As I said if NI was alone I suspect the British would be open to negotiation on these matters, as NI contributes nothing to the ability to pay the debt at present,  but Scotland confuses things.

Perhaps the debt could be taken on by anyone wanting to remain British in the 6 counties, that should cause some thought among some.
Scotland will be gone before they turn to here.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:26:07 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

I don't think anyone denys that this will improve production in the North. However, consumption in the North is supported by a bung from Westminster every year, and therein lies the debate.
If an agreed Ireland can be achieved the costs associated will be resolved. Britain would pay to be rid of us.

I agree that Britain will be glad to get rid of us and should chip in accordingly. However, there is a confounding factor in that they do not want rid of Scotland and a careful formula is needed if NI is to get a lot of money after leaving and Scotland is not.

One thing people forget is that Westminster will want to saddle the north with a portion of the debt which the UK currently has built up. This will happen with Scotland as well if they do vote to leave, do not think for one minute that Westminster will just say "ok chaps off you go"

As I said if NI was alone I suspect the British would be open to negotiation on these matters, as NI contributes nothing to the ability to pay the debt at present,  but Scotland confuses things.

Perhaps the debt could be taken on by anyone wanting to remain British in the 6 counties, that should cause some thought among some.
Scotland will be gone before they turn to here.

That's a scenario, that Scotland heads off soon and that they are sorted. Then Scotland leaving is bound to rev things up here.
However, it would be wise if some smart person devises a financial model that gives the right answer for Scotland and NI, and if that was used for Scotland to avoid any disputes afterwards. The only other observation is that model based on the present contribution of the place would also be quite favourable to Wales. The Welsh will not head off on their own, but if Scotland and NI both leave they might well want to do so as well.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 23, 2021, 12:35:21 PM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet

Happy to be proved wrong when you show me an instance when he showed leadership or backbone!
As bad as Brookeborough or Arlene ?
Did Martin ever put the future of the unit he is charge of in jeopardy ? Arlene did

In all fairness Arlene is a whole new level of incompetence along with the other leaders currently directing operations in the DUP.

TBH I'd my Dublin centric hat on when I made that statement about Micheal Martin.

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: imtommygunn on March 23, 2021, 12:59:44 PM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet

Happy to be proved wrong when you show me an instance when he showed leadership or backbone!
As bad as Brookeborough or Arlene ?
Did Martin ever put the future of the unit he is charge of in jeopardy ? Arlene did

In all fairness Arlene is a whole new level of incompetence along with the other leaders currently directing operations in the DUP.

TBH I'd my Dublin centric hat on when I made that statement about Micheal Martin.

A bigger question is who is the leader? Is it really Arlene?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 23, 2021, 01:03:31 PM
Micheal is Micheal, the worse leader of any political party in the history of this Island.
You can find any opinion on the internet

Happy to be proved wrong when you show me an instance when he showed leadership or backbone!
As bad as Brookeborough or Arlene ?
Did Martin ever put the future of the unit he is charge of in jeopardy ? Arlene did

In all fairness Arlene is a whole new level of incompetence along with the other leaders currently directing operations in the DUP.

TBH I'd my Dublin centric hat on when I made that statement about Micheal Martin.

A bigger question is who is the leader? Is it really Arlene?

It's definitely not Arlene as Sammy, Poots, Ian O'G, Jeffery et all just ignore her and undermine her at every cut and turn. Hard to know what's going on there.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: imtommygunn on March 23, 2021, 01:05:58 PM
It used to be said it was Dodds in charge but he's gone all quiet. They are definitely very fractured at present. There is a little bit of distraction going on too I suspect but definitely the bold Sammy is on a solo run.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: weareros on March 23, 2021, 01:10:29 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
To be fair Brolly was pointing out the anti abortion homophobia of the DUP and should have been asked to provide examples, which he did today on twitter.

He was right. People like Campbell are horrid individuals. But there’s lots of Catholics North and South, and in the GAA who are homophobic. There’s still a huge number who are anti-abortion in the South. And many Catholic Sinn Fein and SDLP voters in North and FF/FG voters in South are anti-abortion. Northern Catholics are more conservative. The Dana’s of the world. In an eventual United Ireland there will be a bigger population of anti-abortion and anti-marriage equality. So not sure what Joe’s point was. Those Gregory Campbell views won’t go away in a UI - they will only get stronger. And the left/right divide on social issues will grow more intense.

Thought it was a good show overall. Was a bit surprised that both Mary Lou and Leo were cagey on the flag question and anthem. It’s as well to be honest with the people and say there will be a new flag. But I suppose neither wanted a headline that they were getting rid of it. Got to protect those Southern votes.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 23, 2021, 01:13:59 PM
Is there a progressive voice in Unionist politics?

Is there anyone from the UUP/DUP side that you could genuinely say is trying to build a better society for the O6?

Some of the bigoted nonsense their elected officials come out are beyond the pale. Yer one Rosemary Barton coming out and saying people talking about GAA in the workplace was latent intimidation being a prime example. Everything about mainstream unionist politics is to incite, stoke and enflame sectarian tensions - that's their modus operandi so can people please tell us how we can engage with talks of a United Ireland with them?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 01:15:59 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
To be fair Brolly was pointing out the anti abortion homophobia of the DUP and should have been asked to provide examples, which he did today on twitter.
The DUP are homophobic and in my view they are racist and white supremacist

Byrne cut Brolly off primarily because he used the word racism about Campbell

Ireland's defamation laws are draconian

RTE had to pay out 20k just last week because of what that far right troll I won't name said when he was on PrimeTime recently

They also had to pay out a much bigger sum again to homophobe John Waters, just because he was called a homophobe on RTE

I wouldn't be surprised that's the last we see of Brolly on RTE - for a long time at least - because any time he's on he's liable to say something that will cost them money



Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 01:22:43 PM

A bigger question is who is the leader? Is it really Arlene?

It's definitely not Arlene as Sammy, Poots, Ian O'G, Jeffery et all just ignore her and undermine her at every cut and turn. Hard to know what's going on there.
I don't think it's hard to understand

Foster is a woman

That's the reason
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 23, 2021, 01:23:02 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
To be fair Brolly was pointing out the anti abortion homophobia of the DUP and should have been asked to provide examples, which he did today on twitter.
The DUP are homophobic and in my view they are racist and white supremacist

Byrne cut Brolly off primarily because he used the word racism about Campbell

Ireland's defamation laws are draconian

RTE had to pay out 20k just last week because of what that far right troll I won't name said when he was on PrimeTime recently

They also had to pay out a much bigger sum again to homophobe John Waters, just because he was called a homophobe on RTE

I wouldn't be surprised that's the last we see of Brolly on RTE - for a long time at least - because any time he's on he's liable to say something that will cost them money

Yet Brian Dobson let Leo Varadkar make comments about SF being sectarian (noting vague or implied about it as it was very explicit using that exact label) which were later proven to be utterly false. Dobson allowed those comments to go unchecked and unchallenged.

So once again you make a very watery comment to defend the indefensible.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: keep her low this half on March 23, 2021, 01:23:47 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
To be fair Brolly was pointing out the anti abortion homophobia of the DUP and should have been asked to provide examples, which he did today on twitter.

He was right. People like Campbell are horrid individuals. But there’s lots of Catholics North and South, and in the GAA who are homophobic. There’s still a huge number who are anti-abortion in the South. And many Catholic Sinn Fein and SDLP voters in North and FF/FG voters in South are anti-abortion. Northern Catholics are more conservative. The Dana’s of the world. In an eventual United Ireland there will be a bigger population of anti-abortion and anti-marriage equality. So not sure what Joe’s point was. Those Gregory Campbell views won’t go away in a UI - they will only get stronger. And the left/right divide on social issues will grow more intense.

Thought it was a good show overall. Was a bit surprised that both Mary Lou and Leo were cagey on the flag question and anthem. It’s as well to be honest with the people and say there will be a new flag. But I suppose neither wanted a headline that they were getting rid of it. Got to protect those Southern votes.

To be honest I think the politicians are behind the people on this. Every opinion poll in the south has re-unification over 70% when don't knows are excluded. FF and FG are playing it long due to party political interests but recent contributions from Jim O Callaghan and Bertie Ahern as well as Leo's nuanced performance last night tend to suggest both parties are adjusting their position. Very surprised that a citizens assembly was not discussed last night during all the talk of planning. Micheal has hung himself on a hook saying no border poll during this Dail and as a result is the most negative Southern politician at present (excluding the retired John Bruton). Decent program overall although I thought Byrne was too keen to talk about flags for a headline and not address schools, health, economy which are the actual things that will affect the floating vote.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: five points on March 23, 2021, 01:25:55 PM

RTE had to pay out 20k just last week because of what that far right troll I won't name said when he was on PrimeTime recently


They didn't have to. There is no such thing in law as defaming a political party.  RTE freely chose to pay out that money.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 01:32:11 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

I don't think anyone denys that this will improve production in the North. However, consumption in the North is supported by a bung from Westminster every year, and therein lies the debate.
If an agreed Ireland can be achieved the costs associated will be resolved. Britain would pay to be rid of us.

I agree that Britain will be glad to get rid of us and should chip in accordingly. However, there is a confounding factor in that they do not want rid of Scotland and a careful formula is needed if NI is to get a lot of money after leaving and Scotland is not.

One thing people forget is that Westminster will want to saddle the north with a portion of the debt which the UK currently has built up. This will happen with Scotland as well if they do vote to leave, do not think for one minute that Westminster will just say "ok chaps off you go"

As I said if NI was alone I suspect the British would be open to negotiation on these matters, as NI contributes nothing to the ability to pay the debt at present,  but Scotland confuses things.

Perhaps the debt could be taken on by anyone wanting to remain British in the 6 counties, that should cause some thought among some.
Scotland will be gone before they turn to here.

That's a scenario, that Scotland heads off soon and that they are sorted. Then Scotland leaving is bound to rev things up here.
However, it would be wise if some smart person devises a financial model that gives the right answer for Scotland and NI, and if that was used for Scotland to avoid any disputes afterwards. The only other observation is that model based on the present contribution of the place would also be quite favourable to Wales. The Welsh will not head off on their own, but if Scotland and NI both leave they might well want to do so as well.
Personally I think Scotland leaving is a prerequisite for NI voting for unification, at least in say, the next 30/40 years or so

NI Unionists have a much bigger identification with Scotland than with England

In the same way that Brexit was a major sea change in terms of making the environment for Scottish independence much more favourable, if the Scots leave, it could cause a sea change in how a lot of Unionists think about the Union - because the Union would effectively no longer exist - it would likely cause a domino effect, with the Welsh maybe wanting to leave too,

And whatever happened NI and Scotland would be in separate states for ever more

Sturgeon being cleared yesterday could be an important event in terms of the future history of this island
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: weareros on March 23, 2021, 01:41:08 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
To be fair Brolly was pointing out the anti abortion homophobia of the DUP and should have been asked to provide examples, which he did today on twitter.

