The Heineken Cup Thread

[AZOffaly]

Well that was another great finish in Thomond Park, but that Munster team is definitely one in transition. In transition in terms of players, and also in terms of playing style. They are a long way off the likes of Leinster at this point, and I can't see them getting out of this group.

Dinny, you'll be glad to hear the bandwagon is definitely grinding to a halt. I know it was an early kick off, but it was a beautiful autumn day, and there were empty seats around the place. If it had been pissing raining, I'd say it would have been at best 3/4 full, because the ticket vans were doing a great trade in last minute buyers. For those vans even to be there for a Heineken game is, in itself, a sign.

That said, I think Munster's bandwagon has translated into a good few thousand die hards, and I expect that rump to remain, such as myself. Then no doubt the reinforcements will arrive when Munster look like they have a chance of winning things again.

[Declan]

Liked this photo from the weekend - David Rushida with the Munster boys

[AZOffaly]

Liked this photo from the weekend - David Rushida with the Munster boys

Yeah, he was introduced yesterday. His coach is a Cork man.

[Dinny Breen]

Well that was another great finish in Thomond Park, but that Munster team is definitely one in transition. In transition in terms of players, and also in terms of playing style. They are a long way off the likes of Leinster at this point, and I can't see them getting out of this group.

Dinny, you'll be glad to hear the bandwagon is definitely grinding to a halt. I know it was an early kick off, but it was a beautiful autumn day, and there were empty seats around the place. If it had been pissing raining, I'd say it would have been at best 3/4 full, because the ticket vans were doing a great trade in last minute buyers. For those vans even to be there for a Heineken game is, in itself, a sign.

That said, I think Munster's bandwagon has translated into a good few thousand die hards, and I expect that rump to remain, such as myself. Then no doubt the reinforcements will arrive when Munster look like they have a chance of winning things again.

It was the trimmings that came with the bandwagon, "Best fans in the World". "The Brave and the Faithful" etc etc that would do my nut in, bums on seats though are essential for any professional team and Irish rugby needs those bums.

Munster are paying the price for neglecting their academy, I will be surprised if they qualify out of their group, it will take at least a year before we see a truly competitive Munster side playing good rugby.

For what it's worth i think the 8 quarter-finalists are already known - Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens, Harlequins, Ulster, Leinster, Leicester...

[AZOffaly]

Well that was another great finish in Thomond Park, but that Munster team is definitely one in transition. In transition in terms of players, and also in terms of playing style. They are a long way off the likes of Leinster at this point, and I can't see them getting out of this group.

Dinny, you'll be glad to hear the bandwagon is definitely grinding to a halt. I know it was an early kick off, but it was a beautiful autumn day, and there were empty seats around the place. If it had been pissing raining, I'd say it would have been at best 3/4 full, because the ticket vans were doing a great trade in last minute buyers. For those vans even to be there for a Heineken game is, in itself, a sign.

That said, I think Munster's bandwagon has translated into a good few thousand die hards, and I expect that rump to remain, such as myself. Then no doubt the reinforcements will arrive when Munster look like they have a chance of winning things again.

It was the trimmings that came with the bandwagon, "Best fans in the World". "The Brave and the Faithful" etc etc that would do my nut in, bums on seats though are essential for any professional team and Irish rugby needs those bums.

Munster are paying the price for neglecting their academy, I will be surprised if they qualify out of their group, it will take at least a year before we see a truly competitive Munster side playing good rugby.

For what it's worth i think the 8 quarter-finalists are already known - Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens, Harlequins, Ulster, Leinster, Leicester...

