The Heineken Cup Thread

[DennistheMenace]

I'd throw them out of the HC.

[Eastern_Pride]

I'd throw them out of the HC.

Pity no one cares.

[ludermor]

Title changed.

Have absolute no sympathy for Richards, once a cheat always a cheat, integrity is very important and by cheating in the professional game you are cheating fellow professionals and denying them opportunity to make money in what is a very short career. Williams suspension reduction is right as he was just the patsy.

While i agree with all of that Dinny was there not noises that it was common enough practice for this carry on? Im nearly sure i read about lads getting cut on purpose late on in games? Didnt one of the commentators say during the lfirst ions game that Vickery should have been cut early on and subbed? iS it just a case of Rugby finally stamping this out once and for all or did i just hear things?

[Gnevin]

Title changed.

Have absolute no sympathy for Richards, once a cheat always a cheat, integrity is very important and by cheating in the professional game you are cheating fellow professionals and denying them opportunity to make money in what is a very short career. Williams suspension reduction is right as he was just the patsy.

While i agree with all of that Dinny was there not noises that it was common enough practice for this carry on? Im nearly sure i read about lads getting cut on purpose late on in games? Didnt one of the commentators say during the lfirst ions game that Vickery should have been cut early on and subbed? iS it just a case of Rugby finally stamping this out once and for all or did i just hear things?

Not hearing things but their are a few differences which makes this case not worse but one they couldn't ignore. Most times a team will be out of subs and will "create" a blood  injury  to get a player on to replace a tired player  for a few minutes and it wouldn't be so tactical

1) The wink
2) The use of fake blood
3) The attempted cover up

[Main Street]

There were questions over this blood sub by Leicester in their HC semi final, as the journalist dryly observed with his description
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/may/03/leicester-cardiff-blues-heineken-crane

"The tournament's first penalty shoot-out beckoned as Leicester manoeuvred the replaced scrum-half Julien Dupuy back on, the centre Dan Hipkiss having specks of blood in his hair, and the Blues brought on the former Wales fly-half Ceri Sweeney"

[Declan]

Williams claimed Quins pressure to limit appeal

Tom Williams claimed he was offered a new four-year contract plus benefits by Harlequins in return for a limited appeal solely against the length of his 12-month ban incurred after the 'Bloodgate' scandal. He told an ERC appeals committee last week that chief executive Mark Evans warned him against a full disclosure and chairman Charles Jillings asked him to focus "on the sanction and not the findings of fact".

Williams was initially handed a 12-month ban - reduced to four months after appeal - for chewing a fake blood capsule during the April 12th game against Leinster in the Heineken Cup.

Following the initial ban, Williams said Evans told him the club could face expulsion from the Heineken Cup if he proceeded with a full disclosure appeal.

Williams said he had initially accepted the offer of a new contract - and even admitted demanding even more from the club - but ultimately decided to tell all during last Monday's hearing.

Williams's testimony, which was disclosed today, led to director of rugby Dean Richards being banned from coaching for three years and physio Steph Brennan being handed a two-year suspension, while the club were fined just under €297,000.

The appeals committee decided they did not have any jurisdiction in the case of club doctor Wendy Chapman, although Williams told the committee in his evidence that she had deliberately cut his mouth in order to cover up the offence.

The 25-year-old's testimony was made public when European Rugby Cup published the full written decision of the appeals committee, which convened for almost 14 hours in Glasgow a week and a half ago.

It exposes the degree of pressure Williams felt he was under from the likes of Richards, Evans and Jillings to not reveal the full details behind the series of events.

The wing explained he had met Jillings on the morning of August 5th, around two weeks after deciding to appeal his 12-month ban.

Williams said: "He started by apologising to me for the position I had been placed in. I am sure he was sincere.

"Charles then laid out a compensation offer to me. This consisted of payment of my salary while I was suspended, an assurance that I would be selected for the team on merit once my suspension ended, a two-year contract extension, a testimonial, a three-year employment opportunity with the club after I retired from playing, and an assurance that he would take a direct interest in my post-rugby career.

"He asked me what I was planning to do in relation to an appeal.

"Charles told me that he thought I should appeal, but that it should be on a limited basis focusing on the sanction and not the findings of fact.

"Charles said that if the ERC decided to convene a personal hearing and questions were asked of me that might incriminate other parties, I could simply refuse to answer those questions."

Williams revealed he had gone back to Quins demanding an apology, a contract extension on improved terms and that the club pay off the mortgage on his house.

He said Quins made a counter-offer which included an apology, a new-four year contract and extra holidays.

During his testimony, Williams detailed a conversation he said he had with Evans in which the chief executive tried to convince him not to tell the truth to the appeals committee.

"In that meeting, Mark was very friendly but outlined the consequences of my appealing on a full-disclosure basis," Williams said.

"He told me this route could result in the club being expelled from the Heineken Cup, they would lose sponsors, that Wendy and Steph could be struck off for life and would in turn sue the club. He said it would be worse than relegation. I assumed he was speaking in a financial sense."