He was right. People like Campbell are horrid individuals. But there’s lots of Catholics North and South, and in the GAA who are homophobic. There’s still a huge number who are anti-abortion in the South. And many Catholic Sinn Fein and SDLP voters in North and FF/FG voters in South are anti-abortion. Northern Catholics are more conservative. The Dana’s of the world. In an eventual United Ireland there will be a bigger population of anti-abortion and anti-marriage equality. So not sure what Joe’s point was. Those Gregory Campbell views won’t go away in a UI - they will only get stronger. And the left/right divide on social issues will grow more intense.

Thought it was a good show overall. Was a bit surprised that both Mary Lou and Leo were cagey on the flag question and anthem. It’s as well to be honest with the people and say there will be a new flag. But I suppose neither wanted a headline that they were getting rid of it. Got to protect those Southern votes.

To be honest I think the politicians are behind the people on this. Every opinion poll in the south has re-unification over 70% when don't knows are excluded. FF and FG are playing it long due to party political interests but recent contributions from Jim O Callaghan and Bertie Ahern as well as Leo's nuanced performance last night tend to suggest both parties are adjusting their position. Very surprised that a citizens assembly was not discussed last night during all the talk of planning. Micheal has hung himself on a hook saying no border poll during this Dail and as a result is the most negative Southern politician at present (excluding the retired John Bruton). Decent program overall although I thought Byrne was too keen to talk about flags for a headline and not address schools, health, economy which are the actual things that will affect the floating vote.

Agreed on pols behind. In fact if Martin had an ounce of strategic sense, he’d be eager to get all this sorted including the border poll date before he leaves government - and be remembered for something groundbreaking. In fact, if Leo survives the leak scandal I’d be willing to bet he will do it in his 2 year term and part of his reelection pitch will be, the middle minority in North will only vote for a UI (let’s say it’s 2029/9 which would fall in term of next gov if current survives full term) if FG are in power as we are not threatening to the Middle. Not saying he’s right, but that is how it could play out providing British are willing to play ball.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 01:48:31 PM
Personally I think Scotland leaving is a prerequisite for NI voting for unification, at least in say, the next 30/40 years or so

NI Unionists have a much bigger identification with Scotland than with England

In the same way that Brexit was a major sea change in terms of making the environment for Scottish independence much more favourable, if the Scots leave, it could cause a sea change in how a lot of Unionists think about the Union - because the Union would effectively no longer exist - it would likely cause a domino effect, with the Welsh maybe wanting to leave too,

And whatever happened NI and Scotland would be in separate states for ever more

Sturgeon being cleared yesterday could be an important event in terms of the future history of this island

Scotland leaving would be influential, but I would still wonder if they will. I have no doubt Scotland will thrive if independent but they have to get from here to there and the UK will definitely be giving them debt and expecting them to pay their own pensions.

If Scotland does not leave I would expect NI to still leave within 30 years. When the core unionist vote becomes one third then all it requires is for nationalists to get organised once.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2021, 01:53:43 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones. 
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 01:55:34 PM
Economics are going to win this argument, people like Bryson who wrap themselves in the flag are not worth wasting time talking to and Gregory will have his house on the market within days of a referendum and relocate to Surrey or somewhere. Its the Andrew Trimble's of this world, educated with young families from both sides need convincing.

I'm working in Dublin with a lad from Portadown who comes from a very loyalist family, would be aware of their history. He was working in London Monday - Friday but wanted to come home for his kids. He was offered a role with the two leading contractors in the North both offering him 50k. He took a role with us in Dublin on 80K euro, I was keeping him going about coming down to Dublin to take Irish money, his answer was "as Neil Diamond said Money Talks ".

I would also notice this boom in the south there is a lot more protestant lads coming down to work Monday to Friday than the Boom of 03-08, we have 3 crews on site one from Bangor, one from Ballymena and one from Enniskillen, wouldn't have seen them before. They are seeing the prosperity and want a bit of the action.


Another big thing coming down the tracks which will have a major impact is as soon as the Pandemic is over the Tories are going to privatise/sell of the NHS, American health providers are already circling. Free Health Care is about the only argument Ian Og or Jim Allister can role out.
Don't think you can draw conclusions that they would vote Yes in a border poll from any of that though

Like, many Irish who have a vote here work in England but if there was a referendum on whether Ireland should leave the EU and join the same economic zone as Britain I highly doubt they'd be voting Yes

People's personal economic decisions about where to live or work remain very much divorced from the united Ireland issue I think

Economic arguments always favour the status quo - the status quo is a known quantity - to change the status quo is a leap of faith

Economic arguments favoured the status quo in the Scottish referendum, the 1995 Quebec independence referendum, and they did with Brexit too - it was blood and soil nationalism and the dangling of fantasy, not solid economic arguments, that won the referendum for Brexit
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 23, 2021, 02:29:19 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

I don't think anyone denys that this will improve production in the North. However, consumption in the North is supported by a bung from Westminster every year, and therein lies the debate.
If an agreed Ireland can be achieved the costs associated will be resolved. Britain would pay to be rid of us.

I agree that Britain will be glad to get rid of us and should chip in accordingly. However, there is a confounding factor in that they do not want rid of Scotland and a careful formula is needed if NI is to get a lot of money after leaving and Scotland is not.

One thing people forget is that Westminster will want to saddle the north with a portion of the debt which the UK currently has built up. This will happen with Scotland as well if they do vote to leave, do not think for one minute that Westminster will just say "ok chaps off you go"

As I said if NI was alone I suspect the British would be open to negotiation on these matters, as NI contributes nothing to the ability to pay the debt at present,  but Scotland confuses things.

Perhaps the debt could be taken on by anyone wanting to remain British in the 6 counties, that should cause some thought among some.
Scotland will be gone before they turn to here.

That's a scenario, that Scotland heads off soon and that they are sorted. Then Scotland leaving is bound to rev things up here.
However, it would be wise if some smart person devises a financial model that gives the right answer for Scotland and NI, and if that was used for Scotland to avoid any disputes afterwards. The only other observation is that model based on the present contribution of the place would also be quite favourable to Wales. The Welsh will not head off on their own, but if Scotland and NI both leave they might well want to do so as well.
Personally I think Scotland leaving is a prerequisite for NI voting for unification, at least in say, the next 30/40 years or so

NI Unionists have a much bigger identification with Scotland than with England

In the same way that Brexit was a major sea change in terms of making the environment for Scottish independence much more favourable, if the Scots leave, it could cause a sea change in how a lot of Unionists think about the Union - because the Union would effectively no longer exist - it would likely cause a domino effect, with the Welsh maybe wanting to leave too,

And whatever happened NI and Scotland would be in separate states for ever more

Sturgeon being cleared yesterday could be an important event in terms of the future history of this island

Personally I don't think it is a prerequisite at all. Yes, it would make a border poll here virtually inevitable almost immediately but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a border poll here within 30/40 years even if Scotland voted to stay in the UK. It makes far more sense for Scotland to stay inside the UK given the potential issues of a land border which we know all about from the outworkings of Brexit.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 23, 2021, 02:54:02 PM
Does anyone here recall Nell McCafferty?
Years ago when Mary Harney was a government minister, Nell appeared on a current affairs program and government policies came up in the discussion. Without warning she passed a sneering remark about Harney’s ability to do her job properly since she was more concerned with her drink than her duties.  (These may not have been her exact words but this what she was inferring.)
The presenter cut her off immediately and apologised to her audience, saying RTE dtd not condone her remarks but Mary H sued for defamation and won her case. RTE was also sued and lost heavily.
Ever since then the station has had a very rigid set of protocols. I suppose all stations have their own guidelines for guests appearing on their programs but  Donnybrook is paranoid about this.
So Brolly knew full well that he could not accuse a named, living person who wasn’t there to defend himself. IMO, he just might have gotten away with if he'd retracted his remark and maybe passed it off as a slip of the tongue but he didn’t and continued to remonstrate even after his sound was cut off. He’s been on that station long enough to know the ropes. He had already been taken off the Sunday Game for another breach of RTE guidelines so I can’t feel sorry for him.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 23, 2021, 02:56:59 PM
Wouldn't be a big fan of Bruton but I thought he was very sensible

Brolly flunked that big time

Went the Angelo route

Didn't work at all, unsurprisingly

Claire Byrne is very distracting, a standing ovation indeed, but make sure not to stand up
To be fair Brolly was pointing out the anti abortion homophobia of the DUP and should have been asked to provide examples, which he did today on twitter.

He was right. People like Campbell are horrid individuals. But there’s lots of Catholics North and South, and in the GAA who are homophobic. There’s still a huge number who are anti-abortion in the South. And many Catholic Sinn Fein and SDLP voters in North and FF/FG voters in South are anti-abortion. Northern Catholics are more conservative. The Dana’s of the world. In an eventual United Ireland there will be a bigger population of anti-abortion and anti-marriage equality. So not sure what Joe’s point was. Those Gregory Campbell views won’t go away in a UI - they will only get stronger. And the left/right divide on social issues will grow more intense.

Thought it was a good show overall. Was a bit surprised that both Mary Lou and Leo were cagey on the flag question and anthem. It’s as well to be honest with the people and say there will be a new flag. But I suppose neither wanted a headline that they were getting rid of it. Got to protect those Southern votes.

To be honest I think the politicians are behind the people on this. Every opinion poll in the south has re-unification over 70% when don't knows are excluded. FF and FG are playing it long due to party political interests but recent contributions from Jim O Callaghan and Bertie Ahern as well as Leo's nuanced performance last night tend to suggest both parties are adjusting their position. Very surprised that a citizens assembly was not discussed last night during all the talk of planning. Micheal has hung himself on a hook saying no border poll during this Dail and as a result is the most negative Southern politician at present (excluding the retired John Bruton). Decent program overall although I thought Byrne was too keen to talk about flags for a headline and not address schools, health, economy which are the actual things that will affect the floating vote.
And to be fair to ML she did say that in any conversations she is having the health service and economy always come before flags and emblems. There is always room for agreement on Flags and emblems, but the wavering vote will be persuaded by economics. Interesting to hear Campbell admit that there was 3 minorities now.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Itchy on March 23, 2021, 02:58:26 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Lad, you don't know an awful lot about the north do you?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 23, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
One thing an Independent Scotland would do is end "British" Nationality.
Wonder what the reduced United Kingdom would then call itself?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 23, 2021, 03:01:58 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
The North is not as polarised as you think. Yes in working class loyalist and republican grass roots areas it probably is. But there is a large swathe on either side of the Alliance vote that would not be too far apart. They will prefer a particular outcome but will happily accept a vote either way. For a UI to succeed money will need spent in these deprived areas to  keep a lid on things. In general there is no appetite for war in either direction.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: balladmaker on March 23, 2021, 03:23:31 PM
The good news is that the conversation is well under way, the UI train has left the station and there's no going back.  Whenever we see successive polls of reputation showing a majority for reunification, that's the time to set the border poll date.  That majority doesn't appear to be there yet.  I for one don't want to see a border poll happening too soon only for it to be lost, it needs to be won and won well at the first attempt.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Taylor on March 23, 2021, 03:27:32 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Correct Michael however the only thing this proves is that Westminster is propping up NI with billions per year.