I think the Brave and the Faithful refers to the players, not the fans I also think they are paying the price for neglecting the academy through Kidney's tenure(s). In fairness to McGahan that is one area he focussed on. I also think it will be at least, at least, a year before they are back as a serious force. However I am hopeful in what I see with regard to the younger lads (Dougall, Sherry, Hanrahan, O'Dea, Barnes, Dave O'Callaghan, Ian Nagle, Duncan Williams, Zebo, Butler, O'Donnell, O'Mahoney, Murray etc) and also in the style that Penney seems to want them to play. The problem with putting this style in is that when it doesn;t work, you get very lateral movement, slow passing, static lines of 'running' etc. The forwards are aggressive again, mostly, which is great to see, but the backs are still a long way from being able to cut opponents to shreds yet. Yesterday i thought it was noticeable how quick the ball was going wide, especially in teh first half. I'd like to see them using Downey in a crash carrier role, with a couple of back rowers at the same craic. Then when you suck in the opposition a bit, fire it out. Zebo, Earls, Howlett and co can all finish, but when you're running against a defensive line that's basically sitting there waiting for you, it requires magic, rather than numbers or lines of running to carve them open. At the moment Munster are running 5 v 5 movements instead of 5 v 4 or 5 v 3, or even 6 v 4 or 3.

[Hound]

For what it's worth i think the 8 quarter-finalists are already known - Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens, Harlequins, Ulster, Leinster, Leicester...

Agree re the 6 winners, and I think its fair to say Leinster are in pole position for a best runners-up (although only if they get a win v Clermont), but the second runners-up spot is wide open.

Wouldnt rule out Munster yet. 10 points v Racing and Edinburgh are almost guaranteed, then 4 or 5 points out of the two games v Saracens would see them on 20/21 points, which would be there or thereabouts in terms of a best runner up spot.

[Dinny Breen]

But a lot of those younger lads aren't that young, their development has been severely stunted and I'm not sure the majority have what it takes to be in a top 8 side in Europe (a place where Munster need to be).  Apart from Hanrahan and O'Mahony I don't see any future Foleys, O'Garas, O'Connells, Wallaces, Stringers etc..

Dougall (23) - Don't think he will be anything more that a Squad player
Sherry (24) -  Potential international
Hanrahan (20) - Future Star
O'Dea (22) - Squad Player
Barnes (23)- Squad Player
Dave O'Callaghan (22) - Squad Player
Ian Nagle (24) - Needs a move
Duncan Williams (26) - Just not good enough
Zebo (22) - He's getting better, good player and deserves to start in the Ai
Butler (22) - Squad Player
O'Donnell (25) - Is he even a squad player?
O'Mahoney (23) - Not a fan to be honest - earning international honours too soon but has potential
Murray (23) -  Inconsistent at the moment but still the best scrum-half in Ireland

I'd like to see them using Downey in a crash carrier role, with a couple of back rowers at the same craic. Then when you suck in the opposition a bit, fire it out. Zebo, Earls, Howlett and co can all finish, but when you're running against a defensive line that's basically sitting there waiting for you, it requires magic, rather than numbers or lines of running to carve them open. At the moment Munster are running 5 v 5 movements instead of 5 v 4 or 5 v 3, or even 6 v 4 or 3.

I know what are you saying but you need to be careful, Munster are trying to playing heads-up rugby and identify where the space is, from watching them it's a bit obvious that the players are not sure of how to implement this and are going lateral to early, it will take time for them to learn. Munster have always played within a very rigid structure, keep it tight up front, attack narrow, recycle, attack narrow, kick to corner or up in the air, bring up disciplined line chase, force error or penalty and repeat. But rugby has evolved and teams were seeing Munster as an easy opponent to play against - defend narrow, commit bodies to the ruck - force turnover etc etc. The balance for Munster needs to be right, they in my opinion are missing David Wallace more than one else, brilliant on the ball but brilliant off it in terms of his effectiveness in the tackle and his pure strength at ruck time. Munster are torn between years of patterned rugby as opposed to the now more heads up approach it will come but will probably need the retirement of O'Gara and to lesser extent O'Connell to truly evolve.

[AZOffaly]

I think you are right about the pattern of play, and sure hopefully we'll see it develop. I think you might be a bit hard on some of the lads on the list thought. They might not be top notch, but they are better than what was coming out of the academy 3 or 4 years ago.

I saw Duncan Williams a couple of times this season, and I think he's not as poor as you might think. His speed from ruck to ruck is very impressive, and he can generate very quick ball. Not nearly as strong as Murray, but he's a decent change of pace.

[Dinny Breen]

For what it's worth i think the 8 quarter-finalists are already known - Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens, Harlequins, Ulster, Leinster, Leicester...

