The Poppy

[Evil Genius]

Yeah, the military tradition was that strong that when Adolf went into Poland the vast majority of those loyal subjects eligible in the statelet rushed to join reserved occupations (shipyard, B-Specials etc) rather than face the panzers ... much less hazardous staying at home bullying and intimidating the indiginous disloyal population ... and sure they'd be there to fight bravely for the union jack should Rommel come through the back door

During the 1st World War, people volunteered in huge numbers from all over the British Isles, including from both traditions in both parts of Ireland.

However, such was the carnage and savagery in that conflict, that when the 2nd World War broke out just 21 years later, with memories still raw, the British Government knew that nowhere near the same numbers would volunteer. Therefore they introduced conscription nationwide.

However, they also knew that conscription could not be made to work in NI, the only part of the UK with a land border, since this would be frustrated by potentially large numbers of Nationalists (and maybe some Unionists?) crossing into the Free State to avoid it. Consequently, it would have cost more soldiers and police to try to enforce than it would produce.

Moreover, the peculiar circumstances of NI meant that higher than normal numbers would have been needed for "Reserved Occupations", For one thing, as a mostly rural Province, NI produced vital food in the "Dig For Victory" campaign. Moreover, with its Shipyards, Aircraft Factories and Heavy Engineering Works, Belfast was especially important in producing armaments etc for the millitary war effort. For example, I think I'm right in saying that Harland and Wolff was the only major British shipyard which didn't lose a day's production throughout the entire war. Which explains why Belfast suffered more from Blitzkrieg during the war than any comparable British city after London and Coventry, despite it being at the very furthest range of the Luftwaffe's aircraft.

And in any case, the record of NI's Unionists in the war with Nazism was a hell of a sight prouder than that of certain of their Republican neighbours - as Gerry Adams' father and uncle could no doubt testify...

[Evil Genius]

EG

This is a thread on an Irish forum, about the wearing of the Poppy, a week and a half before the anniversary of a particularly heinous massacre in Ireland, on Poppy Day. Anyone who can't see the relevance of that, or why it should be particular cause for many people in NI choosing to wear Poppies, is an idiot.
Since I don't think you're an idiot, is there any particular reason why reminders of that Massacre should strike a particular nerve with you?

Do you wear any badges or symbols to commentrate any other atrocity in Ireland? What do you wear in August to commentrate Omagh? What do you wear in January to commentrate Bloody Sunday?  Don't insult our intelligence by wheeling out the Enniskillen bombing (and it's innocent victims) to justify you and your fellow unionist's bigotry. 

The Enniskillen Massacre happened on Poppy Day, an annual event. Therefore, it is obvious why people in NI should feel a special connection to Poppy Day and make a particular effort to wear the Poppy when that time comes round each year. Or do you imagine that we should NOT wear Poppies, for fear of "offending" (there's that word again) an extreme and unrepresentative few?

And how is the wearing of Poppies any different from e.g. the wearing of Easter Lilies by Irish Republicans? Other, of course, that when Irish Republicans organise commemorations of the Easter Rising, replete with Lilies, Unionists don't organise counter-demonstrations. And that the Poppy represents a whole range of conflicts down the decades, the overwhelming majority of which have no relation to the particular partisan politics of Ireland. And the fact that whilst the British Services are the legitimate armed forces of the land, many of those who commemorate the Easter Rising do so in the name of an organisation which is proscribed by the legitmate Governments in both parts of Ireland...

Anyhow, I am actually gratified that so many people on this forum, whilst not sympathising either with Unionism or the British Army etc, can still retain the perspective and equanimity to accept that symbols like the Poppy are important to the other tradition on the island and that the wearing of them at appropriate times need not give undue offence (other than to those who are absolutley determined to be "offended" by every conceivable cause, on every conceivable occasion...  )

[pintsofguinness]

The Enniskillen Massacre happened on Poppy Day, an annual event. Therefore, it is obvious why people in NI should feel a special connection to Poppy Day and make a particular effort to wear the Poppy when that time comes round each year. Or do you imagine that we should NOT wear Poppies, for fear of "offending" (there's that word again) an extreme and unrepresentative few?

I ask again, what do you wear to commentrate Omagh or Bloody Sunday? If you're worried about commentrating the innocent victims of the North's troubles I assume you wear some symbol to commentrate these events and countless others?
Didn't unionists wear poppies before the Enniskillen bomb? Of course they did.
Im not surprised that you use the innocent victims of Enniskillen, just like you use the brave men who died in the World Wars, as an excuse to express your bigotry. 

And how is the wearing of Poppies any different from e.g. the wearing of Easter Lilies by Irish Republicans?

Well you don't see Republicans wearing lilies two weeks before easter and anyone who appears on Irish television a month before isn't forced to wear the symbol or face ridicule from a pack of bigots. 