If that payment starts reducing then this place is fooked.

Many English people (including politicians) couldnt care less if NI is part of the UK or not
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trailer on March 23, 2021, 03:28:11 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trailer on March 23, 2021, 03:32:16 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.

I should also add that the DUP and their "Britishness" is very far removed from what the everyday English person relates to. Brits are for the most part Liberal in their outlook. They are not the right wing Christian fundamentalists that the DUP for the most part are. Brits look at them and shake their heads.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 23, 2021, 03:32:31 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Probably one of the reasons why Brexit has and may be even more unstabilising for the North is the economic impact it will have.
The UK Exports have taken a fair old hammering in the last few months, unless that is addressed ASAP a lot of businesses may go to the wall never to return as trading in the Asian markets and getting deals there isn't going to be a quick thing.

We really haven't seen how that is going to impact here as yet. It may well be beneficial to have access to the German (5th), French (7th), Italian (9th) and Spanish (11th) markets than the UK market

The NI Protocol is meant to be the best of both worlds. If that really is the case then the economic case for a UI may be dented.

Whitehall will need to make good on the promises that EU funding streams will be maintained. That and any hit to the £8B subvention will have the middle ground looking south potentially.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 04:23:40 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.
What good is being part of the 6th biggest economy if you contribute nothing to it? Why, almost 25 years post GFA is NI still one of the worst-off regions in the UK? What exactly is the benefit of being part of this “6th biggest economy”?

 In reality the UK economy is centred around London and the south east of England - where fiscal decisions are made which benefit the people who live and work there the most. That’s why (as already mentioned) Unionists are expendable and have and will continue to be used by the tories as and when they feel like it. And of course the DUP like good little bootlickers will go back asking for more.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 04:47:37 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.
Little Englanders and Little Englander media do care about the Union

The hit job on Sturgeon over the last few weeks demonstrates this, they'd do anything to try and bury Scottish independence

But they don't care about the people in other parts of the Union

They see the other parts of the Union as England's plaything, as a sort of Greater England, as lebensraum

It's another version of have cake and eat it
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: five points on March 23, 2021, 05:17:46 PM

Little Englanders and Little Englander media do care about the Union

The hit job on Sturgeon over the last few weeks demonstrates this, they'd do anything to try and bury Scottish independence

But they don't care about the people in other parts of the Union

They see the other parts of the Union as England's plaything, as a sort of Greater England, as lebensraum

It's another version of have cake and eat it

I hear you're a Little Englander now, Alex Salmond?  ::) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 06:03:34 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.
What good is being part of the 6th biggest economy if you contribute nothing to it? Why, almost 25 years post GFA is NI still one of the worst-off regions in the UK? What exactly is the benefit of being part of this “6th biggest economy”?

 In reality the UK economy is centred around London and the south east of England - where fiscal decisions are made which benefit the people who live and work there the most. That’s why (as already mentioned) Unionists are expendable and have and will continue to be used by the tories as and when they feel like it. And of course the DUP like good little bootlickers will go back asking for more.
Support to workers and business during recent pandemic and development and roll-out of vaccine spring to mind.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 06:07:41 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.

I should also add that the DUP and their "Britishness" is very far removed from what the everyday English person relates to. Brits are for the most part Liberal in their outlook. They are not the right wing Christian fundamentalists that the DUP for the most part are. Brits look at them and shake their heads.
I that the same 'everyday English person' that voted Brexit?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 06:10:35 PM
Support to workers and business during recent pandemic and development and roll-out of vaccine spring to mind.
You’re right michaelg, remiss of me to overlook the support given to businesses during the pandemic, especially companies owned by Conservative party donors and pals of the tories... how many £bns of taxpayers money do you reckon has been thrown away? Who needs tenders anyway?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 23, 2021, 06:49:37 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 07:23:28 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: tonto1888 on March 23, 2021, 07:26:12 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

Was it not the least that was expected from them?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 07:34:34 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

Was it not the least that was expected from them?
Had never considered what might happen in the event of a global pandemic.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 23, 2021, 07:49:29 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40249826.html
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: APM on March 23, 2021, 07:50:42 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html (https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html)
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.
What good is being part of the 6th biggest economy if you contribute nothing to it? Why, almost 25 years post GFA is NI still one of the worst-off regions in the UK? What exactly is the benefit of being part of this “6th biggest economy”?

 In reality the UK economy is centred around London and the south east of England - where fiscal decisions are made which benefit the people who live and work there the most. That’s why (as already mentioned) Unionists are expendable and have and will continue to be used by the tories as and when they feel like it. And of course the DUP like good little bootlickers will go back asking for more.
Support to workers and business during recent pandemic and development and roll-out of vaccine spring to mind.

If anything the support to workers and businesses in the south was at least as generous as in the UK if not more.  Irish businesses received a wage subsidy if they could demonstrate that their turnover was substantially reduced and it was paid for the entire workforce, not just in the case of furloughed workers.  Like furlough, it was a blunt instrument, but it supported companies that traded through the pandemic at serious increased cost, unlike the furlough scheme which only supported workers that were sent / had to stay at home.  Business support in NI was in the form of Covid loans, which had to be repaid.  This wasn't the case with the wage subsidy which was a generous subsidy to businesses to keep their workers on the books. 

Ask ExcludedNI about the support for NI businesses. 
https://twitter.com/excludedni?lang=en
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 23, 2021, 07:59:03 PM
Jesus!! My dick is bigger than your dick posts!

Wise up
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: ardtole on March 23, 2021, 08:56:03 PM
The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: pbat on March 23, 2021, 09:26:02 PM
I'd say Jim's push on Martin isnt far off.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: ardtole on March 23, 2021, 09:37:03 PM
Too late for Jim. Miceal will see his 2 years out and ff will be looking at signifigant seat losses at the next election.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 09:43:09 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

Not especially good. When things were bad in the North-West in the autumn there was a stat that a business in Strabane that was closed was getting one third as much as in a business in Letterkenny.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: APM on March 23, 2021, 10:00:05 PM
Jesus!! My dick is bigger than your dick posts!

Wise up

Are you talking about what I posted? 

Definitely not written in that spirit.  I'd be the first to acknowledge that many elements of Irish economy / social policy are not good - inflation, housing, health etc.  There are valid criticisms of corporate taxation / FDI policy.  The only point I was trying to make was that the Irish government has been very nimble about using state aid to support businesses and it is a seriously business friendly set up. There would be many businesses in NI that would have given their right arm for the wage subsidy available in the south as there was nothing available to them up here. It was an incredibly generous scheme. 

The broader debate is all swings and roundabouts when looked at in terms of current policies and economics.  The big question is what is the vision for the future and all of that seems to be stacked in favour of nationalists. 

As has been the case throughout Brexit, the DUP's position, continues to put NI's place in the union at risk.  Ironically, the full and successful implementation of the protocol is more likely to result in NI remaining part of the UK, since it will mean that NI businesses will have more to lose when leaving the UK - unfettered access to GB market and the foot in both camps giving strong potential for inward investment of goods manufacturers.  The fact that the protocol doesn't cover services weakens this argument.  However, businesses will not want to lose the "best of both worlds" benefit.  Many may be vociferous in highlighting the challenges given to them by the protocol, but if it was removed entirely there would be serious regret. 

Again, ironically, failure to implement the protocol properly is now a driver for a UI in my view.  Both the EU and Ireland are depending on the UK to apply the protocol (or mind the backdoor), and if they cannot be trusted to implement it properly, then what are the long term consequences for the integrity of the Single Market and Ireland's place in that market. I do not think that the DUP realise just how fundamental this issue is.   It was interesting that Varadkar mentioned Joint Authority last night.  It would be interesting to look at that through the lens of government who desperately need the protocol to work and are watching politicians setting fire to it, with even district councils being allowed to undermine an international treaty.  A UI or joint authority would give the Irish government / EU proper control over the backdoor and that will be a key factor behind the scenes as long as the EU lasts.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: APM on March 23, 2021, 10:00:54 PM
The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring

See my post above - last paragraph
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 23, 2021, 10:07:17 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 23, 2021, 10:31:00 PM
Jesus!! My dick is bigger than your dick posts!

Wise up

Are you talking about what I posted? 

Definitely not written in that spirit.  I'd be the first to acknowledge that many elements of Irish economy / social policy are not good - inflation, housing, health etc.  There are valid criticisms of corporate taxation / FDI policy.  The only point I was trying to make was that the Irish government has been very nimble about using state aid to support businesses and it is a seriously business friendly set up. There would be many businesses in NI that would have given their right arm for the wage subsidy available in the south as there was nothing available to them up here. It was an incredibly generous scheme. 

The broader debate is all swings and roundabouts when looked at in terms of current policies and economics.  The big question is what is the vision for the future and all of that seems to be stacked in favour of nationalists. 

As has been the case throughout Brexit, the DUP's position, continues to put NI's place in the union at risk.  Ironically, the full and successful implementation of the protocol is more likely to result in NI remaining part of the UK, since it will mean that NI businesses will have more to lose when leaving the UK - unfettered access to GB market and the foot in both camps giving strong potential for inward investment of goods manufacturers.  The fact that the protocol doesn't cover services weakens this argument.  However, businesses will not want to lose the "best of both worlds" benefit.  Many may be vociferous in highlighting the challenges given to them by the protocol, but if it was removed entirely there would be serious regret. 