Williams also claimed his team-mates had encouraged him not to tell the whole truth, while he said he and Chapman had initially decided to say he had cut his own lip in order to protect her.

He insisted Chapman had been placed in an "extremely hostile and tense environment" when he arrived in the physio room having faked injury to allow specialist kicker Nick Evans to return to the field.

Williams revealed the pressure he felt he was under to lie before July's original disciplinary hearing.

Explaining he was asked to sign a statement to back up the club's version of events, he said: "The way in which Dean presented it to me made it very clear that I had no real choice in the matter, and that I was expected to sign the club's statement and to toe the club's line."

Although Richards denied in the hearing that the player had no choice, Williams insisted in his testimony he had never felt able to challenge Richards' authority.

He claimed the Leinster game was the first time he had been asked to fake a blood injury and that he had no prior knowledge of blood capsules being used in that way.

Richards and Brennan have admitted employing the tactic on previous occasions.

Williams said he felt under pressure to comply to Richards's wishes, adding: "If I had refused to bite the capsule, Dean would have seen that I had disobeyed him and might refuse to play me again. This could have spelt the end of my career at Harlequins.

"And how would I face my team-mates if my refusal to come off was blamed by Dean for losing us the game?"

Quins chief Evans today declined to comment on Williams's testimony, saying he had yet to read the appeals committee's full written judgement.

[ludermor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/my_club/gloucester/8247788.stm
Gloucester set for financial loss 

Ken Nottage has been at Gloucester since 1999
Gloucester Rugby is set to show a loss for last season, managing director Ken Nottage has revealed.

The news is a contrast to the 2007-08 season when Gloucester were the only Premiership club to make a profit.

Nottage told BBC Gloucestershire: "We are technically still in a recession and the areas that were hit most were attendances and the corporate market.

"At best the year to May 31 will be a break even position, but it's more likely to be a small loss."

During 2007-08 the opening of the club's new main stand increased capacity by more than a third, helping Gloucester to make a profit of about £650,000.

But last season they were knocked out of the Heineken Cup in the pool stages and Nottage said that had a significant impact.

"Had we progressed as we hoped to, that small loss would have been a small profit" he said.

Nottage also admitted the club would not look to develop the Shed side of the ground until attendances improved.

Sunday's clash with Bath attracted a crowd of just under 13,000 - more than 3,000 short of Kingsholm's capacity.

"We need to be seeing six or seven sell-outs a season before there is a demand to develop further," added Nottage.

"Arguably, it's down to the fans. When the demand is demonstrated, we'll be ready to develop the stadium."


Not one of the clubs in the premiership will break even this yea, how the f**k can they sustain that?? Do they all have backers that pump money into the clubs?
Does anyone know how the irish provinces fair out these days?

[Dinny Breen]

Well that was a brutal week-end for Irish rugby. 3 sides all well beaten by French oppostion. The root of all three's problems lie in the scrum, we're producing good back 5 players but our front row players just aren't good enough and the provinces are left in a catch 22 position to compete now they need to import foreign talent which has a knock-on with the national team. Scotland and Australia had this same problem but after three years of pain they now both have excellent front rows so much that I make the Aussies favs for the World Cup.

We need short term pain for long term gain but as the IRFU are smashed I can't see this happening to the detriment of the game as they waste another 300K on a South African or Kiwi prop.

[tyroneboi]

I'm definitely not an expert on the scrum but these days there seems to be too much emphasis placed on a prop being good in the loose almost leading to neglecting his ability in the scrum. Without parity in the set piece then you are gonna come unstuck at some stage. I'm a fan of Cian Healy but all the talk I hear of him is what a fantastic rugby player he is in terms of his hands, work in the loose etc. Look at Julian White at Leciester - he doesnt offer much away from the set piece but by God does he make sure he holds his end of the scrum up and more. Its maybe time coaching got back to the basics and work on technique at scrum time. Heard yesterday that the Leinster pack was actually heavier than the Toulouse pack which actually proves that scrum is mainly down to technical ability. Maybe the losses this weekend will be a blessing in disguise in many ways in that it will show the IRFU that forking out the big money for international players is not helping the front row situation. Thats my 2 pennies worth anyway probably talking a whole load of crap!!

[Main Street]

I only saw the Munster game, where the lineouts were as poor as the scrums.
Does a scrum creak under an onslought of muscle or is there a more than a bit of technique involved?

At 1/2 time I thought Munster were looking solid but Biarritz thoroughly deserved to power clear in the 2nd half, with or without Warwick's wanderlust. A Munster of old would never have stood down in that game. The old fire has faded and sad to see them getting mauled around the pitch, but all in context of some 10 or 12 great years at the top in European rugby.

Isn't it about time that semi finals be in a neutral place?
I can't think of another European competition where such an advantage is handed on a plate to a semi finalist.

[Dinny Breen]

A technically good tight-head will always have the edge on an equally technical loose-head because he is by nature generally heavier, 20 stone coming down on your neck is still 20 stone. Tight-head is one of the best paid positions in Europpean Rugby hence the likes of Carl Haymens, CJVL and Botha etc all plying their trade over here. Healy is probably 8 years from his prime, his scrummaging this year has been poor but he will learn from it.

