Huns in trouble after song mocking the famine

[updown9194]

I apologise if it made myself seem sanctimonious and all that. I just don't like being called an idiot by someone who displays little intelligent logic in his posts.

[Main Street]

I was more referring to another poster.

Some OWC posters go on a reducer about the WP atmosphere in November 1993,
yet some boast about the complete transformation of the atmosphere at Winsdor Pk.
That's a curious contradiction.
The Irish (unionist)Times carried a banner headline quote  "The Cauldron of Bigotry" from their journalist they sent to report on the match.
As Nell McCafferty said, that was then and this is now.
A thought reflected in one OWC member, "remembering what it used to be like with honesty will help ensure it never becomes like that again".

[full back]

Speaking on November 1993 in Windsor, did I see an advert on TV that the Paddy Keilty play is going to be shown.
Or did I imagine it?

[his holiness nb]

Obviously you have demonstrated basic high intelligence there, Holiness.

My kind like to call it enlightenment 

[Evil Genius]

I was more referring to another poster.

Some OWC posters go on a reducer about the WP atmosphere in November 1993,
yet some boast about the complete transformation of the atmosphere at Winsdor Pk.
That's a curious contradiction.
The Irish (unionist)Times carried a banner headline quote  "The Cauldron of Bigotry" from their journalist they sent to report on the match.
As Nell McCafferty said, that was then and this is now.
A thought reflected in one OWC member, "remembering what it used to be like with honesty will help ensure it never becomes like that again".

If you're referring to me, there's no contradiction at all in considering that the atmosphere 15 years ago was not so bad as some people with an Agenda (Fearon, Nell McCafferty, Roy Keane etc) claim, whilst also asserting that it is still now considerably better as it actually was.

Beyond that, I have no problem with agreeing that some of the songs and chants etc from a section of the home support were disgraceful and brought shame on the rest of the NI support, regardless of how much we might have deplored it.

And in the same spirit of honesty, is it too much to ask that our detractors cease from making entirely false claims 15 years later e.g about Greysteele or Billy Bingham, seemingly out of the same blind hatred which was evident in the "Cauldron" in 1993?

[full back]

Without trawling through posts & Im not shite stirring here....I could be wrong, but did Billy Bingham move his hands like a conductor when facing the crowd?

[updown9194]

If you're referring to me, there's no contradiction at all in considering that the atmosphere 15 years ago was not so bad as some people with an Agenda (Fearon, Nell McCafferty, Roy Keane etc) claim, whilst also asserting that it is still now considerably better as it actually was.

You have an agenda as well. You cannot be trying to say that you are some sort of uninterested passer-by trying to right wrong? You, the Northern Ireland fans, are all more involved in this than McCafferty and Keane.

Beyond that, I have no problem with agreeing that some of the songs and chants etc from a section of the home support were disgraceful and brought shame on the rest of the NI support, regardless of how much we might have deplored it.

And in the same spirit of honesty, is it too much to ask that our detractors cease from making entirely false claims 15 years later e.g about Greysteele or Billy Bingham, seemingly out of the same blind hatred which was evident in the "Cauldron" in 1993?

You don't have the authority to tell us whether these claims were false or not. It is words against words, and given the record of some Northern Irish football fans I know which words I believe.

[nifan]

You don't have the authority to tell us whether these claims were false or not. It is words against words, and given the record of some Northern Irish football fans I know which words I believe.

The problem I and others have is the fact that people blame all of us for the record of some.

[updown9194]

You don't have the authority to tell us whether these claims were false or not. It is words against words, and given the record of some Northern Irish football fans I know which words I believe.

The problem I and others have is the fact that people blame all of us for the record of some.