Again, ironically, failure to implement the protocol properly is now a driver for a UI in my view.  Both the EU and Ireland are depending on the UK to apply the protocol (or mind the backdoor), and if they cannot be trusted to implement it properly, then what are the long term consequences for the integrity of the Single Market and Ireland's place in that market. I do not think that the DUP realise just how fundamental this issue is.   It was interesting that Varadkar mentioned Joint Authority last night.  It would be interesting to look at that through the lens of government who desperately need the protocol to work and are watching politicians setting fire to it, with even district councils being allowed to undermine an international treaty.  A UI or joint authority would give the Irish government / EU proper control over the backdoor and that will be a key factor behind the scenes as long as the EU lasts.

The previous posts were debating who was better at this and that who was shit at this and that.

For me personally it’s a no brainier there will be economic upheaval but that’s expected, I’m lucky that I’m in a global company and my wife is a teacher, her pension will no doubt be covered by whatever financial settlements would be agreed. I’ve a family across the divide here, but there won’t be any arguments, they’ll vote as they see fit, and her family will accept the outcome about from the poll results and move on.

I just can’t see being done this decade if I’m being honest, get it done after some great background media and social media attention. If SF are the main drivers in this then we are starting off on the wrong foot.

There has to be a remain group and leave group, both arguments need to be heard without the the distraction of these political parties. Will just drive division
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: ardtole on March 23, 2021, 10:36:34 PM
The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring

See my post above - last paragraph

Yeah APM, that makes sense. For the likes of Jim OCallaghan to publish a proposal for a united ireland really got me thinking, what was fuelling this sudden change of direction  or opinion? 

I didnt think it was the rise of sf in the 26 because its not a signifigant factor in elections down here, so it had to be an external influence, either europe or the uk maybe some backing from usa.

Whatever has happened in the background there has been a signifigant change in approach in a short period of time. Have Rte ever done a program on reunification before?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on March 23, 2021, 10:44:38 PM
If joint authority wasn't an option 23 years ago for the good Friday agreement then it most certainly should not be an option to hold off a UI for another generation
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2021, 12:01:15 AM
Jim's UI proposals
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/republic-could-reject-a-united-ireland-ocallaghan-warns-40232474.html
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 24, 2021, 05:07:41 AM
The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring

See my post above - last paragraph

Yeah APM, that makes sense. For the likes of Jim OCallaghan to publish a proposal for a united ireland really got me thinking, what was fuelling this sudden change of direction  or opinion? 

I didnt think it was the rise of sf in the 26 because its not a signifigant factor in elections down here, so it had to be an external influence, either europe or the uk maybe some backing from usa.

Whatever has happened in the background there has been a signifigant change in approach in a short period of time. Have Rte ever done a program on reunification before?

Brexit has changed the dynamic. Boris Johnson threw the DUP under the bus. The sea border has unsettled Unionists who worry about London casting NI adrift.
Unionism has no leverage after the DUP's solo run.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RMcCrory95/status/1349408946818330630
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2021, 10:55:30 AM
Meanwhile.....
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-dublin-belfast-economic-corridor-aims-to-tackle-challenges-imposed-by-brexit-the-pandemic-and-climate-change-40233411.html
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 24, 2021, 10:57:01 AM
I see Leaky Leo has just announced the establishment of an “economic corridor” between Dublin and Belfast, linking all 8 local authority bodies along the way. Dunno exactly what that means as Leo was sparse on details.
However, I feel the latest move to forge closer lions between Dublin and Belfast is no random one-ff affair.Jim O’Callaghan’s proposals and the Cork TD’s call for UI discussions all coming at the same time don’t look coincidental to me.
I’d say there is a concerted move between Dublin and Westminster to forge closer social, cultural and economic links between North and South with political syncing coming last of all.
Unity by slow degrees in other words.
It’s obvious that the opposition to SF’s call for a border poll now is coming from the established parties in the South and to a lesser extent from the SDLP and Alliance. I think the possibility of Arlene and Sammy % Co. looking for a border poll just doesn’t arise.
Both FF and FG have had talks with both the SDLP and Alliance in the recent past and I’d say there is a lot of inter party talks going on right now with the knowledge of London.
Mary Lou is a shrewd operator and doesn’t want to be left behind and since the Shinners are easily the most popular party on the island, she’s determined not to be sidelined.
I think the ground work isn’t close to completion right now but things are gradually coming together.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 24, 2021, 11:14:49 AM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 24, 2021, 11:21:04 AM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 24, 2021, 11:27:04 AM
only difference is we fought for our identity and won

You think only 26 counties were involved in the pre-partition Tan War then?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 24, 2021, 11:31:50 AM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

This is a very poor take. How can anybody make such a generalised sweeping comment about who is more Irish than another. As a northerner I don't see myself as any more or less Irish than anyone in the south. But being told that I am neither Irish nor British but 'something in between' is just an insult. I'm not sure if you're just trolling but if not you show a complete misuderstanding of identities. It reminds me of the time Billy Sheehan sang God Save the Queen to try and rile up Ciaran McKeever before a match. 
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Tubberman on March 24, 2021, 11:36:55 AM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

This is a very poor take. How can anybody make such a generalised sweeping comment about who is more Irish than another. As a northerner I don't see myself as any more or less Irish than anyone in the south. But being told that I am neither Irish nor British but 'something in between' is just an insult. I'm not sure if you're just trolling but if not you show a complete misuderstanding of identities. It reminds me of the time Billy Sheehan sang God Save the Queen to try and rile up Ciaran McKeever before a match. 

It was seafoid who said that, and as his name suggests, he mainly talks shite.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Armagh18 on March 24, 2021, 11:39:09 AM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
*gave up half way.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 24, 2021, 12:54:02 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

This is a very poor take. How can anybody make such a generalised sweeping comment about who is more Irish than another. As a northerner I don't see myself as any more or less Irish than anyone in the south. But being told that I am neither Irish nor British but 'something in between' is just an insult. I'm not sure if you're just trolling but if not you show a complete misuderstanding of identities. It reminds me of the time Billy Sheehan sang God Save the Queen to try and rile up Ciaran McKeever before a match. 

It was seafoid who said that, and as his name suggests, he  ;D talks shite.
Mainly?? ;D
I regard myself as Irish and it's not a big deal as I get on with my life. I never feel my identity is threatened in any way. I know it's far different for Nationalists in the north and I do understand their frustration at being unable to live in an atmosphere with an Irish ethos.
But Sammy and Arlene are Irish also and have as much right to call themselves so as I have. I have met numerous Unionists who don't look on themselves as British and resent being called so. Like the monstrous Ulsterman who stood beside me at a match in Lansdowne Road one day and nearly buckled me when he gave me a hearty thump on the back.
"I'm as good a sportsman as any," sez he. "I'd go anywhere at any time just to see England get stuffed."
He had a Union Jack wrapped around his shoulders and saw nothing incongruous with that.
Like many other moderate Prods I have met, he could carry both identities easily.
People like him would regard themselves as  Unionists in broad terms but absolutely despise the UDA/UVF factions.
Northern posters on the board can speak with greater authority on this but I feel that a large swathe of Unionists realise that England would be glad to get rid of them and would be amenable to the idea of a UI if the safeguards were in place.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: tonto1888 on March 24, 2021, 01:39:40 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

Typical free state guilt trip statement here
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 24, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

Typical free state guilt trip statement here

He's just a troll, little evidence of any intelligent or well constructed posts from him.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 02:03:44 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 02:19:52 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 02:24:08 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
Partitionist free stater in we fought and won shocker
The only difference is you had the shame to sell out a part of the country. And therefore, you didn’t fight for your identity hard enough, you didn’t “win” at all.
You’re the type of boy who’d vote against a United Ireland cos it might cost you a few quid.
Embarrassing
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trueblue1234 on March 24, 2021, 02:38:16 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or have emphathy with that. It’s beyond you.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 02:48:03 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It’s beyond you.
I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 24, 2021, 02:49:17 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 24, 2021, 02:50:48 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from here at all. Stage Irishness, what exactly does that involve anyway?

As for stating that England feels more like home than Dublin, well the mind boggles. As someone who crosses the border every day and who has also spent some time in England, well that is just simply nonsense. English mentality is very different with the odd exception. If you've ever spent a weeks holidays in a British tourist resort you'd soon know the difference.

Is that Eamonn Collins, the former IRA informer you are talking about? Just because he says it doesn't mean it is true.

I'm not sure what this sudden obsession with southern Irish trying to tell northern nationalists that they should be more British than Irish is anyway. I'm not sure is it just some posters trolling or if they genuinely believe their own statements. Either way this is totally out of touch with the reality in my experience.     
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 02:52:38 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
The status is the same.
There are British people in Mayo.
Both are counties in Ireland.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 24, 2021, 02:54:32 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from here at all. Stage Irishness, what exactly does that involve anyway?

As for stating that England feels more like home than Dublin, well the mind boggles. As someone who crosses the border every day and who has also spent some time in England, well that is just simply nonsense. English mentality is very different with the odd exception. If you've ever spent a weeks holidays in a British tourist resort you'd soon know the difference.

Is that Eamonn Collins, the former IRA informer you are talking about? Just because he says it doesn't mean it is true.

I'm not sure what this sudden obsession with southern Irish trying to tell northern nationalists that they should be more British than Irish is anyway. I'm not sure is it just some posters trolling or if they genuinely believe their own statements. Either way this is totally out of touch with the reality in my experience.     

I would put it down to Free Stater guilt manifesting itself into a defence mechanism. It's time for them to first of all acknowledge their state's failings to northern nationalists since The Troubles broke out and then to show some contrition for it.