Agree re the 6 winners, and I think its fair to say Leinster are in pole position for a best runners-up (although only if they get a win v Clermont), but the second runners-up spot is wide open.

Wouldnt rule out Munster yet. 10 points v Racing and Edinburgh are almost guaranteed, then 4 or 5 points out of the two games v Saracens would see them on 20/21 points, which would be there or thereabouts in terms of a best runner up spot.

Maybe but I'm struggling to be optimistic about Munster at home to Saracens, it's the kind of game Saracens will relish. Wouldn't rule out RM either, if their interested they could well get 10 points against Edinburgh leaving the final group games in that pool very interesting.

[Dinny Breen]

I think you are right about the pattern of play, and sure hopefully we'll see it develop. I think you might be a bit hard on some of the lads on the list thought. They might not be top notch, but they are better than what was coming out of the academy 3 or 4 years ago.

I saw Duncan Williams a couple of times this season, and I think he's not as poor as you might think. His speed from ruck to ruck is very impressive, and he can generate very quick ball. Not nearly as strong as Murray, but he's a decent change of pace.

I'm not harsh AZ, if Munster want to be top 8 in Europe a lot of those players won't get them there or keep them there either. Duncan Williams is 26, compare him to Kieran Marmion 20 playing for Connacht, I can only see one of them playing for Ireland...

[Olaf]

For what it's worth i think the 8 quarter-finalists are already known - Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens, Harlequins, Ulster, Leinster, Leicester...

Agree re the 6 winners, and I think its fair to say Leinster are in pole position for a best runners-up (although only if they get a win v Clermont), but the second runners-up spot is wide open.

Wouldnt rule out Munster yet. 10 points v Racing and Edinburgh are almost guaranteed, then 4 or 5 points out of the two games v Saracens would see them on 20/21 points, which would be there or thereabouts in terms of a best runner up spot.

They have already lost to Racing away and four tries against Edinburgh away is not a given.

[NAG1]

Anyone think that the standard of the games seems to be well down this year, as does the level of individual player skill. The amount of basic mistakes in the matches has been unreal.

[AZOffaly]

For what it's worth i think the 8 quarter-finalists are already known - Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Saracens, Harlequins, Ulster, Leinster, Leicester...

Agree re the 6 winners, and I think its fair to say Leinster are in pole position for a best runners-up (although only if they get a win v Clermont), but the second runners-up spot is wide open.

Wouldnt rule out Munster yet. 10 points v Racing and Edinburgh are almost guaranteed, then 4 or 5 points out of the two games v Saracens would see them on 20/21 points, which would be there or thereabouts in terms of a best runner up spot.

They have already lost to Racing away and four tries against Edinburgh away is not a given.

He means 5 points v Racing at home, and 5 points v Edinburgh away, + 5 points v Saracens out of 10 would make them be on 20 points. They have 6 points already.

[Crete Boom]

But a lot of those younger lads aren't that young, their development has been severely stunted and I'm not sure the majority have what it takes to be in a top 8 side in Europe (a place where Munster need to be).  Apart from Hanrahan and O'Mahony I don't see any future Foleys, O'Garas, O'Connells, Wallaces, Stringers etc..

Dougall (23) - Don't think he will be anything more that a Squad player
Sherry (24) -  Potential international
Hanrahan (20) - Future Star
O'Dea (22) - Squad Player
Barnes (23)- Squad Player
Dave O'Callaghan (22) - Squad Player
Ian Nagle (24) - Needs a move
Duncan Williams (26) - Just not good enough
Zebo (22) - He's getting better, good player and deserves to start in the Ai
Butler (22) - Squad Player
O'Donnell (25) - Is he even a squad player?
O'Mahoney (23) - Not a fan to be honest - earning international honours too soon but has potential
Murray (23) -  Inconsistent at the moment but still the best scrum-half in Ireland

I'd like to see them using Downey in a crash carrier role, with a couple of back rowers at the same craic. Then when you suck in the opposition a bit, fire it out. Zebo, Earls, Howlett and co can all finish, but when you're running against a defensive line that's basically sitting there waiting for you, it requires magic, rather than numbers or lines of running to carve them open. At the moment Munster are running 5 v 5 movements instead of 5 v 4 or 5 v 3, or even 6 v 4 or 3.

