The Heineken Cup Thread

[Hound]

Super performance by Ulster. Northampton aren't the team they used to be, but that doesn't take away from Ulster's play. I thought Trimble in particular was excellent.

Disappointing in the end from Leinster. If their lineout had held up, they'd probably have come away with the draw which would have left winning the group as an attainable objective. Now they are pretty much playing for one of the best runners up places. 3 wins should get that, but one mistake and they're out. And even then 3 wins will mean an away quarter-final against a top seed.

[lfdown2]

Wondering if any of ye can help, I'm home for christmas and I see Ulster are playing Glasgow on the weekend of the 12th of January and wouldn't mind heading to it. Though tickets aren't on sale (I suspect because a firm date has not been set) any idea when the date will be set and when tickets would go on sale?

Anyone?

[ormond lad]

Wondering if any of ye can help, I'm home for christmas and I see Ulster are playing Glasgow on the weekend of the 12th of January and wouldn't mind heading to it. Though tickets aren't on sale (I suspect because a firm date has not been set) any idea when the date will be set and when tickets would go on sale?

Anyone?

usually the date and time of round 5/6 fixtures are set the monday/tuesday after round 4. so fixtures will be released by the ERC next monday or tuesday when the pools are decided and tv companies can pick which games they want to show and which games are the big games as to quarter final spots to put at prime time for tv

[lfdown2]

Wondering if any of ye can help, I'm home for christmas and I see Ulster are playing Glasgow on the weekend of the 12th of January and wouldn't mind heading to it. Though tickets aren't on sale (I suspect because a firm date has not been set) any idea when the date will be set and when tickets would go on sale?

Anyone?

usually the date and time of round 5/6 fixtures are set the monday/tuesday after round 4. so fixtures will be released by the ERC next monday or tuesday when the pools are decided and tv companies can pick which games they want to show and which games are the big games as to quarter final spots to put at prime time for tv

Cheers,

[Main Street]

I thought I heard on the sports news that Mike McCarthy was poached by Leinster from ConnACHT, effective immediately, but it's an end of the season move.

Not that I wouldn't put it past Leinster to poach the best Connacht players in mid-season, if they could. 

[Dinny Breen]

Connacht have nine former Leinster Senior or Leinster U20s in their senior squad: Matt Healy, Kyle Tonetti, Dave McSharry, Paul O'Donohoe, Davey Moore, Mick Kearney, Dave Gannon, Jason Harris-Wright and Nathan White.

[rodney trotter]

Connacht have nine former Leinster Senior or Leinster U20s in their senior squad: Matt Healy, Kyle Tonetti, Dave McSharry, Paul O'Donohoe, Davey Moore, Mick Kearney, Dave Gannon, Jason Harris-Wright and Nathan White.

Ian Keatley was with Leinster but couldn't make the break through and switched to Connacht and his form then got him a move to Munster. Eric Elwood seems to get the best out of young talent, Tiernan O Halloran looks a very promising player. Elwood will be a big loss for Connacht at the end of the season.

[Hardy]

How does this work? Does the IRFU, who own the player contracts, as I understand it, not have rules about transfers to prevent this kind of stuff? The stronger sides are allowed to treat Connacht as an academy, or a feeder club for themselves, thereby perpetuating their superiority over Connacht by cutting all development of talent there off at the root.

[Dinny Breen]

This isn't the GAA it's professional rugby, Mike McCarthy is English born of Irish heritage, he has played for Wasps, Newcastle and Connacht. He is now 31 and is entitled to get the best deal for him and this will be close to the last contract, Leinster offered him a better deal than Connacht. He is quite right to take it as he will be better coached, has a better chance of winning something and will help provide greater security for his young family.

If he didn't join Leinster odds are he would have joined a French club.

[AZOffaly]

How does that work Dinny? I know some of the contracts at least are 'central' contracts, but how are they actually structured? Are you contracted to the IRFU who decide where you play, or is your contract to Leinster, Munster or whoever?

If the contracts are with the individual provinces, is there a limit on who can move where, or is it simple marked demand? i.e. if Leinster can afford to pay X euro for Craig Gilroy for example, are they free to make an approach to him?

[screenexile]

How does that work Dinny? I know some of the contracts at least are 'central' contracts, but how are they actually structured? Are you contracted to the IRFU who decide where you play, or is your contract to Leinster, Munster or whoever?

If the contracts are with the individual provinces, is there a limit on who can move where, or is it simple marked demand? i.e. if Leinster can afford to pay X euro for Craig Gilroy for example, are they free to make an approach to him?

Just while we're on the subject of Leinster and wingers, what is the story with Luke Fitzgerald?