Any who says the Free State establishment has shown anything but contempt to Northern nationalists for the past 50 years is truly deluded.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 02:57:06 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
There's more than a touch of quaint Britishness about Westport, there's even a touch of England's green and pleasant land about Castlebar with its nice village green

But neither feels remotely like Portadown or Lurgan

Maybe a bit like Armagh
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 24, 2021, 02:59:43 PM
Do different towns/cities make people feel more or less Irish or something?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 03:01:23 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
The status is the same.
There are British people in Mayo.
Both are counties in Ireland.
Bayonne and Bilbao are both in the Basque Country but, in another, more pertinent way in terms of international status, Bayonne is in France and Bilbao is in Spain

There are lots English people in Torremolinos but it isn't in England

There are lots of Irish in Boston but it isn't in Ireland
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 03:04:43 PM
Do different towns/cities make people feel more or less Irish or something?
Athlone makes me feel less Irish

Shithole
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 03:06:23 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
The status is the same.
There are British people in Mayo.
Both are counties in Ireland.
Bayonne and Bilbao are both in the Basque Country but, in another, more pertinent way in terms of international status, Bayonne is in France and Bilbao is in Spain

There are lots English people in Torremolinos but it isn't in England

There are lots of Irish in Boston but it isn't in Ireland
And what
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: An Watcher on March 24, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
I feel a hell of alot more at home in westport or Cork than I would in East Belfast or the Shankill Road. Similarly I'm sure there are alot of D4 dubs who'd feel more at home watching Bristol or harlequins in England than they would watching Crossmaglen or gaoth dobhair
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 03:09:32 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
The status is the same.
There are British people in Mayo.
Both are counties in Ireland.
Bayonne and Bilbao are both in the Basque Country but, in another, more pertinent way in terms of international status, Bayonne is in France and Bilbao is in Spain

There are lots English people in Torremolinos but it isn't in England

There are lots of Irish in Boston but it isn't in Ireland
And what
Mayo is in a state called Ireland

Armagh is in a state called the United Kingdom

If the status of the counties was the same you wouldn't be calling for a border poll

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 03:11:23 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
The status is the same.
There are British people in Mayo.
Both are counties in Ireland.
Bayonne and Bilbao are both in the Basque Country but, in another, more pertinent way in terms of international status, Bayonne is in France and Bilbao is in Spain

There are lots English people in Torremolinos but it isn't in England

There are lots of Irish in Boston but it isn't in Ireland
And what
Mayo is in a state called Ireland

Armagh is in a state called the United Kingdom

If the status of the counties was the same you wouldn't be calling for a border poll
Armagh is in a state called Ireland.
Both were once under British rule, now one of those is.
The status of both counties was the same back then, just as it is now.

Seafoid saying the north will always be a different status to the south just doesn’t add up, as the south was once in the same boat as the north.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: HiMucker on March 24, 2021, 03:21:05 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
Really? You sure about that now? The language the people are speaking is a fairly big trace dont you think? Not to mention the countless other examples. Nearly our entire Island is inextricably linked to Britain for forever more whether people like it or not.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2021, 03:28:16 PM
When did Armagh secede from the 6 Counties? ::)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: north_antrim_hound on March 24, 2021, 03:32:49 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
The people are the same, Jesus Christ.
The status of the counties is not the same. There is no trace of Britishness in Mayo and there will always be some in Armagh even in a united Ireland.
The status is the same.
There are British people in Mayo.
Both are counties in Ireland.
Bayonne and Bilbao are both in the Basque Country but, in another, more pertinent way in terms of international status, Bayonne is in France and Bilbao is in Spain

There are lots English people in Torremolinos but it isn't in England

There are lots of Irish in Boston but it isn't in Ireland
And what
Mayo is in a state called choking when the reach an Ireland

Armagh is in a state where the United Kingdom had to move about in helicopters because the ground was a no go.

Fixed that for ya Sid
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trailer on March 24, 2021, 04:11:43 PM
A lot of Northern Republicans do try and go out of their way to prove they are "Ultra Irish"

A handy check list is

Love The Wolfe Tones
Love Celtic / Hate Rangers
Huge SF supporters - see no wrong support - cult like
Hate any Nationalists who don't subscribe to their way of thinking
Want to ram a United Ireland down everyone's throats and have no time for relationship building with others of a different viewpoint

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Orior on March 24, 2021, 04:28:52 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Taylor on March 24, 2021, 04:31:14 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

I would say some of the quarter may have changed their mind now that some of the major parties in the South have softened their stance
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 24, 2021, 04:38:32 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.


Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 24, 2021, 04:40:59 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.
What poll?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 24, 2021, 04:49:33 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 24, 2021, 04:52:13 PM
170 is not a great sample size, although you'd expect the self-selecting GAA-oriented crowd here to be more nationalistic than what the poll shows.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: seafoid on March 24, 2021, 04:52:17 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
I don't recognise the formulation that someone who disagrees with your position has to be a know nothing.

Unfortunately I know too much about the North. And I am not a partitionist. It's all Ireland.

https://youtu.be/Jwv2B4W9brk

You cannot fix the Ulster question just because you have a United Ireland. You can't fix it by claiming OWC is British either.
Because the people are both  Irish and British.
NI will always have some Brit influence. It will.always have Rangers fans. The Plantation is forever.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2021, 04:55:36 PM
Presumably the 7  want nothing to do with nasty freestaters,ffg, failed State, stab in the back 1921, westbrits blah blah?

I would expect a plebiscite in the 26 on a UI held in a vacuum with no preplanning or outline of the type of new State etc would be about 65/35.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 05:00:10 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
I don't recognise the formulation that someone who disagrees with your position has to be a know nothing.

Unfortunately I know too much about the North. And I am not a partitionist. It's all Ireland.

https://youtu.be/Jwv2B4W9brk

You cannot fix the Ulster question just because you have a United Ireland. You can't fix it by claiming OWC is British either.
Because the people are both  Irish and British.
NI will always have some Brit influence. It will.always have Rangers fans. The Plantation is forever.
That’s obviously not true though.
1. I’m not Irish and British, I’m just Irish.
2. Your attempt to annex the O6 doesn’t add up when the Mayo was in its same position, by your logic, it will always have British influence.
You are no different, or your status is no different than us, back then, or now.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 05:01:09 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
You’d wonder how they can look themselves in the mirror.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 24, 2021, 05:04:15 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.
What poll?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2021, 05:12:37 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
You’d wonder how they can look themselves in the mirror.
EvilG and Michael are probably 2 of them or are they not allowed to vote being.....
Angelo, Armagh18 and Shooters are likely 3 being of the  of the hate "freestaters(sic)" camp.
The other 2 are having the craic.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 05:17:57 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
You’d wonder how they can look themselves in the mirror.
EvilG and Michael are probably 2 of them or are they not allowed to vote being.....
Angelo, Armagh18 and Shooters are likely 3 being of the  of the hate "freestaters(sic)" camp.
The other 2 are having the craic.
I include the Southern No’s in that too just for the record.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 24, 2021, 05:23:18 PM
A lot of Northern Republicans do try and go out of their way to prove they are "Ultra Irish"

A handy check list is

Love The Wolfe Tones
Love Celtic / Hate Rangers
Huge SF supporters - see no wrong support - cult like
Hate any Nationalists who don't subscribe to their way of thinking
Want to ram a United Ireland down everyone's throats and have no time for relationship building with others of a different viewpoint

I wouldn't conflate some of that with Irishness. Some of it is just pure tokenism but neither would I criticise those living in socially deprived interface areas for latching onto some of these ideals. It is just their way of expressing their identity and giving themselves a common purpose. If it makes them feel more Irish themselves then so be it, its not going to offend me. Thankfully I live in a part of the north where I don't feel as though I have to go around waving a tricolour and wearing a Celtic jersey. So it is all down to lived experiences and each persons experience is different. All nationalists and republicans do not fall into a single category and I don't like those sweeping generalisations.

I do agree that there needs to be a dialling down of rhetoric from some political representatives (I presume that is what you are referring to) and I think in fairness that there has been some of this within SF since Mary Lou took over the leadership of the party and the old war veterans are gradually phased out. Politicians such as Martina Anderson would be best advised to show a little bit more humility, I don't think that serves their cause any good in trying to win a border poll. It's just Sammy Wilson in reverse and only serves to beat the drum to a particular base by reinforcing some of the stereotypes that you've expressed. 

I think a lot of this is largely a generational thing. People under the age of 40 now have very hazy memories of the troubles and just want a fairer society with a chance of making a decent living with decent public services and where they feel free to express their identity whatever that may be. Younger people now are much more open and less entrenched in their views.           
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Evil Genius on March 24, 2021, 05:30:18 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
You’d wonder how they can look themselves in the mirror.
EvilG and Michael are probably 2 of them or are they not allowed to vote being.....
Angelo, Armagh18 and Shooters are likely 3 being of the  of the hate "freestaters(sic)" camp.
The other 2 are having the craic.
Nope, not me (though I assume I would be permitted to vote, if I chose)
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 05:32:27 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
I don't recognise the formulation that someone who disagrees with your position has to be a know nothing.

Unfortunately I know too much about the North. And I am not a partitionist. It's all Ireland.

https://youtu.be/Jwv2B4W9brk

You cannot fix the Ulster question just because you have a United Ireland. You can't fix it by claiming OWC is British either.
Because the people are both  Irish and British.
NI will always have some Brit influence. It will.always have Rangers fans. The Plantation is forever.
That’s obviously not true though.
1. I’m not Irish and British, I’m just Irish.
2. Your attempt to annex the O6 doesn’t add up when the Mayo was in its same position, by your logic, it will always have British influence.
You are no different, or your status is no different than us, back then, or now.
He didn't say you're British
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 05:39:06 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
I don't recognise the formulation that someone who disagrees with your position has to be a know nothing.

Unfortunately I know too much about the North. And I am not a partitionist. It's all Ireland.

https://youtu.be/Jwv2B4W9brk

You cannot fix the Ulster question just because you have a United Ireland. You can't fix it by claiming OWC is British either.
Because the people are both  Irish and British.
NI will always have some Brit influence. It will.always have Rangers fans. The Plantation is forever.
That’s obviously not true though.
1. I’m not Irish and British, I’m just Irish.
2. Your attempt to annex the O6 doesn’t add up when the Mayo was in its same position, by your logic, it will always have British influence.
You are no different, or your status is no different than us, back then, or now.
He didn't say you're British
Yes he did.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 05:41:00 PM
K
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 24, 2021, 06:04:54 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.
NI is never going to be the same as Mayo because a certain proportion of the peple do not identify as Irish. The best that can be hoped for is some sort of fudge.
If NI were the same as Mayo the armed struggle would have won.
Nonsense, typical free stater partitionist attitude who knows fa about the north.
A certain proportion in the north can identify however they please, that’s nothing to do with the Irish in the north. There is plenty in the south that do not identify as Irish.
The north IS the same as Mayo.
The difference is (can’t believe I’m having to spell this out) that the south sold the north up the river and the British state establishment in the north had greater power in the “armed struggle”.
I’d say you’re one of the boys that would vote against a UI.
I don't recognise the formulation that someone who disagrees with your position has to be a know nothing.

Unfortunately I know too much about the North. And I am not a partitionist. It's all Ireland.

https://youtu.be/Jwv2B4W9brk

You cannot fix the Ulster question just because you have a United Ireland. You can't fix it by claiming OWC is British either.
Because the people are both  Irish and British.
NI will always have some Brit influence. It will.always have Rangers fans. The Plantation is forever.

It won't be fixed immediately in the same way that the peace process post GFA was a journey that a generation probably needed to go through. However, it was always a fairly inevitable long term settlement that the 6 counties would be returned to a single island state at some point in the future.

A major issue was that the planted population never attempted to fully integrate themselves into the country to which they were sent. Partition only helped reinforce this even further when they became the sole ruling class after which they became even more insular and defensive in their attempt to reinforce a protestant state for a protestant people.