Other, of course, that when Irish Republicans organise commemorations of the Easter Rising, replete with Lilies, Unionists don't organise counter-demonstrations.

probably because republicans don't march through areas they're not wanted in for 9 months of the year 

[milltown row]

cant believe this thread is still going on

[Evil Genius]

The Enniskillen Massacre happened on Poppy Day, an annual event. Therefore, it is obvious why people in NI should feel a special connection to Poppy Day and make a particular effort to wear the Poppy when that time comes round each year. Or do you imagine that we should NOT wear Poppies, for fear of "offending" (there's that word again) an extreme and unrepresentative few?

I ask again, what do you wear to commentrate Omagh or Bloody Sunday? If you're worried about commentrating the innocent victims of the North's troubles I assume you wear some symbol to commentrate these events and countless others?
Didn't unionists wear poppies before the Enniskillen bomb? Of course they did.
Im not surprised that you use the innocent victims of Enniskillen, just like you use the brave men who died in the World Wars, as an excuse to express your bigotry. 

You don't get it, do you? People in NI wore Poppies annually before Enniskillen. Since then, however, it has had a particular resonance, especially since Poppy Day has an additional greater significance (two World Wars etc), about which we are reminded, along with the rest of the UK, every year.

As for e.g. Omagh or Bloody Sunday, there is no equivalent symbol which marks those particular atrocities. But that does not stop those who wish to from commemorating them as they feel appropriate (e.g. services, marches etc). So why should those of us moved by Remembrance Sunday have to apologise to what is increasingly clear to be a small and virulent anti-British minority? The majority of Nationalists can tolerate the Poppy, just as the majority of Unionists tolerate equivalent displays of their culture/heritage/community etc by Nationalists.
And what is "bigoted" about defending the wearing of the Poppy? Are these people "bigots"?
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kfcwauqlaukf/
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/index.asp?docID=2517
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_National_War_Memorial_Gardens

And how is the wearing of Poppies any different from e.g. the wearing of Easter Lilies by Irish Republicans?

Well you don't see Republicans wearing lilies two weeks before easter and anyone who appears on Irish television a month before isn't forced to wear the symbol or face ridicule from a pack of bigots.  

Other, of course, that when Irish Republicans organise commemorations of the Easter Rising, replete with Lilies, Unionists don't organise counter-demonstrations.

probably because republicans don't march through areas they're not wanted in for 9 months of the year  

Easter Lilies are not worn to raise money for ex-Servicemens charities etc. Poppies are, and as already been pointed out, if they restricted their sale to Remembrance Sunday itself, they wouldn't raise a fraction of the over £30m which is currently raised each year. So once again, you are not comparing like-with-like.  As for the protocol adopted by "Irish television" (RTE?), if you don't like this, you are prefectly at liberty to contact them and register your complaint. Which would be quite appropriate, since the freedom to protest - and stage counter demonstrations in Belfast - is just the sort of freedom which many servicemen and women gave their lives for, as commemorated on Remembrance Sunday...

And I repeat, how does this morning's MOD parade, or any of the Remembrance Sunday ceremonies which will be held throughout NI this month, constitute "marching through areas they're not wanted in"?

This thread is about the wearing of the Poppy. For you to employ blatant "whataboutery" (i.e. Orange Order Marches) in this debate proves the poverty of your argument.

[Tony Baloney]

cant believe this thread is still going on

POG is extremely offended by all these Unionists wearing poppies even though he is living in england where hardly anyone is wearing a poppy! Work that one out!

[red hander]

'For example, I think I'm right in saying that Harland and Wolff was the only major British shipyard which didn't lose a day's production throughout the entire war. '

Wrong (again): From article in Independent on Sunday March 11 2000 by David McKittrick entitled 'Hammer blow may break an industry that has grown up with Unionist iron in its soul'

'This tough assertiveness (of H&W workers) reached particular heights during the Second World War as the shipyards employed 20,000 men, turning out 140 warships and many merchant vessels.

'While this was an essential part of the war effort, shipyard workers also became known for their readiness to go on strike for higher pay.

'One particular strike was described by Winston Churchill as "shocking" and by the Stormont government as "sabotage" and "a betrayal".

'But when five of the strike leaders were jailed, the entire shipbuilding workforce downed tools until the employers and the government caved in.'

For example, I think I'm right in saying Harland and Wolff was the ONLY major British shipyard which went on STRIKE during the entire war...

Protestant loyalty, eh?  Aye, to the f**king half-crown...

[Evil Genius]

cant believe this thread is still going on

POG is extremely offended by all these Unionists wearing poppies even though he is living in england where hardly anyone is wearing a poppy! Work that one out!

He is also apparently offended from afar by this morning's RIR Parade in Belfast. I home he wasn't anywhere near Shropshire last month...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fAaRdosqwXo

P.S. Is there a better marching tune anywhere in the world than "Killaloe"?

YO!