[Donnellys Hollow]

I think what stood out this weekend was how lacklustre some of the longer established Irish internationals were. The likes of BOD, Darcy, Horgan, ROG, Wallace, DOC, Hayes and Horan all underperformed. These guys have been on the go since 2000 and it's going to be hard for them to reach the heights they were hitting three or four years ago. Although we didn't land the slam thanks to Vincent Clerc - I still think the best rugby I ever seen from an Irish team came during that 06-07 season. The reluctance of Eddie O'Sullivan to broaden the national squad and blood new players will come back to haunt us in the coming years. In fairness to BOD, ROG, DOC and Wallace today though, they all haven't had a proper break in about a year and a half because of their involvement with the Lions last summer. I fear for us Down Under in the summer because I think most of our main players need a proper break from the game for a few months.

The front-row is a massive problem area and all the provinces are culpable. For years they've all used stop gap imports instead of encouraging young Irish talent - Pucciarello, Stan Wright, Will Green, Robbie Kempson, Ollie Le Roux, Van Der Linde, Robbie Morris, Rod Moore, BJ Botha, Brugnaut, Gordon McIlwham. The likes of Peter Bracken and Mike Ross were starting for Wasps and Harlequins but they were deemed surplus to requirements over here. Tony Buckley has all the physical attributes but no one ever got a hold of him and coached him proper technique - I always think he'd have taken over from the Bull long ago if he his move to Bath hadn't fallen through. Darragh Hurley looked useful when he got a run of games a few years ago but he seems to have fallen completely off the radar since - why wasn't he shipped to Connacht for a few years along with Cronin to get some gametime? Healy is talented but he has to be given time to develop. Hopefully Timmy Ryan will come through at Toulon but apart from those few, our options look very thin on the ground.

[INDIANA]

A technically good tight-head will always have the edge on an equally technical loose-head because he is by nature generally heavier, 20 stone coming down on your neck is still 20 stone. Tight-head is one of the best paid positions in Europpean Rugby hence the likes of Carl Haymens, CJVL and Botha etc all plying their trade over here. Healy is probably 8 years from his prime, his scrummaging this year has been poor but he will learn from it.

Leinster rugby team spend far too much time out and about. Thats 50% of their problem. and its no bullshit. I've seen some who shall remain nameless on the razzle 4 days before an important game.

[INDIANA]

I think what stood out this weekend was how lacklustre some of the longer established Irish internationals were. The likes of BOD, Darcy, Horgan, ROG, Wallace, DOC, Hayes and Horan all underperformed. These guys have been on the go since 2000 and it's going to be hard for them to reach the heights they were hitting three or four years ago. Although we didn't land the slam thanks to Vincent Clerc - I still think the best rugby I ever seen from an Irish team came during that 06-07 season. The reluctance of Eddie O'Sullivan to broaden the national squad and blood new players will come back to haunt us in the coming years. In fairness to BOD, ROG, DOC and Wallace today though, they all haven't had a proper break in about a year and a half because of their involvement with the Lions last summer. I fear for us Down Under in the summer because I think most of our main players need a proper break from the game for a few months.

The front-row is a massive problem area and all the provinces are culpable. For years they've all used stop gap imports instead of encouraging young Irish talent - Pucciarello, Stan Wright, Will Green, Robbie Kempson, Ollie Le Roux, Van Der Linde, Robbie Morris, Rod Moore, BJ Botha, Brugnaut, Gordon McIlwham. The likes of Peter Bracken and Mike Ross were starting for Wasps and Harlequins but they were deemed surplus to requirements over here. Tony Buckley has all the physical attributes but no one ever got a hold of him and coached him proper technique - I always think he'd have taken over from the Bull long ago if he his move to Bath hadn't fallen through. Darragh Hurley looked useful when he got a run of games a few years ago but he seems to have fallen completely off the radar since - why wasn't he shipped to Connacht for a few years along with Cronin to get some gametime? Healy is talented but he has to be given time to develop. Hopefully Timmy Ryan will come through at Toulon but apart from those few, our options look very thin on the ground.

Hurlley got a serious eye injury DH won't be back till next season .Lucky he didn't lose it.

The best young prop is Hagan at Connacht. But he needs coaching now.

[Celt_Man]

A technically good tight-head will always have the edge on an equally technical loose-head because he is by nature generally heavier, 20 stone coming down on your neck is still 20 stone. Tight-head is one of the best paid positions in Europpean Rugby hence the likes of Carl Haymens, CJVL and Botha etc all plying their trade over here. Healy is probably 8 years from his prime, his scrummaging this year has been poor but he will learn from it.

Leinster rugby team spend far too much time out and about. Thats 50% of their problem. and its no bullshit. I've seen some who shall remain nameless on the razzle 4 days before an important game.

Absolute nonsense....   

Sure ladyboys don't drink