If that's the problem you won't find it here. I absolutely detest some of the NI fans and their actions but I know that a considerable section of them are gentlemen. I don't enjoy seeing them win-- not because of these kinds of fans or their players (although I hate Healy and Lafferty to be honest) but I just don't appreciate it when half the country makes sure you know about it. I wouldn't begrudge any of you a quietly victorious pint though 

[Evil Genius]

Without trawling through posts & Im not shite stirring here....I could be wrong, but did Billy Bingham move his hands like a conductor when facing the crowd?

Indeed he did. It was after a period of play when NI were getting on top and the whole crowd (as opposed to a section) was beginning to get behind the team.

Some people, who weren't even at the game, have alleged that he was conducting "the Sash". Others that it was "The Billy Boys". In fact, as someone who was there, I'm pretty sure it was when the crowd started to sing "One Team in Ireland".

Anyhow, what such detractors (liars, actually) often omit to add, is that this was Bingham's last game in charge, after over 40 years association with the team, including one World Cup Finals as a player, and two as a manager. Therefore, it was a particularly emotional evening for him, and he was extra determined to depart with a win. But the idea that he would stoop to stirring up sectarian singing in such circumstances is risible, indeeddisgusting.

Don't forget that this was a man whose most distinguished playing feats were achieved under a Catholic manager from Magherafelt (Peter "the Great" Doherty") and whose managerial achievements of his own were fulfilled with the aid of notable Catholic players such as Martin O'Neill and Pat Jennings, both of whom he made Captain on numerous occasions. Moreover, in his private life, he chose a West Belfast Catholic, Gerry Armstrong, to be best man at his Wedding.

Are these the actions of a sectarian bigot? And even if he somehow was, does anyone seriously consider that principled people like O'Neill, Jennings and Armstrong, along with numerous other Catholic players down the years, would have given their all for such a man? It's about as plausible as saying that e.g. Jack Charlton was anti-Irish...

[Main Street]

If you're referring to me, there's no contradiction at all in considering that the atmosphere 15 years ago was not so bad as some people with an Agenda (Fearon, Nell McCafferty, Roy Keane etc) claim, whilst also asserting that it is still now considerably better as it actually was.

Now reducing the level of WP bigotry with a reference to  "some people with an agenda".
Bigotry denial and reducing should be made a hate crime.
At a minimum it is grossly insulting to be thought to be stupid enough to swallow these juvenilile attempts to
backslide.
The IT journalist was not Nell McCafferty. She has nothing to say about that match
The IT sports correspondent for the match was Gerry Moriarty, the northern editor.
The "Cauldron Of Bigotry"  no less.
Also an opinion reflected from most reporters  there that night.

Are you the one that boasted about the "complete transformation of the atmosphere at WP".
I suppose now you have had time to make up another story about that and bore us all senseless with another piece of dishonest prose.

[nifan]

Bigotry denial and reducing should be made a hate crime.

Who decides what is denial and what is debating the truth of the level of bigotry?

Ive never denied windsor had a bigotry problem, and I still dont consider the problem completely eradicated as I have said here before. But I do disagree with some peoples claims.

[Evil Genius]

Bigotry denial and reducing should be made a hate crime.

Who decides what is denial and what is debating the truth of the level of bigotry?

Main Street?

Bigotry denial and reducing should be made a hate crime.

Ive never denied windsor had a bigotry problem, and I still dont consider the problem completely eradicated as I have said here before. But I do disagree with some peoples claims.

Careful, or he'll have you up before the judges in the Hague, before you can say: "Seig Heil!", you vile Nazi apologist and denier, you..

[Evil Genius]

If you're referring to me, there's no contradiction at all in considering that the atmosphere 15 years ago was not so bad as some people with an Agenda (Fearon, Nell McCafferty, Roy Keane etc) claim, whilst also asserting that it is still now considerably better as it actually was.

Now reducing the level of WP bigotry with a reference to  "some people with an agenda".