[pintsofguinness]

EG

You don't get it, do you? People in NI wore Poppies annually before Enniskillen. Since then, however, it has had a particular resonance, especially since Poppy Day has an additional greater significance (two World Wars etc), about which we are reminded, along with the rest of the UK, every year.

Bull! A majority of people wearing Poppies in the North do it as they consider it to be a marker that they are British.  That is the only explanation I can come to as to why today I can walk through an English city and there's very few wearing them whereas if I walked through Belfast I would see considerable more. 
I have no issue with anyone taking part in the commentration or wearing a poppy if it's for the right reason. 

[Evil Genius]

'For example, I think I'm right in saying that Harland and Wolff was the only major British shipyard which didn't lose a day's production throughout the entire war. '

Wrong (again): From article in Independent on Sunday March 11 2000 by David McKittrick entitled 'Hammer blow may break an industry that has grown up with Unionist iron in its soul'

'This tough assertiveness (of H&W workers) reached particular heights during the Second World War as the shipyards employed 20,000 men, turning out 140 warships and many merchant vessels.

'While this was an essential part of the war effort, shipyard workers also became known for their readiness to go on strike for higher pay.

'One particular strike was described by Winston Churchill as "shocking" and by the Stormont government as "sabotage" and "a betrayal".

'But when five of the strike leaders were jailed, the entire shipbuilding workforce downed tools until the employers and the government caved in.'

For example, I think I'm right in saying Harland and Wolff was the ONLY major British shipyard which went on STRIKE during the entire war...

Protestant loyalty, eh?  Aye, to the f**king half-crown...

Belfast/H&W was by no means unique in the UK in seeing workers take industrial action during the war, even in vital industries. For example, the miners went on strike on more than one occasion, prompting the following comments:


"[The strikes in the pits are] worse than if Hitler had bombed Sheffield and all of our communications had been cut.'
(Ernest Bevin, Minister of Labour, 1944)

"Bevin won't climb down, so we'll pull him down."
(South Wales Miner, 1944, on the government's hostility to nationalising the mines)

"Here we were, just about winning the war, and losing our trade union rights. So what the bloody hell had we been fighting for?"
(Trade Unionist, August 1945)
http://www.newstatesman.com/forum_view.php?newTemplate=OpenFullList&newTop=300000026522&newDisplayURN=300000026522

[Evil Genius]

Bull! A majority of people wearing Poppies in the North do it as they consider it to be a marker that they are British.  That is the only explanation I can come to as to why today I can walk through an English city and there's very few wearing them whereas if I walked through Belfast I would see considerable more. 
I have no issue with anyone taking part in the commentration or wearing a poppy if it's for the right reason. 

I've already given you two explanations, other than demonstrating "Britishness", why Poppy-wearing may be more widespread in Ni than GB. (Enniskillen and the wider military tradition).

Personally, i don't give a fcuk whether you accept this or not.

And even if demonstrating Britishness were to be the only reason why they do, I'm not much bothered, either, since as 5ive Times so eloquently put it on another thread, NI is British. And it is not the wearing of British imagery which causes it to be so, nor would the denial of British imagery cause it to cease to be so.

So if even Bart Simpson can get it, so why can't you?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wrxy_irish_fun
(1 minute and 8 seconds in)

[red hander]

'Belfast/H&W was by no means unique in the UK in seeing workers take industrial action during the war, even in vital industries.'

That's some U-turn EG, I'd check those tyres for the legal thread levels

[pintsofguinness]

At least you finally admit it EG, it's sad that you use the deaths of so many, whether it be in the trenchs or in Enniskillen to play silly little sectarian games.

[Rossfan]

I was flicking through the letter pages on ITV a few days. Girl Aloud were being interviewed on the telly last week or the beginning of the week. They all had their Poppies on, except Nadine. Apparently she didn't want to wear it. Some bloke from Carrickfergus was writing, complaining that she should have to show her Britishness.

What a load of bollox.
That reminds me of Rossfan when talking about the Irish language.

It's very much alive and if you want to be considered a proper Irishman you should learn a bit of it instead of the oul Seóinín/Unionist attitude of get rid of all that oul Irishness.

Maith thú, Rossfan. Is mór an náire ort.

Ar do rothar a Hardy agus fág mise as an rud seo.
Ní bheidh mise ag caitheamh poppy agus má fheicim aon Seóiníneach timpeall na h-áite seo ag caitheamh ceann............
A symbol of  British Imperialistic Pompous Bombastic Triumphalist militarism is all it is.

[MW]

The unionists in Northern ireland use it as some sort of marker, a badge of identity. 

Some unionists.

I haven't come across a poppy "seller" this year. Have made a donation online and had dedicated a poppy (for the field at the Menin Gate) to two great-uncles from the Royal Irish Rifles, who died in 1917 aged 17.

I would wear a poppy as an act of commemoration. I certainly don't flaunt it in anyone's face. I see the donation as the main thing in any case.