Demographics will now shortly take over but it will be too simplistic to say that the 6 counties will always be both Irish & British. The identities of its people might be but most people apart from the Unionists themselves will simply recognise it as Ireland.   

In a Unified country they will have to be welcomed and given protections that some nationalists will find uncomfortable but for some of the Unionists this will never be enough. Similar to shortly after when the 26 counties gained their independence, I would expect that some of them may decide to relocate to England or Scotland.     
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 24, 2021, 06:23:09 PM
A lot of Northern Republicans do try and go out of their way to prove they are "Ultra Irish"

A handy check list is

Love The Wolfe Tones
Love Celtic / Hate Rangers
Huge SF supporters - see no wrong support - cult like
Hate any Nationalists who don't subscribe to their way of thinking
Want to ram a United Ireland down everyone's throats and have no time for relationship building with others of a different viewpoint

Says the unionist boot licker.  ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 24, 2021, 06:25:14 PM
A lot of Northern stoops do try and go out of their way to prove they are "Ultra accommodating"

A handy check list is

Love pledging allegiance to the monarchy/taking seats in Westminster
Love wearing poppies / Hate Easter lilies
Love taking titles and sitting in the House of Lords
Love celebrating partition
Huge SDLP supporters - see no wrong support - cult like
Hate any Republicans who don't subscribe to their way of thinking
Want to ram project Northern Ireland down everyone's throats and have no time for relationship building with others of a different viewpoint
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: michaelg on March 24, 2021, 07:54:52 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
You’d wonder how they can look themselves in the mirror.
EvilG and Michael are probably 2 of them or are they not allowed to vote being.....
Angelo, Armagh18 and Shooters are likely 3 being of the  of the hate "freestaters(sic)" camp.
The other 2 are having the craic.
Nope, not me (though I assume I would be permitted to vote, if I chose)
Nor me!
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 24, 2021, 07:59:54 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.


Give Angelo a chance

Another 6 months and he will have it close to half
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Snapchap on March 24, 2021, 08:46:53 PM
So Seafoid reckons the six counties aren't as Irish as the 26 and that we could consider re-partition (cos it worked so well the last time?).

The mind boggles.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: RedHand88 on March 24, 2021, 09:01:43 PM
17.3% of Dublin is foreign national. Does this make Dublin less Irish?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 09:18:58 PM
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/03/24/news/warning-after-several-hundred-people-from-republic-try-to-book-covid-jabs-in-northern-ireland-2265429/

Those pesky free staters, coming up here trying to take our vaccines 8)
I’d imagine they’d all be in favour of a UI.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 24, 2021, 09:36:28 PM
So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they’re just too afraid to admit it.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 24, 2021, 09:40:11 PM
So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they’re just too afraid to admit it.

6 of them voted Angelo out
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2021, 09:41:56 PM
 :D ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 24, 2021, 09:42:36 PM
17.3% of Dublin is foreign national. Does this make Dublin less Irish?

In a unified Ireland the foreign nationals will actually outnumber the Unionists so I guess that means Ireland will be Irish, British and everything else.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on March 24, 2021, 09:43:57 PM
 ;D ;D ;D wonder how that list is coming on
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trueblue1234 on March 24, 2021, 09:45:46 PM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.


Give Angelo a chance

Another 6 months and he will have it close to half
Only an idiot would base a decision like this based on the musings of an on- line WUM. Unless you wanted an excuse to vote that way anyway....

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 24, 2021, 10:23:52 PM
So Seafoid reckons the six counties aren't as Irish as the 26 and that we could consider re-partition (cos it worked so well the last time?).

The mind boggles.
Another good example here of a Northern poster not engaging with what another poster actually said and creating a warm bath of fake offence to wallow in

Sooooo comforting
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: armaghniac on March 24, 2021, 10:35:41 PM
17.3% of Dublin is foreign national. Does this make Dublin less Irish?

In a unified Ireland the foreign nationals will actually outnumber the Unionists so I guess that means Ireland will be Irish, British and everything else.

Irlandia będzie polska
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 25, 2021, 12:01:52 AM
So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they’re just too afraid to admit it.

I don't know very many Catholics in the North but I know enough t feel that a sizeable rump would feel uncomfortable stepping into the unknown, giving the inevitable backlash that willl inevitably follow.
I'm thinking mainly of the Malone Road types; those who have a grand wee comfortable lifestyle and don't want to jeopardise it in any way. I'm not blaming, if that's the word, anyone on that particular road- it's just the social class they belong.
I wonder if the Nationalists on the board are being a bit too confident in assuming that demographics and a bit of patience is all that it will take to let everything slip into place.
For instance, could all pro-UI posters honestly claim that every (Catholic) voter they know will be 100% sure to vote for the end of partition?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: ardtole on March 25, 2021, 07:21:38 AM
There is a signifigant amount of catholics with cushy civil service jobs, how they are rewarded or compensated for expected redundancies will be more telling.

There is going to be money thrown at this, whatever has happened in the last few weeks, the change in attitude, particulary from the politicians in the south has been dramatic.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2021, 07:27:38 AM
You mean BT9 ners like Brolly?

Tbh the numbers are not that high that would make a significant difference, I said earlier that the ones on benefits and social housing they’d be harder to convince, those with money will always find a way.

It’s not like those top civil service jobs will disappear, the lower paid CS jobs will go first.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: ardtole on March 25, 2021, 07:39:39 AM
I agree totally mr2, thats why when sammy from sandy row or billy from ballymena are in the privacy of the voting booth, the 200 euro a week dole money that the south pays, compared to the 50 or 60 in the north could be hugely signifigant.

Wouldnt suprise me if the same lads were out throwing petrol bombs for a few days after what they voted for passed either.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2021, 07:45:59 AM
I agree totally mr2, thats why when sammy from sandy row or billy from ballymena are in the privacy of the voting booth, the 200 euro a week dole money that the south pays, compared to the 50 or 60 in the north could be hugely signifigant.

Wouldnt suprise me if the same lads were out throwing petrol bombs for a few days after what they voted for passed either.

I would say the South would have to review their payments schemes, how much does a standard dole merchant get in the south?

Free rent and social payments?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: ardtole on March 25, 2021, 07:54:48 AM
200 a week approx, rent covered, and a medical card. With the huge cost of rent in the private sector it actually is a detterent for some to return to work.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: RedHand88 on March 25, 2021, 07:55:41 AM
You mean BT9 ners like Brolly?

Tbh the numbers are not that high that would make a significant difference, I said earlier that the ones on benefits and social housing they’d be harder to convince, those with money will always find a way.

It’s not like those top civil service jobs will disappear, the lower paid CS jobs will go first.

In Brollys defence he's a BT6er
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2021, 07:58:08 AM
You mean BT9 ners like Brolly?

Tbh the numbers are not that high that would make a significant difference, I said earlier that the ones on benefits and social housing they’d be harder to convince, those with money will always find a way.

It’s not like those top civil service jobs will disappear, the lower paid CS jobs will go first.

In Brollys defence he's a BT6er

Sorry mlord! I’d have had him there based on his involvement with St Brigids
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Maroon Manc on March 25, 2021, 08:52:39 AM
Its probably been discussed earlier but is the huge budget deficit in the North going to be an issue?

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: johnnycool on March 25, 2021, 09:04:21 AM
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
You’d wonder how they can look themselves in the mirror.
EvilG and Michael are probably 2 of them or are they not allowed to vote being.....
Angelo, Armagh18 and Shooters are likely 3 being of the  of the hate "freestaters(sic)" camp.
The other 2 are having the craic.
Nope, not me (though I assume I would be permitted to vote, if I chose)
Nor me!

You two lads still hold the Unionist veto so no matter how the rest of us vote your votes override all that.

Unless one voted for a UI then we're proper fúcked.   ;D
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 25, 2021, 09:26:45 AM
Its probably been discussed earlier but is the huge budget deficit in the North going to be an issue?
Of course it will especially for the non emotionally motivated "middle ground" in the 6 who will decide the Referendum.
So the quicker the North starts to cash in on its unique post Brexit position and tries to improve itself the better
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 25, 2021, 09:45:13 AM
Some GAAboarders work in FIFA?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9395669/Official-FIFA-website-makes-bizarre-inclusion-Irish-Free-State-Northern-Irelands-group.html
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 25, 2021, 09:56:32 AM
A lot of Northern stoops do try and go out of their way to prove they are "Ultra accommodating"

A handy check list is

Love pledging allegiance to the monarchy/taking seats in Westminster
Love wearing poppies / Hate Easter lilies
Love taking titles and sitting in the House of Lords
Love celebrating partition
Huge SDLP supporters - see no wrong support - cult like
Hate any Republicans who don't subscribe to their way of thinking
Want to ram project Northern Ireland down everyone's throats and have no time for relationship building with others of a different viewpoint

Yup.

That would be my general conclusion of your modern day Stoop.

Their main political representation is to be anti-SF more than anything else. A parody of a political party and Eastwood has to be just about the most embarrassing political figure in the O6 and that really is some achievement in itself.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 25, 2021, 10:28:44 AM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It’s beyond you.
I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that
I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 25, 2021, 11:56:38 AM
So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they’re just too afraid to admit it.

I don't know very many Catholics in the North but I know enough t feel that a sizeable rump would feel uncomfortable stepping into the unknown, giving the inevitable backlash that willl inevitably follow.
I'm thinking mainly of the Malone Road types; those who have a grand wee comfortable lifestyle and don't want to jeopardise it in any way. I'm not blaming, if that's the word, anyone on that particular road- it's just the social class they belong.
I wonder if the Nationalists on the board are being a bit too confident in assuming that demographics and a bit of patience is all that it will take to let everything slip into place.
For instance, could all pro-UI posters honestly claim that every (Catholic) voter they know will be 100% sure to vote for the end of partition?

I think most people are realistic enough to know that calling a border poll and winning it are 2 completely different realities. However I do think that when it is called that there would be a reasonable assumption that it will pass. And yes, there will be cushy catholic voters who may not want to give up what they see as some of their home comforts if it makes them economically worse off.  But that is where the work lies for civic nationalism in preparing ahead for the poll and bringing forward the benefits of a unified island in order to alleviate those fears. I'd be fairly sure that when it does happen that there will be a groundswell of public opinion both nationally and internationally behind the idea of reunification and I don't even think many in Britain will object to it, certainly at least privately.