I know what are you saying but you need to be careful, Munster are trying to playing heads-up rugby and identify where the space is, from watching them it's a bit obvious that the players are not sure of how to implement this and are going lateral to early, it will take time for them to learn. Munster have always played within a very rigid structure, keep it tight up front, attack narrow, recycle, attack narrow, kick to corner or up in the air, bring up disciplined line chase, force error or penalty and repeat. But rugby has evolved and teams were seeing Munster as an easy opponent to play against - defend narrow, commit bodies to the ruck - force turnover etc etc. The balance for Munster needs to be right, they in my opinion are missing David Wallace more than one else, brilliant on the ball but brilliant off it in terms of his effectiveness in the tackle and his pure strength at ruck time. Munster are torn between years of patterned rugby as opposed to the now more heads up approach it will come but will probably need the retirement of O'Gara and to lesser extent O'Connell to truly evolve.

Agree with most Dinny except the bits in bold. Luke O'Dea was a brilliant underage player and shone through on Ireland teams when there was barely any Munster representation especially in terms of backs! Any time he has played for Munster he has impressed as a back with real pace and finishing ability who is as comfortable at 13 as he is on the wing. Injuries have set him back a bit this season but expect to see him after Christmas in the Rabo games. He'll definitely benifit from the new game plan Munster are trying to play.
     
   Also Butler was a top ball carring no. 8 for Ireland at u20 level and good footballer too straight out of the Anthony Foley mould of Munster backrows. It's widely known that he didn't get on with McGahan for whatever reason ( I was reliable informed it was just a simple personality clash ) and nearly walked last year which would explain why we haven't seen more of him uptil now but he should devlope into the ball carrying no. 8 Munster need over the next couple of seasons. He along with O'Dea are definitely potential future internationals from what I have seen of them albeit playing A and underage rugby!
   
    Tommy O' Donnell is worth his place in the squad and while not a top tier seven he can do a job especially in a scrappy game but his body doesn't match his bravery which could be a problem re injuries. Nagle was always injury prone and this has always held him back since schools rugby so while he has the talent I'm not sure if he'll come good because of this. Also Munster will have a logjam at hooker soon enough which will probably benifit Leinster and hopefully Connacht with James Rael and Niall Scannell two top notch prospects coming through.Dave Kilcoyne (a Connacht man) is a cracking hard nosed ball carrying young loose head but with a good bit to learn at scrum time, He's is definitely one to watch and well capable of taking full advantage of Du Preez's injury. Then there is also Felix Jones to come back from injury so Penny has plenty of young talent to work with.
   
   I do think as you have said they are going to have to be patient with the change in emphasis to heads up runnin rugby and if Penny can marry some fo the traditional mauling forward play to this they'll be onto a winner. I wouldn't be surprised if Rhy Ruddock ends up at Munster next year especially with the talent breathing down his neck from Leinster's underage ranks and he's the type of backrow Munster need at the moment along with Butler and O'Mahoney!
   

[AZOffaly]

I think you are right about the pattern of play, and sure hopefully we'll see it develop. I think you might be a bit hard on some of the lads on the list thought. They might not be top notch, but they are better than what was coming out of the academy 3 or 4 years ago.

I saw Duncan Williams a couple of times this season, and I think he's not as poor as you might think. His speed from ruck to ruck is very impressive, and he can generate very quick ball. Not nearly as strong as Murray, but he's a decent change of pace.

I'm not harsh AZ, if Munster want to be top 8 in Europe a lot of those players won't get them there or keep them there either. Duncan Williams is 26, compare him to Kieran Marmion 20 playing for Connacht, I can only see one of them playing for Ireland...

No doubt, but what I'm saying is that it's better than what was coming out. There's the bones of a decent team there, but as you say the real superstars are missing. Are they going to be local lads, or imports? Leinster are obviously miles and miles ahead in their academy, but they had a huge head start because when Munster were making hay, Leinster were grooming Kearney, Fitzgerald, O'Brien, Sexton, Madigan, et al. Munster will catch up, but it is going to take time. Hopefully Earls, Zebo, Murray and Hanrahan can start the process.