[Hardy]

This isn't the GAA it's professional rugby, Mike McCarthy is English born of Irish heritage, he has played for Wasps, Newcastle and Connacht. He is now 31 and is entitled to get the best deal for him and this will be close to the last contract, Leinster offered him a better deal than Connacht. He is quite right to take it as he will be better coached, has a better chance of winning something and will help provide greater security for his young family.

If he didn't join Leinster odds are he would have joined a French club.

No need for the condescension, Dinny. I am aware that it is rugby and not GAA.

I was simply asking whether the IRFU had a policy on transfers. The current situation seems to put Connacht at a disadvantage and perpetuate their status as underdogs. The IRFU has control of contracts and thus could prevent this apparently unfair treatment of one of their units. So if anyone has a civil answer ...

[Main Street]

I was curious once upon a time to find out about this central contract business on the IRFU site, but in vain.
The masons are more transparent

The IRFU contracts the international standard players like O'Driscoll for varying amounts of cash.
All the contract players are somehow spread out amongst the 3 provinces, Connacht do not benefit from this directly but have another agreed  system with the IRFU.
After that, comes so many questions.

McCarthy, is a free agent of sorts with no irfu contract, he can choose where to go, depending on his contract with Connacht of course.

[Dinny Breen]

How does that work Dinny? I know some of the contracts at least are 'central' contracts, but how are they actually structured? Are you contracted to the IRFU who decide where you play, or is your contract to Leinster, Munster or whoever?

If the contracts are with the individual provinces, is there a limit on who can move where, or is it simple marked demand? i.e. if Leinster can afford to pay X euro for Craig Gilroy for example, are they free to make an approach to him?

The thing to note about Irish Rugby is that the National Team account for 80% of revenues generated by the IRFU but only account for 25% of the costs. This is the key factor in all decisions, the welfare of the National Team is the bottom line. So the Professional Provinces who generate less than 20% of the IRFU revenue but account for 40% of the costs would not be able to exist without substantial funding. The IRFU spend in excess of €31m on professional costs, this would include all coaching costs of the Irish and Provincial teams.

Now the central contract thing is a weird one, I think there is approx 22 in circulation with the likes of POC and BOD earning in excess of €300k a year. The Player Advisory Group (PAG) decide what players get contracts based on the needs of the National team and not the provinces. The benefits of a central contract to the Provinces is that it it not included in their wage budget meaning in theory the more centrals contracts in their squad the more they can spend on other players. So in Leinster's case having Heaslip, Healy, Ross, O'Brien (I think), Sexton, D'Arcy (unbelievably got 2 year ext this year) BOD and Kearney on central contracts aligned to commercial revenues (16K+ season tickets, sponsorships, merchandising etc) means they can offer non-CC players better deals hence Mike McCarthy will get a much better deal at Leinster. The PAG can stop non-Irish eligible players from been signed and will also try and dictate where returning Irish players should sign for, i.e. you had the PAG pushing for Bowe to sign for Munster and instead we now have 3 Irish wingers playing for Ulster.

If Mike McCarthy had gotten a Central Contract he probably would have stayed at Connacht but as Ireland already have 3 centrally contracted 2nd rows they were never going to give out a 4th. It's a very flawed system but I'm not sure if the alternative completely empower the Provinces is any better.

[Dinny Breen]

This isn't the GAA it's professional rugby, Mike McCarthy is English born of Irish heritage, he has played for Wasps, Newcastle and Connacht. He is now 31 and is entitled to get the best deal for him and this will be close to the last contract, Leinster offered him a better deal than Connacht. He is quite right to take it as he will be better coached, has a better chance of winning something and will help provide greater security for his young family.

If he didn't join Leinster odds are he would have joined a French club.

No need for the condescension, Dinny. I am aware that it is rugby and not GAA.

I was simply asking whether the IRFU had a policy on transfers. The current situation seems to put Connacht at a disadvantage and perpetuate their status as underdogs. The IRFU has control of contracts and thus could prevent this apparently unfair treatment of one of their units. So if anyone has a civil answer ...

God your sensitive today, I was just making the point that Professional Sport without salary cap guidelines can be dog eat dog where the rich nearly always prevail. I have elaborated somewhat above, in that the IRFU do not have a internal transfer policy but everything is suppose to based on the National Team so in Mike McCarthy's instance they would be happier to see him play for Leinster (higher standard, better coaching etc). While I appreciate the perpetuation of that and can see why long term it would be better for Irish to really develop Connacht as a force the IRFU tend to view short-term as they need Irish rugby to be successful now.

I stated the GAA because although somewhat flawed they do have a transfer system that is somewhat kinder to the smaller clubs although that would vary from county to county.