Work around the gradual phasing out of UK subvention grants, maintenance of pension entitlements, international funding etc need to be ironed out. The British position regarding the north may have changed forever as a result of the outworkings of Brexit and with the opening debate from political parties in the south there is a whiff of change in the air. Even getting many Unionist politicians to the position that they are accepting of the fact that a border poll is fairly inevitable would have been unthinkable only 5 years ago.

At the minute, until we know how this new nation state will look, it is a futile exercise in second guessing how cushy catholics, foreign nationals and people in the middle will vote, but I'd be fairly sure that by the time it comes to pass that the work will have been done by that stage. Then it will largely boil down to basic economics and the biggest challenge will be for civic nationalism to try and win this argument.     
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 25, 2021, 12:07:09 PM
So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they’re just too afraid to admit it.

I don't know very many Catholics in the North but I know enough t feel that a sizeable rump would feel uncomfortable stepping into the unknown, giving the inevitable backlash that willl inevitably follow.
I'm thinking mainly of the Malone Road types; those who have a grand wee comfortable lifestyle and don't want to jeopardise it in any way. I'm not blaming, if that's the word, anyone on that particular road- it's just the social class they belong.
I wonder if the Nationalists on the board are being a bit too confident in assuming that demographics and a bit of patience is all that it will take to let everything slip into place.
For instance, could all pro-UI posters honestly claim that every (Catholic) voter they know will be 100% sure to vote for the end of partition?
I am one of that sizeable rump, although not a Malone Road type. We are culturally Irish and broadly in favour of unity. But some reassurance is required and we would be easier persuaded than the middle ground. A lot of my nervousness centres around being in my 60's. Some on here pilloried me for this position but the concerns of this demographic can and should be assuaged.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 25, 2021, 12:13:39 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It’s beyond you.
I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that
I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?
I think both statements are accurate.There’s definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, “They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren’t satisfied.”
 
The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn’t a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else’s aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Cavan19 on March 25, 2021, 12:25:22 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It’s beyond you.
I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that
I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?
I think both statements are accurate.There’s definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, “They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren’t satisfied.”
 
The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn’t a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else’s aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

I have seen that a few times at GAA games where there is a bit of an argument going on about something that has happened on the field and the old "free state bastards" line comes out and you sold us out etc. I must say its a tiny tiny minority but it goes to show the bitterness of some.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 25, 2021, 12:26:03 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It’s beyond you.
I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that
I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?
I think both statements are accurate.There’s definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, “They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren’t satisfied.”
 
The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn’t a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else’s aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

And why do you think that is?

100 years of turning a blind eye to the institutional sectarianism northern nationalists received in their daily lives.
Watching on as innocent catholics were shot and beaten off the streets, burned out of their homes by state forces.
Denied the right to vote, gain employment or have the same educational rights as the other side of the community.
Vilified and pontificated at nationalists who decided to take the fight up themselves while at the same time meekly tutting at the British state sponsored terrorism on its citizens.

That is the reason I feel the South is an insidious institution. For me unity is not about the north joining the south, it's about the end of two utterly rotten states who have completely failed the citizens of this island. It's consigning those failures to the bin and starting all over it. Now a lot of Free Staters, and I'm not referring directly to you here don't want to deal with the shame they should acknowledge on how northern nationalists were abandoned by their state and then vilified for standing up for their human rights and their community when the British State turned its forces on a defenceless people.

Decency, respect, humanity would have seen the Free State intervening meaningfully in The Troubles, instead it washed its hand off it to keep the status quo, to carry on the gravy train. Bar a handful of politicians like Neil Blaney through the years, the actions of FFG politicians has to be dismiss, insult and diminish northern nationalist as some sort of crazed sectarian extremists without ever examining their own failings.

Rather than Micheal Martin turning a request that he engage with families of The Troubles to get some restorative justice into a quite frankly disgusting political point scoring exercise, maybe he should address the failings of his parties and the other governments and their pathetic repsonse and treatment all through the years to northern nationalists.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Substandard on March 25, 2021, 12:39:25 PM
I think one of the most disheartening and frustrating aspects of the lockdowns and vaccine rollout is the wavering and uncertainty, with the narrative shifting daily or weekly.  If people thought there was a definitive direction, then people would be more likely to be on board and engage with the processes.
The same would apply in the case of reunification.  Reading here the last week or so reminds me of a section in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy- the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything was 42, but the problem was no-one could define the question.  There are so many strands that it is natural that people would focus on specific ones either closest to their hearts or their economic circumstances, and idle speculation or hearsay would do little to dispel doubts or not fuel anxieties about other strands.  There would need to be some form of forum whereby people could submit their views across a range of local, community and national issues, and then this data to be analysed to suggest directions.  This process would need to run concurrently with cross-party talks at a political level, again from local to regional to national scale.  It would take a lot of time, and again it would take time to digest the findings, but there is such diversity, even from the comments here in the last while, to encapsulate all views would be a pretty herculean task.
How do you eat an elephant?  One bite at at time, and it would be the same here- a lot of small steps to get things in motion, but even before these could happen, there needs to be a framework which could point the way, and ultimately see a timeline evolve.  The old Gaelic chieftains' complaint that the Normans were becoming more Irish than the Irish themselves (or was it the other way round with the Normans complaining, I can't remember) shows a difficulty in defining being Irish, and the who or what is an Irishman argument sidetracks the debate when identity is so crucial to different groupings and backgrounds.
There needs to be options put before people, with possibilities and alternatives, and when people can see these options, they can start thinking about what the end product would look like.
The entire concept just can't be reduced to a yes or a no.
Otherwise, the answer is 42.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: naka on March 25, 2021, 12:45:46 PM
So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they’re just too afraid to admit it.

I don't know very many Catholics in the North but I know enough t feel that a sizeable rump would feel uncomfortable stepping into the unknown, giving the inevitable backlash that willl inevitably follow.
I'm thinking mainly of the Malone Road types; those who have a grand wee comfortable lifestyle and don't want to jeopardise it in any way. I'm not blaming, if that's the word, anyone on that particular road- it's just the social class they belong.
I wonder if the Nationalists on the board are being a bit too confident in assuming that demographics and a bit of patience is all that it will take to let everything slip into place.
For instance, could all pro-UI posters honestly claim that every (Catholic) voter they know will be 100% sure to vote for the end of partition?
I am one of that sizeable rump, although not a Malone Road type. We are culturally Irish and broadly in favour of unity. But some reassurance is required and we would be easier persuaded than the middle ground. A lot of my nervousness centres around being in my 60's. Some on here pilloried me for this position but the concerns of this demographic can and should be assuaged.
to be fair apples
a fair few of the guys who vote sinn fein and claim their benefits need to be persuaded also, the privacy of teh vote might make people be a little more hesitant when the bit comes to teh bit.
i am in my 50s  but my two kids are definitely not sure fire votes for unity. the eldest is content that she is recognised as irish but would need to be persuaded to vote yes, whilst teh youngest would be fire and brimstone, lets get it done.
what i am saying is that its not a given that the youth will automatically vote yes either.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 25, 2021, 01:02:42 PM
Ye do realise there are social welfare benefits in the 26 Cos?
Ye do realise that the UK benefits are among  the lowest in Europe?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: general_lee on March 25, 2021, 01:03:30 PM
Ye do realise there are social welfare benefits in the 26 Cos?
Ye do realise that the UK benefits are among  the lowest in Europe?
Was just about to say this. Surely the ones on benefits need the least convincing...
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 25, 2021, 01:18:05 PM
We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2021, 01:19:04 PM
We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

Think you’ll find the insults are a 2 way street
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 25, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Applesisapples on March 25, 2021, 01:21:01 PM
We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

Think you’ll find the insults are a 2 way street
Granted but I prefer the higher moral ground. But there are a number of pro unity posters on here who disparage anyone with a different take.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: trueblue1234 on March 25, 2021, 01:21:50 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It’s beyond you.
I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that
I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?
I think both statements are accurate.There’s definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, “They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren’t satisfied.”
 
The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn’t a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else’s aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

I have seen that a few times at GAA games where there is a bit of an argument going on about something that has happened on the field and the old "free state bastards" line comes out and you sold us out etc. I must say its a tiny tiny minority but it goes to show the bitterness of some.

There is always a vocal minority in all walks off life. For every free state b******d comment there will be a similar “British b*******d” comment from some bitter minority from the south. Decisions should not be based on these people and too often people using these types of comments as a defence for making a certain decision, are doing so only to cover up their real reason for making such decision.

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Angelo on March 25, 2021, 01:23:05 PM
We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

What good reasons were there?

A "not my problem" attitude. The Free State has absolutely no position to moralise on what happened in The Troubles when they were happy enough to stand idly by and let nationalists be terrorised in a sectarian state.

When you have families who have lost and suffered at the hands of the British state and calls for restorative justice are handled with a "but the IRA" response then I think it shows the absolute contempt the Free State establishment has for northern nationalists.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Rossfan on March 25, 2021, 01:26:34 PM
Spot on Apples.
All the voters in the Referenda(dums?) will have been born long after 1921 and many will have been born after 1994.
The past is the past, what happened happened and moaning to people who weren't born then is pointless and reinforces stereotypes.
As business and commercial interests are coming together perhaps its time for "civic nationalism" to start a Citizens Assembly type forum of some sort open to all shades across Ireland ?
Leave the politicians, especially the 17th Century ones behind.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2021, 01:41:41 PM
Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI

So what’s your point?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Franko on March 25, 2021, 01:43:06 PM
Spot on Apples.
All the voters in the Referenda(dums?) will have been born long after 1921 and many will have been born after 1994.
The past is the past, what happened happened and moaning to people who weren't born then is pointless and reinforces stereotypes.
As business and commercial interests are coming together perhaps its time for "civic nationalism" to start a Citizens Assembly type forum of some sort open to all shades across Ireland ?
Leave the politicians, especially the 17th Century ones behind.

Dear me.  Maybe the least self-aware statement I've ever seen on this board.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: bennydorano on March 25, 2021, 02:04:38 PM
Have contributed to these types of threads on here for near 20 years, the only thing that's changed is that the Northerners & Southerners are getting further apart and more nasty to each other. I've long reconciled myself to the fact that a UI is a pipe dream, if Scotland goes then maybe there's a chance, if not , no chance imo.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 25, 2021, 02:05:48 PM
I think that this has the potential to be the longest ever thread on this board.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 25, 2021, 02:11:45 PM
Have contributed to these types of threads on here for near 20 years, the only thing that's changed is that the Northerners & Southerners are getting further apart and more nasty to each other. I've long reconciled myself to the fact that a UI is a pipe dream, if Scotland goes then maybe there's a chance, if not , no chance imo.