Even if you choose not to see it, there is a world of difference between "reducing the level of WP bigotry", which I've never done, and making exagerrated, even wholly false claims about the events which did take place. If that concept is too difficult for you to understand, an example of the former would be a section of the crowd e.g. singing the Billy Boys at times during the match, and the whole crowd, or even a section, chanting about Greysteele, which I am certain did not happen at any time.
As for the Agenda, well the established bigot and liar Fearon's Agenda is clear for all to see, and Roy Keane had a book to sell. (I realise now that I mistook your reference to Nell McCafferty, but as a general principle, if she were to swear to me the sun was shining, I'd reach for my umbrella)

Bigotry denial and reducing should be made a hate crime.

Aye, right, whatever you say, Judge Judy.

At a minimum it is grossly insulting to be thought to be stupid enough to swallow these juvenilile attempts to
backslide.

"At a minimum"? Careful, now, you don't want to be accused of "hate crime reducing", or "backsliding", do you?  
Anyhow, how am I insulting you or your intelligence? I am merely presenting my opinion, based on what I have seen and learned of this subject over the years. As such, readers may take it or leave it, their sensibilities and self-worth intact. (And btw, what is "juvenile" about my posts? Or was that just the first casual personal insult - oops, there's that word again - which came to mind?)

The IT journalist was not Nell McCafferty. She has nothing to say about that match

See above.

The IT sports correspondent for the match was Gerry Moriarty, the northern editor.
The "Cauldron Of Bigotry"  no less.

Good Newspaper Headline. And as we all know, three word headlines, composed by someone with a brief to sell newspapers, tell you all you need to know about a story. (Shame he couldn't have found room to incorporate Greysteele, though)

Also an opinion reflected from most reporters  there that night.

Fine. And if you care to reproduce any of those reports on here, I'll gladly give you my opinion on them. What's that? You don't have them to hand? What, you mean you didn't keep them? Never mind, I'm sure you're photographic memory is at least as reliable as, say, an account by Roy Keane in his autobiography...

Are you the one that boasted about the "complete transformation of the atmosphere at WP".

I don't know whether it constitutes "boasting", but I am proud of the changes which have occurred over the last few years, as evidenced and acknowledged by various independent and authoritative organisations such as UEFA and the City of Brussels Fans award. Indeed, as recently as last month, following the visit by 6,000 NI fans to Glasgow for the match against Scotland, it was nice that the Strathclyde Police took the trouble afterwards to write a letter commending the GAWA for their exemplary behaviour. Granted, such behaviour ought to be standard, but considering the capacity for trouble in such circumstances (big crowds, Celtic & Rangers, unbelievable levels of alcohol consumption, Glasgow, Summer holidays etc), it was still good to see. And in any case, it was a whole world away from what might have occurred had such a game been played, say, 15 years ago. Which is only the point I've been trying to get across about "transformation".

I suppose now you have had time to make up another story about that and bore us all senseless with another piece of dishonest prose.

What have I "made up"? And if you are so bored, why are you always so ready to respond? Dishonest? Oh, and "prose". Are you expecting poetry, or something?  

[Main Street]

Who decides what is denial and what is debating the truth of the level of bigotry?

You mean who decides in the standards of denial of bigotry in society.
How long did it take for Holocaust denial to be determined a crime?
So denial of bigotry should be safe for a while longer before any attempt is made to define a standard.

Ive never denied windsor had a bigotry problem, and I still dont consider the problem completely eradicated as I have said here before. But I do disagree with some peoples claims.

I understand that every experience reported on is based on a level of subjectivity, whether it be a player, a journalist or a supporter.  I also know what I heard on the radio, I also compare many varied reports, I think I can smell out by now an exaggerated attempt to revise events rather than some honest acknowledgement. I am not propogating an account that this is what exactly happened and this is the truth.

I am replying to Evil Genius, whose intervention right from the beginning in this thread has demonstrated a silly superficial scornful understanding of a racist song and has further introduced into the argument an indefensible attraction for the bizarre statements of an anti censorship approach for which he has been challenged and silenced.