I wouldn't conflate a few cranks on an online thread or on Twitter who have their own personal agendas and vendettas, with the general public mood. A younger generation coming through now generally do not hold that same level of bitterness and prejudice in my experience.     
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 25, 2021, 02:19:51 PM
Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI

So what’s your point?

Are you that economically illiterate

The NI economy with all its billions in subventions from the English taxpayer is underperforming the Republic by a minimum of 2/3rds by some metrics and up to 90% in others

The billions that have spent on it by the UK taxpayer haven’t shifted the arrow upwards on any graph,actually it appears that the opposite is the case

Will it come to a point in 30/40 years time,where even the english will say this is too much of a drain on us,

you lot take it on

remember the subvention to NI is an awful lot more that the EU one and we all know what happened there
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: clonadmad on March 25, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

What good reasons were there?

A "not my problem" attitude. The Free State has absolutely no position to moralise on what happened in The Troubles when they were happy enough to stand idly by and let nationalists be terrorised in a sectarian state.

When you have families who have lost and suffered at the hands of the British state and calls for restorative justice are handled with a "but the IRA" response then I think it shows the absolute contempt the Free State establishment has for northern nationalists.

There was civil war in the south over the partition of this island 

I know you have conveniently forgotten that detail

It doesn’t suit your narrative of they left us behind
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 25, 2021, 02:29:05 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2021, 02:34:27 PM

Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI

So what’s your point?

Are you that economically illiterate

The NI economy with all its billions in subventions from the English taxpayer is underperforming the Republic by a minimum of 2/3rds by some metrics and up to 90% in others

The billions that have spent on it by the UK taxpayer haven’t shifted the arrow upwards on any graph,actually it appears that the opposite is the case

Will it come to a point in 30/40 years time,where even the english will say this is too much of a drain on us,

you lot take it on

remember the subvention to NI is an awful lot more that the EU one and we all know what happened there
We don't know is the simple answer, looking back in the not so distant past Ireland was nearly bankrupt and now its bounced back, go back even further and there wasn't a road that didn't have a hole on it or didnt take you through every village on the way to Dublin.

You are going into the future with a blind idea of how it will pan out.

Northern Ireland is not a country its a state that's been run into the ground after over 30 years of troubles, were building were raised to the ground and business couldn't open without having to pay for the 'protection' from their local hoods.

Within that period industries closed like Mackies Harlands, and other major engineering firms, a small place like here can't and won't be able to sustain itself with the drop off in industry.

I'm sure there is enough of a skilled work force to get it up and going again. Local politics has a lot to answer to, but sure we'll keep voting them in and get the same results.

Your post is something we all know. So what's your real point? That the South would be mad to take back the north, that it would be better to stay as a republic and not unify the island? 
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 25, 2021, 02:36:23 PM
The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.
Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they’ve had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I’m more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won
There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn’t expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It’s beyond you.
I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that
I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?
I think both statements are accurate.There’s definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, “They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren’t satisfied.”
 
The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn’t a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else’s aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

And why do you think that is?

100 years of turning a blind eye to the institutional sectarianism northern nationalists received in their daily lives.
Watching on as innocent catholics were shot and beaten off the streets, burned out of their homes by state forces.
Denied the right to vote, gain employment or have the same educational rights as the other side of the community.
Vilified and pontificated at nationalists who decided to take the fight up themselves while at the same time meekly tutting at the British state sponsored terrorism on its citizens.

That is the reason I feel the South is an insidious institution. For me unity is not about the north joining the south, it's about the end of two utterly rotten states who have completely failed the citizens of this island. It's consigning those failures to the bin and starting all over it. Now a lot of Free Staters, and I'm not referring directly to you here don't want to deal with the shame they should acknowledge on how northern nationalists were abandoned by their state and then vilified for standing up for their human rights and their community when the British State turned its forces on a defenceless people.

Decency, respect, humanity would have seen the Free State intervening meaningfully in The Troubles, instead it washed its hand off it to keep the status quo, to carry on the gravy train. Bar a handful of politicians like Neil Blaney through the years, the actions of FFG politicians has to be dismiss, insult and diminish northern nationalist as some sort of crazed sectarian extremists without ever examining their own failings.

Rather than Micheal Martin turning a request that he engage with families of The Troubles to get some restorative justice into a quite frankly disgusting political point scoring exercise, maybe he should address the failings of his parties and the other governments and their pathetic repsonse and treatment all through the years to northern nationalists.
I am genuinely surprised that you should ask that question. I think I have already spelled that out. Over 90% of the population took sides in the civil war- a greater number than got involved in any way in the Tan war that preceded it.
I was two generations removed from the civil war and the native village was still split down the middle. Even children from the pro- and ani- treaty factions weren’t allowed to play with each other.
You had Taigs vs Prods but the opposing sides down here hated each other just as much. The Free State had a miniscule industrial base- cattle on the hoof and the few bob emigrants might send home was the only ways of getting money into the poorer rural parts. The Land War brought the economy to its knees.
Some households had wet and dry cell wireless, few could afford the luxury of buying newspapers and in any event, the news was heavily censored so the vast majority knew little about happenings in Northern Ireland.Even as late as 1969 when the Irish army pretended it was going to invade south Down, you wouldn’t get the likes in the Keystone Kops. Most of the lorries broke down between the Curragh and Dundalk.
Clonad Mad already stated that the Irish economy was banjaxed in the period after partition. THe population of native county fell by a third due to emigration between partition and the arrival of Sean Lemass as Taoiseach in the 60s.
Don’t see how anyone could expect a mob of half-starved civilians take on one of the world’s superpowers.
All this won’t answer one fundamental question; why do those who most hate the “Free State” demand unity as a matter of right?
Now, I don’t intend to have a flame war with you or anyone else but I have to ask you a pertinent question.
You began by asking me something then proceeded to give the answer although I had gone into considerable lengths to deal with the issues you were raising.
So, genuinely, why bother asking me anything since you had no interest in what I already had stated?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Lar Naparka on March 25, 2021, 02:40:58 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that
You are splitting hairs, sid. All roads led to the same end...
Those who were pro-treaty were prepared to take the Oath of Allegiance and those who were anti- weren't.
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 25, 2021, 02:42:41 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that

That may be true and I think it was more a case of a bird in the hand and just take what is on offer while we can. Nobody can sit here now and definitively say whether that was right or wrong, it was probably the correct decision at that particular time given the context since even the anti treatyites main bone of contention was primarily with the oath and not with partition.

It was presumed then though that a 32 county republic would follow at some point afterwards but somewhere along the line this faded as the southern state had enough problems of its own.   
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 25, 2021, 02:43:39 PM
Those who hold the "youse left us behind" narrative should note the following:

Had the Free Staters decided to invade the North or go to war with Unionists, it would have been done on the exact same rationale as Hitler used to invade the Sudetenland

The Nazis believed that the concept of a Greater Germany was an inherently natural, God-given one

Putin uses this narrative to occupy parts of Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova

Hardline Israelis use this narrative to occupy Palestine

There is no such a thing in nature as an independent all-Ireland state and there never will be such a thing, because no state exists in nature

An independent all-Ireland state would be an artificial creation, just like the United Kingdom is and Northern Ireland itself is



Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 25, 2021, 02:49:12 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that

That may be true and I think it was more a case of a bird in the hand and just take what is on offer while we can. Nobody can sit here now and definitively say whether that was right or wrong, it was probably the correct decision at that particular time given the context since even the anti treatyites main bone of contention was primarily with the oath and not with partition.

It was presumed then though that a 32 county republic would follow at some point afterwards but somewhere along the line this faded as the southern state had enough problems of its own.
I think it was definitely the correct decision because it did indeed give the Irish Free State the freedom to achieve real freedom

As regards the North, to go to war over the North would have been a bloodbath which would have resulted in total Unionist victory and likely mass murder of Catholics and mass ethnic cleansing

There might barely have been a Catholic in the entire six counties by the end of it

So when people say "youse left us behind", consider that

I wonder do the Bosnian Serbs say to the Serbs "youse left us behind"
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 25, 2021, 02:54:40 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that
You are splitting hairs, sid. All roads led to the same end...
Those who were pro-treaty were prepared to take the Oath of Allegiance and those who were anti- weren't.
I'm not splitting hairs

Partition was not the reason for the existence of the anti-Treaty side in the Civil War

The only reason one would believe this is if one took the film "Michael Collins" as definitive historical fact, rather than light entertainment aimed at Middle America
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 25, 2021, 03:03:00 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that

That may be true and I think it was more a case of a bird in the hand and just take what is on offer while we can. Nobody can sit here now and definitively say whether that was right or wrong, it was probably the correct decision at that particular time given the context since even the anti treatyites main bone of contention was primarily with the oath and not with partition.

It was presumed then though that a 32 county republic would follow at some point afterwards but somewhere along the line this faded as the southern state had enough problems of its own.
I think it was definitely the correct decision because it did indeed give the Irish Free State the freedom to achieve real freedom

As regards the North, to go to war over the North would have been a bloodbath which would have resulted in total Unionist victory and likely mass murder of Catholics and mass ethnic cleansing

There might barely have been a Catholic in the entire six counties by the end of it

So when people say "youse left us behind", consider that

I wonder do the Bosnian Serbs say to the Serbs "youse left us behind"

Lets just say you closed the gate, welded it shut and moved on
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 25, 2021, 03:07:12 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that

That may be true and I think it was more a case of a bird in the hand and just take what is on offer while we can. Nobody can sit here now and definitively say whether that was right or wrong, it was probably the correct decision at that particular time given the context since even the anti treatyites main bone of contention was primarily with the oath and not with partition.

It was presumed then though that a 32 county republic would follow at some point afterwards but somewhere along the line this faded as the southern state had enough problems of its own.
I think it was definitely the correct decision because it did indeed give the Irish Free State the freedom to achieve real freedom

As regards the North, to go to war over the North would have been a bloodbath which would have resulted in total Unionist victory and likely mass murder of Catholics and mass ethnic cleansing

There might barely have been a Catholic in the entire six counties by the end of it

So when people say "youse left us behind", consider that

I wonder do the Bosnian Serbs say to the Serbs "youse left us behind"

I wouldn't be just as definite about whether it was the correct decision and it is easier to say that it was if you are living in the south and have already gained your independence. We could be sitting here today with an entire island under some form of British rule or alternatively we could be sitting in a 32 county republic, who knows. The likelihood is that there were would have been further bloodshed though.

Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: yellowcard on March 25, 2021, 03:15:39 PM
I also note that another northerner has voted to 'keep Ulster British' in the poll. Is there no way of revealing usernames on these polls?
Title: Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
Post by: sid waddell on March 25, 2021, 03:16:17 PM
The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that